The US-Mexico Border Fence [Archive]

Puggy

26th October 2006, 10:42 PM

Me being Mexican, and plenty here US citizens, I'd love to hear any comments on this bill that just got signed. I have to admit that I'm not a very political person, but I'm just curious what my fellow skeptics think about this issue.

My take on this is that Mexico/South America has a lot of poor people, but that it's not the US' fault, or at least not all. My perception is that the USA is very generous with its illegal immigrants. While listening to John and Ken (on conservative talk radio station kfi 640, that's about the only mildly entertaining english-speaking station I get at my city) it would seem that illegals are draining resources from the US, is this true? Is the cost of them being over there a bigger burden than not having them there?

Over here, we have plenty of jobs (badly payed for uneducated folks, and better payed, but much less than in the US, for educated people, but jobs nonetheless), but it seems that the (true) rumors about making more money over there (US) makes the decision easier for the uneducated. They earn as much or more than me!.

I have a masters in computer networks with a bachelors in computer science, and I'm planning on a doctorates. I have a somewhat well payed job, but could earn double or triple if I moved to the US. I would love to move over there, but my need to educate people is what's keeping me here. Everything is more expensive here, considering that the wages are about hald to a third lower than in the US... So I guess this is a common feeling, You know, the "greener grass" syndrome.

Does this problem have a more sane and "simple" solution, or does the solution involve building a fence and lots of patroling as a necessary component? BTW, I do support the US' freedom to put whatever fence they want, also they can make laws about anything, even making illegal immigrants criminals, but I'm wondering if it's the only way...

Thanks.

pipelineaudio

26th October 2006, 11:21 PM

With more people like you in Mexico, that seem to look to the future instead of wanting to steal, we wont need a fence. I applaud you

I'd like to clarify your post that illegal immigrants (aka trespassers, criminal invaders, violaters of sovereingty) are by definition criminals, and in order to stay here and live need to keep commiting crimes, such as identity theft, working illegally, falsifying documents, driving unlicensed, uninsured, etc...

I dont know if it costs america as a whole, more to pay for the criminals than we save from them, but for 100% sure, those of us in the border states are devastated for having to pay for them.

I am so glad to see someone like you, and indeed meeting more and more of like mind. In Arizona we are hearing more and more about mexican community leaders who are saying "lets make Mexico a place people want to come to, rather than escape from"

Not saying its going to be an easy ride, but I'd WAY rather pay to help you guys fix up your country, than to pay for the medical care and food and rent for the guy who is stealing my car, my social security and my happiness

Many Americans have no idea how incredibly beautiful Mexico is, because of the incredible filth and treachery coming thru our borders

Puggy

27th October 2006, 12:00 AM

With more people like you in Mexico, that seem to look to the future instead of wanting to steal, we wont need a fence. I applaud you

:blush:

I'd like to clarify your post that illegal immigrants (aka trespassers, criminal invaders, violaters of sovereingty) are by definition criminals, and in order to stay here and live need to keep commiting crimes, such as identity theft, working illegally, falsifying documents, driving unlicensed, uninsured, etc...

Yes, You and I agree on this subject. Ironically, the Mexican government does a terrible job with our own illegal immigrants that come from South America. The police usually robs, beat, and extorts them, and the government doesn't help them, but when a fellow Mexican is beaten by a US immigration officer, after the illegals threaten the officers, all hell breaks loose.

I am so glad to see someone like you, and indeed meeting more and more of like mind. In Arizona we are hearing more and more about mexican community leaders who are saying "lets make Mexico a place people want to come to, rather than escape from"

I hardly ever find fellow Mexicans that feel that way. It seems that they're always pushing for the pro-immigration stuff instead of trying to fix the real problems, and almost all mexicans hate the US because You guys "robbed" lots of our property, sigh. We really are that stupid.

Not saying its going to be an easy ride, but I'd WAY rather pay to help you guys fix up your country, than to pay for the medical care and food and rent for the guy who is stealing my car, my social security and my happiness

We have many BIG problems, but two very important ones are lots of corruption and below average education system. Both are going to take a while to fix, but a can see it happening.

Many Americans have no idea how incredibly beautiful Mexico is, because of the incredible filth and treachery coming thru our borders

I mostly agree, but please be careful with the generalizations...

Cheers! :D

steverino

27th October 2006, 12:11 AM

The president of Mexico said our building a fence is like building a Berlin Wall. Wouldn't it be the other way around...We want to keep people from sneaking in, not out. East Germany had the crappy country, not us.

Puggy

27th October 2006, 12:20 AM

Yeah, my president is just playing the crowd. Sadly, that's what most of my country(wo)men think. :(. Almost all arguments are emotional, no logic there.

fishbob

27th October 2006, 12:40 AM

I'd like to clarify your post that illegal immigrants (aka trespassers, criminal invaders, violaters of sovereingty) are by definition criminals, and in order to stay here and live need to keep commiting crimes, such as identity theft, working illegally, falsifying documents, driving unlicensed, uninsured, etc...

I would like to expand on your post. The American companies and employers that hire illegals are also criminals. Worse criminals in my opinion, because they knowingly encourage illegals to come over, put US citizens out of work, depress US wages, do not pay their share of the FICA taxes, insurance costs, and other normal business expenses. Cheating scumwads far worse than non-citizens willing to illegally work for higher pay.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 01:13 AM

Thanks fishbob!

Every once in a while, some maverick places 1800's "wanted" style posters of employers of illegals, but always get in trouble. The employer will claim they didnt know, or some crazy enablers will come to his aid.

The employers who knowingly do this need to be deported themselves, antarctica maybe.

Its a downward cycle, as soon as one guy does it, they ALL gotta do it, if your competitor can thru illegal labor put out a house for 40,000 when you need 100,000, what do you do?

Our schools are history, yet the guys who hire illegals in large numbers are also famous for media mugshots donating this or that to a school, while that school's kids' parents are begging for scraps since their jobs are gone.

The minutemen have been trying here to identify and punish the employers. Its slow going.

Puggy, Im an amatuer herpetologist, how's the lizard watching in your neck of the woods? Ours are going to bed for the winter here

Tricky

27th October 2006, 03:34 AM

I'm against punishing people who are trying to find a better life, but even if I wasn't, the fence is a bad idea. Expensive and ineffective, it won't do much of anything to slow down illegal immigration.

The easy solution (as Pipline alluded to) is to punish the people who employ illegals. And it can't be that difficult. With the enormous power of the internet and massive databases, it should be relatively easy to check on the credentials of any potential employee.

But we don't, and the reason we don't is because the powers in Washington only use illegal immigration as a scapegoat. They don't dare attack the big companies who would see their profits plummet if they were punished for hiring them. It is hypocricy at its worst. Illegals don't make campaign contributions and they are (relatively) easy to punish without much backlash, so that is who the conservatives lash out at. Not agrobuisness. Not the construction industry. Not the food service industry. Neither do they seem to acknowledge that the cost of living would take a sharp upturn without "illegal" labor.

The fence is an expensive election investment. It is no kind of solution.

Bill Thompson

27th October 2006, 03:48 AM

Dave1001

27th October 2006, 04:10 AM

I think that the fense is a bad idea. The evil neo cons are being selfish and racist.

But, at the same time, the comment of it being like the Berlin wall seems to suggest we are already two halves of one country. This might be a good omen.

Wow, Bill Thompson, I completely agree. In my opinion, pretty much any one with the leisure time and inclination to post on this forum isn't going to be harmed by undocumented Mexican migration -you're going to benefit. I say no fence, let's let the labor market determine if Mexicans want to come to or leave America. It's not like they're going to start replacing scientists, doctors, lawyers, librarians, journalists, engineers, and whoever else makes up the JREF forum membership.:p

BPSCG

27th October 2006, 05:23 AM

I'm against punishing people who are trying to find a better life, but even if I wasn't, the fence is a bad idea. Expensive and ineffective, it won't do much of anything to slow down illegal immigration.Well, we won't know that for sure until we build it, will we? I hate to drag the @#$ Berlin Wall into this, as it was built to kep people imprisoned, which the U.S. wall manifestly is not, but the Berlin Wall did effectively choke off the flow of people in and out of East Berlin. And Israel's West Bank wall has been similarly effective. Neither was/is perfect, but if you reject every imperfect solution to every problem, you end up rejecting every solution to every problem.

The easy solution (as Pipline alluded to) is to punish the people who employ illegals. That's the "easy" solution. It's only failing is that it won't work, as long as the economic incentives for hiring illegals outweigh the disincentives. Them nasty old Big Businesses will pass on the cost to the consumer. And small businesses? Well, how about a real life example? We had some work done on our house this week. Low bidder was a guy from Guatamala who I'm sure is legal, since he advertises on the web, is insured, bonded, has all the licenses, all that stuff. His bid was about half what the next higher contractor bid, so we hired him. He had two assistants working with him, neither of whom spoke more than a few words of English, and we have little doubt they were illegals.

Multiply this contractor by thousands, even tens of thousands, all over the country. Who's going to report them? Do you think Mrs. BPSCG and I called ICE to tell them we suspected our contractor had illegals? Is the government going to hire tens of thousands of new inspectors to harry small contractors doing one-day jobs (and raise taxes accordingly to pay the inspectors' salaries)?

And it can't be that difficult. With the enormous power of the internet and massive databases, it should be relatively easy to check on the credentials of any potential employee.Except that ACLU would scream bloody murder the minute you tried to "invade people's privacy" by allowing employers to key in on someone's SSN. Don't misunderstand; I think it would be a good idea - would certainly make prosecution of companies hiring illegals a lot easier ("Don't give us that nonsense that you didn't know Diego was illegal...") - but the devil, as always, is in the details.

