White terrorists don't make the news

[jay gw]

Two men were arrested in Lancashire last week in the biggest explosives haul ever found at a house in the UK.

A FORMER British National Party member has been accused of possessing the largest amount of chemical explosives of its type ever found in the country.

Robert Cottage, 49, of Talbot Street, Colne, appeared before Burnley magistrates last week charged with possession of an explosive substance.

Officers claim that their find is the largest haul of chemicals of its kind discovered.

The case has attracted little publicity as the national media continue to focus on Muslims.

Cottage reportedly drives disabled children to school. Police sealed off Cottage's home and were believed to have continued their search over the weekend. His Peugeot car has been taken away for examination.

Cottage was charged under the Explosives Substances Act 1883 last Monday. 22 chemical components are believed to have been recovered from his house.

http://libcom.org/news/bnp-election-candidate-arrested-in-biggest-explosives-haul-ever-11102006
http://www.blink.org.uk/pdescription.asp?key=12850&grp=66&cat=330

Very interesting how the media believes Whites cannot be terrorists.

I don't believe he's the only White Nationalist stockpiling explosives. I have a bad feeling about the years ahead....

[SteveGrenard]

Maybe he was going to try and kill gophers by blowing up their burrows. No, that was Bill Murray in Caddyshack.

[CplFerro]

Yes, those BNP members, when they're not busy with the nefarious work of cleaning up local parks and campaigning for sane immigration laws, they're plotting to blow up Big Ben V-for-Vendetta style.

[Dave1001]

To be fair, I doubt muslims/arab terrorists would have made the news if they hadn't already allegedly blown up the london subway/metro/underground.

[CplFerro]

Their most vocal members generally being anti-free speech, anti-female, and anti-Western Civ. psychotics doesn't help their image much.

[andyandy]

I don't believe he's the only White Nationalist stockpiling explosives. I have a bad feeling about the years ahead....

the media's too busy getting all worked up about a west yorks teaching assistant to pay much attention to stuff like that :)

[tkingdoll]

If the media believes whites cannot be terrorists, then where did I get all my knowledge of the IRA from????

[andyandy]

wow

Chemicals, a rocket launcher, BNP literature and a nuclear biological suit were found in a search of Jackson's house. It is not yet clear what the intended target of the explosives might have been, and police were keen to make it clear that anti-terrorist powers had not been used in the case.

my first reaction is that this can't be true because it's not been reported at all...i can't find it on any major news source.....but it does appear in local reports so it appears valid...

http://www.burnleycitizen.co.uk/display.var.951775.0.exbnp_man_faces_explosives_ch arge.php

http://www.pendletoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=8&ArticleID=1806619

Chemicals Find: Two In Court
TWO Pendle men have appeared before Pennine magistrates accused of having "a master plan" after what is believed to be a record haul of chemicals used in making home-made bombs was found in Colne.

Robert Cottage (49), of Talbot Street, Colne, and David Bolus Jackson (62), of Trent Road, Nelson, made separate appearances before the court charged with being in possession of an explosive substance for an unlawful purpose. The offences are under the Explosive Substances Act 1883.
Both men were remanded in custody to appear at Burnley Crown Court on October 23rd. Cottage was arrested at his home on Thursday, while retired dentist Jackson was arrested in the Lancaster area on Friday, the same day as he left a dental practice in Grange-over-Sands.
The 22 chemical components recovered by police are believed to be the largest haul ever found at a house in this country.
Cottage is an ex-BNP member who stood as a candidate in the Pendle Council elections in May.
Mrs Christiana Buchanan, who appeared for the prosecution in Jackson's case, alleged the pair had "some kind of masterplan".
She said a search of Jackson's home had uncovered rocket launchers, chemicals, BNP literature and a nuclear biological suit.
Police raided Cottage's Talbot Street home on Thursday of last week. The house was taped off while forensics officers searched the premises. Neighbours were told to stay in their homes for their own safety. Mr Cottage's car was also taken away for examination.
Officers also made a thorough examination of Jackson's Trent Road home and, again, officers were on duty outside the house. Forensics officers examined the property.
06 October 2006



i am truly amazed - how was this not front page news? :jaw-dropp

[schplurg]

Very interesting how the media believes Whites cannot be terrorists.

I don't believe he's the only White Nationalist stockpiling explosives. I have a bad feeling about the years ahead....It's because the whites aren't making enough terrorism news these days. How many bombs, subways, skyscrapers, have they claimed to have bombed recently? Yes, the media is focused on Muslims, big surprise.

[andyandy]

It's because the whites aren't making enough terrorism news these days. How many bombs, subways, skyscrapers, have they claimed to have bombed recently? Yes, the media is focused on Muslims, big surprise.

looks like "the whites" are planning to...

