Milk - healthy or not?

[NeilC]

I found this in a Guardian article. Made me think about milk. I've sort of dismissed the anti-milk people for a while now as they tend to have other flakey ideas but this has me wondering. Of particular interest were the claims that calcium deficiency in diet is not what causes osteoporosis and it's supposed links to cancer.

What do you make of it?:

Content in breach of Rule 4 removed.

[Cuddles]

If you link to the article, you won't be breaching copyright.

Both sides of the argument are wrong. Milk isn't a magical cure for everything, and it is not an evil product pushed on us by the Milk Marketing Board in it's eternal quest for world domination. It is just food with some stuff in it. Our bodies need calcium, so if we get it from milk, great. If we get it from somewhere else, also great. If people don't do any exercise then it doesn't matter how much milk they drink. The entire argument is just pure nonsense, like saying that apples aren't good for you because if you stop breathing you die, no matter how many apples you eat.

[NeilC]

Hmm I think it's a little more specific than that.

Is that all you got from the article? That milk is source of calcium?

[skullerello]

Milk is intended for baby cows, not adult humans. Personally, I can't stomach the stuff, and just the thought of it makes me want to retch. It's bad, bad, bad stuff I tell ya'; cow poison!

[fls]

I found this in a Guardian article. Made me think about milk. I've sort of dismissed the anti-milk people for a while now as they tend to have other flakey ideas but this has me wondering. Of particular interest were the claims that calcium deficiency in diet is not what causes osteoporosis and it's supposed links to cancer.

What do you make of it?:

I'm not going to go through the whole article, but I'll start with some of the claims.

It starts in infancy. Frank Oski, former paediatrics director at Johns Hopkins school of medicine, estimated in his book Don't Drink Your Milk! that half of all iron deficiency in US infants results from cows' milk-induced intestinal bleeding - a staggering amount, since more than 15% of American under-twos suffer from iron-deficiency anaemia.

The prevalence of iron-deficiency anemia in the under 2 age group is incorrect. For example, the NHANES III found the prevalence in this age group to be 3%. Also, while there is a small increase in intestinal blood loss in infants fed cows' milk, most iron-deficiency anemia is from inadequate iron supplementation, as iron-deficiency anemia is also present in infants that are fed formula without iron or breastfed without iron supplementation.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/277/12/973?ijkey=658b7224cd1f47b79fe6130de077e809fcd2a816&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

The dairy industry acknowledges (as Hippocrates did) that some people are allergic to milk - though this makes it sound as if the problem lies in the individual's aberrant constitution, rather than in the beverage itself. Yet, when you look at it more closely, the extent of lactose intolerance is extraordinary.

Lactose intolerance is not an allergy. Milk allergy and lactose intolerance are two different problems.

According to various studies, there's a whole catalogue of other illnesses that can be attributed to cows' milk, among them diabetes. A 1992 report in the New England Journal of Medicine corroborated a long-standing theory that proteins in cows' milk can damage the production of insulin in those with a genetic predisposition to diabetes. The dairy industry dismisses this as "just a theory" - along with "myth" and "controversial", a term it applies to almost all studies critical of milk.

The 1992 report found that there were higher levels of anti-BSA (bovine serum albumin) in children with Type 1 diabetes compared to controls. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/327/5/302?query=nextarrow

It would be an error to say that this demonstrated causation.

The anti-milk lobby also claims that consumption of dairy products can aggravate rheumatoid arthritis and has been implicated in colic, acne, heart disease, asthma, lymphoma, ovarian cancer and multiple sclerosis. Major studies suggesting a link between milk and prostate cancer have been appearing since the 1970s, culminating in findings by the Harvard School of Public Health in 2000 that men who consumed two and a half servings of dairy products a day had a third greater risk of getting prostate cancer than those who ate less than half a serving a day. In the same year, T Colin Campbell, the Jacob Gould Schurman Professor of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, said that "cows' milk protein may be the single most significant chemical carcinogen to which humans are exposed".

