william rodriguez

[Popeholden]

in this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294&q=9%2F11&hl=en

he outlines his belief about the events that day, that he heard an explosion below him before he heard one above him.

what to make of this?

[Brainache]

This has been dealt with before and it has something to do with the fact that sound travels faster through steel than it does through air.

[yodaluver28]

I don't think anyone denies what Rodriguez heard, but his interpretation of it. Explosions don't necessarily equal explosives and the plane came in so fast that it all happened in the blink of an eye. It would be almost impossible for someone in the basement to know the premise second that the plane hit the building since the upper floors would sway from the impact, not the basement, and the sound of the plane approaching would've been heard well before impact.

[Gravy]

I talk about that briefly here: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2018034&postcount=363

And examine it in more detail here: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40

[gumboot]

in this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294&q=9%2F11&hl=en

he outlines his belief about the events that day, that he heard an explosion below him before he heard one above him.

what to make of this?


It's worth pointing out his story has changed significantly over time.

-Gumboot

[Popeholden]

that makes sense

[StoneWT]

it's also worth pointing out that his CT version came about after being manipulated by Christopher Bollyn. Chris is the same paranoid individual that believes cops patrolling an entire neighborhood means they are stalking his house out of the dozens/hundreds in the area. He also believes that his arrest was due to his ridiculous articles on 9/11 (Sam Danner?).

[Gravy]

it's also worth pointing out that his CT version came about after being manipulated by Christopher Bollyn. Chris is the same paranoid individual that believes cops patrolling an entire neighborhood means they are stalking his house out of the dozens/hundreds in the area. He also believes that his arrest was due to his ridiculous articles on 9/11 (Sam Danner?).I wasn't aware of that. Do you know where I can find more info?

[StoneWT]

Gravy,

You'd have to check the back issues of the American Free Press. As you know, Bollyn was the originator or chief publicizer of many of the most outlandish 9/11 CT's. The new twists to Rodriguez' story seemed to pop up around the time of articles written in the AFP by Bollyn. I'm not aware of changes to the story before the association with the likes of Bollyn and Hufschmit(?).

[osmosis]

he outlines his belief about the events that day, that he heard an explosion below him before he heard one above him.

Even if there was an explosion below him, it's highly unlikely that he would have been able to tell the difference.

A human has two ears and can only locate the source of sound on a one dimensional axis. In short, not only can a person standing upright not tell the difference between a sound coming from above or below, s/he can't even say if it was from in front or behind.

[uk_dave]

Even if there was an explosion below him, it's highly unlikely that he would have been able to tell the difference.

A human has two ears and can only locate the source of sound on a one dimensional axis. In short, not only can a person standing upright not tell the difference between a sound coming from above or below, s/he can't even say if it was from in front or behind.

You could also use the sub-woofer analogy with regard to sound.

Or is a sub-woofer a dog with a very quiet bark? :confused:

[LashL]

You could also use the sub-woofer analogy with regard to sound.

Or is a sub-woofer a dog with a very quiet bark?

arf arf

;)

[Gravy]

You'd have to check the back issues of the American Free Press. Twelve words I hoped I'd never hear!

A human has two ears and can only locate the source of sound on a one dimensional axis.American Free Press Headline: "9/11 'Debunkers' Say WTC Hero Rodriguez Not Human"

[Panoply_Prefect]

Are Rodriguez and Scott Forbes the only persons who actually were in the towers to believe that its a government conspiracy? (well, mr. Forbes just claims somethings fishy) Mr Forbes as I understand it claims there was a massive powerdown in the South Tower prior to 911 -however I havent found anyone else supporting this.

Cheers,
SLOB

[Oliver]

Are Rodriguez and Scott Forbes the only persons who actually were in the towers to believe that its a government conspiracy? (well, mr. Forbes just claims somethings fishy) Mr Forbes as I understand it claims there was a massive powerdown in the South Tower prior to 911 -however I havent found anyone else supporting this.

Cheers,
SLOB

As far i learned there were no additional reports that support their views. This is the strange part of the story - especially the powerdown. A lot of people should remember this, especially because it would have been unusal to see a tower "disapearing" at night during the powerdown because of missing illumination.

[Panoply_Prefect]

As far i learned there were no additional reports that support their views. This is the strange part of the story - especially the powerdown. A lot of people should remember this, especially because it would have been unusal to see a tower "disapearing" at night during the powerdown because of missing illumination.

Definately. But neither does a power-down help a conspiracy theory - as I understand it Forbes claims it took place in the South Tower the weekend prior to 911. So not only would it not have effected the North Tower - it wouldn't have helped any government agents doing foul play (e.g planting explosives). So Im not sure where it would fit a government conspiracy (more than give the CTs a bit of "look, why would a power down occure that close to 911 - a coincidence, I think not). Or am I mistaken? (And as a note - the CT video with the female voiceover, I never can separate those "documentaries", claims the powerdown was explained to be "to lay out new internet cables" - whereas Forbes say it was due to re-cabling the power supply). Im not allowed to post urls yet, but you can find the Forbes interview on Killtown Blogspot.

Cheers,
SLOB

[Oliver]

Definately. But neither does a power-down help a conspiracy theory - as I understand it Forbes claims it took place in the South Tower the weekend prior to 911. So not only would it not have effected the North Tower - it wouldn't have helped any government agents doing foul play (e.g planting explosives). So Im not sure where it would fit a government conspiracy (more than give the CTs a bit of "look, why would a power down occure that close to 911 - a coincidence, I think not). Or am I mistaken?

Cheers,
SLOB

Well, i didn´t had the chance to connect the dots in the same way like conspiracy theorists do but as far i learned they pick the dots in a random way ignoring everything that disproofs their point of view.

This is strange but maybe just the wish to believe in something?

[bonavada]

I talk about that briefly here: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2018034&postcount=363

And examine it in more detail here: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40

you cite mike pecarao's story in one of the links.
christophera, in the interminable "realistice" thread, selectively quotes him (and others in your link) in a vain attempt to bolster his CD fantasies.
i tackled our chris over this HERE (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2008805#post2008805)
shooting himself in the foot once more, christopheras choosy use of mike pecararo's account of the events achieves the exact opposite of what he and other CT'ers claim. that being evidence that the "explosions" must have happened ABOVE the lower sub-levels of the tower (i mean at the B level. almost certainly down the elevator shafts) he still refuses to answer the specific questions i asked. he uses multiple get-out clauses at every opportunity.
anyway, the thread is now becoming somewhat tedious. christophera has turned into something like the village idiot in the stocks. fed up with throwing rotten tomatoes i'm on the hunt for a more challenging opponent where i can learn more methods of debunothology. any suggestions?



BV

[StoneWT]

Gravy,

I'm getting tired of reading AFP. It helps to keep track of the current CTs, but the inclusion of utter crap like front page stories on fake witnesses (Sam Danner) is too much to stand. I'm going to let my subscription lapse when it comes due.

The best thing I can think of is to look for an online compilation of AFP stories. Also, certain organizations (SPLC, ADL, etc.) might have access to old issues.

[beachnut]

in this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294&q=9%2F11&hl=en

he outlines his belief about the events that day, that he heard an explosion below him before he heard one above him.

what to make of this?

he would have been dead if it was an explosion of any thing more than noise

noise, is what he heard, did he see what caused the noise? Did one of the express elevators fall?

[Muckar-duva]

Sound analysis from laymen seems worthless to me. I know for a fact that I've interpreted loud noises to be coming from a completely different angle than evidence proves.

People describe explosions, that's just what to expect- how else to describe the sounds?

I make a difference between Rodriguez and his EARwitnesssing and the poeple in "9/11- an oral history" and their EYEwitnessing of popped marblewalls, sagging floors, creaking and dislodging of walls visavi ceilings.

But I also think that it's an adequate distinction.

[Beleth]

In short, not only can a person standing upright not tell the difference between a sound coming from above or below, s/he can't even say if it was from in front or behind.
Um...

As the proud owner/operator of two human ears, I can state with some certainty that there is at least one human in the world who can tell the general direction of a sound.