The 22 chemical components recovered by police are believed to be the largest haul ever found at a house in this country.
Cottage is an ex-BNP member who stood as a candidate in the Pendle Council elections in May.
Mrs Christiana Buchanan, who appeared for the prosecution in Jackson's case, alleged the pair had "some kind of masterplan".
She said a search of Jackson's home had uncovered rocket launchers, chemicals, BNP literature and a nuclear biological suit.

maybe the media should have a wider focus....

[andyandy]

this 12 line article appears to be the only national interest.....

Guardian, Friday October 13 2006

Now here's a conundrum: according to the Burnley Express, the Burnley Citizen and the Lancashire Telegraph, Robert Cottage, formerly of the BNP, and David Jackson, a retired dentist, appeared before magistrates last week accused of "possessing the largest amount of chemical explosive of its type ever found in Britain". A total of 22 chemical components were recovered from their homes, the papers reported, as well as rocket launchers, a nuclear/ biological protection suit and BNP literature. An exhaustive search of our extensive archives has failed to find a single mention of this in any national daily. Furthermore, Mr John Reid has not, to our knowledge, appeared on our TV screens to enlighten us as to the terrifying extent of this new threat to our nation's security. Then again, no one involved was a Muslim. Arf arf.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/diary/story/0,,1921188,00.html

[RyanRoberts]

It is amazing that it has not tranferred to the nationals. How is this not news?

[Meadmaker]

It's because the whites aren't making enough terrorism news these days. How many bombs, subways, skyscrapers, have they claimed to have bombed recently? Yes, the media is focused on Muslims, big surprise.

One. Oklahoma City. Granted it has been 12 years, and in another country, but it still should raise some eyebrows. It does seem like this should have been bigger news.

[SteveGrenard]

One. Oklahoma City. It does seem like this should have been bigger news.

Unless it's so big the authorities put a lid on it. Or the story was wrong to begin with. It remains to be seen.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Yes, those BNP members, when they're not busy with the nefarious work of cleaning up local parks and campaigning for sane immigration laws...
Profile: British National Party (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3896747.stm)

Under its current policy, the party backs an immediate halt to "all further non-white immigration" and the "voluntary resettlement" of non-whites to "their lands of ethnic origin".

The BNP's website states all members must be of "British or kindred European ethnic descent". BNP: A party on the fringe (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1507680.stm)

Formed in 1982 by John Tyndall, the British National Party's guiding principle has always been to oppose non-white immigration into the UK and endorse repatriation of blacks and Asians living in Britain.

But in the minds of the public it became inextricably linked with the National Front, which had been co-founded by Mr Tyndall in the 1960s and had a reputation for ruthless violence against immigrants.

As leader of the BNP, Mr Tyndall did nothing to assuage opinion, prepared as he was to be photographed in jackboots and armbands in front of pictures of Adolf Hitler.So, "cleaning up local parks" is a euphemism for beating up immigrants, right?

[yersinia29]

For eveyr white terrorist, there are 10 muslims.

SEriously, you list 10 newspaper articles about white terrorism from a certain time frame (say 5 years) and I'll easily be able to find 100 articles about muslim terrorists in the same time period.

[Silly Green Monkey]

'Muslim' is not a race, it is a religion. As such, muslims include any 'race' you choose.

The definition of 'white' includes Arabs, by the way.

[Pardalis]

In answer to the OP:

As if Timothy McVeigh never had never had any news coverage.

:rolleyes:

[andyandy]

In answer to the OP:

As if Timothy McVeigh never had never had any news coverage.

:rolleyes:

The point the OP was making (and making well) was that if the two men had been arrested with a huge amount of chemicals (usable for explosives), rocket launchers and a nuclear/bio suit and had been muslim, then this would have been front page - stop the press - news. As it is it's not made the nationals at all. That to me is incredible. Not only does it represent just as serious a terrorist threat as if the guys had been muslim, but it also represents a potential paradigm shift how "terrorists" are viewed in the UK today. A possible adoption of terrorist tactics by white-rascists (with links to a political far-right party) or by other disaffected groups distinct from either religious-driven or land-driven terrorism is and should be something that deserves attention.....

[Skeptic]

The real problem is not that white terrorists don't make the news, it is that terrorism against non-westerners doesn't make the news unless it can be somehow linked to the west (e.g., if it's allegedly due to America invading Iraq, or if the terrorists themselves are westerners). If it's "only" non-westerners killing other non-westerners, it's page 28, below an ad for a new kind of vodka.

[Darat]

Their most vocal members generally being anti-free speech, anti-female, and anti-Western Civ. psychotics doesn't help their image much.

A very concise and accurate description of the BNP!

[Darat]

It's because the whites aren't making enough terrorism news these days. How many bombs, subways, skyscrapers, have they claimed to have bombed recently? Yes, the media is focused on Muslims, big surprise.

Last successful terrorist incidence in the UK was by "white Christian terrorists"...

