Tai Chi Chuan: Useful or bogus?

[Nihilanth]

Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but since it deals with skepticism, I guess it fits here. Anyway...

I've been hearing a lot about Tai Chi lately (seemingly years behind of everyone else on this planet, apparently). I always thought it was just one more way to part someone from their money, but realizing that a fully closed mind is just as worthless as a fully open one, I thought I'd give it a try. Alas, upon realizing one of the forms was entitled "Pushing the Monkey", I fell into a paroxysm of juvenile laughter and could not proceed.

So, I was wondering: does anyone here have any kind of source they can point me to that would answer my question? Lacking that (or in case this devolves into a semantic free-for-all), does anyone know where I can go to learn some of this stuff so I can try it out for myself, see if it works? I mean, I like to check out the woo stuff for myself instead of trusting other people's opinions, and it's worked so far with magic with a K (it's crap), ghost hunting (more crap) and astral travelling (this one's true but, alas, I left my body lying in kind of an undignified position and have been too embarrased to return. I'm currently being channeled by a school janitor, which is not much of an improvement) (I'm joking, it's crap). Of course, I'd like this introductory stuff to be free, since there's no way I'm paying any amount of money for something that probably just makes you look silly.

Heh. Pushing the Monkey. ...DAMN! I thought I'd gone past that already!

[MG1962]

Well I cant point you to specific references, but both my parents have been doing it for about 10 years. Both are in their mid 70's and feel the exercises are excellent for their arthritis.

I guess the best way to describe Tai Chi is very low impact areobics.

[Jekyll]

Useful for what?

If we're just talking about the slow movements then, yes, it's just slow moving impact free exercise with a fair bit of built in stretching.

Obviously, it's better for you than sitting on your arse all day, and it can be kept up into old age, but there are better ways to get in shape and it's definitely not a fitness program in itself.

[T'ai Chi]

Alas, upon realizing one of the forms was entitled "Pushing the Monkey", I fell into a paroxysm of juvenile laughter and could not proceed.


Just lost in translation type of stuff. A lot of names make perfect sense in Chinese or sound cool poetry-wise, but when translated into English do sound funny. I think the one you're referring to, typically called Repulsing the Monkey,.. is supposed to imagine that you're a monkey pushing or swinging, not that you're pushing a monkey away.


So, I was wondering: does anyone here have any kind of source they can point me to that would answer my question? Lacking that (or in case this devolves into a semantic free-for-all),


This is a pretty good resource:

http://www.krapu4.com/taichi/research/tairesum.htm


magic with a K (it's crap), ghost hunting (more crap) and astral travelling (this one's true but,


If you're equating taijiquan with magik, ghost hunting, and astral travelling I'm afraid you're biased/jaded from the start. Think of it as an exercise for balance, grace, some martial application, a wayto relax, and just a way to socialize and have fun that you can do your entire lifespan (that last one is really important!).

And don't worry how you look when doing it for Pete's sake; its totally irrelevant. First, it doesn't look that bad, second, you're grace will improve, and third, a lot of activities look sillier (like when I
m in yoga class with my mouth open, tongue sticking straight out, and breathing really fast for 20 times). :)

[elaine]

........If you're equating taijiquan with magik, ghost hunting, and astral travelling I'm afraid you're biased/jaded from the start. Think of it as an exercise for balance, grace, some martial application, a wayto relax, and just a way to socialize and have fun that you can do your entire lifespan (that last one is really important!).

And don't worry how you look when doing it for Pete's sake; its totally irrelevant. First, it doesn't look that bad, second, you're grace will improve, and third, a lot of activities look sillier (like when I
m in yoga class with my mouth open, tongue sticking straight out, and breathing really fast for 20 times). :)

What Tai Chi said. I did tai chi years ago, and I remember enjoying it as a way to make myself to slow down and be more in the moment, and less klutzy.

Now skydiving does the same thing for me.

I get more out of yoga, but ignore the more wooish claims that come up.

[Jekyll]

Just lost in translation type of stuff. A lot of names make perfect sense in Chinese or sound cool poetry-wise, but when translated into English do sound funny. I think the one you're referring to, typically called Repulsing the Monkey,.. is supposed to imagine that you're a monkey pushing or swinging, not that you're pushing a monkey away.


Not conventionally.
It's more that someone (the monkey) has charged in to grab you, so you do something like this.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

Hence "repulse the monkey" not "repulse like a monkey" which typically involves more poo flinging.

[ponderingturtle]

What Tai Chi said. I did tai chi years ago, and I remember enjoying it as a way to make myself to slow down and be more in the moment, and less klutzy.

Now skydiving does the same thing for me.

I get more out of yoga, but ignore the more wooish claims that come up.

It is ammazing, Tai Chi said something that has actual content and not just that someone was interesting or that critisism did not meet with his standards to be worth refuting.

[elaine]

I knew there was something wacky here.


Please, don't hurt me TC :duck:

[Miss Whiplash]

It's a great low impact exercise. It does help improve flexibility and balance.

[jon]

If you're equating taijiquan with magik, ghost hunting, and astral travelling I'm afraid you're biased/jaded from the start. Think of it as an exercise for balance, grace, some martial application, a wayto relax, and just a way to socialize and have fun that you can do your entire lifespan (that last one is really important!).

Not to disappoint ponderingturtle... Some aspects of the 'traditional' practice of t'ai chi do seem to be magical thinking: for example, the belief that chi is real and the exercises somehow move it.

Of course, the more sensible instructors and students often ignore this, and, as others have said, t'ai chi can be a good low impact exercise, way to relax, etc. There are alternatives, though - if you enjoy t'ai chi, great; if it seems silly, boring etc. than you could always try something else...

[Yahzi]

there are better ways to get in shape
Only if you do them.

If the only program you're going to actually stick with is Tai Chi, then that makes Tai Chi the best program for you. :D

Let me just join the bizzaro train and add, "What T'ai Chi said."

[Nihilanth]

Hey, thanks a lot, guys. That actually answered all my questions and more; I guess I should have been more clear in the first place, though. I figured it probably helped build flexibility, and I wasn't arguing the balance claim. I was wondering about the claims about helping circulation and helping against arthritis, but then again I guess I'd actually have to have arthritis first to test that one out. And I never really bought into the chi stuff from the start, so THAT'S okay.

Well I cant point you to specific references, but both my parents have been doing it for about 10 years. Both are in their mid 70's and feel the exercises are excellent for their arthritis.


Well, that answers that, then.

Useful for what?

If we're just talking about the slow movements then, yes, it's just slow moving impact free exercise with a fair bit of built in stretching.

Obviously, it's better for you than sitting on your arse all day, and it can be kept up into old age, but there are better ways to get in shape and it's definitely not a fitness program in itself.