[Gravy]

you cite mike pecarao's story in one of the links.
christophera, in the interminable "realistice" thread, selectively quotes him (and others in your link) in a vain attempt to bolster his CD fantasies.
i tackled our chris over this HERE (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2008805#post2008805)Good job on that reply.[/URL]

anyway, the thread is now becoming somewhat tedious. JREF Forums understatement of the year? :D

Christophera also mentioned the account of Phillip Morelli, claiming that he was knocked down by two blasts in the north tower. Wrong. Here's what Morelli actually said:

4th Sub-basement. Phillip Morelli describes the initial blast from the freight elevator shaft, and what appears to be the impact of a falling elevator car:

"As I'm walking by the main freight car of the building, in the corridor, that's when I got blown. I mean, the impact of the explosion, of whatever happened, it threw me to the floor, and that's when everything started happening. It knocked me right to the floor. Of course you didn't know what it was, you're assuming something just fell over in the loading dock, something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened, and all of a sudden you just felt the floor moving, and you get up, and the walls – and then, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, you know the elevators, fell down, so I was right near the main freight car, so I assume what that was. [Describing the same event] Then, you know, you heard that coming towards you, I was racing, I was going towards the bathrooms, you know, all of a sudden, and a big impact happened again, and all the ceiling tiles were falling down, the light fixtures falling, swinging out of the ceiling.

And I come running out of the door, and everything – the walls were down, and now I started running towards the parking lot. [He describes going underground from WTC 1 to 2, helping injured people.] And then all of a sudden it happened all over again. Building 2 got hit. Again, I don't know that, I just know something else hit into the floor. Right in the basement you felt it. Walls were caving in, everything that was going on. I mean, I know people that got killed in the basement, I know people that got broken legs in the basement, people that got reconstructive surgery because the walls hit them in the face."
[url]http://www.ny1.com/pages/RRR/911special_survivors.html (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2008805#post2008805)

[Garb]

"As I'm walking by the main freight car of the building, in the corridor, that's when I got blown

Bow chicka wow wow.

[Muckar-duva]

Um...

As the proud owner/operator of two human ears, I can state with some certainty that there is at least one human in the world who can tell the general direction of a sound.

Amazing. Because I know I can't do that at all times. Sound travels in crazy ways, tricking your ears. I still don't see how this couldn't have been the case with Rod- but far more important, I do NOT see the value of ear witness as compared to eye witness. Ears can easily be tricked. Eyes can, as well, but to a certain extent, as visuals are easily described.

[gumboot]

Um...

As the proud owner/operator of two human ears, I can state with some certainty that there is at least one human in the world who can tell the general direction of a sound.


The human ear is excellent at determining the direction of sound on the horizontal axis, but appalling at determining it on the vertical axis.

This is the main reason cinema surround sound is all at the same vertical level (no speakers down low and up high). They could produce true surround sound by having sound coming from above and below as well as all sides, but no human would appreciate it.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

How are we meant to perceive the following?

"Engineer Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the sixth sub-basement of the north tower, said that after an explosion he and a co-worker went up to the C level, where there was a small machine shop. “There was nothing there but rubble,” said Pecoraro. “We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press--gone!” They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil." Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, Pecoraro was convinced that a bomb had gone off."

[Garb]

How are we meant to perceive the following?

"Engineer Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the sixth sub-basement of the north tower, said that after an explosion he and a co-worker went up to the C level, where there was a small machine shop. “There was nothing there but rubble,” said Pecoraro. “We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press--gone!” They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil." Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, Pecoraro was convinced that a bomb had gone off."

Here's a question: What good would it do to blow those up if they were going to level the building anyways?

[gumboot]

How are we meant to perceive the following?

"Engineer Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the sixth sub-basement of the north tower, said that after an explosion he and a co-worker went up to the C level, where there was a small machine shop. “There was nothing there but rubble,” said Pecoraro. “We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press--gone!” They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil." Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, Pecoraro was convinced that a bomb had gone off."


Very little of that quote is actually Pecoraro's words.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

Here's a question: What good would it do to blow those up if they were going to level the building anyways?

So your calling these witnesses liars? Nice.

Blowing basements would be an ideal way to weaken the 47 corecolumns where they actually meet the bedrock.

[Docker]

Very little of that quote is actually Pecoraro's words.

-Gumboot

And?

It's well known testimony. He saw the press gone and the rubble and the door blown off. Jet fuel can't do that.

[Garb]

So your calling these witnesses liars? Nice.

Blowing basements would be an ideal way to weaken the 47 corecolumns where they actually meet the bedrock.

No. I'm calling you out on trying to pin destroyed presses on the government.

Did they ever talk about destroyed supports? Holes in the walls? If I saw a destroyed press I'd surely check the walls to see where it could have possibly come from.

You need motive if you don't have any evidence that it was actually an explosion.

[gumboot]

And?


There's a legal term for using someone else's version of what a witness said as evidence.


He saw the press gone and the rubble and the door blown off. Jet fuel can't do that.


Can't it?

-Gumboot

[Docker]

While we are on the subject of jet fuel, only one elevator went all the way up the building, the rest went between skylobbys. The jet fuel theory is nonsense

[Garb]

While we are on the subject of jet fuel, only one elevator went all the way up the building, the rest went between skylobbys. The jet fuel theory is nonsense

And where were the presses located?

[Docker]

And where were the presses located?

On the roof?

[gumboot]

While we are on the subject of jet fuel, only one elevator went all the way up the building, the rest went between skylobbys. The jet fuel theory is nonsense


The elevators were stacked above each other inside the shafts. The actual elevator shafts ran the entire length of the building. This argument, also, has been well and truely demolished.

-Gumboot

[Dog Town]

While we are on the subject of jet fuel, only one elevator went all the way up the building, the rest went between skylobbys. The jet fuel theory is nonsense

The shafts ran the length of the buildings, I believe.

ETA: Gums beat me D'oh!

[Garb]

On the roof?

I'm serious. Where in the buildings were the presses located for you to remove the fact that an explosion couldn't have come from the elevator shaft.

[Dog Town]

Blowing basements would be an ideal way to weaken the 47 corecolumns where they actually meet the bedrock.

So you "really" think they blew out the bottom, and they collapsed an hour later?

[gumboot]

So you "really" think they blew out the bottom, and they collapsed an hour later?


From the top down nonetheless.

-Gumboot

[Garb]

From the top down nonetheless.

-Gumboot

But... they're BIG generators!!!

[DarkMagician]

Blowing basements would be an ideal way to weaken the 47 corecolumns where they actually meet the bedrock.
And kill off Rodriguez in the explosion. Oh wait, Rodriguez is still alive.

[Bell]

*walks in*

Hmmm, looks like you're doing allright here, people. Anybody needs a sports drink and a wet sponge?

*walks out*

[Docker]

No. I'm calling you out on trying to pin destroyed presses on the government.

Did they ever talk about destroyed supports? Holes in the walls? If I saw a destroyed press I'd surely check the walls to see where it could have possibly come from.

You need motive if you don't have any evidence that it was actually an explosion.

The witnesses mention rubble? What caused that? Jet fuel?

[Garb]

The witnesses mention rubble? What caused that? Jet fuel?

Evidence that it couldn't have been jet feul?

[gumboot]

The witnesses mention rubble? What caused that? Jet fuel?


Actually someone paraphrasing the witness mentions rubble. I'd like to see a direct quote from the witness themself that mentions rubble.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

Actually someone paraphrasing the witness mentions rubble. I'd like to see a direct quote from the witness themself that mentions rubble.

-Gumboot

I shall find one sir.

[Docker]

Evidence that it couldn't have been jet feul?

Jet fuel does not create rubble. It kinda burns.

[Docker]

The shafts ran the length of the buildings, I believe.

ETA: Gums beat me D'oh!

And they were sealed.

[gumboot]

Jet fuel does not create rubble. It kinda burns.


Every heard of a fuel air explosive?

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

And they were sealed.


That's funny. If they were sealed I wonder how people got in and out?

-Gumboot

[Docker]

Every heard of a fuel air explosive?

-Gumboot

Now your really stretching. I challenge you to find me one example of a jet fuel/petrol fire or explosion creating rubble and knocking out walls, which he also says.

[gumboot]

Now your really stretching. I challenge you to find me one example of a jet fuel/petrol fire or explosion creating rubble and knocking out walls, which he also says.


Okay. A fuel air explosive.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

Actually someone paraphrasing the witness mentions rubble. I'd like to see a direct quote from the witness themself that mentions rubble.

-Gumboot

Heres a fuller account for you. I shall also try and get you an untainted press quote.

http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm (http://st12.startlogic.com/%7Exenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm)

[Docker]

Okay. A fuel air explosive.

-Gumboot


Please link me to an example where this damage has been created. If you cant then with draw your claim please.

[Garb]

Please link me to an example where this damage has been created. If you cant then with draw your claim please.

When is the last time someone blew up fuel in a room?

[gumboot]

Heres a fuller account for you. I shall also try and get you an untainted press quote.

http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm (http://st12.startlogic.com/%7Exenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm)


Thanks for that. Interesting that you ignored his account of kerosene, and the fact that he didn't hear any explosions. Where do you think the kerosene came from? His entire account is in keeping with an airliner smashing into the building.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

And where were the presses located?Keep in mind that the "50-ton press" Pecoraro refers to is the hydraulic capacity of the press, not its weight. A typical 50-ton press weighs about 650 lbs.

