BBC blog on their "hijackers still alive" story

[tacodaemon]

9/11 conspiracy theory
* Steve Herrmann
* 27 Oct 06, 11:33 AM

A five-year-old story from our archive has been the subject of some recent editorial discussion here. The story, written in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, was about confusion at the time surrounding the names and identities of some of the hijackers. This confusion was widely reported and was also acknowledged by the FBI.

The story has been cited ever since by some as evidence that the 9/11 attacks were part of a US government conspiracy.


read it all here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html)

[brodski]

read it all here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html)

The comments on that page are some of the most depressing things I have ever read.

[Dog Town]

Ct'ers ain't gonna dig this! I can hear the shrieks of " they were gotten to", " we have them so nervous", " Shills", yadda, yadda, yadda! Took BBC long enough to say something, about that old article, though. Better late than...


ETA: Did not read the comments, till I posted and saw Brods post!
What a bunch of freak'n nutters. I love how they always flood boards with," you just don't know the troof"!

[uk_dave]

Ct'ers ain't gonna dig this! I can hear the shrieks of " they were gotten to", " we have them so nervous", " Shills", yadda, yadda, yadda! Took BBC long enough to say something, about that old article, though. Better late than...

Well they did correct the report not long after when more facts were known, if I recall correctly.

The problem is, as we all have experienced no doubt, the CT'ers who post links to that archived story as solid proof that the hijackers can't have been who the US govt say they were.

Just as with many news stories immediately post 9/11, the claims and speculation contained in them could well have been retracted by a susequent article, but the CT'er will only post to the initial archived story and the uninformed will be inlcined to take it as gospel unless they bother to do some sifting.

So I think the beeb is right to make this small correction.

Another way of dealing with this sort of issue is to link to subsequent stories, but that in itself is a time consuming process. There's been many a time someone has posted an article which seems a bit iffy and I've wondered if there was a follow up story which might have clarified or even contradicted the first.


Agree with lord lucan...the comments are very depressing.
No2 even mentions that tarpley character.

[tacodaemon]

The comments on that page are some of the most depressing things I have ever read.

The sixth comment is really something:

The only comment I want to make is that there isn't much in a name. The fact remains that at least 6 of the 19 "hijackers" were and are alive, (according to BBC reports by the way).

He's still referencing the BBC reports even though that's what the blog entry is specifically saying is false. Geez, these people.

[brodski]

ETA: Did not read the comments, till I posted and saw Brods post!
What a bunch of freak'n nutters. I love how they always flood boards with," you just don't know the troof"!

I loved the one that argued that the Blog saying that the BBC reported again on the "Hijackers Alive" stories- correcting them, was wring, because the earlier reports contradict their corrections! :confused: :boggled:

[uk_dave]

There's nowt as strange as folk.

[beachnut]

would they be open for suit if they do not retract because it brings great pain and suffering to the families of 9/11?

has anyone hooked up surviving family member with lawyers to get any LC profits from the lies of LC or do they actually say it is fiction??

I think the truthers who are profiting should be putting the kids of the victims through college with their blood money!

It is ironic the people who use the story are calling the revision wrong and could have used their heads to figure it out the first time.

I have found truthers who are dead! The exact same name. But they still seem to be talking. (I suspect some are dead cause they have no viable brain functions)

[tacodaemon]

I like this one too:

First of all, the FBI has never formally charged any of these people - the hijackers, bin Laden, and many others - in the 9.11 attacks.

Yeah, let's haul all the hijackers into court and see them face their accusers!! :confused:

[Peephole]

Der Spiegel did the best debunking on this matter.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,265160-2,00.html

[Dog Town]

There's nowt as strange as folk.

:confused:

[Moving On]

Positive ID is a myth.

Yes they matched samples from a hotel for instance to remains in the wreckage but did not produce names. They proved the same person was in two places but not who they were. Yes - I understand the potential difficulty in getting the families to participate in providing samples. But that does not excuse the misrepresentation here in the BBC blog.

Can anybody show that positive ID has been documented?



