Your thoughts on the “Flight 93” smoke plume photo

[Killtown]

*If you disagree with these descriptions in this poll choice, please state how long the photo was taken after UA 93 allegedly crashed, how wide you think the plume was, how far it drifted if at all, and whether you think it dissipating much at the time the photo was taken.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

(Note, this thread is not about whether Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, or not. It's is solely about this smoke plume photo.)


What are your thoughts about the famous "End of Serenity (http://www.shanksvillememorial.com/endofserenity.html)" photo that allegedly shows the smoke plume from Flight 93 crashing in Shanksville?


See multiple versions of this photo here (http://killtown.911review.org/flight93/gallery.html#plume).



Before voting, please read the story behind this photo (http://flight93photo.blogspot.com/2006/07/val-mcclatchey-photo-more-smoking-guns.html) along with my analysis of this photo (http://flight93photo.blogspot.com/2006/07/plume-analysis.html) in which I’ve concluded that the smoke plume in this photo:


1) Did not come from a Boeing 757 (with approx. 5,500 gal of jet fuel on board at the time of impact) that was said to have crashed here:

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight93/gallery/crater_pl3.jpg
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight93/gallery/crater_stahl.jpg


but had to have originated closer to where the photo was taken. (See here (http://killtown.911review.org/images/flight93/plume/shanks-plume-1000ft.gif) because analysis contains copyrighted photo.)



2) The photo is fake.




.

[The_Fire]

Been there, done that, still think you are on the wrong track with no idea on photoanalysis and the inherit difficoulties or the knowledge involved.

[T.A.M.]

I voted #1. I ignored all of the leading, opinonated part you added to option #1 to make it seem less credible, as I know your intention.

TAM:):):)

[Gravy]

I'm asking the mods to combine this with Killtown's other thread with a poll about flight 93's smoke.

Please do not encourage Killtown's disgraceful behavior.

[garys_2k]

Yep, that's from the crash, no doubt at all. Oh, but maybe the federales pre-positioned a smoke bomb right where they'd crash the plane, right?

[Killtown]

I voted #1. I ignored all of the leading, opinonated part you added to option #1 to make it seem less credible, as I know your intention.

I moved this to the top of the page because apparantely you missed it:

*If you disagree with these descriptions in this poll choice, please state how long the photo was taken after UA 93 allegedly crashed, how wide you think the plume was, how far it drifted if at all, and whether you think it dissipating much at the time the photo was taken.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

EDIT: Apologies to Lisa S.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not resort to insults.

[T.A.M.]

I choose not to address the part of you rpost after the poll. The poll itself did not mention this. Your poll is misleading. Like any person voting, i have the right to vote which ever way I wish, without justifying my choice.

TAM

[jamrat]

I disagree with Killtown.

[Killtown]

I choose not to address the part of you rpost after the poll. The poll itself did not mention this.

Yes it did, it was there. you just didn't read my post throughly (a problem if find with JREFers). But I moved it up to the top so it will be harder for you guys to say "well, I didn't notice it".

Btw, when you see a *, it means there is further description to that point which usually is mentioned of the same page.

[Horatius]

Wow, I've heard of false dichotomies before, but this is the first false quadrology I've ever seen.

Now, let's just take one little look at one of your pieces of "evidence", shall we?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7508/1605/1600/plume-drift.gif

Now let's go to Google Maps (http://www.google.ca/maps), and search on her address, 107 Osage Path Stoystown, PA, that you've so conviently provided.

Scale the sattelite image to the correct level, and look for the not-quite pie shaped bit of forrest (the bit underlined in your image). this is off to the left of her house, on my screen at least. I'll leave it as an exercise for the student to lay a piece of paper on their screen, to line up with her house and where the image was taken.

I see it as pretty well perfectly aligned with where you say the crash site was. No drifting or anything. So your "analysis" is complete crap.

Pretty much everything else I read was the same old "Let's question everything without using our brain and make up coincidences" crap you usually spew. Just as an example:


It's unclear when she came back home, but she never walked up the road beyond the horizon to see what she allegedly photographed. Instead, she just heard the sirens and went into the kitchen and put on a barbecue for the rescue crews as if she was anticipating the events. How was she able to cook for the crews with her electricity knocked out? Did it come back on by then? Did she just cook on a charcoal BBQ outside**? How did she even think to start cooking for the rescue crews and how did the crews know she was even cooking for them? Did she bring the food down to the rescuers, or did they stop by her house? Wouldn't some official group, such as the Red-Cross, come and feed the crews instead?

From this it's clear you've never actually met anyone from a small town, particularly during any sort of crisis. These people don't just sit around waiting for others to get things done, they pitch in and do it themselves. Just as a pro-Canadian, anti-bozo slap in the face, consider what the people of Gander, Newfoundland (http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/d/day-the-world-came-to-town.shtml) did on that day.

Now piss off, will you?

**BTW, yes, some sort of BBQ, which you'd know if you'd ever read your own fricken page!

[T.A.M.]

ok, whatever you say. I still have the right to answer the poll as I wish, without justifying my answer.

Your poll might as well read:

It’s real and shows a plume from UA 93 crashing, but the plume does not look like what I think it should look like, so there is something wrong with it.

It’s real and originated from/near the crater, but wasn’t caused by UA 93 or a 757 crashing.

It’s real, but wasn’t caused by UA 93 or a 757 crashing and originated far from the crater.

It’s fake.

TAM

[Oliver]

I know, i know it, i know what the plume is!

Since my daily job is to work with Photoshop
and 3d-Software i´m pretty sure it was a
huge Giant doing this:

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/whacky103.gif

[Anti-sophist]

We've already established that Killtown's argument essentially is based on assuming a plane crash at 450mph acts approximately equal to an egg dropping and breaking.

He honestly believes that's a reasonable comparison to make.

That's all that needs to be said, really.

[Horatius]

We've already established that Killtown's argument essentially is based on assuming a plane crash at 450mph acts approximately equal to an egg dropping and breaking.

He honestly believes that's a reasonable comparison to make.

That's all that needs to be said, really.

Yeah, but those bits I explained just stood out as so dumb I had to say something. Bad habit, I know :)

[Killtown]

1) her address, 107 Osage Path Stoystown, PA, that you've so conviently provided.

2) Scale the sattelite image to the correct level, and look for the not-quite pie shaped bit of forrest (the bit underlined in your image). this is off to the left of her house, on my screen at least. I'll leave it as an exercise for the student to lay a piece of paper on their screen, to line up with her house and where the image was taken.

I see it as pretty well perfectly aligned with where you say the crash site was. No drifting or anything. So your "analysis" is complete crap.
1) Thanks, glad some one appreciates that I make things convienent for people.

2) If I recall correctly, lost of JREFers think it drifted.

Why don't you draw up your analysis so we can compare?

[The_Fire]

Why don't you post your analysis, Killtown?

[Killtown]

Why don't you post your analysis, Killtown?
Um, I did. Read my original post.

[Bell]

Isn't there a thread for this fake photo BS theory already?

[The_Fire]

That's not an analysis. Thats guessing. Where are your numbers?

[The_Fire]

Isn't there a thread for this fake photo BS theory already?

Yup.

ETA: right here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61633).

[pchams]

I won't dignify your nonsense by voting in your biased poll.
Go away.

[Killtown]

Where are your numbers?
Ha ha ha!!!

[The_Fire]

Ha ha ha!!!

I repeat: Where are your numbers? That piece of worthless bandwidth waste is nothing but guesstimates.

[Killtown]

Yup.

ETA: right here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61633).
More proof JREFers can't read:

PS - For this particular thread, we are assuming Val's photo IS authentic.

