Vitamin confusion

[ReFLeX]

I always thought vitamins are only beneficial when ingested. Am I confused?

A friend who is a makeup artist for Clinique told me how antioxidant creams protect the skin, and I mentioned how I remember learning that even the dietary benefits of antioxidants are in doubt. But I was pretty sure vitamin creams for skin or shampoos had no real reason to include vitamins in the ingredients other than for marketing purposes. I haven't got much time right now but that is the basic idea behind vitamins, isn't it? You EAT them?

[Blutarsky]

I am not a doctor, but I play one on the internet and I am fairly certain that the skin is a porous organ, that's why Ortho Evra works. So certain things can be absorbed into the body via the skin.

[ChristineR]

Certain vitamins have chemical properties that make them desireable in cosmetics even if they aren't absorbed into your skin. Anitoxidants are preservatives, that is they keep the skin cream from going bad. In theory an antioxidant could preserve your skin from external damage. I doubt if anyone has proven this.

Even if the vitamin is absorbed into the skin it would be in amounts so small that it wouldn't have much effect unless you were eating a truly skewed diet. Of course that's mostly true of vitamin pills also.

[Cuddles]

Putting it on your skin I can just about live with, since it could in theory be absorbed. Putting it in your hair I'm a little more sceptical of, considering that it's dead.

[mumchup]

Considering the amount of pseudo-science, quackery & BS in the cosmetic industry, I am always inclined to figure the claim is garbage until I see proof otherwise.

[Blutarsky]

So what claim is being disputed then? There is no dispute that the skin absorbs chemicals placed upon it, and numerous volumes have been written in medical journals regarding the value of antioxidants, in fact, too numerous to mention here. Vitamins may not be the answer, but I can't find too many physicians who doubt their efficacy when obtained by eating fruits and vegetables.

That being said, aren't most topical products botanical?

[Mongrel]

The skin only absorbs certain chemicals placed on it, not all. Skin care products work because they only have to be absorbed by the top layer or two, which is pretty much dead or soon to be dead tissue.

The skin is a barrier meant to protect all of the body and not generally porous in everday life or we'd be constantly gooey and swell up in the rain (try a sitting a fresh piece of meat on a coffee filter and another on a piece of waxed paper and leave for an hour - which would you rather your skin was?).

Because it's a barrier drugs manufacturers have a hell of a time getting the 'patch' delivery system working correctly and why many of them are so expensive. If it was easy we'd be able to buy a load more stuff that came as patches, as they're able to give a constant dosage over a period of time.

[Blutarsky]

I don't think anyone is suggesting a multi vitamin skin patch, but why are products such as Icy Hot so effective? How about that immensely annoying commercial for Head On headache treatment?

Either way I can't argue with you too much as your sig comes from one of my favorite authors of all time.

[mumchup]

I don't think anyone is suggesting a multi vitamin skin patch, but why are products such as Icy Hot so effective? How about that immensely annoying commercial for Head On headache treatment?

Head On? You mean the homeopathic wax? The one that doesn't claim any special features, except that it can be applied "directly to the forehead?"

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think anyone is suggesting a multi vitamin skin patch, but why are products such as Icy Hot so effective? How about that immensely annoying commercial for Head On headache treatment?

Either way I can't argue with you too much as your sig comes from one of my favorite authors of all time.

Well some chemicals do effect the skin, see peper spray as an example. Head on is homeopathic, so even if its active ingreedient did go through the skin you would have to actualy have some in your aplication to start with.

[Mongrel]

Haven't seen the Head On commercials, thankfully, and being from the UK I've no idea what Icy Hot is (and their website is full of bad links). From the product description though it looks like a combination heat rub (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100002619.html) and levomenthol (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100003813.html). I'd try and get more info but my Pharmacist is busy playing WoW ;).

Either way the drugs are only being absorbed by the outer layers of the skin

[ChristineR]

Head On contains menthol also. In other words, Head On contains a worthless homeopathic preperation and a substance that does do something. Basically menthol causes evaporative cooling. Menthol is poisonous enough that you are warned not to use it on broken skin.

[Blutarsky]

I didn't mean to start a "Head On" bashing thread, I simply meant to provide discussion on transdermal transfer. Simply googling the term reveals numerous items (pain meds, supplements, birth control) that use transdermal methods for a route of administration and are used by physicians.

[blutoski]

I always thought vitamins are only beneficial when ingested. Am I confused?

A friend who is a makeup artist for Clinique told me how antioxidant creams protect the skin, and I mentioned how I remember learning that even the dietary benefits of antioxidants are in doubt. But I was pretty sure vitamin creams for skin or shampoos had no real reason to include vitamins in the ingredients other than for marketing purposes. I haven't got much time right now but that is the basic idea behind vitamins, isn't it? You EAT them?

