Estonia will pay $20,000 to make them a baby.

[steverino]

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/article_print/SB116128123297297938-lMyQjAxMDE2NjIxMDIyODAxWj.html

How much would YOUR country have to pay YOU to make a baby?

[marksman]

It already does, in the form of tax deductions for my dependents.

[steverino]

Good point. Maybe Estonia does both, but I don't know. Still, in terms of their economy, sounds like two-three years of their annual income.

[This Guy]

Wonder if I move there, if they would pay me to try to father a child?

OK, so I'm single, and I've had a vasectomy, but I'll try VERY hard!

[Rob Lister]

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/article_print/SB116128123297297938-lMyQjAxMDE2NjIxMDIyODAxWj.html

How much would YOUR country have to pay YOU to make a baby?

link on the country...

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/en.html

[marksman]

Good point. Maybe Estonia does both, but I don't know. Still, in terms of their economy, sounds like two-three years of their annual income.

A well-dressed man walks up to a woman.
"Would you sleep with me for ten million dollars?"
The woman looks the man over, thinks about it and says, "I suppose so."
"Would you sleep with me for ten bucks?"
"You said ten million. What kind of woman do you think I am?"
"We've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price."

Americans and Estonians aren't all that different. We're just haggling over prices. :)

[Rob Lister]

Interesting.

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/destinations/europe/estonia/

gives you

"connection failure"

No wonder.

[pipelineaudio]

My country pays illegal mexican invaders quite handsomely to drop their babies on the USA side of the fence. Citizenship, welfare, free health care, education, etc etc etc

[slingblade]

My country pays illegal mexican invaders quite handsomely to drop their babies on the USA side of the fence. Citizenship, welfare, free health care, education, etc etc etc

Well, honey, if the baby's a citizen as you say, he's getting what the rest of us get, and legally. So where's the problem?

And your level of hyperbole is amazing.








That wasn't a compliment.

[pipelineaudio]

Well, honey, if the baby's a citizen as you say, he's getting what the rest of us get, and legally. So where's the problem?

And your level of hyperbole is amazing.








That wasn't a compliment.

No problem, invading foreign soil to plop down a baby in order to steal from their taxpayers and increase your lifestyle is just groovy

[slingblade]

No problem, invading foreign soil to plop down a baby in order to steal from their taxpayers and increase your lifestyle is just groovy

You know what? It doesn't bother me at all that anyone comes here from Mexico in order to improve his or her life.

Probably because it bothered your ancestors so much when my ancestors came here to improve their lives. Boo hoo.

[Wire]

In return for having the child, Ms. Kurro will receive the equivalent of $1,560 a month from her government for over a year, a lot of money in a country where the average monthly salary is $650.

I find that example incredibly stupid. The sum you get depends on your income in the year before going on maternity leave. My wife's (25) "mother's salary" is about 400$, because she was working as a lecturer in the university, which is not a particularly well-paid position. Nonetheless, I think we cannot complain when compared to other people.

Now, what's the point in paying large sums of money to an old business-woman, who will have no more children and who quite probably wouldn't need it anyway. Life isn't so expensive here and she wouldn't become poor because of that. But poverty very much threatens young people, who are just beginning their independant lives.

Personally, I would set the upper limit where the average salary is and use the excess to support more families for a longer period. But I guess that even a bit flawed system is better than no system at all.

PS. We intend to have at least 2 more children :).

[steverino]

Wire- I am confused. What country do you live in?

[pipelineaudio]

You know what? It doesn't bother me at all that anyone comes here from Mexico in order to improve his or her life.

Probably because it bothered your ancestors so much when my ancestors came here to improve their lives. Boo hoo.

It doesnt bother you because YOU are benefiting from it while * I * am paying for it

How about sharing the wealth

[Rob Lister]

In return for having the child, Ms. Kurro will receive the equivalent of $1,560 a month from her government for over a year, a lot of money in a country where the average monthly salary is $650.

I find that example incredibly stupid. The sum you get depends on your income in the year before going on maternity leave. My wife's (25) "mother's salary" is about 400$, because she was working as a lecturer in the university, which is not a particularly well-paid position. Nonetheless, I think we cannot complain when compared to other people.

