Evidence of a Pancake Collapse of WTC1

[gumboot]

My apologies if this has already been pointed out, or if it belongs in another thread.

On the "World Trade Center" website (http://www.wtcmovie.com/main.html) they have some interviews with people who took part in 9/11 in New York. One particularly struck me as interesting. It was a man called Thomas Canavan, who was in the lobby of WTC1 when it collapsed.

The interviews can be seen from the section "In Their Own Words", and Thomas' interview is the last one.

This is the bit that really interested me (my bolding):

...As soon as we got through the doors there was water all over- it was like a lake. All the sprinklers were on. All of the lights were out, except for the emergency lighting. The walls in the lobby of tower one were scorched - all of the marble was scorched. All of the elevator doors were knocked off, hanging off on their hinges.
And as we started to walk out of the doors, with the people I was with, I heard an elderly couple behind me - all of the glass for the doors - the revolving doors - were piled up just like they had smashed and dropped straight down.
And it was wet, it was slippery, I turned around, I went back to help the elderly couple. They had a couple of shopping bags. I helped them through the doors. I turned around to catch up with my co-workers. I got maybe ten feet, and I just felt a huge rush of air coming straight down and a noise of - the only way I can describe it is like a locamotive, but a thousand of them at the same time, and just a thump thump, faster and faster and faster. And the last thing I seen was the people ahead of me, and I just yelled "Run!". And the next thing I know I was just smashed down like a bug with a fly swatter.

If that doesn't sound like a progressive pancake collapse, I don't know what does.

-Gumboot

[Killtown]

What disentagrated the core?

[Dog Town]

Regardless, welcome back ya Kiwi! Ready for summer?

[gumboot]

Regardless, welcome back ya Kiwi! Ready for summer?

Well and ready. The Christmas commercials are starting up so there's plenty of film work around. However before summer (New Zealand summer usually doesn't arrive until mid January) we've got to get through our rather stormy erratic rain-sun-rain-sun spring. :p

-Andrew

[Gravy]

What disentagrated the core?Remember those billion-pound buildings that collapsed? You might want to start there. Or are you "just asking questions?"

[Killtown]

Remember those billion-pound buildings that collapsed?
K, so how did it disentegrate all the core?

And when are you going to answer my questions?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2024285#post2024285

[gumboot]

K, so how did it disentegrate all the core?


The core is made up of lots of little bits. When everything else fell down those bits no longer had the support of the structure, and so lost their own structural integrity. Core fall down.

-Gumboot

[Dog Town]

Core fall down.

And go boom! Sorry... thought he might need that part. Lack of understanding and all!

[Horatius]

And the next thing I know I was just smashed down like a bug with a fly swatter.

Oh My God! It was really giants with flyswatters all this time!

How foolish we've all been!



Hey, it's no sillier than any other theory, right?

[Killtown]

The core is made up of lots of little bits. When everything else fell down those bits no longer had the support of the structure, and so lost their own structural integrity. Core fall down.

-Gumboot
So the basement was blown?

[Bell]

The core is made up of lots of little bits. When everything else fell down those bits no longer had the support of the structure, and so lost their own structural integrity. Core fall down.

-Gumboot

That was the long answer.
This is the longer (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57426) answer.

[gumboot]

So the basement was blown?

...

no

-Gumboot

[Oliver]

...

no

-Gumboot

You need your avatar back in place, Andrew.

[Mancman]

So the basement was blown?

You have become a self parody.

[Killtown]

...

no

-Gumboot
so when everything else fell down those bits no longer had the support of the structure. I thought the core WAS the support structure. Was it not?

[Bell]

You have become a self parody.

Self parody:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Duchamp_Fountaine.jpg/437px-Duchamp_Fountaine.jpg

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-parody)

[gumboot]

so when everything else fell down those bits no longer had the support of the structure. I thought the core WAS the support structure. Was it not?

The core was one element of the structure. The various elements of a structure rely on each other to maintain structural integrity. Disrupting one element of a structure will disrupt elements surrounding it, which in turn will disrupt elements surrounding them, and so on.

The integrity of the core relied on the integrity of the exterior columns and the floor trusses.

The integrity of the exterior columns relied on the integrity of the core and floor trusses.

The integrity of the floor trusses relied on the integrity of the core and exterior columns.

-Gumboot

[qarnos]

You need your avatar back in place, Andrew.

I've forgotten what his avatar looked like.

Speaking of avatars, has yours always had a bite taken out of it, Oliver?

[Killtown]

The core was one element of the structure. The various elements of a structure rely on each other to maintain structural integrity. Disrupting one element of a structure will disrupt elements surrounding it, which in turn will disrupt elements surrounding them, and so on.

The integrity of the core relied on the integrity of the exterior columns and the floor trusses.

The integrity of the exterior columns relied on the integrity of the core and floor trusses.

The integrity of the floor trusses relied on the integrity of the core and exterior columns.

-Gumboot

You mean like this:

http://www.nrc.nl/W2/Lab/Profiel/Speelgoed/jenga.jpg

[twinstead]

You mean like this:

http://www.nrc.nl/W2/Lab/Profiel/Speelgoed/jenga.jpg

LOL. What, are you 15 years old?

[Killtown]

LOL. What, are you 15 years old?
What? Isn't that what he essentially said? Remove one piece and the rest falls?