[The_Fire]

More proof JREFers can't read:

REally? It's the same subject. And the same lack of evidence on your part.

ETA: The only difference between that thread and this one is that in the meantime Val's attourney probably slapped you with a ceaze and desist letter which means you had to alter your attackpoint and make it less personal. It's the same picture with the same underlying thought that it couldn't have been a aircraft.

[Killtown]

I'm asking the mods to combine this with Killtown's other thread with a poll about flight 93's smoke.

Please do not encourage Killtown's disgraceful behavior.
Gravy, how was the taker of this photo a "9/11 victim"?

[Killtown]

1) The only difference between that thread and this one is that in the meantime Val's attourney probably slapped you with a ceaze and desist letter which means you had to alter your attackpoint and make it less personal.

2) It's the same picture with the same underlying thought that it couldn't have been a aircraft.
1) Nope.

2) Couldn't have come from UA 93 crashing at the hole.

[The_Fire]

1) Nope.


Evidence?



2) Couldn't have come from UA 93 crashing at the hole.

And where are your numbers providing the accurate scaling of the photos you use? What do you have which is not guestimates?

[Anti-sophist]

Yea, it is weird. Given your analysis, the plume is south of the impact site. The plane was traveling southward when it crashed, and the wind was blowing south.

Weirdness!

[Killtown]

1) Evidence?

2) And where are your numbers providing the accurate scaling of the photos you use? What do you have which is not guestimates?
1) How am I susposed to prove Val's attourney slapped me with a ceaze and desist letter???

2) see my photo analysis blogpost.

[The_Fire]

Tell you what, Killtown: I give you untill tomorrow (approx. 10 hours) to come up with REAL evidence of your theory. This should be easy for you, if you have done proper research, and give me time to catch some zzz as it is currently midnight over here.

[The_Fire]

1) How am I susposed to prove Val's attourney slapped me with a ceaze and desist letter???

YOu claim that this thread and the other one is different. Prove it. Post your numbers!



2) see my photo analysis blogpost.

I did. And it wouldn't hold up in court. Or anywhere else. It's guesswork. As I said: 10 hours.

[SezMe]

What pchams said...especially the go away part.

[Pardalis]

Gravy, how was the taker of this photo a "9/11 victim"?

That's not the point.


This is a graveyard! Stop making fun of it!

[Anti-sophist]

Killtown, how come your "analysis" ignores the speed and momentum the fuel would already have from the movement of the jet when you calculate drift? Surely you don't think the fuel came to a complete stop before it ignited, do you?

Even with your made-up-from-this-air numbers of 250 yards at 15 seconds, that only requires 15 m/s. Wind, alone, takes that down to 10m/s. That means all I need is, on average, 10m/s speed of the fuel, from the impact. It was traveling at 250 m/s, at impact. 10 m/s, to me, even seems kind of low.

[Oliver]

That's not the point.


This is a graveyard! Stop making fun of it!

I know the feeling, these CTists idiots can be very aggravating, sometimes I just want to punch my computer screen. Your decision to take a break was a very sane thing to do. Maybe I should try it sometimes. :)

:p

[Pardalis]

You just read my mind Oliver! :D

[Killtown]

Yea, it is weird. Given your analysis, the plume is south of the impact site. The plane was traveling southward when it crashed, and the wind was blowing south.
So did the plume drift, or not?

[Oliver]

You just read my mind Oliver! :D

I know how it feels ... let´s go and lynch chris. :D

[Killtown]

I did. And it would hold up in court.
Thanks!

[The_Fire]

Thanks for pointing out my spelling mishap. Just corrected it. It now reads as it should


wouldn't
.

[Anti-sophist]

So did the plume drift, or not?

I didn't redo your analysis. I'm accepting your premise that the plume in that photo doesn't align with the crash site. Given all of your analysis, I see absolutely no difficult explaining the photo, and the drift required, when you take into account all the variables. You've ignored one.

To more directly answer your question, I looked at it somewhat closely, once, and decided your yellow-line was too far south, but a more accurate line still requires some drift. I've never done a precise one, so I have no idea where it would land. It seems, to me, that correcting your line to be more accurate is trying to correct information well within the noise.

[Killtown]

Surely you don't think the fuel came to a complete stop before it ignited, do you?
no

[Oliver]

Why should someone fake the plume at all? Because the whole NWO and/or NeoCons are a bunch of idiots? :boggled:

[Anti-sophist]

no

Why are you not answering the more important question, then? Why do you ignore this variable in your analysis?

[Killtown]

1) I looked at it somewhat closely, once, and decided your yellow-line was too far south,

2) but a more accurate line still requires some drift.

3)I've never done a precise one, so I have no idea where it would land.

1) Oh, "decided" huh? "Where's your numbers!!!"

2) So you think Horatius is wrong?:


I see it as pretty well perfectly aligned with where you say the crash site was. No drifting or anything. So your "analysis" is complete crap.


3) Well hop to it so everybody can compare.

[Killtown]

Why should someone fake the plume at all? Because the whole NWO and/or NeoCons are a bunch of idiots? :boggled:
Who says it is fake?

[Anti-sophist]

1) Oh, "decided" huh? "Where's your numbers!!!"

2) So you think Horatius is wrong?:


I've already said I haven't done a precise analysis. Neither has Horatius. You asked me a question, on my opinion, and I gave it to you.

You are still dodging the important question: Since you know the fuel was moving during the impact, why didn't you account for it's velocity and momentum in your drift calcuation?

[Killtown]

You are still dodging the important question: Since you know the fuel was moving during the impact, why didn't you account for it's velocity and momentum in your drift calcuation?

How would that effect drift?

[Oliver]

Who says it is fake?

Uhm, the guy who brought it up as polloption or the ones that chose this option?

[Anti-sophist]

How would that effect drift?

You don't understand how a southward traveling plane might spread it's debris (and fuel) southward from the point of impact? You don't understand how that would effect the smoke plume?

[Oliver]

BTW: I chose the first option, meaning:

It’s real and shows a plume from UA 93 crashing.

not:

It’s real and shows a plume from UA 93 crashing that grew 700.385743875135926734872346832 yd wide*, drifted 250.28473252346782346324 yd* w/out dissipating*, in 15.297359832598538598263953772549273834 sec* after crash.

[Killtown]

Uhm, the guy who brought it up as polloption or the ones that chose this option?
Yes, it's called "options" and should a poll list ALL possible OPTIONS???

[Anti-sophist]

Yes, it's called "options" and should a poll list ALL possible OPTIONS???

Haha!

[Babylon Sister]

For Bob's sake! Give it a rest!

[Killtown]

1) You don't understand how a southward traveling plane might spread it's debris (and fuel) southward from the point of impact?

2) You don't understand how that would effect the smoke plume?
1) No, I understand.

2) I understand how it can effect the plume size, but how would it affect the drift? Plane crashes, explodes, plume forms, plume drifts.

[Earl The Tall]

Why on Earth do we have a second poll thread dealing with almost same subject as the other one?

[Bell]

Haha!

Thanks for quoting that post!

Here's another poll by Killtown's standard. Note that it doesn't list ALL options, as per Killtown's standards.

Is Killtown laughing at and mocking the victims of 9/11 ?

[ ] Yes

[Oliver]

Yes, it's called "options" and should a poll list ALL possible OPTIONS???

BTW: What do the * mean at the first option? Very clear poll, isn´t it?

[Anti-sophist]

1) No, I understand.

2) I understand how it can effect the plume size, but how would it affect the drift? Plane crashes, explodes, plume forms, plume drifts.

Try an experiment for me.. Take a molotov cocktail, light it, throw it as hard as you can into the ground at a 45-degree angle... and measure the horizontal distance of the smoke plume from the "impact site".

