Mass for the Dead

[jimmygun]

Over the past few weeks my wife and mother-in-law have gone to church to say a pre-arranged mass for the mother of another couple. The mass is applied for, announced, and time is set aside at the church for people to attend.

It got me to thinking about when I am dead. I am an atheist, have been all my life and live that life according to my beliefs. I like to think that I am not hypocritical, that people can say I was sincere.

I spoke with my wife last night and told her that I do not want a mass said for me by anyone. She wanted to know why and I explained that I felt it would be rude and disrespectful to anyone who did not believe in the hereafter, to be publicly prayed over. It would be the same as if I went to some believer's church, stood up and announced that the departed was not going to heaven, was not going to see Jesus, but was going to rot in the ground.

I have to trust that my wife will not say a mass after I am dead, that she will make my wishes known to those that might want to have one said.

Your thoughts?

[Skeptical Greg]

Sounds kind of selfish to me.. You are putting pressure on a loved one to act in a way, contrary to what they believe to be important... It would be better to lead them to a point where they do not have to go against their belief in order to honor your request..

You can express your belief ( or lack thereof ) by not participating while you are alive... people will tend to repect this and question their own beliefs..

Burial rituals are not for the dead, they are for the living...

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Burial rituals are not for the dead, they are for the living...
I have to agree with Diogenes here.

[jimmygun]

It seems to me that the only thing I am going to leave behind is my reputation. I do not get a second chance at life so I do the best I can to make this life matter. To dismiss that whole life by pretending that it is irrelevant and to publicly announce that I am in limbo in need of prayers to get me into heaven is a slap in the face of the way I lived.

I do not tell people to not pray for me privately for that is their perogative, (though I would prefer them not to waste their time). But to make a public display out of it is to me disrespectful of my life and what it meant.

I am (or will be) an organ donor. It is my wish that usable parts be harvested and the rest be cremated. I specifically do not wish my body to go to science for reasons which are my own. If this wish can be honoured then the wish that a mass not be said for me should be honoured too.

[Akots]

Well, what if she asked you to say a prayer for her at her funeral? Would you do it simply out of a desire to follow her wishes? It seems even if she refrains from mass, she might still go about thinking of you being in the afterlife. Your sort of asking her not to respect your memory.

Of course, it's your funeral, and you only ever get one. You have a right to have it run the way you want. ;)

[ceo_esq]

Are you talking about an actual funeral Mass or simply a Mass said in memory of someone (which can happen at any time after the funeral)?

I can understand about having your wishes respected concerning the disposition of your mortal remains. Trying to prevent people from simply having a Mass said in memoriam, however, seems like overreaching. If you could really ensure such a thing, it would be more an infringement on other people's religious beliefs than on your own. It's more like trying to prevent people from praying for you than it is like trying to prevent your cadaver from being appropriated by a scientific institution.

[jimmygun]

As explained by my wife, the mass takes place sometime after the funeral. It is an appeal to god to shorten the stay of the departed's soul in limbo and hasten his/her arrival in heaven. It is a public display of religion and that is what I would object to. Private prayer is the ownership of the individual, that is not what I am trying to curtail.

I write music for what it is worth. It would be wrong for those left behind to suggest that that music was inspired by god in a public way. It would in no way represent who I was, it would be a lie. It would be theft of my identity.

My wife and friends have enough respect for me not to ask me to participate in a religious ceremony. I will attend services as an observer but will not join in. I could not in any concience say a prayer for anyone for any reason. I am not asking my wife to not pray, just to refrain from having a public mass in my name. It is a simple request and it takes away nothing of her religious beliefs.

All that I am is mortal remains, my body, my thoughts, my beliefs, my creations of music and humour. These things are mine and should not be trifled with.

[Ipecac]

I'm with Jimmygun on this one. I need to make a similar request of my wife.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by jimmygun



All that I am is mortal remains, my body, my thoughts, my beliefs, my creations of music and humour. These things are mine and should not be trifled with.