Now, what's the point in paying large sums of money to an old business-woman, who will have no more children and who quite probably wouldn't need it anyway. Life isn't so expensive here and she wouldn't become poor because of that. But poverty very much threatens young people, who are just beginning their independant lives.

Personally, I would set the upper limit where the average salary is and use the excess to support more families for a longer period. But I guess that even a bit flawed system is better than no system at all.

PS. We intend to have at least 2 more children :).

Will, at least someone lives there.

[CFLarsen]

The "Kid's Cheque" is paid to all Danish kids (actually their moms), 4 times a year. It amounts to 3,410 DKR (US$568), if the child is from 0-2 years old, 3,081 DKR (US$513)from 3-6 years old, and 2.424 DKR (UDS$404) from 7-17 years old.

It is tax-free, and independent of income.

That's 30,748 DKR, which amounts to US$5124.

Tax-free, remember?

[Rob Lister]

Tax-free, remember?

erm...at least on the receiving end anyway.

[bjb]

My country pays illegal mexican invaders quite handsomely to drop their babies on the USA side of the fence. Citizenship, welfare, free health care, education, etc etc etc

Those babies are my fellow U.S. citizens. Also equal protection clause of the 14th amendment applies to individuals, not just citizens. This is why even illegal aliens are entitled to a free education, health care, etc. Why must you hate the constitution so much?

[Wire]

Wire- I am confused. What country do you live in?

Estonia. Sorry, I should have mentioned that.

[Rob Lister]

Estonia. Sorry, I should have mentioned that.

Well, by golly, you may be our only member from Estonia. How's life there? Fill us in. My knowledge of it comes from Wiki, CIA Factbook and Google Earth.

[DanishDynamite]

Excellent initiative by the Estonian government. And it even seems to be working.

Most of Europe should line up to learn from Estonia. On not just on this issue.

[slingblade]

It doesnt bother you because YOU are benefiting from it while * I * am paying for it

How about sharing the wealth

Honey, what the hell is it you think I get? Who do you think I am?

I can't wait to find out.

[pipelineaudio]

cheap goods?

Cheap food?

Cheap lawn care?

Cheap carwashes?

Cheap labor?

Cheap houses?

How much help do you need with this?

[slingblade]

cheap goods?

Cheap food?

Cheap lawn care?

Cheap carwashes?

Cheap labor?

Cheap houses?

How much help do you need with this?

So I get all that, and don't pay for it, but you do? No, sorry. It's not that I need help understanding, it's that you need to turn down the volume on the hyperbole and speak in complete sentences.

I wash my own car, and mow my own lawn, by the way. I don't find food particularly cheap, and I rent my living space.

And I AM the cheap labor. You're welcome.

[pipelineaudio]

So I get all that, and don't pay for it, but you do? No, sorry. It's not that I need help understanding, it's that you need to turn down the volume on the hyperbole and speak in complete sentences.


I pay for the invader's health care yet am not allowed it for myself

I pay for the invaders' education, yet the citizens education quality goes down
(see the million dollar a day fine for not being able to afford to teach criminals in their chosen language for instance)

I pay the invaders welfare, no matter how many fake identities they have stolen

What is it you do?

[slingblade]

I'm a lifetime minimum-wage worker who tried to go to college to better herself and her income, ended up with a killer amount of debt, and so far, no job.

I've waited your table in restaurants, sold you clothes, groceries, gas, cigarettes, tourist souvenirs, and cocktails. I've baked your pies and danishes, decorated your wedding cake, dressed in a costume to entertain your kids, painted your house inside and out, cleaned your carpets, cut and edged your yard, cleaned your motel room, and waited hand and foot on your behind for over 33 years. I've mopped your floors, cleaned your toilets, and made sure you had a nice time spending your money.

But one thing I've never done is blame Mexicans for any of it.

