Is Modern Christianity Polytheistic?

[Tormac]

I was having a discussion with a Moslem friend about comparative religions, and ran into an issue I'd never thought of.

I'm an atheist, but come from a strong fundamentalist Christian background, and often find myself representing the "Christian viewpoint" in these debates, but found that I could not explain the concept of the trinity to my Moslem friend.

He is convinced that Christity is not monotheistic, but tri-theistic. Its the trinity thing that has him convinced. When I considered myself a Christian I had never thought of my faith as a polytheistic one. It seemed easy for me to hold the idea that the father/son/holy spirit were different incarnations of the same entity, but I could not adequately explain this concept to someone who does not accept it already. In fact I was close to conceding that modern Christianity is polytheistic.


I'd love to get some input on a way to describe the trinity that does not sound like apologetics. I know there are a lot of Christians on this board who might have a better articulation of the concept of the trinity than I do. Who can give me a hand?

[arcticpenguin]

Someone give the man a hand - with five fingers.

[ceo_esq]

Boethius (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anicius_Manlius_Severinus_Boëthius) to the rescue (http://www.ccel.org/b/boethius/trinity/trinity.html).

[Robman75]

Why exactly would you be interested in doing this?

I was raised Catholic, before turning to the dark side, as my family puts it, (aside: most would think being raised Catholic reason enough to leave it all behind) and I think your explanation of the whole thing quite satisfactory. But why bother? Any explanation you make on the subject will certainly come off as an apologetic for Christianity, because you're trying to make sense of it!

I can't speak for your own experiences, but for my own. That whole lack of sense and internal continuity was what turned me around.

[Crossbow]

I have often wondered about that sort of thing too, especially when one is talking about Catholics.

Many of them revere Mary to the point of godhood. Then there is the practice of having a saint interecede for their soul when they die and appear before god. Then there is oft used phrase "Mother of God!". And so on.

Smells like polytheism to me.

[Tormac]

Well I understand where you are coming from Robman. There is a lot of incongruity with all the religions that I'm familiar with, or I suppose any philosophy or belief system that is as old as Christianity.

As far as why, I'm looking at it from a scholarly stand point. I've always been fascinated with religions, even though I've not found one that I would say was objectively true. For many people religion is a defining characteristic of their life, and it is hard to understand the actions of some societies without understanding their own cultural constructs. Even if I don't think that they are literally true it is hard to make sense of the institutions of western culture without taking the religious institutions into account.

[Tormac]

I was at one time a bible thumping fundamentalist (or at least raised to be one). I've often heard the charge that the catholic church is as pantheistic as the classical Greeks with a saint/minor deity for every day of the week. You're not the first one to bring this up Crossbow.

Of course there is still a lot of animosity on the far Christian right directed at the Roman Catholic church. But I think that that is a well know fact already.

I was just stuck on the idea that the trinity itself was poly-theistic in nature, and wanted to find out what others thought.

[Tormac]

Thanks for the link ceo_esq.

[Tormac]

Well I'm not sure that Boethius would be convincing to anyone who seriously thought that the trinity was pantheisttic on a scholarly level, but maybe its just one of those questions of faith.

[Quasi]

Based on my experience, many christians are turning towards Mary as on equal footing as the Trinity. A recent petition by loads of Catholics to place Mary into the Trinity (the Quad?) is very good evidence of this fact. Couple this with the obsession/books/trinkets about angels and I think an argument that modern christianity is polytheism is not out of the question. There was a good thread here about Pagan beliefs borrowed by christianity, especially about the story of Jesus mirroring a Pagan hero. If this were true, then christianity has solid roots in polytheism, which would explain a lot. Do people need more than just a single entity?

[Tormac]

From Quasi
There was a good thread here about Pagan beliefs borrowed by christianity, especially about the story of Jesus mirroring a Pagan hero. If this were true, then christianity has solid roots in polytheism, which would explain a lot.

There is no doubt in my mind that much of the Western World's different flavor's of Christianity have strong pagan roots going to the need to get the Greeks to accept the religion.

The classical story of Hercules parallels that of Christ on many levels, and predates it IIRC. I've read that Christianity was considered the "Jewish Hercules cult" by the Romans for a short period of time before Christianity officially made the brake from Judaism.

But then in the world of competition it is often easier to co-opt a well know brand than start a new one. :)

I was interested in the idea that the trinity itself was inherently a pagan idea, since that seems to be one of the basic models of divinity that defines the Christianity of Western Culture.