I have to add I'm like a couple of other UK members - very surprised this didn't seem to make the major media outlets - rocket launchers!!

[Darat]

One. Oklahoma City. Granted it has been 12 years, and in another country, but it still should raise some eyebrows. It does seem like this should have been bigger news.

Er... you do know there is a world outside the USA borders? ;)

(ETA - Sorry that sounded very snide - I've added a smilie to try and indicate it was meant in jest.)

[Darat]

I've just sent an email to the BBC, Guardian, Daily Mail & The Times asking if they were aware of this story and if so how come they decided not to run with it.

If I get any responses I'll post them here.

[andyandy]

I've just sent an email to the BBC, Guardian, Daily Mail & The Times asking if they were aware of this story and if so how come they decided not to run with it.

If I get any responses I'll post them here.

nice one - i was going to, but hadn't got round to it :D

i'm amazed it's not considered newsworthy......

[sophia8]

Compare and Contrast (http://www.valdobson.co.uk/2006/10/14/compare-and-contrast/)
Why the story didn't make the nationals (http://www.asiansinmedia.org/news/article.php/current_affairs/1485):It may have been that because the police subsequently played down the arrests the story was not picked up.

Once the national media did get wind of the story through blogs it was old news. Firstly, I was told, they have to be contemporaneous with stories. Secondly, digging into the story once the men had been remanded in custody for a few days may jeapordise a fair trial and be in contempt of court.

Admittedly, for a large organisation such as the BBC, this is a very poor excuse. But given that I spoke to people genuinely interested in running the story, it seems like the most plausible one.

This also makes it difficult to ask too many questions now about the arrests or the impending trial in case it looks like an editorial could influence the trial. Only basic facts, as the Asian Image reported, can be allowed.

[Tricky]

Wasn't Britain's most famous terrorist, Guy Fawkes a white man?

[Darat]

Wasn't Britain's most famous terrorist, Guy Fawkes a white man?

And we will be burning him again in just over a week, alongside effigies of the Pope...

[simonmaal]

Interesting how this has been made into a polemical discussion, with white people on one side and Muslims on the other. How odd.

Additionally, I'm trying to find the statistics on "number of innocent Muslims killed on buses, trains, planes and pizza restauarants by BNP terrorists", but my Google searches thus far have not shown up any results. Care to discuss why you think one person with a bunch of explosives is an equitable comparison with a worldwide religious brainwashing organisation with the blood of millions on its hands? I look forward to hearing how you can make this balancing act work...

[simonmaal]

The point the OP was making (and making well) was that if the two men had been arrested with a huge amount of chemicals (usable for explosives), rocket launchers and a nuclear/bio suit and had been muslim, then this would have been front page - stop the press - news

Sorry, this is pure speculation. Can you substantiate this claim of yours?

[Darat]

Compare and Contrast (http://www.valdobson.co.uk/2006/10/14/compare-and-contrast/)
Why the story didn't make the nationals (http://www.asiansinmedia.org/news/article.php/current_affairs/1485):

Thanks for that but it doesn't quite wash. As far as I know the national newspapers still monitor stories in the local press as well as read up coming court calendars so I can't believe they only heard about the story via blogs.

As for the "contemporaneous" excuse well considering we have a thread here inspired by a Mail article (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66779) that appeared 21st October about a BBC event that had already been reported on that happened a month ago (and indeed the very questions from the summit had been reported on at the start of the month) then their concept of "contemporaneous" seems to be a bit flexible...

[Darat]

...snip...

Additionally, I'm trying to find the statistics on "number of innocent Muslims killed on buses, trains, planes and pizza restauarants by BNP terrorists", but my Google searches thus far have not shown up any results. Care to discuss why you think one person with a bunch of explosives is an equitable comparison with a worldwide religious brainwashing organisation with the blood of millions on its hands? I look forward to hearing how you can make this balancing act work...

Since no one has claimed this why should anyone try to support it? Your comments and questions are a strawman.

[simonmaal]

Since no one has claimed this why should anyone try to support it? Your comments and questions are a strawman.

Nice attempt at creating an ingroup-outgroup split there :p

The original claim was that, if Muslims had been caught with the same materials, it would be front page news:

The case has attracted little publicity as the national media continue to focus on Muslims... Very interesting how the media believes Whites cannot be terrorists...I don't believe he's the only White Nationalist stockpiling explosives. I have a bad feeling about the years ahead....Two issues here: historical precedent and the ability to actually carry out an attack. Not forgetting, of course, the highly speculative and subjective nature of the comments.

So my comments and questions are absolutely central to the issue.

[Darat]

Nice attempt at creating an ingroup-outgroup split there :p


I was just pointing out that you made an argument up that you claimed people were making when they were not. Misunderstanding an argument is one thing making one up is something else.


The original claim was that, if Muslims had been caught with the same materials, it would be front page news. Two issues here: historical precedent and the ability to actually carry out an attack.