Apparently it cannot be said often enough - "Correlation does not equal causation". None of these claims satisfy the standards used for determing causation. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/hill

The associations are relatively weak which makes confounding likely.

To be honest, if I find egregious errors within the first few paragraphs and obvious bias in the writing, I don't bother with the rest of the article. You are not going to find a balanced and representative survey of the available information, which makes it a waste of time.

Linda

[Skeptical Greg]

Milk is intended for baby cows, not adult humans. Personally, I can't stomach the stuff, and just the thought of it makes me want to retch. It's bad, bad, bad stuff I tell ya'; cow poison!

What you said ..

Milk is the perfect food ... For the infants of the mother producing it..

In the case of cow's milk, it is targeted at an infant who is supposed to be growing a couple of pounds a day ...


Yeah, we can use the calcium, but where do you think the calcium in the milk came from ?

[fls]

What you said ..

Milk is the perfect food ... For the infants of the mother producing it..

In the case of cow's milk, it is targeted at an infant who is supposed to be growing a couple of pounds a day ...


Yeah, we can use the calcium, but where do you think the calcium in the milk came from ?

This is kind of a silly argument. Nothing that we eat is produced for the purpose of human consumption. Meat is for animal locomotion, eggs are for nourishment of embryos, roots are for the sustenance of the plant, seeds are for the propagation of plants, etc.

Linda

[Morrigan]

To be honest, even if it's true, it probably won't stop me from drinking all the milk I drink, especially not with chocolate chip cookies. I've been drinking it reguilarly for way too long to stop now, and besides, what ARE you going to drink with those delicious chocolate chip cookies? ;)

Seriously, I'm probably screwed if there is indeed a link between milk and ovarian cancer, as my mother died of ovarian cancer (she didn't drink that much milk, but they say family antecedents are a high indicator). But screw it, we're all going to die of something, and in nutrition it seems the data always changes anyway. Might as well eat what you want, with moderation of course (to avoid at least nasty short term effects) but without harsh limits that prevent one from enjoying a good meal.

[Chris Haynes]

...The prevalence of iron-deficiency anemia in the under 2 age group is incorrect. For example, the NHANES III found the prevalence in this age group to be 3%. Also, while there is a small increase in intestinal blood loss in infants fed cows' milk, most iron-deficiency anemia is from inadequate iron supplementation, as iron-deficiency anemia is also present in infants that are fed formula without iron or breastfed without iron supplementation.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/277/12/973?ijkey=658b7224cd1f47b79fe6130de077e809fcd2a816&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha....

As a mother who breastfed all of my children at least a year each (one self-weaned at one year, the other two went to 2 years old... both of whom refused to have anything to do with a bottle)... I had to supplement their iron intake with something like this:
http://www.meadjohnson.com/products/cons-infant/p1539-09.html ... At least until they graduated up to baby cereal which often has iron in it (often made with breastmilk).

One child refused anything but breastmilk until he was 6 months old, so he was on the drops the longest.

There are entire cultures who depend on milk from various animals. They seem to do okay (India, Tibet, etc)... Then there are other cultures who do well without milk from certain mammals (I'm thinking of Chinese, where a good source of calcium is creating soup broth by boiling bones).

I usually find these pro-milk versus anti-milk articles often very silly (especially when they screw up the pediatric iron stuff).

[CFLarsen]

Can we see the evidence?

I'm not talking about talking about evidence. I'm talking about seeing actual evidence.

Catch m'drift?

Don't make me ask again. Believers have been known to crack, when that happens....

[ynot]

This is kind of a silly argument. Nothing that we eat is produced for the purpose of human consumption. Meat is for animal locomotion, eggs are for nourishment of embryos, roots are for the sustenance of the plant, seeds are for the propagation of plants, etc.

Linda
I blame God! Why is it that he/she/it designed us to live from killing and eating other things? Why can't we just absorb energy directly from the sun? :D

[fls]

I blame God! Why is it that he/she/it designed us to live from killing and eating other things? Why can't we just absorb energy directly from the sun? :D

That's a good question. Why don't we see complex animals that photosynthesize?

