Is God dead? Atheism finds a market in U.S

[Luke T.]

The title of this topic is the title of a Reuters article (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=inDepthNews&storyID=2006-10-18T120243Z_01_N10351822_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-ATHEISM.xml&pageNumber=1&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage1) published today.

Some relevant parts. Hopefully, some of you will laugh as you read the exerpts because you know exactly where I am going to go with this. ;)

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A fresh wave of atheistic books has hit the market this autumn, some climbing onto best-seller lists in what proponents see as a backlash against the way religion is entwined in politics.

Smiling yet?

Religious polarization is part of many world conflicts, he said, including those involving Israel and Iran, "but it's never discussed. I consider it the story of our time, what religion is doing to us. But there are very few people calling a spade a spade."

I know somebody who called a spade a spade 174 years ago after this phenomena which had happened in Europe...

His "Letter," a blunt 96-page pocket-sized book condensing arguments against belief in quick-fire volleys, appeared on the Times list just ahead of "The God Delusion," by Richard Dawkins, a scientist at Oxford University and long-time atheist.

In addition, Harris' "The End of Faith," a 2004 work which prompted his "Letter" as a response to critics, is holding the No. 13 Times spot among nonfiction paperbacks.

Publishers Weekly said the business has seen "a striking number of impassioned critiques of religion -- any religion, but Christianity in particular," a probably inevitable development given "the super-soaking of American politics and culture with religion in recent years."

Gee, this is sounding really familiar...

Paul Kurtz, founder of the Council for Secular Humanism and publisher of Free Inquiry magazine, said, "The American public is really disturbed about the role of religion in U.S. government policy, particularly with the Bush administration and the breakdown of church-state separation, and secondly with the conflict in the Mideast."

Now, you would think with all that, SOMEBODY would mention Alexis de Tocqueville. But NooooOOOOOOooooo!!!

So I will. BWA-HA-HA-HA!

The unbelievers of Europe attack the Christians as their political opponents, rather than as their religious adversaries; they hate the Christian religion as the opinion of a party, much more than as an error of belief; and they reject the clergy less because they are the representatives of the Divinity than because they are the allies of authority.
In Europe, Christianity has been intimately united to the powers of the earth. Those powers are now in decay, and it is, as it were, buried under their ruins.

Democracy in America (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch17.htm). 1832.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

:xelvis:

[Luke T.]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=909500#post909500

[SteveGrenard]

God is not dead. I discovered him living down the street from me. He looks just like George Burns.

[Darth Rotor]

The title of this topic is the title of a Reuters article (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=inDepthNews&storyID=2006-10-18T120243Z_01_N10351822_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-ATHEISM.xml&pageNumber=1&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage1) published today.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

:xelvis:
This post's title requires the obligatory Nietzsche joke.

"Nietzsche: God is dead."
"God: Nietzsche is dead."
Who you gonna believe? :p

OK, now that the old chestnut is out of the way, we return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

DR

[Foster Zygote]

God is dead, and I have the body to prove it.

Steven

[Luke T.]

God is dead, and I have the body to prove it.

Steven

If God is dead, that makes his art worth ten times as much!

[Marquis de Carabas]

it might just be me, but the phrase "long-time atheist" is amusing.

[Hutch]

This post's title requires the obligatory Nietzsche joke.

"Nietzsche: God is dead."
"God: Nietzsche is dead."
Who you gonna believe? :p

OK, now that the old chestnut is out of the way, we return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

DR

You forgot the final line.

Dead: "Nietzsche is God"

[Darth Rotor]

You forgot the final line.

Dead: "Nietzsche is God"
Eh, you misquoted.

"Deadhead: Garcia is God."

There, fixed. :)

DR

[jnelso99]

http://www.videosift.com/story.php?id=9733

[SirPhilip]

If secular naturalism ever becomes a predominant western cultural outlook, let's hope it has strong ethical foundations. It offers less safeguards from corruption than religiosity does. Convincing Mengele you have a right to live would be harder than a zealot.

[chriswl]

"The unbelievers of Europe attack the Christians as their political opponents, rather than as their religious adversaries; they hate the Christian religion as the opinion of a party, much more than as an error of belief; and they reject the clergy less because they are the representatives of the Divinity than because they are the allies of authority.
In Europe, Christianity has been intimately united to the powers of the earth. Those powers are now in decay, and it is, as it were, buried under their ruins."

Democracy in America. 1832.
That's interesting. I've always assumed that something like that was responsible for contemporary differences in religiousness between the US and Europe.

Christianity is associated with the establishment and tradition in Europe so liberals are likely to be unbelievers. Not so in America. If 90% of a population believe in God then that means most liberals do too.

[Just thinking]

... If 90% of a population believe in God then that means most liberals do too.

