Frogs'n Krauts 'n Iraq

[Jon_in_london]

So what connections commerical/military interests do France and Germany actually have in Iraq? how much of this do we know and how much is just idle speculation?

eg. they arent agreeing with us so they must have some other interests. Bear in mind they could just be doing this because they are bloody minded and want to piss us off.

[BillyTK]

The french have got oil interests and the germans have supplies for WMD interests. The Martians are also culpable for selling Iraq the parts for a giant portable Destructo-ray.

[Reginald]

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2002/0919threats.htm

No great suprises there given their stance at the moment.

:rolleyes:

I particularly like the line:-

At Peugeot, a spokeswoman said the company delivered 500 cars to Iraq in the first half of the year under the oil-for-food program, about the number it delivered annually before the Gulf War.

Nothing like a Peurgeot and a nice piece of Brie. Yum!

Edited due to headache

[DanishDynamite]

Jon_in_london:eg. they arent agreeing with us so they must have some other interests. Bear in mind they could just be doing this because they are bloody minded and want to piss us off. Who is "us", Limey?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Jon_in_london: Who is "us", Limey?

The people who arent 'them'

[Reginald]

If you think about it, Sadman is doing something quite obvious. As is his normal ploy he is drawing this thing out to the last minute. I would guess that his people will be all sweetness and light between now and Feb 14th.

What will he achieve? Simple, he has already stretched the relationships between some members of the UN almost to the limit. He has shown that the UN can't agree on something and do something very quickly. He can guage who is sympathetic and who isn't. He has cost the US and UK tax payer probably Billions of pounds/dollars already (and still counting).

He's playing a game, and he is very good at it. Hes no fool.

[Jon_in_london]

I dont doubt that Reg. But I have seen many many allegation about the massive oil interests that France has in Iraq and Germany is selling Iraq newkyular weapons etc.. and just wondering if this had foundation in fact or was a pice of wishfull thinking to explain away said countries aversion to war, the poufs!

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Reginald
If you think about it, Sadman is doing something quite obvious. As is his normal ploy he is drawing this thing out to the last minute. I would guess that his people will be all sweetness and light between now and Feb 14th.

What will he achieve? Simple, he has already stretched the relationships between some members of the UN almost to the limit. He has shown that the UN can't agree on something and do something very quickly. He can guage who is sympathetic and who isn't. He has cost the US and UK tax payer probably Billions of pounds/dollars already (and still counting).

He's playing a game, and he is very good at it. Hes no fool.

Timely and perceptive comment.

Of course he's soon going to be playing the game of "Spot the cruise missile flying up Bagdad Boulevard"...

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
I dont doubt that Reg. But I have seen many many allegation about the massive oil interests that France has in Iraq and Germany is selling Iraq newkyular weapons etc.. and just wondering if this had foundation in fact or was a pice of wishfull thinking to explain away said countries aversion to war, the poufs!

Here's a new article about the Germans (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EB05Ak02.html).

This point, by the leading German opposition:

Friedbert Pflueger, foreign policy spokesman of the main opposition Christian Democratic parties and an embittered critic of Schroeder's and Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer's Iraq policy, last Thursday accused the red-green coalition government of deliberately keeping the German and world public uninformed of BND (German foreign intelligence service) evidence and assessments on the continued existence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). "If we trust our [intelligence] services, and I do, then we know that there exist weapons of mass destruction in Iraq," said Pflueger, and referred to a November 13, 2002, BND briefing of members of parliament's foreign affairs committee in which relevant information was disclosed. As a member of parliament, added Pflueger, he was bound by his secrecy oath not to pass on such information, but challenged Schroeder to make it public forthwith. This was necessary, he said, "so that Herr Schroeder cannot continue to spread the impression that the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is a figment of George W Bush's imagination". He said further that he would dearly like to know exactly how many different types of smallpox virus were in Iraq's possession as - during a November 13 budget committee meeting - Health Minister Ulla Schmidt had motivated her request for a several million euro allocation for the purchase of smallpox vaccine with reference to such Iraqi stocks. Well, Gerhard, why's your minister worried? Or do vaccine purchases fall into the category of economic stimulus for the pharmaceutical industry?

What do you think this all means to someone like me, who believes (1) Iraq has ongoing WMD projects, and (2) The main suppliers are Germany and Russia, and (3) these projects are well-known by the intelligence agencies of Germany, Russia, France, and China?