Linda

[ynot]

That's a good question. Why don't we see complex animals that photosynthesize?

Linda
Imagine the toilet paper it would save!

[WildCat]

Milk is intended for baby cows, not adult humans. Personally, I can't stomach the stuff, and just the thought of it makes me want to retch. It's bad, bad, bad stuff I tell ya'; cow poison!
I couldn't agree more... vile, disgusting stuff. When I was little and my mom made me drink the stuff I would gag on it and nearly vomit. It's fine for cooking, but that's about it for me. And don't ask me to smell it to see if it's still good or not, it all smells rancid to me. Blech...

[fls]

Imagine the toilet paper it would save!

But I'd probably get behind in my reading.

Linda

[Jorghnassen]

I couldn't agree more... vile, disgusting stuff. When I was little and my mom made me drink the stuff I would gag on it and nearly vomit. It's fine for cooking, but that's about it for me. And don't ask me to smell it to see if it's still good or not, it all smells rancid to me. Blech...

Then what do you drink to help all that chocolate fondue go down so you can have more?

[jimlintott]

On a daily basis I drink water, coffee (black, no sugar) and milk in that order. I don't drink soda pop but prefer beer. I don't drink much fruit juice. I do love my milk though. Whole milk only. If I want water I drink water.

Now the wierd part. If I don't drink any milk or have any dairy for about five days I start to feel off. Not really ill but just not right. About a half litre of milk or even some yoghurt and I feel better. Maybe it's some sort of placebo effect. Does it make any sense for this to happen?

[Dark Jaguar]

Only if there's something in the milk you aren't getting any other way. Otherwise, you may be right it's just in your head.

Me? I'm a milk addict, and I think that might be literally true at this point.

[casebro]

Can we see the evidence?

I'm not talking about talking about evidence. I'm talking about seeing actual evidence.

Catch m'drift?

Don't make me ask again. Believers have been known to crack, when that happens....

CF, you are talking about the nursing, aren't you?

[snooziums]

I thought it is better for your health than soda is. And I thought that milk in coffee is better than artificial creamer.

Maybe I should give up liquids and coffee (which is one), since there is nothing left, except for juice.

[CFLarsen]

CF, you are talking about the nursing, aren't you?

No, the OP.

[NeilC]

I wasn't presenting hard evidence. I wasn't even presenting an argument but putting forward a topic for discussion.

[NeilC]

Not wishing to set myself up as the thread anti-milk person but a search does turn up quite a few studies that detract from the "perfect food" image.

E.g.: http://www.pcrm.org/news/archive050623.html

This ties in with what I know from weight-training. Milk is becoming popular (again) as a post weights drink due to it supposedly causing a rapid rise insulin - something bodybuilders want post-workout to maximise hypertrophy, as well as all the protein it contains.

And: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/1/118

Not milk specific but relevant since milk is a common source of animal protein and is touted as a good food to avoid osteoporosis.

[El Greco]

I stopped reading right here:

The most important culprit is almost certainly the overconsumption of protein. High-protein foods such as meat, eggs and dairy make excessive demands on the kidneys, which in turn leach calcium from the body. One solution, then, isn't to increase our calcium intake, but to reduce our consumption of protein, so our bones don't have to surrender so much calcium. Astonishingly, according to this newer, more critical view, dairy products almost certainly help to cause, rather than prevent, osteoporosis.

Almost certainly ? According to what studies ? For example here is one that says higher protein is beneficial (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15941897&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum). And out of all foods is milk the one that people get most of their protein from ? This is stupid.

Does the article cite the studies and reviews it is based on ? As a general rule I consider all newspaper articles that refer to studies without citing them to be crap.

[Cuddles]

Then what do you drink to help all that chocolate fondue go down so you can have more?

Beer.

[luchog]

Milk is intended for baby cows, not adult humans. Personally, I can't stomach the stuff, and just the thought of it makes me want to retch. It's bad, bad, bad stuff I tell ya'; cow poison!
Cows are evil. Sure, they look all placid and defenseless, but that's just their mind-control making us think that. They're trying to take over the world, and milk is just one of their many insidious plots.