Maybe then you'll get it, because this is basic physics.

At the risk of going over your head, what happened to the horizontal compnent of the velocity/momentum of the fuel before the impact? Why do you think it's horizontal velocity went to 0 during the impact? Why wouldn't you consider the fact that it didn't go to 0? Why wouldn't you consider the fact that "smoke plume" originated from fuel that was burning while being spread south, like the rest of the debris? You've utterly ignored this entire avenue of thought.

[Killtown]

Is Killtown laughing at and mocking the victims of 9/11 ?

No, why in the world would you think that? I'm trying to find their real murderers, not protecting them like you guys are.

[Killtown]

BTW: What do the * mean at the first option? Very clear poll, isn´t it?
Yes, it's very clear if you even bothered to READ:

" *If you disagree with these descriptions in this poll choice, please state how long the photo was taken after UA 93 allegedly crashed, how wide you think the plume was, how far it drifted if at all, and whether you think it dissipating much at the time the photo was taken."

[Anti-sophist]

No, why in the world would you think that? I'm trying to find their real murderers, not protecting them like you guys are.

WOOOOOOOSH goes the sound of his point flying over your head.

[Killtown]

Why do you think it's horizontal velocity went to 0? Why wouldn't you consider the fact that it didn't?
Based off the forensics of the crash scene, most witnesses saying it crash "90 deg down", and factoring the official story that it "burrowed" underground.

Can you show me where the explosion went south?

[Anti-sophist]

Based off the forensics of the crash scene, most witnesses saying it crash "90 deg down", and factoring the official story that it "burrowed" underground.


"Pitch angle - Capt. (deg)" Reads at about 40 degrees.
Source: NS Archive/NTSB (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/index.htm) (Document 4) [PDF (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc04.pdf)] [local (http://killtown.911review.org/pdf/ua93-fdr.pdf)] (Click pic for hi-res.)




Source: Your website

[Oliver]

Yes, it's very clear if you even bothered to READ:

" *If you disagree with these descriptions in this poll choice, please state how long the photo was taken after UA 93 allegedly crashed, how wide you think the plume was, how far it drifted if at all, and whether you think it dissipating much at the time the photo was taken."

Ooops :blush:

[Killtown]

Source: Your website
So all those witnesses were lying?

And lets say it hit at 40deg, so what? If it burrowed, it still burrowed.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

EDIT: My attempt to illustrate absurdity by being absurd is, now that I think about it, perhaps a tad too absurd.
(I copy and pasted a random wikipedia article, removing all spacing and indentation, froming a massive, illegible wall of text)

EDIT 2: Too late, Ollie got it. :p

[Oliver]