I don't get medical care, either. I don't get food stamps, or welfare, or any handouts. I can't replace my glasses, out of which I can barely see, nor my false teeth, which never have fit right and interfere with eating and talking. I have bursitis from riding my bike two miles to school every day for five years and one day I won't be able to walk anymore. As it is, it hurts a lot. I'm not making it, and am slowly losing my mind.

But you go ahead and blame the Mexicans. I'm sure your problems are worse than mine, as I'm equally sure they're all to blame.

God, grow up and get a life. And get me one while you're at it.

[steverino]

Well, by golly, you may be our only member from Estonia. How's life there? Fill us in. My knowledge of it comes from Wiki, CIA Factbook and Google Earth.

Yes, do. Should I move there and make some babies? As Borat would say, I'd like to make romance inside some women there.:D

[pipelineaudio]

I'm a lifetime minimum-wage worker who tried to go to college to better herself and her income, ended up with a killer amount of debt, and so far, no job.

I've waited your table in restaurants, sold you clothes, groceries, gas, cigarettes, tourist souvenirs, and cocktails. I've baked your pies and danishes, decorated your wedding cake, dressed in a costume to entertain your kids, painted your house inside and out, cleaned your carpets, cut and edged your yard, cleaned your motel room, and waited hand and foot on your behind for over 33 years. I've mopped your floors, cleaned your toilets, and made sure you had a nice time spending your money.

But one thing I've never done is blame Mexicans for any of it.


You havent done ANY of this stuff in arizona in the last ten years, not for minimum wage!

You have proved my point actually. Used to be american citizens could get jobs, minimum wage or higher

those jobs are now given to criminals, by criminals, for less than minimum wage

consequently, noone has money to put back in to the economy, except a few fatcats

[steverino]

I'm a lifetime minimum-wage worker who tried to go to college to better herself and her income, ended up with a killer amount of debt, and so far, no job.

I've waited your table in restaurants, sold you clothes, groceries, gas, cigarettes, tourist souvenirs, and cocktails. I've baked your pies and danishes, decorated your wedding cake, dressed in a costume to entertain your kids, painted your house inside and out, cleaned your carpets, cut and edged your yard, cleaned your motel room, and waited hand and foot on your behind for over 33 years. I've mopped your floors, cleaned your toilets, and made sure you had a nice time spending your money.

But one thing I've never done is blame Mexicans for any of it.

I don't get medical care, either. I don't get food stamps, or welfare, or any handouts. I can't replace my glasses, out of which I can barely see, nor my false teeth, which never have fit right and interfere with eating and talking. I have bursitis from riding my bike two miles to school every day for five years and one day I won't be able to walk anymore. As it is, it hurts a lot. I'm not making it, and am slowly losing my mind.

But you go ahead and blame the Mexicans. I'm sure your problems are worse than mine, as I'm equally sure they're all to blame.

God, grow up and get a life. And get me one while you're at it.

I am truly sorry for your frustrations, and hope things improve for you. I think you are very brave to tell it like it is on this forum. I just don't get your point here, though. If I were in your circumstance I would resent the free ride that the illegal immigrants receive AT MY EXPENSE. I think the government would be in a stronger position to provide us legal hard-working citizens with eye glasses and other necessities if it were not burdened funding illegal alians. Again, the Ellis Island influx of new Americans was legal passage, while those sneaking into America from Mexico do so against the law.

[Wire]

How's life there? Fill us in.

Mostly like everywhere else I suppose. Politicians are stupid and/or corrupted (not all of course). Public transport is crappy when compared to Western Europe. Weather is awful, for it's been raining for two weeks now. Prices are comparable to those in Western Europe, but wages are not. Police, rescue, schools etc are underfinanced. Science too has hard times getting support from the state (I am an astronomer myself). General belief into paranormal is high and people think it's cool to hate US and Israel :(.

On the plus side there quit a lot of relatively untouched nature. Lots of well-developed web services by state, municipalities, banks etc, which are really easy and efficient to use (Skype is also developed here).

[Wire]

Yes, do. Should I move there and make some babies? As Borat would say, I'd like to make romance inside some women there.:D

Essentially you just have to find a wealthy woman. I guess it's not easier or harder in Estonia than in any other country (unless you are already rich yourself).