Yeah, I figured as much. I just wasn't sure it was an all that great way to get into shape in the first place. I mean, I have a kind of unique problem in that I'm working nights and not really used to it yet, so a lot of times I'm either asleep or at work. I don't really have time to get into an exercise regimen, which sucks because I really should. Tai Chi sounded like something I could pick up and do before I went to work or something.



This is a pretty good resource:

http://www.krapu4.com/taichi/research/tairesum.htm

Thanks, I'll check that out.
HA, who would have thought it? The guy with Tai Chi as his handle would know about Tai Chi.

If you're equating taijiquan with magik, ghost hunting, and astral travelling I'm afraid you're biased/jaded from the start.

Yeah, I kind of am. But I wasn't really linking Tai chi with any of those things; it was more of the kind of thing where I tried those things out for myself, found they were bogus, and now I wanted to try Tai Chi out. Mostly because I figured I'd get better results this time around.

Think of it as an exercise for balance, grace, some martial application, a wayto relax, and just a way to socialize and have fun that you can do your entire lifespan (that last one is really important!).

That's pretty much all I was going for, so that's good to hear.

And don't worry how you look when doing it for Pete's sake; its totally irrelevant. First, it doesn't look that bad, second, you're grace will improve, and third, a lot of activities look sillier (like when I
m in yoga class with my mouth open, tongue sticking straight out, and breathing really fast for 20 times). :)

Oh, I'm not worried about that at all. I assume most people are like me in that when they see someone doing Tai Chi, they don't say anything because of the creeping suspicion that they're ninjas and could easily destroy me.


Now skydiving does the same thing for me.

I get more out of yoga, but ignore the more wooish claims that come up.

Yeah...I'd rather do something that won't wind up with me smeared over ten feet of countryside, so I'll stick to the Tai Chi. But Yoga works better for you, you say?

Not to disappoint ponderingturtle... Some aspects of the 'traditional' practice of t'ai chi do seem to be magical thinking: for example, the belief that chi is real and the exercises somehow move it.

Of course, the more sensible instructors and students often ignore this, and, as others have said, t'ai chi can be a good low impact exercise, way to relax, etc. There are alternatives, though - if you enjoy t'ai chi, great; if it seems silly, boring etc. than you could always try something else...

That's pretty much what I read in Wikipedia, which got me interested in the whole thing all over again. Flexibility and balance = cool. Chi flow and crazy magical powers = not so much.


If the only program you're going to actually stick with is Tai Chi, then that makes Tai Chi the best program for you. :D


Yeah...see, I work moving boxes all day, which is kind of a workout by itself, and like I said, I don't really have time for anything else. I thought Tai Chi would be a good complement to lugging around hundred pound cases of furniture all day.

[RemieV]

Tai Chi video tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6WyGxWBdc8

[elaine]

I prefer yoga, but I can see myself giving tai chi another shot, just to mix it up a bit. I get bored, otherwise.

[ponderingturtle]

Not to disappoint ponderingturtle...

My comment was dirrected at Tai Chi the person not Tai Chi the practice, just look at some of the threads he starts, but never says anything definite. So he never presents a proper arguement so you can not effectively argue with him.

[firecoins]

I do tai chi. It was originally a martial art, born out of kung fu. As it Westernized, the martial art aspect is seldom known by instructor much less taught.

Tai Chi is a moving mediation. Instructors talk about a mysterious "chi" force which I ignore. I take chi to mean correct posture. Because it is a movinh meditation, its been found to reduce stress, increase focus, improve joint health and in some cases improve depression. It does NOT cure cancer. Most practioners practise the meditation well into their later years. They seem to keep limber compared to those who do not.

[thaiboxerken]

It's garbage. You're better off learning a fighting art if you want to learn how to fight or going to the gym if you want exercise OR going to an MMA gym if you want both. Tai Chi is full of nonsense people that will tell you that Chi is "real" and that you'll learn superpowers by learning Tai Chi. In reality, it's just a slow motion exercise for Chinese senior citizens.

[clarsct]

Well, it's useless to FIGHT with.

As an exercise it's no sillier than Jazzercise or that silliness promoted by Richard Simmons....

[Nihilanth]

It's garbage. You're better off learning a fighting art if you want to learn how to fight or going to the gym if you want exercise OR going to an MMA gym if you want both. Tai Chi is full of nonsense people that will tell you that Chi is "real" and that you'll learn superpowers by learning Tai Chi. In reality, it's just a slow motion exercise for Chinese senior citizens.

Well, see, I'm not really looking on how to fight OR looking for a gym. I'm looking for some kind of low-impact workout to complement the exercise I regularly experience at work. I thought Tai Chi would fit the bill as far as stretching, increasing limberness and balance goes. I'm really not at all sure where you got the idea that anyone here was taking the idea of "chi" seriously, as I'm pretty sure all of us made it clear that we don't really believe in such an idea. I mean, I understand that you might be a pretty busy person, but sometimes it's a good idea to actually read the message instead of just the thread name.

[T'ai Chi]

Well, it's useless to FIGHT with.

As an exercise it's no sillier than Jazzercise or that silliness promoted by Richard Simmons....

Experiences differ obviously. I've found it quite useful in self defense in real life.

[T'ai Chi]

It's garbage.


If garbage = a martial art/exercise that's been practiced for hundreds of years and continues to be practiced to this day; the most widely practiced martial art in the world, then yes, it is garbage.

People find it useful. You obviously don't like to see people getting use out of things.


Tai Chi is full of nonsense people that will tell you that Chi is "real" and that you'll learn superpowers by learning Tai Chi.


It is probably more nonsense to believe there is such a thing as an 'Ultimate' fighter, and that getting shiny belts is more useful for life.


In reality, it's just a slow motion exercise for Chinese senior citizens.

Where has anyone denied that taijiquan is mainly practiced slow?

I'd love to see any old people get use out of MMA-type training. It simply doesn't happen. That type of training is not useful (or even possible) throughout all stages of life. If youngsters engaging in that training injure themselves, senior citizens would injure themselves even moreso. And what is the logic of training in self defense if the art you're training in destroys you more efficiently than an opponent can?

[Ladewig]

I took a couple of classes at a community center and the teachers never mentioned energy flow or mystical powers or abilities. I found it to be a good relaxation technique.

[firecoins]

1. your not going to find any teachers who teach the "fighting" aspects of tai chi in the US. If you find a teacher who teaches Push Hands, you are lucky. MMA is better for fighting most certainly.

2. Most tai chi teachers will talk about chi. I ignore my teacher when he does. I have no time for the nonsense.

3. I enjoy performing tai chi as a moving meditation. It helps slow down and concentrate. Yoga also does this.

4. tai chi must be learned young, this way you can do it before your old and decreped. This way you can be old and less decreped.

[luchog]

1. your not going to find any teachers who teach the "fighting" aspects of tai chi in the US. If you find a teacher who teaches Push Hands, you are lucky. MMA is better for fighting most certainly.