Babylon 5 is an epic American science fiction television series created, produced, and largely written by J. Michael Straczynski. The show centred around the titular Babylon 5 space station, which acted as a focal point for politics, diplomacy and wars. It is noted for its heavy reliance on pre-planned story arcs over its five-year run, sometimes described as a 'novel for television'.[1] The pilot movie, The Gathering, aired on February 22, 1993, and the regular series initially aired from January 26, 1994 through November 25, 1998, first in syndication on the short-lived Prime Time Entertainment Network, then on cable network TNT. Because the show was aired every week in the United Kingdom on Channel 4 without a break, the last four or five episodes of the early seasons were shown in the UK before the US. The series won several awards, including two Hugos for Best Dramatic Presentation. J. Michael Straczynski was determined to produce a science fiction series for adults in which, for once, things would be done properly: consistent technology, "no kids or cute robots". He started out with ideas for two different shows, one a vastly ambitious epic covering massive battles and other universe-changing events and the other set in a single space station, before realizing both could be done in a single series.[2] It was not a utopian future — there is greed and homelessness. It was not a place where everything was the same at the end of the day — main characters grow, develop, live, and die. Straczynski wanted the show to be a mirror to the real world and to covertly teach (an idea mentioned by Mark Twain).[3] The Babylon 5 StationUnlike most television shows, this series was conceived as a novel, with a defined beginning, middle, and end. In addition, even tie-in novels, comic books, and short stories play a significant part of the overall story. The show uses an arc-driven storytelling style now prevalent in science fiction and in mainstream drama. In the DVD feature The Making of Babylon 5, Walter Koenig said "It's an exciting uniquely different series that could forever change the way you look at science fiction television" and referred to "groundbreaking special effects and new breathtaking achievements in makeup, sets and costumes." Straczynski anticipated the rise of digital television, shooting the series in 16:9 format rather than the normal 4:3 - a full six years before ER and many other dramas began doing the same thing. Babylon 5 also revolutionized the use of computer technology (using Amiga-based Video Toasters at first, and later Pentium and DEC Alpha-based systems)[4] in creating visual effects at a time when using models and miniatures was the norm. It was also the first sci-fi series to respect Newtonian physics in its space battle sequences, with particular emphasis placed on the effects of inertia. More recent series such as Joss Whedon's Firefly and the Sci-Fi Channel version of Battlestar Galactica have also made similar efforts to simulate realistic physics.[5] [edit] Music and scoring
The original pilot movie had music composed by Stewart Copeland. When the show was picked up as a weekly series Copeland was not available, and so Straczynski hired Christopher Franke, of Tangerine Dream fame. Franke stayed on as the composer for all five seasons of Babylon 5, and three of the Babylon 5 telefilms. When Straczynski obtained funds to create a new writer's edition of the pilot movie, the original Stewart Copeland score was replaced with a new score by Christopher Franke. [edit] Use of the Internet
Main article: Babylon 5's use of the Internet The show was one of the first to employ Internet marketing to create a buzz among online readers far in advance of the airing of the pilot episode. Straczynski participated in online communities on USENET (in the rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated newsgroup), and the GEnie and Compuserve systems before the Internet came together as it exists today. Also during this time, Warner Bros. executive Jim Moloshok created and distributed electronic trading cards to help advertise the series. In 1995, Warner Bros. started the Official Babylon 5 web site which was hosted on the now defunct Pathfinder portal. In September 1995 they hired a fan, Troy Rutter, to take over the site and move it not only to its own domain name at www.babylon5.com, but also to oversee the Keyword B5 area on America Online. The fans continued to play an important role in the development of the series and the online support campaign is credited with helping persuade former PTEN station owners to carry the fourth season of the show in 1996.The series consists of a five-year story arc taking place over five seasons of 22 episodes each. John Iacovelli said "Babylon 5 is a window on the future" in the DVD feature Creating the Future, linking to the idea of a space opera. The hub of the story is set in the 23rd century (2258-2262 AD) on a large space station named Babylon 5; the five mile (8 km) long, 2.5 million ton rotating colony is built to be a gathering place for fostering peace through diplomacy, trade, and cooperation. [edit] Babylon stations Babylon 5 orbiting Epsilon IIIIn the show, Babylon 5 is a center of political intrigue and conflict, and eventually takes part in a massive interstellar conflict. This is reflected in the opening monologue of each episode which includes "last, best hope for peace" in season one but changes to "last, best hope for victory" by season three. Babylon 5 is the fifth Babylon space station, a modified version of an O'Neill Cylinder. Three predecessors, the original Babylon station, Babylon 2 and Babylon 3 were all sabotaged and destroyed before their completion. The fourth station, Babylon 4 vanished twenty-four hours after it became fully operational ("Babylon Squared" and "War Without End"). Babylon 5 is substantially smaller than the previous stations due to budget constraints after the failure of the first four stations. The station is set in the Epsilon Eridani star system, orbiting the third planet of that system, "Epsilon III". Bruce Boxleitner, who played station commander Captain John Sheridan, described the space station Babylon 5 as "... A free port for diplomats, travelers and businessmen. A combination of building the United Nations and Times Square on an intergalactic scale...", in the introduction of "The Guide to Babylon 5". Civilizations
Main article: Civilizations in Babylon 5 G'Kar (left) of the Narn Regime and Londo Mollari of the Centauri Republic.At the beginning of the series, Five dominant civilizations are represented. The dominant species are the Humans, Minbari, Narn, Centauri, and the Vorlons. "The Shadows" and their various allies are malevolent species who appear later in the series. The less powerful races make up the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. [edit] "Trap doors" Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.
Though conceived as a whole, and with Straczynski writing most of the episodes (including all of the episodes of the third and fourth seasons, a feat never before accomplished in American television[6]) it was necessary to adjust the plotline to accommodate external influences. Each of the characters in the series was written with a "trap door" into their background that, in the event of an actor departing from the series, the character could be written out with minimal negative impact to the story. In the words of Straczynski, "As a writer, doing a long-term story, it'd be dangerous and short-sighted for me to construct the story without trap doors for every single character. [...] That was one of the big risks going into a long-term storyline which I considered long in advance."[7] Major challenges included the replacement of actor Michael O'Hare as the station commander after the first season. Jeffrey Sinclair was intended from the beginning to become Valen.[8] As originally planned, this would have occurred at the end of the series, but with Michael O'Hare's departure at the end of Season One, Sinclair's transformation to Valen was moved up by what became several years.[citation needed] The character of Talia Winters was to have undergone a transformation into a Psi-Corps agent, having been revealed as a "sleeper" whose true personality was buried subconsciously and acted as a spy observing the events on the station and the actions of her command staff. When Thompson left the series, this revelation was turned into a way to remove the character from the series permanently. Had Thomson remained, her "good" persona would have been restored by the use of a data crystal that Kosh had commissioned through the services of a "Vicar"; According to JMS, Kosh had detected the Psi-Corps plot, and had taken steps to salvage what he considered a valuable resource. This plot was never used.[citation needed] Two characters were written out using a pair of intertwining "Trap Doors". When Jason Carter left the series at the end of Season 4, the "Trap Door" calling for Marcus Cole to die in battle was altered so as to literally give his life *to* Susan Ivanova as she lay dying from wounds suffered in battle. In a twist that left the possibility for Cole's return, his body was left in suspended animation on the station to await a new discovery that might resuscitate him. Subsequently, when Claudia Christian left the series at end of Season 4, her character was written out of the series by having Ivanova accept a command of her own on a deep-space exploration mission, her self-realization of her grief over the loss of Marcus being the defining factor in Ivanova's decision to leave.[citation needed]Languages English is mentioned explicitly as the "Earth language of commerce". Hearing other human languages or even their mention is highly uncommon in the series. Ambassador Delenn and Londo Mollari, both alien characters, speak with regional accents similar to Russian and Eastern European slavic countries. All the major human characters speak American English, with the exception of Marcus Cole, who speaks with distinct British Received Pronunciation. Susan Ivanova, born in Russia, speaks with an American accent, but has some posters with writing in the cyrillic alphabet in her room, possibly indicating she knows the language.[citation needed] Her father speaks with a distinct Russian accent, as does her brother. Various other minor human characters speak English with recognizable regional accents. Londo Mollari has a noticeable accent, developed independently by actor Peter Jurasik[9] and most closely imitated by William Forward, who played Lord Refa. In the novels it is described as a "Northern accent" and is considered uncouth.[citation needed] G'Kar has a particular gift for speech and writing in both Narn and English, as is demonstrated particularly from early in the third season onward. The Gaim, Pak'Ma'Ra and Vorlons do not speak directly in English, though in the case of the Vorlons it is not entirely clear that sounds preceding their English speech is their native language. Some companion literature to the series has suggested they simply refuse to learn other languages. This is true for the Pak'Ma'Ra - in the tv series, Lennier asks Delenn what to do with the Pak'Ma'Ra Ranger applicants, since they refuse to learn any language other than their own. Among aliens, only Minbari are shown to speak a different language when humans are present to stress that the humans cannot understand what is being said. When Minbari (or Narn, Centauri, etc.) are shown talking to each other, they are shown as speaking in English (except for a Narn religious ceremony in season 1) although according to creator Joe Straczynski it is presumed they are speaking their native language while the audience hears it as English. Authoritarianism vs. chaos; light vs. dark The central theme in Babylon 5 is the conflict between order and chaos, and the people caught in between. The Vorlons represent an authoritarian philosophy: you will do what we tell you to, because we tell you to do it. The Vorlon Question "who are you?" focuses on the identity as the motivator over personal goals.[10] The Shadows represent chaos. Their belief is that by creating conflict, a stronger generation is born — "survival of the fittest".[11] The question they pose is "what do you want?" Placing desire and ambition before everything else, encouraging conflict between other groups, who choose to serve their own glory or profit.[12] Selfishness is often the turning point of a character from light to darkness, and selflessness denotes a change in the reverse. The stated philosophies of both the Vorlons and the Shadows seem directly in conflict with the effects their presence seems to produce. During the time that the Vorlons are tacitly "in charge" of the known universe, wars and skirmishes seem commonplace. However, as soon as the Shadows increase their presence, an alliance of races begins to form to fight them. ("Z'ha'dum").[edit] War and peace The Babylon 5 universe includes numerous major armed conflicts. The conflicts serve to illustrate specific themes: every conflict has a forgotten "third side," people crushed beneath the feet of the powerful; a single individual willing to sacrifice himself can be more powerful than the greatest army; whereas an individual willing to sacrifice everyone else to serve his own objectives can reduce entire worlds to ashes, and yet still be defeated. Ultimately, every violent conflict is born out of self-interest, perpetuated by prejudice and ideology, and resolved by the realization that each side needs the other to survive. The most clear example of this is the history of the Hyach race: The Hyach evolved alongside the Hyach-Doh, with whom they interbred. Over the course of centuries the Hyach leadership began a process of persecution beginning with religious laws and ending in genocide. It was not until after the last Hyach-Doh had been killed that the Hyach birth-rate began to fall: the Hyach genetic structure needed the Hyach-Doh for them to survive, and by wiping them out they had doomed their race. By the end of the series, we find members of opposing sides working together to forge a new future. [edit] Love Unrequited love is a source of pain in Babylon 5. The losses of characters such as Ivanova and Sinclair are central to the story arc of the first three seasons, while Marcus and Lennier are ultimately destroyed by their love (for Ivanova and Delenn, respectively). Not all love in the show is unrequited, however. Sheridan, for example, returns from the dead after discovering that his love for Delenn is "worth living for" in "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?".[13] [edit]Religion One of the aspects of Babylon 5 was that many of its characters had profound spiritual and/or religious beliefs ("The Parliament of Dreams"). Straczynski, an atheist, was determined that the characters and the show would treat all these beliefs with the utmost respect, saying, "religion [...] has always been present. And it will be present 200 years from now. That may not thrill me, but when one is a writer, one must deal with realities, and that's one of them. To totally ignore that part of the human equation would be as false and wrong-headed as ignoring the fact that people get mad, or passionate, or strive for better lives. [...] In the Babylon 5 universe, all the things that make us human -- our obsessions, our interests, our language, our culture, our flaws and our wonderfulnesses -- are all still intact."[14]
Often, a religious or moral question was presented with no clear answer. A perfect example was "Soul Hunter" in which three different interpretations are presented for the Soul Hunters' actions. The moral conflict presented in "Believers" is another example. More important for the overall arc of the program was the large plot thread hinging upon Minbari religious beliefs and the spiritual evolution of G'Kar.

Summarized?

