Anomolies at ground zero

[Docker]

Has anyone explained the mysterious burns of these cars? Some are "fused" and welded. In., one case the front half is burned and the back untouched.

"WMD at the WTC" claims its proof of thermonuclear devices, but I hasten to add I dont agree with that.

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image8.jpg

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image9.jpg
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image11.jpg






Pictures from Judy Woods new paper: http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/StarWarsBeam6.html

[gumboot]

[B]Has anyone explained the mysterious burns of these cars?


What's so mysterious? Some were completely burned. Some were partially burned.

-Gumboot

[T.A.M.]

Yes, i would be curious as to how they find that partially burned cars equates to proof of Thermonuclear Explosion. How do they say this is so?

TAM

[Anti-sophist]

"WMD at the WTC" claims its proof of thermonuclear devices, but I hasten to add I dont agree with that.

I'm interested to hear how they decided it was a thermonuclear device. Most specifically, how they ruled out normal fission weapons.

[Docker]

Yes, i would be curious as to how they find that partially burned cars equates to proof of Thermonuclear Explosion. How do they say this is so?

TAM

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.

[Gravy]

There is no mystery. The collapses of WTC 1, 2, and 7 all caused numerous car and truck fires. Some of those were extinguished by the FDNY. Cars are not always totally consumed when they burn. Keep in mind that you've been getting information from the site of a woman who thinks "Star Wars Beams" were involved in the destruction of the towers.

Docker, you're way ahead of yourself. You've started three other threads in which you have not provided evidence for your claims. Why not get those resolved before moving on to other issues?

Still waiting for those north tower elevator/basement explosion witness accounts.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Huge burning towers fell over.

Burning wreckage thrown all over the place.

More stuff got burned.

How can twoofers miss such blatantly obvious explanations?

[DavidJames]

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.I'm shaking my head as I ask this, but what that heck.

Evidence for your claim, lad.

[Docker]

I'm interested to hear how they decided it was a thermonuclear device. Most specifically, how they ruled out normal fission weapons.

I would be interested too, i'll watch the film when it surfaces on google.

They say thermonuclear because the burning of the cars show intense heat but no massive blast, something like a mini neutron bomb. I'm just paraphrasing them, they are talking garbage in my opinion

[T.A.M.]

Yes the question is were the cars near the towers, then the wreckage of the cars moved to another locale, and hence where these picks were taken?

TAM

[Gravy]

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.I suggest you read the accounts of the first responders. Several specifically mention the fires in that parking lot across West Street. And yes, many of those cars were hit with debris. See the damage? You do realize that fire can easily spread between vehicles that are parked next to each other, right?

[Anti-sophist]

http://scientificsonline.com/search.asp?t=ss&ss=geiger+counter&sid=google&cm_mmc=google-_-cpc-_-edmu-_-geigercounter&bhcd2=1161662100

The cost to find out the truth is about 300$ + the cost of a plane ticket.

[Gravy]

I'm just paraphrasing them, they are talking garbage in my opinionThen why did you start a thread about it?

[Docker]

There is no mystery. The collapses of WTC 1, 2, and 7 all caused numerous car and truck fires. Some of those were extinguished by the FDNY. Cars are not always totally consumed when they burn. Keep in mind that you've been getting information from the site of a woman who thinks "Star Wars Beams" were involved in the destruction of the towers.

Docker, you're way ahead of yourself. You've started three other threads in which you have not provided evidence for your claims. Why not get those resolved before moving on to other issues?

Still waiting for those north tower elevator/basement explosion witness accounts.

Not true. I just got the pictures from Judy woods site. I don't endorse her work.

These pictures have been knocking around for ages.

Would you care to debunk Jowenko's quote, boss?

[Docker]

Then why did you start a thread about it?

I said thermonuclear bombs was garbage. I think what happened to these cars is odd.

[Docker]

Then why did you start a thread about it?

Please stop misrepresenting me. I have asked you several times now.

Is none of this sinking in yet?

[Gravy]

They say thermonuclear because the burning of the cars show intense heat but no massive blast, something like a mini neutron bomb.The thing is, hundreds of people were right there when it happened, particularly by the parking lot, and unless they were hit with debris, they survived.

Let's try to take this seriously, okay?

[gumboot]

They say thermonuclear because the burning of the cars show intense heat but no massive blast, something like a mini neutron bomb. I'm just paraphrasing them, they are talking garbage in my opinion


That's one of the more retarded things I have ever heard.

Of course, the presence of digital video footage of the WTC impacts and collapses proves it was not a nuclear device, but never mind.


It's also worth mentioning nuclear blasts have enormously massive shockwaves. Neutron warheads are significant because the actual fireball and blast area is much smaller, with higher radiation levels destroying electronics and killing people. I'm not aware that radiation alone from a nuclear blast will set cars outside the blast area alight.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Please stop misrepresenting me. I have asked you several times now.

Is none of this sinking in yet?Docker, in bold print, you declared some of those cars "fused and welded." You asked about the "mystery." You said they were not hit with debris. I'm not misrepresenting you. You're behaving like a fool.

[Pardalis]

I said thermonuclear bombs was garbage. I think what happened to these cars is odd.

Maybe there were car bombs as well...:eye-poppi

[alexg]

I said thermonuclear bombs was garbage. I think what happened to these cars is odd.

Massive skyscrapers fall and unleash holy hell on the ground. Counter -intuitive outcomes are to be expected. I'd like to see a map showing where these cars were in relation to the buildings.

[dirtywick]

Would you care to debunk Jowenko's quote, boss?

I can do the abridged version:

He was shown a short video clip and says that before he's even aware that the building is WTC7. As the interview progresses he becomes increasingly confused and bewildered as he learns more about the building, such as when he's told it happens on the same day as the other two fell and that it is on fire. He knew very little to nothing about the building when he was shown the video, so it's definately suspect.

Also, if you watch the Jowenko video where he comments on WTC1 and 2 he says that CD simply isn't possible in the building conditions because the heat and fire would destroy the blasting caps and explosives. The building conditions were very similar, so why would he say it's possible in one and not the other.

I believe he was taken advantage of and the video shown under suspicious circumstances. He also refuses to comment further.

There's probably more to say, but that's adequate for me considering there hasn't been one CD expert to agree with him from any part of the world that I'm aware of.

[T.A.M.]

Jowenko is a top European Demolitions Expert, is he not. he said that in his opinion, watching Video Footage only, that the WTC 1 & 2 were NOT brought down by CD, and that WTC 7 looked like it was CD.

At the time he made his original comments, he was not told of the fires or the damage done to the WTC 7. He was given NO DETAILS at all, merely asked to comment on what he thought was the cause of a building collapsing on the video.

TAM

[gumboot]

I said thermonuclear bombs was garbage. I think what happened to these cars is odd.


You fight it odd that they burned?

Why?

-Gumboot

[Loss Leader]

Would you care to debunk Jowenko's quote, boss?

Jowenko stated that he suspected the towers were not brought down by CD. He stated that WTC7 was a CD after looking at pictures of the building without knowing what they were pictures of, when or where they were taken. He then stood by his statement because, as he explained, there were government offices in WTC7. He then got inundated with questions from all over the globe because he remains the only demolitions expert who has ever indicated that there was any likelihood that any of the WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition.

After that, he clammed up. He will not give interviews and will not answer questions about his opinion. He hasn't retracted it but he won't even discuss it anymore.

For an expert witness, his is not very strong testimony.

[alexg]

Why not simply burning debris from towers falls on cars? For a start.

[Gravy]

Yes the question is were the cars near the towers, then the wreckage of the cars moved to another locale, and hence where these picks were taken?That's true with the cop car. The photo was taken after it was moved across town near the East River.

[Docker]

That's one of the more retarded things I have ever heard.

Of course, the presence of digital video footage of the WTC impacts and collapses proves it was not a nuclear device, but never mind.


It's also worth mentioning nuclear blasts have enormously massive shockwaves. Neutron warheads are significant because the actual fireball and blast area is much smaller, with higher radiation levels destroying electronics and killing people. I'm not aware that radiation alone from a nuclear blast will set cars outside the blast area alight.

-Gumboot

I did hear about some increased lymphoma rates among the clear up people.

No I don't have a source

[Docker]

Jowenko stated that he suspected the towers were not brought down by CD. He stated that WTC7 was a CD after looking at pictures of the building without knowing what they were pictures of, when or where they were taken. He then stood by his statement because, as he explained, there were government offices in WTC7. He then got inundated with questions from all over the globe because he remains the only demolitions expert who has ever indicated that there was any likelihood that any of the WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition.

After that, he clammed up. He will not give interviews and will not answer questions about his opinion. He hasn't retracted it but he won't even discuss it anymore.

For an expert witness, his is not very strong testimony.

The fact he clams up proves the pressure experts are under to stick to the official story

[Anti-sophist]

I did hear about some increased lymphoma rates among the clear up people.

No I don't have a source

I heard about a magical spaghetti monster that loves pirates and midgets.

[alexg]

The cop car is crushed from the top. Suggesting something fell on it, from above.

[Anti-sophist]

The fact he clams up proves the pressure experts are under to stick to the official story

Ridiculous logical leap detected.

[gumboot]

I did hear about some increased lymphoma rates among the clear up people.

No I don't have a source


A neutron bomb would have killed thousands upon thousands of people instantly. Every single digital camera anywhere near the WTC would have fried itself. The police and news helicopters around the site would have suffered catastrophic system failures.

Need I go on?

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Would you care to debunk Jowenko's quote, boss?The one in which he said the towers were definitely not brought down by explosives, or the one in which he said WTC 7 was demolished because of the sensitive information stored inside?

Docker.

I asked you to read my paper on WTC 7. Do not bring it up with me until you do. As I've already told you, I'm not here to repeat myself. Fair enough?

Now how about providing the evidence that's required to support your claims in the other threads you started?

[LashL]

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.

Source and evidence, please.

[Docker]

Jowenko is a top European Demolitions Expert, is he not. he said that in his opinion, watching Video Footage only, that the WTC 1 & 2 were NOT brought down by CD, and that WTC 7 looked like it was CD.

At the time he made his original comments, he was not told of the fires or the damage done to the WTC 7. He was given NO DETAILS at all, merely asked to comment on what he thought was the cause of a building collapsing on the video.

TAM

He is an expert, I have no reason to disbelieve him.

NIST dont know why 7 collapsed.

[realitybites]

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.
Were you following all these cars around that morning? Do you have video of them not getting hit by anything and not catching fire? I only trust video.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but that one police car certainly looks like something came crashing down on top of it. Unless the NYPD was going with the whole "concave-roof-doors-won't-latch" motif in 2001.

[realitybites]

NIST dont know why 7 collapsed.
Really? You might want to wait for their final report to come out before making such a statement. It sometimes takes a while to... you know...

.... investigate.