That is demonstrably not true, since there is at least one school of Tai Chi Chuan here in the Seattle area that teaches "fast forms", aka "fighting" Tai Chi, including weapons forms.

[drkitten]

That is demonstrably not true, since there is at least one school of Tai Chi Chuan here in the Seattle area that teaches "fast forms", aka "fighting" Tai Chi, including weapons forms.

Such schools are, however, very rare. I believe Mike Sigman does (or did) teach something like that out of Denver, I've seen someone else in Ipswich, and I think there's a guy in Boston who teaches fighting Tai Chi.

Properly taught, it can be a very effective fighting style. However, I know of four competent instructors world-wide, which sort of limits its usefulness.....

[ponderingturtle]

If garbage = a martial art/exercise that's been practiced for hundreds of years and continues to be practiced to this day; the most widely practiced martial art in the world, then yes, it is garbage.


History is no way to measure value, or you would be going to your doctor to be bleed with leaches to get your humours in to ballance.

[firecoins]

History is no way to measure value, or you would be going to your doctor to be bleed with leaches to get your humours in to ballance.
Actually some doctors use leaches to remove dead skin from burn victims. But than again they aren't using it to get humours in balance.

[firecoins]

Such schools are, however, very rare. I believe Mike Sigman does (or did) teach something like that out of Denver, I've seen someone else in Ipswich, and I think there's a guy in Boston who teaches fighting Tai Chi.

Properly taught, it can be a very effective fighting style. However, I know of four competent instructors world-wide, which sort of limits its usefulness.....

Just doing weapons forms doesn't really do much. There are some schools that actually move beyond forms, like push hand and free form fighting. Some are here in NYC. They are rare though.

[ponderingturtle]

Actually some doctors use leaches to remove dead skin from burn victims. But than again they aren't using it to get humours in balance.

I think that is maggots, leaches are used to drain blood after microsurgery to promote blood flow. There is a reason I made sure to mention humours.

Then again plenty of bloodletting was done with simple knives, and with nifty skin cutting machines

[firecoins]

I think that is maggots, leaches are used to drain blood after microsurgery to promote blood flow. There is a reason I made sure to mention humours.

Then again plenty of bloodletting was done with simple knives, and with nifty skin cutting machines
That sounds right.

[supercorgi]

I think that is maggots, leaches are used to drain blood after microsurgery to promote blood flow. There is a reason I made sure to mention humours.
There's also some use of maggots for cleaning putrid tissue from wounds. Can you say "ewwwww?"

[briandunning]

Nice way to get some fresh air in the morning, I suppose - Makes you look like an idiot though. Although most people will applaud you for being a "spiritual person".

[firecoins]

Nice way to get some fresh air in the morning, I suppose - Makes you look like an idiot though. Although most people will applaud you for being a "spiritual person".
Well its better than being called a religious person.

[ponderingturtle]

There's also some use of maggots for cleaning putrid tissue from wounds. Can you say "ewwwww?"

That is the same thing as useing them in burn victims. The thing is that they do not eat healthy tissue, only dead tissue or infection.

[T'ai Chi]

There are some schools that actually move beyond forms, like push hand and free form fighting. Some are here in NYC. They are rare though.

Oh I agree. But you contradict yourself, as before you said


your not going to find any teachers who teach the "fighting" aspects of tai chi in the US.

[mac]

I learned to play tai chi after some botched back surgery, and certainly credit it for speeding my recovery. I never evolved in tai chi to the fighting techniques but my "master" did performances/demonstrations with weapons. As a former gymnast, I can say that the exercise is quite good to develop coordination and flexiblity - and concentration in movement. Talk to your "master" to take the movements to a level that is challenging to you - you'll have to learn the choreography as a beginner, but if you are more fit, you can adopt a more physically challenging position for the movements.

In using "master" I assume that the person who is teaching is a master of the artform. So please don't go all genie on me!

[thaiboxerken]

I'm pretty sure that a person just making up postures and positions and calling it "Tai Chi" would be just as effective as the "real" Tai Chi as far as health is concerned.

[Huntster]

It is ammazing, Tai Chi said something that has actual content and not just that someone was interesting or that critisism did not meet with his standards to be worth refuting.

What would be truly remarkable is if you could replicate the feat.

[Wudang]

I'm pretty sure that a person just making up postures and positions and calling it "Tai Chi" would be just as effective as the "real" Tai Chi as far as health is concerned.

Yeah, it's called Lee style and no, I'm not joking. If by "real" you mean the garbage that most people teach as tai chi.

Speaking as someone who's done fighting tai chi with Dan Docherty since the 80's I wouldn't bother with most tai classes.

In NY state google on Bob Loce. He should be able to point you at other good US instructors.

Some corrections - the "fast sets" aren't fighting - they're just fast hand forms usually associated with the Wu Jin Chuan lineage.
Tai chi's explanation of "repulse monkey" shows yet again that he knows smeg all about tai chi chuan. It's a combined leg sweep and push. And not just in my style.

[T'ai Chi]

Tai chi's explanation of "repulse monkey" shows yet again that he knows smeg all about tai chi chuan. It's a combined leg sweep and push. And not just in my style.

"Wudang", your comment is pretty irrelevant. I didn't even comment on its specific fighting applications, just how the name got its name.

[Soapy Sam]

I worked with a guy who made up his own "martial art" style exercise regimen, using a rope and a broom handle as props to aid stretches. He used to do about an hour a day on the helideck of a rig we worked on.
Various people asked him about the routine and he gave them varied answers, telling some he learned it in Korea and others he had it from an elderly sensei in New York. (He had visited neither place). Because I ran on the deck at the same time, I noticed he never did quite the same routine twice. He happily admitted he just made it up every day, doing whatever he felt like. He also made up a different story any time he was asked.

It seemed to keep him in very good shape. I occasionally wonder if he lied to me too and he actually did learn it from some wrinkled ancient master.

[Wudang]

"Wudang", your comment is pretty irrelevant. I didn't even comment on its specific fighting applications, just how the name got its name.

is supposed to imagine that you're a monkey pushing or swinging, not that you're pushing a monkey away.

You are precisely and exactly wrong.

[Jekyll]

"Wudang", your comment is pretty irrelevant. I didn't even comment on its specific fighting applications, just how the name got its name.
You didn't even say that, you just talked about stuff you think people should be imagining while they do the movement. Still, it was sufficient to make it quite clear that you don't know what you're talking about.
I think the one you're referring to, typically called Repulsing the Monkey,.. is supposed to imagine that you're a monkey pushing or swinging, not that you're pushing a monkey away.

[jmercer]

One of the problems with Taijiquan is that it was so widespread at the time of the so-called Chinese cultural revolution that it was one of the specific arts targeted for destruction. As a result, many competent practitioners simply "disappeared" - either via government action, or in self-preservation.