Docker, you're in way over your head. I linked to 2 posts of mine in the first page of this thread. I suggest you read them before proceeding.

[Dog Town]

When is the last time someone blew up fuel in a room?

Meth lab, lots O' rubbbble! Rhymes with trooouuuuble! Boom!

[Docker]

When is the last time someone blew up fuel in a room?

So there is no example. Thanks for the input.

[Docker]

Keep in mind that the "50-ton press" Pecoraro refers to is the hydraulic capacity of the press, not its weight. A typical 50-ton press weighs about 650 lbs.

Docker, you're in way over your head. I linked to 2 posts of mine in the first page of this thread. I suggest you read them before proceeding.

Ok boss whatever you say.

I know the 50 ton refers to capacity. In fact I heard the weight was only 400 pounds.

[Dog Town]

So there is no example. Thanks for the input.

Above!

[Arus808]

^^ man you are using CT tactics like if you read them from a manual.

[Garb]

So there is no example. Thanks for the input.

Doesn't mean it is impossible to happen. If we could find out what the force of a jet fuel explosion is then we can figure it out.

Just cause there are no previous examples doesn't mean it isn't impossible.

[Gravy]

Ok boss whatever you say.

I know the 50 ton refers to capacity. In fact I heard the weight was only 400 pounds.I'll make it easy for you, boss: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2028195&postcount=4

[Docker]

Gravy do you think this witness is lying? Why are the skeptics witnesses all plausible but the CT witnesses arent.

You were not in the basement on 9/11. Who am I to believe, you or the witness.

[Arus808]

Just cause there are no previous examples doesn't mean it isn't impossible.

oooh, shouldn't that be used as to why the towers collapsed since they are the first all steel structures to do so? .... :eek:

[Garb]

Ok boss whatever you say.

I know the 50 ton refers to capacity. In fact I heard the weight was only 400 pounds.

:confused: That completely contradicts your "jet fuel couldn't have destroyed it" theory.

[Docker]

Thanks for that. Interesting that you ignored his account of kerosene, and the fact that he didn't hear any explosions. Where do you think the kerosene came from? His entire account is in keeping with an airliner smashing into the building.

-Gumboot

He claims the kerosene was from a car fire. Hes an engineer, he may know the difference.

[Docker]

:confused: That completely contradicts your "jet fuel couldn't have destroyed it" theory.

how does it? combined with the rubble and the disappearing walls, jet fuel couldnt have done it.

[Arus808]

Gravy do you think this witness is lying?
No one says they are lieing.

We are saying that their conclusions are off.

Why are the skeptics witnesses all plausible but the CT witnesses arent.

No, they are plausible whne they only stick to the FACTS of what they saw.
IE: I saw rubble.
IE: i saw concrete
Ie: i saw machines crumpled
IE: i smelt fuel
IE: i felt heat.

When they start saying: "I saw rubble, so it must have been an explosive device". They are not concluding it based on what they saw, just on what they believe. That is not a fact based conclusion.


when they start saying "I believe it was" or "IT sounded like" they are now concluding based on their own opinion, not fact.

You were not in the basement on 9/11. Who am I to believe, you or the witness.
The witness, however you can only believe the amount of facts.
NOT their opinons as to what happened.

[gumboot]

Please link me to an example where this damage has been created. If you cant then with draw your claim please.


Have a read about thermobaric weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel-air_explosive)...

Thermobaric weapons distinguish themselves from conventional explosive weapons by using atmospheric oxygen, instead of carrying an oxidizer in their explosives. They are also called high-impulse thermobaric weapons (HITs), fuel-air explosives (FAE or FAX) or sometimes "fuel-air munitions", "heat and pressure" weapons, or vacuum bombs. They produce more explosive energy for a given size than do other conventional explosives.

-Gumboot

[Arus808]

He claims the kerosene was from a car fire. Hes an engineer, he may know the difference.

what kind of engineer?

[Dog Town]

how does it? combined with the rubble and the disappearing walls, jet fuel couldnt have done it.

3734 Not till it explodes!

[gumboot]

He claims the kerosene was from a car fire. Hes an engineer, he may know the difference.


Because cars run on kerosene?

-Gumboot

[Docker]

I'll make it easy for you, boss: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2028195&postcount=4

ok I have read that. Now tell me how jet fuels make walls disappear.

Also, why are people insinuating that rodriguez changed his story?

[Dog Town]

Also, why are people insinuating that rodriguez changed his story?
Cuz, he did?

[Docker]

Because cars run on kerosene?

-Gumboot

Exactly, so if he thought it was a car it must have smelled like petrol.

[Gravy]

ok I have read that. Now tell me how jet fuels make walls disappear.

Also, why are people insinuating that rodriguez changed his story?You read all the accounts in the second link in the last five minutes?

[Docker]

Have a read about thermobaric weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel-air_explosive)...



-Gumboot

So you agree it was a bomb. Thanks.

[Garb]

how does it? combined with the rubble and the disappearing walls, jet fuel couldnt have done it.

To a 400 pound press? I beg to differ.

If a simple HE grenade can destroy a 175 pound(est.) washine machine (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jhKKJ4UQ3_A), I would believe an incredibly large jet fuel explosion can take out a 400 pound press.

[gumboot]

ok I have read that. Now tell me how jet fuels make walls disappear.

When aerosized fuel ignites it creates an extremely high pressure shock wave.



Also, why are people insinuating that rodriguez changed his story?

He initially described the first noise he heard as a low rumble like moving furniture. It was only later that he said it was a short sharp sound like an explosion.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

You read all the accounts in the second link in the last five minutes?


Yes I speed read. Answer my question instead of sidestepping.

[Arus808]

So you agree it was a bomb. Thanks.

great way to quote mine, typical ct tactic.
great way to make someone comment on something other than what he was trying to point out to you and use that to prove something else, typical ct tactic

boy, you must have read a CTer bible on how to act on forums.

[gumboot]

Exactly, so if he thought it was a car it must have smelled like petrol.


Do you know what the difference is between petroleum and kerosene?

They don't smell the same, for starters...

-Gumboot

[Docker]

When aerosized fuel ignites it creates an extremely high pressure shock wave.




He initially described the first noise he heard as a low rumble like moving furniture. It was only later that he said it was a short sharp sound like an explosion.

-Gumboot

Source for your shock wave assertion?

Rodriguez first testimony was in the heat of the moment. Debunkers always say that first hand accounts arent the best. He may well have been in shock when he made the original quote.

[Arus808]

Yes I speed read. Answer my question instead of sidestepping.

If you did read it, then you would have had your answer. He isn't sidestepping. YOU are simply ignoring the answer.

[gumboot]

So you agree it was a bomb. Thanks.


You don't know what a thermobaric weapon is do you?

-Gumboot

[Docker]

Do you know what the difference is between petroleum and kerosene?

They don't smell the same, for starters...

-Gumboot

Exactly my point, so the fact he said car means it more likely smelled of petrol.

[Garb]

Source for your shock wave assertion?

Rodriguez first testimony was in the heat of the moment. Debunkers always say that first hand accounts arent the best. He may well have been in shock when he made the original quote.

The fact that he even described it was like moving furniture says nothing to you? How can that come from an explosion?

[Gravy]

Yes I speed read. Answer my question instead of sidestepping.No, I don't believe that you speed read. If you did, and could comprehend what you read, you'd have the answer to your question.

Now, Docker, please summarize the accounts I provided, particularly those from the lobby and basement levels.

[Docker]

To a 400 pound press? I beg to differ.

If a simple HE grenade can destroy a 175 pound(est.) washine machine (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jhKKJ4UQ3_A), I would believe an incredibly large jet fuel explosion can take out a 400 pound press.

Your comparing grenades and jet fuel? Find me an example of jet fuel creating rubble. If you cant then admit your wrong.

[gumboot]

Source for your shock wave assertion?


I have already given you a link to a wikipedia article on thermobaric weapons. I'm not going to hold your hand like a baby. There is an excellent video on YouTube however that explains Thermobaric weapons and has an incredible high-speed piece of film footage recording a fuel air explosive in action.



Rodriguez first testimony was in the heat of the moment. Debunkers always say that first hand accounts arent the best. He may well have been in shock when he made the original quote.


No, he wasn't. It was given some time after the event.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

No, I don't believe that you speed read. If you did, and could comprehend what you read, you'd have the answer to your question.

Now, Docker, please summarize the accounts I provided, particularly those from the lobby and basement levels.

Answer my questions please.