[Q-Source]

You havent done ANY of this stuff in arizona in the last ten years, not for minimum wage!

You have proved my point actually. Used to be american citizens could get jobs, minimum wage or higher

those jobs are now given to criminals, by criminals, for less than minimum wage

consequently, noone has money to put back in to the economy, except a few fatcats


I think the US is very lucky to get Mexican illegal immigrants. Some countries in Europe get a lot of illegal immigration and many of them just milk the system (for example in the UK). They get benefits, free health care, etc. and they don't have to work. Because the UK has strict rules about employing illegals, then many of them cannot get a proper job and become criminals. Real criminals.
On the contrary most of the illegal Mexicans know that they are going to the US to work. Their ultimate goal is to make some money and send it back to Mexico. You think that paying taxes is the only way to contribute to the economy, but this is not. What they do, the services they provide are also part of the national output. Their work allows prices to stay competitive. So you can buy cheap clothes, TVs, food, etc.

[pipelineaudio]

Q source I wouldnt be so quick to be so sure

Our experience here mirrors yours except that some become criminals professionally, and others just do criminal labor

When there is no money coming in because noone has jobs, YOU dont make money either

Companies arent LEGALLY allowed to hire illegals here anymore than in the UK, just MANY MANY MANY people who dont live here but like to tell us what to do, insist on NOT enforcing the laws regarding this

[Q-Source]

I know that in theory US companies or employers should not hire illegals, but in practice they do. So most of the illegals get a job. I haven't heard a single story about a Mexican risking his life to enter the US just to milk the system, to get health care, or benefits. The situation in the UK is the opposite to the US, here people from African countries, from Pakistan, India, from Easter Europe come precisely because they know that they can claim benefits, free accommodation, free health services, etc. This is a fact, this is not anecdotal evidence. In the US, you cannot do that. So, what stimulus do illegals in the UK have to work? None.

That's why I say that your country is quite lucky to get illegals from Mexico who are eager to work and to contribute to the economic growth. Yes, I am sure there are Mexican criminals, drug dealers, rapists, but they are the minority. They don't make headlines. Here in the UK, you hear news about Muslim terrorists all the time, about Nigerians cheating the system, etc. This is also a reason why in the US there is more sympathy towards illegal immigrants. Many US citizens like them, they even support their cause. But in the UK you can see less tolerance, you will never see a black MP, or a Chinese MP or a famous Pakistani singer or actress. In the US this is common.

[Tanja]

But in the UK you can see less tolerance, you will never see a black MP, or a Chinese MP or a famous Pakistani singer or actress. In the US this is common.

Oona King, David Lammy or Adam Afriyie might disagree. What kind of silly sweeping statement is that?

(Yes I know Oona King was defeated in last election by George Galloway of all people, but she used to be an MP)

[Q-Source]

Oona King, David Lammy or Adam Afriyie might disagree. What kind of silly sweeping statement is that?

(Yes I know Oona King was defeated in last election by George Galloway of all people, but she used to be an MP)

Well maybe, I exaggerated but still you can count with your fingers how many descendants from Africans, Chinese and Pakistans are MPs in Great Britain.

[CFLarsen]

erm...at least on the receiving end anyway.

What do you mean?

[Tanja]

Well maybe, I exaggerated but still you can count with your fingers how many descendants from Africans, Chinese and Pakistan are MPs in Great Britain.

Well, of course the parliament could be more representative of ethnic minorities, but that is not what you said. You made a sweeping statement which was incorrect. Why exaggerate to make a point, when being truthful will still make a similar point?

From a parliament note on social background of MPs: (http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/notes/snsg-01528.pdf)

Following the 2005 election, 2.3% of Members of
Parliament are from non-white backgrounds. This compares with the 8% of the UK
population who were from a non-white background at the time of the 2001 Census of
Population.

And, as a former Lost fan, how could I forget this gorgeous British man of Indian descent:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/f/f2/180px-Lost-sayid.jpg

[Rob Lister]

What do you mean?

Meaning the money has to come from somewhere. If not taxes, where?