[Melissa Johnson]

The thing about Catholicism is its ability to co-opt native custom and local gods(desses), especially these days. Some of the Masses held in Mid-and South America are fantastic amalgams of ancient custom and modern religion.

I was raised Catholic and was always perplexed when asked by Protestant friends if Catholics were "christian'--my response was we were the first Christians, which always rather set them back a bit. What, they never heard of Luther? Reformation? Sadly, quite a few hadn't, though they had been oddly informed that we didn't believe Christ was the Savior.

The trinity was always explained to me as a triune God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost--no, it don't make sense, but there you have it). Each was an aspect of all. And "Mother of God" --well, the Virgin was the mother of Christ, who was the Son, who is the second aspect of the Trinity. Confusing? Yes! But fun for the whole family. Polytheistic? Nah. Not really. There is and always will be the number one guy in the sky, with the omniscience and stuff--the saints and angels and Virgin are only intercessors to the top. Supernatural bureaucracy at its finest. Plus, it keeps hack painters in Milan busy cranking out saccharine holy cards so my Mom has something to give me on major holidays, like St. Swivvins Day.

[Tormac]

I did not mean for this thread to pick on Catholicism in particular. (My apologies I think I shoved the topic adrift :))

I realize that orthodox Catholicism is not any more poly-theistic than the most ardent Calvinist sect. But that many protestant groups use the image of popular Catholicism to raise the image of paganism.

What I was wondering about was the Trinity itself.

Melissa Johnson, you wrote

"There is and always will be the number one guy in the sky"

Question, when you say that are you talking about God the Father? or the whole Trinity? The image of the "big guy in the sky" seems to me to be a classic reference to god the father in particular and not the entire trinity.

Or maybe I'm trying to put words into your mouth.

Just curious how other Christians would describe the nature of the trinity of someone of a differing faith, or a atheist who seriously thought that?

[Ossai]

Boethius was nothing more than special pleading. True Believers understand and don't question!

As for christianity being polytheistic, don't just look at the trinity. You also have to consider Lucifer/Satan/Adversary/whatever name is popular. You've suddenly got a pantheon. Then take a look at the level between humanity and godhood. If as the bible states that humanity was gods ultimate creation then why have angels? Then you get to add in the people that have ascended to heaven without dying, Elisha being the one brought to mind (I think there is another but I'm not sure offhand).
The RC Church is even more confusing since it also adds in the virgin Mary as well as a whole host of saints.

Ossai

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Tormac
I did not mean for this thread to pick on Catholicism in particular. (My apologies I think I shoved the topic adrift :))

I realize that orthodox Catholicism is not any more poly-theistic than the most ardent Calvinist sect. But that many protestant groups use the image of popular Catholicism to raise the image of paganism.

What I was wondering about was the Trinity itself.

Melissa Johnson, you wrote

"There is and always will be the number one guy in the sky"

Question, when you say that are you talking about God the Father? or the whole Trinity? The image of the "big guy in the sky" seems to me to be a classic reference to god the father in particular and not the entire trinity.

Or maybe I'm trying to put words into your mouth.

Just curious how other Christians would describe the nature of the trinity of someone of a differing faith, or a atheist who seriously thought that?

Well, not speaking for other Christians, it was always put forward to me that although we do worship a Trinity, that God the Father was the ultimate source and the other two aspects were lesser varieties. If you have the inclination to go back and study some of the Church's history, you'll find that there were rather violent disagreements early on about the nature of the trinity--my memory is sketchy, it's been awhile--as well as Christ's human/divine nature, and whether or not Mary was or remained a virgin. The current belief system is what won out over all the other wrangling--and the wranglers often did not survive the outcome. It's been discussed here before--St. Athanasius had a lot to say about all this, and the Trinity idea is not exactly the oldest aspect of Christianity. It came along some years (centuries) later. It's all esoteric and arbitrary, of course, and would be amusing if not so serious...

[roger]

Let's not forget that not even the Vatican Council can explain it. It is officially described as a mystery, a term which is being used in a very specific way. Meaning that even after it has been explained it is "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness".

ya, right.

I was forced to go to catecism every week, and remember the nums trying to explain the trinity to us. That was one of many instances when I realized that they had no idea of what they were talking about.