But we don't, and the reason we don't is because the powers in Washington only use illegal immigration as a scapegoat. They don't dare attack the big companies who would see their profits plummet if they were punished for hiring them. Oh, please, stop with the "nasty Big Business Conspiracy Guys who secretly control the gummint are screwing the country" meme. The big companies would just figure out how much they expect it would cost them per year in fines, and work that into their cost structures. Then deduct those expenses from their net income reported to the IRS at the end of the year. It would cause a small uptick in the nationwide cost of living, and a small drop in their profits. It would not solve the illegal immigrants problem.

The problem is as Puggy stated: Corrupt Mexican government. Because it's not that Mexicans don't want to work - they're all over here because they want to work. In America, even if you have little education and don't speak the language, as long as you work hard, you can be better off than if you stay in Mexico. It stinks, but the long-term solution lies south of the border, not north of it.

Q-Source

27th October 2006, 08:18 AM

The problem is as Puggy stated: Corrupt Mexican government. Because it's not that Mexicans don't want to work - they're all over here because they want to work. In America, even if you have little education and don't speak the language, as long as you work hard, you can be better off than if you stay in Mexico. It stinks, but the long-term solution lies south of the border, not north of it.

I agree to a certain extent, illegal immigration is not really caused by a corrupt Mexican government, although in some cases it might be true. It is the inefficiency of the government policies to stimulate economic growth. More resources are needed in the education system to prepare the labour force, more resources are needed to increase investment and generate employment.

From my point of view, what the US government should do is to stress in its discourse that illegal immigration is a result of the Mexican government's failure to create jobs and improve the living standards of its population. It sounds very simple but it would have enourmous repercussions at the political level. Place the responsability on the Mexican government.

WildCat

27th October 2006, 08:35 AM

I would like to expand on your post. The American companies and employers that hire illegals are also criminals. Worse criminals in my opinion, because they knowingly encourage illegals to come over, put US citizens out of work, depress US wages, do not pay their share of the FICA taxes, insurance costs, and other normal business expenses. Cheating scumwads far worse than non-citizens willing to illegally work for higher pay.
If only it were so simple. I'm in the construction business, and there is a lot of pressure on prices, and this pressure comes from the customers. Give an estimate, and 95% of potential customers will pick the lowest estimate. For many, it comes down to hiring illegals or going out of business. Perhaps your "cheating scumwads" statement should also be directed at the customers of those who hire illegals...

WildCat

27th October 2006, 08:41 AM

They don't dare attack the big companies who would see their profits plummet if they were punished for hiring them.
See my response above Tricky. In my business (construction) it's not about your profits plummeting, but about staying in business period. Not many people getting rich in this business any more, in fact I'm at the verge of getting out entirely. And what to do about the companies owned by illegals?

And despite you're desire to go after the companies, and not the illegals, it is impossible to go after one w/o also going after the other. Because if you go after the companies, you put the illegals out of work.

Beerina

27th October 2006, 09:20 AM

I agree to a certain extent, illegal immigration is not really caused by a corrupt Mexican government, although in some cases it might be true.

More accurately, the lack of better jobs there that's making a move to the US sound appealing is due largely to a corrupt Mexican government. When businesses are tied up giving massive kickbacks to the police and officials (all on top of any official socialist concepts getting in the way of economic development) you end up not with a South Korea, but a North.

Darth Rotor

27th October 2006, 09:30 AM

Pescado

27th October 2006, 10:21 AM

First of all, before delving into the OP, I'd like to address some related issues that have been presented in this thread thus far. As a person who has met many Mexicans who are in this country illegally, let me say that some of the insensitive generalizations and name-calling in this thread about this population of people is more than a little bit repulsive to me. In my (quite extensive) experience, the vast majority of illegal Mexican immigrants are kind, upstanding, family-oriented, hard-working people that I can honestly relate to better than many upper-middle or upper class fellow Americans. As a matter of fact, my college educated girlfriend of six years is the child of immigrants who were at one point in time in this country illegally. The Mexicans who illegally enter this country to work are basically conservative country boys/girls, like I was raised, who American conservatives have a lot more in common with than they think, if they could see past immigration issues, and vice versa. I'd also like to add, just for the record, that if I could make $400,000/year instead of $40,000/year by illegally crossing into Canada and technically breaking a law, you better believe that I would go to to extremes to do it.

With that being said, let me also say that I don't deny that illegal immigrantion is an issue that needs to be addressed. I don't know anything about the actual research behind this border wall(if any exists), but if it will actually work, then I am all for it. Obviously we need to know who is coming into this country, and sharing a porous border with a developing country doesn't facilitate that. It is also my opinion, however, that once this border wall is built, legal immigration or guest-worker opportunities should be increased substantially for uneducated Mexicans. It is no secret that important industries rely on Mexican labor, namely agriculture, which is basically nothing but Mexican immigrants, at least around here.

The most important thing, though, that some other posters in this thread have already commented on, is that we need to do more to change Mexico for the better, so that Mexicans won't mind living there. It is no surprise that the Mexican government doesn't care about improving their own country to slow illegal immigration. Every time a poor, uneducated, unemployed person leaves the country, the country's per-capita wealth bumps up the tiniest bit. Not to mention that Mexican nationals sending US currency back to Mexico is the second largest source of revenue for Mexico(!!), after oil. Why should the Mexican government kill its cash cow? The government isn't just playing to the populace, as Puggy has said, when they come out against the border wall or any other measure that hopes to stem illegal immigration into the US. They are just looking out for themselves on an issue that happens to play well with the people as well. Is it any wonder that the Mexican goverment has no interest in fundamentally improving the country, economically and otherwise, when they are already reaping the benefits of a vastly superior economy without lifting a finger? In this regard, a border wall may actually benefit the nation of Mexico in that it will force the country's government to improve its own economy, since US currency will be harder and harder for the government of Mexico to get without any effort as time goes on. This will then force the government of Mexico to actually take a look in the mirror and fundamentally change things, especially education.

PS: From what I know of education in Mexico(girlfriend works at a school that is 75% Mexican students), if a child does not attend school in Mexico for the first few years of education, they are then not allowed to participate in the education system. I believe the cutoff is 6th grade. So if a kid is with his parents in the US for a few years, then they return to Mexico, their child is then not allowed to be enrolled in Mexican schools. Some incentive to return to Mexico, eh?

WildCat

27th October 2006, 10:41 AM

I want to have your children. :) Oh, wait, I can't. :eek: Anyway, well said.

DR
And I'm sure you and fishbob will feel the same when it comes time to find a contractor for that new kitchen.

Axenos

27th October 2006, 10:41 AM

Quick opinion:

1. It's all political.

2. If they wanna be here, they're gonna get here, fence or no fence.

Thanks for your time.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 10:43 AM

Any idiots who call those against criminals

yes CRIMINALS

racist are completly clueless

You should probably take notice it is the legal hispanic community (both immigrants and native born) in my state who are at the forefront of fighting this CRIME

They are the ones who suffer the most. Everyone once in a while youll hear some bozo say it is the president's stand on abortion that got the hispanics to switch to the republican party, funny though, the big switch was while clinton was president and they lost all their jobs. Not that the republicans are doing anything about it either, but there are a few senators in the republican party with the courage to make it an issue

For all you enablers, co conspirators, aiders and abetters, how bout I walk into your house and take all your stuff? Hey its not a crime, Im just immigrating to your house and taking what I want

If were not going to fight THIS crime, why should we fight any crime?

As for this damn fence:

I dont want it. For one thing, its not going to work if the mexican government is just going to poke holes in it so they can offload their worst problems onto us

Also Im not thrilled about the environmental impact of this fence. For anyone who hasnt been to the mexico/arizona border, it is one of the most beautiful places in the world, with some amazing wildlife. Except for the risk of getting shot by a coyote or a mule, or some other mexican thief, its a really cool place to visit

Regarding busting people for hiring illegals, its NOWHERE near as easy as it might at first appear. Those who try it are attacked pretty severely by all manner of kooks and politicians

But i agree, it should be done

Pescado

27th October 2006, 11:01 AM

Has anybody used the R word at all in this thread?

Sure, illegal immigrants are criminals. So am I for a myriad of minor crimes I've committed through the years, like most other people. This doesn't make people looking for a better life into terrible people. As far as one crime equating to all other crimes, I think you really lost it there, Pipe. By that logic, jaywalkers are no better than rapists. I don't think you really believe that.

And come on now, you are calling a diverse population of 13million people in the United States, "incredible filth" and you really think that it is okay? It is offensive, and I'm sure most people can see why.

Illegal immigration from Mexico is a certainly a problem that needs to be addressed. However, taking the issue personally is folly, in my opinion. People can live a life that is better than anything they could have ever imagined in their home country by breaking a law that is rarely enforced. Even if it technically makes them criminals, do you really think they care? I know that I wouldn't.

fishbob

27th October 2006, 11:07 AM

That's the "easy" solution. It's only failing is that it won't work, as long as the economic incentives for hiring illegals outweigh the disincentives.

Disincentives - long enough jail time and big enough fines.

I am inclined to consider some sort of disincentives for clients of companies that hire illegals. Something along the lines of throwing out low-bids from cheating contractors (when detected) and requiring contract awards to the lowest legitimate contractor. Lost productivity and messed up schedules on top of paying a fair price instead of a cheap price might be disincentive enough.

fishbob

27th October 2006, 11:09 AM

If only it were so simple. I'm in the construction business, and there is a lot of pressure on prices, and this pressure comes from the customers. Give an estimate, and 95% of potential customers will pick the lowest estimate. For many, it comes down to hiring illegals or going out of business. Perhaps your "cheating scumwads" statement should also be directed at the customers of those who hire illegals...

See my previous post.
I am in complete agreement.

fishbob

27th October 2006, 11:11 AM

And despite you're desire to go after the companies, and not the illegals, it is impossible to go after one w/o also going after the other. Because if you go after the companies, you put the illegals out of work.

Exactly. Supply and demand in action - no jobs for illegals, then maybe they go home.

