Still more remains found at Ground Zero

[CptColumbo]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/workers-uncover-more-human-remains-at/20061021220909990002?ncid=NWS00010000000001

NEW YORK (Oct. 23) -- Searchers who have yet to unearth more than half the underground sites apparently overlooked during the initial excavation of ground zero have uncovered more than 100 pieces of human remains believed to belong to Sept. 11 victims.

The medical examiner's office said 18 new pieces were found Sunday, adding to a yield ranging from tiny fragments to recognizable bones from skulls, torsos, feet and hands --some as large as whole arm and leg bones.

Deputy Mayor Ed Skyler, who is overseeing the recovery effort, said officials had identified additional manholes and utility cavities at the World Trade Center site that need to be examined.

The team of searchers expects to burrow into at least 12 subterranean areas in coming days. About five have been excavated.

"They will go through every grain, every piece of material carefully, and sift through it," Skyler said.

The underground pockets are located along the western edge of the 16-acre lower Manhattan site, underneath a service road built in March of 2002 to free up traffic on a major thruway that had been closed since the attacks.

However, some below-ground cavities that had been used for utility and infrastructure purposes were paved over without being searched for remains. Days ago, crews doing routine work at the site opened a manhole and discovered human bones, setting off an expedition for other remains.

Skyler said the city will focus on finding remains before it reviews how the initial search was handled. He said construction at ground zero did not need to be halted to accommodate the search, but that officials would address the need if it arises.

Some Sept. 11 families, however, called for the rebuilding to stop until the recovery is finished.

"Their actions say remains are not a priority, they're secondary to the rebuilding," said Charles Wolf, who lost his wife and has never received any of her identified remains. "This is bringing up all the gnawing, gut-wrenching stuff inside us again."

The latest remains found are not the first to turn up unexpectedly since the cleanup officially concluded in 2002. Hundreds of bone fragments recently were found on the roof of a nearby skyscraper that was badly damaged in the attack and had been condemned.

The active search for the dead ended after a massive cleanup of 1.5 million tons of debris. About 20,000 pieces of human remains were found, but the DNA in thousands of those pieces was too damaged by heat, humidity and time to yield matches in the many tests forensic scientists have tried over the years.

More than 40 percent of the 2,749 Sept. 11 victims in New York have never been identified.


10/23/06 03:19 EDT

Another example of how widespread the damage is.

I don't envy the coroners. Hopefully this will bring closure to some of the families.

[firecoins]

One of the things I have noticed is that the biggest advocates of the CT theories and leaders of the 9/11 truth movement had no connection to NYC prior to 9/11. They don't seem to have any concept of what it would take to fill these skyscrapers with explosives or what a collpase of the twin towers would have on neighboring buidings like WTC #7.

[Garb]

One of the things I have noticed is that the biggest advocates of the CT theories and leaders of the 9/11 truth movement had no connection to NYC prior to 9/11. They don't seem to have any concept of what it would take to fill these skyscrapers with explosives or what a collpase of the twin towers would have on neighboring buidings like WTC #7.

Do they even have much concept to begin with?

Except for making big protests.

[Bell]

I wonder how many of them actually saw, even stood atop the WTC? I have, 3 months before the attacks. Those buildings were freaking big!

[gumboot]

I wonder how many of them actually saw, even stood atop the WTC? I have, 3 months before the attacks. Those buildings were freaking big!


I got an appreciation for the scale when I compared New York to my own home city of Auckland. Auckland isn't a big city as far as the CBD goes, but it has a decent little collection of skyscrapers. Or so I thought.

The tallest skyscraper in Auckland (and New Zealand) is only 170m high. The towers are 2 1/2 times as tall. Even WTC7 would tower over the Auckland Skyline, and WTC7 looks tiny beside the towers.

-Gumboot

[Mr. Skinny]

I got an appreciation for the scale when I compared New York to my own home city of Auckland. Auckland isn't a big city as far as the CBD goes, but it has a decent little collection of skyscrapers. Or so I thought.

The tallest skyscraper in Auckland (and New Zealand) is only 170m high. The towers are 2 1/2 times as tall. Even WTC7 would tower over the Auckland Skyline, and WTC7 looks tiny beside the towers.

-Gumboot
Thanks for the perspective, Gumboot. I think the tallest building in Dayton is only about 25 stories tall. And I agree with firecoins in post #2.

I haven't been to NYC since about 1971, and I only remember the Empire State Building as a glimpse through the window of a Ford van while I was sorta drunk on wine.