Some mid to lower-level students escaped to Taiwan and Okinawa; these people were not fully proficient and/or trained in the art - and there was still a strong prevalent attitude of secrecy regarding teaching martial arts from China to anyone not Chinese. As a result, the majority of what made it's way to the west was both incomplete by accident and design. This led to what is (IMHO, rightfully contemptuously) called "Tai Chi" practiced by the majority of the world today.

Eventually, the Chinese government reversed it's posture on Taijiquan (and other arts), which led to a revival of Taijiquan. In typical fashion, however, the Communist Chinese government required that "standardized" forms be created to allow people of any age, in any condition to enjoy the "health" benefits of taijiquan. The remaining knowledgeable practitioner's returned to mainstream life; formed a council; designed the current "modern" forms practiced widely today... and that's pretty much what you see done inside and outside of China these days. These competent practitioners - with the tacit approval of the government - were and are permitted to continue to teach the original art quietly.

Times change, and the so-called "Bamboo Curtain" became a lot more porous... which is why the West is slowly seeing another form of taijiquan emerge. It's a very slow process for a number of reasons - including the resistance of "mainstream" Tai Chi teachers. These teachers - when faced with the real thing - have to either admit they've been teaching a hodge-podge of nonsense and taking money for it all these years, or they have to reject it.

Guess which choice most of them make? :D

So a lot of these teachers of Tai Chi not only continue to teach their "version" of the art... but are actually quite vocal in public and to their students concerning the stuff coming out of China that's at odds with their teachings. And many of these teachers have the ears of long-established magazine publishers, who are more than happy to publish their viewpoint... because, of course, the focus for them is revenue. And that means you need to play to the majority of the readership... who would not be pleased to read that they've been wasting years of their lives learning something bogus.

Anyway, it's not unusual or unreasonable for people like TBK to feel that Taijiquan is garbage; the chances are vastly in favor of them having only been exposed to crap rather than anything effective. I wouldn''t expect them to believe anything else if all of their encounters were of the "float-away-butterfly-I'm-cultivating-my-chi-and-will-be-a-master-in-20-years" variety.

I do, however, respectfully request that MA's like Ken consider the possibllity that their experiences have been shaped by the circumstances outlined above... and that they should keep the option open that they may not have encountered someone who knows the practical art instead of the denatured version widely taught today.

[Wudang]

I don't think you need to invoke the old "nasty commies killing the real masters" story to explain it. The fact is it's hard work and the theory attracts dilettantes. The idea that lazy kids can inherit it from hard-working dads has been proven problematic and then you have the fact that a lot of western tai chi came via Cheng man Ching who was a man with delusions of adequacy.
I recall talking to one well-known european teacher who told of visiting China to advance her skills. "They said first I had to learn to move. I have been dancing for 20 years. I know how to move". Which is so spectacularly to miss the point that I couldn't be bothered pursuing it.

[DMax]

If you want to learn Tai Chi to look cool, eh... I suppose you can do that just about anywhere. If you want to learn it for health reasons or exercise, I suppose you could find a good teacher if you look a bit. If you want to learn it for fighting, good luck. You're going to have a tough time finding a teacher who can. Lucky for me I did. I have the bruises to prove it. :-)

Sure we talk about 'chi', but the concept is never really defined further than 'energy'. I see it as just paying some f&$%#!@ attention to what you're doing. i.e. "Focus your chi in your hands." = "Pay attention to what you're doing with your hands, idiot. You're going to break a finger if you don't to it right." Most of it is a language barrier issue.

If you want fighting Tai Chi, check out williamccchen.com for a list of teachers in your area. (Yes, it's a plug.) It's Cheng Man Ching's lineage. I don't know about the delusions of adequacy comment by Wudang. I've only studied a couple of arts, but the Tai Chi I'm doing now seems to be a pretty effective fighting system. I can't speak for other styles, but if this is the worst Tai Chi I can find, it's still pretty darn good.

Thanks.

[Wudang]

Sorry there are good CMC style teachers and the William Chen student I met in Jasnieres was pretty good. And of course there's Aarvo Tucker who is one of the best and with whom I've done a little Ba Gua and Hsing I.
I painted with too broad a brush.

[DMax]

Wudang, No worries. That's easy to do with Tai Chi, especially some of the Yang styles. They do get a bit of a woo-ish reputation. :-)

[firecoins]

Oh I agree. But you contradict yourself, as before you said
no, they are rare

[firecoins]

William Chen .

That is a good teacher in nyc

[jmercer]

That is a good teacher in nyc

True. :)

[jmercer]

I don't think you need to invoke the old "nasty commies killing the real masters" story to explain it. The fact is it's hard work and the theory attracts dilettantes. The idea that lazy kids can inherit it from hard-working dads has been proven problematic and then you have the fact that a lot of western tai chi came via Cheng man Ching who was a man with delusions of adequacy.
I recall talking to one well-known european teacher who told of visiting China to advance her skills. "They said first I had to learn to move. I have been dancing for 20 years. I know how to move". Which is so spectacularly to miss the point that I couldn't be bothered pursuing it.

Both factors contributed, true. And I love your last point; that's so appropriate and commonplace that reactions like that still amaze me.

[T'ai Chi]

Re: "Wudang"'s comment


...and then you have the fact that a lot of western tai chi came via Cheng man Ching who was a man with delusions of adequacy.


Actually, from accounts of people who actually knew him and were there (was Docherty?), Zheng Manqing was very modest and truthful with regards to his ability. What is your complaint exactly?

Many of Docherty's complaints re: Zheng Manqing come to "I believe.." and "I was told that..." type of stuff. Contrast that with Robert W. Smith's being there.

It is pretty clear that Docherty's complaints amount to a lot of sour grapes. I might be a complainer too if the whole world did the 37 posture form and very few did "Wudang" taijiquan and people the world over heard of Robert W. Smith but not Dan Docherty.

[Wudang]

Re: "Wudang"'s comment



Actually, from accounts of people who actually knew him and were there (was Docherty?), Zheng Manqing was very modest and truthful with regards to his ability. What is your complaint exactly?

Many of Docherty's complaints re: Zheng Manqing come to "I believe.." and "I was told that..." type of stuff. Contrast that with Robert W. Smith's being there.

It is pretty clear that Docherty's complaints amount to a lot of sour grapes. I might be a complainer too if the whole world did the 37 posture form and very few did "Wudang" taijiquan and people the world over heard of Robert W. Smith but not Dan Docherty.

Well you can check the Yang family records and with the Tung family and see the discrepancies between what CMC claimed and what the records show.
And if you think CMC was truthful with regards to his ability "my art did not desert me" and his fight record then you are woefully misinformed.
And if you think that atacking Dan Docherty somehow makes CMC look good you have, as everyone here knows, a lot to learn.

[gurugeorge]

Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but since it deals with skepticism, I guess it fits here. Anyway...