Yes ... how many times have Hillary Clinton and other Democrats made their appearances with some sort of religious (Christian) icon showing? (If only for show.)

I think that mostly it is the far-left and far-right segments of our two political parties that seem to dominate how that party is perceived. Funny thing, though -- I would think that they are the ones least likely needing to be pandered to; after all, where are they going to go (in the elections) ... to the other side?

[delphi_ote]

All I can say is:
:yahoo :wave1 :yahoo

[fishbob]

If secular naturalism ever becomes a predominant western cultural outlook, let's hope it has strong ethical foundations. It offers less safeguards from corruption than religiosity does. Convincing Mengele you have a right to live would be harder than a zealot.

What safeguards from corruption?
Religiosity appears to be the corruption playground, the mall of corruption, the corruption superstore.

The ebay of corruption.

[Gravy]

Advance orders now being accepted for my new highly unethical secular naturalist novel Left Behind and Loving It!

[HarryKeogh]

What safeguards from corruption?
Religiosity appears to be the corruption playground, the mall of corruption, the corruption superstore.

The ebay of corruption.

If corruption were crabs religion would be a three-dollar hooker.

[Beerina]

If secular naturalism ever becomes a predominant western cultural outlook, let's hope it has strong ethical foundations. It offers less safeguards from corruption than religiosity does. Convincing Mengele you have a right to live would be harder than a zealot.

Actually, convincing either should be equally difficult. Both are based on religious hatred. Mengele hated Jews because they were Jews, regardless of whether he was Christian or an athiest or agnostic.

In other words, people are killed and lorded over precisely because of religion. These hypothesized "strong ethical foundations" of religion do not appear to exist, except insofar as having a murderous effect historically.

Hell, I don't even see it stopping Christians from forming or working at credit card companies that let you run up 10s of thousands of dollars, then jam the interest rate to 34.99%.

Who would Jesus bomb, anyway? *


* I know the answer. Do Christians?

[Luke T.]

That's interesting. I've always assumed that something like that was responsible for contemporary differences in religiousness between the US and Europe.

Christianity is associated with the establishment and tradition in Europe so liberals are likely to be unbelievers. Not so in America. If 90% of a population believe in God then that means most liberals do too.

However, the common perception is that the Right is trying to get God into politics, the classroom, the town hall front lawn, and in every box of cereal; while the left is perceived trying to get God out and has installed Satan as the lead litigator of the ACLU.

[NotJesus]

Advance orders now being accepted for my new highly unethical secular naturalist novel Left Behind and Loving It!

Great title.

[Freethinker]

"Many, many readers feel utterly isolated in their communities," he said. "They are surrounded by cult members, from their point of view, and are unable to disclose their feelings."

This is why you don't hear more from atheists. We live in a nation dominated by a cult that allows no dissent.

[Darth Rotor]

However, the common perception is that the Right is trying to get God into politics, the classroom, the town hall front lawn, and in every box of cereal; while the left is perceived trying to get God out and has installed Satan as the lead litigator of the ACLU.
So what can I conclude from your comment here? That atheists are by definition Leftists? That the Left is generally atheist?

Where does that put liberal Catholics, like the Liberation Theologists, and the liberal anti war priests of the Viet Nam era?

I am interested in your thoughts on this.

DR

[SirPhilip]

What safeguards from corruption?

In my opinion? Putting teenage mothers who neglect their children to the sword.


Religiosity appears to be the corruption playground, the mall of corruption, the corruption superstore. The ebay of corruption. Without a doubt, it's the most revolting perversion of the most universal and heartfelt of sentiments: man's relationship with God. Secular corruption however has it's own horrors, namely dehumanization and Nietzsche's idealism. While fundamentalists may nauseate you by declaring abortion murder, try arguing with a eugenics consensus who deems your nose aesthetically inferior, and thus your children's right to live.

[Luke T.]

This is why you don't hear more from atheists. We live in a nation dominated by a cult that allows no dissent.

Most of the people I work with are evangelical Christians. We have one atheist. And she is quite well liked and accepted. Even though she goes out of her way to be different by dyeing her hair a different color every week and wearing flourescent clothes.

My co-workers are some of the nicest, generous, kindest people you would ever meet. When a local woman was in dire financial straits with three kids she had out of wedlock, they didn't care. They donated thousands to help her out. I could give you many more such examples.

I announced my own skepticism of all things supernatural/paranormal in the company newsletter my first week on this job. I was met with a lot of smiles and "You ever look into Bigfoot?" and stuff like that. Lots of fun. :)

Sometimes atheists isolate themselves by being overly confrontational, in my opinion. "Hey, your house burned down, where's your God now, bozo?" "Your kid got shot by a maniac, where's your God now, moron?"

Both sides could learn a little about "live and let live".