[CFLarsen]

Meaning the money has to come from somewhere. If not taxes, where?

...so? What does that have to do with it being tax-free?

[Q-Source]

Well, of course the parliament could be more representative of ethnic minorities, but that is not what you said. You made a sweeping statement which was incorrect. Why exaggerate to make a point, when being truthful will still make a similar point?


Yes, I love the Kumars at No. 42. Best show ever.

You keep bringing specific examples when I am talking in general. In the US, there are TV channels with latin people, speaking in Spanish, there are Governors descendant from Mexicans, well you can see the participation of immigrants everywhere. At many different levels.
My point was that on average US citizens are more tolerant towards illegal immigrants because they are more integrated to that culture, to the economy and politics. In the UK there are bottlenecks that do not allow this happening. Religion is also part of the problem. This alienates people more.

[pipelineaudio]

I know that in theory US companies or employers should not hire illegals, but in practice they do. So most of the illegals get a job. I haven't heard a single story about a Mexican risking his life to enter the US just to milk the system, to get health care, or benefits. .

You are GRAVELY GRAVELY misinformed

Our situation here is the same

[Rob Lister]

...so? What does that have to do with it being tax-free?

It is "tax-free" to the receiver, not to the giver.

[CFLarsen]

It is "tax-free" to the receiver, not to the giver.

How does the giver - the state - pay taxes on something it gives to the citizens??

[Rob Lister]

How does the giver - the state - pay taxes on something it gives to the citizens??

Where does the state get the money that it gives?

[slingblade]

Wow, way to completely miss a point, guys.

Whatever my problems, they weren't caused by people crossing the border.

You know what? None of it really matters. You can't do anything about it but holler and shout and display ignorance and bigotry with every word. And I certainly can't stop you. You want to hate certain people? Hate 'em.

Go ahead. Sit in your house and seethe. Sit in your car and stew. Sit at your desk and waste time contemplating all the ways your life has become unbearable because of immigrants. Sit on your American behind and complain about how bad YOU have it.

Me, I'm just going to keep blaming myself, and trying to figure out how I can fix my own mess.

[CFLarsen]

Where does the state get the money that it gives?

From the tax-payers. Duh.

How does the giver - the state - pay taxes on something it gives to the citizens??

[Rob Lister]

From the tax-payers. Duh.

Glad you finally got it! Thus, the tax on the front end. It isn't tax free. YOU pay for it. Which I think is fine. We do it to, but in a different way. It amounts to a tax on those that do not breed payed to those who do. Nothing necessarily wrong with that so long as it is represented as that. Let the voters decide.

[Tanja]

You keep bringing specific examples when I am talking in general.

No. You were making a ridiculous sweeping statement:

But in the UK you can see less tolerance, you will never see a black MP, or a Chinese MP or a famous Pakistani singer or actress. In the US this is common.

I pointed out that it was incorrect, and the degree to which it was incorrect, and I provided a link to a credible source supporting what I said.

In the US, there are TV channels with latin people, speaking in Spanish, there are Governors descendant from Mexicans, well you can see the participation of immigrants everywhere. At many different levels.
My point was that on average US citizens are more tolerant towards illegal immigrants because they are more integrated to that culture, to the economy and politics. In the UK there are bottlenecks that do not allow this happening. Religion is also part of the problem. This alienates people more.

From the top of my head I know that BBC has a radio station called BBC Asian network. I don't know if there are similar TV stations. But, there are clearly other factors here: Most of migration into the UK was from Commonwealth countries where English is widely spoken or the first language, so there is no clearly identifiable "second language" in the UK. UK only opened up to migration and migrant labour in the 60's. The population of the US is about five times larger than the population of the UK. The percentage of ethnic minorities in the UK is between 8 and 10 percent, and much higher in the US.

[Rob Lister]

The percentage of ethnic minorities in the UK is between 8 and 10 percent, and much higher in the US.

Indeed.

Ethnic groups: white 81.7%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2% (2003 est.)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (including persons of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)

But!

