New College Curriculum: Whiteness Studies

[ggcarl]

Check out this article (http://www.msnbc.com/news/928992.asp?0cv=CB20) at MSNBC. They didn't teach this when I went to college in south Mississippi and Louisiana in the late 60's and early 70's.

Part of me thinks it's a great idea which time has come. Another part of me thinks it keeps the idea of racism alive. I wonder how it will play out. I have to admit that there are several aspects alluded to in the article that I would never have thought of, and I consider myself non-racist.

Is it the purpose of such courses to show white students what it's like to not be white? Is it the hope that this approach will heal wounds and make us closer? Or is the curriculum about trying to pin a "guilt trip" on white people, punishment for the sins of the past?

Whatever the goals are, it's certainly a controversial idea. If done right and not let get out of hand, I think it might have a positive effect. But people often get emotional, sometimes unreasonably, so it could possibly have the opposite effect, too.

[Ladyhawk]

I think it's a little bit of 'all the above', gg. I'm sure the intent of the class is an honorable one, but I'm not so sure the outcome will be the one hoped for. IMHO, it will only foster more negative feelings on all sides .

[tamiO]

AMHERST, Mass. — Naomi Cairns was among the leaders in the privilege walk, and she wasn’t happy about it. The exercise, which recently involved Cairns and her classmates in a course at the University of Massachusetts, had two simple rules: When the moderator read a statement that applied to you, you stepped forward; if it didn’t, you stepped back. After the moderator asked if you were certain you could get a bank loan whenever you wanted, Cairns thought, “Oh my God, here we go again,” and took yet another step forward.

“YOU LOOKED BEHIND YOU and became really uncomfortable,” said Cairns, a 24-year-old junior who stood at the front of the classroom with other white students. Asian and black students she admired were near the back. “We all started together,” she said, “and now were so separated.”

The people who were left behind on this walking exercise clearly have confidence problems. If you start out imagining you are not going to get something done because of the color of your skin, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by tamiO


The people who were left behind on this walking exercise clearly have confidence problems. If you start out imagining you are not going to get something done because of the color of your skin, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Where there is a will, there is a way.


Very good point! You know, I'd be curious to read all of the questions asked during the priviledge walk. Based on the one quoted about how confident you feel that you could qualify for a loan, the studen't response might be based on something other than race (..maybe they hadn't paid their cell phone bill in the last 3 months! :D ) And, it's quite possible that students of color who take this class could end up feeling less confident and more racist at the finish than they did when they started..

[BillyTK]

I'd take issue with the titling of the course, which seems to be designed to be controversial, and because the subject matter is covered in the sociology of race and ethnicity anyway. On the otherhand, any subject which highlights the fact that "whiteness" isn't a default or neutral position, and gets up the noses of "social" "critics" like David Horowitz is a good thing IMO. If it can get condemnation from Ann Coulter as well then that will be all the recommendation it needs!

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by tamiO


The people who were left behind on this walking exercise clearly have confidence problems. If you start out imagining you are not going to get something done because of the color of your skin, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

But this is the point of exercises like the privilege walk; to get you to question that which you take for granted. Yes, part of it is a certain lack of confidence, but it's a lack of confidence which comes from experience. Have you ever head of the Brown Eyes-Blue Eyes exercise (http://www.horizonmag.com/4/jane-elliott.asp)?

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by BillyTK


But this is the point of exercises like the privilege walk; to get you to question that which you take for granted. Yes, part of it is a certain lack of confidence, but it's a lack of confidence which comes from experience. Have you ever head of the Brown Eyes-Blue Eyes exercise (http://www.horizonmag.com/4/jane-elliott.asp)?

You gotta question Elliot's methods with those kids, though. Looks like her well intentioned exercises did some damage to a few of them. The article never says what, if anything Elliot did to reverse the effects. You're right in that a lack of confidence usually comes from experience. I just think these kinds of classes shouldn't presume that all lack of confidence traces back to a racial issue. There are other social, economic, even religious factors that can rob one's confidence as well....

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by tamiO


The people who were left behind on this walking exercise clearly have confidence problems. If you start out imagining you are not going to get something done because of the color of your skin, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Agreed. I like the overall idea, but poor implimentation. Instead of people making judgements about themselves everyone should be judnged by the systems that judge them, and THEN show the results. I have no doubt that the results would be similar, but they would also be more worthy at the same time.

[Genghis Pwn]

The field is based on a left-leaning interpretation of history by scholars who say the concept of race was created by a rich white European and American elite, and has been used to deny property, power and status to nonwhite groups for two centuries.

yeah, white people invented race :rolleyes:



Advocates of whiteness studies — most of whom are white liberals who hope to dismantle notions of race — believe that white Americans are so accustomed to being part of a privileged majority they do not see themselves as part of a race. :rolleyes:

I bet my life that most of these people dedicated to "dismantling notions of race" are big supporters of race-based affirmative action, which is despensed by clear "racial" guidelines.