So my comments and questions are absolutely central to the issue.

But this is not what you did you made an argumnet up i.e:

Additionally, I'm trying to find the statistics on "number of innocent Muslims killed on buses, trains, planes and pizza restauarants by BNP terrorists", but my Google searches thus far have not shown up any results.


No one had said BNP terrorists had killed anyone.


Care to discuss why you think one person with a bunch of explosives is an equitable comparison with a worldwide religious brainwashing organisation with the blood of millions on its hands?

No one had made this claim so your attempt at attributing this to someone is a strawman.


I look forward to hearing how you can make this balancing act work

Why should anyone address your strawman?

[simonmaal]

But this is not what you did you made an argumnet up i.e:

Additionally, I'm trying to find the statistics on "number of innocent Muslims killed on buses, trains, planes and pizza restauarants by BNP terrorists", but my Google searches thus far have not shown up any results.

No one had said BNP terrorists had killed anyone.

The claim was that they are about to. Did you miss that?

Care to discuss why you think one person with a bunch of explosives is an equitable comparison with a worldwide religious brainwashing organisation with the blood of millions on its hands?

No one had made this claim so your attempt at attributing this to someone is a strawman.

I refer you to the statement I just made above.

I look forward to hearing how you can make this balancing act work

Why should anyone address your strawman?

You're deliberately avoiding the most important issue here.

[Darat]

The claim was that they are about to. Did you miss that?


So as I said the claim (whatever it was) was not the claim you made it out to be - i.e. you introduced a straw-man.


I refer you to the statement I just made above.


Therefore as I said you introduced a straw-man.


You're deliberately avoiding the most important issue here.

I'm not avoiding anything - I just pointing out you've made up a position and then attempted to attack that position. If you have a point to make then do so without making stuff up and I'll try to address it.

[simonmaal]

I'm not avoiding anything - I just pointing out you've made up a position and then attempted to attack that position. If you have a point to make then do so without making stuff up and I'll try to address it.

If you want it to be made up, then that's fine, be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that the post that began this thread was highly speculative, relative and subjective. The following thread is quite interesting in the light of the current discussion:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66836

[andyandy]

Sorry, this is pure speculation. Can you substantiate this claim of yours?

??

er...remember Forest Gate?

I'll help refresh your memory....

The brothers, who had been held under the Terrorism Act 2000, were released on Friday after police found no trace of an alleged chemical device at their home.

The pair had denied allegations of involvement in terrorism.

They were arrested on 2 June after a raid by some 250 officers - some armed and some wearing chemical suits - on a terraced house in Lansdown Road.

They are still recovering from their injuries - both physically as well as mentally

Humeya Kalam

Their sister Humeya Kalam issued a statement on their behalf which was read aloud to demonstrators.

massive, front page news - and they didn't even have any explosives/chemicals - let alone rocket launchers or bio suits....(or in fact anything...)

[Darat]

If you want it to be made up, then that's fine, be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that the post that began this thread was highly speculative, relative and subjective.



But subsequently supported by facts: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2028932#post2028932


The following thread is quite interesting in the light of the current discussion:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66836

Why?

[andyandy]

Nice attempt at creating an ingroup-outgroup split there :p

The original claim was that, if Muslims had been caught with the same materials, it would be front page news:

Two issues here: historical precedent and the ability to actually carry out an attack. Not forgetting, of course, the highly speculative and subjective nature of the comments.

So my comments and questions are absolutely central to the issue.

just to get this straight, you're arguing that in the scenario;

2 men caught with x amount of chemicals (usable for explosives)
along with rocket launchers
and bio/nuclear suit

that because they're not muslims that this is not a major issue? That you would be less likely to suspect terrorist aims?

Could you explain why someone would have such items in their house, if not for nefarious purpose? And why you believe that historical precedent is relevant? And on what grounds you would doubt an individual's ability to carry out any attack?

and yes, of course it's speculative - but this is not relevant to the argument that it is still newsworthy.

[jay gw]

if the two men had been arrested with a huge amount of chemicals (usable for explosives), rocket launchers and a nuclear/bio suit and had been muslim, then this would have been front page - stop the press - news.

It is beyond strange that the major UK media decided not to run the story, nor did the major US media.

[Darth Rotor]

2 men caught with x amount of chemicals (usable for explosives)
along with rocket launchers
and bio/nuclear suit

Could you explain why someone would have such items in their house, if not for nefarious purpose?
Halloween party preparations, and a Guy Fawkes re enactment kit? :confused:

DR

[RyanRoberts]

Hmm, shouldn't the title of the thread be 'non Muslim terrorists don't make the news'. White people have been charged in both the recent aeroplane plot and the jihad training camp.