2001

The remains of the five hijackers have been identified through a process of exclusion, as they did not match DNA samples contributed by family members of all 183 victims who died at the site.

The hijackers' remains will be turned over to the FBI and held as evidence, FBI spokesman Chris Murray said. After the investigation is concluded, the State Department will decide what is to be done with the remains.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A61202-2001Nov20&notFound=true






2002

Four sets of remains in Pennsylvania and five at the Pentagon were grouped together as the hijackers - but not identified by name - through a process of elimination.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/17/attack/main519033.shtml





2002

Remains of the 40 passengers and flight crew aboard the plane were identified last month through fingerprints, dental records and DNA, Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller said. Remains not matching DNA from the 40 victims were presumed to be those of the hijackers.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20020319/ai_n10760064





2003

The FBI had collected the DNA from tiny traces of skin on the steering wheels of vehicles hired by the hijackers and from hair samples recovered from their hotel rooms.

"No names were attached to those profiles. We matched them, and we have matched two of those profiles to remains that we have," Borakove said.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425822/171875





2003

Examiners could not say which of the hijackers' remains had been discovered because the FBI did not identify which of the DNA samples belonged to which hijacker, she said.

The samples came from items recovered from locations such as the scene of the crashes, a hotel or other places where the hijackers stayed, said a law enforcement official.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/02/27/hijackers.remains/index.html






Date Unknown

What will be done with the remains has not been decided, she said. The office does not know which of the terrorists' remains they have, because the profiles provided by the FBI did not have names attached, she said.


http://www.werismyki.com/artcls/remains_of_two_911_hijackers_identified.htm





2005?

"Some remains for each of the terrorists were recovered, as evidenced by five unique postmortem profiles that did not match any antemortem material provided by victims’ families. No identifiable remains for five of the victims known to have been killed in the attack were recovered."

http://ndms.chepinc.org/data/files/3/266.pdf



Read this PDF for the detailed processes involved.




2006

Along with their victims, 19 terrorists died after hijacking passenger jets on 9/11. Where possible, military and civilian authorities have separated the hijackers' body parts from the remains of victims and store them at undisclosed locations.

By contrast, identification work at the Pentagon and in Shanksville, Pa., where two other passenger jets crashed on 9/11, has been complete since early 2002.

In New York City, medical examiners used DNA profiles furnished by the FBI to match body parts with three of the 10 hijackers who crashed there. In the Pentagon and Pennsylvania cases, nine genetic profiles that matched no known victims were presumed to be hijacker remains, Smith says.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-09-11-sept11-remains_x.htm



In summary, since 2002 Shanksville and the Pentagon are done with no names produced as indicated in the earliest of reports. Beyond that they have identified genetic samples from one location to the wreckage in three cases but have not produced names.

I am open to evidence otherwise.

But yet in the BBC blog it says, "The FBI is confident that it has positively identified the nineteen hijackers responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Also, the 9/11 investigation was thoroughly reviewed by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States and the House and Senate Joint Inquiry. Neither of these reviews ever raised the issue of doubt about the identity of the nineteen hijackers."

Defining "positively identified" was not accomplished here. Do they have genetic samples from relatives to accomplish this? I believe the answer is no.

Russell

EDIT: For some reason the bold command would not work on this post and went a little crazy.

[Gravy]

Yes, taking into account all the evidence, including the extensively documented investigations into their backgrounds, connections, and movements, we do know who the hijackers were.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.

[gumboot]

Yes, taking into account all the evidence, including the extensively documented investigations into their backgrounds, connections, and movements, we do know who the hijackers were.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.


I think the fact that some of the particular passengers whose remains were not identified by DNA happened to be confirmed members of Al Qaeda was probably a bit of a give away... ;)

Coulda just been coincidence though I suppose. I mean, 4 or 5 Al Qaeda operatives happen to be innocent passengers together on an airliner that gets rammed into a building in a terrorist attack. Makes sense...:rolleyes:

-Gumboot

[WildCat]

Can anybody show that positive ID has been documented?
Russell, it should be quite simple for you to show that the ID's are not who the FBI claims they are.