[TV's Frank]

I did hear about some increased lymphoma rates among the clear up people.

No I don't have a source

Military Weapons Scientist: "Sir! We've finally perfected and tested our newest civilization-destroying bomb! The damage it causes is incredible!"

General: "Excellent! What is the damage caused by the weapon?"

Military Weapons Scientist: "It increases lymphoma rates."

General: "..."

[alexg]

I think Dr. Evil accidently directed the energy beam directly at those cars, his arm probably got bumped while he was taking the towers down floor by floor. Probably explains why he left some core standing too.

[Docker]

Dr Sunder, Head of official NIST report on Building 7 says:

"We are studying the horizontal movement East to West,internal to the structure, on the fifth to senenth floors, but truthfully, I don't really know. We've had trouble getting a handle on building No. 7"
(New York Magazine, March 27th 2006)

[Docker]

A neutron bomb would have killed thousands upon thousands of people instantly. Every single digital camera anywhere near the WTC would have fried itself. The police and news helicopters around the site would have suffered catastrophic system failures.

Need I go on?

-Gumboot

I agree with you. When are you going to pay attention?

[LashL]

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.


Sources and evidence, please.

[realitybites]

Dr Sunder, Head of official NIST report on Building 7 says:

"We are studying the horizontal movement East to West,internal to the structure, on the fifth to senenth floors, but truthfully, I don't really know. We've had trouble getting a handle on building No. 7"
(New York Magazine, March 27th 2006)
Oh. I stand corrected. I wasn't aware NIST's final report on building 7 was going to be published in New York Magazine.

I better go through my back-issues of Highlights to see if Goofus and Galant have any info on that Cheney stand-down order.

[Gravy]

Man, I love a realitybites post.

[Docker]

Oh. I stand corrected. I wasn't aware NIST's final report on building 7 was going to be published in New York Magazine.

I better go through my back-issues of Hilights to see if Goofus and Galant have any info on that Cheney stand-down order.

Why do people here resort to sarcasm when they are losing?

The point is that the head of the investigation hasn't got a clue why it collapsed. It collapsed 5 years ago and all your beloved experts can't work out why.

[realitybites]

Why do people here resort to sarcasm when they are losing?

The point is that the head of the investigation hasn't got a clue why it collapsed. It collapsed 5 years ago and all your beloved experts can't work out why.
The point is the investigation is on-going. That's how investigations work. You can't just sit at home and GoogleVideo all your answers. And forgive me for not putting much stock in your quote. I have this nagging feeling some precious context is missing.

[Docker]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg)

[realitybites]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg)
... cuz wood stoves is like treez.

Seriously dude... you're comparing two 110 story structures with a wood stove? Can you not comprehend why sarcasm is often used with you people? How on earth are we to take you seriously with [rule8] like that?

[Docker]

The point is the investigation is on-going. That's how investigations work. You can't just sit at home and GoogleVideo all your answers. And forgive me for not putting much stock in your quote. I have this nagging feeling some precious context is missing.

Right so if the investigation is on-going, why are you claiming it wasn't controlled demolition?

Do you know more than NIST does? Maybe they need you on their team.

[Docker]

... cuz wood stoves is like treez.

See? Resort to a joke when you dont have an answer.

[Dog Town]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?


Because magical elves are not in them, or because SHE IS STILL IN A COMA!
You decide!

[dirtywick]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg)

Because they're not filled with jet fuel?

[CurtC]

I did hear about some increased lymphoma rates among the clear up people.

No I don't have a source
Well, at least you're showing that you've been here long enough to know that you'll be asked for a source for an assertion like that. The next step is for you not to even post a controversial statement until you've checked it yourself, and then you will post a link to the source at the same time as the thing that needs sourcing.

But congratulations on the progress that you have made.

[Anti-sophist]

Right so if the investigation is on-going, why are you claiming it wasn't controlled demolition?

Do you know more than NIST does? Maybe they need you on their team.

This is why:


14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?
When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released by early 2007.
The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:
An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and
Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.

A crazy idea.. when you want to know the status of a NIST investigation... go to their website: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

[realitybites]

Right so if the investigation is on-going, why are you claiming it wasn't controlled demolition?

Do you know more than NIST does? Maybe they need you on their team.
I've seen no preliminary evidence pointing towards demolition. I see no motive in bringing it down. If I had to guess, NIST isn't so concerned with the "WHY" but with the "HOW". And by "HOW" I mean the progression. Where the collapse started. What failed first. What failed second. And so on.

[CFLarsen]

Burned cars in New York?

It's New York, people. :)

[defaultdotxbe]

Dr Sunder, Head of official NIST report on Building 7 says:

"We are studying the horizontal movement East to West,internal to the structure, on the fifth to senenth floors, but truthfully, I don't really know. We've had trouble getting a handle on building No. 7"
(New York Magazine, March 27th 2006)
but truthfully we really dont know the question hes responding to here

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg)
maybe because no wood burning stoves are supporting 500,000 tons of skyscraper?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg)

The portions of the WTC towers above the fire zones weighed roughly 100,000+ tons in each tower. The top of that stove doesn't even weigh 100,000 GRAMS (for you non-metric types, a gram is 1/1,000,000th of a ton).

This should be a no-brainer.

[Dog Town]

This should be a no-brainer.

28 grams in an ounce, and 2.2 pounds in a kilo. What more do us yanks need?

[LashL]

For the third time,


Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.


Sources and evidence, please.

[Docker]

but truthfully we really dont know the question hes responding to here


maybe because no wood burning stoves are supporting 500,000 tons of skyscraper?

Full article with Sunder here:

http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/16464/index6.html

[TruthSeeker1234]

You all are acting as though there is nothing mysterious about these cars. In some cases the steel is burned but the plastic isn't. In some cases rubber tires have disappeared leaving the steel belts behind, yet without signs of burning. In another case a white car is melted and so difigured as to be barely recognizable as a car, yet no rubble landed near it. The expanding dust clouds that chased everybody down the streets were not hot enough to do that, because people survived those.

I am quite perplexed at these Judy Wood pictures, and I would like to hear an explanation for them.

[Gravy]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?Docker, could you really not figure that out on your own? Did you even try, or are you just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks?

[Docker]

You all are acting as though there is nothing mysterious about these cars. In some cases the steel is burned but the plastic isn't. In some cases rubber tires have disappeared leaving the steel belts behind, yet without signs of burning. In another case a white car is melted and so difigured as to be barely recognizable as a car, yet no rubble landed near it. The expanding dust clouds that chased everybody down the streets were not hot enough to do that, because people survived those.

I am quite perplexed at these Judy Wood pictures, and I would like to hear an explanation for them.

Well said

[Gravy]

I am quite perplexed at these Judy Wood pictures, and I would like to hear an explanation for them.TS, you are quite perplexed by everything. Honestly, I think we've helped you all we can. Dealing with you is very much like dealing with Christophera. This is not a mental health clinic.

[defaultdotxbe]

You all are acting as though there is nothing mysterious about these cars.
yes, there is something mysterious about flammable things burning

In some cases the steel is burned but the plastic isn't. In some cases rubber tires have disappeared leaving the steel belts behind, yet without signs of burning. In another case a white car is melted and so difigured as to be barely recognizable as a car, yet no rubble landed near it.
can you provide a source for this? or did you figure it all out form the 3 pics docker posted in this thread?

The expanding dust clouds that chased everybody down the streets were not hot enough to do that, because people survived those.
but i thought they were pyroclastic flows?

[Gravy]

Well saidSo Docker, you don't find our explanations sensible? You'd prefer to believe that mysterious forces were involved, forces not experienced by anyone who was there?

I beg you to take these issues seriously, and to think before posting, "Is there a rational explanation for this?"

[Docker]

TS, you are quite perplexed by everything. Honestly, I think we've helped you all we can. Dealing with you is very much like dealing with Christophera. This is not a mental health clinic.

Pathetic. I dont need to write more.

[Dog Town]

Pathetic. I dont need to write more.

Aloha!

[LashL]

Oh, it's "mysterious", is it?

Well, then, for the fourth time,

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.


Sources and evidence, please.

....

Edit to denote the distinction between the quadruple asked question which has gone unanswered and the balance of my post which is below.

Come on, Docker, you have made these claims but you haven't offered even a scintilla of evidence to support your assertions. Please provide facts and evidence to support your assertions that (a) these cars were not near the towers; (b) they were not hit by anything; and (c) they didn't catch fire.

Then we can discuss this rationally and in further detail.

[Gravy]

Pathetic. I dont need to write more.I should hope not. You should be using your time to answer the many easily-answered questions you have, like so:

Q: Was there a lot of burning debris around or anything?

A: Not that we were able to hit. But there was a parking lot I think on the corner of Vesey. I'm not sure. I think it was the corner ov Vesey and West. I'm pretty sure, yeah. On the southwest corner of Vesey and West, there was a parking lot that was just roaring. Every car was transmitting to the next car. This was between the two collapses, I think. –Firefighter Kevin Monahan (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110016.PDF)

We went back to Vesey and West Street and started moving the ambulances back towards North End more, and then we started going northbound on North End towards Murray Street. We were moving the triage because we got a report of the parking lot in front of the building we were in, some of the cars were on fire, and we got reports of gas lines that were blown and the fire were starting to get to them. So we ended up moving the triage initially, and we just started heading northbound to Murray Street. –Paramedic Kevin Darnowski (http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110202.PDF)

[Docker]

I should hope not. You should be using your time to answer the many easily-answered questions you have, like so:

Q: Was there a lot of burning debris around or anything?

A: Not that we were able to hit. But there was a parking lot I think on the corner of Vesey. I'm not sure. I think it was the corner ov Vesey and West. I'm pretty sure, yeah. On the southwest corner of Vesey and West, there was a parking lot that was just roaring. Every car was transmitting to the next car. This was between the two collapses, I think. –Firefighter Kevin Monahan (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110016.PDF)

We went back to Vesey and West Street and started moving the ambulances back towards North End more, and then we started going northbound on North End towards Murray Street. We were moving the triage because we got a report of the parking lot in front of the building we were in, some of the cars were on fire, and we got reports of gas lines that were blown and the fire were starting to get to them. So we ended up moving the triage initially, and we just started heading northbound to Murray Street. –Paramedic Kevin Darnowski (http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110202.PDF)

Gravy I am not going to debate anything with someone whos idea of debating is calling people mentally ill.

[Gravy]

Gravy I am not going to debate anything with someone whos idea of debating is calling people mentally ill.1) You haven't been debating anything. You've been creating threads and then running from evidence.

2) My comments about TS are based entirely on experience. I encourage you to read all of TruthSeeker1234's posts, as I have done, before making up your mind. I don't know if he's mentally ill, but his posts have taken on a pattern very similar to Christophera's, and Christophera admits to having serious problems with reality. I've suggested that if TS1234 cannot keep himself from lying about 9/11, and if he continues to simply deny the evidence that we put before him, he may be in need of professional mental health care. I'm quite serious about that.