[brodski]

Halloween party preparations, and a Guy Fawkes re enactment kit? :confused:

DR

using the defence "I'm not a terrorist, I just want to act out the life of Guy Fawlks" many not be the best idea. ;)

[Pardalis]

The point the OP was making (and making well) was that if the two men...
edited for space


Point well taken. :)

[jay gw]

Some might conclude that the British National Party has enough sympathizers in the major UK media to count on cover ups.

[simonmaal]

just to get this straight, you're arguing that in the scenario;

2 men caught with x amount of chemicals (usable for explosives)
along with rocket launchers
and bio/nuclear suit

that because they're not muslims that this is not a major issue? That you would be less likely to suspect terrorist aims?

No, no, no, no! That's not what I'm arguing at all! What I am saying is that colour of the skin is irrelevant, but subscription to religion IS. Now, we could say that the BNP is an institution that encourages social division, elitism and inter-culture conflict. On that score, it is perhaps the equivalent of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. But it is a massively insignificant organisation when compared with these religions. There is little evidence to suggest the BNP is a terrorist organisation (remember these people were EX BNP, not current members). Now, that does not mean that the BNP will not ever get involved with paramilitary activity, but there is currently no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. In contrast, there is plenty of evidence that Islamic radicals aim to destroy as many 'infidels' as possible. Rather like the Spanish inquisition and the witch hunts. Do you get me? I'm saying that religious brainwashing is the dangerous factor; the colour of the skin is entirely irrelevant!!!

[simonmaal]

But subsequently supported by facts: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2028932#post2028932

Why?


How many people have the BNP killed so far?
How many people have died as a result of religious fascism (and it isn't only Islam)?

[andyandy]

No, no, no, no! That's not what I'm arguing at all! What I am saying is that colour of the skin is irrelevant, but subscription to religion IS. Now, we could say that the BNP is an institution that encourages social division, elitism and inter-culture conflict. On that score, it is perhaps the equivalent of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. But it is a massively insignificant organisation when compared with these religions. There is little evidence to suggest the BNP is a terrorist organisation (remember these people were EX BNP, not current members). Now, that does not mean that the BNP will not ever get involved with paramilitary activity, but there is currently no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. In contrast, there is plenty of evidence that Islamic radicals aim to destroy as many 'infidels' as possible. Rather like the Spanish inquisition and the witch hunts. Do you get me? I'm saying that religious brainwashing is the dangerous factor; the colour of the skin is entirely irrelevant!!!

ok well, we're agreeing about the skin colour not being the key point here - the OP title would be better served with "non-muslim" - but the non-muslim angle is apparent from the actual OP post.

Whether the BNP is directly involved in this or whether this is a disaffected splinter fringe, or whether it's just an ex-member acting solely of his own volition is still largely irrelevant as to the question as to the newsworthyness of this piece - in any case it deserves headline status.....

from your fiery polemic about "brainwashing organisation with the blood of millions on their hands" i can only assume you are talking about Islam as a whole and not al qaeda or some such radical group - simply because you talk about the death of millions.....i'm not sure to the accuracy of this claim with regards to islam, but if we are to start with comparative victimologies, then i would postulate that christianity would be up there in the "blood on the hands" rhetoric......
in such a case can we assume that you would take this case more seriously if the men are in fact religious of some description - the bloodier the religion the more serious the threat? Christians would appear have the terrorist historical precedent that you demanded earlier.......and certainly fulfil most bloody quotas....

in any case, the argument which you seem to have missed is over the news-worthness of this event. Do you not regard it as newsworthy? Chemical stockpiles, rocket launchers and bio suits just an everyday occurance? Boys will be boys eh?

[simonmaal]

Hmm, shouldn't the title of the thread be 'non Muslim terrorists don't make the news'. White people have been charged in both the recent aeroplane plot and the jihad training camp.

Hi Ryan.

I'm glad at least somebody has read the original post properly! Everbody else seems to have missed the vital whites-Muslims dichotomy.

[simonmaal]

ok well, we're agreeing about the skin colour not being the key point here - the OP title would be better served with "non-muslim" - but the non-muslim angle is apparent from the actual OP post.

The OP referred to White nationalist terrorists not making the news, not non-Muslims, so yes I agree with you there. But let us address the significance of the white-Muslim dichotomy by taking a look at the following figures:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

I've kind of skirted round this issue in the hope that somebody would bring up Israel, the IRA, UVF or Red Hand Gang, but it seems it's not going to happen. I do agree that the 'enemy' seems to get more press. Is this a heuristic, a demonstration of ingroup favouritism and outgroup demonisation, or is there some statistical factor(s) that make this the case? Certainly in the case of Israel, it would seem the former; how often do we hear of Palestinian children being killed by the Israel military? Not very often, and this leads us to the assumption that the Palestinians (hence Muslims) are doing all the killing, but the following link suggests this is not the case:

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440

As regards the troubles in Ireland, the following speaks for itself:

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/major_killings.html

Here in the UK, we never got to find out when Loyalist paramilitaries murdered people, but the IRA made the news most times.