I've been hearing a lot about Tai Chi lately (seemingly years behind of everyone else on this planet, apparently). I always thought it was just one more way to part someone from their money, but realizing that a fully closed mind is just as worthless as a fully open one, I thought I'd give it a try. Alas, upon realizing one of the forms was entitled "Pushing the Monkey", I fell into a paroxysm of juvenile laughter and could not proceed.

So, I was wondering: does anyone here have any kind of source they can point me to that would answer my question? Lacking that (or in case this devolves into a semantic free-for-all), does anyone know where I can go to learn some of this stuff so I can try it out for myself, see if it works? I mean, I like to check out the woo stuff for myself instead of trusting other people's opinions, and it's worked so far with magic with a K (it's crap), ghost hunting (more crap) and astral travelling (this one's true but, alas, I left my body lying in kind of an undignified position and have been too embarrased to return. I'm currently being channeled by a school janitor, which is not much of an improvement) (I'm joking, it's crap). Of course, I'd like this introductory stuff to be free, since there's no way I'm paying any amount of money for something that probably just makes you look silly.

Heh. Pushing the Monkey. ...DAMN! I thought I'd gone past that already!

Most of the Tai Chi you see in the West is a gentle exercise developed through the 20th century, based on a hardcore martial art of several schools and lineages, all deriving ultimately (depending on who you believe) from either ancient Daoist cultivation, or the martial art of a specific farming community, the Chen clan, in China.

What's commonly seen is a more or less watered-down offspring of the Long Form (continuous, connected exercise) of the earliest "forms" of Taiji, which were sort of like compendia of all the techniques on the art, strung together in a way designed to develop the right kind of co-ordination through repetitive exercise.

As a martial art, it was widely recognised in the China of the late 19th century and early 20th, as one of the most effective martial arts of China, a sort of national treasure - this is through matches of competitive skill, not in theory - in those days the spectacle of a famous martial artist setting up a podium in a public place and challenging all comers was not uncommon.

The principles of Taijiquan (Taiji fist, Taiji being the famous Yin/Yang diagram) that make it (and a few other arts with similar principles) stand out from the majority of other martial arts are twofold: in terms of body development (how power is generated) and in terms of actual overall fighting strategy.

In terms of body development, power is generated by a way of using the body that's rather unusual and has to be trained for a while independently before any really serious martial application of it can be considered. It's a complex new type of co-ordination that requires training out of the normal habitual way of moving one has picked up, to a way of moving in which the body's frame is continuously controlled as a unit, any movement of any attacking or defending part of the body being at the same time a movement of the whole body, utilising clever leverage principles which take advantage of the solidity of the ground, and transmit it through efficiently aligned bones, using the minimum necessary muscular energy. This hyper-efficiency makes Taijiquan eminently suitable for combat in war, which requires tremendous endurance.

In terms of strategy, Taijiquan makes use, again, of a "soft" or "yielding" type of strategy. The idea is to get in contact with the opponent in a way such that the opponent can't feel your intent, but you can feel theirs, through their body, and through their body's connection to the ground. The Taiji fighter then breaks their opponents connection to the ground, rendering them without the ability to gain any leverage, and therefore helpless, and easily killable by a type of focussed, explosive use of force called "fajin". (The aim of most Chinese martial arts was originally to incapacitate or kill the opponent as quickly as possible. A Bagua practitioner of the old school recently said in an interview: "In Bagua, one wants to make the opponent spit blood".) A poetic description of this combination of "softness" and "hardness" is "like a needle in cotton". Some poetic ways of what it feels like to fight a Taiji fighter I've seen are: like trying to push a beach ball under the water directly from above; like fighting a boa constrictor.

There is another interesting aspect to Taiji power than clever leverage though, and that is the use of the body's connective tissue, the fascia, as an additive element to the force generated through leverage from the ground. Training in these aspects of the art involving the fascia produce feelings in the body which have led credence to the idea of "qi" being an external force. What's actually happening is that control of the fascia (which has recently been discovered to have some muscle fibers embedded, and other hitherto-unrealised interesting properties which might be responsible for some of the documented analgesic effects of acupuncture) is acquired through a control of aspects of the autonomic nervous system, requiring a certain type of mental state akin to hypnosis. (Hence the requirement for some meditative training in many of these types of "internal" arts.) In the course of this training, one sometimes feels one's body to be held or moved in a kind of "magnetic field". It's easy to see how people could think this a real thing, but the correct explanation is probably more along the lines I've given above: it's an odd brain trick that makes the body in some sense feel "alien".

Needless to say, you won't get this kind of stuff from your local mall, but it's the sort of training that people can get if they look for it: there are perhaps dozens of teachers of the "real thing" scattered throughout the world, and concentrated in a few places in China, and maybe a few thousand serious practitioners.

[gurugeorge]

Duplicate deleted

[thaiboxerken]

Yet, Taiji doesn't do very well in MMA competition.

No, Tai Chi is just an exercise to help keep old people happy.

[firecoins]

Yet, Taiji doesn't do very well in MMA competition.

No, Tai Chi is just an exercise to help keep old people happy.

Yes you know little of tai chi and probably don't know much of thai boxing either.

[T'ai Chi]

Most of the Tai Chi you see in the West is a gentle exercise developed through the 20th century, based on a hardcore martial art of several schools and lineages, all deriving ultimately (depending on who you believe) from either ancient Daoist cultivation, or the martial art of a specific farming community, the Chen clan, in China.


The Chen village being very close to locations where Shaolin was known to be practiced, as well as postures looking almost identical to Shaolin, hints that the Chen family created it from Shaolin.

[thaiboxerken]

Yes you know little of tai chi and probably don't know much of thai boxing either.

Does it hurt you feewings whenever MMA competition is mentioned? Wanna wittle tissue to wipe away your tears?

[firecoins]

Does it hurt you feewings whenever MMA competition is mentioned? Wanna wittle tissue to wipe away your tears?
First MMA uses more tha 1 art. Thai boxing is 1 art. Tai Chi is 1 art. Since both cover stand up fighting for the most part, I suggest taking up BJJ and Judo.

Second, no is claiming that tai chi has any correlation to MMA except for you.

Third I have no ides why idiots keeping bringing up MA versus MA. Its childish. You can go here www.martialartsplanet.com (http://www.martialartsplanet.com) or here www.bullshido.com (http://www.bullshido.com) and talk tai chi versus thai kickboxing to your heart's delight.

There are no good styles, just good fighters.

[gurugeorge]

Yet, Taiji doesn't do very well in MMA competition.

There are several possible reasons for this that have nothing to do with its quality as a martial art. In the first place, MMA hasn't really spread to China in any big way - that is to say, most Chinese who are interested in martial arts in China aren't that interested in MMA at the moment. Of course that could change.