[Docker]

1) You haven't been debating anything. You've been creating threads and then running from evidence.

2) My comments about TS are based entirely on experience. I encourage you to read all of TruthSeeker1234's posts, as I have done, before making up your mind. I don't know if he's mentally ill, but his posts have taken on a pattern very similar to Christophera's, and Christophera admits to having serious problems with reality. I've suggested that if TS1234 cannot keep himself from lying about 9/11, and if he continues to simply deny the evidence that we put before him, he may be in need of professional mental health care. I'm quite serious about that.

No evidence has been presented to me since I joined this forum.

[gumboot]

No evidence has been presented to me since I joined this forum.


:covereyes

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

No evidence has been presented to me since I joined this forum.Let's see. I recall:

Giving you the link to a 106-page paper I wrote about WTC 7 that is filled with evidence. Remember that? You acknowledged it.

Giving you the links to my posts, plus pasting some quotes, to numerous eyewitness accounts of the north tower elevator shaft/basement explosion. Remember that? You acknowledged it.

Showing the section of the law authorizing the formation of the 9/11 Commission, to prove my point about how the members were appointed. Remember that? You acknowledged it.

Providing accounts from first responders of the fires in the West Street parking lot. Remember that? You quoted it above.

Now I have provided evidence that I have provided evidence, proving you wrong again.

When will you be providing evidence to back your claims, which you have repeatedly been asked to do?
Or are you just another troll?

[Docker]

Should I listen to Mechanical Engineer Dr Judy Wood, who has a civil engineering degree, or a bunch of googlers with no expertise?

Hmmm...difficult choice

[defaultdotxbe]

Should I listen to Mechanical Engineer Dr Judy Wood, who has a civil engineering degree, or a bunch of googlers with no expertise?

Hmmm...difficult choice
try this one, shoudl you listen to engineer judy wood, or every other engineer in the world?

if you listen to judy, why is she smarter than everyone else on the planet?

[gumboot]

Should I listen to Mechanical Engineer Dr Judy Wood, who has a civil engineering degree, or a bunch of googlers with no expertise?


Isn't her area of expertise dental mechanics or something?

-Gumboot

[Docker]

try this one, shoudl you listen to engineer judy wood, or every other engineer in the world?

if you listen to judy, why is she smarter than everyone else on the planet?

Well, by that argument, why should I listen to gravy? Is his research better than any other research?

Why do you say every engineer in the world? Jeff King at MIT thinks the towers were demolished. Please stop lying.

[Docker]

Isn't her area of expertise dental mechanics or something?

-Gumboot

Thats irrelevent. She had a civil engineering degree before she specialised in anything.

[gumboot]

Thats irrelevent. She had a civil engineering degree before she specialised in anything.


And other people who HAVE specialised in relevant areas disagree with Judy Wood's Keebler Elves metaphor. I'm going to value their opinion over hers because they know what they are talking about and she doesn't.

-Gumboot

[defaultdotxbe]

Well, by that argument, why should I listen to gravy? Is his research better than any other research?
no, thast why gravy cites sources, judy wood cites sci-fi movies and marketing gimmicks

Why do you say every engineer in the world? Jeff King at MIT thinks the towers were demolished. Please stop lying.

the only site i could find mentioning jeff king redirected me to a campaign site for some politician

perhaps you could link me to something? ive never seen him published anywhere

[gumboot]

Put it this way...

My friend did a BA (Bachelor of Arts) and took a couple of film papers where they watched films and then analysed them.

I went to a film school where I specialised in film production and cinematography. As well as study the history and theory of film, as well as watch films and analyse them, we also MADE films, using various formats, and then watched and analysed THOSE. This was ALL I did, for 3 years, full time. My friend had a couple of film lectures each week, a typical lecture lasting a couple of hours.

If we were to watch a film, and someone wanted to know what format the film was shot on, who would you ask, me? Or my friend? If we were in disagreement, whose opinion would you value more highly? Mine? Or theirs? If the director of photography of that film came along and gave a THIRD opinion how would this affect your determination of whom to trust?

I'm serious, please answer this hypothetical scenario.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Should I listen to Mechanical Engineer Dr Judy Wood, who has a civil engineering degree, or a bunch of googlers with no expertise?

Hmmm...difficult choiceAre you talking about dental engineer Judy Wood, who believes that "Star Wars Weapons" destroyed the towers, or about a Judy Wood who isn't batcrap crazy?

It's quite disturbing that you:

–Claim we have presented no evidence since you started posting, 200+ posts, and less than a day, ago.

–Choose to make decisions about the events of 9/11 based on a person's academic title, rather than on the facts they present. That's an extremely foolish position to take. I hope you will reconsider it. We'll be glad to discuss any of Judy Wood's contentions, if you're interested.

Would you like to start with her assertion that the WTC towers were constructed like, and should have fallen like, trees of the wooden, petrified, and snack varieties?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8790453dbf9d25888.jpg
Slide from Judy Wood's PowerPoint presentation on 9/11

[Docker]

no, thast why gravy cites sources, judy wood cites sci-fi movies and marketing gimmicks


the only site i could find mentioning jeff king redirected me to a campaign site for some politician

perhaps you could link me to something? ive never seen him published anywhere

Shows how good your research is. Here' a video featuring him:

http://www.jonhs.net/911/jeff_king.htm

[defaultdotxbe]

Shows how good your research is. Here' a video featuring him:

http://www.jonhs.net/911/jeff_king.htm
another video, i forgot all the CTers are incapable of getting published on anythign other than youtube

ETA: oh, no wonder, hes a farking ELECTRICAL engineer

might as well get a railroad engineer (http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/)on board too, lol

[Docker]

another video, i forgot all the CTers are incapable of getting published on anythign other than youtube

ETA: oh, no wonder, hes a farking ELECTRICAL engineer

might as well get a railroad engineer (http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/)on board too, lol

He is far more qualified than you, oh and he is now a doctor. Hardly the type to be a nutjob

[Gravy]

Shows how good your research is. Here' a video featuring him:

http://www.jonhs.net/911/jeff_king.htm
Sorry, we don't do video link dumping here. Especially when "Tesla weapon" promoters like Jeff King are concerned.

This is a discussion forum. Choose a claim in the video, tell us why you think it's correct, significant, supported by evidence, etc., and we can have a discussion.

Before you do that, I suggest, for the fourth time, that you finish with the other threads you've started. Jumping around like you're doing isn't conducive to learning. My two cents.

[Gravy]

He is far more qualified than you, oh and he is now a doctor. Hardly the type to be a nutjobOnce again, Docker, it isn't about "types." It's about facts. I've heard Jeff King state that he thinks the towers were brought down by "High-Energy Tesla Weapons."

Since he has no evidence to support that position, that makes him a nutjob.

If you disagree, present your evidence.

Steven Jones, Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer all have advanced degrees, Docker, and they all are idiots when it comes to the events of 9/11. Don't be impressed by degrees. They are, if not meaningless, taken with a high degree of skepticism here in the conspiracy theories forum.

[Docker]

Sorry, we don't do video link dumping here. Especially when "Tesla weapon" promoters like Jeff King are concerned.

This is a discussion forum. Choose a claim in the video, tell us why you think it's correct, significant, supported by evidence, etc., and we can have a discussion.

Before you do that, I suggest, for the fourth time, that you finish with the other threads you've started. Jumping around like you're doing isn't conducive to learning. My two cents.

The video was just to let your uninformed comrade know who this man was.

I may use these forums as I please, you are not an administrator.

[Docker]

Once again, Docker, it isn't about "types." It's about facts. I've heard Jeff King state that he thinks the towers were brought down by "High-Energy Tesla Weapons."

Since he has no evidence to support that position, that makes him a nutjob.

If you disagree, present your evidence.

Steven Jones, Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer all have advanced degrees, Docker, and they all are idiots when it comes to the events of 9/11. Don't be impressed by degrees. They are, if not meaningless, taken with a high degree of skepticism here in the conspiracy theories forum.

So, essentially, anyone who disagrees with you people is a nutjob, despite being Professors of various things. Yes that makes sense gravy.

Give me one reason why I should listen to the views of a tour guide about academics.

[defaultdotxbe]

The video was just to let your uninformed comrade know who this man was.

Спасибо, however i still fail to see how he is more qualified than anyone who worked on the NIST report

[Gravy]

So, essentially, anyone who disagrees with you people is a nutjob, despite being Professors of various things. Yes that makes sense gravy.

Give me one reason why I should listen to the views of a tour guide about academics.Will you read my last posts and make a real stab at understanding them? I'm saying the opposite of what you just stated.

Get it, Docker? It's not about blindly believing anyone! It's about facts and evidence!

How many times do you have to be told that?

[qarnos]

Don't be impressed by degrees. They are, if not meaningless, taken with a high degree of skepticism here in the conspiracy theories forum.

I don't think they are meaningless in themselves, but simplying stating X is right because they have a degree in Y is nothing but an appeal to authority and that is meaningless.

Getting an education does't make you smart - it makes you educated.

[defaultdotxbe]

So, essentially, anyone who disagrees with you people is a nutjob, despite being Professors of various things. Yes that makes sense gravy.

Give me one reason why I should listen to the views of a tour guide about academics.
someone who presents an alternative theory with no evidence to back it up is a nut

for example, if jeff king says tesla weapons were used, is able to show such weapons exist (outside of command and conquer: red alert) show a large power spike to the WTC right before the collapse, increased electro-magnetic interference, electrical burns on debris, and so forth he might have something

however, the fact that jeff king is an eletrical engineer doesnt mean electricity destroyed the WTC (if thats all the evidence needed, i submit, based on my expertise, that microsoft windows operating systems destroyed the towers)

[Docker]

Will you read my last posts and make a real stab at understanding them? I'm saying the opposite of what you just stated.

Get it, Docker? It's not about blindly believing anyone! It's about facts and evidence!

How many times do you have to be told that?

When did I say I blindly believed anyone?

[Gravy]

Give me one reason why I should listen to the views of a tour guide about academics.Should you take me seriously? Yes. I have an established track record of providing verifiable evidence about these issues. How can you tell? Check my posts in your threads. The academics you speak of have an established track record of getting pretty much everything wrong. Does that mean you should blindly believe us? Of course not. Believe the evidence.

[Skibum]

i submit, based on my expertise, that microsoft windows operating systems destroyed the towers)

Perhaps someone found a security flaw, introduced a thermite virus which spread throughout the buildings and caused a major crash.

I think you're onto something, wanna make a movie?

[gumboot]

however, the fact that jeff king is an eletrical engineer doesnt mean electricity destroyed the WTC (if thats all the evidence needed, i submit, based on my expertise, that microsoft windows operating systems destroyed the towers)


Nonsense. The 9/11 attacks were a movie special effect. And I have the expertise to prove it, so you have to believe me.