This quote from David Horowitz nails it...


But opponents say whiteness studies has already done that. David Horowitz, a conservative social critic who is white, said whiteness studies is leftist philosophy spiraling out of control. “Black studies celebrates blackness, Chicano studies celebrates Chicanos, women’s studies celebrates women, and white studies attacks white people as evil,” Horowitz said.


While things like the privilege walk seem interesting and possibly useful, the overall program and its aims seems unAmerican, anti-white -- run by by a bunch of liberal white self-haters. This is not what America needs to come together.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by BillyTK


But this is the point of exercises like the privilege walk; to get you to question that which you take for granted. Yes, part of it is a certain lack of confidence, but it's a lack of confidence which comes from experience. Have you ever head of the Brown Eyes-Blue Eyes exercise (http://www.horizonmag.com/4/jane-elliott.asp)?

I am not denying that people get turned down for loans or promotions or housing because of their appearance. I am saying that the kids need to be taught to never give up and to be creative in their journey towards success.

It's just way too easy to give up and blame it on The Man.

Yes, I have heard of that study. I saw Oprah pull it on her audience years ago. But I never saw the original study, thank you for posting a link. :)

[subgenius]

The discussions of race here suffer greatly from a lack of Black voices.

[Malachi151]

I think its a good counter balance to the typical view of only acknowledgeing the good things about white culture while ingnoring the negatives, while at the time focusing in on the negatives of other cultures while ignoring the positives.

White, being in power, have covered up most of our own bad history in America as much as possible. Thats just a fact. If they do stick to facts then I see no problem and think its good. If they get into opinions and unsupportable claims, then its bad.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by subgenius
The discussions of race here suffer greatly from a lack of Black voices.

How can you tell what color people are from their posts?

[Genghis Pwn]

Malachi151, I nominate you for PC Crusader of the year. At you're consistant. lol

[subgenius]

Originally posted by tamiO


How can you tell what color people are from their posts?
I'm psychic.
And I have previously requested that we hear from African-Americans when confronted with threads such as "Slavery was Good", and have been met with the sound of crickets.
If you have any evidence that any of the posters is African-American please advise.
If there are any they are few and far between.
I would once again request that we hear from Blacks on these issues.

[Kodiak]

IMO, this kind of thing just reinforces the idea that skin color is and should be a considering/determining factor in society.

Wasn't the goal supposed to be that one day skin color would be meaningless and irrelevant?

[tamiO]

Originally posted by subgenius

I'm psychic.
And I have previously requested that we hear from African-Americans when confronted with threads such as "Slavery was Good", and have been met with the sound of crickets.
If you have any evidence that any of the posters is African-American please advise.
If there are any they are few and far between.
I would once again request that we hear from Blacks on these issues.

I understand. One of the things I love about the internet - you don't know what color the person is, unless they tell you.

:)

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by subgenius

I'm psychic.
And I have previously requested that we hear from African-Americans when confronted with threads such as "Slavery was Good", and have been met with the sound of crickets.
If you have any evidence that any of the posters is African-American please advise.
If there are any they are few and far between.
I would once again request that we hear from Blacks on these issues.

With all due respect, Sub, why do we need more black voices to comment on "whiteness" studies? Would you ask for more white voices if this discussion was concerning "blackness" studies?
Not trying to be sarcastic, here. Just wondering ...?

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by Kodiak
IMO, this kind of thing just reinforces the idea that skin color is and should be a considering/determining factor in society.

Wasn't the goal supposed to be that one day skin color would be meaningless and irrelevant?

Agreed, Kodiak...I think that is the goal and I think most of these programs are developed with the best intent of meeting that goal. Unfortunately (and I just know I'm gonna get flamed for saying this), I don't think racism will ever die. There's just too much money and power in it. Sadly, classes like these can, indirectly, serve to end up supporting racism more than defeating it..

[BobK]

Originally posted by subgenius

I'm psychic.
And I have previously requested that we hear from African-Americans when confronted with threads such as "Slavery was Good", and have been met with the sound of crickets.
If you have any evidence that any of the posters is African-American please advise.
If there are any they are few and far between.
I would once again request that we hear from Blacks on these issues.

Why not go to the JREF posters picture thread and look?

Also, why did you mention only Blacks? Don't Asians, Hispanics, Indians, Eskimos etc. count?

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
Malachi151, I nominate you for PC Crusader of the year. At you're consistant. lol

I could probably develop coursework for them.

http://malachi151.tripod.com/development_of_america.htm

;)

I make no bones about my views.

[BobK]

Should I presume it's an elective course?

If so, the class will be populated with the people that are most concerned about race anyway.