Secondly, the few teachers of real Taiji who operate in the West are teaching mostly geeks, because it's through the geek channel, and the New Agey sort of channel, that Tajij has really become famous in the West, and because they earn a good living that way.

I don't know what the results would be like if Taiji competed in MMA settings, it would probably do well, but I don't imagine it would sweep the board necessarily. The level of training just isn't geared up to that at the moment, even in China, apparently. Platform competitions (of the kind that Taiji did well at in the 19th and 20th century, and which were much more no-holds-barred even than MMA) were outlawed by the Communists, so no doubt the standard has declined in some respects (i.e. people don't train for that kind of hardcore competition anymore, even if the art they are practicing is once an art that competed in that context in the past).

[gurugeorge]

The Chen village being very close to locations where Shaolin was known to be practiced, as well as postures looking almost identical to Shaolin, hints that the Chen family created it from Shaolin.

This is only one way of looking at it. I don't want to go into this aspect of the history, which has lots of heated opinions on all sides, but briefly my opinion is that the Chen story is the most coherent and likely, and that what we know of as Chen style Taiji was created from combining some sort of traditional family internal skills, probably derived from the Xingyi-like MA of the part of China the Chen clan emigrated from, with the comprehensive "quintessence" of Chinese MA of the 17th century created by General Qi Jiguang, with whom Chen Wangting served.

There are vague similarities to "Shaolin", and to other arts too, but I think it's more likely that the similarity to other Chinese MA comes through the fact that the Qi Jiguang book was itself a deliberate compendium of Chinese MA at that time, including "Shaolin" styles. Plus most Chinese MA look a bit like "Shaolin" anyway :)

[T'ai Chi]

There's many martial arts not present in MMA sports/entertainment events.

Most of which don't view sports/entertainment as more valuable than practicing for real life self defense situations.

[Mariah]

If you want to try Tai Chi or Quigong, look at Unitarian churches. Mine has it--this does not please me--and though it is good exercise, the instructors not only make it very clear they believe they are shoving around and re-chanelling the chi, they believe they have healing powers because of it. So, just as in yoga, if you can find an instructor who can focus on the benefits without laying on the woo, more power to yoo! After you've explored it, you could always try NIA or something similar for the benefits. Of course, NIA draws from yoga, Tai Chi, even marital arts. But the NIA class I took did not talk about chi and such.

[thaiboxerken]

First MMA uses more tha 1 art. Thai boxing is 1 art. Tai Chi is 1 art. Since both cover stand up fighting for the most part, I suggest taking up BJJ and Judo.

Thai boxing plays a large part in most MMA competitor's training, unlike Tai Chi.


Second, no is claiming that tai chi has any correlation to MMA except for you.

I'm not even claiming that. I'm just wondering why it seems to be absent in the training of MMA competitors.


Third I have no ides why idiots keeping bringing up MA versus MA.

Because some MA don't actually teach people how to fight.


There are no good styles, just good fighters.

Wrong, there are plenty of systems that have proven effectiveness and plenty that haven't. It takes more than just the person to be a good fighter, otherwise a person can do ballet and be a competitive fighter.

[firecoins]

Thai boxing plays a large part in most MMA competitor's training, unlike Tai Chi..

This whole thread has gone over your head completly. THe whole point is that very few if anyone teaches the martial art aspects of tai chi. Hence your not going to see anyone with extensive experience in tai chi competing in MMA competitions.

Yes Thai boxing is good ma. No one has said differenty. You are stuck in ma versus ma. You must be 13. I mentioned the martial art forums.

[firecoins]

Because some MA don't actually teach people how to fight.
.
Once again you missed the point of the thread. Tai Chi Chaun was originally and in some place still do teach fighting. For the most part tai chi has been hijacked by New Age bullshido which has no intention of teaching fighting. Tai Chi uses many of the same techniques other forms of kung fu use.

Many schools in the US have turned various martial arts from tai chi to thai kickboxing into just exercise.

aerobics + tae kwon do = tae bo
tai chi + yoga = new age center
dojo + injury insurance = no alive training

most tai chi schools focus on meditation
Aikido schools primarily focus on ki/spirituality
Ninjutsu focuses on...lineage
tae kwon do focuses on tkd competition
krav mag focuses on marketing

I have seen someplaces water down thai boxing, boxing and kickboxing into aerobic classes. Its depressing.

[clarsct]

Most of the Tai Chi you see in the West is a gentle exercise developed through the 20th century, based on a hardcore martial art of several schools and lineages, all deriving ultimately (depending on who you believe) from either ancient Daoist cultivation, or the martial art of a specific farming community, the Chen clan, in China.

What's commonly seen is a more or less watered-down offspring of the Long Form (continuous, connected exercise) of the earliest "forms" of Taiji, which were sort of like compendia of all the techniques on the art, strung together in a way designed to develop the right kind of co-ordination through repetitive exercise.

As a martial art, it was widely recognised in the China of the late 19th century and early 20th, as one of the most effective martial arts of China, a sort of national treasure - this is through matches of competitive skill, not in theory - in those days the spectacle of a famous martial artist setting up a podium in a public place and challenging all comers was not uncommon.

The principles of Taijiquan (Taiji fist, Taiji being the famous Yin/Yang diagram) that make it (and a few other arts with similar principles) stand out from the majority of other martial arts are twofold: in terms of body development (how power is generated) and in terms of actual overall fighting strategy.

In terms of body development, power is generated by a way of using the body that's rather unusual and has to be trained for a while independently before any really serious martial application of it can be considered. It's a complex new type of co-ordination that requires training out of the normal habitual way of moving one has picked up, to a way of moving in which the body's frame is continuously controlled as a unit, any movement of any attacking or defending part of the body being at the same time a movement of the whole body, utilising clever leverage principles which take advantage of the solidity of the ground, and transmit it through efficiently aligned bones, using the minimum necessary muscular energy. This hyper-efficiency makes Taijiquan eminently suitable for combat in war, which requires tremendous endurance.

In terms of strategy, Taijiquan makes use, again, of a "soft" or "yielding" type of strategy. The idea is to get in contact with the opponent in a way such that the opponent can't feel your intent, but you can feel theirs, through their body, and through their body's connection to the ground. The Taiji fighter then breaks their opponents connection to the ground, rendering them without the ability to gain any leverage, and therefore helpless, and easily killable by a type of focussed, explosive use of force called "fajin". (The aim of most Chinese martial arts was originally to incapacitate or kill the opponent as quickly as possible. A Bagua practitioner of the old school recently said in an interview: "In Bagua, one wants to make the opponent spit blood".) A poetic description of this combination of "softness" and "hardness" is "like a needle in cotton". Some poetic ways of what it feels like to fight a Taiji fighter I've seen are: like trying to push a beach ball under the water directly from above; like fighting a boa constrictor.