EDIT: Muhawawawaw ... I know - i´m nasty. :D

[Bell]

Babylon 5 is an epic American science fiction television series <snip>

<snap>

<snip> the spiritual evolution of G'Kar.

I very much enjoyed Enterprise, or as it was retitled from season 3 onwards Star Trek: Enterprise.

I've got all 4 seasons on DVD. On the one hand I felt sorry the series got canned, on the other hand, I didn't have to spend a lot of money on buying the DVD's.

What I missed in season 4, and partially in season 3 (the Xindi arc) was the premise of humanity's first steps in space discovery, which where portraided very good (IMHO) in the first two seasons.

Also, Jolene Blalock is really hot :D

[Pardalis]

I prefer Hoshi. ;)

[Bell]

I prefer Hoshi. ;)

She's sweet as well. And some of the guest actresses... even alien ones :c1:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Summarized?

EDIT: Muhawawawaw ... I know - i´m nasty. :D

As I said, I was mocking Killtowns bizarre obsession with the smoke plume by removing the formatting form a wikipedia article. Being a Babylaniac myself, B5 seemed like a good semi-random choice.

@Pardalis & Bell: Star Drek Voyager, 7th season; the episode where 7 0f 9 spends too much time in the holodeck pretending to be a regular person. Hair down, sleveless red dress with scooped neckline... nuff sed. ;)

[Pardalis]

hmmm, these Orion women. :drool:

[Bell]

As I said, I was mocking Killtowns bizarre obsession with the smoke plume by removing the formatting form a wikipedia article. Being a Babylaniac myself, B5 seemed like a good semi-random choice.

@Pardalis & Bell: Star Drek Voyager, 7th season; the episode where 7 0f 9 spends too much time in the holodeck pretending to be a regular person. Hair down, sleveless red dress with scooped neckline... nuff sed. ;)

I never really watched VOY (trekkie lingo - but I'm not a trekkie, mind you) so I missed that (best?) part of the series.

Pardalis, yes. They can make me their slave any day :D

[Pardalis]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8886453aa8819e17c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2141)

I just had to. :D

[Oliver]

You guys are: http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/love072.gif


:D

[Bell]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8886453aa8819e17c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2141)

I just had to. :D

:eek:

Uhm... I retrack my previous statement.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8886453aa8819e17c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2141)

I just had to. :D

ROFLMAO!!!

[Brainache]

Rolf Mao?

You mean the Chinese entertainer who sang "Tie me capitalist down sport?"

[Oliver]

ROFLMAO!!!

She will kill all of you ... someday :D

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Rolf Mao?

You mean the Chinese entertainer who sang "Tie me capitalist down sport?"

I just double checked, you transposed the L and the F.

It's ok though, I often do the same thing when I pick up the paper and read the headline "Teacher Jailed on Sex Changes" or on one of TS1234's threads where I thought he said "Defibrolators Needed for Public Debate". ;)

[Bell]

I just double checked, you transposed the L and the F.

It's ok though, I often do the same thing when I pick up the paper and read the headline "Teacher Jailed on Sex Changes" or on one of TS1234's threads where I thought he said "Defibrolators Needed for Public Debate". ;)

It was only tonight I figured Oliver's thread said
"My evidence that the Reagan shooting was a gov't conspiracy"
instead of
"My evidence that the Reagan shooting wasn't a gov't conspiracy"
The thread is here since October 17 :rolleyes:

[Killtown]

So I take it most of the 22 that voted "yes" believe the plume was 700yd wide, drifted 250yd w/out dissipating, in 15 sec* after crash?

[Bell]

But anyhow, we are derailing the discussion. We were talking about Star Trek: Enterprise (and other SF series).

[Brainache]

I just double checked, you transposed the L and the F.

It's ok though, I often do the same thing when I pick up the paper and read the headline "Teacher Jailed on Sex Changes" or on one of TS1234's threads where I thought he said "Defibrolators Needed for Public Debate". ;)

Yes I do stuff like that all the time.

For ages I thought the KD Lang song Constant Craving was actually called Custard Gravy.

[Skibum]

and other SF series

Anyone else watch Battlestar Galactica, I really enjoy it. I think the new series is much better than the original.

[Brainache]

But anyhow, we are derailing the discussion. We were talking about Star Trek: Enterprise (and other SF series).

Now you've done it. Don't give away vital clues like that Mr Bell. We were waiting to see if Mr KKK illtown would notice.

[fuelair]

I never vote unless there is an On Planet X option (like "On Planet X all CTers without full certification (degree or other depending on field) by experts in the field they are criticizing must be hung upside down by their toes and listen to boring recitals of the actual facts and analyses made by their knowledgeable betters."

[Brainache]

Anyone else watch Battlestar Galactica, I really enjoy it. I think the new series is much better than the original.

Yep I'm loving it. Sometimes gets a bit too soap opera for me, but then the battles start and it's pretty bloody good.

[Pardalis]

I saw only bits of Galactica, I don't know what to think of it yet, it seemed to lack the budget of Star Trek.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

But anyhow, we are derailing the discussion. We were talking about Star Trek: Enterprise (and other SF series).

Actually, we were discussing nerd porn.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/Kilstryke/6.jpg

I'm convinced heaven will look like this.

[stateofgrace]

Anyone else watch Battlestar Galactica, I really enjoy it. I think the new series is much better than the original.

I don't think it is being broadcasted in the UK yet but I'm not too bothered the first series wasn't that good.

[Bell]

Now you've done it. Don't give away vital clues like that Mr Bell. We were waiting to see if Mr KKK illtown would notice.

I'm sure he noticed the discussion drifting away from talking about Star Trek: Enterprise to a discussion about misreading words/sentences. :p

[Pardalis]

I'm convinced heaven will look like this.

Replace that with a bunch of Wonder Women and Lois Lanes and you got my vision of paradise. :D

[Bell]

Actually, we were discussing nerd porn.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/Kilstryke/6.jpg

I'm convinced heaven will look like this.

Oooh, where to begin? Where to begin?

Wait, wait, I really don't get turned on by hand drawn or computer generated girls. Really! :boxedin:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Anyone else watch Battlestar Galactica, I really enjoy it. I think the new series is much better than the original.

Mormons in Spaaaaaaaaccce!!!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Oooh, where to begin? Where to begin?

Wait, wait, I really don't get turned on by hand drawn or computer generated girls. Really! :boxedin:

Not a Paris Hilton (http://parisfacial.ytmnd.com/) fan, huh?

[Horatius]

Well, I was going to go into more details about his "evidence", but now I'll just say:

Give me Ezri Dax (http://ukiahman.tripod.com/ezri_dax_5.jpg) or give me Death (http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Images/images/s-death2.jpg)!

[Killtown]

Curious, has anyone bought one of these photo? Did you mail it to the owner:

[Pardalis]

Give me Ro Laren (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/mediaview?id=2103142&episodeid=68542&count=-1) and I shall die in peace.

[Popeholden]

stop guessing killtown

[Lisa Simpson]

I'm asking the mods to combine this with Killtown's other thread with a poll about flight 93's smoke.

Please do not encourage Killtown's disgraceful behavior.

Sorry, but we can't merge together two threads, each of which has a poll. It would completely blow the forum software. That being said, Killtown, you may not keep opening new threads/polls asking the same thing over and over. That is against the rules.

[Oliver]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dr_wadd/klingons.jpg

Rooooar http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/11107451d93669e73a.gif

[Bell]

Not a Paris Hilton (http://parisfacial.ytmnd.com/) fan, huh?

ROLF MAO

[Killtown]

Well this one is technically different and the last sorta related one was closed for some reason, but this will be the last one related to this photo I start.