Renfield

27th October 2006, 11:16 AM

I think that, in order to be fair, and to eliminate any suspicion of bigotry on the part of the US, we should simply adopt Mexico's immigration laws as our own.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1721728/posts?page=7

Certainly Mexico's leaders and its people couldn't have a problem with that? They feel like they are not getting treated fairly - this is one solution that would be difficult to criticize.

fishbob

27th October 2006, 11:16 AM

And I'm sure you and fishbob will feel the same when it comes time to find a contractor for that new kitchen.

I make a point to only take bids from people that I think are reputable.
In business and in my personal life. Receiving a a strangely low bid is a sure sign that the contractor made a mistake or is cutting corners. I don't want to have to pick up the pieces behind either scenario. Been there, done that, and in the long run, it costs you more.

Pescado

27th October 2006, 11:17 AM

I agree that illegal immigration needs to be curtailed, and I am open to different options.

However, what happens when overnight 4% of the US population loses their livelihood because of hardline employment laws? Would they simply move right back to Mexico? Or would these people stay in the US, and choose to live in American poverty rather than Mexican poverty? I don't doubt that it would be effective in ending hiring of illegal immigrants, but would it be worth it in the hit that the country would take by having 13 million people who are permanantly unemployed? Also, would it be morally wrong to do this, and put families out on the street, because they did not follow proper procedure to enter the country? I would have a hard time with it, personally. I think many other Americans would as well. But if not for things like these, what else can we do to improve the situation? It's a catch 22.

I'm not trying to be cute, I am honestly looking for opinions here. What would logically happen if, hypothetically, new hardline laws restricting employment of illegal immigrants came into effect that actually worked? Seems like the cure might be worse than the affliction.

Darth Rotor

27th October 2006, 11:19 AM

And I'm sure you and fishbob will feel the same when it comes time to find a contractor for that new kitchen.
I fired, and reported to INS, the contractor who bid on my roof job 4 years ago. When the work crew showed up, and the one guy (who I knew from a few odd jobs before) had with him 4 foreigners who did not speak English. I smelled a rat. So, I asked for their credentials. The foreman didn't have them. I called the man who ran the company. I met with him. I did not get what I asked for. We had a tense meeting that did not end all that well.

I wasn't sure if he'd try to sue for the value of the job that I had cancelled. He didn't.

That roof job ended up costing me just over $600 more, three months and two more bids later. Nothing good came of this, as my wife had this opinion of my going high and right on the topic: everyone else just does it and looks the other way. She wasn't happy with the higher cost, nor the longer wait.

DR

Renfield

27th October 2006, 11:20 AM

Quick opinion:

1. It's all political.

2. If they wanna be here, they're gonna get here, fence or no fence.

Thanks for your time.

yeah, its so damn stupid. Fencing off a third of the border is about as effective as building a damn that spans a third of a river.

Someone will get a fat contract out of it though, and i guess the politicians will be able to say they are doing something.

WildCat

27th October 2006, 11:27 AM

I fired, and reported to INS, the contractor who bid on my roof job 4 years ago. When the work crew showed up, and the one guy (who I knew from a few odd jobs before) had with him 4 foreigners who did not speak English. I smelled a rat. So, I asked for their credentials. The foreman didn't have them. I called the man who ran the company. I met with him. I did not get what I asked for. We had a tense meeting that did not end all that well.

I wasn't sure if he'd try to sue for the value of the job that I had cancelled. He didn't.

That roof job ended up costing me just over $600 more, three months and two more bids later. Nothing good came of this, as my wife had this opinion of my going high and right on the topic: everyone else just does it and looks the other way. She wasn't happy with the higher cost, nor the longer wait.

DR
In 20 years in the business, I've never encountered anyone who did what you did. 99% of people just pick the lowest bid, and it's worse now that so many plan on moving in a year or 2 anyway and so don't really give a damn about the quality of the job.

And it's even worse when your competitor not only hires illegals, but are also owned by illegals!

Time for me to get out of the business I think...

Darth Rotor

27th October 2006, 11:32 AM

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 11:33 AM

Has anybody used the R word at all in this thread?

Yes, check post #9

This sis why no serious discussion can occur, some woo woo religious nut comes in and pollutes the whole thing (yes PC is a religion)

Pescado

27th October 2006, 11:36 AM

Yes, check post #9

Ya, I see it now. I had actually seen it before, but when he used the phrase "evil neo cons" I couldn't take it seriously and assumed he was being facetious. Guess I was wrong...

In any case, care to respond to any of the other points I've made?

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 11:43 AM

In 20 years in the business, I've never encountered anyone who did what you did. 99% of people just pick the lowest bid, and it's worse now that so many plan on moving in a year or 2 anyway and so don't really give a damn about the quality of the job.

And it's even worse when your competitor not only hires illegals, but are also owned by illegals!

Time for me to get out of the business I think...

There are some "safe" bets. But its driving the economy in WEIRD directions. I'll give one example I encounter a lot: auto machine shops

General machine shops here have taken to hiring illegals for the brunt of the work. Since this is a non union state, the mechanics who lose their jobs leave or turn to who knows what to make money. Of course its SO MUCH BETTER that a *illegal mexican* feeds his family than an american because *illegal mexicans* are a superior race who is above the law according to some in this thread, but I digress

There is a sizeable hot rod community here and they will NOT take their cars to be worked on by illegals. A hot rodder/engine builder relationship is built on years of trust, even highly credentialed noobs to the scene have a hard time getting this sort of work.

Of course, the legal machine shop cannot keep his brick and mortar and compete against illegal mexicans for general machine work, so we move on to another paradigm that is related to this crime:

The shop owner cans all his workers and moves his shop to home.

Youll see this here in AZ, where nearly all of the super builders have set up shop in their own garages and only do specialty engines. Of course this isnt the only business this happens to, but it sucks when you wonder how the next generation of machinists are going to learn their trade.

Renfield

27th October 2006, 11:51 AM

What annoys me is that there is so little consistency in how we handle all this. Why even bother with green cards if you let people who sneak into this country illegaly go to schools, take out government subsidized loans, etc. According to the supreme court, they shouldn't be entering the country illegaly, but once they do they have an actual right to go to American schools, and the school has to pay for translators and ESL teachers. Strange. In Mexico, if you're in the country illegaly, they really do treat you like a criminal, even if you haven't done anything else. Ok, since they did break the law I can understand that. Yet they want their people treated differently here in the US. None of it makes sense to me.

And what good is building a fence or putting more guards at the boarder going to do? As long as they have a motive to get across, they'll find a way.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 11:53 AM

However, what happens when overnight 4% of the US population loses their livelihood because of hardline employment laws? Would they simply move right back to Mexico?

Hopefully they wouldnt move back to mexico, hopefully they would be SENT back to mexico

Dont do the CRIME if you cant do the time

I don't doubt that it would be effective in ending hiring of illegal immigrants, but would it be worth it in the hit that the country would take by having 13 million people who are permanantly unemployed?

Have you heard Arizona has being fined one million dollars per day, for not having enough ESL (ESL means SPANISH, not any other language, just spanish) teachers?

I REALLY think we can afford to do without that.

Have you seen the decimation our health care system has taken, paying for criminals?

Those two costs, all by themselves would CERTAINLY put our economy back on track.

But hey, lets replace those workers, with legal ones and all of a sudden we have money going back into our economy!

Awesome!

Any numbers game you try to play in favor of keeping criminals in the country, you will lose

Also, would it be morally wrong to do this, and put families out on the street, because they did not follow proper procedure to enter the country?

So would it be morally wrong to put me in jail for me stealing your car, simply because I didnt follow the procedure of asking you first?

If we are going to selectively enforce laws, lets just not enforce any laws

I would have a hard time with it, personally. I think many other Americans would as well. But if not for things like these, what else can we do to improve the situation? It's a catch 22.

Thats the HARD truth. Americans are generous, and its a bitter pill to swallow.

But in this case, at least for Arizona, we have reached the breaking point. They are turning this once prosperous state into the slum they left behind. All the money is flowing OUT of the state and precious little coming in

The rest of the USA loves to belittle us and enjoys the cheap goods we make here, but WE

US

Right here in AZ are suffering for it

BPSCG

27th October 2006, 12:00 PM

And what good is building a fence or putting more guards at the boarder going to do? As long as they have a motive to get across, they'll find a way.People here keep talking like there's only one solution. Put up a fence, or prosecute employers who hire illegals, or arrest and deport illegals, or put pressure on Mexico.

And of course, every one of those solutions has its own shortcomings and raises its own problems. Why not do all of them?

Do I hear any objections?

Pescado

27th October 2006, 12:02 PM

Pipelineaudio, it seems as if you are sniping at me in your post to WildCat. I don't think anybody in this thread has stated that Mexicans are a superior race to Americans, and I certainly haven't. Your claim is a strawman.

I raised the very real question of what happens when, over night, 13 million people in this country, who are concentrated in just a few states, are still here but are no longer allowed to work? It's a legitimate question. I'm not making any moral judgements about the issue, and the question is not rhetorical.

It would have been much easier to solve this problem thirty years ago than it is today, but we didn't, and now we have to face a much more complicated situation than we did before. I'm sure it feels right to get emotional about the issue rather than facing it logically, but that won't really do us much good now, will it? That is an especially serious offense in a skeptic's forum. We have to be realistic about the situation, and find a solution to this problem that won't create other problems that might actually be worse than the one we are trying to solve. I am not saying that making it a serious crime to hire illegal immigrants might not solve the problem, maybe it will, I really don't know. However, there would certainly be other effects of this law as well, things that also need to be examined before any such law would be put into place. Simply pretending that there wouldn't be other consequences of doing something that might feel right to some people who are emotionally invested in the issue won't do anybody any good.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 12:12 PM

Pipelineaudio, it seems as if you are sniping at me in your post to WildCat. I don't think anybody in this thread has stated that Mexicans are a superior race to Americans, and I certainly haven't. Your claim is a strawman.

First of all its not directed at you.