[SirPhilip]

"Deadhead: Garcia is God." And Carlos Santana is his shaman.

[Darth Rotor]

In my opinion? Putting teenage mothers who neglect their children to the sword.
And the guys who knocked those girls up, kill them too, or just conscript them into the Army, like in the old days?

DR

[money]

Sometimes atheists isolate themselves by being overly confrontational, in my opinion. "Hey, your house burned down, where's your God now, bozo?" "Your kid got shot by a maniac, where's your God now, moron?"

Both sides could learn a little about "live and let live".

Jesus, who would say things like that?

[fishbob]

In my opinion? Putting teenage mothers who neglect their children to the sword.
And this is some kind of safeguard from corruption?

Without a doubt, it's the most revolting perversion of the most universal and heartfelt of sentiments: man's relationship with God. Secular corruption however has it's own horrors, namely dehumanization and Nietzsche's idealism. While fundamentalists may nauseate you by declaring abortion murder, try arguing with a eugenics consensus who deems your nose aesthetically inferior, and thus your children's right to live.

Most universal and heartfelt sentiments? Except for the 'universal part', you might have a point, except for the 'most heartfelt' part.

I suspect that you are talking fundamentalist ideologic extremism. A bit hard to tell, though.

[Dave1001]

Islamic terrorists have done a lot to improve the respectability of atheism in America. It's the straussian power of a foil: when we were fighting communists, atheism was the apothesis of evil. Now that we're fighting fundamentalists atheism is more "the enemy of our enemy".

[Luke T.]

So what can I conclude from your comment here? That atheists are by definition Leftists? That the Left is generally atheist?

No. You can conclude that the common perception is that the Religious Right has been pushing to diminish the line between church and state and are what de Tocqueville was talking about when he saw "the Christian religion as the opinion of a party" and "Christians as their political opponents."

Where does that put liberal Catholics, like the Liberation Theologists, and the liberal anti war priests of the Viet Nam era?

I imagine the influence of anti-war priests from more than 30 years ago on the the current rise in popularity of atheists is pretty neglible.

When you think of the term "Religious Right", what crosses your mind? How often have you thought about the Religious Right since the Republican Party has taken power of Congress and the White House?

How often have you thought about the Religious Left? Is there even such an expression in regular use?

(Just for fun, I googled "Religious Right": 6,400,000 results. "Religious Left": 649,000 results. Almost 10:1 ratio!)

The Religious Right "has been intimately united to the powers of the earth" under the Republican Party.

[Luke T.]

Islamic terrorists have done a lot to improve the respectability of atheism in America. It's the straussian power of a foil: when we were fighting communists, atheism was the apothesis of evil. Now that we're fighting fundamentalists atheism is more "the enemy of our enemy".

I have said in the past, and still believe, that the Middle East is about 400 years behind the West with respect to separation of Church and State, and stands as a vivid living example to the Religious Right in America to the hazards. We don't need to look to the past to see the dangers of not keeping Church and State separate. We just need to look at the nearest newspaper. And yet it seems like the Islamic fundamentalist influence on the governments of the Middle East is exactly what is driving the RR toward the same errors. It is a Holy War.

[Luke T.]

I guess what I've been trying to say all these years is that by forcing their religion into politics, the Religious Right is sowing the seeds of their own destruction.

Bush had the right idea, but was the wrong guy to implement it. One day in the future, democracy will finally break through in the Middle East. Precisely for the reasons Alexis de Tocqueville outlined 174 years ago. Bush, by pandering to the RR, has demonstrated that he is not the guy to realize that inevitability for the Middle East.

This is why I said the best thing we could have dropped from our bombers over Iraq are millions of copies of Democracy in America.

And a few copies over the frickin White House.

[Dark Jaguar]

In my opinion? Putting teenage mothers who neglect their children to the sword.

Not sure what you mean by this. Only teenage mothers? Only mothers? What do you mean by "neglect"? Abandoning them in a dumpster, or failing to bring them to church?

Without a doubt, it's the most revolting perversion of the most universal and heartfelt of sentiments: man's relationship with God. Secular corruption however has it's own horrors, namely dehumanization and Nietzsche's idealism. While fundamentalists may nauseate you by declaring abortion murder, try arguing with a eugenics consensus who deems your nose aesthetically inferior, and thus your children's right to live.

What sort of corruption is this? Last I checked being secular didn't necessarily imply that, but most religions DO in fact necesarrily imply the corrupt part, unless they pick and choose what parts they like and what parts they don't like. I've yet to see a single person, ever, who actually walks around finding people's noses inferior and neutering those with them. If you are stating that simply accepting reality for what it is leads to people being monsters, then what is it you are trying to say exactly?

[corplinx]

The day atheism becomes a marketable fad, Im switching to voodoo to keep my street cred.