-Gumboot

[Mince]

Has anyone explained the mysterious burns of these cars? Some are "fused" and welded. In., one case the front half is burned and the back untouched.

"WMD at the WTC" claims its proof of thermonuclear devices, but I hasten to add I dont agree with that.

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image8.jpg

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image9.jpg
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image11.jpg



Pictures from Judy Woods new paper: http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/StarWarsBeam6.html




Has anyone explained these cars? Not actually. Because there is no actual explanation. (Well, there is, of course, but nobody knows it). Can you explain why you sometimes wake up facing the ceiling and other times wake up facing the wall? Unexplained, random things happen in chaos. There is no avoiding it, and, a lot of times, no explaning it. If you care to disagree and offer your expert scientific testimony, I'm all ears.

[uk_dave]

The purpose of peer review is to establish scientific consensus.

Scientists must publish their work in the appropriate venue for it to be considered and critiqued by others in the field.

The 911 scholars patently fail to do this.

Now even their universities are turning against them.

911 scholars are just hacks, in axactly the same way that the climate change sceptics are hacks and the ID enthusiasts are hacks.

Scientific consensus is what counts.

The consensus on 911 is that two passenger planes brought down the wtc towers and inflicted enough damage on wtc7 to cause catastrophic failure there also.

Docker may not like it, but that is reality.

[MRC_Hans]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg) Perhaps because they are constructed to withstand heat? Because they are dimensioned in such a way that the steel is sthick enough to support the structure even when heated?? Because the steel parts pretty much have no weight to support except their own? Because there is a stone lining to protect the metal from the hightst temperatures?

--- Are you serious? So you seriously feel that it is a good point that something constructed to withstand fire and is undamaged appears to withstand heat better than something that is not constructed to with stand heat and which is damaged?

And you are surprised people make jokes about what you say??

Hans

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg)

Sometimes they do:
Overheating can actually melt parts of the unit, cause damage and, perhaps, allow the fire to spread to surrounding areas. Also, be sure that fireplaces are covered with screens or doors to contain sparks, especially with types of wood that pop and spark. source (http://cahe.nmsu.edu/news/1999/010899_safety.html) But most of the time they do not, because the metal radiates the heat off quickly enough to the surrounding environment to prevent it.

[Mince]

Judy Wood does make a good point. Why dont these collapse all around the world?

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image185.jpg)


Hi. Nice strawman.

Do the temperatures in a cast iron stove even begin to approach the temperatures experienced by WTC 1 and 2 on 9/11/01? Do the cast iron stoves that you yourself presented as evidence have any mark of structural integrity compromise that WTC 1 and 2 had that day? Is this stove even made of the same material as WTC 1 and 2? How do you know? Cite please?


ARE YOU REALLY F*CKING COMPARING A CAST IRON WOOD STOVE TO BUILDING PERFORMANCE OF WTC 1 AND 2 AT OR ABOUT 10:30 AM ON 9/11/2001?


I apologize everyone. I (almost never) use all caps. But some people get me so frustrated with their obtuseness that I almost can't help myself.

[Mince]

Docker;

Seriously man. 175.45 posts per day. I highly recommend you chill out on the quantity and focus on the quality.

[Docker]

Sometimes they do:
source (http://cahe.nmsu.edu/news/1999/010899_safety.html) But most of the time they do not, because the metal radiates the heat off quickly enough to the surrounding environment to prevent it.

And why did the heat in the wtc not radiate to all the rest of the steel. There is no way that steel had the time to be compromised, even in the hottest part of the building. It is ludicrous.

[Gravy]

And why did the heat in the wtc not radiate to all the rest of the steel. There is no way that steel had the time to be compromised, even in the hottest part of the building. It is ludicrous.What was the mechanism of collapse, according to NIST, Docker?

[Mince]

And why did the heat in the wtc not radiate to all the rest of the steel. There is no way that steel had the time to be compromised, even in the hottest part of the building. It is ludicrous.

You suck, cuz all it took was nanoseconds for 1.5 ton aircraft, travelling approximately 500 MPH, to compromise the steel in both WTCs. Look, if you want to make a compelling argument, you're going to have to make a compelling argument. There is no way around it. I swear.

[beachnut]

And why did the heat in the wtc not radiate to all the rest of the steel. There is no way that steel had the time to be compromised, even in the hottest part of the building. It is ludicrous.

The original structural engineering Leslie E. Robertson design for an aircraft
impact, but it was a slow speed landing configuration, 7 to 10 times less
energy at impact than the 9/11 impacts!


The original structural engineering Leslie E. Robertson said it was the 10,000
gallons of fuel they failed to consider (besides the order of magnitude larger
crash). Based on the design of the WTC, it is amazing the towers remained
standing as long as they did, surviving a impact blast 10 times greater than
design.


Leslie E. Robertson is a structural engineer who has designed hundreds of
buildings around the world including the World Trade Center.


Leslie E. Robertson, , said:
"The twin towers of the World Trade Center were designed to resist safely the
impacting by the largest aircraft of that time...the intercontinental version
of the Boeing 707. In no small measure because of the high level of
competence of the men and women of LERA, each of the towers resisted the
impact of an aircraft larger than the 707. Yes, fire brought down the towers,
but the structural integrity created by the engineers of LERA allowed perhaps
thousands of persons to evacuate the buildings prior to the fire-induced
collapse." http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/LesRobertson.html (http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/LesRobertson.html)


Leslie E. Robertson, , said: on being hit by a commercial jet -
" It appears that about 25,000 people safely exited the buildings, almost all
of them from below the impact floors; almost everyone above the impact floors
perished, either from the impact and fire or from the subsequent collapse. The
structures of the buildings were heroic in some ways but less so in others.
The buildings survived the impact of the Boeing 767 aircraft, an impact very
much greater than had been contemplated in our design (a slow-flying Boeing
707 lost in the fog and seeking a landing field). Therefore, the robustness of
the towers was exemplary. At the same time, the fires raging in the inner
reaches of the buildings undermined their strength. In time, the unimaginable
happened . . . wounded by the impact of the aircraft and bleeding from the
fires, both of the towers of the World Trade Center collapsed."

http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB?OpenDocument (http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB?OpenDocument)


Leslie E. Robertson, , said: more on design for jet impact –
" The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear
industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It
was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK
or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects
of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that
circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to
control the effects of such fires."

http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB?OpenDocument (http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB?OpenDocument)

More on Robertson -

http://interactive.wsj.com/fr/emailthis/retrieve.cgi?d=SB1002665463810757240.djm (http://interactive.wsj.com/fr/emailthis/retrieve.cgi?d=SB1002665463810757240.djm)

http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/LERPresentation.htm (http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/LERPresentation.htm)

Energy junk thrown in for free, the following are approximate energy;;; You can calculate the energy yourself – 707 impact design WTC was 386,215,069
joules (185 pounds of TNT) – WTC flight 11 impact 2,743,309,041 joules (1,311
pounds of TNT) - Flight 175 impacts 4,322,978,167 joules (2066 pounds of
TNT) – B-25 at Empire State Building impact 84,967,480 joules (41 pounds of
TNT)

A quick review
The original structural engineering Leslie E. Robertson said; -design of WTC included an impact only of a "slow-flying Boeing 707."

-"wounded by the impact of the aircraft and bleeding from the fires, both of
the towers of the World Trade Center collapsed"



darn the real expert says what you see is what you get

five years and still the truth is what we saw

[Mince]

Love the sig, Docker. BTW, is the Danny Jowenko in your sig the same Danny Jowenko who offered this analysis of the collapse of WTCs 1 and 2?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkZMQAC95kI

[beachnut]

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.

the last car, the police car was burned, that is why the rubber tires are gone, that is why the paint is ash,

just burnt

Judy Woods can not explain momentum to save your life

she uses balls on stings to show momentum, but she has not a clue; her specialty is teeth, and she thinks the WTC should be like her balls bouncing around in space, she thinks the WTC is like a tree, with cookies in it!

Like Alex Jones she defies truth and only has an agenda. She and Morgan somebody attacked Dr Thermite Jones's paper. It is funny seeing them fight, truth against truth

any way, you have posted cars that caught fire, and Judy has made a connections to her balls, rattling in her head, hopefully not in yours

you could just ignore Judy Woods work and improve your IQ by many points

burnt cars

[beachnut]

Love the sig, Docker. BTW, is the Danny Jowenko in your sig the same Danny Jowenko who offered this analysis of the collapse of WTCs 1 and 2?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkZMQAC95kI

Jowenko chews up loose change and spits out every word they say as junk!

good video

[beachnut]

He is far more qualified than you, oh and he is now a doctor. Hardly the type to be a nutjob

Have to add him to the short list of engineers who are nut jobs.

the truth movement only has .00067 percent of all engineers in the country

that leaves a million plus who you can get the real truth from when you stop following Alex Jones and Judy Woods.

[beachnut]

Has anyone explained the mysterious burns of these cars? Some are "fused" and welded. In., one case the front half is burned and the back untouched.

"WMD at the WTC" claims its proof of thermonuclear devices, but I hasten to add I dont agree with that.




Judy Woods new paper: http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/StarWarsBeam6.html


her conclusions are correct right now, as of this second

but the photos you have are burnt cars

her and her nutty friend are both certified nuts

check out their new title "The WTC Bathtub and the Star Wars Beam Weapon"

wow

burnt car photos at random cites = starwarsbeam weapon

yes judy the jacket is good put it back on

back to your burnt car photos

are you sure you want to post Judy Woods junk?

[njslim]

As someone who has extinguished numerouse vehicle fires - can tell you
some things. All the vehicles are burned from above, some show signs of
the interior being involved. The police car has been clearly struck from
above by a heavy object. None of the vehicles show the engine compartment
or tires being involved. Vehicles fire normally result from problems in
engine compartment such fires usually consume the entire vehicle and
require large amounts (1000 gal) of water to extinguish. Another cause
is electricial - most cars have large runs of wiring to power various options
(power windows, seats, heaters, etc) Electricial fires normally involve the
interior and often self extinguish. Since many of the vehicles show only
exterior damage from the top down can conclude they were struck by
burning debris from above.

Or since if case of Judy Woods - maybe elves did it?

[eeyore1954]

He is an expert, I have no reason to disbelieve him.

NIST dont know why 7 collapsed.

So do you believe him on tower 1 and 2?

[eeyore1954]

I should hope not. You should be using your time to answer the many easily-answered questions you have, like so:

Q: Was there a lot of burning debris around or anything?