Btw, what caused all that dust?

[Mancman]

Btw, what caused all that dust?

A really big building collapsing.

[TobiasTheViking]

that has been covered and answered loads of times. If you haven't gotten it through your skull yet i doubt even a Clue-By-Four from my LART kit can get it in there, and i fail to see why anyone should make an effort to explain it to you.

[Killtown]

A really big building collapsing.
When Jenga block collapse, do they turn to dust?

[Mancman]

When Jenga block collapse, do they turn to dust?

Do they?

[TobiasTheViking]

When Jenga block collapse, do they turn to dust?

if they have enough kinetic energy, yes.


Here is an experiment, take a building block(you know, from a house) and drop it from 2 meters up in the air. See what that does? now imagine what a few tons being dropped on it from 2 meters up will do to the block....


And also.

that has been covered and answered loads of times. If you haven't gotten it through your skull yet i doubt even a Clue-By-Four from my LART kit can get it in there, and i fail to see why anyone should make an effort to explain it to you.

So i don't know why i did.

[uruk]

What disintegration? The steel came apart due to stress and impact and was strewn all over the place. The dust was dry wall fiber glass and concrete. http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/
All those materials are relativly brittle. Siesmic (vibrational) energy from the stressed and breaking steel and colliding debris shattered and broke up the sheetrock and concrete.
http://www.ndt.net/article/v07n09/09/09.htm

[steve s]

Btw, what caused all that dust?


Maybe thousands of tons of gypsum (which explains all the sulfate Jones found.)

Do you honestly believe the nonsense you post, or do you just enjoy being a troll?

Steve S.

[W6102LA]

Maybe thousands of tons of gypsum (which explains all the sulfate Jones found.)

Do you honestly believe the nonsense you post, or do you just enjoy being a troll?

Steve S.

He's been banned....

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66750

[defaultdotxbe]

He's been banned....

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66750
im sure hes still reading

[defaultdotxbe]

When Jenga block collapse, do they turn to dust?
a 1300 foot tall jenga game made of concrete and steel would

[njslim]

Had opportunity to listen to talk by Capt (now battalion chief) Jonas who
was in stairway B with dozen others and survived collapse of north tower

Described the sounds of floors as they impacted into one below - BOOM!
BOOM! BOOM! Getting closer and closer....

Say he has a pretty good idea of how north tower collapsed

[gumboot]

So anyway... back to the actual quote the OP is about... ;)

Any thoughts? I thought it was a telling account of non-explosive collapse. I found the "down rushing air" thing especially interesting.

-Gumboot

[defaultdotxbe]

well actually i think NIST says it wasnt a pancake collapse, but there are 2 different definitions floating around, one is a technical engineering term, which WTC wasnt, one is more of a laymans term, which WTC was

[defaultdotxbe]

gumboot: you might find this debris picture interesting:

http://www.amny.com/media/photo/2006-08/24912509.jpg

you can clearly see 2 concrete floorslabs and what remains of floor trusses in between them

[einsteen]

what else do you expect, if a whole building collapses that there are not 2 pieces that touch each other ?

[defaultdotxbe]

what else do you expect, if a whole building collapses that there are not 2 pieces that touch each other ?
show me a similar picture of debris from a controlled demolition

[einsteen]

If the whole building ended at the bottom like a closed bandoneon

http://www.elortiba.org/graph/piazzolla2.jpg

then we have a proof.

[Garb]

If the whole building ended at the bottom like a closed bandoneon

http://www.elortiba.org/graph/piazzolla2.jpg

then we have a proof.

Nice red x.

[einsteen]

ok a new one then

http://www.spectropop.com/tico/Gallery/Astor%20Piazzolla.jpg

[Garb]

ok a new one then

http://www.spectropop.com/tico/Gallery/Astor%20Piazzolla.jpg

I must say that is a spitting image of the WTC towers.

[uk_dave]

ok a new one then

http://www.spectropop.com/tico/Gallery/Astor%20Piazzolla.jpg

That's one hell of a moustache.

[Pyrrho]

What? Isn't that what he essentially said? Remove one piece and the rest falls?

Btw, what caused all that dust?
Yeah, I know he's banned, but...

The buildings weren't only concrete and structural steel. The office walls were typical "gypsum" walls...crush some drywall sometime, it's essentially chalk. Crushes to powder. Then there's the dust and dirt that just naturally resides in buildings that have been standing for more than 20 years.

I mean, where do people think all the dust came from? Buildings fall down, you get clouds of dust. They demolished two small buildings (Williamson Building and Cuyahoga Building) in downtown Cleveland in preparation for building an office tower (Standard Oil Building, now the BP Building) and the entire Public Square was quickly covered in a huge cloud of dust, raising serious concerns that the dust could ignite like a grain elevator dust explosion.

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=164255

Anyway...it may seem pointless to keep explaining these trivia in response to repeated questions that have already been answered, but there is some value in repeating some rational explanations that have real basis in fact.

Some dust:

http://www.pahighways.com/features/threeriversstadium.html

scroll down to the pictures


Another site:

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/minres/districts/Blasting/ThreeRivers/TRSMain.htm

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/02/11/three.rivers.stadium.02/

Lest anyone get confused, DUST is not an indicator of CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.