I assure you this is NOT a strawman!!! It is a tennet of PC religion that illegal mexicans are to be treated in every way better than legals in general and whites in particular

ANY evidence to the contrary would be most welcomed

but lets look at what * I * said and what * YOU * claim to attribute to me

I said "Of course its SO MUCH BETTER that a *illegal mexican* feeds his family than an american because *illegal mexicans* are a superior race who is above the law according to some in this thread, but I digress"

You said "mexican"

Note YOU are missing the illegal part

YOU are commiting the same obfuscation that PC liars do when they claim immigration and ILLEGAL immigration are the same thing

YOU are being purposely disingenous and putting words in my mouth or ascribing attitudes about me, DECIETFULLY that I havent

Anyone with half a brain knows Arizonans are in a large part mexicans (even if only in the culture we keep)

We are PROUD of that, take a look at our styles and out architecture, our names

We are NOT proud of being host to criminals

Pescado

27th October 2006, 12:20 PM

Hopefully they wouldnt move back to mexico, hopefully they would be SENT back to mexico

I'm not sure it's possible to deport 4% of the population of the United States, so that would be a non-starter.

Have you heard Arizona has being fined one million dollars per day, for not having enough ESL (ESL means SPANISH, not any other language, just spanish) teachers?
I REALLY think we can afford to do without that.

ESL actually means English as a Second Language. I know because my girlfriend works with it. The goal of ESL, by the way, is not to seperately teach in Spanish, but to teach students English. Putting a student into a classroom where they don't understand the language doesn't do much good. Also, ESL is not only Spanish. ESL is for students of all languages who are trying to learn English. However, I do see your point, because the vast majority of students in ESL are Spanish speakers in my area, and I am sure it is the same other there in Arizona. In any case, would you rather just not allow these kids, who ARE HERE whether you like it or not, into American schools? Do you really think that could make things better?

Have you seen the decimation our health care system has taken, paying for criminals?

No, I haven't. Could you please provide some numbers on that? Sources aren't necessary if you can tell me off of the top of your head what you recall of it. I honestly don't have any clue what the numbers are.

Those two costs, all by themselves would CERTAINLY put our economy back on track.

Whose economy are you referring to? It is not as if 13 million people will disappear, and the strain will be gone. 13 million people will lose their jobs, and the strain will still exist, since they will still be using those services. Seems like it would be worse for the economy to me.

Any numbers game you try to play in favor of keeping criminals in the country, you will lose
What about a numbers game where illegal immigrants all lose their jobs, and it is not possible to deport them all back to Mexico?

So would it be morally wrong to put me in jail for me stealing your car, simply because I didnt follow the procedure of asking you first?
Come on, I already addressed this in a previous post. These crimes are not equal. How do you plan on imprisoning 13 million people, anyway?

The rest of the USA loves to belittle us and enjoys the cheap goods we make here, but WE US Right here in AZ are suffering for it
I don't argue that illegal immigration isn't a problem that needs to be addressed. I just don't think that we can take an action against 4% of the US population without serious consideration given beforehand. Just because you have strong emotional attachment to an issue doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at from all perspectives, from a logical point of view.

Pescado

27th October 2006, 12:27 PM

First of all its not directed at you.

I assure you this is NOT a strawman!!! It is a tennet of PC religion that illegal mexicans are to be treated in every way better than legals in general and whites in particular

ANY evidence to the contrary would be most welcomed

but lets look at what * I * said and what * YOU * claim to attribute to me

I said "Of course its SO MUCH BETTER that a *illegal mexican* feeds his family than an american because *illegal mexicans* are a superior race who is above the law according to some in this thread, but I digress"

You said "mexican"

Note YOU are missing the illegal part

YOU are commiting the same obfuscation that PC liars do when they claim immigration and ILLEGAL immigration are the same thing

YOU are being purposely disingenous and putting words in my mouth or ascribing attitudes about me, DECIETFULLY that I havent

Anyone with half a brain knows Arizonans are in a large part mexicans (even if only in the culture we keep)

We are PROUD of that, take a look at our styles and out architecture, our names

We are NOT proud of being host to criminals

Okay, let me rephrase. I don't think anybody in this thread has said that ILLEGAL MEXICANS are a superior race to Americans. It's still a strawman. As far as me presenting evidence to the contrary is concerned, I really think it would be better if you would rather present evidence in favor of your opinion, since that is how these things usually go.

I'm not obfuscating a thing. You used the word "race" and I used the word "Mexican" to refer to what you said. I wasn't aware that "illegal Mexicans" are of a different race than "legal Mexicans". If this was interpreted differently than I meant it, then I apologize.

Honestly though, I am losing interest in this topic as you don't seem to want to discuss the issue and possible remedies for it as much as you seem to want to vent your anger and argue from emotion. I'd appreciate it if you would take a minute to catch your breath and count to 10, and then come back to discuss this with less emotion.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 12:35 PM

ESL, in practice means ONLY spanish, again it shows how PC puts illegal mexicans as a superior race, since it is VERY telling they expect asian students to just do immersion instead of ESL

Regarding your 4% population getting unemployed you are making the GREVIOUS error that they are all emplyed, MANY are just sponges. These are criminals after all. Cases of illegal mexicans drawing welfare from multiple stolen identities dont even make the news any more as they are so commonplace

http://www.asu.edu/copp/morrison/honorment.htm (from a PC site )

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/health_care.htm (right wing site)

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=51473 (in case any PC guys doubt it is in large part our legal resident hispanic population who wants these criminals stopped)

Pescado

27th October 2006, 12:52 PM

Indeed, ESL in practice means mostly Spanish, since most students who don't speak English in our schools speak Spanish. However, speaking from personal experience, let me assure you that Asians are indeed put into the ESL program and not simply thrown into a classroom and expected to magically understand.

As far as your other point, about the entire population of illegal immigrant Mexicans in the US being employed, of course they aren't all employed. I agree that there are assuredly sponges, like in any other population. However, almost every illegal immigrant that I know works their butt off and in general, Mexicans are very hard workers who like money very much, and like to show off money even more. Consider it a cultural incentive to work hard.

Just for arguements sake, let's say that 25% of the 13 million are unemployed, which is a much larger number than probably actually exists. So ~8 million people, nearly 3% of the US population, lose their livelihood instead of 4%. That's still quite a large number that needs closer examination.

Also, you didn't address whether it would be possible to actually imprison or deport all of these people. If it isn't possible, what would happen then if these people all lost their jobs and stayed put?

Maybe it would be possible to stem illegal immigration with these types of activities and make it worth while for the US, but it certainly isn't as cut and dried as it might seem at first glance. It's a very complicated issue, and in my opinion treating it as a simple issue with a simple solution is erroneous.

MilwaukeeMike

27th October 2006, 01:21 PM

Everyone on here says they are for this, or complains against that. But when you are living in the largest economy in the world, strongest power in the world--- what ever else... You are going to always have to deal with this... Fences aren’t going to work; we know politicians aren’t going to work; very little chance Mexico is going to change anytime soon; employers and companies aren't going to give up cheap labor ;and I bet most people in this forum are going to do little more than complain that it's either too unfair, strict, illegal, and so on... If any of you truly are interested or care about this topic to the point of some people's tones on this forum go join the Minute Men, ACLU, or any other group about this issue, and stop pretending like your complaining stands for anything more than a "arm chair activist/protestor" Try running for Congress... Until then stop complaining about this issue...(I don’t ever claim to be party to any of these groups, I am just sick and tired of all this false discourse on a topic that has no single solution or end in sight) I mean, are you guys that pissed off you cant pick crops for a dollar a day now because of all the Mexicans here... Please... And don't use the terrorist excuse, 9/11 didn't happen because of the border issue... WE LET THEM IN LEGALLY!!! So with the exception of people in border states that deal with this everyday... **** the **** up please....

Thank You

luchog

27th October 2006, 01:36 PM

I dont know if it costs america as a whole, more to pay for the criminals than we save from them, but for 100% sure, those of us in the border states are devastated for having to pay for them.

As a whole, it definitely costs more money. They don't pay taxes on their income, and are disproportionate users of social benefits systems.

Some have made the claim that they're beneficial to the economy, since they spend the money they earn, and their labour results in lower prices. The latter is certainly true, but whether that's a benefit is arguable. Particularly in light of the fact that the former is wrong. While they do spend income locally, a substantial proportion is removed from the local community and transferred to Mexico.

So while their impact on the national economy may be insignificant, or even marginally beneficial; their impact on local economies is strongly negative.

However, I don't believe that the solution is to put up fences. The solution is a dramatic restructuring of social benefits regulations and immigration laws. Fewer and more stringent requirements for the former, and substantial loosening up of the latter.

luchog

27th October 2006, 01:52 PM

In my (quite extensive) experience, the vast majority of illegal Mexican immigrants are kind, upstanding, family-oriented, hard-working people that I can honestly relate to better than many upper-middle or upper class fellow Americans.?
Some are, yes. I'll even accept that a substantial majority are. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that a disproportionately huge percentage are criminals in ways other than just illegal immigration; many of them violent criminals. Illegal immigration from Mexico is one of the largest routes for the importation of illegal drugs, particularly heroin and cocaine. Violent crime is also higher in the regions with large populations of illegal immigrants.

Just like more honest Mexican workers find that they can make more money by slipping across the border into the US, Mexican criminals also find more opportunity through illegal immigration.

Indeed, ESL in practice means mostly Spanish, since most students who don't speak English in our schools speak Spanish. However, speaking from personal experience, let me assure you that Asians are indeed put into the ESL program and not simply thrown into a classroom and expected to magically understand.

Around the southern border states ESL instruction is for primarily Hispanics. Up in the northwest, it's predominantly Asians and north Africans. Few Hispanics.

luchog

27th October 2006, 01:56 PM

So with the exception of people in border states that deal with this everyday... **** the **** up please....