A: Not that we were able to hit. But there was a parking lot I think on the corner of Vesey. I'm not sure. I think it was the corner ov Vesey and West. I'm pretty sure, yeah. On the southwest corner of Vesey and West, there was a parking lot that was just roaring. Every car was transmitting to the next car. This was between the two collapses, I think. –Firefighter Kevin Monahan (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110016.PDF)

We went back to Vesey and West Street and started moving the ambulances back towards North End more, and then we started going northbound on North End towards Murray Street. We were moving the triage because we got a report of the parking lot in front of the building we were in, some of the cars were on fire, and we got reports of gas lines that were blown and the fire were starting to get to them. So we ended up moving the triage initially, and we just started heading northbound to Murray Street. –Paramedic Kevin Darnowski (http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110202.PDF)



Docker you did an excellent job of avoiding addressing this post!!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

And why did the heat in the wtc not radiate to all the rest of the steel. There is no way that steel had the time to be compromised, even in the hottest part of the building. It is ludicrous.

Please show your work, or reference, that substantiates the above bolded part.

[kookbreaker]

And why did the heat in the wtc not radiate to all the rest of the steel.

Because while steel is a decent conductor of heat, it is not magic. Eventually the amount of energy transmitted through a column will not be anywhere near enough comparied to the energy being brought in via the fire.

Your iron stove has the advantage of being surrounded on all sides by cooling air.


There is no way that steel had the time to be compromised, even in the hottest part of the building. It is ludicrous.

And your engineering/fire analysis/ degree is what exactly?

[VespaGuy]

Ignore this post. Just trying out my new avatar.

[Dog Town]

Ignore this post. Just trying out my new avatar.

I think PD'oh likes this one better...
3748

He looks like, he needs more fiber in his diet!

[realitybites]

Dr Sunder, Head of official NIST report on Building 7 says:

"We are studying the horizontal movement East to West,internal to the structure, on the fifth to senenth floors, but truthfully, I don't really know. We've had trouble getting a handle on building No. 7"
(New York Magazine, March 27th 2006)
Like the dawning of crisp October morning, this thought just hit me....

Why on Earth would a highly paid government shill like Dr. Sunder, Head of official NIST report on Building 7, openly admit that he honestly doesn't know why that building came down? Isn't NIST just parroting the governments version of things?

I thought highly paid government shills were supposed to continue to spread disinformation and lies? Why do these conspirators keep blowing their cover?

Gah... so hard to find good mass-murderers these days.

[CurtC]

Your iron stove has the advantage of being surrounded on all sides by cooling air.
And even more so than the cooling air, it has a large surface area to radiate the heat away. Radiation would happen even if the oven were surrounded by a vaccuum.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

And even more so than the cooling air, it has a large surface area to radiate the heat away. Radiation would happen even if the oven were surrounded by a vaccuum.

Same radiant heat loss yes, but wouldn't there be less convection occurring?

[uk_dave]

Same radiant heat loss yes, but wouldn't there be less convection occurring?

Convection doesn't happen in a vaccum as there is no medium to convey the heat.
:crowded:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Convection doesn't happen in a vaccum as there is no medium to convey the heat.
:crowded:

:p less can imply none :p

[Horatius]

Your iron stove has the advantage of being surrounded on all sides by cooling air.

Not to mention a well-designed draft of air up the flue, which carries off a lot of hot gasses, and thus energy that would otherwise be transferred to the stove body.

[imagineNoReligion]

Well the point is that these cars were not near the towers, they werent hit by anything and didn't catch fire.

The parking lot was very close to the WTC. If you look at the NW corner of the site, it's just across the hi-way. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10280&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=40.71272,-74.013884&spn=0.005481,0.013475&t=k&om=1

As far as a thermonuclear explosion is concerned, I never experienced it, and I live 4 blocks away from the WTC. The only events that I remember are the sound of the initial aircraft impacts and then the collapse of both buildings.

[TruthSeeker1234]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine? Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine? Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.

There is insufficient information in just pictures to make an educated guess. We do not know the vehicles' locations at the time they were damaged, if the pictures were taken at those locations, if any debris was removed from the vehicles prior to the pictures being taken, etc

[W6102LA]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine? Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.

Send the pic's to the NYFD and get an expert opinion :)

[firecoins]

:confused: Some of those pictures in post 1 don't look like they are anywhere near ground zero. I mean like they are not even in the right vicinity. The police car looks to me to be on the East River under the FDR overpass. Are we sure that these pictures have anything to do with 9/11?

[DavidJames]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine? Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.You are missing the most amazing part. There were people inside those cars and they aren't there now! Where did they go? What technology would make them completely disappear without any blood, torn clothing, nothing, they simply vanished.

Please JREFs tell me what you imagine happened to those people.

[Donal]

You are missing the most amazing part. There were people inside those cars and they aren't there now! Where did they go? What technology would make them completely disappear without any blood, torn clothing, nothing, they simply vanished.

Please JREFs tell me what you imagine happened to those people.

A combination hydrogen/nuetron bomb.

[firecoins]

You are missing the most amazing part. There were people inside those cars and they aren't there now! Where did they go? What technology would make them completely disappear without any blood, torn clothing, nothing, they simply vanished.

Please JREFs tell me what you imagine happened to those people.
No one was in those cars. This is what I am talking about with people not from NYC. That was a picture of cars in a NYC parking lot.

The emergency vehicles were empty because the responders were in working. Something about a plane crash or terrorist attack or something.

[realitybites]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine? Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.
I'm not sure which is more amusing. You arguing these points, you acting as though they're evidence of anything, or your use of the phrase "black goo".

Hmmm....

Upon deep introspection, I've decided they are equally amusing.

You ever think that maybe the burned tire that used to be on that cop car didn't grow legs and follow it when it was moved to the spot where the picture was taken?

[Donal]

By the way, you can see the UN building in the background and the FDR Drive above that squad car. I'd guess that is somewhere between 34 and 71 Street. Nowhere near Ground Zero.

[firecoins]

By the way, you can see the UN building in the background and the FDR Drive above that squad car. I'd guess that is somewhere between 34 and 71 Street. Nowhere near Ground Zero.
Yeah, there is no way that is anywhere near ground zero. There is a street sign behind the cop car, can't quite make it out but could be 70 something. I was thinking 90 something. Its
definitely under the FDR overpass.

[Donal]

I take it back ,thats not the UN building. You can , however several of the high rise buildings along MidTown East.

the 90s may be right.

Can anyone blow up the street sign in the last pic? Also, the way those cars are parked on the otherside and the ESU truck make me thing there is a precinct right there.

[DavidJames]

Yeah, there is no way that is anywhere near ground zero. There is a street sign behind the cop car, cam't quite make it ou but could be 70 something. I was thinking 90 something. Its definatly under the FDR overpass.
That makes this even more suspicious - what evil device can both pulverize the entire WTC into dust and shredded steel and "act selectively on different materials" of cars blocks away.

BrilliantThinker1234 - you've really raised some provocative questions and like a good citizen, demanding (anonymously on an Internet forum) answers.

Brave Sir BrilliantThinker1234.

[beachnut]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine? Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.

only the front burned?

yes only the front burned. on time just my left armed burned, it turned black within a few days, the right arm did not burn, it was normal.

These are real easy questions, front burned back did not burn.

Just the engine gasoline burned and the tires, but the rest of the car did not burn.

My brother and I tried to start a car dripping gasoline into the carb, it started on fire, just the front! Only the front burned, only the front had fire damage!

[realitybites]

That makes this even more suspicious - what evil device can both pulverize the entire WTC into dust and shredded steel and "act selectively on different materials" of cars blocks away.

BrilliantThinker1234 - you've really raised some provocative questions and like a good citizen, demanding (anonymously on an Internet forum) answers.

Braver Sir BrilliantThinker1234.
Maybe it wasn't blocks away. Maybe the device teleports objects as it selectively chars them.

.... Maybe the towers are really up in Canada somewhere.

[beachnut]

There is insufficient information in just pictures to make an educated guess. We do not know the vehicles' locations at the time they were damaged, if the pictures were taken at those locations, if any debris was removed from the vehicles prior to the pictures being taken, etc

logic and reason

you are cheating

[firecoins]

This cop car is most likely on the Upper East Side, either in the 70s or 90's by the FDR and is miles away. If this picture was taken on 9/11/01, and I am in no way sure of that, it had nothing to do with the
collapse of the twin towers or #7.

[Donal]

We really have to know more about those pictures before we can say anything for sure.

[beachnut]

Ignore this post. Just trying out my new avatar.

pull your own finger, I will not fall for the gas explosion ploy

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

That makes this even more suspicious - what evil device can both pulverize the entire WTC into dust and shredded steel and "act selectively on different materials" of cars blocks away.

BrilliantThinker1234 - you've really raised some provocative questions and like a good citizen, demanding (anonymously on an Internet forum) answers.

Brave Sir BrilliantThinker1234.

Does this image help the resident New Yorkers?
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image161.jpg

[alexg]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine? Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.

I explained this already: Dr. Evil's arm was jostled while he was directing the pulvobeam at the towers and the beam accidently hit the cars for a moment. This also explains why he left some of the WTC core standing.

[Donal]

Looks like Ichan Stadium in the background, but thats only a guess.

No, its Yankee Stadium. If it was Ichan, you'd see more bridges.

Anyway, this puts the picture above 90 Street. Maybe in the Harlem area, since we can't see the Triboro Bridge.

[firecoins]

Does this image help the resident New Yorkers?
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image161.jpg
They are under the FDR overpass. Now if they were destroyed by the collpase, they were towed there. The towing a possiblilty but they were not destroyed under the FDR with no damage to the FDR. I can say with 100% certainty that the FDR was too far for the collpase to damage it. With out more info, I can't see these images proving much.

[DavidJames]

Maybe it wasn't blocks away. Maybe the device teleports objects as it selectively chars them.

.... Maybe the towers are really up in Canada somewhere.Finally, a JREFer sheeple who's thinking outside the pen.

Recall a week or so ago about scientists successfully "transporting" matter in Europe. Okay so it was something really really tiny and it went about an inch. But you also may recall the brilliant comment by some brave soul (at LC I believe) who argued quite convincingly that the U.S. military is technologically 50 years ahead of the rest of us. Add 1 plus 1 and you get 'C', I think you're on to something rb, keep up the research and keep your head low, I wouldn't want any of those tractor beams to suck you out of this world into the new world, if you get my drift.

[firecoins]

Looks like Ichan Stadium in the background, but thats only a guess.
I am not sure about that but that is the FDR the cars are under. It looks like Brooklyn in the backround which means the cars are in lower Manhattan.

[kookbreaker]

You are missing the most amazing part. There were people inside those cars and they aren't there now! Where did they go? What technology would make them completely disappear without any blood, torn clothing, nothing, they simply vanished.

Please JREFs tell me what you imagine happened to those people.

Freejackers. There's no other explanation.

[T.A.M.]