Whether the BNP is directly involved in this or whether this is a disaffected splinter fringe, or whether it's just an ex-member acting solely of his own volition is still largely irrelevant as to the question as to the newsworthyness of this piece - in any case it deserves headline status.....Yes, but the above prejudice-significance dialectic needs to be entered into, as does a consideration of other things happening in the world at the same time.

from your fiery polemic about "brainwashing organisation with the blood of millions on their hands" i can only assume you are talking about Islam as a whole and not al qaeda or some such radical group - simply because you talk about the death of millionsYes indeed.

.....i'm not sure to the accuracy of this claim with regards to islamI'm very confident about this claim; I can provide many resources, but the following is a list of attacks by Muslims that that were also deemed 'not newsworthy':

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/books/gst/atro-02.htm

but if we are to start with comparative victimologies, then i would postulate that christianity would be up there in the "blood on the hands" rhetoric......Most definitely, but we are discussing Islam at the moment.

in such a case can we assume that you would take this case more seriously if the men are in fact religious of some description - the bloodier the religion the more serious the threat? Christians would appear have the terrorist historical precedent that you demanded earlier.......and certainly fulfil most bloody quotas....Yes, hence my earlier discussion of Northern Ireland and Palestine.

in any case, the argument which you seem to have missed is over the news-worthness of this event. Do you not regard it as newsworthy? Chemical stockpiles, rocket launchers and bio suits just an everyday occurance? Boys will be boys eh?Yes it's newsworthy, but the points I have raised serve as caveats when addressing the question 'why was this not reported'?

[Darat]

No, no, no, no! That's not what I'm arguing at all! What I am saying is that colour of the skin is irrelevant,


I agree skin colour should be irrelevant...


but subscription to religion IS.


... as should religion be - threats should be assessed on what threat they pose not what religion the person posing the threat is.


Now, we could say that the BNP is an institution that encourages social division, elitism and inter-culture conflict.


I agree it is.


On that score, it is perhaps the equivalent of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.


In some way but all groups can be considered similar in some ways.


But it is a massively insignificant organisation when compared with these religions.


The BNP has elected officials in the UK system of government.


There is little evidence to suggest the BNP is a terrorist organisation


True.

(remember these people were EX BNP, not current members).


Apparently not true - they were still members (see the links provided earlier in the thread).


Now, that does not mean that the BNP will not ever get involved with paramilitary activity, but there is currently no evidence whatsoever that this is the case.


Apart from the fact that some members of the organisation have been found to have large amounts of materials to make explosives, a rocket launcher etc....


In contrast, there is plenty of evidence that Islamic radicals aim to destroy as many 'infidels' as possible.


Hold on a moment - until members of the BNP carry out a major attack we will never have the same evidence as we do for Islamic terrorists. I'm not trying to generate a straw man here but consider what you are saying and reason it through - following this line of reasoning would lead to a conclusion that until attacks take place they should not be considered a risk and I'm sure you realise that would be a wrong conclusion?


Rather like the Spanish inquisition and the witch hunts. Do you get me? I'm saying that religious brainwashing is the dangerous factor; the colour of the skin is entirely irrelevant!!!

It's not the "religious" part of the brainwashing that is the problem it is the brainwashing that is the problem. All ideologies (whether they be religious or political or even economic) help provide some of the tools that enable people to be warped and directed into terrorism.

[simonmaal]

OK, we seem to be finding some common ground here, so I'll conclude with a quick discussion of your final paragraphs:

SNIP

Hold on a moment - until members of the BNP carry out a major attack we will never have the same evidence as we do for Islamic terrorists. I'm not trying to generate a straw man here but consider what you are saying and reason it through - following this line of reasoning would lead to a conclusion that until attacks take place they should not be considered a risk and I'm sure you realise that would be a wrong conclusion?Good point. But the BNP has thus far chosen to ue the democratic route to power. Of course, any divisive ideology can fuel violence and hatred.

It's not the "religious" part of the brainwashing that is the problem it is the brainwashing that is the problem. All ideologies (whether they be religious or political or even economic) help provide some of the tools that enable people to be warped and directed into terrorism.Yes indeed, I agree with you totally. For example, the Chinese thought reform program was not based on any religion (in fact, it was rabidly atheist), but it did employ exactly the same tactics: erode a person's autonomous sense of right and wrong, attack their family and culture as being 'wrong' and destined for some kind of unpleasant fate, pour an endless amount of guilt onto the victim (using a combination of fear tactics and praise). Finally, the victim feels a huge emotional release at the point of 'confession' and adoption of the new ideas; perhaps this release is what is described as 'religious ecstasy'.