So basically, you cannot explain it to your friend because the Catholic church itself cannot explain it in a rational manner, which they admit.

more info here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#IV

[triadboy]

The Trinity is one of those things that can't be explained. It is a 'mystery'. It is definitely polytheistic, but of course an xian will never admit to it.

I think the problem materialized under Constantine. They had to decide whether Jesus was a man or a god. The votes got tallyed and he became a god. So god was here on earth. But Jesus prays to god in heaven, so who is he praying to? Himself?

"God, forgive them for they know not what they do." Well, you do it....you're right there anyway.

The Holy Ghost is like a really bad super-hero sidekick. He doesn't say anything - he doesn't do anything - I think they should let him go.

[Tormac]

Thanks for the replies.

The exact place of Satan in the structure of angels was one of the things that got me in trouble.

I know what you're getting at Ossai. It always seemed to me that if Satan was a creation of God, and subject to God's omnipotent authority, then ultimately God is responsible for the evil deeds of Satan (just as I am morally responsible for a pet pit-bull).

If Satan is outside of God's authority and power to control then at best he's a full deity.

Maybe this is just a question that I'm going to have to let go on faith and give up on. :)

[c4ts]

God + Jesus + Satan = 3, and 3 > 1. Do the math. It's polytheism, even if you're only calling one divine entity "God." Each of the others match God's powers in some way, forming a pantheon, and at the same time, since they're not equal, a hierarchy.

[Yahweh]

I havent taken the time to read all the other replies but I'm going go out on a limb and say No, Christianity is not polytheistic because of that whole one god thing they got going. I dont think the Trinity refers to 3 seperate gods but I can see how someone might misinterpret it.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh
I havent taken the time to read all the other replies but I'm going go out on a limb and say No, Christianity is not polytheistic because of that whole one god thing they got going. I dont think the Trinity refers to 3 seperate gods but I can see how someone might misinterpret it.

Tell me, how do you rationally explain that an entity born of a god, with matching powers, is not a god? (This should be easy.)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by c4ts
God + Jesus + Satan = 3, and 3 > 1. Do the math. It's polytheism, even if you're only calling one divine entity "God." Each of the others match God's powers in some way, forming a pantheon, and at the same time, since they're not equal, a hierarchy.
I'm an atheist but I'm sure the Bible says God is the only god, Jesus was the son of God (meaning not a god), and Satan was a fallen pixie (also not a god). Using your equation it would be just as easy to say Mary was god, Moses was a god, and any number of Biblical characters making the number greater than 3, 4 or several dozen gods. God (1) + Jesus (0) + Satan (0) = 1. Hey, math is real easy when your using 0's and 1's.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by c4ts


Tell me, how do you rationally explain that an entity born of a god, with matching powers, is not a god? (This should be easy.)
I dont know, I'm a not a "Christian Theorist" (if thats the word I'm looking for). I'm sure the Bible doesnt refer to Satan as having the same power as God (such as making the universe and pretty flowers). Perhaps someone more learned about the Bible and Christianity should handle these types of questions, I dont think I'm the right guy to ask.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh

I dont know, I'm a not a "Christian Theorist" (if thats the word I'm looking for). I'm sure the Bible doesnt refer to Satan as having the same power as God (such as making the universe and pretty flowers). Perhaps someone more learned about the Bible and Christianity should handle these types of questions, I dont think I'm the right guy to ask.

I think this comes down to what a god is really. I mean, none of the Olympian gods had as much power as Zeus, but they were all his sons and daughters, and they were all gods. But other figures were demigods (Heracles comes to mind), where I would think Jesus belongs. But Jesus is not treated as a demigod by Christians today. He is supposed to be the same as God, which is confusing as hell, because at times he is prayed to seperately! I mean, are there other gods denied such a status because just one of them happens to be called "God?" Is there some sort of denial going on?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Tormac
Well I'm not sure that Boethius would be convincing to anyone who seriously thought that the trinity was pantheisttic on a scholarly level, but maybe its just one of those questions of faith.
It's a question of faith as to whether there is a Trinitarian God, but I think it's a question of metaphysics whether Trinitarianism is necessarily polytheistic. Boethius is writing primarily for other scholars (especially those with a good working knowledge of Aristotelian philosophy), so his arguments tend toward the scholarly.

Here's an excerpt (http://www.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/hwp204.htm) from a history of Western philosophy that includes a discussion of Boethius' arguments in the text I linked earlier.