[Garb]

Your comparing grenades and jet fuel? Find me an example of jet fuel creating rubble. If you cant then admit your wrong.

Yes. Grenades have less of a destructive force. Do you not understand it?

And any eplosion can create rubble. At least any large enough explosion. An explosion from jet fuel is no exception.

[Bell]

Yes I speed read. Answer my question instead of sidestepping.

Now, where have I seen those replies before? Mmm...
Killtown, that you?

[gumboot]

Exactly my point, so the fact he said car means it more likely smelled of petrol.


No, it doesn't. It means he was trying to find a logical explanation for where the smell came from. One would not expect him to think "Oh, well I guess a jet aircraft just smashed into the building".

He was very specific. He said "white smoke" and "kerosene". These are very specific details, and in keeping with the explosion being caused by kerosene (kerosene will produce white smoke, petroleum won't).

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Answer my questions please.I'm not here to repeat myself. I've done my homework. If you don't want to read all the eyewitness accounts that I compiled, the burden of ignorance is on you.

P.s. you might want to look into what the elevator shaft walls were made of.

[Arus808]

And any eplosion can create rubble. At least any large enough explosion. An explosion from jet fuel is no exception.

who needs an explosion? The impact of two very heavy objects can create rubble easily. Every watch someone demo a building with that big ball tied to a crane? (dang what is that thing called?)

[Docker]

The fact that he even described it was like moving furniture says nothing to you? How can that come from an explosion?

But earlier you claimed it was an explosion, a fuel/air explosion. How can a wall being destroyed by fuel air explosions sound like moving furniture?

You just disproved your own argument!

[Garb]

who needs an explosion? The impact of two very heavy objects can create rubble easily. Every watch someone demo a building with that big ball tied to a crane? (dang what is that thing called?)

Yeah but we are talking about the "large" 400 pound presses that were destroyed before collapse.

[Docker]

who needs an explosion? The impact of two very heavy objects can create rubble easily. Every watch someone demo a building with that big ball tied to a crane? (dang what is that thing called?)

So your coming round to my demolition theory.

[Bell]

who needs an explosion? The impact of two very heavy objects can create rubble easily. Every watch someone demo a building with that big ball tied to a crane? (dang what is that thing called?)

Big ball, tied to a crane.

I think it's called an (ACME) demolition ball.

[Garb]

But earlier you claimed it was an explosion, a fuel/air explosion. How can a wall being destroyed by fuel air explosions sound like moving furniture?

You just disproved your own argument!

Two completely different scenarios pal. The moving furniture part was when the plane hit.

[Docker]

I'm not here to repeat myself. I've done my homework. If you don't want to read all the eyewitness accounts that I compiled, the burden of ignorance is on you.

P.s. you might want to look into what the elevator shaft walls were made of.

Well that says it all boss.

[Garb]

So your coming round to my demolition theory.

Wait, so you are saying that the Bush administration hit the twin towers with huge cranes without anyone noticing?

There's a new one.

[Bell]

So your coming round to my demolition theory.

Strawman. How is two planes crashing into the Twin Towers the same as a demolition?

[Dog Town]

Now, where have I seen those replies before? Mmm...
Killtown, that you?

Naw, Docker is an LC reject, or quitter! Depending on the spin you subscribe to!

ETA: Could be though! Game on later!
GO COWBOYS!

[Docker]

Two completely different scenarios pal. The moving furniture part was when the plane hit.

But u admitted a fuel/air explosion. So to then say they didnt hear explosions defeats your case.

[Docker]

Wait, so you are saying that the Bush administration hit the twin towers with huge cranes without anyone noticing?

There's a new one.

Dont be ridiculous. We all know it was laser guided v2 rockets, stolen from russia, launch by the international space station, and cloaked by holograms provided by david copperfield.

[Bell]

Naw, Docker is an LC reject, or quitter! Depending on the spin you subscribe to!

ETA: Could be though!

Quitter then. LC doesn't seem to reject members since the new (and brainhurting) forum. At least that gives Shrinker some well deserved rest.

[Garb]

But u admitted a fuel/air explosion. So to then say they didnt hear explosions defeats your case.

That could have occured when during when the planes hit, during the rumbling.

Honestly, I don't know where you are going with this, because you have not yet proved that there were explosive except for some presses that were destroyed (which I already told you must have come from fuel explosions)

Oh and a fuel explosion probably wouldn't sound the same as a bomb going off, am I correct?

[Docker]

Naw, Docker is an LC reject, or quitter! Depending on the spin you subscribe to!

ETA: Could be though! Game on later!
GO COWBOYS!

I am not killtown, although I admire his voracity. I dont use or care about loose change forums either.

[Bell]

Dont be ridiculous. We all know it was laser guided v2 rockets, stolen from russia, launch by the international space station, and cloaked by holograms provided by david copperfield.

I allmost thought you were being sarcastic.

[gumboot]

But u admitted a fuel/air explosion. So to then say they didnt hear explosions defeats your case.


Not really. We're only talking about the FIRST explosion he claimed to hear. There was also the SECOND explosion, after which he went to the elevator doors and saw them damaged, with white smoke, smell of kerosene, burned people, etc...

We contend this SECOND explosion was caused by the jet fuel.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

That could have occured when during when the planes hit, during the rumbling.

Honestly, I don't know where you are going with this, because you have not yet proved that there were explosive except for some presses that were destroyed (which I already told you must have come from fuel explosions)

Oh and a fuel explosion probably wouldn't sound the same as a bomb going off, am I correct?

I have challenged you to explain the rubble and you have not. I asked for an example of fuel causing such damage, none were provided (except a pathetically waek link to bombs on wikipedia)

By the way, using the word "during" twice in one sentence shows the knots I have tied you in.

[Docker]

Not really. We're only talking about the FIRST explosion he claimed to hear. There was also the SECOND explosion, after which he went to the elevator doors and saw them damaged, with white smoke, smell of kerosene, burned people, etc...

We contend this SECOND explosion was caused by the jet fuel.

-Gumboot

Show me an example of fuel causing that damage or withdraw your contention.

[Bell]

Show me an example of fuel causing that damage or withdraw your contention.

If fuel didn't, then what did?

[Docker]

I might have heard negative things about gravy before joining here but at least gravy does some research and provides evidence. The rest of you don't bother and just rely on him.

[Garb]

I have challenged you to explain the rubble and you have not. I asked for an example of fuel causing such damage, none were provided (except a pathetically waek link to bombs on wikipedia)

By the way, using the word "during" twice in one sentence shows the knots I have tied you in.

Uh oh, said a word twice! How terrible is my argument!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel-air_explosive

And define what kind of rubble. The quote wasn't very clear.

[Arus808]

So your coming round to my demolition theory.

OMG, you are totally being a CTer using their tactics
I WAS USING THAT AS A FREAKING EXAMPLE.

Anything heavy colliding with any other object is bound to create debris/rubble.

A CAR CRASHING INTO THE SIDE OF A BUILDING can create rubble.
So are you now going to say that a car caused the buildigns to collapse?

[Docker]

If fuel didn't, then what did?

I don't know and I never claimed to. But we do have a history of car bombs in the wtc basement. Could have even been a simultaneous attack with terrorists in a car below.

Rodriguez said he saw one of the hijackers staking out the trade centre weeks before.

[Garb]

I don't know and I never claimed to. But we do have a history of car bombs in the wtc basement. Could have even been a simultaneous attack with terrorists in a car below.

Rodriguez said he saw one of the hijackers staking out the trade centre weeks before.

Speculating much?

[Docker]

OMG, you are totally being a CTer using their tactics
I WAS USING THAT AS A FREAKING EXAMPLE.

Anything heavy colliding with any other object is bound to create debris/rubble.

A CAR CRASHING INTO THE SIDE OF A BUILDING can create rubble.
So are you now going to say that a car caused the buildigns to collapse?

Calm down hun

[gumboot]

I have challenged you to explain the rubble and you have not. I asked for an example of fuel causing such damage, none were provided (except a pathetically waek link to bombs on wikipedia)


Pathetically weak? Including a statement that thermobaric weapons are MORE powerful than conventional explosives? Right.

Since you only seem capable of dealing with pretty pictures, watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJAs_3MiV00).

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Well that says it all boss.It sure does. You're yet another CT who makes unfounded accusations and refuses to look at the evidence that's put directly in front of him. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40)

[Docker]

Speculating much?

Yes I'm speculating, based on historical examples in that very builing and the fact that you cannot give me a single example of fuel causing that damage

[Gravy]

I don't know and I never claimed to. But we do have a history of car bombs in the wtc basement.False. The truck bomb exploded in the parking garage between the towers.