Antioxidants are not vitamins. (although some vitamins are antioxidants, but that is not the property that makes them vitamins)

Some vitamins can be absorbed through skin, especially if they're fat soluble. (Eg Vitamin E) The skin repels water unless the water exposure is prolonged, so water-soluble vitamins are probably not absorbed at all, unless you're bathing in the stuff.

Without knowing the specifics of *which* antioxidants are involved, it's hard to say it the specific claims of this product are true re: absorption.

Secondly, there is no convincing evidence that dietary or topical antioxidants have meaningful health benefits associated with their antioxidant nature (again: Vitamin C's health benefits are not related to its being an antioxidant), but plenty of evidence that they're carcionogenic, especially in high concentrations.

Quackwatch: Antioxidants (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/antioxidants.html)

[Flange Desire]

Consider -

How/why would the human skin have evolved such that it would benefit from the application of unexpected goop?

[Globert]

[/geek-mode]

There are three routes of entry: Ingestion, Injection, Absorption.

Basic haz-mat awareness.

[\geek-mode].

Too, there are chemicals whose properties zip through skin without undue damage, hence their addition in transdermal patches.

If I've some time tomorrow I'll Google up some examples.

(Mmmm, almondy goodness).

[blutoski]

Consider -

How/why would the human skin have evolved such that it would benefit from the application of unexpected goop?

Well, if you go back far enough, the skin was the only way our ancestors could absorb nutrients. Everything came through the integument.

Over time, different parts of the integument formed into specialized pockets (see the acaelomates such as sea anemones) and then into permanent internalized tubes. (remember: technically, the intestinal wall is 'outside' the body, and just a continuation of our skin)

So, the real question is: how long will it be until our skin has lost all of its original substance-permeable properties, and becomes a complete barrier?

[ReFLeX]

There is no dispute that the skin absorbs chemicals placed upon it, and numerous volumes have been written in medical journals regarding the value of antioxidants, in fact, too numerous to mention here.
This is arguably because of the marketing value of using a recognized word to promote a product. Like "pH balanced", people don't know what it means but it sounds good.

Quackwatch:There is widespread scientific agreement that eating adequate amounts of fruits and vegetables can help lower the incidence of cardiovascular disease and certain cancers. With respect to antioxidants and other phytochemicals, the key question is whether supplementation has been proven to do more good than harm. So far, the answer is no, which is why the FDA will not permit any of these substances to be labeled or marketed with claims that they can prevent disease.

[ReFLeX]

Antioxidants are not vitamins. (although some vitamins are antioxidants, but that is not the property that makes them vitamins)Sorry if I didn't make this clear. Yes, I know that. And I had read the quackwatch thing on antioxidants just quickly but it focused on diet. But I am surprised about the absorption, so I guess vitamins A, D, E and K can be absorbed through skin... hmm. I did know that Vitamin D is made by your body from sunlight or something.

[blutoski]

Well, if you go back far enough, the skin was the only way our ancestors could absorb nutrients. Everything came through the integument.

Over time, different parts of the integument formed into specialized pockets (see the acaelomates such as sea anemones) and then into permanent internalized tubes. (remember: technically, the intestinal wall is 'outside' the body, and just a continuation of our skin)

So, the real question is: how long will it be until our skin has lost all of its original substance-permeable properties, and becomes a complete barrier?

Ah, here's the cartoon I was thinking of... Partially Clips: Jellyfish (http://www.partiallyclips.com/index.php?id=1169)

[blutoski]

Sorry if I didn't make this clear. Yes, I know that. And I had read the quackwatch thing on antioxidants just quickly but it focused on diet. But I am surprised about the absorption, so I guess vitamins A, D, E and K can be absorbed through skin... hmm.

Oh, yes, absolutely. Again: the key is "fat soluble." The same principle applies with some familiarity to topical anaesthetics which can be rubbed on the skin, and produce numbness. You'll find that mouth/bowel and mucous membranes are permeable. Ambisol, for example, works much faster in the mouth than on skin. (I think this is lidocaine, but am willing to be corrected).

And then there's the whole category known as "balms," including Tiger Balm and the famous Ben-Gay. Both are primarily a menthol cream, and Tiger Balm also contains camphor. There are a thousand other like-products, probably.

[anor277]

[/geek-mode]

There are three routes of entry: Ingestion, Injection, Absorption.

Basic haz-mat awareness.

[\geek-mode].

Too, there are chemicals whose properties zip through skin without undue damage, hence their addition in transdermal patches.

If I've some time tomorrow I'll Google up some examples.

(Mmmm, almondy goodness).