Team Leaders for the NIST WTC Study:

Dr. H.S. Lew – Senior Research Engineer. PhD Civil Engineering, BS in Architectural Engineering. ASCE Fellow.
With NIST: Structural Engineering, Earthquake Engineering, Building and Fire Research.
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profiles.asp?lastname=Lew
(his full profile)

Richard W. Bukowski – Senior Research Engineer. BSc Electrical Engineering.
With NIST: Co-ordinator of Building and Fire Research Lab.
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...stname=bukowski
(his full profile)

Dr. Fahim H. Sadek – PhD Mechanical Engineering SMU
With NIST: Research Structural Engineer
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...?lastname=sadek
(his full profile)

Dr. Frank W. Gayle – PhD Metallurgy MIT, MSc Materials Science, BSc Civil Engineering.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pi/wtc_profiles.asp?lastname=gayle
(his full profile)

Dr. David D. Evans – PhD in Engineering (Fire protection)


Dr. William Grosshandler – PhD Mechanical Engineering UC Berkley
With NIST: Head of Building and Fire Research
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...me=grosshandler
(his full profile)

Dr. Richard G. Gann – PhD Physical Chemistry MIT
With NIST: Senior Research Scientist – Integrated Performance Assessment
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...p?lastname=gann
(his full profile)

Dr. John L. Gross – PhD Structural Engineering, BSc/MSc Civil Engineering Cornell
With NIST: Research Engineer – Materials and Construction Research Division
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...?lastname=gross
(his full profile)

Dr. Therese P. McAllister – PhD Structural Engineering John Hopkins
With NIST: Senior Structural Engineer.
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...name=mcallister
(her full profile)

Jason D. Averill – MSc Structural Engineering (working on PhD) John Hopkins
With NIST: Research Engineer
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...astname=averill
(his full profile)

J. Randall Lawson – BA, BSc Industrial Education, AA Computer Science and Math
With NIST: General Physical Scientist
http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/profiles/profile...lastname=lawson
(his full profile)


TAM

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Here's where I am estimating the cars' location to be. The thumbtack is the cars. WTC and Yankee are both marked as well.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/cars_here1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/cars_here2.jpg

[realitybites]

Ugh, this is embarassing, but I wanted to be like the CTer and use Google Earth for a little bit.

Based off the shape of the buildings in the background, I'm pretty sure that the one squad car is under the FDR as many have said, just "north" of the Manhattan bridge.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1522/squadcarmf2.jpg

The "squad car" thumb-tack is an obvious approximation.

[Belz...]

I said thermonuclear bombs was garbage. I think what happened to these cars is odd.

Odd ? Why ?

[Doubt]

[B]Has anyone explained the mysterious burns of these cars? Some are "fused" and welded. In., one case the front half is burned and the back untouched.

"WMD at the WTC" claims its proof of thermonuclear devices, but I hasten to add I dont agree with that.



Raging fires and glowing hot metal have properties that defy experience for the average person. Common experience does not tell the average person what happens when things get very hot. Most people have little experience with anything hotter than a campfire.

I saw a bunch of half burned cars once. I did not see the event that caused it first hand, since I was about a mile away at that time. The cars were in the parking lot of a steel mill that I used to work at.

One day a liquid oxygen line perforated at an elbow joint in the pipe. The outside of the elbow was facing the parking lot where these cars were. The oxygen escaping the line rushed out and expanded at high velocity, causing the air, now much richer in oxygen, to heat up. In a short period of time the cars closest to the jet of oxygen acquired enough heat to explode one at a time. This was not a case of casual burning taking place. All of the gas in the cars was consumed at once. Parts of the cars that face away from the tank were not fully burned. Paint survived where the flash and residual fire did not reach. No mini nukes required.

Also, having worked in a steel mill I have a fair amount of experience with hot steel. Radiant heat is strange stuff. I remember standing on a catwalk some distance (80 feet would be a guess) from a slab of steel that was glowing bright orange. I could feel the moisture escaping from my face and my skin tightening. Not burning, but not a pleasant feeling either. But all I had to do was put up my hands and my face felt normal. My hands did not feel all that bad but I could feel them warming. Almost anything can block radiant heat. Just so long as the thing used to block the heat is not overly conductive and can aborb the energy.

Now I am back to working in the heat-treat industry. Among other things, we build vacuum furnaces. Common experience and vacuum are two more things that defy experience and expectations of the average person.

[aggle-rithm]

I was just thinking how much it would have sucked to have your house catch fire on 9/11 in New York. With hundreds of firefighters dead and the rest trying to stop skyscrapers from falling on them, I doubt a small fire would have been very high on their list of priorities.

Maybe that's what happened in that parking lot. One car caught fire, and there was no one to put it out.

[firecoins]

You know I am looked at the 2nd picture of the cop car again. I am 100% positive I see the beginnings of the Queensboro bridge so it must be in the 70's.

[firecoins]

I was just thinking how much it would have sucked to have your house catch fire on 9/11 in New York. With hundreds of firefighters dead and the rest trying to stop skyscrapers from falling on them, I doubt a small fire would have been very high on their list of priorities.

Maybe that's what happened in that parking lot. One car caught fire, and there was no one to put it out.
the 911 system was overloaded, probably busy from volume. If you got through you could not get anyone.

[chipmunk stew]

Can you JREFers explain how these crushed and burned cars ended up on top of a crushed and burned bus???

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_5122453e4d6ebbee1.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2198)

I can't think of any possible explanation for this anomaly. :con2:
Am I just retarded? :con2:

[firecoins]

I am positive the parking lot was near ground zero on 9/11. It is NOT proof of a thermonuclear device or any other odd thing.

[firecoins]

edited

[aggle-rithm]

I am positive the parking lot was near ground zero on 9/11. It is NOT proof of a thermonuclear device or any other odd thing.

But "thermonuclear" sounds so cool! Even better than "pyroclastic"!

[firecoins]

Can you JREFers explain how these crushed and burned cars ended up on top of a crushed and burned bus???

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_5122453e4d6ebbee1.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2198)

I can't think of any possible explanation for this anomaly. :con2:
Am I just retarded? :con2:
considering this picture was taken maybe days after 9/11, the air & road has been cleared, how do you know thos cars were not place by heavy machinery on top of the bus?

[defaultdotxbe]

You know I am looked at the 2nd picture of the cop car again. I am 100% positive I see the beginnings of the Queensboro bridge so it must be in the 70's.
im not sure if your joking or not but that is clearly a late model car, so the timeframe is right

i believe gravy said the car had been moved from where it was near the WTC

[aggle-rithm]

Can you JREFers explain how these crushed and burned cars ended up on top of a crushed and burned bus???

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_5122453e4d6ebbee1.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2198)

I can't think of any possible explanation for this anomaly. :con2:
Am I just retarded? :con2:


You're not retarded. I can personally tell by looking at this photograph that it is actual proof that George Bush and Dick Cheney, working under cover of darkness, wired the twin towers with thermite and, since thermite does absolutely no good unless you're trying to weld the girders together, explosives.

It doesn't matter that this wreckage is actually in Detroit. Bush didit, dangit!!!

[chipmunk stew]

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.
A top secret government hydrocarbophobic ferrophilic Combustobeam Weapon.

[chipmunk stew]

considering this picture was taken maybe days after 9/11, the air & road has been cleared, how do you know thos cars were not place by heavy machinery on top of the bus?
:con2: Having ignored your answer, I will point out this anomaly again on another thread in a few days and hope you don't notice. :con2:

[firecoins]

im not sure if your joking or not but that is clearly a late model car, so the timeframe is right

i believe gravy said the car had been moved from where it was near the WTC
your not from New York are you?
70's as in street numbers, not in years. The car is located with in sight of the Quessnboro bridge hence the car is locaterd above 61st street.

read what I wrote again.
You know I am looked at the 2nd picture of the cop car again. I am 100% positive I see the beginnings of the Queensboro bridge so it must be in the 70's.

[realitybites]

You know I am looked at the 2nd picture of the cop car again. I am 100% positive I see the beginnings of the Queensboro bridge so it must be in the 70's.
I think it's further south. I don't see why they would tow a car all the way from lower Manhattan up to the UES.

Either way, that picture was taken no where near Ground Zero.

[imagineNoReligion]

I realize my experience is anecdotal, but to those who would believe in an thermonuclear explosion, are they really saying that it could not be heard 4 blocks away?

Putting my experience aside, there are many videos out there that show nothing of this explosion either.

[firecoins]

I think it's further south. I don't see why they would tow a car all the way from lower Manhattan up to the UES.

Either way, that picture was taken no where near Ground Zero.
I see what appears to be an East River bridge. Perhaps it was the Delancey street, Manhattan or Brooklyn bridges. However the buildings seem like the Upper East side and not like the Lower East Side. The street sign makes me believe further we are looking at the Upper East Side in this specific picture.

[defaultdotxbe]

your not from New York are you?
70's as in street numbers, not in years. The car is located with in sight of the Quessnboro bridge hence the car is locaterd above 61st street.

read what I wrote again.
i stand corrected, lol

[firecoins]

i stand corrected, lol
thank you.:cool:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I think it's further south. I don't see why they would tow a car all the way from lower Manhattan up to the UES.

Either way, that picture was taken no where near Ground Zero.

Maybe they were not damaged at WTC. :shrug:

[celestrin]

A couple of pics to go with Gravy's firemen quotes. CTers will probably whine that these show the northwest corner of Vesey&West, while the fireman was pretty sure it was southwest. If picture time stamps are relatively correct, the car park fire started within 10-15 minutes after the WTC1 collapse. I've got more pics from this series, but can't seem to find them online anymore.

First signs of black smoke from the car park after the dust cleared. (Time stamp 10:40:29, other pics show the start of collapse @ 10:27:31)
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/8650/dsc00050hz3.th.jpg (http://img431.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00050hz3.jpg)

First sight of fire. (TS 10:43:46)
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/1971/dsc00054df9.th.jpg (http://img431.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00054df9.jpg)

Fire up close. (TS 11:41:42)
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/9011/dsc00105gh0.th.jpg (http://img431.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00105gh0.jpg)

Firemen on the job. (TS 11:42:03)
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/6033/dsc00108rh1.th.jpg (http://img431.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00108rh1.jpg)

I don't have much more to add about the billiard balls-Keebler elfs-Death Star beam lady's "theory", but it doesn't sound too surprising to have car fires in 9/11 environment, even without burning debris falling on them. There were probably lots of cars with running engines around, there was lots of dust clogging up their filters and radiators, causing engines to overheat. There were also probably running cars with overheating catalsyt converters and there definitely was lots of paper around to start a fire.