Sort of like preaching to the choir.:rolleyes:

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Malachi151
I make no bones about my views.

I always knew you were "spineless"! ;) :D


Get it?

"no bones"?... :D

"spineless"?... :D


I crack me up...

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by subgenius
The discussions of race here suffer greatly from a lack of Black voices.

If this is true, what do you think the the reason for this might be?

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Unfortunately (and I just know I'm gonna get flamed for saying this), I don't think racism will ever die. There's just too much money and power in it.

No flaming here...I agree with you. That fact though, cannot stop us from continuing the fight against racism.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by BobK
Should I presume it's an elective course?

If so, the class will be populated with the people that are most concerned about race anyway.

Sort of like preaching to the choir.:rolleyes:

Many universities require completion of a course similar to this one, though, perhaps not quite as controversial. I'm sure you've heard the term "diversity studies' bandied around the last few years. Students are usually required to take one course form amongst a varied selection, all having to do with race or gender discrimination.

You make a good point regarding electives and 'preaching to the choir'. OTOH, making it required isn't helpful, either. I had to take a similar class in college and most of the white participants (including myself) didn't want to be there. Didn't seem like it broke any racial barriers to me. In fact, oftimes, the discussions got so heated and emotional, I usually left after first break...

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by BobK
Should I presume it's an elective course?

If so, the class will be populated with the people that are most concerned about race anyway.

Sort of like preaching to the choir.:rolleyes:

Not really. Often people have opinons but they don't have much facts. Once they are given facts then they can reevaluate their opinions, and they can also figure out WHY they may have felt the way they did, and if the issues are really imporant enough to do something about, and they can also better support their opinions when having discussing the subject with others.

I think that whites are an example of belief guiding reality. Whited beleived they were superior and entitled, so they became dominate in America and around the world. They believed that they were entitled to take the land in America, so they did. People who did not believe they were entitled would not have.

I think that much of success has to do with self-fulfilling prophesy.

What is interesting about "race" and why this whole thing is proven to be a worthwhile endevor is this:

In Europe certian "races" of whites were seen as inferior, the Irish for example. In Great Britain the Irish were the "blacks" or the society, and as such they were much like blacks here in America, poor, high crime rates, etc.

After coming to America where the distinction between Irish and British has gone away, we see none of the traits of Irish culture here in America. Irish people in America are no less successful that British decendants.

While in Britain the British used all the same terms about the Irish as many do about the blacks, they are inferior, they should earn they way, etc. Yet they always stayed "inferior". Once taken out of that race/class environment, the Irish have doen just as well in America as anyone else.

This is the type of ideology behind the "whiteness" courses and behind race studies and behing saying that race is a social construct, and behinf Affirmative Action.

[BobK]

Malachi,

I think you miss my point.

If it's an elective course you're only going to get students that are already concerned about race and the people that aren't concerned won't take the course.

Sorta minimizes the value of the course doesn't it?

Seems to me that if it was required it would likely do more good.

That's providing the course itself does what they hope it will do.

[Dancing David]

And baker says there is no right media biasis, how many times can you use the word liberal in an article, and to quote only conservative commentaries.

Oh, well, why is it that white middle classs people want to deny that being white and not lower class has it's advantages? Our society is very class structured in so many ways, and the minute somebody point out the fact that we have privileged classes then every one gets upset.

Typical example white boy, drunk at his fraternity assaults a pizza delivery guy and steals the pizza, and breaks the guys nose. His dady is very rich and can higher a lawyer, the kid is given three months probation and gets to do community service at a swimming pool being a life guard.
Now insert lower class non-white individual into the equation, his public defender might have got him probabtion but he might have had to spend sixty days in the county.

People underestimate the power of class in our society.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by BobK
Malachi,

I think you miss my point.

If it's an elective course you're only going to get students that are already concerned about race and the people that aren't concerned won't take the course.

Sorta minimizes the value of the course doesn't it?

Seems to me that if it was required it would likely do more good.

That's providing the course itself does what they hope it will do.

Well I agree, but I think that new and controverial courses like this often start as electives, and may forever stay electives, but having an elective course is better than no course at all.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Dancing David
And baker says there is no right media biasis, how many times can you use the word liberal in an article, and to quote only conservative commentaries.

Oh, well, why is it that white middle classs people want to deny that being white and not lower class has it's advantages? Our society is very class structured in so many ways, and the minute somebody point out the fact that we have privileged classes then every one gets upset.

Typical example white boy, drunk at his fraternity assaults a pizza delivery guy and steals the pizza, and breaks the guys nose. His dady is very rich and can higher a lawyer, the kid is given three months probation and gets to do community service at a swimming pool being a life guard.
Now insert lower class non-white individual into the equation, his public defender might have got him probabtion but he might have had to spend sixty days in the county.

People underestimate the power of class in our society.

