Southern Baptists convince gays 2 shift 2 heterosexuality???

[billiefan2000]

I found this strange story and wanted to hear your comments on it.



Southern Baptists start gay initiative
Body reveals plan to convince gays to shift to heterosexuality
http://www.msnbc.com/news/927816.asp?0cv=NB10

[Dancing David]

Well, if it makes them happy then more power to them. But if god made them gay then why would they want to try to change god's work?

Oh, thats right god isn't all powerful, I forgot...

[Crossbow]

That sort of thing is not all that new.

There have been many efforts to make homosexual people into hetrosexual people, usually by religious groups who do not like homesexual acts. Anyway, I do not know of any long-term studies on this type of thing, but what I have seen tells me that most of the time it works for the short-term, but not for the long-term.

[Pahansiri]

Southern Baptists next initiative is to ask dogs to become cats.

[Pahansiri]

http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/825/825_paulk.asp
http://www.planetout.com/pno/people/features/2000/06/exgay/splash.html


n October, one of the of the most prominent "ex-gays," John Paulk, was spotted at a gay bar in Washington, D.C. allegedly having a drink and fraternizing with other patrons. Paulk initially claimed that he was simply using the bathroom, but later admitted that claim was false. As a result, he was fired from his position as chair of Exodus International, a group claiming to help "convert" homosexual orientation to heterosexual. But he will continue to be associated with the group, which now claims that Paulk's trip to the bar was simply "a temporary escape from the responsibilities of the rest of his life." Then in January, the long-time leader of an "ex-gay" group in Britain announced that he had concluded that sexual orientation could not be changed..

[Samus]

From that article:

"HOMOSEXUALS CAN find freedom from this sinful, destructive lifestyle," said Richard Land, head of the Southern Baptists' public policy arm. "They can be redeemed. They can be liberated." Wow, this statement is filled with so much ignorance I can barely stand it. Who made this guy god's press secretary, and who is he to say gays are really just heterosexuals in need of more Jesus in their life?

Besides the drive to convert gays, the group argues that Christian faith can solve societal ills such as divorce, domestic violence and alcoholism. yeah, right. No amount of prayer in the world is going to save a woman from an abusive relationship, or get nations that have been fighting for hundreds or thousands of years to stop. Ignorance in action.

President Bush addressed the meeting by videotape, calling Southern Baptists "faithful servants" and asking God to bless them. This is my biggest beef with Bush since he took office, is his insistence on drivng away the citizens of the world by preaching to us.

"We’ve gone all the way from 'Leave It To Beaver' to 'The Osbournes,'" said Vines, a former Southern Baptist president who is now a Jacksonville, Fla., pastor. "We are a culture of perversions." I wasn't around in the 50s, but did any family actually function like the Cleavers? Or are shows like that just idealistic representations of what families should be? I can't imagine a show like Leave it to Beaver actually representing the "typical" American family. The Osbournes are much closer to reality.

[billiefan2000]

I wasnt around in the 50's but they were more Conservative back then.

Plus Unlike the 1950's:

There is no more Morals or Respect for others in Society anymore and we as a soceity have become savages and monsters and yet many of us who turn a blind eye to this behavior and allow to happen,say it is okay.


Kids do stuff bad nowadays days and the Lazy Parents turn a blind eye.

Teachers dont teach children anythin in Public Schools except how to put a Condom on a Cucumber.


Priest commits Abuse to Children in Phoenix Arizona and the Bishop who should have turned the Pervert Priest into the cops turns a blind eye to the abuse.

[Soubrette]

billie

Could you tell me what would constitute a shift towards homosexuality from a Christian viewpoint?

Is merely abstaining from the homosexual act enough? Or must a person actually become heterosexual and no longer even fancy same sex people?

Thanks :)

Sou

[billiefan2000]

I am not a expert in this field,so I wouldnt really know,but I think it has to do with Spirtual Healing.

You will have to ask one of the folks doing this program cause even I am not sure how it works.


I just reported the story,I dont know how or if it works.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by dwb
From that article:

Wow, this statement is filled with so much ignorance I can barely stand it. Who made this guy god's press secretary, and who is he to say gays are really just heterosexuals in need of more Jesus in their life?



Actually, my bigger concern is on his use of the word "destructive" lifestyle. How is it destructive? Most gay people I know or have heard have always indicated how awful their life was before they accepted the fact that they were gay. How they struggled with themselves and their lives. Accepting their homosexuailty not only did not destroy their lives, it meant removing a tremendous burden, allowing them to live more happily.