Languages:English 82.1%, Spanish 10.7%, other Indo-European 3.8%, Asian and Pacific island 2.7%, other 0.7% (2000 census)

Therefore, figure at least 10% Latino and taken mostly from the white percentage.

[CFLarsen]

Glad you finally got it! Thus, the tax on the front end. It isn't tax free. YOU pay for it. Which I think is fine. We do it to, but in a different way. It amounts to a tax on those that do not breed payed to those who do. Nothing necessarily wrong with that so long as it is represented as that. Let the voters decide.

Huh??

Yes, it is tax-free. It is money that some people get, and not others. The extra income is tax-free. They don't have to pay taxes from that income. That makes it tax-free.

What you are arguing is that there is no such thing as a tax-free income. Obviously, there is.

And you are wrong about describing it as a tax on those that do not breed. You forget, leave out, or simply don't know - I don't know which is worse - that those who do breed also pay the taxes that go into the state budget, that makes this subsidy possible.

I get the feeling you don't like the idea of taxes, but you would have a lot more punch in your argument, if you didn't make such an obvious rookie error.

[The Black Fox]

Mostly like everywhere else I suppose. Politicians are stupid and/or corrupted (not all of course). Public transport is crappy when compared to Western Europe. Weather is awful, for it's been raining for two weeks now. Prices are comparable to those in Western Europe, but wages are not. Police, rescue, schools etc are underfinanced. Science too has hard times getting support from the state (I am an astronomer myself). General belief into paranormal is high and people think it's cool to hate US and Israel :(.

You've just described Britain. Are you sure you don't live here?

On the plus side there quit a lot of relatively untouched nature. Lots of well-developed web services by state, municipalities, banks etc, which are really easy and efficient to use (Skype is also developed here).

Ah, you definitely don't live here :p

[pipelineaudio]

Sit at your desk and waste time contemplating all the ways your life has become unbearable because of immigrants.

WOW, nice totally BLATANT misrepresentation

My life, my culture, my everything is BETTER because of immigrants

However, that is tempered by the crap CRIMINALS have caused me

To call illegal invaders immigrants is the same as calling rape sex

[bjb]

I haven't heard a single story about a Mexican risking his life to enter the US just to milk the system, to get health care, or benefits.

I'm relatively 'soft' on illegal immigration but I think we should play fair here on this forum and understand what is really going on in the United States. For about 30 years, my family owned farms in central California. As such, we saw how illegal immigration changed over the years. In the 70's, we had mostly single, young men who came to work in the summer and took their money back with them to Mexico. However, by the 80's, whole families were coming in, and coming in to stay and have even more kids. We also started hearing how they were able to beat the border patrol and how they were milking the system once they got here. The prefer to cross the border late at night on holidays, since the border patrol is understaffed and undermotivated on those nights. They said that in Mexico, it is a dream to have your kids educated in the United States so whole families are willing to cross the border. I don't know how illegal immigration works in other countries, but in the United States, this sort of family immigration really does occur.

It seems to me that the choice is very simple. Either stay in Mexico and live a life of poverty, or come to the United States, get a free education, and you will live much better than you ever could if your family had stayed. Another way to look at it is Mexico has a problem with poverty, and rather than address the problem, they are happy to let their people escape over the border and become someone else's problem. Our immigration problem is different because it is in another country's (Mexico's) best interest to have it continue. As long as this situation exists, the illegal immigration will continue.

[pipelineaudio]

Mexico doesnt just "let" their citizens cross illegally into the US, they are actually OPPOSING us putting up a fence!!!

There is a slight backlash we are hearing over here, that many communities are mourning the loss of their young minds.

[Rob Lister]

Huh??

What you are arguing is that there is no such thing as a tax-free income. Obviously, there is.


Clearly you are mistaken about what I am arguing, or intentionally misrepresenting said same. I vote the latter.

[Ace_of_Sevens]

If Mexicans want to be Americans so much, how about we just annex the whole place? It went quite well when we did the first half and we'd get rid of sucky Mexican government and most illegal immigration. We'd only need to worry about those dman Guatemalans. Everyone's problems are solved.