I would strongly suggest that you shut the h3ll up yourself, until you know what you're talking about. It's not simply the southern border states that deal with illegal immigrants. A huge number of them migrate up to the agricultural communities of the Pacific Northwest, as well as other regions of the US north of California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas.. On top of that, on the west coast we also have a major problem with illegal Asian immigrants, something that a fence simply isn't going to solve.

Pescado

27th October 2006, 01:59 PM

Some are, yes. I'll even accept that a substantial majority are. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that a disproportionately huge percentage are criminals in ways other than just illegal immigration; many of them violent criminals. Illegal immigration from Mexico is one of the largest routes for the importation of illegal drugs, particularly heroin and cocaine. Violent crime is also higher in the regions with large populations of illegal immigrants.

Just like more honest Mexican workers find that they can make more money by slipping across the border into the US, Mexican criminals also find more opportunity through illegal immigration.
Except for the part about 'disproportionately huge' amout of illegal immigrants being criminals, which we haven't seen any evidence presented for, I completely agree with you. That's one of the major reasons why we need to blunt the flow of illegal immigrants into the US, in my opinion. The question is how to do that, though. That's where it gets tricky.

Around the southern border states ESL instruction is for primarily Hispanics. Up in the northwest, it's predominantly Asians and north Africans. Few Hispanics.
Yeah, sorry, I should have clarified that. I was referring to the ESL programs that myself and Pipeline are probably familiar with, since we are both from the southwest. ESL is absolutely not only Spanish, as you say. It just appears to be so to some people who only see Spanish-based ESL because of their environment, and are biased in this regard.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 02:39 PM

Except for the part about 'disproportionately huge' amout of illegal immigrants being criminals, which we haven't seen any evidence presented for, I completely agree with you.

Im not sure where the trouble is, theyre ALL criminals

ALL ILLEGAL immigrants are CRIMINALS

in order to stay here they have to perform more criminal acts.

car insurance? hello...normally this would be anectdotal evidence but the number of people who have been victimized by hit and split illegals is too much for just anectdotal

Number Six

27th October 2006, 03:27 PM

The way I like to ask about this, since this is the way I see it, is "Why does the US prefer illegal immigration to legal immigration?" I mean, for every illegal immigrant there are lots of people that would be happy to come to the US legally and work just as hard or harder than the illegals, not to mention that 99% of the illegals would be happy to come legally too. So, considering the US can get all the legal labor it wants, why does it take illegal labor instead?

Is it simply not feasible to stop all the illegals? If so, that's kinda scary since in addition to a lot of foreigners wanting to come to the US and work, there are a lot of other foreigners wanting to come to the US and destroy. Or is it businesses that want to hire illegals? If so it seems that if a "hire legals only" rule were enforced for everyone then businesses would be happy since they wouldn't have a competitive disadvantage. Or maybe the idea is that even if they don't have a competitive disadvantage, if it increases busniess costs for everyone then it still hurts business for everyone.

I don't know but I just wish the debate were framed as "The US prefers illegal immigrants to legal ones" because that seems to me what it comes down to in the end.

Dave1001

27th October 2006, 03:40 PM

fishbob

27th October 2006, 05:38 PM

fishbob

27th October 2006, 05:41 PM

I assure you this is NOT a strawman!!! It is a tennet of PC religion that illegal mexicans are to be treated in every way better than legals in general and whites in particular

ANY evidence to the contrary would be most welcomed

I call BS.
You made the claim.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 05:43 PM

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 05:44 PM

I think I do have a solution for all of this

Lets send our entire prison population to mexico and see how they like dealing with OUR criminals!

Or better yet, just send the Carnies

fishbob

27th October 2006, 05:48 PM

I think I do have a solution for all of this

Lets send our entire prison population to mexico and see how they like dealing with OUR criminals!

Or better yet, just send the Carnies

An unworkable nutbar solution is not a solution.
I prefer BPSCGSSG's combined approach idea.

Dave1001

27th October 2006, 05:50 PM

well, what happens if a white politician says something about mexicans, illegal or not without fawning on them?

Now what happens if a hispanic media figure/politician/whatever says something untoward about "middle america/red state/conservative/pejorative word" ?

How is this threatening to white people? Doesn't anyone else notice that white people run Mexico too? All of Latin America for that matter.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 06:01 PM

An unworkable nutbar solution is not a solution.
I prefer BPSCGSSG's combined approach idea.

Surely the unworkable nutbar solution would do better than what we are doing now..at least it would save us some money. Im pretty sure the prisoners would agree to it too

fishbob

27th October 2006, 06:29 PM

Surely the unworkable nutbar solution would do better than what we are doing now..at least it would save us some money. Im pretty sure the prisoners would agree to it too

If you are saying that our current system is a unworkable and nutbarish, I will not disagree.

You can not save money trying to implement an unworkable solution.
Wait - you can not save money by having politicians implement an unworkable solution.

clarsct

27th October 2006, 06:41 PM

Couple of questions:
Why the hell are we putting a 700 mile fence along a 2100 mile border?
Who's going to build it?
Who's going to man it?

It seems like a WOMBAT to me, and for those of you not up on your initials..

Waste
Of
Money
Brains
And
Time

I find the fence to be useless. But I do think we need to make sure the immigration happening is legal. Unfortunately, we're just not willing to make the choices and sacrifices to do something about it. The border needs to be manned, not fenced.

For The Record, I have no problem with immigration. I have huge problems with illegal immigration.

pipelineaudio

27th October 2006, 07:09 PM

I like the texas camera thing

http://www.team4news.com/Global/story.asp?S=4983300

my fellow amatuer herpers would probably be happy to watch those cameras during the summer for the odd lizard or snake that goes by

Tricky

28th October 2006, 08:21 AM

That's the "easy" solution. It's only failing is that it won't work, as long as the economic incentives for hiring illegals outweigh the disincentives. Them nasty old Big Businesses will pass on the cost to the consumer.
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. It is hypocritical to blame the worker when it is Big Business that is reaping the rewards.

Well, how about a real life example? We had some work done on our house this week. Low bidder was a guy from Guatemala who I'm sure is legal, since he advertises on the web, is insured, bonded, has all the licenses, all that stuff. His bid was about half what the next higher contractor bid, so we hired him. He had two assistants working with him, neither of whom spoke more than a few words of English, and we have little doubt they were illegals.
Did this bother you? Are you knowingly (or strongly suspectingly) hiring illegals? Your example seems to indicate that you are, so how can you criticize the illegals who do the work when people like you let them do so with a nod and a wink.

Multiply this contractor by thousands, even tens of thousands, all over the country. Who's going to report them? Do you think Mrs. BPSCG and I called ICE to tell them we suspected our contractor had illegals? Is the government going to hire tens of thousands of new inspectors to harry small contractors doing one-day jobs (and raise taxes accordingly to pay the inspectors' salaries)?
Are you starting to get the picture yet? It would be outrageously expensive to end illegal labor. You know it. The GOP knows it. EVERYBODY knows it. But they refuse to come out and say it, instead, they rant against illegals who are just doing what we are asking them to do.

Except that ACLU would scream bloody murder the minute you tried to "invade people's privacy" by allowing employers to key in on someone's SSN.Now you're just being stupid. Since when has the ACLU ever said "employers have no right to ask for a social security number?" How the hell do you expect them to pay taxes? Of all the arguments I've heard, this is the dumbest.

Don't misunderstand; I think it would be a good idea - would certainly make prosecution of companies hiring illegals a lot easier ("Don't give us that nonsense that you didn't know Diego was illegal...") - but the devil, as always, is in the details. What I misunderstand is why you think this would be difficult. I can fill my taxes out on-line. Don't tell me that the US doesn't have a database of legal employees. Just check the damn thing before you hire somebody.

Oh, please, stop with the "nasty Big Business Conspiracy Guys who secretly control the gummint are screwing the country" meme. That is not actually my argument. I think that "nasty Big Business" should hire foreign workers and the gummint should acknowledge that they do. The conspiracy is that they want to pretend that they don't know how illegals help our economy so they can win votes with angry anti-immigrant voters.

The big companies would just figure out how much they expect it would cost them per year in fines, and work that into their cost structures. Then deduct those expenses from their net income reported to the IRS at the end of the year. It would cause a small uptick in the nationwide cost of living, and a small drop in their profits. It would not solve the illegal immigrants problem.
It is entirely possible to make the fines so great that companies could not afford to hire illegals. It is in fact easy to do, given the mood of the country. Problem is, politicians would lose a lot of contributions from Big Business if they did so. They don't want to "solve" this problem. They just want somebody to blame. Preferably they want to blame somebody who is poor and powerless, because they can't hit back.

The problem is as Puggy stated: Corrupt Mexican government. Because it's not that Mexicans don't want to work - they're all over here because they want to work. In America, even if you have little education and don't speak the language, as long as you work hard, you can be better off than if you stay in Mexico. It stinks, but the long-term solution lies south of the border, not north of it. You're right. It would be nice if Mexico had the robust economy of the US. Then we wouldn't have this problem at all, just like we don't have much of a problem with illegal Canadian immigrants. The difficult comes in figuring out how to make their economy robust. You want to export more of our jobs there? It's not all about corruption, BP. Mexico and much of Latin America really is poor. Poor people look for solutions. To them, the US is the solution.

I've explained how easy it would be to stop illegal labor, and I've explained what it would cost. In my opinion, the cost is too high. Obviously, that is the opinion of the politicians too, since they refuse to pass simple laws to eliminate it. They want illegal labor, and they want somebody for scapegoats so they can continue to win the votes of people who have lost their jobs to cheap labor.

It shouldn't surprise you that politicians are hypocrites, but that doesn't mean you have to buy into their smoke and mirrors act.

Tricky

28th October 2006, 08:26 AM

See my response above Tricky. In my business (construction) it's not about your profits plummeting, but about staying in business period. Not many people getting rich in this business any more, in fact I'm at the verge of getting out entirely. And what to do about the companies owned by illegals?