Personally, I tend to prefer goat's milk for most things, but it's expensive and hard to find. (It's actually healthier than cow's milk.) The taste takes a little getting used to for those used to cow's milk, but I find it's actually preferable. It's a bit lower in milkfat, so it won't work as well for certain types of cooking.
Maybe I should give up liquids and coffee (which is one), since there is nothing left, except for juice.
You know, there have been a lot of studies recently demonstrating beer to be a supremely healthful and beneficial beverage, in moderation. As long as it's good beer, and not mass-produced American swill, that is. (Or some of that cheap low-end Australian, German, or British swill, either. Like Budweiser, beers like Heiniken, Stella and Fosters have been demonstrated to make you less intelligent, as hundreds of thousands of chavs have amply demonstrated.)

[bluess]

Then what do you drink to help all that chocolate fondue go down so you can have more?

Red wine.

[Jorghnassen]

Red wine.

You either don't eat chocolate fondue in normal quantities or are an alcoholic...

[bluess]

You either don't eat chocolate fondue in normal quantities or are an alcoholic...

Normal quantities? Define, please.

Chocolate and red wine are fabulous together. Red wine (try a cabarnet) is wonderful in chocolate fondue.

Now, if I were an alcoholic, I would forego the fondue.

Of course, if I were a choco-alcoholic, I would pour the cabernet into the chocolate fondue, and dip chocolate-covered marshmallows in the fondue while drinking champagne.

[alfaniner]

And then there's this

Chocolate beer (http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/s19303.html)

Personally, I always kinda liked beer and brownies. No, not that kind.

[Jorghnassen]

Normal quantities? Define, please.

Chocolate and red wine are fabulous together. Red wine (try a cabarnet) is wonderful in chocolate fondue.

I'm not saying chocolate and wine don't go together. But I need large quantities of milk to help the ingestion of melted chocolate (on fruits/cake). If I were to drink as much wine, I'd get drunk and broke in no time...

[Chris Haynes]

I'm ... But I need large quantities of milk to help the ingestion of melted chocolate (on fruits/cake). ......

While red wine and chocolate are really good combination... So is coffee and chocolate fondue. Coffee is also good with chocolate cake.

But chocolate in any form will tend to make you thirsty... So to go with the red wine at the chocolate fondue, have a glass of ice water (milk tends to clash with the wine).

Though the best beverage with warm chocolate chip cookies out of the oven is a tall glass of ice cold milk.

[Godmode]

My mother used to force us to drink a glass of milk with each meal. I always hated it, to this day I can't drink milk. However, I love cheese, ice-cream, and other dairy foods. I take any warnings or claims for food products lightly. I mean damn, everything can kill or cure you these days. I think being sensible is the best solution, don't overindulge, but don't deprive yourself either.

[Cuddles]

Personally, I tend to prefer goat's milk for most things, but it's expensive and hard to find. (It's actually healthier than cow's milk.) The taste takes a little getting used to for those used to cow's milk, but I find it's actually preferable. It's a bit lower in milkfat, so it won't work as well for certain types of cooking.

We used to have goats' milk, mainly because we used to have goats. The milk isn't too different from semi-skimmed cows milk, and within a week of swtiching between them (in either direction) you'll be used to it. On other other hand, goats cheese is just plain nasty.

Of course, if I were a choco-alcoholic, I would pour the cabernet into the chocolate fondue, and dip chocolate-covered marshmallows in the fondue while drinking champagne.

And this is why the Baileys fondue was invented. Chocolate and Baileys with marshmallows dipped in it. Does life get any better?

[luchog]

Normal quantities? Define, please.

Chocolate and red wine are fabulous together. Red wine (try a cabarnet) is wonderful in chocolate fondue.

Cabernet? No. Not for a sweet dish like a fondue. Maybe with a high-liquor bitter chocolate. With sweeter chocolate dishes, i'd recommend a fine port.

[bluess]

And this is why the Baileys fondue was invented. Chocolate and Baileys with marshmallows dipped in it. Does life get any better?

