please debunk 'the second debris field for 93' please

[alexg]

I've searched the forum but there is so much to go through. Was an engine found 2000 ft away, if so why? I get the light debris was carried by the wind but any thought on this will be appreciated too. Thanks.

[Bell]

I've searched the forum but there is so much to go through. Was an engine found 2000 ft away, if so why? I get the light debris was carried by the wind but any thought on this will be appreciated too. Thanks.

You mean the engine that was found in/near a lake?

I've never studied that, but I guess the stresses on the airplane, flying upside down at times, could have ripped off one of the engines, which then continued on his own way.

But that's just my guesstimate...

[Gravy]

The bottom line is that the "8-mile debris field" is completely bogus. There were a few small pieces of paper and scraps of nylon that made it that far from the crash site, borne by the wind, and some slightly heavier debris in the more immediate area. A large part of one engine bounced about 300 yards downhill, in the direction of impact. According to the plane's flight data recorder, the engines and other systems were operating within normal parameters when the plane struck the ground at a 40-degree angle, upside-down, at 580 mph.

[alexg]

The bottom line is that the "8-mile debris field" is completely bogus. There were a few small pieces of paper and scraps of nylon that made it that far from the crash site, borne by the wind, and some slightly heavier debris in the more immediate area. A large part of one engine bounced about 300 yards downhill, in the direction of impact. According to the plane's flight data recorder, the engines and other systems were operating within normal parameters when the plane struck the ground at a 40-degree angle, upside-down, at 580 mph.

Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh?
Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again.

[Bell]

Ehm... how would I come up with the notion of an engine found in/near a lake?

I want somebody to debunk me, real bad...

[T.A.M.]

ever skim a flat rock off the water?

TAM

[Bell]

ever skim a flat rock off the water?

TAM

That's not what I meant. I remember reading somewhere (prolly on a CT site :rolleyes: ) that an engine of the plane was found X distance away from the crash site. IIRC it was said to be in/near a lake?

[alexg]

That's not what I meant. I remember reading somewhere (prolly on a CT site :rolleyes: ) that an engine of the plane was found X distance away from the crash site. IIRC it was said to be in/near a lake?

I heard the tiny amount of lightweight debris was in a lake 3 miles away and the engine was only 2000 feet away, no mention of lake.

[alexg]

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flight93witnesses.html

Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas?

[Gravy]

Ehm... how would I come up with the notion of an engine found in/near a lake?

I want somebody to debunk me, real bad...It was a little pond, towards the lake.

[Bell]

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flight93witnesses.html

Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas?

I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane?

[gumboot]

It was a little pond, towards the lake.


It is interesting how "piece of engine 300m away in pond" turns into "second debris field including engine found miles away in lake".

Chinese Whispers is a CTers friend.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh?
Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again.Here's a link in this gumboot post: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1857499&postcount=76

[Bell]

It was a little pond, towards the lake.

And not that far away from the crash site I guess? At least not many thousands of feet (meters?)?

[alexg]

May be a stupid question but any chance it would break sound barrier in a full on dive?

ETA I suppose not, FDR didn't indicate that much speed did it?

[Bell]

It is interesting how "piece of engine 300m away in pond" turns into "second debris field including engine found miles away in lake".

Chinese Whispers is a CTers friend.

-Gumboot

Ah! That's all there's to it? You make debunking too easy ;)

[Gravy]

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flight93witnesses.html

Here a number of eyewitnesses report loud sounds before impact and of course CTs are yelling 'missile' - any ideas?My idea is that none of those people had ever heard an airliner screaming overhead at low altitude at 500 knots. Remember that many of the CT sites haven't been updated since the CVR, FDR and radar info was released...nor will they ever be, most likely.

[gumboot]

May be a stupid question but any chance it would break sound barrier in a full on dive?


I imagine it's possible... though I suspect at low altitude the wings would tear off first. However I don't believe UA93 went supersonic at any point.

In my experience with eye witnesses, they are very unreliable. Basically, if everyone gives a variation on a particular detail, you can be pretty confident that detail is accurate. If one or two people mention a particular thing, that testimony alone is not sufficient to substantiate the accuracy.

