Detroit's ruins

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Unseen to the eye, during that hazy summer, immense economic, social and political forces, that had been set in motion years prior, were to render large sections of the city and its industrial structures into ruination. Could one be instantly transported from that time forward twenty year it would appear as if large areas of the city had been carpet bombed leaving behind huge hulking ruins -- ruins larger and more extensive than those I found in my travels to Zimbabwe, El Tajin, Ephesus, Athens, or Rome.

http://detroityes.com/interact/prologue.htm

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser


As a metro Detroiter (born and raised on Detroit's east side - moved just north of 8 mile in my late teens), let me say that Detroit, believe it or not, is on the rebound. Are there areas that still resemble war zones? Yes, but they are being cleaned up and people are moving back into many of these areas.


Now if we can only get rid of the police corruption and the preferential treatment given the new mayor and his personal security.

17 Detroit cops indicted for various offenses (http://www.msnbc.com/local/wdiv/A1666894.asp)

[Ladyhawk]

I am also a metro Detroiter and go to the city often for events such as the DSO, hockey and baseball games, and The Race for the Cure (which is tomorrow, by the way). Unlike Kodiak, I don't see the rebound. Yes, they're working the riverfront and Compuware is locating a huge office building downtown. But, the areas surrounding the DIA, Comerica Park, etc., look like warzones and have for years. There doesn't seem to by any immediate plans to knock down some of these abandoned homes and industrial buildings. I grew up in the city and now live in a suburb. I don't see anyone in a big hurry to move back there. The taxes and cost of newer housing are outrageous! The DPD and Mayor Kilpatrick's latest escapades haven't helped Detroit's reputation, either. Having been to many other large cities across the US. it's my opinion that Detroit has a long, long way to go before it can ever become a Chicago. In fact, I think Detroit's glory days are behind her. I hope I'm wrong...:(

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Having been to many other large cities across the US. it's my opinion that Detroit has a long, long way to go before it can ever become a Chicago.

I have to agree with you there...Detroit has quite a way to go.

[Kodiak]

2002 report on the state of Detroit's neighborhoods (http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:K9_7bBkcWXMJ:mnpartnership.org/PDFs/2002_STATE_OF_THE_NEIGHBORHOODS_REPORT.pdf+detroit %27s+neighborhoods+on+the+rebound&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

[subgenius]

BTW my brother was in charge of Internal Affairs before the last guy (who was fired) and he is the one responsible for building the cases against the police recently indicted.
He was sent to "Siberia" for getting too high up in the corruption.
A true hero.

[Doubt]

The best incentive to re-develop the city would be a green belt out in the ‘burbs.

Fat chance on that happening anytime in the near future. Urban sprall will just have to take its course.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Doubt
The best incentive to re-develop the city would be a green belt out in the ‘burbs.

Fat chance on that happening anytime in the near future. Urban sprall will just have to take its course.

Could you better describe this "green belt"? We have half a dozen Metroparks in the tri-county (Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb for you non-residents) area, but I'm not sure that is what you are referring to.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Could you better describe this "green belt"? We have half a dozen Metroparks in the tri-county (Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb for you non-residents) area, but I'm not sure that is what you are referring to.

Greenbelts are no development zones. Not just parks. If the developers cannot keep pushing outward they would have to find some other available land to build. The whole purpose is to check urban sprall.

This would have to implemented at the state level and involve major interference in local political control. That alone would kill the idea here.

We could almost get the same effect by having the state and county refuse to develop new roads that support sprall.


Edited to add:

Here is a UK site for green belt advocacy. The only place I know of that has one in the US is Portland Oregon. Normally Greenbelts are implemented for environmental reasons. Here is would be used as a form of State level zoning law.

www.greenbelt-news.org.uk

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Doubt


Greenbelts are no development zones. Not just parks. If the developers cannot keep pushing outward they would have to find some other available land to build. The whole purpose is to check urban sprall.

This would have to implemented at the state level and involve major interference in local political control. That alone would kill the idea here.

We could almost get the same effect by having the state and county refuse to develop new roads that support sprall.

A green belt sounds great to me, but with the current population density in suburban areas, it would half to be outside the area of this map:




http://www.mikeshannon.com/_borders/map_of1.gif

[Doubt]

The western part would fit the map. There is still a limited amount of development in that area. The Northern boundary is quite far off the map. (I can still ride a bike from Northville to Ann Arbor using 7 Mile road and Whitmore Lake road.)