Well, even more than that though. White fat boys punches pizza guy, most people will see this as "just part of college life, its one of those things that people do, etc.", other words, not a big deal, and probably laughed about by his peers.

Black guy in same situation, now its a huge problem and evidence that blacks are horrible out of control people and the stigma goes against all blacks. Those same people that would have laughed at their peer doing it are also likely to hear about say "Those damned *******." when hearing about a black person doing the same thing.

I say this from experaince having been in a white fraternaty at the University of Arkansas. We had fights and crap all the time.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by Dancing David

Oh, well, why is it that white middle classs people want to deny that being white and not lower class has it's advantages? Our society is very class structured in so many ways, and the minute somebody point out the fact that we have privileged classes then every one gets upset.

People underestimate the power of class in our society.

Hi, DD!

I think you'd be very hard pressed to find any white person who says that being white in America doesn't have advantages (unless they only had an IQ = to that of a ping pong ball....) But, this isn't 1960 anymore. Progress has been made via AA, and other laws. Do we have a long way to go? Absolutely. But is it as bad as in 1960? No. You can see that simply by the diversity in the workforce today that we didn't witness in the '60's. My hometown of Detroit has a far different structure racially than it did in the 60's, both demographically and politically. It's getting better. I don't think white people get upset over having it pointed out to them that they have advantages. I just think they get tired of getting beat over the head with it every day... :)

[subgenius]

Originally posted by BobK


Why not go to the JREF posters picture thread and look?

Also, why did you mention only Blacks? Don't Asians, Hispanics, Indians, Eskimos etc. count?
I have seen the thread.
Everyone counts.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Diogenes


If this is true, what do you think the the reason for this might be?
Don't know zactly, you got any thoughts?

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Well, even more than that though. White fat boys punches pizza guy, most people will see this as "just part of college life, its one of those things that people do, etc.", other words, not a big deal, and probably laughed about by his peers.

Black guy in same situation, now its a huge problem and evidence that blacks are horrible out of control people and the stigma goes against all blacks. Those same people that would have laughed at their peer doing it are also likely to hear about say "Those damned *******." when hearing about a black person doing the same thing.

I say this from experaince having been in a white fraternaty at the University of Arkansas. We had fights and crap all the time.

Malachi, question. In your honest opinion: which gets more press in the media today? Black mob beats up white guy or white mob beats up black guy?

[BobK]

Will the whites be able to have their own "White Senior Celebration" like the blacks had in this (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20902&highlight=heritage) thread?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Well, even more than that though. White fat boys punches pizza guy, most people will see this as "just part of college life, its one of those things that people do, etc.", other words, not a big deal, and probably laughed about by his peers.

Black guy in same situation, now its a huge problem and evidence that blacks are horrible out of control people and the stigma goes against all blacks. Those same people that would have laughed at their peer doing it are also likely to hear about say "Those damned *******." when hearing about a black person doing the same thing.

I say this from experaince having been in a white fraternaty at the University of Arkansas. We had fights and crap all the time.

Arent Frats really just gangs? You got your symbols, colors, in for life, drugs, drinking, fighting wh rival frats.


Look at riots. If its some Championship game losing dunken college kids rioting its just "boys will be boys". If its a race base riot its " they should send in the Army and shoot on sight".

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by BobK
Will the whites be able to have their own "White Senior Celebration" like the blacks had in this (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20902&highlight=heritage) thread?

Oh, Jebus Cribes! No way! That would be racist!
:eek:

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by subgenius

Don't know zactly, you got any thoughts?

I hadn't really thought about it till you brought it up..

Is there much black visibility in the skeptical community?

I would be curious why there wouldn't be...

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Malachi151
............

Well, even more than that though. White fat boys punches pizza guy, most people will see this as "just part of college life, its one of those things that people do, etc.", other words, not a big deal, and probably laughed about by his peers...............



Unless the pizza guy is black or gay.. Then you have a hate crime..

[Dancing David]

Hmm, maybe because thier sceptical that we aren't racists...

It is a great question.

ladyhawke , you crack me up!

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk


You gotta question Elliot's methods with those kids, though. Looks like her well intentioned exercises did some damage to a few of them. The article never says what, if anything Elliot did to reverse the effects. You're right in that a lack of confidence usually comes from experience. I just think these kinds of classes shouldn't presume that all lack of confidence traces back to a racial issue. There are other social, economic, even religious factors that can rob one's confidence as well....

She debriefed them straight afterwards and explained what she did and why she did it; the short term damage was quickly repaired, but the long term effect was a particular insensitivity to intolerance. There was an interview with some of her pupils floating round on the net recently, I'll try and track it down.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn


yeah, white people invented race :rolleyes:



:rotflmao: Who was it? The Martians?

Just out of interest, I wonder how often melanin-challenged ;) posters here ever feel/made to feel aware of their skin colour?