It is little wonder that starving, desperate, depressed (and often bereaved) young men are ensnared by right-wing Arab political groups; their emotional distress makes them ideal targets for this kind of coercion. But I am not singling out Islam; it is one toxic ideology amonst many others than can be used to nefarious ends. It's just that the current discussion is about Islam; for Islam, you could substitute Christianity, Judaism, Shintoism, and to a lesser extent, Hinduism and Sikhism. You could also include Communism, Nazism and social psychology!

[andyandy]

.I'm very confident about this claim; I can provide many resources, but the following is a list of attacks by Muslims that that were also deemed 'not newsworthy':

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/books/gst/atro-02.htm



you seem to be conflating several issues here - how is a list of repressive acts carried out by Muslims in 1947 in the Indian sub-continent relevant to a discussion of that which is regarded "newsworthy" in the British press in 2006?
How is "blood on the hands" rhetoric relevant to this debate over newsworthiness?

On one hand you seem to suggest that this is not a big story because these people are not (as far as we know) religious - and as such are less of a potential threat, and yet on the other hand you're suggesting that religion itself is not important - but instead it's the social conditioning that is the key factor....

and on one hand you claim that there is no evidence to link these men to the BNP, and yet on the other you ask us to compare the numbers of deaths the BNP is responsible for - relative to all religious people ever.....

[Beerina]

Wasn't Britain's most famous terrorist, Guy Fawkes a white man?

That V guy never took off his mask, and even if he had, he was horribly burned, so we wouldn't have known. There are some reports he may have even been a machine in a human body.

[brodski]

That V guy never took off his mask, and even if he had, he was horribly burned, so we wouldn't have known. There are some reports he may have even been a machine in a human body.

You do realise that, despite what the CTers would have you believe, V for Vendetta wasn't a documentary, right? ;)

[Tricky]

You do realise that, despite what the CTers would have you believe, V for Vendetta wasn't a documentary, right? ;)

Well, not yet anyway.

[jay gw]

If there's another incident involving the BNP and arms stockpiling, how long do you think it would take until they're listed as a terrorist organization?

[brodski]

If there's another incident involving the BNP and arms stockpiling, how long do you think it would take until they're listed as a terrorist organization?

There have been other incidents of BNP and ex BNP members stockpiling weapons and in at least one case carrying out a series of terrorist attacks (Brixton, Brick lane and Soho), however the fact that the BNP has a propensity to attract violent thugs and terrorists, doesn't make it a terrorist organization. You would have to link terrorist plots to the party organization, rather than to members or former members. In other words the BNP will become labeled a terrorist organization the week after the Democratic Unionist Party is.

[ponderingturtle]

If the media believes whites cannot be terrorists, then where did I get all my knowledge of the IRA from????

Well for a long time the Irish were not concidered white, so mabey it is a continuance of those beliefs?

[ponderingturtle]

looks like "the whites" are planning to...



ANd when they demonstrate enough competence to pull it off again it will get more focus. Just ask McVeigh

[ponderingturtle]

The definition of 'white' includes Arabs, by the way.

Wrong the definition of white depends on who is useing it. For example the same person could be viewed as black in the US, White in brazil and colored(a group distinct from black and white) in south africa.

There was a time when the irish where not concidered to be white.

[ponderingturtle]

Nice attempt at creating an ingroup-outgroup split there :p

The original claim was that, if Muslims had been caught with the same materials, it would be front page news:


How much of that is the news agencies fault and how much is it that if muslims had been caught in such a situation, major public officials would be calling press conferences to show how they are winning the war on terrorism?

[ponderingturtle]

just to get this straight, you're arguing that in the scenario;

2 men caught with x amount of chemicals (usable for explosives)
along with rocket launchers
and bio/nuclear suit

that because they're not muslims that this is not a major issue? That you would be less likely to suspect terrorist aims?


Who called press conferences for this case vs who would have press conferences if it had been muslims?

[ponderingturtle]

It is beyond strange that the major UK media decided not to run the story, nor did the major US media.

It does not help either administration, so they are not promoteing it.

[brodski]

How much of that is the news agencies fault and how much is it that if muslims had been caught in such a situation, major public officials would be calling press conferences to show how they are winning the war on terrorism?

That does appear to be at least part of what happened here, the police (apparently) played down the significance of this to the media. Given that this happened in Burnley, an area with a recent history of racial conflict and an area with significant far right sympathies, I can think of a number of why the police may have chosen to do this.

[brodski]

Who called press conferences for this case vs who would have press conferences if it had been muslims?

It does not help either administration, so they are not promoteing it.

The decision not to publicize seems to have been originally taken by the police, rather than the Government.

[Darat]

Well for a long time the Irish were not concidered white, so mabey it is a continuance of those beliefs?

When was this?

[ponderingturtle]

When was this?

Around in the ninteenth century. Well such formal catagories as white vs not white where not what they are now, but they where certainly seen as being less that fully human.