I'm sure the WTC must have been far more impressive than I can even imagine. In addition, I didn't know anyone that died there, so no personal tragedies involved.

I was only affected indirectly, and I do feel that those that were directly affected certainly have the right to be a bit more emotional about the issue.

[Bell]

The Twin Towers where the first buildings I recognized when flying in to NY. They where the last building I recognized when flying out of NY. You could see them almost from everywhere in NY/Manhattan.

I thought quite a lot about the '93 bombing, and how devasting that must have been if they had succeeded. And how that would have been seen from many miles away. I even talked to a firefighter about it.

I'm glad my father and I went to NY that summer, and have seen the towers, and stood atop of it.

I think that's also the reason that I take 9/11 so personally. A little bit of me, of my experience, has been destroyded.

[Zep]

I saw the WTC towers from the street level when we were in NY in '86 - they looked SO freaking huge! So in 2001, I was not the least surprised at the amount of energy generated when they fell.

Chances are they will be finding more remains elsewhere as time passes. I doubt they could have been more thorough without digging up all of lower Manhattan. Absolutely remarkable situation, though. I hope the families aren't too upset by it.

[SezMe]

What I don't understand is the reaction (or, maybe more precisely, the strength of the reaction) of the immediate families. So part of a bone has been found. So what?

[W6102LA]

How did they work out how many people died in the WTC collapses, that figure of nearly 3,000 ?

ETA: I watched a documentary called "8/11 Liars" which covered some of the false claims by people that they had relatives (wives, husbands etc ) killed in the collapses, it also covered some of the process of searching for remains and identifing them.

[MRC_Hans]

How did they work out how many people died in the WTC collapses, that figure of nearly 3,000 ?

ETA: I watched a documentary called "8/11 Liars" which covered some of the false claims by people that they had relatives (wives, husbands etc ) killed in the collapses, it also covered some of the process of searching for remains and identifing them.2,749

I think the figure, despite its apparant precision, must be taken as +- something. Missing people kept turning up for quite some time after the attack. There were some, who should have been in the buildings, but were not, and while most turned up later, one or two might, for whatever reason, have taken the opportunity to vanish. Others might have had no business in the towers, but were there, and are now on the general missing persons list.

In a situation like this, where all bodies cannot be recovered, and where not all of those recovered can be identified, we will never know the exact number.

Hans

[W6102LA]

2,749

In a situation like this, where all bodies cannot be recovered, and where not all of those recovered can be identified, we will never know the exact number.

Hans

I would imagine that the discovery of these remains 5 years later would have quite an effect on relatives/families etc that have persons missing that haven't been found or identified.

[The Painter]

Chances are they will be finding more remains elsewhere as time passes. I doubt they could have been more thorough without digging up all of lower Manhattan. Absolutely remarkable situation, though. I hope the families aren't too upset by it.

They will be finding remains for years to come.

So part of a bone has been found. So what?

Some families have no remains of loved ones. It makes a difference to them.

2,749

When this happened, I honestly expected the number of deaths to be 15 to 25 thousand. I was amazed at the number of people that got out.

[firecoins]

The number comes from several lists that were combined. The 1st list was those passengers and crew aboard the planes. They did not survive.

They got lists from employers, from families that were missing people, from people in the building & from the NYPD, PAPD and FDNY. They put these lists together, eliminated duplicates as there were many and crossed out thousands who were found alive but who could not contacted their family in the immediate aftermath. The came out with a list of the final number. As of 10/24/06, the list is 100% accurate.

I also expected a much higher number. But many people successfully evacuated the buildings prior to the collpase. Remember that while the second hit tower fell first, many people in it evacuated with the first plane hit. Yes the security guards told people to go back but many did not. It wasn't a jail.

[Crungy]

I also expected a much higher number.

So did I and most of my coworkers and friends. This is another fine example of our expectations not even coming close to what the facts are. Unfortunately, this hasn't prevented TruthSpanky from going on and on about his "expectations" of the WTC debris.

[gumboot]

When this happened, I honestly expected the number of deaths to be 15 to 25 thousand. I was amazed at the number of people that got out.


Reading the NIST report on building evacuation and building egress is quite sobering. They establish a number of interesting facts:

-Virtually everyone who could have evacuated the buildings did so
-The vast majority of those building occupants who died were either killed by impact or trapped above the impact point in the North Tower

But this is where you begin to appreciate how lucky we were:

-The building was well below typical occupancy because it was still early in the morning
-Had the buildings been at typical day-time occupancy evacuation would have taken 4 hours

Do the math. It's a chilling statement.