[Arus808]

Show me an example of fuel causing that damage or withdraw your contention.


So, if you dont believe that fuel (and its fumes) can't cause an explosion (if near heat), then you should tell gas stations to stop using pumps and just keep gas in buckets to fuel peoples cars with.

What the hell do you think happens in engines?

YOU SERIOUSLY need to stop claiming things you have no knowledge about.

[gumboot]

Yes I'm speculating, based on historical examples in that very builing and the fact that you cannot give me a single example of fuel causing that damage


How many times do you have to be told that Fuel Air Explosives are MORE powerful than conventional explosives before you begin to understand it? Do you have reading comprehension issues?

-Gumboot

[Docker]

Lets not forget that in 1993 the terrorists wanted to bring the buildings down. Is it not possible that they had another cell putting car bombs in the basement to make sure it happened on 9/11?

[Arus808]

Yes I'm speculating, based on historical examples in that very builing and the fact that you cannot give me a single example of fuel causing that damage

dont need an exact example .just look at how engines work. multiply that force and energy by thousands of gallons of fuel, and even a 6th grader can the idea.

[gumboot]

Lets not forget that in 1993 the terrorists wanted to bring the buildings down. Is it not possible that they had another cell putting car bombs in the basement to make sure it happened on 9/11?


Of course it's possible. There's just no evidence of it.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Yes I'm speculating, based on historical examples in that very builing and the fact that you cannot give me a single example of fuel causing that damageFalse. Fuel explosions caused that damage throughout the elevator areas in the WTC, which you would know if you had bothered to read the eyewitness accounts (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40).

[Docker]

False. The truck bomb exploded in the parking garage between the towers.

Now your just splitting hairs. Please dont do that, it weakens your already flimsy arguments

[Arus808]

Lets not forget that in 1993 the terrorists wanted to bring the buildings down. Is it not possible that they had another cell putting car bombs in the basement to make sure it happened on 9/11?


You show again, that you do not know what you are talking about.

[Docker]

False. Fuel explosions caused that damage throughout the elevator areas in the WTC, which you would know if you had bothered to read the eyewitness accounts.

Gravy you cannot prove this.

[Bell]

I don't know and I never claimed to. But we do have a history of car bombs in the wtc basement. Could have even been a simultaneous attack with terrorists in a car below.

Rodriguez said he saw one of the hijackers staking out the trade centre weeks before.

Typical CT. You don't agree with the official explaination, but when asked what did happen, who did it, or how, you all revert to "I don't know"

Convenient, no?

I could ask you "show me an example of a car bomb causing that damage or withdraw your contention" but then you would answer "I never said it was a car bomb"

You CTist are cowards, by not providing any case, but only asking questions. Be a man and stop faqing around, tell us WHAT EXACTLY happened on 9/11.

[Arus808]

Now your just splitting hairs. Please dont do that, it weakens your already flimsy arguments

OMG again, you are being obtuse
YOU just stated a FALSE statement.
GRAVY corrected your statement!
Its not splitting hairs!

[Docker]

There must have been a lot of this fuel. Some burned off in a huge fireball, some destroyed the basement and some brought down a 110 storey building. Big fuel tanks those.

[gumboot]

False. Fuel explosions caused that damage throughout the elevator areas in the WTC, which you would know if you had bothered to read the eyewitness accounts (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40).


Gravy do you have a compliation of eye witness testimony specific to this? I recall putting together a compilation of accounts from various floors for a specific post at one point, but it would be a useful resource to have handy, and I am sure there are many more than I uncovered.

-Gumboot

[Arus808]

Gravy you cannot prove this.

you can't prove that there were explosives in the basement.

however, gravy has evidence that there wasnt any.

[Docker]

OMG again, you are being obtuse
YOU just stated a FALSE statement.
GRAVY corrected your statement!
Its not splitting hairs!

It is splitting hairs if the correction makes no real difference to the content or context of what I said.

[Garb]

There must have been a lot of this fuel. Some burned off in a huge fireball, some destroyed the basement and some brought down a 110 storey building. Big fuel tanks those.

See now you are just being annoying.

[bonavada]

How are we meant to perceive the following?

"Engineer Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the sixth sub-basement of the north tower, said that after an explosion he and a co-worker went up to the C level, where there was a small machine shop. “There was nothing there but rubble,” said Pecoraro. “We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press--gone!” They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil." Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, Pecoraro was convinced that a bomb had gone off."

you forgot the following, mike and his mate found that door then, WALKED THROUGH THE OPEN DOORWAY to continue the ascent to the lobby. clear evidence that the explosion originated ABOVE level B at least. how could an explosion down in the depths of the bathtub SUCK a door off its hinges TOWARD that explosion?
also if you cared to read the whole mike pecararo account he does not say there WAS a car fire on the parking level only that, "We smelled kerosene" "I was thinking MAYBE a car fire was upstairs"
the WHOLE MIKE PECARARO STORY IS HERE (http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029)
read it. maybe you won't make so many elementary mistakes when trying to work out what happened.

BV

[Arus808]

There must have been a lot of this fuel. Some burned off in a huge fireball, some destroyed the basement and some brought down a 110 storey building. Big fuel tanks those.

did you even bother to research prior to posting here.
Its estimated that only 20-40% of the fuel was "burned" up in the initial impact.

Tell me genius, where the heck is all that extra fuel going to go?

[Docker]

Typical CT. You don't agree with the official explaination, but when asked what did happen, who did it, or how, you all revert to "I don't know"

Convenient, no?

I could ask you "show me an example of a car bomb causing that damage or withdraw your contention" but then you would answer "I never said it was a car bomb"

You CTist are cowards, by not providing any case, but only asking questions. Be a man and stop faqing around, tell us WHAT EXACTLY happened on 9/11.

A car bomb blew out six levels in 1993.

[Arus808]

It is splitting hairs if the correction makes no real difference to the content or context of what I said.

YOUR context and content, made your statement sound like you are maintaining that the car bomb was Directly beneath the towers.

Its does make a difference

YOu surely are taking every known tactic out of tha CTER manual.

[Docker]

did you even bother to research prior to posting here.
Its estimated that only 20-40% of the fuel was "burned" up in the initial impact.

Tell me genius, where the heck is all that extra fuel going to go?

Show me a source for your extremely wide estimate 20-40%

The elevators didnt even go all the way to the top and were sealed.

Your proposing the magic fuel theory like the magic bullet

[Bell]

A car bomb blew out six levels in 1993.

Duck and cover.

We're talking eight years later here. September 11, 2001. What happened that day, according to you?

[Arus808]

A car bomb blew out six levels in 1993.

false again.

it created 30 meter hole and destroyed only 4 levels.

Here you make it sound like entire floors were destroyed.

[Docker]

Uh oh, said a word twice! How terrible is my argument!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel-air_explosive

And define what kind of rubble. The quote wasn't very clear.

Your using wikipedia as a source?

Funny that because in another thread I was told by skeptics that wikipedia wasn't reliable.

[Arus808]

Show me a source for your extremely wide estimate 20-40%
fema, nist, and subsequent reports.

The elevators didnt even go all the way to the top and were sealed.
You were already told that this was wropng
the shafts ran the length of the building.
they weren't sealed. Otherwise how the hell would people use them elevators!?


Your proposing the magic fuel theory like the magic bullet
god you are being purposefully obtuse.

[Garb]

Show me a source for your extremely wide estimate 20-40%

The elevators didnt even go all the way to the top and were sealed.

Your proposing the magic fuel theory like the magic bullet

So people had to use stairs the rest of the way? :jaw-dropp

[Garb]

Your using wikipedia as a source?

Funny that because in another thread I was told by skeptics that wikipedia wasn't reliable.

Wikipedia has its own sources to cite all the information. Did you not know that?

[Gravy]

Now your just splitting hairs. Please dont do that, it weakens your already flimsy argumentsSplitting hairs??? You said the 1993 bomb went off in the basement of one of the towers. It didn't. See the difference?

Please point out an argument of mine that's flimsy. Now.

Are you going to take a break and read the eyewitness accounts (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40)before digging any deeper?

Here are some more that aren't included in that post:
1st Sub-basement: William Rodriguez

"On 9/11, at 8:46, I was at the basement of the North Tower, the first tower to be impacted, the second one to fall.

While I was there, a second or two before the plane hit, there was a huge explosion on the sublevel b-2 to sublevel b-3."

Host: "So there was an explosion from below you?"

WR: "Correct. And that was, you know (snaps fingers), a second or two before the impact of the plane."

Source: At 11:40 in the video "What's the Truth – How Indeed Did the Twin Towers Collapse?"