Likewise, one may dissolve the chemical in a solvent which easily permeates the skin. The best example of this is dimethylsulfoxide, DMSO; it is known as doggy breath because it is metabolized as dimethyl sulfide (pretty smelly stuff). I have dissolved aspirin up in DMSO for aching backs.

On the other hand, if you are working with potassium cyanide in DMSO solution, you should take great care that the solution does not touch your skin.

[kellyb]

Sorry if this is off topic a little, but I'm interested in why hormones are so freakishly easily absorbed through the skin.

It seems like there's probably some obvious "reason", but I can't think of what it is.

[Globert]

Likewise, one may dissolve the chemical in a solvent which easily permeates the skin. The best example of this is dimethylsulfoxide, DMSO; it is known as doggy breath because it is metabolized as dimethyl sulfide (pretty smelly stuff). I have dissolved aspirin up in DMSO for aching backs.

On the other hand, if you are working with potassium cyanide in DMSO solution, you should take great care that the solution does not touch your skin.

That's the ticket.

[fuelair]

[/geek-mode]

There are three routes of entry: Ingestion, Injection, Absorption.

Basic haz-mat awareness.

[\geek-mode].

Too, there are chemicals whose properties zip through skin without undue damage, hence their addition in transdermal patches.

If I've some time tomorrow I'll Google up some examples.

(Mmmm, almondy goodness). DMSO for one - which was easy to get and can carry stuff through the skinn. Turns out that's not all it can do so it's banned. (good reasons).

[Jekyll]

Turns out that's not all it can do so it's banned. (good reasons).

What are they? Whenever I try googling for DMSO I get swamped by all the advocacy pages (where DMSO cures cancer and makes you hung like a horse).

[fuelair]

What are they? Whenever I try googling for DMSO I get swamped by all the advocacy pages (where DMSO cures cancer and makes you hung like a horse).

A) Dogpile it (www.dogpile.com) Google is only one of many it searches.

B) Enter DMSO ban rather than just DMSO . Reason: DMSO give you first the sites that pay to get top listings or use various other tricks for same. DMSO ban gets many fewer of those - and the ones it does get at least mention the ban.

C)Go here - a pretty good statement of the situation (as I understand it):
http://www.thehormoneshop.com/msm.htm

[Eos of the Eons]

In recent studies, from the quackwatch link:

The fourth trial, which tested a combination of beta-carotene and vitamin A, was terminated after four years because it appeared that the supplement-takers who smoked had a 28% higher incidence of lung cancer and a 17% higher death rate [7].

Folks are hypothesizing the above happened because one way the body will fight cancerous cells is by oxidizing them. Take away that defensive system, and you have a higher chance of cancer taking root.

Problem is, it is unethical to cause cancer, so it's tough to test the hypothesis. If you are told that the study you are going to take part of is to show that you will get cancer by taking antioxidants, would you be so quick to sign up?

I'd like the sellers of antioxidant supplements to all sign up and take their products at varying levels to see at what threshold the cancer rates spike at. Then they can tell their customers what amount of antioxidants is actually safe to take.

[ponderingturtle]

Problem is, it is unethical to cause cancer, so it's tough to test the hypothesis. If you are told that the study you are going to take part of is to show that you will get cancer by taking antioxidants, would you be so quick to sign up?


This is fundamentally a problem with any vitamin, it is really easy to determine what doses of vitamin fix deficiency problems and which ones cause acute symptoms, but determining the optimum amount is very hard

[joobz]

Sorry if this is off topic a little, but I'm interested in why hormones are so freakishly easily absorbed through the skin.

It seems like there's probably some obvious "reason", but I can't think of what it is.
Because they are hydrophobic. Most hormones are variants of cholesterol. As such, they easily partition into cell membranes, a key feature of easily skin adsorbed chemicals.

[kellyb]

Because they are hydrophobic. Most hormones are variants of cholesterol. As such, they easily partition into cell membranes, a key feature of easily skin adsorbed chemicals.

Thank you!:)

[joobz]

DMSO for one - which was easy to get and can carry stuff through the skinn. Turns out that's not all it can do so it's banned. (good reasons).
I take it you read electric Kool-aid acid test?

[NeilC]

Consider -

How/why would the human skin have evolved such that it would benefit from the application of unexpected goop?

Not sure why this is relevant. We didn't evolve to brush out teeth but it helps prevent tooth and gum disease. We didn't evolve to absorb ibuprofen through out gut wall but it sure helps people with inflammatory diseases.

Re: vitamins on the skin. Some vitamins have chemical properties wider in range than their specific use in the human body - such as anti-oxident behaviour. Vitamin C might well act as an exfolient due to it's acidic properties. So it's possible they might have an effect. Whether it is an effect parallel to their internal use is another matter.