-Gumboot

[Bell]

I never got a clear answer to a question I had a while ago (not on these boards). There are still 24 people missing from the attack in NY. Why are they classified missing in stead of death? Roughly half of the victims are identified and declared death, the other half is also declared death by the coroner.

[firecoins]

I never got a clear answer to a question I had a while ago (not on these boards). There are still 24 people missing from the attack in NY. Why are they classified missing in stead of death? Roughly half of the victims are identified and declared death, the other half is also declared death by the coroner.
maybe no next of kin and no need of a death certificate? Maybe they didn't sign off the lawsuit prevention stuff. I don't know. Is there link or something? Id like to research it.

[CptColumbo]

Usually, without a body it takes seven years for a person to be declared "legally dead." Not everyone who died on 9/11 were white collar workers, and even those who were are not necessarily rich. Some of these families have been forced to make up for the loss of not just a family member, but also a household income. By finding the remains of loved ones, dependants can claim life insurance and other benefits due to them in the event of the death the family member or others.

In other words, unless there is DNA evidence that a person died on 9/11/01, they are probably still considered "legally" missing.

I am by no means a lawyer, so if I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me. Most of my knowledge on the subject comes from watching TV and Movies.

[firecoins]

Usually, without a body it takes seven years for a person to be declared "legally dead." Not everyone who died on 9/11 were white collar workers, and even those who were are not necessarily rich. Some of these families have been forced to make up for the loss of not just a family member, but also a household income. By finding the remains of loved ones, dependants can claim life insurance and other benefits due to them in the event of the death the family member or others.

In other words, unless there is DNA evidence that a person died on 9/11/01, they are probably still considered "legally" missing.

I am by no means a lawyer, so if I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me. Most of my knowledge on the subject comes from watching TV and Movies.
many people have been declared dead without DNA in this case because it was an extreme.

[Kryptos]

I never got a clear answer to a question I had a while ago (not on these boards). There are still 24 people missing from the attack in NY. Why are they classified missing in stead of death? Roughly half of the victims are identified and declared death, the other half is also declared death by the coroner.

Here's (http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VICTIM_SEARCH.asp?s=reported+missing) a list of the missing. Quite a few of them are from Mexico. Of others listed, Dinah Webster was a British citizen [1] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,553421,00.html), and others listed as from Colombia, Honduras, Congo, and other places. Only speculation, but maybe remains were never found for these people, and/or their families never came forward to provide dna samples to confirm identification. And perhaps some of these were illegal immigrants? I'm not sure all the legalities involved, but these people never officially had a death certificate issued.

[firecoins]

Here's (http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VICTIM_SEARCH.asp?s=reported+missing) a list of the missing. Quite a few of them are from Mexico. Of others listed, Dinah Webster was a British citizen [1] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,553421,00.html), and others listed as from Colombia, Honduras, Congo, and other places. Only speculation, but maybe remains were never found for these people, and/or their families never came forward to provide dna samples to confirm identification. And perhaps some of these were illegal immigrants? I'm not sure all the legalities involved, but these people never officially had a death certificate issued.
immigration status is probably the culprit.

[Brainster]

Before you think that this will bring comfort to the families, check out this post at a conservative blog (http://conprotantor.blogspot.com/2006/10/tell-maura-i-love-her_22.html). It starts out as a pretty straightforward account of what seems like a very admirable young man who died in the WTC, but wait until you read about his parents and what they've been doing since 9-11. Sad to say that this highlights that sometimes it's best to ignore the family members of the victims.

[Bell]

Here's (http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VICTIM_SEARCH.asp?s=reported+missing) a list of the missing. Quite a few of them are from Mexico. Of others listed, Dinah Webster was a British citizen [1] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,553421,00.html), and others listed as from Colombia, Honduras, Congo, and other places. Only speculation, but maybe remains were never found for these people, and/or their families never came forward to provide dna samples to confirm identification. And perhaps some of these were illegal immigrants? I'm not sure all the legalities involved, but these people never officially had a death certificate issued.

Thank you. I noted before that a lot of them had foreign nationalities or were Mexican. One of my assumptions has been:

immigration status is probably the culprit.

... but I'm not sure. It's just a little thing that made me wonder.

[firecoins]

... but I'm not sure. It's just a little thing that made me wonder.
Politicans bent normal rules in an extraordinary situation to help constituents get taxpayer money. At least 19 illegal immigrants were responsible.