Only if there is a massage somewhere in the picture.

Cabernet? No. Not for a sweet dish like a fondue. Maybe with a high-liquor bitter chocolate. With sweeter chocolate dishes, i'd recommend a fine port.

Of course, dark chocolate.


See, this is what we need to show the world that skeptics aren't all grumpy and snarly.

And now I will have to go get the various makings and do a taste test. :D

[Dazed]

Holy ****? Milk causes intestinal bleeding?

[Chris Haynes]

Cabernet? No. Not for a sweet dish like a fondue. Maybe with a high-liquor bitter chocolate. With sweeter chocolate dishes, i'd recommend a fine port.

Chocolate fondue is not necesarily sweet. Chocolate fondue is any good chocolate (bitter is really good) mixed with some warmed cream. What wine you serve might also be determined by what you are dipping into the fondue. I don't think I'd like a port with pears in bitter chocolate... I might like a merlot, though.

[Thinktoomuch]

Cabernet and merlot - too light.
Port - too heavy.
A nice shiraz - just right.
And don't dare drink milk. We need it to make fine cheeses to go with the cabernet and the merlot!

[logical muse]

On other other hand, goats cheese is just plain nasty.


You've never had a decent fetta then, have you? It's yummy!

Then again, over on that other thread somewhere, I talk about how much I like vegemite...

[bluess]

You've never had a decent fetta then, have you? It's yummy!

Then again, over on that other thread somewhere, I talk about how much I like vegemite...

Your tastebuds are certainly suspect.

Especially if you would have a vegemite sandwich with a nice cabernet on the side.:D

[Chris Haynes]

Cabernet and merlot - too light.
Port - too heavy.
A nice shiraz - just right.
And don't dare drink milk. We need it to make fine cheeses to go with the cabernet and the merlot!

Wow!!! As I went through the day, I did ponder over my post... and I also decided a shiraz would be better.

[drkitten]

A nice shiraz

Isn't that one of those phrases like "a circular triangle" or "jumbo shrimp"?

[bluess]

Isn't that one of those phrases like "a circular triangle" or "jumbo shrimp"?

Hey, the grocery store is having a sale on extra-colossal shrimp this week.

I can see them now, with their many legs astride the Chesapeake bay.

[luchog]

We used to have goats' milk, mainly because we used to have goats. The milk isn't too different from semi-skimmed cows milk, and within a week of swtiching between them (in either direction) you'll be used to it. On other other hand, goats cheese is just plain nasty.

Take that back you nekulturny heathen. Goat cheeses are the foods of the gods. Nothing better with fruit than a tangy mild chevre. A well-aged wine-washed hard goat cheese is a wonderful thing with grilled veggies and a pale ale. And there is nothing like breaking through the thick white rind on a well-aged montrachet to that nutty sharpness underneath, with a rustic french bread, some herbed oil, and a good red wine.

[bluess]

Take that back you nekulturny heathen. Goat cheeses are the foods of the gods. Nothing better with fruit than a tangy mild chevre. A well-aged wine-washed hard goat cheese is a wonderful thing with grilled veggies and a pale ale. And there is nothing like breaking through the thick white rind on a well-aged montrachet to that nutty sharpness underneath, with a rustic french bread, some herbed oil, and a good red wine.


Would you STOP making me hungry!

[luchog]

Chocolate fondue is not necesarily sweet. Chocolate fondue is any good chocolate (bitter is really good) mixed with some warmed cream.

Not all port is heavily sweetened, that's typical mainly of the cheaper "supermarket" stuff. A good port, though it is a sweeter type of wine, is better balanced between the tannins and the sugar; and the emphasis is on the fruit, and in some cases chocolate or tobacco notes.

And the sweetness of the cream moderates the bitterness of high-liquor (70%+) chocolate too much to allow it to pair well with a dry wine. IMO of course. :) I'm not particularly fond of highly tannic wines, in any case.