There is another interesting aspect to Taiji power than clever leverage though, and that is the use of the body's connective tissue, the fascia, as an additive element to the force generated through leverage from the ground. Training in these aspects of the art involving the fascia produce feelings in the body which have led credence to the idea of "qi" being an external force. What's actually happening is that control of the fascia (which has recently been discovered to have some muscle fibers embedded, and other hitherto-unrealised interesting properties which might be responsible for some of the documented analgesic effects of acupuncture) is acquired through a control of aspects of the autonomic nervous system, requiring a certain type of mental state akin to hypnosis. (Hence the requirement for some meditative training in many of these types of "internal" arts.) In the course of this training, one sometimes feels one's body to be held or moved in a kind of "magnetic field". It's easy to see how people could think this a real thing, but the correct explanation is probably more along the lines I've given above: it's an odd brain trick that makes the body in some sense feel "alien".

Needless to say, you won't get this kind of stuff from your local mall, but it's the sort of training that people can get if they look for it: there are perhaps dozens of teachers of the "real thing" scattered throughout the world, and concentrated in a few places in China, and maybe a few thousand serious practitioners.

You have, in a very lengthy post, said nothing new. The Germans used a technique known as fehling, which was a method of meeting weakness with strength and strength with weakness from about the 12th-13th century. Most human being who fought know that efficient muscle movement wins fights. Every fighting technique that's worth a damn teaches you to use your body as the source of power, to only use the muscles you need, and to use your body's leverage to increase your power.

In the end, there is no superior style or form. There is what is effective and what is ineffective.

[firecoins]

In the end, there is no superior style or form. There is what is effective and what is ineffective.

There are many wrestlin/grappling styles that use a hip throw. Most people refer to it as a judo hip throw.

[thaiboxerken]

This whole thread has gone over your head completly. THe whole point is that very few if anyone teaches the martial art aspects of tai chi. Hence your not going to see anyone with extensive experience in tai chi competing in MMA competitions.

Yes Thai boxing is good ma. No one has said differenty. You are stuck in ma versus ma. You must be 13. I mentioned the martial art forums.

Could you, at least, try to form a logical argument? So far, all you've done is make irrelevant statements that have no basis in reality. If Tai Chi had some actual fighting value, that value would show up in competitions where any/all systems of martial arts are welcome to compete.

[thaiboxerken]

For the most part tai chi has been hijacked by New Age bullshido which has no intention of teaching fighting. Tai Chi uses many of the same techniques other forms of kung fu use.

Other forms of kung fu haven't done very well in MMA competition either. Did you have something relevant to post?



I have seen someplaces water down thai boxing, boxing and kickboxing into aerobic classes. Its depressing.

Yet thai boxing, boxing and kickboxing still has a very huge presence in MMA competition. That speaks volumes for the techniques, talent and training of those systems. Yes, a good system can be watered down, but some systems have water as the primary ingredient.

[thaiboxerken]

In the end, there is no superior style or form. There is what is effective and what is ineffective.

There are systems that contain more effectiveness than other systems. Sorry, but if styles/systems/forms didn't matter, then training in a martial art is simply an exercise in delusion. A ballet dancer could/would win the UFC if that were the case.

[firecoins]

Could you, at least, try to form a logical argument? So far, all you've done is make irrelevant statements that have no basis in reality. If Tai Chi had some actual fighting value, that value would show up in competitions where any/all systems of martial arts are welcome to compete.
www.bullshido.com (http://www.bullshido.com)

MMA is fine for what it is but this isn't the forum for it.

The whole point that all martial arts have been watered down over time is bit complicated for you.

[thaiboxerken]

[URL="http://www.bullshido.com"]

The whole point that all martial arts have been watered down overtime is bit complicated for you.

The point that some martial arts started out with water as the main ingredient seems to be lost on you. You seem to think all martial arts were created equal and that's as absurd as the notion that all ideas are equal.

[clarsct]

There are systems that contain more effectiveness than other systems. Sorry, but if styles/systems/forms didn't matter, then training in a martial art is simply an exercise in delusion. A ballet dancer could/would win the UFC if that were the case.


A ballet dancer doesn't train to FIGHT. False anology.

A Golden Gloves boxer could beat someone with MMA training. Both systems teach the same basic lessons, to a degree. How to use your body to create force, and how to manipulate your opponent.
That is how you win fights.

A ballet dancer who learned to fight may surprise you, BTW. :p
(I'd love to see it, though!)

[thaiboxerken]

A ballet dancer doesn't train to FIGHT. False anology.

My analogy is accurate simply because how and what a person trains to do directly effects how they will perform. To say that all martial-art systems is the same simply ignores that fact. Also, some martial arts do not train to fight, Tai Chi happens to be one of them.

[Wudang]

My analogy is accurate simply because how and what a person trains to do directly effects how they will perform.

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training." I think Ken is saying that ballet dancers are incredibly fit so if what you practice wasn't an issue then being so fit they should fare well.

To say that all martial-art systems is the same simply ignores that fact.

The system or the training?

Also, some martial arts do not train to fight, Tai Chi happens to be one of them.
Same old crap. Look, if most of the thai boxing taught in the west was some kind of boxercise, would that be thai boxing's fault? Or the teacher's fault?
You've been told repeatedly of tai chi classes that teach people to fight. I've even mentioned one who competed vale tudo in the uk.

[gurugeorge]

You have, in a very lengthy post, said nothing new.

I'd be rather surprised if I had, I was just laying out what I thought could be reasonably said about Taiji.

As to whether other styles have similar things: the "soft"/"hard" strategy distinction is not unique to Taiji at all, and I never said it was.

However, the use of body and particular methods of generating power is rare (shared only by some of the other "internal" Chinese martial arts), and in combination with that particular strategy, creates a unique art. Something similar may be found in ancient European martial arts, but in terms of other Chinese martial arts (and Japanese) this type of movement is usually held to be somewhat "secret", "advanced", etc.

Of course every system has a way of training the body, but the degree of retraining is quite great in "internal" arts. Most martial arts utilise natural kinds of movement and adjust them to conform to one of more ideal types of movement, leverage, etc. With Taiji (and the other "internals") the approach is quite different, and extensive re-training in one's natural way of moving is required first, before any "fighting" is taught - sometimes for several years. A typical kind of anecdote for "internal" arts is that famous teacher X taught famous teacher Y nothing but standing in the correct way for several years before the student was even able to pick up a weapon. While this kind of extensive preparatory training is probably not totally unknown in Europe, it's probably as rare in Europe as it is and was in China.

Most military training was required to take people to as high a degree of combat readiness in as short a time as possible. The approach of these persnickety "internal" styles which required intensive body retraining for a few years before martial practice, is more the province of clan styles, village styles, where people could be trained in this slow way from a young age.

I must emphasise that I say this not to try and prove "Taiji ROXXXORZZZ" !!11!!11one!!", it's to simply describe what it is (AFAIK, and FWIW, from my researches).