And despite you're desire to go after the companies, and not the illegals, it is impossible to go after one w/o also going after the other. Because if you go after the companies, you put the illegals out of work.
I agree completely. That is why it is so hypocritical to go after the illegals but not after the companies. They depend on each other.

I want you to stay in business Wildcat. If you need to hire foreign workers to do so, that should be your choice, and the workers should not live in fear because of this arrangement.

Tricky

28th October 2006, 08:39 AM

Mike B.

28th October 2006, 08:48 AM

Puggy

28th October 2006, 02:26 PM

pipelineaudio

28th October 2006, 03:04 PM

Ahh I never knew farm subsidies were doing this.

Im all for telling farmers to grow us alcohol for my musclecar if we are going to be giving them farm welfare...at least its something useful.

Those smaller greenhouse projects can be REALLY profitable with some slick marketing if they want to sell them to hippies in the american west

Im all for anything we can do to help the Mexicans. A giant, prosperous north america would be a nice rack to stand up to china. A mexico I could drive safely in with adequate health care and other things would be an unreal eco-tourism experience. As it is we only hug the border and go to the skateparks just south of the usa mexico border and I hardly go any further than that

Puggy

28th October 2006, 04:52 PM

I don't know how important this issue on agriculture is on the issue of illegal immigration, but I have a hunch that it is part of the problem. I admit that I'm bad politics, but this section on wikipedia is what has me convinced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidies:_beneficial_or_counter-productive#Criticism

Ausmerican

28th October 2006, 07:29 PM

One loophole that can and probably should be closed is the outdated notion that being born on a certain piece of ground grants you citizenship of that nation. It would not only remove some incentive but also perhaps stop pregnant women dying in the desert on the way over.

Solitaire

28th October 2006, 07:44 PM

Are you starting to get the picture yet? It would be outrageously expensive to end illegal labor. You know it. The GOP knows it. EVERYBODY knows it. But they refuse to come out and say it, instead, they rant against illegals who are just doing what we are asking them to do.

If I hire an illegal mexican to pick tomatoes in the field then I pay him about nine dollars an hour. If I hire a legal american to pick tomatoes in the the field then I pay him about twelve dollars an hour. What's the difference? One has to pay taxes on income to the state, the other doesn't. The rise in price get diluted by the added value of the manufacturing process resulting in a little less than a one time five percent rise in the cost of food on average. Inflationary, yes, but no real big crisis.

Tricky

28th October 2006, 10:14 PM

If I hire an illegal mexican to pick tomatoes in the field then I pay him about nine dollars an hour. If I hire a legal american to pick tomatoes in the the field then I pay him about twelve dollars an hour. What's the difference? One has to pay taxes on income to the state, the other doesn't. The rise in price get diluted by the added value of the manufacturing process resulting in a little less than a one time five percent rise in the cost of food on average. Inflationary, yes, but no real big crisis.
If that were the difference in pay for illegal versus legal were as small as your example suggests, then there might be no "real big crisis". As I am given to understand it, the difference, especially in things like construction jobs, is much greater. I could be wrong. Anybody got any verifiable numbers?

pipelineaudio

29th October 2006, 02:15 AM

Mike B.

29th October 2006, 03:55 AM

If I hire an illegal mexican to pick tomatoes in the field then I pay him about nine dollars an hour. If I hire a legal american to pick tomatoes in the the field then I pay him about twelve dollars an hour. What's the difference? One has to pay taxes on income to the state, the other doesn't. The rise in price get diluted by the added value of the manufacturing process resulting in a little less than a one time five percent rise in the cost of food on average. Inflationary, yes, but no real big crisis.

My understanding of the cost issue is this.

Yes, businesses make out like bandits by paying illegals very low wages "under the table."

However, the rest of the society makes up the difference by paying taxes to pay for education, emergency room medical care, welfare, etc. I just saw a Hertiage Foundation (right wing group, I know) official say that illegals cost the government around $90 billion dollars a year, and that number is growing rapidly. What they pay in taxes is much less that that.

So in effect, the taxpayers of America are subsidizing businesses who hire illegals.

luchog

29th October 2006, 02:18 PM

Im not sure where the trouble is, theyre ALL criminals

ALL ILLEGAL immigrants are CRIMINALS

in order to stay here they have to perform more criminal acts.

car insurance? hello...normally this would be anectdotal evidence but the number of people who have been victimized by hit and split illegals is too much for just anectdotal

There's a huge difference between those who are criminals simply because they are sneaking across the border illegally to find better paying jobs; and those who are already criminals, particularly violent criminals, or sneak across with primarily criminal intent. There is no comparison between an illegal migrant worker, and violent drug runners and white slavers (a large percentage of prostitutes are illegal aliens). Hit and run drivers is clearly an issue; but it's arguable whether they'd be as big an issue if immigration laws were loosened up to allow them to work here legally.

And while I don't have numbers handy, unfortunately, it's well documented that a substantial percentage of immigrants from Mexico are not simply "guest workers", but are involved in criminal activities, most notably drug running. The Mexican border is also becoming a preferred venue for smuggling in of illegal Asian immigrants as well, since the crackdown on security in most West Coast ports. Here in the Pacific Northwest there has for a long time been a major problem with illegal Asian immigrants and Asian gangs; and they are a primary source for drugs and prostitution.

luchog

29th October 2006, 02:26 PM

However, the rest of the society makes up the difference by paying taxes to pay for education, emergency room medical care, welfare, etc. I just saw a Hertiage Foundation (right wing group, I know) official say that illegals cost the government around $90 billion dollars a year, and that number is growing rapidly. What they pay in taxes is much less that that.

So in effect, the taxpayers of America are subsidizing businesses who hire illegals.

A small correction. Welfare benefits are not available to non-citizens. So illegal immigrants cannot get welfare without fraudulently claiming to be citizens, including the forged paperwork that would require (not unheard of, certainly, but not as common as some would like to believe). I'm not sure if they're able to claim benefits for children born on US soil, and thus granted citizenship automatically, as I think that varies by state.

But the fact that they are able to take advantage of free education (though with the state of education in Mexico, i have a hard time getting too worked up about that) and medical care without contributing anything to the system is a serious problem in those areas with substantial illegal immigrant populations; and a large part of the high cost of health care in those regions.

pipelineaudio

29th October 2006, 02:41 PM

A small correction. Welfare benefits are not available to non-citizens. So illegal immigrants cannot get welfare without fraudulently claiming to be citizens, including the forged paperwork that would require (not unheard of, certainly, but not as common as some would like to believe).

Actually, D.E.S. in AZ states on their applications that legal citezenship status is not an issue in application, also it states illegals will not be reported to the authorities

So, welfare is available for illegals

But they dont stop there

36th Street and McDowell, for one small for instance, you can buy all the forged documents you want. This is well known to authorities, and is alleged that this is where some al queda identities were purchased, which is one of the reasons that mesa cab driver got popped

Illegals have set up a system of multiple welfare checks per person, and its quite lucrative

luchog

31st October 2006, 05:11 PM

Actually, D.E.S. in AZ states on their applications that legal citezenship status is not an issue in application, also it states illegals will not be reported to the authorities

So, welfare is available for illegals

But they dont stop there

36th Street and McDowell, for one small for instance, you can buy all the forged documents you want. This is well known to authorities, and is alleged that this is where some al queda identities were purchased, which is one of the reasons that mesa cab driver got popped

Illegals have set up a system of multiple welfare checks per person, and its quite lucrative

Wow. I knew it was bad, but not nearly that bad. Up here, they definitely do check your status, or at least that you have the myriad of documents that a citizenship or resident alien would typically have. It's quite a struggle to get public assistance benefits, which I know personally, having been through the system a while ago because of a disability (which has since been treated and minimized).

Do you have any info on how many illegals are on welfare, and the estimated rate of welfare fraud? Sounds like I may have been conservative in my estimates of criminal activity.

Poking around on Google briefly, I found a few links.
http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?HEHS-98-30
http://amboytimes.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-first-quarter-insfbi-statistical.html
Haven't been able to verify that last one, but if true, it's truly frightening.

EBU

31st October 2006, 05:25 PM

President Bush

31st October 2006, 05:51 PM

Excellent discussion, this is what I was looking for, to read what was the opinion of well educated US citizens on this subject. Thanks guys.

I think that one of the problems that needs to be addressed is the US subsidizing its agriculture business. I mean, Mexico (and other South American countries) cant/wont subsidize it, which completely destroys the local market. It's cheaper to import it than to produce it, which leaves lots of unemployed poor people, who have no choice but to migrate...

A couple of months ago, the Mexican government gave a community of indigenous people some greenhouses, they now produce tons of tomatoes which they sell and have been living off the production.
In spanish: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/144317.html

Maybe the US can help us set up shops similar to these, so the poor would no longer feel the need to emigrate.

Just my two cents.

At NAFTA’s start date, nearly one quarter of Mexico’s active labor force was involved in the agricultural sector — about 8 million people. Under NAFTA this number fell to approximately 6.5 million by 2003. Much of Mexican agriculture — and the backbone of Mexico’s rural economy— consisted of campesinos who farmed small plots of land (called ejidos) that were permanently deeded to Mexico’s peasant farmers by the land reforms at the core of Mexico’s post-revolution 1917 Constitution. In preparation for NAFTA, Mexico was required to amend its Constitution to allow foreign ownership of land.This undermined the ejido system,allowing plots to be sold or, in most cases, seized by creditors. NAFTA also required elimination of programs that small farmers had relied on — price floor guarantees, low-interest loans and subsidies for fuel and fertilizer.

Prior to NAFTA, corn was Mexico’s most important crop, accounting for 60% of cultivated land with 3 million producers. NAFTA lifted Mexico’s quotas (that allowed corn imports only if local production did not meet national needs) and transformed them into tariffs to be phased out over 15 years. Under pressure from industrial interests seeking access to cheaper corn, however, the Mexican government chose to ignore the NAFTA timetable and effectively liberalized the sector within three years instead of 15. U.S. corn exports to Mexico have more than quadrupled since 1993, and have been sold at prices below what it cost U.S. farmers to grow it, causing in a 70% drop in the real prices paid to Mexican farmers for their corn under NAFTA.