This came up in a thread yesterday in another forum: It's a circular problem. The assertion is that homosexuals need Jesus's help to save them from this terrible lifestyle. However, the only reason it is considered a terrible lifestyle in the first place is because God says so.

If you think about it, it is just another of the "Christianity Protection Racket." You pay Jesus to get saved from the destruction that God hands out. How is it any different from paying Vinnie and Guido to protect your place of business from the destruction ordered by the Godfather?

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by billiefan2000

Priest commits Abuse to Children in Phoenix Arizona and the Bishop who should have turned the Pervert Priest into the cops turns a blind eye to the abuse.

And this never happened back in the 50s...

Right.

[Samus]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
There is no more Morals or Respect for others in Society anymore and we as a society have become savages and monsters and yet many of us who turn a blind eye to this behavior and allow to happen,say it is okay. I don't think it's gotten quite this bad. For sure, it appears as though we are more violent, or at the very least, more disaffected by violence. I can't put my finger on one specific reason why this is so.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Kids do stuff bad nowadays days and the Lazy Parents turn a blind eye. That's bad parenting, and has nothing to do with religion or church or god.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Teachers don't teach children anything in Public Schools except how to put a Condom on a Cucumber. This is due mainly to bad education policy and follow through. Standardized tests are not the answer, yet there are more of those than ever. Teachers are tied to these tests; their curriculum is setup to prepare students for tests instead of to teach them. What's the solution? I don't know, but something is broken.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Priest commits Abuse to Children in Phoenix Arizona and the Bishop who should have turned the Pervert Priest into the cops turns a blind eye to the abuse. Yep, that's religion in action. Organized religion has been responsible for more hatred, heinous and savage acts, and deceit than any other institution in history. Why is moving away from religion a bad thing again?

[Samus]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
If you think about it, it is just another of the "Christianity Protection Racket." You pay Jesus to get saved from the destruction that God hands out. How is it any different from paying Vinnie and Guido to protect your place of business from the destruction ordered by the Godfather? That's easy: God loves you, Vinnie doesn't. :)

(for the humor impared, that was a joke)

[Jet Grind]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
There is no more Morals or Respect for others in Society anymore and we as a soceity have become savages and monsters and yet many of us who turn a blind eye to this behavior and allow to happen,say it is okay.

Why do I get the feeling that your simply regurgitating what you've heard on the Micheal Savage show?

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Kids do stuff bad nowadays days and the Lazy Parents turn a blind eye.

Yeah, what else it new? This has happened all throughout history, nothing unique here. And even if it does happen more frequently it still beats a time like the 50's where men were allowed to abuse their wives and children.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Teachers dont teach children anythin in Public Schools except how to put a Condom on a Cucumber.

That's complete and utter BS/ignorance and you know it.

[Khalid01]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
There is no more Morals or Respect for others in Society anymore and we as a soceity have become savages and monsters and yet many of us who turn a blind eye to this behavior and allow to happen,say it is okay.


Kids do stuff bad nowadays days and the Lazy Parents turn a blind eye.

Teachers dont teach children anythin in Public Schools except how to put a Condom on a Cucumber.
Whooo, let us play the generalization game! Huzzah!

First of all, if there isn't any morality in society, then how can we even perceive morals and say "oh, it's OK". Do you have any examples of this occuring, without condemnation from the general public?

Do you have any example of these bad kids and their lazy parents, and how proliferative they are?

Finally, I don't know how to put condom on a cucumber, gee I wonder why. Oh! It ought to be Shrub's ignorant supression of sex education! Evidently he wants me to get the Clap, or worse. I think public education is fairing rather well. Thanks to schooling, I've learned about the First Ammendment, so I know how to legally combat theocrats like yourself.

[Dancing David]

Yeah, the geat morals of 1950's back when:

you could still lynch black men
beat your wife
sodomize your children

all in the name of morality.

the world is getting better not worse.

[Upchurch]

The irony here is that during the last half of the last century, uninformed Christians were convinced that gays and lesbians had some sort of recruiting program to pervert straight men and women into something they aren't. (I know he's overused as a source, but he just covers so many topics. Example. (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0084/0084_01.asp)) Instead, it's really been those same uninfomred Christians who have had the recuriting program to pervert men and women into something they aren't.