For info, Gregory of Nyssa (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nyssa) also attempted to refute (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-05/Npnf2-05-28.htm#P2559_1755103) the notion of three Gods in Christianity.

According to legend, while St. Augustine (arguably the most outstanding intellect of his day) was struggling to get his mind around the notion of a triune God, he took a walk along the seashore and came across a small boy playing in the sand. The boy had dug a small hole in the sand with a spoon and was ladling seawater into it. When Augustine asked the boy what he was doing, he replied that he was attempting to spoon out all the water from the sea and pour it into the little hole. When Augustine explained to the boy how impossible his plan was, the boy told him “It would be easier for me to do this than for you to comprehend fully the nature of the Trinity.”

[Ossai]

Tormac
I know what you're getting at Ossai. It always seemed to me that if Satan was a creation of God, and subject to God's omnipotent authority, then ultimately God is responsible for the evil deeds of Satan (just as I am morally responsible for a pet pit-bull).

If Satan is outside of God's authority and power to control then at best he's a full deity. That is the problem exactly. If Satan is under the power of god then god is still responsible for everything. There can be no human responsibility because god created and controls everything - no freewill. If on the other hand Satan isn't under the power of god then Satan is another deity - polytheistic.

Yahweh
I'm an atheist but I'm sure the Bible says God is the only god Correct but the bible also refers to other gods as well. In Genesis the word for god is plural and later singular. It also refers to god as distinctly female. It has been speculated that the early Isralites' god was actually a pair (I would offer references but I can't remember where I read it - maybe Armstrong?)

Jesus was the son of God (meaning not a god), and Satan was a fallen pixie (also not a god).
Actually that would make Jesus a demi-god (Hercules, etc) also Jesus was a god or god and you have to remember the flying-sidekick the holy ghost, also god. So Father(1) + Jesus(1) + Holy Ghost(1) = (3) then add in the rest of the pantheon Satan + angels + ascendant mortals.

Ossai

[Finella]

Oy, this is a complicated one.

Since Tormac asked for a non-apologetic explanation of the Trinity, I'll give you how it was explained to me as an eight-year old budding Episcopalian. It's actually a joke. A priest used an egg to explain to a sunday school class the concept of the trinity. God the father was the shell, god the son was the yolk, and god the holy spirit the white. He got a bowl out and cracked the egg open to demonstrate this to the kids, and lo and behold, it was a double yolk. :)

My understanding of the trinity itself is that God is fully manifest in the father/mother, son, and spirit; they are three different aspects of God, without one being more God-like than the other. It's like looking at different facets of a jewel, seeing different reflections of the wholeness of God in this trinity. Being humans, we need to categorize God and make him/her more comprehensible, thus the Trinity. I would say that God is more fluid than this and therefore we are somewhat limited in understanding God's nature if we only looked at the Trinity.

This may be why we see other saints, inclding Mary, as Godlike, because our traditional triune notion of God does not seem to contain these other virtues we feel are very important to our spirituality. I would say that each of these saints' personalities are again other "facets" of God, and that by acknowledging these saints we are recognizing yet another characteristic of God.

Therefore, in my view (which I do realize is not at all the traditional Christian view) this is why Christianity is not polytheistic. Any polytheism is just a human way of understanding the Source by breaking up characteristics of the Source into managable, understandable bits.

Won't be back for a few days, have fun!

---,---'--{@

[Ossai]

Finella
You just contradicted yourself.
Any polytheism is just a human way of understanding the Source by breaking up characteristics of the Source into managable, understandable bits. Personal definition of polytheism (can be applied to other pantheons)
And
This may be why we see other saints, inclding Mary, as Godlike, because our traditional triune notion of God does not seem to contain these other virtues we feel are very important to our spirituality. I would say that each of these saints' personalities are again other "facets" of God, and that by acknowledging these saints we are recognizing yet another characteristic of God. Which states that christians break up their concept of god into multiple parts which would make christianity polytheistic.

Ossai

[Darat]

To paraphrase

"If you think you understand The Trinity, you don't understand The Trinity."

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Darat
To paraphrase

"If you think you understand The Trinity, you don't understand The Trinity."

I'm with you, Darat.

What a mindf**k of an idea. Sounds like it was borrowed from some Eastern mystic Buddist type stuff. Or the Beatles.

AS

[ceo_esq]

It might be instructive to learn whether experts in the fields of the philosophy, history or anthropology of religion regard Christianity as a polytheistic religion – and if so, why.