There has, however, been little incentive or possibility for Mexican farmers to shift crops,with most continuing to produce corn until they lost their land due to debt. The subsequent decline in domestic production has left Mexico increasingly dependent on importing its staple food —corn. In 1996, the Mexican government reported that one in five Mexican children suffered from malnutrition when the U.S. corn crop was smaller than expected. If remaining tariffs, including those on corn and beans, are completely removed in 2008 as scheduled, many more Mexican farm families will be displaced,with estimates running as high as 15 million,or about one in six Mexicans. Deprived of their livelihoods, these displaced farmers have become economic migrants, in search of scarce maquila jobs, or making increasingly desperate efforts to cross the border into the U.S. Over 1600 Mexican migrants have died attempting to reach the US since 1998.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_mexico.pdf
NAFTA was supposed to help reduce Mexican illegal immigration...

The US needs to help Mexico find a way to help its farmers stay home in Guanajuato and Aguascalientes and Queretaro.

U.S. farmers, 2.7 percent of the work force, receive an average $20,000 annually. EU farmers, 4.8 percent of the work force, receive $16,000. Mexican farmers, 20 percent of the work force, receive $1,000.

What's missing from NAFTA is precisely the element that makes the EU work. The EU's regional policy pays money directly from wealthy industrial nations such as Germany to less wealthy agricultural nations such as Greece, Portugal and Spain. The result is that EU farmers stay put.

Like the U.S. farm bill, the EU subsidies violate the principles of free trade and comparative advantage, but do so for a higher cause: social stability.

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/ftaa/503.html
I predict no one will do a thing about this.

pipelineaudio

31st October 2006, 05:52 PM

Luchog, I applied for AHCCS once, and this line jumped out at me:

"Citizenship: Copies of both sides of citizenship or immigration documents for persons who want AHCCCS Health Insurance and were not
born in the United States or its territories. Receiving AHCCCS Health Insurance (except nursing home care) will not affect anyone’s
immigrant status. AHCCCS will not report any information to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS, formerly
INS)."

from http://www.ahcccs.state.az.us/Publications/Forms/Member/UniversalApp/ApplicationforAHCCCSHealthInsurance.pdf

So in other words, head down to 32nd street and McDowell, pick up one or many stolen identities and show them as you apply for ahcccs, we wont be reporting either your crime in the use of these or the fact that you dont look like the 65 year old asian lady who this was stolen from

The welfare office and department of education have similar wording

A proposition was voted passed to remove this "enabler language", but still the changes havent been made. Were having a cultural Stockholm Syndrome going on over here

Snide

31st October 2006, 06:03 PM

Tricky

1st November 2006, 05:03 AM

I read today where a town in Pennsylvania has passed an ordinance to prevent illegals from living in the town (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/31/immigration.town.reut/index.html), but it got tossed by a federal judge. The law would make it illegal for a landlord to rent to an illegal immigrant, but I'm not sure how they could enforce it. Unlike employers, landlords cannot require social security numbers before leasing, as far as I am aware. Forged documents would work just fine to acquire a lease.

Of course, the ruling will be reviewed, but it was interesting what the judge said:
"Defendant offers only vague generalizations about the crime allegedly caused by illegal immigrants but has nothing concrete to back up these claims."

Of course, being illegal is a "crime" itself, but since the illegals are being enticed to commit this crime by employers who offer them jobs, it seems that Hazleton wants to ignore the "big fish" in order to punish the minnows. Going after landlords seems chickens**t too. Lots of landlords are simply people with an extra room to rent. Why don't they take on the homebuilding industry instead of harassing people who are just trying to make ends meet?

BPSCG

1st November 2006, 10:09 AM

People here keep talking like there's only one solution. Put up a fence, or prosecute employers who hire illegals, or arrest and deport illegals, or put pressure on Mexico.

And of course, every one of those solutions has its own shortcomings and raises its own problems. Why not do all of them?

Do I hear any objections?

Here's one.

All you have to do is the number 2 on you list if you are serious only about eliminating illegal labor. That would do it. It would, in my opinion, create more problems than it solves. That's why we don't do it. Americans want cheap prices AND don't want to lose jobs. It is their unwillingness to understand economic reality that causes them to lash out at those who are fueling the "cheap prices" side of the equation.Have you thought about what would be involved in doing this?

How many federal inspectors would you have to hire nationwide?

How would you verify a prospective employee's legal status? Believe me when I tell you you can't just call up your local Social Security office and run an SSN by them and find out whether the person's legal or not; it's not simply a question of having access to the data, but rather privacy laws. SSA is forbidden to give out information about people willy-nilly; imagine the field day identity thieves would have if they could get ID info about you by just picking up the phone and calling SSA. So where's your national database of legal employees?

How much do you fine violators? Make it too small and Wal-Mart just shrugs and passes on the cost to its customers; what's a couple of million when you're making profits in the tens of billions? Make it too big and you shut down a law-abiding, tax-paying small businessman who screwed up on the wrong day.

In 2005, Uncle Sam prosecuted only about 700 employers for hiring illegals. Where is the judicial infrastructure you'll need to handle the tens of thousands of new prosecutions every year?

I think you greatly underestimate the cost and difficulty of implementing just this one solution. Do them all, and I think it becomes manageable.

pipelineaudio

1st November 2006, 12:20 PM

BPSCG one of the proposals being looked at around here to implement the Tricky Doctrine is a grace period of purging, but like you say, since law enforcement is *forbidden by law* to enquire of a person's legal resident status without "cause" I dont see how this could be accomplished

We could fix our school money problem in one day with a purge but its not going to happen :(

There is also NO WAY were going to deny emergency health care to illegals either, and thats why you keep seeing these, mostly in jest, bills sent to mexico for health care reimbursement

MilwaukeeMike

1st November 2006, 02:39 PM

I would strongly suggest that you shut the h3ll up yourself, until you know what you're talking about. It's not simply the southern border states that deal with illegal immigrants. A huge number of them migrate up to the agricultural communities of the Pacific Northwest, as well as other regions of the US north of California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas.. On top of that, on the west coast we also have a major problem with illegal Asian immigrants, something that a fence simply isn't going to solve.

Ok first, I explained that this problem will never go away, and people in the states that have declared emergencies have the only real right to complain about this...You help me make my case by mentioning asian illegals... There wall is a 1,000 mile ocean and that doesnt even stop the flow... Maybe we should mine the Atlantic or build a giant fence around North America.

Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...

pipelineaudio

1st November 2006, 02:48 PM

Lets see:

1. Hit and run - totalled car

2. No more construction jobs for winter when the recording business slows a bit

3. No more restaraunt jobs for my customers

4. Hit and run - totalled car and medical bills

5. Medical system is toast, no money left for citizens, which means I cant get govt insurance to help pay thr bills when an illegal immigrant, driving illegally hit and runs on my car

6. No more education money, I need now to deal with stupid kids instead of marginally educated ones

7. No more summertime and afterschool jobs for kids

8. My FAVORITE park, and favortie herping ground, Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument has been turned into a war zone http://www.desertinvasion.us/articles/articles_opnm.html

luchog

1st November 2006, 03:03 PM

Ok first, I explained that this problem will never go away, and people in the states that have declared emergencies have the only real right to complain about this...You help me make my case by mentioning asian illegals... There wall is a 1,000 mile ocean and that doesnt even stop the flow... Maybe we should mine the Atlantic or build a giant fence around North America.

"Declared emergencies" are political grandstanding that has nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of illegal immigration.

Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...
And how have they harmed you, or do you benefit from employing illegal labour?

As for how they've harmed me, how about the high taxes to fund law enforcement because of the criminal activity associated with illegal immigrants. A substantial majority of them are involved in gangs (our local branches of the Tangs and Triads; as well as the numerous small local gang, most prevalent among the Vietnamese communities). And there's also welfare fraud (though that's more common farther south).

Then there's the ever-increasing cost of healthcare, due to the number of illegal immigrants who use mandatory-availability emergency care without contributing a penny to the system. And while I'm on the subject, clogging up the emergency/urgent-care medical system with non-urgent problems, (since it's free and they're not allowed to turn anyone away), or just plain drug seeking, greatly increasing the wait times for those of us with true emergency requirements (like an exploding appendix).

Not to mention the fact that that ocean is every bit as permeable as the southern border, and a whole lot harder to police. It isn't a signifcant barrier to illegal immigration, as substantial illegal Vietnamese, Chinese, etc. communities amply demonstrate.

Little hint for ya sparky, not all illegal immigrants are here to work. A whole lot of them are criminals, many of them violent criminals, and they don't become productive members of society as soon as they cross the border.

And as I've pointed out before, not all of them stay in the southern states. Eastern Washington has a huge illegal immigrant community, due to the large agriculture industry. Pretty typical thoughout the US.

steverino

1st November 2006, 03:13 PM

duplicate post, sawry.

steverino

1st November 2006, 03:15 PM

Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...

1) While visiting Tucson Arizona last year my girlfriend got food poisoning from Jamba Juice and we went to the emergency room and they said the wait would be 14 hours. She was puking all over the place and getting terrible stomach cramps. We left. She toughed it out to our next vacation spot, LA. Luckily there was a clinic by LAX and we B.S.'ed our way in. The doctors were great. We got chatty with them and they said that two or three hospitals nearby had just closed because of the financial burden of free medical attention given to illegals, and that 14 hour waits were typical in cities close to the southern border.

Darth Rotor

1st November 2006, 03:18 PM

1) While visiting Tucson Arizona last year my girlfriend got food poisoning from Jamba Juice and we went to the emergency room and they said the wait would be 14 hours. She was puking all over the place and getting terrible stomach cramps. She toughed it out and we flew on to our next vacation spot, LA. Luckily there was a clinic by LAX and we B.. The doctors were great. We got chatty with them and they said that two or three hospitals nearby had just closed because of the financial burden of free medical attention given to illegals, and that 14 hour waits were typical in cities close to the southern border.