As Akots asked; If your wife dies before you, are you going to make sure her wishes are followed?

[Dancing David]

This was the genesis of the straight to hell club, one of my friends thought that his mother (bless her) was going to have a southern babtist service when he dies. A friend of his agreed that if the preacher ever said 'he came to jesus', 'he was a good christian', or 'he is with the Lord now', then this coal miner friend would shout out "NO HE'S NOT!"

Thus the origin of the Straight to Hell Club, bubmer sticker read 'Don't pray for me cause I'm going STRAIGHT TO HELL', also entitles you to use the express elevator to Hell and two free drinks at the bar.

[shemp]

Jimmygun, in my opinion, is right. How is it different from what the Mormons were doing when they baptized dead Jews? What if I walked into a Catholic funeral and announced that the deceased was with Allah, or had been reincarnated, or was burning in the flames of hell?

[jimmygun]

Again...my wife would not make a request of me that she knew I would not do. I would tell her up front that it was an impossibility for me to pray for anyone for any reason.

I brought my concerns about a mass to my wife and she agrees that it should not happen. She also agrees to make my request known to those that might want to have such a mass said. As I said before...I must and do trust my wife to carry out this request.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by jimmygun
Again...my wife would not make a request of me that she knew I would not do.




If your wife feels mass is important for other people, why does she feel, it is not for you?


Does she believe you will go to purgatory? If not, why other people and not you?

[Melissa Johnson]

I don't know about limbo, but I know that Catholics feel pretty strongly about Purgatory--using my own extensive background and my Mother as a source. I know when my Mother passes on that somebody in the family--probably me, I doubt my brothers will have the patience for such a thing--should probably arrange to have Masses said in her honor, for the express purpose of helping shorten her stay in Purgatory (which is like Hell, except you get out eventually). I don't believe in these sorts of things and I doubt I'll have anything like a Mass said for me when I'm gone (or even have anyone show up at the funeral! :D )

In the bad old days, and maybe still, there was a tradition of paying the priest to say these Masses (as they had to be said outside of the actual Sunday Mass time, on the priest's own time, and usually there had to be a number of them). It was really just a gratuity, although I remember when my grandmother died seemed it put some strain on my parent's finances to shell out the dough--I was pretty young then.

Still, all the folderol aside, I plan on honoring my mother's wishes. Keeping in topic, I think jimmygun's wife should honor his. If he doesn't want the Mass and all the other trappings, he shouldn't have them--though if his wife is a believer, like my mother, she might suffer some anguish thinking that he is languishing in some underworld furnace, or worse. If god exists and knows all things, he knows that jimmygun doesn't deserve such an ultimate fate :) .

[jimmygun]

My wife's beliefs are her own, you would have to ask her to outline them. I am only objecting to the public display of what I consider rudeness and disrespect. Her private religious thoughts are none of my business.

Do some Christians actually have the gall to baptize Jews after they die? I have never heard of such a thing! It to me would be the most unforgiving insult of all time!

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by jimmygun
My wife's beliefs are her own, you would have to ask her to outline them.

If they are her own, and you respect them; how does that gel with you asking her to go against her beliefs?

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by jimmygun
My wife's beliefs are her own, you would have to ask her to outline them. I am only objecting to the public display of what I consider rudeness and disrespect. Her private religious thoughts are none of my business.

Do some Christians actually have the gall to baptize Jews after they die? I have never heard of such a thing! It to me would be the most unforgiving insult of all time!

In the past (with Catholics, at any rate) after-death and point-of-death baptisms have been a problem. Nowadays they are looked on with the appropriate sort of embarrassment and are certainly discouraged. There have been cases (mostly anecdotal, to my knowledge) of Catholic doctors in Catholic hospitals baptizing babies without the parents' consent, and other such stories, mostly in the past. It's not now considered a very nice thing to do (duh!).

[Luke T.]

What are you going to care what happens after you are dead, jimmygun? :D

And what if your wife is right and you are wrong? There you are in purgatory kicking yourself.....