PS - Is it NOT against Forum rules to hijack threads? If so, I'm going to start hijacking threads too.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dr_wadd/klingons.jpg

Rooooar http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/11107451d93669e73a.gif

Mommyyyy... Ollie broke the internet. :(

[stateofgrace]

Does anybody know if the second series of Battlestar Galactica will be broadcast in the UK soon?

[Skibum]

Does anybody know if the second series of Battlestar Galactica will be broadcast in the UK soon?

Its on the Sci Fi channel, I know a few brits who have seen it(though they may have downloaded it).

[Sword_Of_Truth]

PS - Is it NOT against Forum rules to hijack threads? If so, I'm going to start hijacking threads too.

Amazing how easy it was, isn't it?

Imagine the damage we could have done if we used box cutters?

[Bell]

Mommyyyy... Ollie broke the internet. :(

Damn Germans!

They should keep to making cars and toys. That they are good at.

[Killtown]

Amazing how easy it was, isn't it?
Amazing how immature it was, but that's what JREFers are known for, huh?

[Pardalis]

Amazing how immature it was, but that's what JREFers are known for, huh?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8886453aba46a47d9.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2144)

[stateofgrace]

Its on the Sci Fi channel, I know a few brits who have seen it(though they may have downloaded it).

That's great. I'll make sure to tune in.

[Oliver]

Amazing how immature it was, but that's what JREFers are known for, huh?

What´s your agenda, KT? As far i see it you want to change something. But your way to discuss things leads to these reactions in here. Start discussing facts because most people in here don´t like to speculate wich is what you are doing - speculating. This will make no progress in terms of your agenda at all.

[Bell]

That's great. I'll make sure to tune in.

What do you think of the new Doctor Who series?

And which doctor do you prefer? Christopher Eccleston or David Tennant?

[SezMe]

PS - Is it NOT against Forum rules to hijack threads? If so, I'm going to start hijacking threads too.
If hijacking was against forum rules, we'd have about 3 people left - and two of them would be lurkers. :)

[Pardalis]

What do you think of the new Doctor Who series?

I miss the scarf.

[twinstead]

Killtown. Gotta hand it to u.

Keping up the good fight even after shown to be totally wrong.

I wish my own kids (who BTW are equivilent to you intellectually, and just as difficult to debate) would stick to their guns like you.

[stateofgrace]

What do you think of the new Doctor Who series?

And which doctor do you prefer? Christopher Eccleston or David Tennant?

Oh come you can't be serious Christopher Eccleston was by far a better Doctor Who.

The way they made the Darleks fly was awesome in this series.

[Oliver]

Amazing how immature it was, but that's what JREFers are known for, huh?

What´s your agenda, KT? As far i see it you want to change something. But your way to discuss things leads to these reactions in here. Start discussing facts because most people in here don´t like to speculate wich is what you are doing - speculating. This will make no progress in terms of your agenda at all, wrong?

[Bell]

Oh come you can't be serious Christopher Eccleston was by far a better Doctor Who.

The way they made the Darleks fly was awesome in this series.

I agree about Christopher Eccleston. I liked the 'dark' part about him. I haven't seen all episodes, but the finale, when the space station gets attacked, and all the Daleks fly towards it... excellent.

From the David Tennant series I quite enjoyed the episode Love & Monsters, which starred Marc Warren, who btw, played Blithe in the episode Carentan of the series Band of Brothers.

[twinstead]

Killtown is a child fed up with grown-up's pragmatism. According to him we just don't GET it.

Again, I might as well be debating my 7 year old.

[Killtown]

Killtown. Gotta hand it to u.

Keping up the good fight even after shown to be totally wrong.
Got a link to that?

[Killtown]

Start discussing facts because most people in here don´t like to speculate wich is what you are doing - speculating.
Ah, so this Flight 93 photo is real and of 93 crashing and that's a fact?

[Oliver]

Ah, so this Flight 93 photo is real and of 93 crashing and that's a fact?

It does not matter what you or i believe because
it´s a dead end to move something. No enemy here.

[Bell]

It does not matter what you or i believe because
it´s a dead end to move something. No enemy here.

But enemy here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/Daleknew.jpg

[Killtown]

It does not matter what you or i believe because
it´s a dead end to move something. No enemy here.
What do you mean "dead end" and "no enemy here"???

[Oliver]

What do you mean "dead end" and "no enemy here"???

Dead end = It changes nothing but getting older

No enemy here = I also want progress to the issue

[Pardalis]

But enemy here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/Daleknew.jpg

Is that a toilet pump he's holding?

[Killtown]

Dead end = It changes nothing but getting older

No enemy here = I also want progress to the issue
Can you be more clear? What changes nothing? your minds are made up?

You want progress? How shall we get there?

[Bell]

Is that a toilet pump he's holding?

:rolleyes:

How would you feel if you went into battle, suddenly had to go to the toilet, and discover it was blocked?

[stateofgrace]

But enemy here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/Daleknew.jpg


Bell I am losing faith in you , do you think there was just one Dalek involved in the invasion? there was many, I have prove, this photograph is not fake. It was taken by those involved.

http://freespace.virgin.net/steve.redfearn/Graphics/JPG/Renegade%20Daleks%20(22).jpg

[Horatius]

What do you think of the new Doctor Who series?

And which doctor do you prefer? Christopher Eccleston or David Tennant?

Well, we've just started seeing the Tennant Doctor here in Canada, so I can't really compare, but I will say I would have liked to see more Eccleston. I quite liked him. And Rose is pretty cute too.......

[Bell]

Bell I am losing faith in you , do you think there was just one Dalek involved in the invasion? there was many, I have prove, this photograph is not fake. It was taken by those involved.

http://freespace.virgin.net/steve.redfearn/Graphics/JPG/Renegade%20Daleks%20(22).jpg

By those involved? Involved in what? The conspiracy?

Wow, what a surprise they produce* evidence of more than one Dalek.

*Produce? Isn't that suspisious?

[Oliver]

Can you be more clear? What changes nothing? your minds are made up?

You want progress? How shall we get there?

Well, all theories i´ve seen so far are nothing but "Blah blah blah". But
some things at the poltical/involvement side are still highly interesting
and not debunked.

Right now (after talking to someone called MJChicago) i´m looking for
information about the claims a BBC-Documentary makes. They say
that the Al Qaida as we know them is a political fairytale:

BBC - The Power Of Nightmares Part 3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3649090417189127240&q=power+of+nightmares&hl=en

[Pardalis]

Well, all theories i´ve seen so far are nothing but "Blah blah blah". But
some things at the poltical/involvement side are still highly interesting
and not debunked.

Right now (after talking to someone called MJChicago) i´m looking for
information about the claims a BBC-Documentary makes. They say
that the Al Qaida as we know them is a political fairytale:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3649090417189127240&q=power+of+nightmares&hl=en

Stay on topic, we're talking about Daleks. ;)

[Bell]

Well, we've just started seeing the Tennant Doctor here in Canada, so I can't really compare, but I will say I would have liked to see more Eccleston. I quite liked him. And Rose is pretty cute too.......

AFAIK Eccleston knew he would only be playing the part of the Doctor for a certain number of episodes. Something about contracts with other actors (Tennant I think?) or something, I'm not really sure.

[Killtown]

Well, all theories i´ve seen so far are nothing but "Blah blah blah". But some things at the poltical/involvement side are still highly interesting and not debunked.

Who debunked one of my claims that the plume on the photo was too big to be near the crater area?

[Skibum]

Who debunked one of my claims that the plume on the photo was too big to be near the crater area?

That would be Davros, creator of the Daleks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/88/Davros.jpg/200px-Davros.jpg

[Oliver]

Who debunked one of my claims that the plume on the photo was too big to be near the crater area?