Produce the "living hijackers".

Can you do that?

[TellyKNeasuss]

RP, can you explain why these guys, if they weren't the hijackers, wouldn't come forward to clear their name (if they aren't anti-American) or to attempt to cast blame on the Bush Administration (if they are anti-American)?

And if they are dead, why their families wouldn't provide DNA samples to prove that the remains aren't from the their relatives?

[stateofgrace]

Surely this is one of the silliest conspiracies ever. The hijackers are still alive, yeah right.

“Ok here's the plan we are going to fake the worst terrorist action ever .This involves four planes which we are going to remotely piloted into three buildings and the forth we will probably shoot down. There won't be any hijackers at all. What we are going to do is steal 19 guys identities and pretend it was them. Any questions?"

" Well won't the 19 guys know we stole their identity?"

" Exactly that is the beauty of the plan, nobody will believe them. Anybody else?"

" Well if these guys do come forward, its gives the game away, so why not just top them before hand?"

" Good question and the answer is simple. If we do that it may draw attention to ourselves and give the game away. Any more questions?"

" Yes are you crazy?"

" Absolutely. Right find me nineteen guys".

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant, no wonder they got caught.

[LashL]

Russell,

Many of the dead from the WTC towers have not been identified via DNA evidence either. That doesn't mean they weren't there and that they aren't dead. Unfortunately, sometimes there are no viable remains suitable for DNA testing and sometimes there are no samples to compare the remains to.

This is not unique to the hijackers of September 11, 2001, Russell. It should come as no surprise to you that in the real world, even entire bodies - never mind small pieces of human remains - go unidentified and remain unidentified for lengthy periods of time before finally being buried as "John Doe" or "Jane Doe".

In the real world, it is not always possible to make DNA matches, for all kinds of reasons. Yet, for the couple of centuries before DNA analysis was even a possibility, courts and coroners and investigators of all fashions have managed to rely upon other forms of evidence for purposes of identifying people, even when there wasn't much left to identify.

The real world isn't CSI. Identification does not rest solely upon DNA. Like I said above, identifications have been made for the last couple of centuries by means of investigation other than DNA. Did they make mistakes? Yes, certainly. Does that mean that nothing short of positive DNA matches are sufficient to establish identity? No, certainly not.

I really do get the impression that CTers watch too much television and actually expect that every single anomoly in every case can be wrapped up in 22 minutes. In the real world, it doesn't happen that way. In the real world, it is vastly more likely that there will be unexplained anomolies in any given homicide/sudden death investigation than that there will be none. Ask any cop or fire investigator or insurance investigator, etc.

Then, review your list of alleged "anomolies" posted previously and perhaps you'll begin to understand why they look so lame, reaching, insignificant, and clutching at straws to most people.

[W6102LA]

:confused:

Lost your code-breaking booklet again i see

;)

[Moving On]

Yes, taking into account all the evidence, including the extensively documented investigations into their backgrounds, connections, and movements, we do know who the hijackers were.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.

Provide positive ID of their remains. I have documented my case and the misrepresentation of the FBI.

[Moving On]

I do not believe the hijackers who were on the planes are alive. I am saying they are making false claims as to positive ID to the unassuming. The fact is we do not have positive ID of who was on board those planes.

Period.

[Moving On]

LashL,

You are missing the point.

The FBI should have said what you did almost word for word. It is the truth. But they didn't.

I am not a CSI fan.

To the FBI's CSI audience though, people are assuming something that is not true.

Russell

[gumboot]

I do not believe the hijackers who were on the planes are alive. I am saying they are making false claims as to positive ID to the unassuming. The fact is we do not have positive ID of who was on board those planes.

Period.


Because airports often let people onto a flight using someone else's ticket...:rolleyes:

I mean, sure, US airport security pre 9/11 was pathetic, but if you let randoms take someone else's ticket, that's just bad business. Can't see it happening.