In other words, if every witness of UA93's crash reported hearing explosions before impact, I'd say there was something to their claims. If 1% of witnesses report explosions, I'd say it's likely they're just mistaken.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane?If they're bothering you, you can make them change their flight path by pointing a laser at the cockpit.



Disclaimer to FAA, Interpol, etc.: :notm

[Kryptos]

Here's the pond, I think, on the left:

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/f/ff/Flight93memorialpano-small.jpg

This (attempt at making a panoramic) looks to the east (left) from the Flight 93 memorial towards the pond and to the south towards where the plane crashed down by the trees (right).

Here's the full size image (http://debunk911myths.org/images/Flight93memorialpano.jpg). (2.2 mb)

[Bell]

If they're bothering you, you can make them change their flight path by pointing a laser at the cockpit.



Disclaimer to FAA, Interpol, etc.: :notm

As for now, I'll just try to talk them into taking another flight path as soon as I pick them up with my fillings (http://www.warphead.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=803).

[Bell]

Here's the pond, I think, on the left:

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/f/ff/Flight93memorialpano-small.jpg

This (attempt at making a panoramic) looks to the east (left) from the Flight 93 memorial towards the pond and to the south towards where the plane crashed down by the trees (right).

Here's the full size image (http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/index.php?title=Image:Flight93memorialpano.jpg).

Thanks for posting that, Kate (the link doesn't work btw).

Could somebody tell what part of the engine was found in that pound?

[MarkyX]

Thanks all. That the FDR showed all engines operational would seem to defeat any idea of the engine having been shot off with a sidewinder, eh?
Where might I get a link to the FDR data for 93 if this is not too much tio ask? Thanks again.

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc04.pdf

[Kryptos]

Thanks for posting that, Kate (the link doesn't work btw).

Could somebody tell what part of the engine was found in that pound?

Fixed the link (http://debunk911myths.org/images/Flight93memorialpano.jpg) (it's a big file, 2.2 mb)

What part of the engine?

Can't find much on that, but this quote from a newspaper article:

A section of the engine, weighing almost a tonne, was found on the bed of a pond 200 metres downhill. [1] (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/10/1031608245087.html)
And, this figure (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=8) from Popular Mechanics, which tells me that I pointed out the wrong pond. There's another smaller pond, downwind (and down flightpath) where the engine part was found.

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/4/42/Flight93map.jpg


Pond #1 is in my picture, and pond #2 is where the engine part was found.

[Kryptos]

...the hill also slopes down from the crash impact site to the pond

so the engine part was found ~200 meters:

* down wind
* down flight path
* down hill

from the point of impact.

[Bell]

Fixed the link (http://debunk911myths.org/images/Flight93memorialpano.jpg) (it's a big file, 2.2 mb)

What part of the engine?

Can't find much on that, but this quote from a newspaper article:


And, this figure (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=8) from Popular Mechanics, which tells me that I pointed out the wrong pond. There's another smaller pond, downwind (and down flightpath) where the engine part was found.

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/4/42/Flight93map.jpg


Pond #1 is in my picture, and pond #2 is where the engine part was found.


That seems totaly possible to me.

Very good picture, btw.

[LashL]

I live in the path of one of the approach routes for Schiphol airport (the Netherlands). Sometimes the planes sound like they are coming straight at my appartment building, sometimes they sound likes trucks, sometimes the fly over high, sometimes very low. The engines of the planes can make all kind of sounds. Is the throttle open or closed? Or is it opened or closed right at the moment you hear the plane?

Hey, I've been on flights into Schiphol a few times ~ sorry to have disturbed you ;)

But on one of those trips, several years ago, I celebrated my 25th birthday in Amsterdam, so.... sorry, but it was worth it :D

/derail

[Bell]

Hey, I've been on flights into Schiphol a few times ~ sorry to have disturbed you ;)

A tat late, don't you think? I'll never sleep again.

ETA: I'm not gonna ask HOW you celebrated that birthday in Amsterdam...

[LashL]

A tat late, don't you think? I'll never sleep again.

ETA: I'm not gonna ask HOW you celebrated that birthday in Amsterdam...