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Luke T.
What are you going to care what happens after you are dead, jimmygun? :D

And what if your wife is right and you are wrong? There you are in purgatory kicking yourself.....

That very idea has always scared me silly :eek:

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Luke T.


And what if your wife is right and you are wrong? There you are in purgatory kicking yourself.....


Aside from an overload of evangelists and ministers there are no wonder working prophets in sight.
The religious line is 'unsubstantiated faith is worth more than belief based on proof' in the 'eyes' of god.
I find it odd that people can show their pets greater attention, training and proof of their affection than this god shows to its creations.
What's odder is the believers who do not question the capriciousness of their definition of god.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by shemp
What if I walked into a Catholic funeral and announced that the deceased was with Allah, or had been reincarnated, or was burning in the flames of hell?
That would be bad chiefly because it would be offensive to the mourners present, not to the non-entity (dead person who no longer has feelings) they're mourning. Your analogy just reinforces Diogenes' earlier point: rituals concerning the dead are for the benefit of the living, which militates in favor of allowing the survivors to incorporate their memories of the deceased into their metaphysical cosmology however they see fit.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Melissa Johnson
In the past (with Catholics, at any rate) after-death and point-of-death baptisms have been a problem. Nowadays they are looked on with the appropriate sort of embarrassment and are certainly discouraged.
So far as I am aware, the Catholic Church has never practiced postmortem baptisms or held that such a ritual has any effectiveness. Perhaps you have some other sect in mind?

As for adult point-of-death baptisms, to my knowledge, the Catholic Church continues to practice them on the same conditions it always has: where the dying person expresses a wish to have the ritual performed.

[Dancing David]

I want to say that my post was only about my friends and I ,
I have been to other funerals where a friend of mine has been characterized as 'being with the lord' , when they were such a dies in the wool materialist that they never took spirituality as anything other than a joke. But I was quiet and respectful, it is important to honot the memory of the dead by honoring the feelings of the living.
I did not want to suggest that anyone disrupt a service when it was not agreed upon in advance.

I thought a lot about this after seeing the movie Last Orders where some people honor thier friends last wishes, no where do they really do it for spiritual reasons. They do it for themselves in memory of him

Peace

[Supercharts]

To circumvent any wishes on your wife's part after you die just write a letter to the bishop and CC the local pastor.

"Dear paedophile pimp,
I do not want my remains to be used to further your bogus witchcraft.
Sincerely..."

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Supercharts
To circumvent any wishes on your wife's part after you die just write a letter to the bishop and CC the local pastor.

"Dear paedophile pimp,
I do not want my remains to be used to further your bogus witchcraft.
Sincerely..."
This could have opposite the desired effect.. They might decide you 'really' need praying for...

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by ceo_esq

So far as I am aware, the Catholic Church has never practiced postmortem baptisms or held that such a ritual has any effectiveness. Perhaps you have some other sect in mind?

As for adult point-of-death baptisms, to my knowledge, the Catholic Church continues to practice them on the same conditions it always has: where the dying person expresses a wish to have the ritual performed.

No, you're right--post-mortem baptisms are kind of impossible.

According to anecdotal accounts and possible urban legend (which no doubt led to unhappy circumstances)--babies had been baptized by laypersons--i.e. doctors, whomever--without parental consent. I'll have to consult my old pre-Vatican II literature, but there are cases where you can baptize without vocal consent, if I recall correctly...and I reserve, as always, the right to be wrong :D

[jimmygun]

Luke T... are you saying I should hedge my bet, just in case there is a god? I am asking my wife to respect me and my wishes. How could I in all concience ask that of another if I don't respect myself? Should I out of fear disrespect all that I am, all that I believe? Sorry, I cannot be hypocritical like that.

What is the logic argument named for this situation? I am too lazy to look it up.

[jimmygun]

Diogenes...My wife's religious views are her own. I am asking out of respect (not demanding) that she take into account my beliefs and way of life. As I said to LukeT, it would be hypocritical and disrespectful of me to hedge my eternal bet and I feel it would be disrespectful of the life that I led if she were to have a 'public' display of religion in my name.