Facts:

1) Al Qaeda members purchased the tickets to these flights
2) Same Al Qaeda members passed through airport security with said tickets
3) Said tickets were carried onto aircraft by persons
4) Persons who carried said tickets onto aircraft are only ones not identified by DNA or otherwise claimed by families

Ergo, unless a swap occured between steps 2 and 3, in which people other than the Al Qaeda terrorists managed to accquire these tickets OFF the Al Qaeda terrorists and board the aircraft, a chain of logic dictates these individuals were on the aircraft when it crashed.

Thereby, a process of elimination determines the unidentified remains must belong to them.

-Gumboot

[stateofgrace]

Russell can you offer up positive evidence these guys are not the hijackers?

Yes or no?

Can you offer up positive evidence they were not on the flights

Yes or no?

Evidence as in admissible in a court of law?


http://www.danzfamily.com/pictures/pictures02/hijackers.jpg

[WildCat]

I do not believe the hijackers who were on the planes are alive. I am saying they are making false claims as to positive ID to the unassuming. The fact is we do not have positive ID of who was on board those planes.

Period.
Okay, and the reason they would kill the 19 hijackers on the planes and then claim that the dna of some other, unidentified people is the dna of the people they killed on the planes is...?

Do you see how ridiculous this scenario is? What purpose does it serve?

And I have yet to see a single CT that offers a plausible scenario for the events of 9/11. The official story makes a whole lot of sense and has reams of evidence backing it up, any CT you pick is either full of glaring holes or contains mutually exclusive facets.

So has anyone on the LC crew traveled to Saudi Arabia yet to persuade the relatives to donate the dna that will exonerate their loved ones and blow the entire nefarious plot out of the water?

[Moving On]

Because airports often let people onto a flight using someone else's ticket...:rolleyes:

I mean, sure, US airport security pre 9/11 was pathetic, but if you let randoms take someone else's ticket, that's just bad business. Can't see it happening.

Facts:

1) Al Qaeda members purchased the tickets to these flights
2) Same Al Qaeda members passed through airport security with said tickets
3) Said tickets were carried onto aircraft by persons
4) Persons who carried said tickets onto aircraft are only ones not identified by DNA or otherwise claimed by families

Ergo, unless a swap occured between steps 2 and 3, in which people other than the Al Qaeda terrorists managed to accquire these tickets OFF the Al Qaeda terrorists and board the aircraft, a chain of logic dictates these individuals were on the aircraft when it crashed.

Thereby, a process of elimination determines the unidentified remains must belong to them.

-Gumboot

You may be right. The question is why isn't the FBI presenting it just the way you honestly did?

[Moving On]

Russell can you offer up positive evidence these guys are not the hijackers?

Yes or no?

Can you offer up positive evidence they were not on the flights

Yes or no?

Evidence as in admissible in a court of law?




No I can't.

Can the FBI positively identify their remains?

Can the FBI link them to their leader with enough evidence to post him as wanted for 9/11?

You guys have to quit the ridicule and get serious here.

[gumboot]

You may be right. The question is why isn't the FBI presenting it just the way you honestly did?


Who said they aren't?

-Gumboot

[stateofgrace]

No I can't.

Can the FBI positively identify their remains?

Can the FBI link them to their leader with enough evidence to post him as wanted for 9/11?

You guys have to quit the ridicule and get serious here.

Get serious?

I'm sorry Russell but you have just admitted you have absolutely no proof that these 19 individuals are not the hijackers and were not on the flights.

Then the best you can come up with is The FBI must be in on as well because on their website UBL is not wanted for 911 and they can't positively identify the hijackers DNA.

Can you prove UBL wasn't involved?

Can you prove the FBI has lied about the DNA?

Sorry Russell, I fear it's you than need to get serious because you are the one accusing the US government of mass murder, not me.

[Dog Town]

So has anyone on the LC crew traveled to Saudi Arabia yet to persuade the relatives to donate the dna that will exonerate their loved ones and blow the entire nefarious plot out of the water?