Rodriguez again:
And all of a sudden we heard boom! And I thought it was a generator that blew up in the basement. And I said to myself: Oh my God, I think that's the generator. And I was going to verbalize it, and when I finished saying that in my mind, I hear boom! Right on the top. Pretty far away. So, it was a difference between coming from the basement and coming from the top.
Do high explosives create kerosene fireballs? 4th Sub-basement. Phillip Morelli describes the initial blast from the freight elevator shaft, and what appears to be the impact of a falling elevator car:

"As I'm walking by the main freight car of the building, in the corridor, that's when I got blown. I mean, the impact of the explosion, of whatever happened, it threw me to the floor, and that's when everything started happening. It knocked me right to the floor. Of course you didn't know what it was, you're assuming something just fell over in the loading dock, something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened, and all of a sudden you just felt the floor moving, and you get up, and the walls – and then, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, you know the elevators, fell down, so I was right near the main freight car, so I assume what that was. [Describing the same event] Then, you know, you heard that coming towards you, I was racing, I was going towards the bathrooms, you know, all of a sudden, and a big impact happened again, and all the ceiling tiles were falling down, the light fixtures falling, swinging out of the ceiling.

And I come running out of the door, and everything – the walls were down, and now I started running towards the parking lot. [He describes going underground from WTC 1 to 2, helping injured people.] And then all of a sudden it happened all over again. Building 2 got hit. Again, I don't know that, I just know something else hit into the floor. Right in the basement you felt it. Walls were caving in, everything that was going on. I mean, I know people that got killed in the basement, I know people that got broken legs in the basement, people that got reconstructive surgery because the walls hit them in the face."
http://www.ny1.com/pages/RRR/911special_survivors.html
Will you read the rest of the accounts and tell us if, and why, you disagree with them? Just asking questions. I've already taken the trouble to provide the answers.

[Docker]

See now you are just being annoying.

Just taking tips from you lad.

[Arus808]

So people had to use stairs the rest of the way? :jaw-dropp

yeah he';s forgetting on purpose that there were people stuck in some of the elevators.
that the naudet film showed several people getting out of an elevator and they smelt of jet fuel and some had burns on them.
that in the naudet film they even described smelling fuel.

Guess facts just doesn't work in the world that Docker lives in.

[Bell]

So people had to use stairs the rest of the way? :jaw-dropp

Indeed! To get from the indoor observation deck to the outdoor one, you couldn't use an elevator. You had to use stairs. Lucky those were escalators though.

[Garb]

Just taking tips from you lad.

You are soooo funny.


Too bad that doesn't prove any of your arguments true. Congrats.

[Docker]

Splitting hairs??? You said the 1993 bomb went off in the basement of one of the towers. It didn't. See the difference?

Please point out an argument of mine that's flimsy. Now.

Are you going to take a break and read the eyewitness accounts (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40)before digging any deeper?

Here are some more that aren't included in that post:

Will you read the rest of the accounts and tell us if, and why, you disagree with them? Just asking questions. I've already taken the trouble to provide the answers.

I refuse to even discuss eyewitness accounts with people that just cherry pick the ones that support them.

I have seen witnesses who say they heard a clap of thunder and a shockwave before wtc7 collapsed, but of course debunkers overlook these as it suits them.

[Docker]

You are soooo funny.


Too bad that doesn't prove any of your arguments true. Congrats.

I havent needed to prove my arguments, you have been doing that for me.

[Garb]

I refuse to even discuss eyewitness accounts with people that just cherry pick the ones that support them.

I have seen witnesses who say they heard a clap of thunder and a shockwave before wtc7 collapsed, but of course debunkers overlook these as it suits them.

What witnesses? Where were they? How far away? Were they sure it wasn't during collapse? That maybe they were just hearing the structural support system fail?

[Garb]

I havent needed to prove my arguments, you have been doing that for me.

It's a shame that isn't true. Care to try again?

[Gravy]

I refuse to even discuss eyewitness accounts with people that just cherry pick the ones that support them.DingDingDing! We have another one. Provide your accounts, then, Docker. We're all glad to read them.

If you accuse me of cherry-picking, you must know of accounts that contradict the ones I provided. Present them, please.

I have seen witnesses who say they heard a clap of thunder and a shockwave before wtc7 collapsed, but of course debunkers overlook these as it suits them.Present your source, please.

See how this works? Is any of this sinking in?

[Docker]

What witnesses? Where were they? How far away? Were they sure it wasn't during collapse? That maybe they were just hearing the structural support system fail?

You were not there that day I presume? I believe them over you pal. Some are emergency personnel too.

[Bell]

I refuse to even discuss eyewitness accounts with people that just cherry pick the ones that support them.

I have seen witnesses who say they heard a clap of thunder and a shockwave before wtc7 collapsed, but of course debunkers overlook these as it suits them.

:dl:

Nope. No cherrypicking on your side, Docker.

[Garb]

You were not there that day I presume? I believe them over you pal. Some are emergency personnel too.

You wanna answer my questions about your witnesses or not?

[Gravy]

You were not there that day I presume? I believe them over you pal. Some are emergency personnel too.Second time: present your sources.

[gumboot]

There must have been a lot of this fuel. Some burned off in a huge fireball, some destroyed the basement and some brought down a 110 storey building. Big fuel tanks those.


Yeah. You get that, on jumbo jets. NIST estimate the fireball from UA175's impact burned up about 1,600kg of Jet Fuel. That's out of a total fuel capacity of 51,000kg.

I linked to video of a FAE in action. Notice how small the container of fuel is. And note how large the fireball is.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

Second time: present your sources.

If you have done the research you claim then you have also seen these accounts. If not then i'm not going to do your homework for you.

[Bell]

If you have done the research you claim then you have also seen these accounts. If not then i'm not going to do your homework for you.

Duck and cover.

[Docker]

Yeah. You get that, on jumbo jets. NIST estimate the fireball from UA175's impact burned up about 1,600kg of Jet Fuel. That's out of a total fuel capacity of 51,000kg.

I linked to video of a FAE in action. Notice how small the container of fuel is. And note how large the fireball is.

-Gumboot

We aren't talking about the south tower here

[Garb]

If you have done the research you claim then you have also seen these accounts. If not then i'm not going to do your homework for you.

Sounds like a cop-out to me.

[Bell]

We aren't talking about the south tower here

Neither about the '93 bombing, but yet you brought that up :confused:

[Docker]

Duck and cover.

No bell, I just be bothered digging out accounts for a man I know has seen them.

[Docker]

Sounds like a cop-out to me.

Have you seen Austin Powers? Are you Gravy's mini-me?

[Gravy]

Gravy do you have a compliation of eye witness testimony specific to this? I recall putting together a compilation of accounts from various floors for a specific post at one point, but it would be a useful resource to have handy, and I am sure there are many more than I uncovered.

-GumbootYes, I've been linking to it (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40)since the first page. :rolleyes:

It's okay, gumboot, you've been out of the action for a while!

Plus the quotes I included a few posts back, plus my conversation with William Rodriguez.

[Bell]

No bell, I just be bothered digging out accounts for a man I know has seen them.

Nope, you made the claim:

I have seen witnesses who say they heard a clap of thunder and a shockwave before wtc7 collapsed, but of course debunkers overlook these as it suits them.

It's up to you to back up your claim, or withdraw it.

[Garb]

Have you seen Austin Powers? Are you Gravy's mini-me?

No. It just sounds like you are copping-out.


Get over the fact that I am going to get involved in the discussion.

[gumboot]

We aren't talking about the south tower here


That's true. AA11 had an even GREATER fuel capacity because it was a 767-223ER, rather than a 767-222.

The ER models of the 200 and 300 series have a 74,000kg fuel capacity, rather than the 51,000kg capacity of the regular models.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

No. It just sounds like you are copping-out.


Get over the fact that I am going to get involved in the discussion.

Really? Have you seen the ignore buttun over there?

[Gravy]

If you have done the research you claim then you have also seen these accounts. If not then i'm not going to do your homework for you.I've read over 14,000 pages of first-person accounts, and seen many videos. I have not seen the accounts you speak of, either for the towers or for WTC 7.

Either present them or admit you cannot.

[Garb]

Really? Have you seen the ignore buttun over there?

What does that have to do with anything?

[Bell]

What does that have to do with anything?

You missed the whole poverty00 episode, didn't you? :D

[gumboot]

Yes, I've been linking to it (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40)since the first page. :rolleyes:

It's okay, gumboot, you've been out of the action for a while!

Plus the quotes I included a few posts back, plus my conversation with William Rodriguez.