What hipocracy. :(

edited to add:

Does anyone else think that the Sodam and Gamorah story from the Bible is really a statement against rape (of the angels by the Sodamites) rather than homosexuality?

[dnash]

Does anyone else think that the Sodam and Gamorah story from the Bible is really a statement against rape (of the angels by the Sodamites) rather than homosexuality?

The story is about hospitality. According to John Shelby Spong, it was a sort of custom in that time and place that strangers in a town could be subject to abuse and humiliation if not under the protective hospitality of a resident. When Lot takes the two men/angels into his house, the crowd gets angry because their fun is spoiled.

(Interestingly - later in the story Lot has sex with his daughters, yet the story is never quoted as being pro-incest.)

(paraphrased from part of this article.) (http://www.theposition.com/takingpositions/thereligiouswrite/01/03/19/homosex/default.shtm)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by dnash


(paraphrased from part of this article.) (http://www.theposition.com/takingpositions/thereligiouswrite/01/03/19/homosex/default.shtm) Interesting link, dnash. Thanks.

[Agammamon]

Checkout-
Baptists
Are
Saving
Homosexuals

(BASH)
at LandoverBaptist.org

[Darwin]

Apparently they´re indicating that homosexuality is but a "disease" or something like that,which you can be cured of if you take your pills.
Such a tactic is very easy to see trough,but it would seem to work.Disturbed family relationships may be suggested in order to make it look like a "pathology" of some sort.
The bad thing is that I´m afraid this kind of "convert" may work as some kind of a "psychoanalysis" gone awry.Basically this institution that can be very good in suppressing sexual drives (which in turn probably helps one to be even more homophobic due to insecurity) would be tearing others down and then suggesting one why things are the way they are by force.

Anything to make dark ages come back.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Darwin
Apparently they´re indicating that homosexuality is but a "disease" or something like that,which you can be cured of if you take your pills.

[snip]

Anything to make dark ages come back.Interesting take, Darwin. Interesting and scary.

Reminds me of the book 1984 where they prescribed pills to control "incorrect" feelings.

[Dancing David]

Afetr the homosexual, the sceptics, don't take the bible as literal truth, where lie on this rack , while we apply corrective measures.
Anyone see the movie Far From Heaven ?

[Darwin]

Sort of,I suppose.

Your note about pills,I believe this kind of a model is not all too strange to psychiatry as we know/have known it.

However,what I described,I do see as some kind of a last resort.
Considering that they can´t,based on their doctrine,say that "You were created this way,bound for hell" or how one ever constructs it.

[Ladewig]

I stopped listening to the Southern Baptists Convention right about the time they declared Hinduism to be a form of demonology. Wait a minute, I'm wrong. I never listened to anything the SBC said.

[AmateurScientist]

Baptists are the Nazis of 21st Century America.

There is nothing redeeming about them. Nothing but evil and hatred, through and through.

AS

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Yeah, the geat morals of 1950's back when:

sodomize your children

Yes, but in many states that has changed, while legally, you still cannot sodomize your wife.

I'm having a total brain fart right now, but there's an organization (maybe someone with higher bandwidth can find out) that is for "ex-gays." It's Genesis project or Ark foundation or something Old Testament in nature.

Well, a funny thing happened on the way to hetrosexuality. Two of the leaders of this organization ("formerly" gay men) eventually fell in love, left the organization and eventually got married.

Who'd a thunk it.

The "ex-gay" movement reaches it's nadir when it has, as part of it's reprogramming, teaching lesbians to apply make-up.

Feh! I should unleash my avatar on them...

[Random Walker]

What typically gets lost in this topic is the fact that such “ex-gay” programs have a negative influence far beyond the life of the sad homosexual who seeks their council.

Many such programs actively encourage the “cured” members to seek out a spouse of the opposite sex and create a family (sometimes this is the first bit of “advice” given). When the “cured” homosexual finds they can’t rightly live as the program told them they could, as a heterosexual, these families break apart, or worse.

Perhaps the majority of the blame in such situations should fall on the shoulders of the homosexual who entered into a marriage while knowing they were being deceptive about their true nature. Marriage should not be treated as some sort of last step in a 12-step program to cure an “addiction”.

But the preacher holds a significant degree of blame as well. These religious leaders are playing carelessly with the lives of unsuspecting heterosexual men and women, and even encouraging children to be brought into the inherently unstable mix, just to satisfy their odd superstitions.

Both liberal and conservative should cringe at the news of such initiatives.

BTW, it’s my first time posting on this forum. Hi all.