Can't say much about the half burned police cars, except that the elevated highway looks like South Street, just a bit to the East of the Manhattan Bridge to me. 40deg 42' 36"N, 73deg 59' 28"W. The red building in the background is the powerplant in Brooklyn with large chimneys, while the blue building are some, I guess, hangars at the NY Harbour. But keep in mind that the closest I've ever been to NY is about 4000 miles :)
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7360/burnedcarsii5.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=burnedcarsii5.jpg)

But OTOH, look, I found another half burned car.
http://www.nbc6.net/2006/0911/9824119_480X360.jpg
http://www.nbc6.net/news/9824136/detail.html?rss=ami&psp=news

It all makes sense now. How did we not see it before? 9/11 perps must be Jesse "The Body" Ventura, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper, Jake "The Snake" Roberts, "Macho Man" Randy Savage, Andre "The Giant" and "Ravishing" Rick Rude! The Real American hero Hogan must've been hot on their trail and they dusted off the old Death Star Beam Machine and decided to pay him a little visit. I mean, pfff, how could a wrestler become a governor without threatening every citizen with a DSBM. Without a DSBM, that's just as ludicrous as, say, a bodybuilder becoming a head of state, or, say, an actor a head of nation. That's impossible.

[defaultdotxbe]

It all makes sense now. How did we not see it before? 9/11 perps must be Jesse "The Body" Ventura, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper, Jake "The Snake" Roberts, "Macho Man" Randy Savage, Andre "The Giant" and "Ravishing" Rick Rude! The Real American hero Hogan must've been hot on their trail and they dusted off the old Death Star Beam Machine and decided to pay him a little visit. I mean, pfff, how could a wrestler become a governor without threatening every citizen with a DSBM. Without a DSBM, that's just as ludicrous as, say, a bodybuilder becoming a head of state, or, say, an actor a head of nation. That's impossible.
you forget hogans well-documentaed conenction to the NWO
http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/pictures/50.jpg

[firecoins]

Can't say much about the half burned police cars, except that the elevated highway looks like South Street, just a bit to the East of the Manhattan Bridge to me. 40deg 42' 36"N, 73deg 59' 28"W. The red building in the background is the powerplant in Brooklyn with large chimneys, while the blue building are some, I guess, hangars at the NY Harbour. But keep in mind that the closest I've ever been to NY is about 4000 miles :)
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7360/burnedcarsii5.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=burnedcarsii5.jpg)
.
I am positive the pd car is under the FDR.

[luvhumility]

Table 3:
Lethality of Weapons
Weapon
Yield
(metric tons HE)

Lethal area (km2)c
1-ton high explosive
1.0

~10-3
MTF device (0.5-2.5t)a
~1

~10-3 (blast)
0.03-0.8 (neutrons)b
300 kg Sarin warhead on Scud
-

0.22
Hiroshima-type bomb
~15,000

~7
Source: Jones and von Hippel 1998, Table 3, p. 15.

a. Fusion yield (0.2-2.2t) plus yield from high explosive (0.3t) = 0.5-2.5t
b. 4.5 Gray dose
c. The area given is that of a circle centered at ground zero for which, for uniform population density, the number of people surviving within would be equal to the number killed outside.

[realitybites]

I am positive the pd car is under the FDR.
The FDR is elevated in that part of town as well.

[firecoins]

yes but isnt the FDR west of a park on the Lower East Side?

The car is apart of the 5th precinct. Evidence that it is ver vell down town and if so, I would be wrong about it being in the 70's
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/pro005.html

Other non damaged police vehicles are in the picture indicatin a police station is nearby.

I think the 5th Precinct is right under the Delancy street bridge. I park there every week. It is possible for it to be under the FDR near by.

[realitybites]

yes but isnt the FDR west of a park on the Lower East Side?

The car is apart of the 5th precinct. Evidence that it is ver vell down town and if so, I would be wrong about it being in the 70's
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/pro005.html

Other non damaged police vehicles are in the picture indicatin a police station is nearby.

I think the 5th Precinct is right under the Delancy street bridge. I park there every week. It is possible for it to be under the FDR near by.
It runs west of a park around the Williamsburg Bridge. Further south however, it runs right along the edge of Manhattan.

[Docker]

Because while steel is a decent conductor of heat, it is not magic. Eventually the amount of energy transmitted through a column will not be anywhere near enough comparied to the energy being brought in via the fire.

Your iron stove has the advantage of being surrounded on all sides by cooling air.



And your engineering/fire analysis/ degree is what exactly?

Have you seen the ridiculous tests done by NIST on the fireproofing? A shotgun fired at a square of steel. How scientific.

[firecoins]

Don't ask my why I refer to the Williamsburg bridge as the Delancey Street brigde! Just because the Delancey street runs on to it doesn't mean that its name! :confused:

[chipmunk stew]

Have you seen the ridiculous tests done by NIST on the fireproofing? A shotgun fired at a square of steel. How scientific.
And your engineering/fire analysis/ degree is what exactly?
And given your credentials, how would you have set up the test?

[realitybites]

Have you seen the ridiculous tests done by NIST on the fireproofing? A shotgun fired at a square of steel. How scientific.
Would you prefer they fly a plane into a building to test the resilience of the fire-proofing?

And didn't you start this thread to express your bewilderment over burned cars? Please comment on the myriad explanations given to you.

[firecoins]

Have you seen the ridiculous tests done by NIST on the fireproofing? A shotgun fired at a square of steel. How scientific.

raming a 767 at 490 or 590 mph was too expensive I guess.

[Docker]

And given your credentials, how would you have set up the test?

I wouldn't. Where is your evidence that the two air planes turned into shotgun pellets and removed the fireproofing?

[Garb]

I wouldn't. Where is your evidence that the two air planes turned into shotgun pellets and removed the fireproofing?

Obviously they had similar characteristics (were you assuming they used the same scale?) or they wouldn't have done it.

[luvhumility]

There would have been a significantly higher ground zero lethal area if ANY thermonuclear (TND) was used. Fairly simple math...

On the "burned" cars, yes, cars next too/below falling + burning debris tend to burn and then cascade burn as all the fuel in each car burns/fuel tanks rupture/melt and more fuel flows under other cars/trucks etc... very simple explination.

lh p.s. let's start a thread about electric cars! they are not so "messy"!

[Docker]

raming a 767 at 490 or 590 mph was too expensive I guess.

are you claiming we should accept the results of a test involving a plywood box, a flat square of stee and 18 shot gun blasts? None of which have anything to do with the world trade center.

[Docker]

Obviously they had similar characteristics (were you assuming they used the same scale?) or they wouldn't have done it.

Name one similer characteristic. The steel wasn't square, it wasn't in a plywood box and mohammed atta didn't have a shotgun. It's junk science, used because they haven't got a clue why the builings collapsed

[realitybites]

I wouldn't. Where is your evidence that the two air planes turned into shotgun pellets and removed the fireproofing?
So in order to satisfy your strict guidlelines for accurate reconstruction, the towers should've been rebuilt and fireproofed, NIST should've gotten a hold of Acme's Commercial Airline Zoom-Zoom Remote Control from Cheney's office, and just recreated the entire event.

.... Sounds reasonable.

[Garb]

Docker, http://wtc.nist.gov/WTC_Conf_Sep13-15/session6/6Gross2.pdf is that what fireproofing you are talking about?

[Garb]

Name one similer characteristic. The steel wasn't square, it wasn't in a plywood box and mohammed atta didn't have a shotgun. It's junk science, used because they haven't got a clue why the builings collapsed

Weren't they testing the fireproofing and it's ability to stay "fireproof" to a certain force?

[realitybites]

I wouldn't. Where is your evidence that the two air planes turned into shotgun pellets and removed the fireproofing?
How dense are you? They were experimenting to estimate the amount of force that would be required to remove the fireproofing from the steel.

Shotgun pellets against a square of steel is a scaled down version of 767 debris traveling at 500+ miles per hour through a skyscraper.

[chipmunk stew]

I wouldn't. Where is your evidence that the two air planes turned into shotgun pellets and removed the fireproofing?
You wouldn't set up a test to see what affect the planes' impacts had on the fireproofing? That's scientific negligence!

You can use whatever you like--doesn't have to be a shotgun. How would you set it up?

[Docker]

Docker, http://wtc.nist.gov/WTC_Conf_Sep13-15/session6/6Gross2.pdf is that what fireproofing you are talking about?

Thanks for linking to something in which NIST admits it couldn't get a floor assembly to collapse, even after 2 hours of exposure.

[Garb]

How dense are you? They were experimenting to estimate the amount of force that would be required to remove the fireproofing from the steel.

Shotgun pellets against a square of steel is a scaled down version of 767 debris traveling at 500+ miles per hour through a skyscraper.

Beat you to it. :D

[firecoins]

are you claiming we should accept the results of a test involving a plywood box, a flat square of stee and 18 shot gun blasts? None of which have anything to do with the world trade center.
In this case thew the only tests acceptable would be to rebuild an exact duplicate of the WTC and crash planes into them. Thats ridiculous.

[defaultdotxbe]

The steel wasn't square
does shape have that big of an effect on how well fireproofing sticks to a flat surface? it was designed to be similar to the flat side of a column

it wasn't in a plywood box
the box had nothign to do with the recreation, it was to keep shrapnel from flying aroudn and injuring anyone

and mohammed atta didn't have a shotgun.
IIRC they used special shells filled with aluminum to see what happens when high speed chunks of metal hit the fireproofing, sounds good to me

It's junk science
well obviously if you think this is not a good test you must have at least some of what would be a better test, im sure you wouldnt make a judgement with absolutely no frame of reference

so what do you think they should have done?

[Docker]

Beat you to it. :D

Your signature is nice. Why don't you show it to the brave ground zero workers who are now dying. Thanks for pissing on graves before they have even been dug.

[defaultdotxbe]

Thanks for linking to something in which NIST admits it couldn't get a floor assembly to collapse, even after 2 hours of exposure.
how many thousand tons of weight was supported their test structure?

[Garb]

Thanks for linking to something in which NIST admits it couldn't get a floor assembly to collapse, even after 2 hours of exposure.

Were those supports hit by planes?

[firecoins]

interesting article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28318-2005Apr5.html

[Garb]

Your signature is nice. Why don't you show it to the brave ground zero workers who are now dying. Thanks for pissing on graves before they have even been dug.

You are an idiot. How does my signature piss on the graves of the workers?

[Horatius]

are you claiming we should accept the results of a test involving a plywood box, a flat square of stee and 18 shot gun blasts? None of which have anything to do with the world trade center.

As a test of the effect of high speed impact on a model of the fireproofing, conducted by professional engineers skilled in the art of modeling such effects? Yes, we should accept the results, barring any evidence more compelling than "Yeah right! As if!"

As an aside, we've had various people from various disciplines mention that "common sense" expectations of how their discipline "should" work are completely off the mark. Are there any disciplines out there where such common sense expectations are actually accurate? My experience is most people are quick to say, "That's so easy and obvious! How hard can that be?" about everything except what they know in detail, at which time they tell you, "My job is actually very subtle and difficult!"