What wine you serve might also be determined by what you are dipping into the fondue. I don't think I'd like a port with pears in bitter chocolate... I might like a merlot, though.
Merlot is much too soft for me. If I'm not drinking port, I'd much rather have a good Australian shiraz (most other shirazes/syrahs tend to be too tannic and woody), or a Georgian saperavi (Kindzmarauli is my current favorite).
Cabernet and merlot - too light.
Port - too heavy.
A nice shiraz - just right.
And don't dare drink milk. We need it to make fine cheeses to go with the cabernet and the merlot!
If you find port too heavy, you've been drinking the wrong ones. Particularly if you've been drinking the cheap stuff. There's also a huge difference between Ruby and Tawny ports as well, the former tending to be sweeter and more fruity, the latter drier and more oaky/tannic. Different blends, ages, years, and so on will make a huge difference as well.

[Thinktoomuch]

.....
Merlot is much too soft for me. If I'm not drinking port, I'd much rather have a good Australian shiraz (most other shirazes/syrahs tend to be too tannic and woody),
......

If you find port too heavy, you've been drinking the wrong ones. Particularly if you've been drinking the cheap stuff. There's also a huge difference between Ruby and Tawny ports as well, the former tending to be sweeter and more fruity, the latter drier and more oaky/tannic. Different blends, ages, years, and so on will make a huge difference as well.

Geez, I thougth I was only making a humorous quip, next time I'll make sure to add a smilie for those who need a picture. :) We are mostly agreed but obviously the infinite variety of wines and individual tastes makes this discussion futile. Light and heavy are just very generic words good for a quip, not for a treatise on oenology. Have you tried Amarone, a blend of cabernet and merlot? I do not drink cheap port, maybe I am just not fond of ports. I have tolerated some tawny around $30 a bottle, but am not tempted to spend more in the odd chance that I might find some I really like.

Drkitten, as you seem to think that "nice shiraz" is an oximoron, I formally invite you to a study tour of the Barossa Valley! :)
Chhers!

[Chris Haynes]

Actually, I am just kind of amused that a thread about milk turned into one about wine!

[Thinktoomuch]

Actually, I am just kind of amused that a thread about milk turned into one about wine!

A miracle! A miracle! Milk turned into wine! I believe!

[gdtbiker]

An earlier post pointed out that lactose intolerance is different from having an allergy - it bears repeating. I have had a severe lactose intolerance from the time I was 16. At that time, gastroenterology hadn't progressed enough to diagnose my problems as anything other than an allergy. It was only a few years later when medicine finally started recognizing lactose intolerance for what it was.

My understanding has been that before the domestication of cattle, it wasn't "natural" to consume milk beyond the breast feeding stage of infants. And thus the human body "naturally" didn't expect to have to deal with lactose anymore in the form of milk. So the production of lactase in the small intestine (to digest the stuff) naturally dropped or atrophied normally, there being no further need to digest lactose. I don't seem to fit demographics mentioned in the OP article as I am caucasion. Curiously, I know several other folks that also have lactose intolerance and they are all caucasion too.

In any case, I used to shudder from all those TV commercials that claimed that "Milk is a natural!" For babies, yes. For adults, No! But if you can drink milk with no problems then more power to you. But if you can't, then you have to consider that it's just biologically natural. I'm not saying that being able to handle milk isn't natural, just that it should be no biological surprise that a lot of people can't tolerate the stuff.

[HawkeyeMD]

That's a good question. Why don't we see complex animals that photosynthesize?

Linda

Because you can't get enough energy that way for complex animals to live. Things that need to move around need a lot more ATP than things that just sit there or float there and absorb. (I edited this to add that, as another interesting fact, we humans do use sunlight to make vitamin D, which is important enough that where I study we actually have a population of children that have a very high incidence of rickets--they are usually dark-skinned children from families that eat a vegetarian diet for religious reasons, and it happens in the winter months when they are not outside/bundled up so much that sunlight doesn't reach their skin.)

The silliest thing about this milk/anti-milk argument, it seems to me, is the polarization on both sides. Milk isn't entirely evil or ambrosia. If you're not allergic or lactose-intolerant and you like it, it's fine.