The Hospital my sister in law works in is cutting 100 jobs, partly to make up for five years sustained losses that (according to published reports from hospital) are driven by the federal mandate for ER to treat indigent, regardless of pay potential, and the immense number of indigent / uninsured, and flat out illegals in this area.

With luck, the hospital won't close down any time soon, but the problem of the Unfunded Federal Mandate is getting worse, not better.

DR

steverino

1st November 2006, 10:49 PM

Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...

My friend is a postal clerk in Santa Maria, CA., and it is her duty to give out food stamps. Many go to illegals with bogus I.D.'s and stuff, according to her. I realize there are only 12 million or so illegals, so we can afford some scamming. I worry when there are 80 million here in a few years.

fishbob

1st November 2006, 11:47 PM

Lets see:

1. Hit and run - totalled car

4. Hit and run - totalled car and medical bills

Just curious -
In a hit and run, how do you know the citizenry status of the driver that ran off?

pipelineaudio

2nd November 2006, 12:54 AM

Just curious -
In a hit and run, how do you know the citizenry status of the driver that ran off?

You dont necessarily, but you can make a pretty good guess. I would be happy to take a scientiffically controlled test and see how accurate my determinations are

The second time I knew they were illegals because I caught one and pinned him to the ground till the cops got there. Perversely, because he was an illegal, the cop couldnt do anything to him and let him go, warning me that * I * could suffer some litigation for detaining him. Were he an american citizen the cop could have held him on hit and run

Dave1001

2nd November 2006, 01:07 AM

SezMe

2nd November 2006, 01:14 AM

Large scale illegal immigration (and legal as well, but that is a different debate) substantially increases the US population. Now, tell me about any problem that is not made worse by overpopulation. Traffic. Crime. Housing costs. Health care. Low level wages. Name one.

Conversely, name a problem that is not exacerbated by increasing population.

IMO, overpopulation is the worlds biggest problem. It is the most important problem for just about any nation, including the USA. But we in the USA cannot solve the world's problem without first solving our own.

Conclusion:
1) Do everything possible to reduce illegal immigration to the USA.
2) Do everything possible to reduce legal immigration to the USA.

Then, once we have demonstrated we are serious

3) Do everything possible to reduce population growth globally.

pipelineaudio

2nd November 2006, 01:39 AM

As undocumented migration into America has risen, violent crime has dramatically fallen. So I'm skeptical of statements like "Little hint for ya sparky, not all illegal immigrants are here to work. A whole lot of them are criminals, many of them violent criminals, and they don't become productive members of society as soon as they cross the border." It seems impropable that a large percentage of undocumented migrants are violent criminals.

correlation != causation

Here, our crime has gone up

Our $ per student has gone down

Our medical system is toast

Our unemployment has gone up

Our quality of life has gone down

YOU can have all the illegals you want, as long as YOU pay for them

Im tired of paying for them

pipelineaudio

2nd November 2006, 01:40 AM

IMO, overpopulation is the worlds biggest problem. It is the most important problem for just about any nation, including the USA. But we in the USA cannot solve the world's problem without first solving our own.

I agree, plus 1000

Dave1001

2nd November 2006, 01:57 AM

correlation != causation

Here, our crime has gone up

Our $ per student has gone down

Our medical system is toast

Our unemployment has gone up

Our quality of life has gone down

YOU can have all the illegals you want, as long as YOU pay for them

Im tired of paying for them

The point correlation != causation cuts both ways and can be applied to these type of stats claims from those against undocumented migration.

pipelineaudio

2nd November 2006, 12:01 PM

Youre correct, but lets say education:

AZ is being fined 1 million dollars per day, for not being able to afford to pay a federal mandate to teach criminals in spanish. Thats just one example of how illegals are destroying the education system. Also they dont contribute to the taxes that it takes to fund schools

Our medical system? That is without argument due to the illegals

Unemployment? Again without question, the businesses are still going, those recently fired can go by the job sites and see the illegals picking up where the citizens left off

I suspect the other issues are quite related to these three factors

mumblethrax

3rd November 2006, 05:40 AM

Yeah, I really feel for you, with your 30-year unemployment low as of August.

Tailgater

3rd November 2006, 06:08 AM

I watched a special recently on the rise of mexican gangs in California over the last several years. I can't remember what channel it was on. If anyone can find info and link it, my internet load time is killing me this morning. Like many of the bottom-income groups, once they fill all the jobs (which I am fine with them taking because I won't), many turn to crime. There is a spot in Chicago I used to pass where illegals could be picked up daily for jobs. The lot was usually full half the day. Employers would pick them up by the truckload till they had enough people and the rest would walk off in to the neighborhoods once they knew there was no more work. These pop up around the city and change areas when the police start cracking down.

pipelineaudio

3rd November 2006, 07:21 AM

Yeah, I really feel for you, with your 30-year unemployment low as of August.

I KNOW you arent talking about Arizona

mumblethrax

3rd November 2006, 11:32 AM

I KNOW you arent talking about Arizona
I'm guessing you know this in the same way that you know that any student who doesn't speak English is a criminal.

Anyway, click here (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?la+04) and select "Arizona, seasonally adjusted."

pipelineaudio

3rd November 2006, 12:32 PM

I'm guessing you know this in the same way that you know that any student who doesn't speak English is a criminal.

Anyway, click here (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?la+04) and select "Arizona, seasonally adjusted."

Who says any student that doesnt speak english is a criminal?

This unemployment chart is a little interesting. How do they characterize "employed"? If they are counting jobs capped at 39 hours per week so that the employee has no health care, then this could be way more bleak than it suggests.

There is no way this state is doing as well, economically than 1996. People had hope then.

Show me some places that employ high school kids and I might believe you

Show me some construction firms that hire citizens

Show me a restaraunt, even 100 dollar a plate ones that hire citizens

Oh you mean the white collar fatcats who hire illegals are doing good? Well its all OK then

mumblethrax

3rd November 2006, 01:13 PM

Who says any student that doesnt speak english is a criminal?

AZ is being fined 1 million dollars per day, for not being able to afford to pay a federal mandate to teach criminals in spanish.

In fact, the mandate is to provide adequate secondary English-language education, your conflation of "student" and "criminal" notwithstanding.

This unemployment chart is a little interesting. How do they characterize "employed"?
The unemployment rate measures unemployed people who have applied for a job in the previous four weeks and are currently available for work.

There is no way this state is doing as well, economically than 1996. People had hope then.
Median income in 2005 dollars

Arizona 1996-1997: 39,451
Arizona 2004-2005: 45,279

United States 1996-1997: 44,425
United States 2004-2005: 46,071

From the U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h08a.html)

I think it's possible that your experience doesn't conform to reality.

pipelineaudio

3rd November 2006, 01:27 PM

In fact, the mandate is to provide adequate secondary English-language education, your conflation of "student" and "criminal" notwithstanding.

Are you somehow pretending the situation and deficit that won us our million dollar fine is NOT in fact due to having to pay for illegals with no tax base?

The unemployment rate measures unemployed people who have applied for a job in the previous four weeks and are currently available for work.

Thats easy enough then, they gave up years ago and are working under the table for scraps...forget the last four weeks

Median income in 2005 dollars

Arizona 1996-1997: 39,451
Arizona 2004-2005: 45,279

So a few fatcats at the top, hiring illegals are making so much money that it skews the curve? I can believe it, there are a LOT of houses in paradise valley valued in the millions

I think it's possible that your experience doesn't conform to reality.

I think its far more likely that your numbers, while real, do not tell much at all about the current situation. You should come down here and take a look for yourself.

mumblethrax

3rd November 2006, 04:39 PM

Are you somehow pretending the situation and deficit that won us our million dollar fine is NOT in fact due to having to pay for illegals with no tax base?
No, I'm pointing out your failure to adequately discriminate between two overlapping demographics.

I don't know why your school system has a deficit. If this is truly a problem of some people getting rich off of immigration, I suggest you vote for candidates willing to hold them to account for the costs of educating new immigrants.

Thats easy enough then, they gave up years ago and are working under the table for scraps...forget the last four weeks
That's a possibility, although it strikes me as unlikely given the large increase in median income. If you intend to provide evidence for your assertion, I suggest you examine the poverty rate among non-immigrants over the time period in question.

So a few fatcats at the top, hiring illegals are making so much money that it skews the curve? I can believe it, there are a LOT of houses in paradise valley valued in the millions
Forgive me for asking, but do you understand what the median income measures? A fat cat in a McMansion doesn't skew the curve anymore than a fit cat making $50,000/year.

I think its far more likely that your numbers, while real, do not tell much at all about the current situation. You should come down here and take a look for yourself.
I don't doubt that you truly believe things have got worse in the last ten years, but I'm not responding to that. I'm instead pointing out that you're wrong on several important facts.

I doubt I'll make it to Arizona anytime soon, sadly.

pipelineaudio

3rd November 2006, 04:49 PM

I don't doubt that you truly believe things have got worse in the last ten years, but I'm not responding to that. I'm instead pointing out that you're wrong on several important facts.

I doubt I'll make it to Arizona anytime soon, sadly.

Sorry, I have to doubt your doubts about my belief

10 years ago, lots of businesses were moving into Arizona. Hype abounded about our future. Airline companies and businesses painted their planes and buildings after the local sports teams.

High school kids had jobs

Lots of parks and improvements were being made, many more were being planned.

Today, schools have lost their sports programs

Schools have lost their music programs

We have almost ZERO working musicians now. They cant get jobs in their traditional industries of construction and food service.

We have TONS of houses for sale at extremely high values, yet Arizona families are moving into apartment complexes, unable to afford houses

Please show me a means or definition for median income that a large number of investors cant skew