Walt Disney productions screams bloody murder if someone tries to use their characters without permission, I feel I have the same right to my own intellectual property.

[jj]

My comment is simple: Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

Last fall when my mom died, I had a religious funeral. She was religious and all of her friends were, so I figured whatever closure they got was good.

I figure giving them some closure was mine.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by jimmygun
Diogenes...My wife's religious views are her own. I am asking out of respect (not demanding) that she take into account my beliefs and way of life. As I said to LukeT, it would be hypocritical and disrespectful of me to hedge my eternal bet and I feel it would be disrespectful of the life that I led if she were to have a 'public' display of religion in my name.

Walt Disney productions screams bloody murder if someone tries to use their characters without permission, I feel I have the same right to my own intellectual property.
But Disney actually owns those characters and is around to assert its rights.

What you're trying to is similar to what the law calls mortua manus or "dead hand" control. In law, it's generally discouraged in various ways - it's considered bad policy to enable, figuratively, a "dead hand" to reach out from beyond the grave and meddle unduly with the affairs of the living. Why? Among other reasons, frankly, because dead people are not a going concern and don't really have any rights per se; it's generally far more important to give living people a free hand to make decisions that suit the needs of, well, the living.

It's a difficult situation, and if I were you I'd certainly discuss your wishes with your wife so she can bear them in mind. But you have to keep something in perspective: when you're gone, you're gone. Like you, I also want my memory to be respected, but I realize that it's "my" memory only in a descriptive sense (because it relates to me), not a true possessive sense. The memories themselves will actually belong to my family and friends. Their memories of me are a part of them, not a part of me. My only legitimate opportunity to influence that memory is while I'm alive, so I'll focus on that.

[Loki]

ceo_esq,

Like you, I also want my memory to be respected, but I realize that it's "my" memory only in a descriptive sense (because it relates to me), not a true possessive sense. The memories themselves will actually belong to my family and friends. Their memories of me are a part of them, not a part of me.
Right again, as always! Do you charge by the hour??

My only legitimate opportunity to influence that memory is while I'm alive, so I'll focus on that.
A perfect philosophy for life, IMO.

[jimmygun]

ceo...After I'm gone I'm gone? Is Mozart gone? Is Shakespeare gone? I am not comparing myself to those giants, my memory will only be kept among a small number of people and will die some time after. You are right that the memory becomes the property of the living but I would like as a final passing to preserve the correctness of that memory.

If a smear campaign started after I died and no one was there to defend my memory, those that live after me would have to bear the brunt. If someone makes my memory out to be something it is not then those that survive me are cheated out of the real thing. How many times have you or others gone to a funeral to celebrate the life of the departed only to hear anything but what they were truly like?

As much for my own peace of mind as that of the people I leave behind, I would like to preserve an as close to accurate account of my life (which I have taken such care and trouble to lead) as can be expected.

If my wife said she could not refrain from giving a mass in my memory than I would expect an appointed friend to be given the opportunity to rebut.

It may seem like I am making a mountain out of a mole hill but it is important to me to not just knuckle under to the influence of religion and allow them to make coin in my memory. That is not how I live my life now nor is it the way I wish to be sent off.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by jimmygun
Diogenes...My wife's religious views are her own. I am asking out of respect (not demanding) that she take into account my beliefs and way of life. As I said to LukeT, it would be hypocritical and disrespectful of me to hedge my eternal bet and I feel it would be disrespectful of the life that I led if she were to have a 'public' display of religion in my name.

Walt Disney productions screams bloody murder if someone tries to use their characters without permission, I feel I have the same right to my own intellectual property.


But, you seem to continue to ignore the point, that in having her respect your religious ( or lack thereof ) views, you are showing disrespect for hers.

It couldn't be more simple.

I'm not saying ' good ' or ' bad ', 'right' or 'wrong', I'm just pointing out an obvious conflict of interest that you cannot seem to acknowledge.