People who don't like good port or feta cheese, on the other hand, are clearly insane. ;)

[luchog]

Geez, I thougth I was only making a humorous quip, next time I'll make sure to add a smilie for those who need a picture. :)

Some of us happen to take our ports very seriously, and don't find them a suitable subject for frivolous levity. :(

We are mostly agreed but obviously the infinite variety of wines and individual tastes makes this discussion futile. Light and heavy are just very generic words good for a quip, not for a treatise on oenology. Have you tried Amarone, a blend of cabernet and merlot? I do not drink cheap port, maybe I am just not fond of ports. I have tolerated some tawny around $30 a bottle, but am not tempted to spend more in the odd chance that I might find some I really like.

Region, blend, etc. are important too. I've found a few truly amazing ports in the $15-20 range, and some absolute crap in the $20-30 range.

I've tried the cab/merlot blends, but they all seem to incorporate the worst of both worlds. Not a particularly big fan of either wine, really. As far as dry reds go, I tend to prefer Pinot Noir; with the occasional Malbec or Syrah (some nice versions of the latter 2 coming out of Chile). Mostly I prefer the sweeter reds, like the Georgian saperavi.

Drkitten, as you seem to think that "nice shiraz" is an oximoron, I formally invite you to a study tour of the Barossa Valley! :)
Chhers!

The Aussie shirazes are probably the best in the world. And there are some very interesting (and inexpensive) ports based on the shiraz grape coming out of Australia (Barossa and McLaren valleys).

[Chris Haynes]

...In any case, I used to shudder from all those TV commercials that claimed that "Milk is a natural!" For babies, yes. For adults, No! But if you can drink milk with no problems then more power to you. But if you can't, then you have to consider that it's just biologically natural. I'm not saying that being able to handle milk isn't natural, just that it should be no biological surprise that a lot of people can't tolerate the stuff.

My sister was born lactose intolerant (she was a premie). Funny... other people drinking milk does not bother her, and neither do the commercials. She seems to understand what affects her does not necesarily bother other people. The funny thing is that she still eats cheese while I am avoiding the stuff (because of my high cholesterol).

There are also lots of people who cannot tolerate all sorts of other foods. Along with real allergies for peanuts, tree nuts, soy, eggs, shellfish and others... there are whole swaths of people who cannot tolerate alcohol (very common with Asians)... PLUS there are those who are gluten intolerate --- yet we do not see a campaign to rid the world of wheat, nor any of the other things.

For some reason cow milk is what is being mostly demonized. Often with false information being used as noted in the OP. I once had one guy tell me my son had his seizures because he drank milk. When I explained that the child was 2 day old infant and had only had breast milk... he then try to tell me it was because I drank milk.

Plus the "it is not natural" arguement falls flat when compared to food often eaten by the "No milk" contingent. For instance tofu does come from the soy bean without lots of preparation (including fermentation), and for that matter soy milk is not exactly the natural state of the soy bean (plus it is one of the top dozen food allergies).

Another staple that is required in many areas is cassava... but that can't be eaten until the poison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassava#Processing) is removed!

Another example is blue corn... a staple of the American Southwest. The protein in it is not released until it is boiled in lime (http://cahe.nmsu.edu/news/1999/110299_BLUECORN.html).

Now back to the real subject: wine

luchog, while I like good strong reds like shiraz and zinfandel (the latter is getting harder to find a good one), I also like merlots and cabernets. But for different reasons. Also the quality really depends on where it is grown, the year and the winemaker. We did once have a Beringer Cabernet from their Knight's Valley vineyard that was almost as potent as an Australian shiraz (Knight's Valley is full of obsidian, so it really concentrates to flavor of the grapes).

Still, I am not too fond of port. I have a friend who loves port and we have tried some of her favorites. I do have some Whidbey's Port on hand to make the sauce for a pork roast (it is covered in onions, thyme and sage... some stock in added with port in the last hour of roasting... that is strained and reduced down for the sauce... I like it served with a Pinot Noir).