Oops. Heh. :o Many of the quotes are familiar and many are new. Also, I notice there's a few I had come across that aren't in your compilation, but would make excellent additions (accounts specific to destroyed elevators on multiple floors). If I can manage to dig up the post I'll link you to it.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

I've read over 14,000 pages of first-person accounts, and seen many videos. I have not seen the accounts you speak of, either for the towers or for WTC 7.

Either present them or admit you cannot.

How about this video?

Contains the quote I mention along with people saying wtc7 is about to blow up.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4556787288866368337

[Docker]

What does that have to do with anything?

Just saying I dont have to see your garbled nonsense if I dont have to. Incidentally, is that why you're called garb?

[Garb]

Just saying I dont have to see your garbled nonsense if I dont have to. Incidentally, is that why you're called garb?

Are you threatening to ignore me? Well then, why don't you show me my "garbled nonsense"

[Dog Town]

You missed the whole poverty00 episode, didn't you? :D

You might have something there. He was so at a loss, for a three day suspension, he broke that, only to get banned. Vowed to come back! Not saying it is... just thinking of questions! Things that make you go Hmmmm.....

[Docker]

Are you threatening to ignore me? Well then, why don't you show me my "garbled nonsense"

Im threatening nothing. You implied that I am OBLIGED to look at your posts. I just pointed out that I am not.

[Garb]

You missed the whole poverty00 episode, didn't you? :D

He wouldn't be related to P'doherty who he?

[Garb]

Im threatening nothing. You implied that I am OBLIGED to look at your posts. I just pointed out that I am not.

Actually no I didn't. I implied that you shouldn't whine every time I say something.

[Docker]

You might have something there. He was so at a loss, for a three day suspension, he broke that, only to get banned. Vowed to come back! Not saying it is... just thinking of questions! Things that make you go Hmmmm.....

I have already been accused of being killtown, are you already accusing me of being someone else?

You see a lot of shadows don't you Dog Town.

[Docker]

Actually no I didn't. I implied that you shouldn't whine every time I say something.

Whine is not the word I would use. Hand you your posterier in a bag would be a far more appropriate set of words.

[Docker]

So now I'm pdoherty lol

Actually he is in other forums telling a very different story about this place.

[Garb]

Whine is not the word I would use. Hand you your posterier in a bag would be a far more appropriate set of words.

No. Whine is the correct term.

Have you seen Austin Powers? Are you Gravy's mini-me?

That is an attack because for some reason discussing something seems to strike a nerve with you. Seriously, do you hate it when people come into discussions or make an observation based on your statements?

[Bell]

I have already been accused of being killtown, are you already accusing me of being someone else?

You see a lot of shadows don't you Dog Town.

We're just asking questions.

[Bell]

So now I'm pdoherty lol

Actually he is in other forums telling a very different story about this place.

Of course he would. He couldn't show up at LC and tell he got banned because he tried to circumnavigate the JREF rules, would he? No, he talks about how he beated Gravy's ass (lol), and therefor Gravy got him banned. Luckely some other LC members pointed out his misconceptions.

[Garb]

You missed the whole poverty00 episode, didn't you? :D

Wow. I just got that reference. :boggled:

[Docker]

Of course he would. He couldn't show up at LC and tell he got banned because he tried to circumnavigate the JREF rules, would he? No, he talks about how he beated Gravy's ass (lol), and therefor Gravy got him banned. Luckely some other LC members pointed out his misconceptions.

He has claimed he did nothing wrong on 911blogger.

[Gravy]

I have seen witnesses who say they heard a clap of thunder and a shockwave before wtc7 collapsed, but of course debunkers overlook these as it suits them.(bolding mine)

False. I link to them in my paper on WTC 7. You will learn a lot by reading it. With your speed-reading skills, it should take only a few minutes to get through the 106 pages. It's linked in my signature.

Have at it, and then let us know how you reconcile the accounts of the first responders with the demolition claim.

But first, present your witnesses that contradict the "cherry-picked" accounts I've given of the north tower jet fuel explosion.

I'll read those while you're reading my WTC 7 paper.

[Docker]

No. Whine is the correct term.



That is an attack because for some reason discussing something seems to strike a nerve with you. Seriously, do you hate it when people come into discussions or make an observation based on your statements?

I like discussions. I just don't like the little cheerleaders who let intelligent people do the work.

[Docker]

(bolding mine)

False. I link to them in my paper on WTC 7. You will learn a lot by reading it. With your speed-reading skills, it should take only a few minutes to get through the 106 pages. It's linked in my signature.

Have at it, and then let us know how you reconcile the accounts of the first responders with the demolition claim.

But first, present your witnesses that contradict the "cherry-picked" accounts I've given of the north tower jet fuel explosion.

I'll read those while you're reading my WTC 7 paper.

I read some of that paper but as you say its long so I will read the rest.

[Bell]

He has claimed he did nothing wrong on 911blogger.

If it's on the internet, it must be true.

[Garb]

I like discussions. I just don't like the little cheerleaders who let intelligent people do the work.

Who says I was being a cheerleader? I called you out on copping-out. I never said "Go Gravy he's our man!"

[Bell]

Wow. I just got that reference. :boggled:

LOL, guess you're still sleepy? Judging by your avatar? :D

[Docker]

If it's on the internet, it must be true.

Bell I didnt say it was true. I shall check out his posts here and see what happened. He sounds agrieved, asking 911blogger people to join JREF and whup Gravy.

[Bell]

Bell I didnt say it was true. I shall check out his posts here and see what happened. He sounds agrieved, asking 911blogger people to join JREF and whup Gravy.

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=53

pdoherty76 has been suspended for 3 days for multiple breaches of his/her Membership Agreement.

pdoherty76 has been banned for trying to circumvent his suspension (see:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66667) by using a different account.

[Docker]

Fair enough Bell, he seems to think that his opinions got him banned.

Does that happen?

[DavidJames]

Just taking tips from you lad.Now where have I heard that before?

[CurtC]

I am not killtown, although I admire his voracity.
Yeah, that's Killtown. All voracity, no veracity.

[Bell]

Fair enough Bell, he seems to think that his opinions got him banned.

Does that happen?

Nope. The fact that he was trying to create a new acount got him banned.

His suspension, I don't know. Guess that had to do with his juvenile behavior, calling names to almost every member he replied to, but I'm not sure.

ETA: He knows why he got banned, he just wants to come across the poor victim/glorious hero.

[DavidJames]

Just taking tips from you lad.
Now where have I heard that before?From across the pond r u, doc?

[Docker]

From across the pond r u, doc?

Like it's your business where i'm from.

[Docker]

Nope. The fact that he was trying to create a new acount got him banned.

His suspension, I don't know. Guess that had to do with his juvenile behavior, calling names to almost every member he replied to, but I'm not sure.

ETA: He knows why he got banned, he just wants to come across the poor victim/glorious hero.

To be fair, i've had a bit of abuse already. It's not debating to just call someone thick and a retard (even if they are thick and retarded lol)

[Gravy]

Docker, I'd like you to be honest. You said I cherry-picked accounts of the north tower elevator shaft/basement explosion.

Do you know of accounts that contradict those that I've presented? If so, when will you be posting them?

If not, your apology is expected.

[beachnut]

Now your really stretching. I challenge you to find me one example of a jet fuel/petrol fire or explosion creating rubble and knocking out walls, which he also says.

fuel air bomb, just a little one (one is in your car too)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk

[Docker]

fuel air bomb, just a little one (one is in your car too)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk

You wishing me dead? Nice.

[Docker]

fuel air bomb, just a little one (one is in your car too)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk

So you admit there were bombs in the basement. Thankyou.

[Dog Town]

So you admit there were bombs in the basement. Thankyou.

That statement explains alot about your comprehension!

[Gravy]

fuel air bomb, just a little one (one is in your car too)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk
beachnut, I reported this post to the forum moderators. Totally uncool.

ETA: OH, YOU MEAN THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE, RIGHT? Sorry.

[LashL]

beachnut, I reported this post to the forum moderators. Totally uncool.

What? Seriously? Please tell me you're kidding.

[Gravy]

What? Seriously? Please tell me you're kidding.I was serious for a minute, when I read Docker's post. Then I got a raging clue.

[Docker]

Its interesting that when asked for examples of fuel causing basement rubble you all send me to articles about bombs....

[gumboot]

Its interesting that when asked for examples of fuel causing basement rubble you all send me to articles about bombs....


:hb:

Thermobaric weapons use the blast generate by the ignition of flammable fuel vapour to cause damage.

Got it?

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Second time:

Docker, I'd like you to be honest. You said I cherry-picked accounts of the north tower elevator shaft/basement explosion.

Do you know of accounts that contradict those that I've presented? If so, when will you be posting them?

If not, your apology is expected.

