9/11 did not help Bush

[Spindrift]

I believe that CTers seem to posit that 9/11 was done by the Bush administration so that they could have an excuse to invade Iraq.

However, it's my contention that 9/11 actually interfered with the attack on Iraq and delayed it by several years.

First I assume that Bush-43, for some reason that I can't fathom, was intent on invading Iraq. Maybe it was finishing the job his father started. Maybe it had something to do with the oil, maybe he really wanted to bring democracy to the middle east. But I don't know.

So 9/11 happens and he has to react to that situation. It was quickly linked to Saudi Arabian members of Al Qaeda and at the time Al Qaeda was firmly ensconsed in Afghanistan and there wasn't any way to deny that. At that time, there was no way you could say we were going after the terrorists by invading Iraq and we're certainly not about to invade Saudi Arabia. So the US has to invade Afghanistan and take care of that.

A few years go by and the Bush administration eventually gets back to its original plan of using the WMD excuse to invade Iraq. Bush also pushes the fictional Saddam-Al Qaeda link as a bonus reason. The problem is that back in 2001 Saddam might have had some WMDs, in the interim however, he has gotten rid of them. Saddam is playing games with Hans Blix and the UN inspectors. Does he have them or doesn't he?

If 9/11 never happened, Bush would have still invaded Iraq using the WMD excuse. However 9/11 did happen and the US military that might have been able to handle Iraq if focused solely on that is stretched too thin. And now we're in the midst of an Iraqi civil war and we ain't got no way out.

Conclusion: 9/11 messed up the Bush agenda and he certainly had nothing to do with making it happen.

Note: This is all conjecture and admittedly a bit convoluted. But I'd like to see what holes can be punched in it.

Note to CTers: I readily admit this is a conjecture and when and if people here blow it to smithereens, I will drop it. That's the way it works!

[Peephole]

I saw one documentary in which they claimed the first thing Rumsfeld and his croonies wanted to do on 9/11 was invade Iraq. They were able to talk them out of it and move it after the Afghanistan war though.

But I don't know, everyday I'm more and more beginning to doubt if this administration plans anything ahead. They just seem to be stumbling along and making decisions day by day. Bad decisions day by day.

[jujigatami]

Its not that the first thing Rummy wanted to do is invade Iraq.

Its that they first SUSPECTED Iraq.

When something like this happens, the first thing peole in the DoD should do is generate a list of possible suspects.

I would think that the list probably included Saddam, Kadaffi, Bin Laden, and a few others whose names I don't even know.

That was speculation before any evidence was gathered.

It would have been IRRESPONSIBLE for them NOT to have suspected Iraq at first. But then as the evidence came in pointing to OBL, they changed their minds.

I also believe that they did come in to the administration with a goal of cleaning up the cesspool that is the middle east, and 9/11 did give them the popular support they needed to begin the cleanup.
IMHO, this is a laudable position. Whether it was right or wrong, well, thats one for the history books.

[Overman]

I saw one documentary in which they claimed the first thing Rumsfeld and his croonies wanted to do on 9/11 was invade Iraq. They were able to talk them out of it and move it after the Afghanistan war though.

But I don't know, everyday I'm more and more beginning to doubt if this administration plans anything ahead. They just seem to be stumbling along and making decisions day by day. Bad decisions day by day.


I saw the same thing.

It was a documentary, not too long after the Iraq war started, about what steps lead up to it. It said Bush and co were thinking about using this to invade Iraq days after 9/11.

[jujigatami]

I saw the same thing.

It was a documentary, not too long after the Iraq war started, about what steps lead up to it. It said Bush and co were thinking about using this to invade Iraq days after 9/11.

Yes, they were... IF it was Saddam behind 9/11, and "days after 9/11" no one knew for sure who perpetrated the attack. While OBL may, and I stress MAY have been the top suspect, Saddam would and should have been suspect #2.

Then it turned out to be OBL and we invaded Afghanistan.

Then they put an imperative on cleaning up the middleast, and guess what, the coubntry that was in violation of multiple UNSC resolutions, in violation of a ceasefire with us, and was playing cat and mouse with UN weapon inspectors for years was first in the crosshairs.

If it had turned out to be Saddam responsible for 9/11 (and I'm not saying it was at all) and we invaded Iraq, and then decided to turn our attention to Afghanistan and the Taliban and OBL, as the next part of the war on terror, would the anti-war factions be all over the fact that Afghanistan wasn't responsible for 9/11? Of course they would. Would it still be the right thing to do to depose the Taliban and send Osama into hiding?

You bet.

[sivazh]

If it had turned out to be Saddam responsible for 9/11 (and I'm not saying it was at all) and we invaded Iraq, and then decided to turn our attention to Afghanistan and the Taliban and OBL, as the next part of the war on terror, would the anti-war factions be all over the fact that Afghanistan wasn't responsible for 9/11? Of course they would. Would it still be the right thing to do to depose the Taliban and send Osama into hiding?

You bet.

I agree. I simply cannot believe the "Hitler Bush kills babies" line of thinking that the anti-war movement people are in.

There are SO many realistic and valid things to criticize about the war and the tactics used that a real case can be made. However, 99% of the anti-war people just attack Bush on a personal level. I am sure most of the are not even educated enough about the issues to have a real discussion. They only know how to scream "No blood for oil!!!!"