I believe only a fool takes as 'sincere' France, German, Russian, and Chinese requests that the US should 'share intelligence' with the inspectors. If one believes Saddam has such programs, then one should believe that those four countries are well aware of this fact. If this plays out like I suspect it will, with a war followed by massive evidence that Germany and Russia, at least, and possibly France, were well aware of Saddam's WMD programs and cynically chose to accuse us of 'not being able to prove' their existence, the relationships between those countries will take a tremendous hit.

Our press has already noted that France seems to have betrayed Powell, which has led him to become even more hawkish. I suspect this same thing will happen to large chunks of the American Left.

aerocontrols

[Iwentsouth]

I do not feel like searching right now. I about to eat some oatmeal.

Anyoen here know German? there was just an article by one of there main newspapers detailing German companys involvment in Iraq.

There also one recent about some German companys being found guilty of violating sanctions about Iraq.

Will search later if noone does before me. Time to go eat though =)

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


What do you think this all means to someone like me, who believes (1) Iraq has ongoing WMD projects, and (2) The main suppliers are Germany and Russia, and (3) these projects are well-known by the intelligence agencies of Germany, Russia, France, and China?

aerocontrols

Thanks for posting the article aero

But what is the BASIS of beliveing point (2) as quoted above!?!?
Also how do you think France has 'betrayed' Powell?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
But what is the BASIS of beliveing point (2) as quoted above!?!?

Russia has long been a supplier of Iraqi arms.

Germany, from the article I linked to above:

Expurgated portions of Iraq's December 7 report to the UN Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. What's galling is that German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and his minions have long known the facts, German intelligence services know them and have loads of information on what Saddam Hussein is hiding, and Schroeder nonetheless plays holier than thou to an easily manipulated, pacifist-inclined domestic audience.

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Also how do you think France has 'betrayed' Powell?

Quick search of google news:

New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/opinion/26DOWD.html?ex=1044248400&en=2acb5c174be55d2c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

The way the French and German foreign ministers set up the secretary of state on Monday, by luring him to a U.N. session to declare that they would not support an early move on Iraq, was straight out of "The Portrait of a Lady," with Colin Powell as Isabel Archer, seduced and betrayed by the bloodless machinations of Madame Merle and Gilbert Osmond.

Mr. Powell was so livid he jumped to the whack-Iraq side, snapping at the council, "We cannot be shocked into impotence."

This is the only article I could find, (I really wish I could find something other than Dowd :rolleyes: ) but I've seen speculation all over the press that Powell went to the wall against the hawks for the cause of multilateralism with the understanding that France would take the inspections seriously as a method for disarming Hussein, and back war if it became clear that Hussein was jerking the inspectors around.

Powell has lost a lot of credibility in the administration because he encouraged them to follow this path, which seems now to have dead-ended exactly where he said it wouldn't.

MattJ

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


Russia has long been a supplier of Iraqi arms.


Well... No **** sherlock! but WMD since 1991?!?!

The info quoted on France & Deutchland is hardly a damning indictment, think yee not?

[Iwentsouth]

BERLIN, Jan. 31, 2002 -- Two German businessmen were convicted today of illegally selling Iraq equipment that could be used to make long-range cannons capable of firing weapons of mass destruction. The verdict ended a high-profile trial that exposed German commercial ties with Baghdad and embarrassed the federal government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6887-2003Jan31.html

[Jon_in_london]

thanks, Iwentsouth

[NoZed Avenger]

Jiminy. I have not given much credence to the "France and Germany are opposing war because of their own interests in the country" argument.

I was going to cynically pop off that there was about the same amount of evidence for that as for the "US is doing it for oil" idea. I am not sure whether I will have to reassess this -- but it does necessitate further research, especially if the German intelligence service really does have the kind of hard information hinted at by the opposition party.

Does anyone know enough about German internal politics to give a gauge on how accurate this assertion is or might be? I have no easy way of judging the gentleman's credibility on this type of charge.

NA

edited because I cannot type worth a dsmn.

[Crossbow]

I think that France, Germany, Russia, and several other countries are just laying the groundwork for their relations with Iraq after Saddam H. leaves power.

These countries will not really stand in the way of US lead action (Germany for example, has already stated that the US may use its German bases and German airspace for any future war with Iraq) but they would like to say to a future Iraq without Saddam H. (no matter who is actually running the show):

"Hey look! You guys have to give us a break on these oil contracts, new car sales, food imports, DVD sales, etc. because we tried so very hard to keep those Americans in check when they wanted to make war on your country. We have always been your friend and hope to remain so well into the future."

I expect that whey push comes to shove, they will give their tacit consent via silence as opposed to outright support (like the British are doing).