I admit it ~ we didn't have the appropriate hush kits on the plane I was on, for landing after hours... but damn, what a birthday. (NOT what you're thinking!)

Edit to add: We did stroll through the red light district but didn't partake in those particular wares. The real fun was in (after finding and enjoying the restaurant that had been recommended as serving the best prime rib and steak dinners known to mankind, complete with the menu being written on chalk boards on the doors to the restrooms), the all night long trek across bridges and such to the numerous staggered-hours bars, before finally making it back to the hotel at nearly dawn... and then meeting and talking to Desmond Tutu in the lobby. Talk about a bizarre day and night!

[qarnos]

I admit it ~ we didn't have the appropriate hush kits on the plane I was on, for landing after hours... but damn, what a birthday. (NOT what you're thinking!)

Edit to add: We did stroll through the red light district but didn't partake in those particular wares. The real fun was in (after finding and enjoying the restaurant that had been recommended as serving the best prime rib and steak dinners known to mankind, complete with the menu being written on chalk boards on the doors to the restrooms), the all night long trek across bridges and such to the numerous staggered-hours bars, before finally making it back to the hotel at nearly dawn... and then meeting and talking to Desmond Tutu in the lobby. Talk about a bizarre day and night!

I was born in Holland but moved over to Australia when I was 3. I'm a citizen of Great Britain but have never set foot in the country. Work that one out!

[The_Fire]

Now that we are dealing with the flight 93 flightpath, could someone point me to the coordinates? I got something I wanna check out in connection with the "Second aircraft" claim............

[alexg]

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/flight_93.html

The above is the Bollyn article which, if you take it at face value, indicates all sorts of planes were flying around Shanksville, including a Warthog. I don't mean to spam the board with this stuff but I'm debating this guy and I'm a little new at debunking. Anyone already debunk this article? Thanks.

[The_Fire]

the trail I'm looking at is a small, local airport. I'm trying to figure out how close the two places are since an airport could explain various sightings of aircraft. I'm not 100 on how these things run, but I would believe that with the closing of the airspace that day, all small airborn planes within the US airspace would attempt to land at the nearest airstrip capable of their size.

[Gravy]

Here's some info on the two planes that were in the area:

The Dassault Falcon 20
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...rjetnat5p5.asp (http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp)
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2015461&postcount=341

The C-130 crew's report
http://tinyurl.com/mg4xh

[Kryptos]

FBI Explains Other Planes At Flight 93 Crash (http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/961654/detail.html) - WTAE-TV (September 15, 2001)
"WTAE-TV reported that the mystery pilot in the white plane may have been an area farmer.

James K. Will, a Berlin, Pa., farmer who pilots a white Cessna with red stripes and who has an airstrip near his farm, told Team 4 reporter Paul Van Osdol that he circled the scene about 45 minutes after the crash.

Will said he had just returned from Altoona and, when he'd heard about the crash, flew to the site to take photos of the wreckage. Pennsylvania State Police said that his plane may have been the one that many saw.

Will's flight was intercepted by a state police helicopter and was escorted to the Johnstown-area airport. His plane was searched and he was released."

[Gravy]

FBI Explains Other Planes At Flight 93 Crash (http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/961654/detail.html) - WTAE-TV (September 15, 2001) "WTAE-TV reported that the mystery pilot in the white plane may have been an area farmer.

James K. Will, a Berlin, Pa., farmer who pilots a white Cessna with red stripes and who has an airstrip near his farm, told Team 4 reporter Paul Van Osdol that he circled the scene about 45 minutes after the crash.

Will said he had just returned from Altoona and, when he'd heard about the crash, flew to the site to take photos of the wreckage. Pennsylvania State Police said that his plane may have been the one that many saw.

Will's flight was intercepted by a state police helicopter and was escorted to the Johnstown-area airport. His plane was searched and he was released."
Wow, somebody didn't get the no-fly order! I bet he longs for the barnstorming days.

[CurtC]

But of course Farmer Will's small plane would not have been the same small white plane reported by many witnesses very shortly after the crash. We know that was the Falcon which Gravy linked to.

I'm sure that Farmer Will thought he might have been the plane, but he prolly didn't know about the Falcon there long before him.