[Docker]

Second time:

Docker, I'd like you to be honest. You said I cherry-picked accounts of the north tower elevator shaft/basement explosion.

Do you know of accounts that contradict those that I've presented? If so, when will you be posting them?

If not, your apology is expected.
I said no such thing. I made a general statement about debunkers. William Rodriguez and Pecoraro totally contradict your assertion.

Incidentally, I think its a disgrace that the people in this forum accuse a national hero like Rodriguez of changing his story for fame.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[gumboot]

Incidentally, I think its a disgrace that the people in this forum accuse a national hero like Rodriguez of changing his story for fame.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.


I think we just pointed out that his story changed. I don't know WHY he changed it.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

:hb:

Thermobaric weapons use the blast generate by the ignition of flammable fuel vapour to cause damage.

Got it?

-Gumboot

So yet again I ask for an example of this occuring without a weapon.

[gumboot]

I said no such thing. I made a general statement about debunkers. William Rodriguez and Pecoraro totally contradict your assertion.


They don't. Indeed, their accounts perfectly match the version of events we believe to be accurate. It is merely their INTERPRETATION of their accounts that we question.

-Gumboot

[Docker]

I think we just pointed out that his story changed. I don't know WHY he changed it.

-Gumboot

Not true. I have seen other threads here that claimed he changed it when he got involved with the truth movement.

He didnt change his story. He was in shock and a most unreliable witness when he gave his first account.

[gumboot]

So yet again I ask for an example of this occuring without a weapon.


Why?

AA11 and UA175 were weapons.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Not true. I have seen other threads here that claimed he changed it when he got involved with the truth movement.

Well maybe that's true. That doesn't explain WHY he changed it.



He didnt change his story.

Yes, he did.



He was in shock and a most unreliable witness when he gave his first account.

No, he wasn't. Must we continue this ridiculous game?

-Gumboot

[Docker]

They don't. Indeed, their accounts perfectly match the version of events we believe to be accurate. It is merely their INTERPRETATION of their accounts that we question.

-Gumboot

They worked in the twin towers and even lived through one bombing (in Rodriguez case), they were there on 9/11 and you challenge their interpretation from behind your PC, doing a bit of googling.

Go and tell these heroes that they didnt see what they saw.

[Docker]

Why?

AA11 and UA175 were weapons.

-Gumboot

More evasion. Cite an example of fuel doing tyhis to a building or retract your speculative claims.

[LashL]

He didnt change his story. He was in shock and a most unreliable witness when he gave his first account.

He has, in fact, changed his story several times and it seems that it keeps getting better with age.

[Skibum]

Remember this...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/10/nyregion/10cnd-blast.html?ex=1310184000&en=3306079f195f5db4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I realize it's a different type gas but its the same principle.
Result, a leveled 4 story townhouse.

Gasoline explosion...
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3737/is_200005/ai_n8895085

[Docker]

He has, in fact, changed his story several times and it seems that it keeps getting better with age.

Memory is a strange thing. After severe trauma suppressed memories can gradually surface. Indeed, total amnesia is not uncommon in such cases at the bieginning.

You are a disgrace. Go and make these claims to the national hero Rodriguez or are you a coward?

[Docker]

Remember this...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/10/nyregion/10cnd-blast.html?ex=1310184000&en=3306079f195f5db4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I realize it's a differnt type gas but its the same principle.
Result, a leveled 4 story townhouse.

Gasoline explosion...
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3737/is_200005/ai_n8895085

Good examples Skibum. Shame it took so long,

[gumboot]

They worked in the twin towers and even lived through one bombing (in Rodriguez case), they were there on 9/11 and you challenge their interpretation from behind your PC, doing a bit of googling.


In short, yes. Because people quite often misinterpret what they see and hear when they don't have all the facts. As an example, an engineer makes an assumption that the smell of kerosene is from burning cars, because he has no information to think otherwise, even though cars don't have kerosene in them.

Had he been aware at the time that a jet airliner had just smashed into the building and spilled jet fuel down the elevator shafts I'm sure he would have immediately assumed he was smelling said jet fuel.

My assessment of what happened is based on the COLLECTIVE experience of HUNDREDS of people. Not two people in the basement who had no f-ing idea what was going on.

Your "bomb in the basement" theory does not explain the extensive damage to elevator shafts and doors throughout the building, from basement to roof. It does not explain the specific accounts of "kerosene" and "jet fuel" given by a great number of people who, just like your two pet witnesses, were heroes who were there on the day. It does not explain the repeated accounts of flash burns (Rodriguez mentions these burns himself, you may recall).

In contrast, the theory that jet fuel spilled down elevator shafts and ignited creating devastating compression waves and flash burns IS consistant with EVERY survivor (and non-survivor) testimony I have ever come across, including the two you like to quote.



Go and tell these heroes that they didnt see what they saw.

They saw f-all. They didn't even HEAR that much. And (allowing for changes in story) I think they heard and saw what they say they heard and saw. What I DON'T think is it meant what they decided it meant.

-Gumboot

[LashL]

Memory is a strange thing. After severe trauma suppressed memories can gradually surface. Indeed, total amnesia is not uncommon in such cases at the bieginning.

You are a disgrace. Go and make these claims to the national hero Rodriguez or are you a coward?

Riiiiiight. To you, it's all about suppressed memories and amnesia. Got it. It has absolutely nothing to do with multi-million dollar lawsuits and repeatedly changing stories. Sure.

The truth is that because you don't like the facts, you choose to ignore them and you try to disparage others for pointing them out.

It's easy to see the "disgrace" here, and it isn't me, or anyone else who actually brings intelligence, rational, logical and critical thought to the table. It's nonsensical woos like you who are incapable of rational, logical, or critical thought who are disgraceful.

Similarly, your tossing around the "coward" label in my direction is just ridiculous. But you knew that.

I actually feel half sorry for William Rodriguez because I believe that if and when he ever gets to trial (although last I heard, his main lawsuit has come to somewhat of a screeching halt), he'll be annihilated on cross.

[gumboot]

Memory is a strange thing.


It's well established that memory usually becomes much weaker over time. People tend to incorporate new information into their "memory" so that details become a genuine part of their memory even though they were never originally there.

For example someone who witnesses a murder will replace the killer's face with a specific suspect. Even though they never saw that person, they will genuinely believe they remember that person.

No doubt you are aware of false memory and memory bias.

-Gumboot

[qarnos]

Sorry for jumping into this thread so late and stirring up the dregs, but I noticed a lie Docker told which has gone uncontested:

He claims the kerosene was from a car fire. Hes an engineer, he may know the difference.

Docker is citing this source (http://st12.startlogic.com/%7Exenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm).

The actuall quote was "I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs". This is a far cry from "He claims the kerosene was from a car fire".

Why do you so blatantly lie, Docker?

[CurtC]

Memory is a strange thing. After severe trauma suppressed memories can gradually surface.
Are those re-surfaced suppressed memories reliable?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

There must have been a lot of this fuel. Some burned off in a huge fireball, some destroyed the basement and some brought down a 110 storey building. Big fuel tanks those.

NIST estimates that there was 10,000 gallons of fuel remaining on the jets at the time of impact. The fireballs consumed 1000-3000 of that, leaving 7000-9000 gallons remaining to fuel the fires, spill down the maintenance/elevator shafts (which the planes had damaged), etc.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

did you even bother to research prior to posting here.
Its estimated that only 20-40% of the fuel was "burned" up in the initial impact.

Tell me genius, where the heck is all that extra fuel going to go?


10-30%

[kookbreaker]

More evasion. Cite an example of fuel doing tyhis to a building or retract your speculative claims.


The B-25 that hit the Empire State building in the 40's had only 800 gallons of fuel. Yet enough of that went down the elevator shafts to start fires in the lobby of that building.

The jets that hit the towers had 10,000 gallons.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Docker's posts are laughable, How much does a 50 ton hydraulic press weigh, my 40 ton Manual Hydraulic press weights about 200 Pounds!
http://www.pacceram.com/50t.htm One like mine,http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=46768.
The fact it is a 50 ton press does not mean it weighs 50 tons, that is simply the maximum force it can exert though hydraulic pressure.
Kerosene and Diesel from a Diesel car smell almost Identical, Let us also not forget that When exposed to fire things tend to explode, what else was In the offices or on the plane that could have exploded in the elevator shafts?
For instance if an Oxygen tank ruptured in the shafts it would have exploded and reacted with the fuel and could have caused the damage Docker is referring to.
Sound travels at close to 5000 meters per second in steel, but only a fraction of that though air, the effect has been noted hundreds of times.
The very reason your voice sounds different when recorded is because of the way sound travels faster and better though solids, than though air.
Docker is simply using Assumption and junk Science.