[ponderingturtle]

The decision not to publicize seems to have been originally taken by the police, rather than the Government.

Neither choose to publicize it, each for their own reasons. Do you think the police could have stopped politicians from useing this if they thought it would help them?

[firecoins]

these terrorists need to be in the news. UK is being threatened, not just the Queen and Britons need to not be blown up for some stupid political cause, unless George Bush tell them too!

[Darat]

Around in the ninteenth century. Well such formal catagories as white vs not white where not what they are now, but they where certainly seen as being less that fully human.

I've been looking for a reference to this can you provide me with one?

[simonmaal]

.

you seem to be conflating several issues here - how is a list of repressive acts carried out by Muslims in 1947 in the Indian sub-continent relevant to a discussion of that which is regarded "newsworthy" in the British press in 2006?
How is "blood on the hands" rhetoric relevant to this debate over newsworthiness?

I already explained that in an earlier post.

On one hand you seem to suggest that this is not a big story because these people are not (as far as we know) religious - and as such are less of a potential threat, and yet on the other hand you're suggesting that religion itself is not important - but instead it's the social conditioning that is the key factor....

and on one hand you claim that there is no evidence to link these men to the BNP, and yet on the other you ask us to compare the numbers of deaths the BNP is responsible for - relative to all religious people ever.....They aren't contradictory considerations.

[simonmaal]

There have been other incidents of BNP and ex BNP members stockpiling weapons and in at least one case carrying out a series of terrorist attacks (Brixton, Brick lane and Soho)

Evidence, please.

however the fact that the BNP has a propensity to attract violent thugs and terrorists, doesn't make it a terrorist organization. You would have to link terrorist plots to the party organization, rather than to members or former members. In other words the BNP will become labeled a terrorist organization the week after the Democratic Unionist Party is.

Interesting point. Was Sinn Fein ever considered a terrorist organisation?

[simonmaal]

How much of that is the news agencies fault and how much is it that if muslims had been caught in such a situation, major public officials would be calling press conferences to show how they are winning the war on terrorism?

Exactly! There are so many variables here that to distil it down to a Muslims-white dichotomy is to miss the point completely. Second, that particular dichotomy is rather racist.

[Darat]

Evidence, please.



Ex BNP Member: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland



Interesting point. Was Sinn Fein ever considered a terrorist organisation?

Not a simple question to answer - certain groups calling themselves Sinn Fein have been and for a long time there were many restrictions placed on today's political party called Sinn Fein and it's members (the silliest being when it was made illegal to broadcast them speaking - so the news reports of the time would report them making a speech and evening show them making a speech but in fact have a dubbed in actors voice speaking their words see:

[richardm]

Around in the ninteenth century. Well such formal catagories as white vs not white where not what they are now, but they where certainly seen as being less that fully human.

I'm not sure that they were literally thought of as being non-white, but they were called "white negroes" to express the disdain 'nice' people held them in (negroes being beyond the pale, naturally, and generally degenerate). I seem to recall that in the 17th Century some regarded the Irish as subhuman, but that was probably more political posturing rather than a sincerely held belief.

[richardm]

Evidence, please.


Some evidence (http://www.anl.org.uk/09-britain-nazis.htm)

Tony Lecomber, the BNP’s propaganda officer, was imprisoned for three years in 1986 for a nail bomb attack on a South London office. He was also convicted of making grenades, detonators and bombs [convicted on five counts in fact] and later for assaulting a Jewish teacher.

[andyandy]

Originally Posted by andyandy
.

you seem to be conflating several issues here - how is a list of repressive acts carried out by Muslims in 1947 in the Indian sub-continent relevant to a discussion of that which is regarded "newsworthy" in the British press in 2006?
How is "blood on the hands" rhetoric relevant to this debate over newsworthiness?

I already explained that in an earlier post.


Muslim repression in the Indian subcontinent in 1947 and an under-reported event involving 2 men found with chemicals and rocket launchers in the UK in 2006...
it's a stretch.....:)


There are so many variables here that to distil it down to a Muslims-white dichotomy is to miss the point completely. Second, that particular dichotomy is rather racist.

but it's fine to distill it down to "he believes in God, he's more dangerous than this man who doesn't"?

[RyanRoberts]

Interesting point. Was Sinn Fein ever considered a terrorist organisation?

By the security services, yes. Its founders were active high level members of the IRA, Mcguinness in particular. He was first nicked in a car carrying a large amount of explosives and ammunition. The Irish government accuse both him and Addams of being members of the 7 man IRA army council.

That's not quite the same as being a terrorist organisation, but that Sinn Fein is a section of the IRA wearing political hats is undeniable.

[ponderingturtle]

I've been looking for a reference to this can you provide me with one?

How the Irish Became White (http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Noel-Ignatiev/dp/0415918251)

THere does seem to be a book on the subject.