Shanksville is a dead end for me. But let me ask, how much
did you dig into the political side beside cool photos of craters
and plumes? :boggled:

[Pardalis]

That would be Davros, creator of the Daleks.

Apparently, Ridley Scott helped in the design of those things.

[stateofgrace]

It is unbelievable that people think there was only one dalek, as if.

My photograph is not fake and right now I looking for further prove that there was an army of daleks that over run humanity.

Geeesh the things that some people believe.

[Oliver]

Stay on topic, we're talking about Daleks. ;)

What is "Daleks"? I don´t know if americans have problems with it or if it is against forum rules concerning american morality but this is what i´ve found about "daleks":

Added: It was against "americas NRA morality" :boggled:

[Killtown]

Shanksville is a dead end for me. But let me ask, how much did you dig into the political side beside cool photos of craters
and plumes?
Why is a dead end for you?

You mean motives? Here are some possible ones:

http://killtown.911review.org/911smokingguns.html#motives

[Pardalis]

You just made me get a clue there, Oliver.

[Skibum]

It is unbelievable that people think there was only one dalek, as if.

My photograph is not fake and right now I looking for further prove that there was an army of daleks that over run humanity.

Geeesh the things that some people believe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Dalekmovieposter.jpg/300px-Dalekmovieposter.jpg

[Bell]

It is unbelievable that people think there was only one dalek, as if.

My photograph is not fake and right now I looking for further prove that there was an army of daleks that over run humanity.

Geeesh the things that some people believe.

:hb:

[Bell]

You just made me get a clue there, Oliver.

A raging clue.

[fuelair]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8886453aba46a47d9.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2144)

GREAT POST LMFnAO!!!!!:D :D :D :D :jaw-dropp

[Gravy]

Apparently, Ridley Scott helped in the design of those things.Is that so? I'm not a huge Ridley Scott fan, but I like a good Dalek.

[Oliver]

Why is a dead end for you?
You mean motives? Here are some possible ones:
http://killtown.911review.org/911smokingguns.html#motives

Yes, this type of motives. But i miss the motives from other countries that
may have been involved. ;)

Do you know the BBC-Documentary i mentioned?

[Pardalis]

Is that so? I'm not a huge Ridley Scott fan, but I like a good Dalek.

I don't think he designed it per say, but it is said that he worked on it, back when he was a set designer.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000631/bio

[Killtown]

Yes, this type of motives. But i miss the motives from other countries that may have been involved. ;)

Do you know the BBC-Documentary i mentioned?
Ah, that's too bad.

Nope.

[carlvs]

Curious, has anyone bought one of these photo? Did you mail it to the owner:

(Personal info deleted)

Or did you call her?

(Personal info deleted)



Hey Killtown,

I'm pretty sure posting someone's address and phone numbers is a violation of this forum's rules.

I have sent an alert on that message, and included an excerpt from the article (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06218/711239-85.stm) which appeared in the Aug. 6th issue of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette which details the HELL you and your fellow conspiraloons have put that poor woman through...

[Pardalis]

I must have missed that post...

Damn you Killtown. :mad:

[Killtown]

Hey Killtown,

1) I'm pretty sure posting someone's address and phone numbers is a violation of this forum's rules.

2) I have sent an alert on that message, and included an excerpt from the article (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06218/711239-85.stm) which appeared in the Aug. 6th issue of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette which details the HELL you and your fellow conspiraloons have put that poor woman through...
1) You mean these personal details?...



2) What kind of "hell" did me and my "fellow CT" put her through?

[Killtown]

Lisa, what rule did I break?

Rules

9. You will not post a person's private information that is not otherwise publicly available.

[stateofgrace]

I am unsure, and cannot find positive proof it was an army of daleks as oppose to a single dalek that invaded the earth, as such I withdrew from this thread.

Thank you for those that have taken the time to research daleks.One day the truth will come out

[Bell]

I am unsure, and cannot find positive proof it was an army of daleks as oppose to a single dalek that invaded the earth, as such withdrew from this thread.

Thank you for those that have taken the time to research daleks.One day the truth will come out

Do you have RAW evidence of multiple Dalek?

[Oliver]

Lisa, what rule did I break?

Good question. The Rule should be defined more clearly. :rolleyes:

[carlvs]

1) You mean these personal details?...



2) What kind of "hell" did me and my "fellow CT" put her through?

So you think the behavoir stated in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06218/711239-85.stm) I linked to is acceptable???

They have visited Mrs. McClatchey's office and called her at home, posting satellite maps of her property and accusing her of digitally altering her photo to insert a fake smoke plume. The bloggers have picked apart her story, highlighting inconsistencies in different news accounts and questioning her motives. Others have described her as "surly," "hostile," "irate" and "defensive." People have called her at home, accusing her of being anti-American and of "holding the photo hostage."


On a simple Google search, Mrs. McClatchey's name now pops up in the same sentence as "total fraud."
And this is what she had to say about you:

This Killtown, whoever he may be, I find it very disturbing that this is a 16-page attack on me personally," said Mrs. McClatchey, who opened her real estate company a year and a half ago. "My business is named. That hurts me personally. It's pretty disturbing. My whole life is out there, a map to where I live, a map to my office. It's a safety issue for me. There's some crazy people out there."But while you think it is ok to post her info on your site, when it came to your identity, you play by totally different rules, as the reporter in that article states:

(The blogger identified only as Killtown could be reached only via e-mail. He or she agreed to be interviewed without ever revealing identity and never got in phone contact with this reporter.)

Edit:
It seems the mods have taken care of the problem already - first time I got someone banned...

GOOD JOB MODS!!!

[stateofgrace]

Do you have RAW evidence of multiple Dalek?

I can only link you this.

http://www.daleklinks.co.uk/

I know for a fact that daleks do not act individually and do not invade planets by themselves. I have provided a photograph of multiple daleks in attack formation.

I am sorry you cannot see the reality of it all Bell. The simple fact is that daleks do not over run planets by themselves; they rely on their comrades and fellow daleks.

We should all wake up and stop denying the harsh reality.

Once a dalek always a dalek.

[Bell]

I can only link you this.

http://www.daleklinks.co.uk/

I know for a fact that daleks do not act individually and do not invade planets by themselves. I have provided a photograph of multiple daleks in attack formation.

I am sorry you cannot see the reality of it all Bell. The simple fact is that daleks do not over run planets by themselves; they rely on their comrades and fellow daleks.

We should all wake up and stop denying the harsh reality.

Once a dalek always a dalek.

But what about all the pictures of single Daleks?

Here (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41149000/jpg/_41149859_dalek_203.jpg)

Here (http://www.wessex.clara.net/dalek.jpg)

More here (http://www.bananeira.net/stories/archives/images/dalek.jpg)

And here (http://meisterplanet.com/images/wordpress-entries/dalek-wallpaper-small.jpg)

How 'bout here (http://www.salute.co.uk/war_of_the_daleks/images/DALEK%20KEV6.jpg)

[Pardalis]

Bell, links not working...

[Bell]

Bell, links not working...

:D

Now they are. I forgot to put " at the end :rolleyes:

[Pardalis]

By the way, what happened to Doctor Who's humongous scarf?

It's like Superman without a cape.

[Calcas]

Daleks?

I guess you had to be there...:boggled:

[carlvs]

Good question. The Rule should be defined more clearly. :rolleyes:

While I can't speak for the mods, I think two items came into play here:

1. Most web forums that I know of ban the posting of personal data to protect themselves from any possible legal action in case that person decides to sue.

2. In the alert I sent (as well as the post I had placed in reply to Killtown before finding out that he or she had been banned,) I included quotes from an article that showed that what this person had been doing was part of a campaign of harassment directed towards the woman in question.