And blow the whole fairytale to Hell? I doubt it! Great challenge ,though.

[Spins]

The comments on that page are some of the most depressing things I have ever read.
I agree some people really are detached from reality! I think those comments also show that some (possibly most) CT'ers will always believe 9/11 was an inside job, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

[Mince]

If these hijackers are still alive (well, if they're still alive, they're not hijackers), then I want to start seeing some interviews with them. Surely they want to clear their good names.

[Mince]

The sixth comment is really something:


I'll see your sixth comment and raise you a thirteenth comment:


Why is it that I am able to find more indepth analysis of what actually happened on that terrible 9/11 day through web sites that are run on not even a tenth of the budget that BBC has, for example: prison planet.com?




*emphasis added for, well, emphasis.

[sleahead]

It has not been mentioned yet, but the Saudi government has confirmed that 15 of the 19 hijackers were it's citizens. I don't think they would have done this unless they were convinced by the evidence for identification. But of course, the CTs will claim the Saudi government is in on the conspiracy.

[kookbreaker]

It has not been mentioned yet, but the Saudi government has confirmed that 15 of the 19 hijackers were it's citizens. I don't think they would have done this unless they were convinced by the evidence for identification. But of course, the CTs will claim the Saudi government is in on the conspiracy.

Its a point I've made a few times. S.A. reeeeallly did not want to admit that. It was probably hard enough to admit that Muslims did it, but then to have to own up that 15 of their children, and thus their society, were responsible was a blow. They really didn't want to do that. But the alterantive would have been a denial that would have cost them dearly on the international scene in terms of respect and made them look like fools.

On the bright side, the admission has led to some big cultural changes over there.

[NoZed Avenger]

Surely this is one of the silliest conspiracies ever. The hijackers are still alive, yeah right.

“Ok here's the plan we are going to fake the worst terrorist action ever .This involves four planes which we are going to remotely piloted into three buildings and the forth we will probably shoot down. There won't be any hijackers at all. What we are going to do is steal 19 guys identities and pretend it was them. Any questions?"

" Well won't the 19 guys know we stole their identity?"

" Exactly that is the beauty of the plan, nobody will believe them. Anybody else?"

" Well if these guys do come forward, its gives the game away, so why not just top them before hand?"

" Good question and the answer is simple. If we do that it may draw attention to ourselves and give the game away. Any more questions?"

" Yes are you crazy?"

" Absolutely. Right find me nineteen guys".

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant, no wonder they got caught.


Yes. They're willing to ruthlessly kill thousands of people in the most complicated plot ever, but can't bring themselves to kill 6 guys that they'd like to frame for it.

The sun got in their eyes. Or something.

[Peephole]

No I can't.

Can the FBI positively identify their remains?

Is the US supposed to send the Delta Force to hijackers families, tie them down and get a DNA sample?

They positively identified three hijackers of who they had DNA samples and identified nine unknown passengers by process of elimination, what more were they supposed to do?

[firecoins]

I still subscribe to the no plane theory which says that everyone in the Manhattan, Brooklyn and Jersey City/Newark areas who saw 1 plane or both had a mass hallucenation. The dozens of videotapes by professional and amateurs were all faked. The phone calls were faked. The planes all landed safely somewhere and everyone on board including the hijackers are alive and in on it.:boggled:

[uk_dave]

I'll have what he's drinking.

:D

[PerryLogan]

Dude...it's the matrix. Nothing is true; everything is permitted.

[LashL]

LashL,

You are missing the point.

The FBI should have said what you did almost word for word. It is the truth. But they didn't.

I am not a CSI fan.

To the FBI's CSI audience though, people are assuming something that is not true.

Russell

Russell,

I think it is you who is missing the point. The point is that by all investigative standards, DNA is not required to make a positive identification. The FBI is satisfied that it has made positive identifications of the hijackers. They did not say that they identified all of the hijackers by way of DNA evidence. See the difference?

[Oliver]

Der Spiegel did the best debunking on this matter.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,265160-2,00.html

Holy crap! Thank you for the linke. :)