We didn't have a real coalition. Not a massive one like we should have had in order to take on worldwide global terrorism. I wish we would have. It looks like NOW that is the focus with North Korea and Iran and it can only be a good thing. These dictators need to know that the World is against them, not just the US.

Other criticisms, disbanding the Iraqi army. Should not have been done. Also allowing the looting and rioting. Should not have happened. And, the training must happen faster and the Iraqis have to be "pushed" to step up to the fight.

Until that happens, we are going to be in Iraq.

[jujigatami]

I agree completely, well, pretty much.

There is enough valid stuff to really criticize. But the war for oil, bush=hitler, saddam was a peaceful secular sweet leader who posed no threat to anyone crowd loses the arguement on premise alone.

Aside from disbanding the army I agree with you 100%. I think the Iraqi army was such a mess of baathist officers who were only officers because of connections, no NCO's at all, and cannon fodder enlisted that there is no way it could have been reformed. It needed to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Now yes, that is a much larger and more difficult undertaking, and unfortunately for both us and the Iraqis it takes a lot longer, but in the long term it is the right move. Short term, its a mess.

[Spindrift]

Okay, maybe I was a bit obtuse in the OP.

My point isn't whether or not we should have gone to war in Iraq.

My point is that Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq pre-9/11 and that 9/11 actually delayed that action.

Therefore Bush would not have been behind 9/11 because it messed up his "master plan" and sidetracked him before he was able to build a case (shaky as it was) to invade Iraq.

[dirtywick]

Okay, maybe I was a bit obtuse in the OP.

My point isn't whether or not we should have gone to war in Iraq.

My point is that Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq pre-9/11 and that 9/11 actually delayed that action.

Therefore Bush would not have been behind 9/11 because it messed up his "master plan" and sidetracked him before he was able to build a case (shaky as it was) to invade Iraq.

I don't think 9/11 delayed it, I think it was part of the cause.

By the time the Operation Iraqi Freedom began, OBL and most of Al Qaeda wasn't in Afghanistan anymore, widely speculated at the time and to this day that they were hiding in Pakistan and other parts of the Middle East. There wasn't anything left to do there but rebuild the country. In fact, if you look at a map, Afghanistan is pretty far north of where most of the terrorist activity was speculated to be taking place.

Iraq, however, is right in the center of it all. It's a pretty good strategic location to keep a large prescence for combatting the war on terror.

I don't think it was planned ahead of time as the President's real goal, I think it was viewed as the most viable alternative, because of refused weapons inspections, the Oil for Food scandal, and the WMD intelligence reports, to moving the war to where the problem actually is occuring. Iran poised to invade, the Shiite muslims lack of overall cooperation that was expected, and the continued insurgency with no real forces to fight it are all reasons to stay longer that work in the government's favor.

Of course, that's all speculation. But it appears obvious that after the first few months in Afghanistan there wasn't much to do there to combat terrorism.

[Peephole]

Its not that the first thing Rummy wanted to do is invade Iraq.

Its that they first SUSPECTED Iraq.

When something like this happens, the first thing peole in the DoD should do is generate a list of possible suspects.

I would think that the list probably included Saddam, Kadaffi, Bin Laden, and a few others whose names I don't even know.

That was speculation before any evidence was gathered.

It would have been IRRESPONSIBLE for them NOT to have suspected Iraq at first. But then as the evidence came in pointing to OBL, they changed their minds.
I can' say for fact but the impression the documentary gave was that Rumsfeld wanted to invade Iraq anyhow. Regardless of who was responsible for 9/11.
I saw the same thing.

It was a documentary, not too long after the Iraq war started, about what steps lead up to it. It said Bush and co were thinking about using this to invade Iraq days after 9/11.
No, it was specifically about 9/11. I think it was a CBC documentary.

Edit: I've got it, it was "The secret history of 9/11" with all the non september 11 stuff cut out.
The part I'm talking about:

From the beginning of the Bush Administration, Richard Clarke says that he did everything in his power to coax them into action against al-Qaeda without success. In the twenty-four hours following 9/11, the Bush team was ready to go to war. But Mr. Clarke says they picked the wrong target, "Well, in meetings on September 11th and on September 12th, the defence department officials, including Secretary Rumsfeld, began talking about the need to attack Iraq. I first thought that they were kidding and it became clear that they weren't. Rumsfeld said, well yeah, we could attack Afghanistan but there aren't very many targets to bomb in Afghanistan and they're not worth very much. So we should bomb Iraq where there are much better targets. I thought there's no connection between what just happened and Iraq. That didn't seem to bother them. I said well attacking Iraq actually will make it more difficult for us to get the kinds of support we need in the world particularly in the Muslim world. That didn't seem to bother them. Secretary Powell tried to have a restraining influence on this discussion. Secretary Powell said look the world is not going to understand if we don't go after Afghanistan. That's where the attack of September 11th was launched from. So reluctantly, during the course of the week, the defence department came around to a consensus and the consensus was called Afghanistan first that's what the President approved, an Afghanistan first policy. It was very clear what was second, and what was second was Iraq."
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/secrethistory/timeline10.html