[Bell]

Killtown has been banned (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66750)

[ryanebelhar]

I can't view that link Bell, do i have to have a certain number of posts?

[Bell]

I can't view that link Bell, do i have to have a certain number of posts?

Try again, I screwed up that link the first time.
If that doesn't work, go to:

JREF Forum >> Forum Management >> Public Notices >> Killtown has been banned

[Pardalis]

I think one has to have made a given number of posts to have access to the "forum management" section.

Link worked fine Bell.:D

[W6102LA]

I can view it as well

ETA: oops..i just noticed i'm now a scholar, yesterday i'm sure i was a student, maybe that's the difference :)

[TobiasTheViking]

and here

[DanKirby]

I see a "Forum Management" board, but no "Public Notices". Need more posts, I guess.

[Skibum]

I guess we will never know if Killtown thinks there was more than one dalek.

[Pardalis]

I guess we will never know if Killtown thinks there were more than one dalek.

:dl:

[ryanebelhar]

:(

[Bell]

Well, for everyone who can't view that post:

Killtown has been banned for many reasons, not least of which was exposing the JREF to potential legal action (which I will not discuss).

Having a theory about a conspiracy is fine. Questioning is good. Presenting and evaluating evidence is what we're about.

However Killtown's personal vendetta is toxic, and it has no place here.

[Pardalis]

Yeah, "toxic" is the best adjective to describe Killtown.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

What do you think of the new Doctor Who series?

And which doctor do you prefer? Christopher Eccleston or David Tennant?

http://www.celebrities.pl/billie_piper/billie6.jpg

Nuff sed.

(Can I still be a critical thinker if I have a one-track mind?)

[Bell]

http://www.celebrities.pl/billie_piper/billie6.jpg

Nuff sed.

(Can I still be a critical thinker if I have a one-track mind?)

I'd like to give here a good time.. ehm... :boxedin:

[Lisa Simpson]

Eh...she's a bit of a chav, you know?

[Bell]

Eh...she's a bit of a chav, you know?

Proof? ;)

[Lisa Simpson]

Cassandra said so.

[TobiasTheViking]

spoiler


and she is gone

[Pardalis]

(Can I still be a critical thinker if I have a one-track mind?)

I think you can be a man and a skeptic.

I hope so. ;)

[Bell]

Cassandra said so.

LOL :D

[Sword_Of_Truth]

spoiler


and she is gone



Doctor: I guess this will be my last chance to say it. Rose Tyler, I...

I hurt inside when I saw that. :(

[TobiasTheViking]

we all did, we all did.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think you can be a man and a skeptic.

I hope so. ;)

Really, ya think?

Cuz i just had a sobering thought...

LTW Productions Proudly Presents:
Loose Change IV: The Final Chapter; Director's Cut Expanded Edition
With special guest hosts, Jessica Simpson and Jessica Alba.
Costumes provided by Victorias Secret, Ujena Swimwear, Fredericks of Hollywood

God help us all. ;)

[fuelair]

1) You mean these personal details?...



2) What kind of "hell" did me and my "fellow CT" put her through?


Previously, I limited my verbal assaults on this deluded slime waste. Didn't realize he made slime look like the coming of the Gods. I don't believe in Hell or the other, but if I am wrong, I am certain there is a place reserved in it's deeper bowels (how appropriate) for things like this. Ignorance and inability to see your own stupidity are simply not excuses for harassing others. I hope she finds a way to sue their butts off.

[jhunter1163]

I might be a voice in the wilderness on this, but to me there's only one Doctor Who... and it's Tom Baker.

And, Daleks should be easy to defeat. Just approach from the side armed with the toilet plunger and you'll be fine.

One more thing; Oliver, what happened to your avatar? Did you come under fire from Childlike Empress?

[gumboot]

I might be a voice in the wilderness on this, but to me there's only one Doctor Who... and it's Tom Baker.


Amen.

Out of curiosity... I have never really seen any of the new Doctor Who stuff. Did they bring back Daleks? Were they scary? Or just for comedic relief?

-Gumboot

[jhunter1163]

I've never seen the new stuff either, so I couldn't say. It was bad enough when I heard there was going to BE a new Doctor Who. Must've been a week stomping around the house screaming "TRAVESTY!" to no one in particular.

[snagswolf]

Killtown has made two mistakes in his analysis of the Flight 93 crash photo.

First, the angle of the wind in this photo is wrong:

(I'm not permitted to post links yet, but I'm referring to the photo where he shows the wind direction almost perpendicular to the camera trajectory)

He has it crossing the path of the camera trajectory at almost a 90 degree angle.

If you look at this photo

(Again, I'm not permitted to post links yet, but I'm referring to the photo where the wind direction is shown to be towards the southeast)

it shows the proper relationship between the direction of the wind and the trajectory of the camera. The two vectors are off by less than 45 degrees.

This means that the wind would be blowing the plume more in the direction of the camera than he accounts for.

His next error has to do with the wind speed. The speed was around 10mph, but that's a ground wind speed. Wind speed increases as altitude increases. That's why they build those windmills on top of large hills and build them as tall as they cost effectively can.

So, as the explosion plume blew upward, the wind speed increased, and therefore blew the plume closer to the camera.

That also explains how light debris got into Indian Lake.

[bignickel]

Welcome to the forum, Snagswolf! :)

[TobiasTheViking]

Amen.

Out of curiosity... I have never really seen any of the new Doctor Who stuff. Did they bring back Daleks? Were they scary? Or just for comedic relief?

-Gumboot

scary, not comic relief at all. very scary.

[Pipirr]

Daleks? Terrifying. I still shudder when I see a toilet plunger. So it was a great surprise to me to find them starring in a movie of a more, um, risque nature. We should all be thankful that the BBC put a stop to that.

(If you must know, look for "Abducted by the Daleks" - the first links are to the tabloid news stories. I don't want to break any rules here.)

[snagswolf]

Welcome to the forum, Snagswolf! :)
Thanks bignickel. I think I'm going to like it here. :)

[Bell]

Thanks bignickel. I think I'm going to like it here. :)

To bad you missed last night's party. I hope somebody took pictures.

On a second thought... I hope nobody did... :boxedin:

[snagswolf]

To bad you missed last night's party. I hope somebody took pictures.

On a second thought... I hope nobody did... :boxedin:
I saw part of it. I tried to register on Friday but it kept refusing my registration.

So Killtown has been banned? Seems like the forum moderators had their reason, but I'd prefer he be here so we can prove him wrong directly.

[Gravy]

I saw part of it. I tried to register on Friday but it kept refusing my registration.

So Killtown has been banned? Seems like the forum moderators had their reason, but I'd prefer he be here so we can prove him wrong directly.
Welcome to the forums, snagswolf. Killtown has been proven wrong directly again and again. This thread is a reprise of one he started a while ago. If you want to see someone's arguments demolished systematically, this is a good place to go: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61633&highlight=plume

Honestly, though, you'd be much better off doing almost anything else with your time.

[snagswolf]

Welcome to the forums, snagswolf. Killtown has been proven wrong directly again and again. This thread is a reprise of one he started a while ago. If you want to see someone's arguments demolished systematically, this is a good place to go:

Honestly, though, you'd be much better off doing almost anything else with your time.
Thanks for the welcome and the link. I'm here to find out all the info I can.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Amen.

Out of curiosity... I have never really seen any of the new Doctor Who stuff. Did they bring back Daleks? Were they scary? Or just for comedic relief?

-Gumboot

Bit of both, actually.

I laughed my ass off during the dalek/cybermen trash talk contest. :D

[TobiasTheViking]

But they were so COOOL. :)

and scary