[bjb]

Mexico doesnt just "let" their citizens cross illegally into the US, they are actually OPPOSING us putting up a fence!!!

There is a slight backlash we are hearing over here, that many communities are mourning the loss of their young minds.

Gee, I hope you aren't trying to imply that the Mexican government glorifies illegal immigration (http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/KMSB-20060609-dsbp-cashprize.6cc5eb61.html)! The next thing you're going to do is claim that the Mexican government has produced a pamphlet of instructions (http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/immigration/manual.htm)on how to avoid the dangers of illegal immigration, or say something crazy about how their government is handing out maps with the best route (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1537381)into the United States. Because that would be all crazy, right?

[pipelineaudio]

Is that real?

Itll take some doing to get more upset than over our million dollar a day fine for no ESL money, but that looks like a good bet

[CFLarsen]

Clearly you are mistaken about what I am arguing, or intentionally misrepresenting said same. I vote the latter.

Very well: What income is tax-free?

[Rob Lister]

Very well: What income is tax-free?

Income that is neither taxed nor derived from taxes.

[CFLarsen]

Income that is neither taxed nor derived from taxes.

Where do you have that definition from?

[Q-Source]

Excuse me but what this evil Mexicans debate and taxes have anything to do with "Estonia will pay $20,000 to make them a baby"?

[Q-Source]

Before putting the thread on track, I need to reply to this post.


I'm relatively 'soft' on illegal immigration but I think we should play fair here on this forum and understand what is really going on in the United States. For about 30 years, my family owned farms in central California. As such, we saw how illegal immigration changed over the years. In the 70's, we had mostly single, young men who came to work in the summer and took their money back with them to Mexico.

In reality there was a programme in the sixties designed by both governments to employ temporal workers in agriculture. So massive numbers of young guys entered legally to the US.



However, by the 80's, whole families were coming in, and coming in to stay and have even more kids.

Well, eventually those workers that remained in the US brought their families or married Mexican women in the US. Logical, no?
These men were WORKERS. They were contributing to the economy. You must know by now that whites and blacks do not work in agriculture, unless they are the owners of the land of course.




We also started hearing how they were able to beat the border patrol and how they were milking the system once they got here.

BS. They were contributing to the economy, they were entitle to receive "free" health care and education for themselves and their families. The white employers are milking the system because they pay less in taxes and social security if they don't declare that they are hiring workers. If there are any thieves in your country, those are.


They said that in Mexico, it is a dream to have your kids educated in the United States so whole families are willing to cross the border.

More BS. Millions of Mexicans get excellent education in Mexico. Public education is free, from primary school to postgraduate studies. Of course people who enter the US have no choice but to get education in that country. Remember that MILLIONS of Mexicans stay in Mexico.



It seems to me that the choice is very simple. Either stay in Mexico and live a life of poverty, or come to the United States, get a free education, and you will live much better than you ever could if your family had stayed.

Are you educated in the US? Your huge ignorance shows the poor level of education that your contry really provides. Mexico as many countries in the world offers great education, great jobs and high living standards, but these things don't come for free. People who study and work will never have to face the dichotomy that you mention. People who cross the border are usually people who didn't make the effort to pursue an education in Mexico, who always lived in poverty and looked for an easy way to solve their problems.

[Glen.Nogami]

So, pipeline, would you be opposed to simply giving them citizenship and making them pay taxes like the rest of us? Or are you simply opposed to immigration in general? I don't know what is fundamentally wrong with people coming into a nation primarily derived from immigration in the first place.

[pipelineaudio]

So Glen, when are you going to stop beating your wife?

As I have stated not only in this thread but others, I am all for immigration

Only the most ignorant, OR most media suckered, will call immigration and criminal invasion the same thing

people who trespass and steal Identities among other things are no different than hose who rob banks

they are criminals

People who come here by legal means are IMMIGRANTS

Dont you DARE put down the hard work these people have done to come to this country by equating them with criminals!!!

Calling illegal tresspassing immigration is the same as calling rape sex

[pipelineaudio]

Q-source, your ignorance on this subject is astounding!