But the local control issues would kill it the moment the bill hit the state legislature. Limiting roads would be the more effective tool but would still be hard to pull off. Many people and development firms sill buy up undeveloped land to subdivide for sale. I does not cost that much to lobby a State senator and there is a lot of money to be made pushing development outward.

Cheaper to rip out trees and put in new infrastructure than to rebuild the old stuff for now.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Doubt
The western part would fit the map. There is still a limited amount of development in that area. The Northern boundary is quite far off the map. (I can still ride a bike from Northville to Ann Arbor using 7 Mile road and Whitmore Lake road.)

But the local control issues would kill it the moment the bill hit the state legislature. Limiting roads would be the more effective tool but would still be hard to pull off. Many people and development firms sill buy up undeveloped land to subdivide for sale. I does not cost that much to lobby a State senator and there is a lot of money to be made pushing development outward.

Cheaper to rip out trees and put in new infrastructure than to rebuild the old stuff for now.

Great... :(

Is there any, more feasible, alternative? What keeps Detroit from becoming a SanFrancisco, Vancouver, or Chicago (besides no green belt)?

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Great... :(

Is there any, more feasible, alternative? What keeps Detroit from becoming a SanFrancisco, Vancouver, or Chicago (besides no green belt)?

Well, anything that would spur more investment in the city would help.

Decay tends to feed on itself. Especially when you consider the tax burden of supporting the city infrastructure with a declining population and poor business climate.

Unfortunately, most of the available solutions involve actions by the state. Taking over the school district was one thing that could help in the long run. I am not so sure about the plans to take over the city water system.

I wonder what would happen if the city government were dissolved and they started all over again. I am sure the short term results would be very painful. What if Detroit itself was to be divided into several different municipalities with regional councils managing what used to be city functions? This would allow for some areas to partner up with each other and the suburbs to solve certain problems.

[Ladyhawk]

Doubt;

You've got some great suggestions! But, I think we have to recognize Detroit's history and reputation. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you or any (former) Detroiter the bitter feelings former Mayor Young cultivated between black and white residents of Detroit. Though not solely responsible for 'white flight', his behavior certainly didn't help. The riots in '68, 'murder capital of the world', etc., etc., etc. , equally contributed to Detroit's reputation as a "rough" city to live in.

I think Detroit needs to get diverse again and I don't know how that can be facilitated. Maybe the return of large corporations like Compuware to the downtown area will act as a catalyst to get more 'suburbanites' to consider living in Detroit Proper again. Certainly the school system has to undergo major reform to get folks to consider living in Detroit again. But, I think some of the ideas you propose could go a long way in getting us there...

Hey...maybe you should run for Mayor!!!

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
Doubt;

You've got some great suggestions! But, I think we have to recognize Detroit's history and reputation.

* snip *

Hey...maybe you should run for Mayor!!!

Running for mayor would be hard to do since I live in Westland.
(Where part of town are you in anyway?)

I am from Pontiac and got to see all the same things happen on a smaller scale. Much like Detroit, downtown Pontiac is looking better. But the area around it is still in big trouble. Pontiac had its biggest failure happen a bit more recently when they dumped the city manager format and went to a strong mayor system.

Having professionals run a city under the supervision of an elected government is better then letting the politicians run it directly. But that one won’t happen anytime soon.

I am not sure that dissolving the city is really a good idea. But it is one that I don’t think anyone is looking at since it pretty much hits the “third rail of politics” category. It was bad enough when somebody came up with the idea of mothballing parts of the city that are under populated to save money.

One more idea that should be looked at for effective mass transit. In some South American cities they have built priority bus systems. They isolate lanes of traffic with concrete barriers for the busses and don’t stop at every little street corner. It functions more like a subway / light rail system but at much lower cost. They buses are even on time. That one would solve many problems.

[jj]

Originally posted by Kodiak


I have to agree with you there...Detroit has quite a way to go.

Detroit.

Youngstown.

What's the difference?

[jj]

Originally posted by Doubt



Here is a UK site for green belt advocacy. The only place I know of that has one in the US is Portland Oregon.

Boulder, Colorado. Since the 1960's.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by jj


Detroit.

Youngstown.

What's the difference?

Latitude?

[jj]

Originally posted by Doubt


Latitude?

Lessee....

Detroit - N42 19 67 W 83 02 05
Youngstown - N 41 05 75 W 80 38 54

More longitude, I think.

Changes in attitudes,
Changes in Lattitudes,

I guess . . .