[Docker]

Were those supports hit by planes?

So your admitting they couldn't recreate the situation in the world trade center. Thanks.

[Docker]

You are an idiot. How does my signature piss on the graves of the workers?

Thanks.

[firecoins]

So your admitting they couldn't recreate the situation in the world trade center. Thanks.
you have no idea how scientific testing works.

[Garb]

So your admitting they couldn't recreate the situation in the world trade center. Thanks.

That wasn't the idea of the test.

You want to add evidence and add some argument instead of putting words in my mouth?

[Docker]

you have no idea how scientific testing works.

Well that's something I have in common with NIST then.

[Garb]

Thanks.

Are you f-ing serious!?

[Docker]

Are you f-ing serious!?

Depends how I feel.

[firecoins]

Well that's something I have in common with NIST then.
NIST investigators have a backround in engineering & investigations. They don't rely on speculation of secret black operations. Your backround?

[Garb]

Depends how I feel.

Well, feel like answering a question?

How does my signature piss on the graves of the workers?

Or do you want to keep to your delusions?

[Docker]

NIST investigators have a backround in engineering & investigations. They don't rely on speculation of secret black operations. Your backround?

When did I mention Secret black ops? Nice strawman.

[realitybites]

So your admitting they couldn't recreate the situation in the world trade center. Thanks.
Kinda' hard to recreate 110 stories in a laboratory. But then, I feel the concept of "scale" is lost on you.

And explain to me how testing the fireproofing would require a recreation of the entire situation? Have you read the NIST reports? There are numerous sections that break down the numerous aspects of that day.

It's called a scientific investigation.

Tell me, during an autopsy of a shooting victim, is it necessary for the coroner to put a bullet in the head of his assistant in order to determine the cause of death?

[chipmunk stew]

Thanks for linking to something in which NIST admits it couldn't get a floor assembly to collapse, even after 2 hours of exposure.
They were testing the fireproofing to see if it met the ASTM standard. It did.

They were ruling out design failures. It was not a test of the conditions on Sept. 11, including massive structural damage and dislodged fireproofing.

[luvhumility]

How dense are you? They were experimenting to estimate the amount of force that would be required to remove the fireproofing from the steel.

Shotgun pellets against a square of steel is a scaled down version of 767 debris traveling at 500+ miles per hour through a skyscraper.

Yah! I agree realitybites!, and if you consider the NIST test fire and heat was a "normal" fire situation and not many thousands of pounds of jet fuel, the test could be considered mostly valid... maybe not exact ,but within an order of mag.

For the test to be more accurate maybe the NIST should have shot it all up with a .50 cal then threw a few hunderd pounds of fuel on it then shot it up more to ignite it. That might be more realistic.??? Maybe thats what Docker is implying?? (I don't want to speak for docker though)! a large aircraft has mucho kinetic energy to boot!! not to metion all that fuel!

lh

[Docker]

Well, feel like answering a question?



Or do you want to keep to your delusions?

Because some have lymphomas. Am I dealing with children here?

[firecoins]

When did I mention Secret black ops? Nice strawman.
no strawman. They stick to the facts based on tests. You seem to doubt their tests but have not offered your backround or ability to create tests.

[Garb]

Because some have lymphomas. Am I dealing with children here?

Point being? I say lymphoma in my sig so that constitutes as pissing on their graves?

[Docker]

Yah! I agree realitybites!, and if you consider the NIST test fire and heat was a "normal" fire situation and not many thousands of pounds of jet fuel, the test could be considered mostly valid... maybe not exact ,but within an order of mag.

For the test to be more accurate maybe the NIST should have shot it all up with a .50 cal then threw a few hunderd pounds of fuel on it then shot it up more to ignite it. That might be more realistic.??? Maybe thats what Docker is implying?? (I don't want to speak for docker though)! a large aircraft has mucho kinetic energy to boot!! not to metion all that fuel!


lh

The fuel burned off in 20 minutes and reached temperatures nowhere near hot enough to weaken the steel.

NIST know this, which is why they have to make things up, like fireproofing being blown off and fiddling with parameters on the computer tests.

[realitybites]

no strawman. They stick to the facts based on tests. You seem to doubt their tests but have not offered your backround or ability to create tests.
Yeah, but he's got an Alex Jones avatar.

[Docker]

Point being? I say lymphoma in my sig so that constitutes as pissing on their graves?

If I need to explain this to you then there really is no hope son.

[chipmunk stew]

Am I dealing with children here?
No. Why are you talking about someone's sig instead of the topic you brought up?

They were testing the fireproofing to see if it met the ASTM standard. It did.

They were ruling out design failures. It was not a test of the conditions on Sept. 11, including massive structural damage and dislodged fireproofing.

You can use whatever you like--doesn't have to be a shotgun. How would you set it up?

[Garb]

The fuel burned off in 20 minutes and reached temperatures nowhere near hot enough to weaken the steel.

NIST know this, which is why they have to make things up, like fireproofing being blown off and fiddling with parameters on the computer tests.

Source?

And proof that they are making things up? Are you a scientist?

[realitybites]

And while you're answering Chipmunk's questions, don't forget mine:

Tell me, during an autopsy of a shooting victim, is it necessary for the coroner to put a bullet in the head of his assistant in order to determine the cause of death?

[uk_dave]

Because some have lymphomas. Am I dealing with children here?

No. But it seems that you are behaving like a petulant child. Stamp your foot, hold your breath and refuse to believe anything that contradicts your fantasies.

[Docker]

Source?

And proof that they are making things up? Are you a scientist?

Are you a scientist? Judging by your picture, I would say student.

[Garb]

If I need to explain this to you then there really is no hope son.

No really, you should, because saying lymphoma is no evidence for me pissing on anyone's graves. It was actually a post a guy made in this thread actually. Either this or another one. But it was on the subject of bombs causing lymphoma, and I found it quite funny. And no I wasn't laughing at the workers who have lymphoma so there's no reason to accuse me of that.

[Garb]

Are you a scientist? Judging by your picture, I would say student.

Not the point. Stop side-stepping and please inform me on how the NIST report wasn't correctly done in a scientific manner.

[chipmunk stew]

Are you a scientist? Judging by your picture, I would say student.
Judging by yours, I'd say you were a fanboy of a certified moonbat.
:bike:

What does mine tell you about me?
:popcorn1

[luvhumility]

I think that the fact that the buildings held up that long is incredible! The design engineers should be proud! Many lives were saved in those fatefull hours... Now we learn and move on...(better fireproofing will be implemented I am sure) Its the security lapse's in our own security agencies and the lack of proper communication and evacuation procedures that bother me most. Those issues are being addressed also... All being considered, They all did the best they could.

[Augustine]

The fuel burned off in 20 minutes and reached temperatures nowhere near hot enough to weaken the steel.

NIST know this, which is why they have to make things up, like fireproofing being blown off and fiddling with parameters on the computer tests.

What was the internal temperature in the impacted floors IN YOUR ANALYSIS?

What parameters precisely did NIST "fiddle with"? How were the values wrong and what should they have been IN YOUR ANALYSIS?

[Belz...]

Would anyone care to explain the anomalies that are the subject of this thread? How does the front part of a car get the steel melted, while the back half is pristine?

Er... they were not subjected to the same conditions ?

Does this not imply that the front part was melted very quickly? How does a rubber tire disappear leaving the steel belts behind, without leaving any black goo? How does the metal burn when the plastic next to it is fine? How do the windows in a fire truck get blown out, but the fire truck is not damaged by any debris? This would certainly imply a huge increase in air pressure, would it not?

That's a lot of questions.

It appears that whatever caused these weird things had 1) an ability to act selectively on different materials, and 2) the abiity to increase the temperature of steel very, very rapidly.

Long live fire, eh ?

Please, JREFs, tell me what you imagine happened to create these effects.

Obviously: a desintegrate spell.

[Belz...]

He is far more qualified than you, oh and he is now a doctor. Hardly the type to be a nutjob

Oh, please. Anyone can be a nutjob. Especially those who think they know more than everybody else. PhDs are prime targets, then.

Thought people who know NOTHING usually ALSO think they know more.

And why did the heat in the wtc not radiate to all the rest of the steel. There is no way that steel had the time to be compromised, even in the hottest part of the building. It is ludicrous.

Another glaring example that shows that CTers have a simplistic, kindergarten view of the universe. "But, it's ALSO made of metal, mom!"

[defaultdotxbe]

The fuel burned off in 20 minutes and reached temperatures nowhere near hot enough to weaken the steel.
are you implying the fuel was the only thing int eh towers that could burn? are you implying it was the thing that would burn the hottest? if you are you are wrong on both counts

[Docker]

Not the point. Stop side-stepping and please inform me on how the NIST report wasn't correctly done in a scientific manner.

I have explained this.

[Docker]

are you implying the fuel was the only thing int eh towers that could burn? are you implying it was the thing that would burn the hottest? if you are you are wrong on both counts

Are you implying that desks burning for 56 minutes could cause global collapse in one of the greatest engineering triumphs in history?

[Garb]

I have explained this.

Actually, you haven't. You made judgements based on what you think is wrong, yet you haven't cited any experts, haven't shown sources to back up your claims, and haven't even put up any worthwhile commentary.

So would you like to show us or not?

[T.A.M.]

Docker:

Seems since I have last been here, you have started to devolve into child-like behaviour yourself.

What amazes me, is how someone, with a straight face, can say that Judy Wood and here crew are more reliable than all of the structural and civil engineers that worked on the NIST Study.

They did not "make up" the fire-proofing issue.

Once again, you are making comments which are pure opinion without a shred of evidence, speculating without any proof, and even your reasoning is illogical.

As for the Bullet/Steel Experiment, if you find it not realistic enough to demonstrate what they required, than what is your suggestion. NIST used a wide variety of methods to make their determinations, including computer models.

I understand your frustration with 20 Debunkers on your back simultaneously, but throwing out opinion after opinion without any proof, on a skeptics forum, well it isnt gonna get you anywhere except angry, and others angry along with you.

TAM

[firecoins]

I have explained this.
no, you haven't. You said NIST hasn't done realistic tests. Of course they have been peer reviewed by other scientists.

Are you a scientist? Its a simple question but you haven't answered.

I for instance have a B.A. in Economics. I am not an engineer. What is your backround?

[Docker]

Actually, you haven't. You made judgements based on what you think is wrong, yet you haven't cited any experts, haven't shown sources to back up your claims, and haven't even put up any worthwhile commentary.

So would you like to show us or not?

Do you mind? The adults are talking.

I'm never having kids if this is what i'll have to put up with.

[firecoins]

Are you implying that desks burning for 56 minutes could cause global collapse in one of the greatest engineering triumphs in history?
I am saying that you put up your explaination backed by evidence and you backround.