[Frostbite]

These nuts were interviewed on CNN the other day. It's just so wrong.

[thaiboxerken]

Would it be morally correct to force a heterosexual into being a homosexual, having sex with the same sex and marry that person? I personally think, no. A person can not be happy living a life married to, and having sexual relations with a person that they do not find attractive or of a gender they don't find appealing. These "converted" homosexuals might be having homosexual affairs and relationships, but they are unhappy and tortured. Some of these people will develop bad psychological problems and maybe even become a danger to society.

So, most people will agree that forcing a person into homosexual behavior is wrong if they are hetero. Why should it be ok to force things the opposite way? This is the big problem with the religious right, they do not have the insight to place themselves into the position of those they are trying to "save".

[DialecticMaterialist]

Ridiculous. That's like pressuring a man sleep with a goat and declaring "cured" of "speciest sexuality".

Sure you can do it, you *can* change the man. That doesn't mean its a good idea or it will make him very happy.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Also I consider homosexuality something more or less hardwired into a person at early age. Perhaps due to genetic predispositions, perhaps due to exegentic anomalies, perhaps a bit of both. In this sense they have no choice on the matter and the natural thing to do would be to be gay. Hence behaving like a heterosexual would go against their sexual nature and would hence be the abomination here. The more "sinful" course so to speak.

[Upchurch]

I do think that there are a percentage of straight men who decide that they are gay, as I think there are a percentage of gay men who decide that they are straight. In those cases, I'm all for them getting help and learning to be what they truely are, either way.

I just think those percentages are relatively small. Most people are gay or straight because they are, in fact, gay or straight not because they decide they are.

[LW]

Originally posted by dnash


The story is about hospitality. According to John Shelby Spong, it was a sort of custom in that time and place that strangers in a town could be subject to abuse and humiliation if not under the protective hospitality of a resident. When Lot takes the two men/angels into his house, the crowd gets angry because their fun is spoiled.

Too bad that article doesn't mention any sources. I can accept that a visitor without a protector can be essentially outlaw in the sense that if someone commits a crime against him, he will likely go unpunished. And I know that rape was a form of humiliation at the time. But I would like to have some sources before I believe that there was a "custom" of raping unprotected strangers.

Also, while Ezekiel 16:49-50 can be interpreted as saying that Sodom's sin was inhospitality, Jeremiah 23:14 and Jude 1:7 speak of sexual immorality (not explicitly specifying homosexuality). 2 Peter 2:6-8 doesn't go into details and speaks only of "filthy deeds of lawless men".

These four places are the only non-genesis ones speaking of Sodom's sins that I could find with a quick search. (The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is mentioned in few places more).

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I do think that there are a percentage of straight men who decide that they are gay, as I think there are a percentage of gay men who decide that they are straight. In those cases, I'm all for them getting help and learning to be what they truely are, either way.

I just think those percentages are relatively small. Most people are gay or straight because they are, in fact, gay or straight not because they decide they are.

I also believe that to some extent variable degrees all humans are bisexual. Almost all ( not that I have seen all maybe just 97%..LOL not really) porn involves lesbian sex but, more profound is that these movies almost always show male orgasms ( trying not to be graphic) and Johnson’s always shown. If straight males truly had no same sex desires at all there really would be no need for these shots ( pun not intended, well not completely.)

Just my thoughts for what it may be worth.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Pahansiri


I also believe that to some extent variable degrees all humans are bisexual. I don't know that porn would show that a good portion of humanity is so much bisexual as they are vouyeristic.

[Pahansiri]

Upchurch, true to a great point and the porn is not the only or perhaps the best example. But as to the they are vouyeristic while very true I love sports and it is how I make my living I love to watch sports but not all kinds and I really do not go out of my way to watch sports that I do not have at least some intrest in..

[dnash]

But I would like to have some sources before I believe that there was a "custom" of raping unprotected strangers.

I agree - I wish there were more specific sources mentioned there. I have read elsewhere (precisely where I'm not certain at the moment) that the Genesis reading of S&G as being about gay sex all hinges on the translation of the Hebrew verb "to know." I think the line in question is the townspeople saying to Lot "bring the strangers outside so we may know them." And though that verb is used sometimes to indicate heterosexual sex (though only rarely), I believe it's nowhere else used to indicate homosexual sex. That, coupled with the lack of explicit mention elsewhere of homosexual sex related to S&G, seems to indicate that homosexuality is not part of the original story.