[Thinktoomuch]

Some of us happen to take our ports very seriously, and don't find them a suitable subject for frivolous levity. :(


Let's get deadly serious, then:eye-poppi . My GGT is raised, HDL and DDL out of whack, and I get a gout attack just by looking at a bowl of salted anchovies [well, by scoffing it and washing it off with a couple of glasses of cabernet, actually... Wife's note]

As a consequence, of late I approach red wine like a porcupine mates: veeery carefully. My philosophy is that I will not be able to drink much in the remainder of my life, therefore if I drink a bottle of plonk means that I am smashing against the wall the good bottle I could have instead.

And there is method in my madness: I believe that if a red wine is really good, no producers in their right mind would just kill it with ethanol to make port. However, Doctor, if you can prescribe a Barossa port that will cure my madness I am happy to try it.


I've tried the cab/merlot blends, but they all seem to incorporate the worst of both worlds.

Yes, this is probably true for most of them, that is why I suggested the exception of Amarone. A good one is rather rare and expensive, though.

[Chris Haynes]

Hmmmm... I thought a little bit of wine was good for you, and that included increasing HDL:
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4422 (but only a little bit, and it is not the recommended method)

[luchog]

Let's get deadly serious, then:eye-poppi . My GGT is raised, HDL and DDL out of whack, and I get a gout attack just by looking at a bowl of salted anchovies [well, by scoffing it and washing it off with a couple of glasses of cabernet, actually... Wife's note]

Heh. Well, moderate amounts of alcohol are supposed to be good for the cholesterol levels and balances; though probably not as good for the gout. (Can't say the same for the anchovies, unfortunately, no matter how much I love them.)

And there is method in my madness: I believe that if a red wine is really good, no producers in their right mind would just kill it with ethanol to make port. However, Doctor, if you can prescribe a Barossa port that will cure my madness I am happy to try it.

But there's a method to the madness in port as well. The ethanol doesn't kill it (and it's not like it's industrial ethanol, it's made from the same wines, after all), but preserves an earlier stage of development, a rich fruitiness that no other red wines have.

I don't know any of the Barossa ports, unfortunately. Most of the ones I do know are Portugese (the Dows vintage ports are quite good, and I particularly like their '85 Qinto do Bomfim, though good luck finding it). The only Australian I am familiar with is the d'Arenberg, which is a McLaren valley winery. The 2000 is good.

Yes, this is probably true for most of them, that is why I suggested the exception of Amarone. A good one is rather rare and expensive, though.
They usually are.

[logical muse]

Your tastebuds are certainly suspect.

Especially if you would have a vegemite sandwich with a nice cabernet on the side.:D

The wine snobs will uncork a bottle of derision over this, but merlot goes well with vegemite.

[NeilC]

Wine snobbery is such that they will claim that it only goes with certain foods (normally french cheeses etc) whatever your own tastebuds tell you.

Wine connoisseurship is full of balony. I'm dubious as to all red wines having red berry flavours and whites having light coloured tropical fruit flavours. I usually stop listening when I hear the descriptions containing the words "cigar box" approaching.

One thing that annoys me is people who won't even sip a sweeter wine claiming it's far too sweet and quite horrible. And then they go on to down a glass of Coke.

Seems to me people are schooled into what is right or wrong rather than what simply tastes good.

[Cuddles]

Take that back you nekulturny heathen.

I'm not sure what that means, but that's a great word that I'm definately going to have to remember. :)

People who don't like good port or feta cheese, on the other hand, are clearly insane. ;)

Fortunately I don't like either, so being a double negative that makes me entirely sane.

[luchog]

I'm not sure what that means, but that's a great word that I'm definately going to have to remember. :)

It's Russian. The literal translation is "uncultured", but it's a far more derogatory term in Russian than it is in English.

[patrick767]

And then there's this

Chocolate beer


Ye gads, man! :eek: If you're going to talk about chocolate beer, at least don't link to a product from the defilers of beer at Miller.

Try a Young's Double Chocolate Stout, on tap if you can find it somewhere, or in the handy 16 oz widget can. mmm.... beer.