[gurugeorge]

Also, some martial arts do not train to fight, Tai Chi happens to be one of them.

As people have pointed out, it's a question of degree: watered down New Age "Tai Chi" obviously doesn't train to fight.

People in Chen village (home of Chen style Taijiquan) in China (for example) do train to fight, but not to the level of MMA (it would be more a sort of Judo level fighting, kind of like sport fighting, but within traditional rules).

This is because (as I said above) "open platform" competitions (the Chinese equivalent of MMA) were banned in China by the Communists.

Most authentic "internal" Chinese martial artists will not even have heard of MMA, since they are mostly farming people in rural areas. (I believe the first MMA school opened in Beijing only a few years ago.) It's still early days even for a comparison of traditional "hard" Chinese styles in an MMA arena, far less the "internal" styles.

However, I should say that the few rare teachers of authentic Chinese MA styles who teach in the West are quite used to being unofficially "challenged" by sundry MA people in their classes (provided the legality of the situation is ok with their hosts). Any hardcore MMA person who feels Chen style Taiji (for example) is martial nonsense and wants to prove it could go to one of Chen Xiaowang's(, or Wang Haijun's, or Zhu Tian Cia's, or Wang Xian's) classes, for example, and formally challenge him to a polite "exchange of skills" (as several people have), or even try to surprise him (as several people have).

[Wudang]

This is because (as I said above) "open platform" competitions (the Chinese equivalent of MMA) were banned in China by the Communists.

Shame. We used to do "lei tai" in my training years back but then we switched to Kuo Shou Institute rules (Chinese govt approved as I recall) which basically suck - too kickboxy and points-oriented. I prefered the basic "You're off the platform, you lose".

[cgordon]

Heya Wudang ... is this thread a hit of deja vu (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52005) or what?

Some folks can't understand why anyone would want to study a martial art that doesn't directly apply to (fill in the blank of your favorite reason for studying martial arts here).

Others just like to argue and still others are just the martial arts equivalent of fan-boys.

Bottom line: If you enjoy it, it's worthwhile.

[gurugeorge]

Heya Wudang ... is this thread a hit of deja vu (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52005) or what?

Some folks can't understand why anyone would want to study a martial art that doesn't directly apply to (fill in the blank of your favorite reason for studying martial arts here).

Others just like to argue and still others are just the martial arts equivalent of fan-boys.

Bottom line: If you enjoy it, it's worthwhile.

With the sensible caveat that the don't delude themselves that they're practicing an effective martial art if they're not, exactly.

I enjoy MMA competitions (I have a few UFC and K1 DVDs and the like) and I think the players are awesome, but MMA enthusiasts who claim that MMA is equivalent to a "real world test" are deluding themselves. MMA rules are usually quite complex and restrictive and in selecting some set of restrictions, will automatically favour one particular style of fighting over another.

(For example, some of the variations in MMA rules I've seen are designed to favour avoiding the kind of deadlock and "boring" ground fighting that occurs if the rules are skewed more towards ground fighting; some are skewed to encourage the participants to do more stand-up stuff, or to make the fights shorter, etc., etc. The only really "real world" test of fighting that isn't outright street fighting is the kind of illegal matches in which there are no rules except don't poke peoples' eyes out and don't destroy their family jewels - which is what the Chinese "lei tai" competitions had.)

However, MMA-ists are right to be sceptical until something is shown; and one can hardly blame them for mocking traditional styles as the showing of traditional styles has been mostly (not wholly, but mostly) abysmal in MMA. But I (and other enthusiasts of traditional styles) would say that this is because true traditional styles have hardly been shown. What's been typical is that con-artists and deluded people have pretended to be teaching authentic traditional styles, and hapless geeks and MA nerds have been taken in.

This is dangerously close to the "no true Scotsman" logical move, I'm well aware. I can only plead that I, personally, have always maintained this standard and this line of argument, and have always believed that most of what passes for traditional style teaching in the West (and even to some extent in China!) has been poor, and that authentic traditional teaching is very, very rare, and extremely unlikely to be found in one's local mall in the the US or West generally (for example - though one might be very, very lucky, and live in one of the areas where the handful of traditional teachers from China who live in the West have settled).

[firecoins]

The point that some martial arts started out with water as the main ingredient seems to be lost on you. You seem to think all martial arts were created equal and that's as absurd as the notion that all ideas are equal.
you don't seem to know much about Tai CHi but seem to think your an expert. Your not in any standpoint to say where tai chi started because to you UFC is where everything started. I am not interested in other martial arts in this thread. I know you seem to think winning MMA matches is all martial arts about.

[firecoins]

My analogy is accurate simply because how and what a person trains to do directly effects how they will perform. To say that all martial-art systems is the same simply ignores that fact. Also, some martial arts do not train to fight, Tai Chi happens to be one of them.
No one is saying Tai Chi currently will win MMA matches. Your arguing with yourself. Many martial arts are not training to win MMA matches. The whole point of the thread is that few people actually teach the fighting methods of tai chi. Even than they are not training people to win MMA matches.

[Cuddles]

Bottom line: If you enjoy it, it's worthwhile.

Nail. Head. Hit.

Who cares which martial art is "best", or who would win in a street fight. If you like doing it, then do it, if you don't, don't.

[firecoins]

yeah but thats not good enough for thai. He has to prove that if your MA doesn't seem to be represented in UFC than it isn't worthwhile.

[cgordon]

With the sensible caveat that the don't delude themselves that they're practicing an effective martial art if they're not, exactly.

Then we have to pin down 'effective'. :rolleyes:

I've done 'combatives' (professionally as a cop and as a soldier), I've done no-holds barred (back before the term MMA was coined), and I've also done classical Japanese budo (sword, stick and jujutsu) for 30+ years. They're all fun (OK, the combatives thing was fun training, not applying), and there's something to be said for competition as a test of certain facets of martial skill.

However, what's effective for TBK, good performance in MMA matches, is not necessairly effective for the troops I work with here (doing Modern Army Combatives -- they do some competition, BTW, but their training for the field is different from their training for the ring) or for the old guy like me who loves to swing a sword and study the intricacies of how the classical Japanese sword, stick and body arts developed and were used.

In one sense, effective for me means swinging a 3-foot razorblade efficiently and effectively in a manner designed to deal with folks using similar implements. I'd put my blade up against most folks' figure-4 anytime, but we'd have to change the rules a bit!

When I was doing full-contact competitions, it meant getting my game on and delivering more damage than I took.

When I was in real-world situations, it meant doing whatever worked to get me out of the situation and do my best to apprehend or defeat with extreme prejudice the other fellow.

All three points of view are perfectly valid, from a martial arts perspective, depending on how you define martial arts for yourself.

Where I can agree - to some degree - with TBK and some of his ilk is that non-MMA'ers who step into a MMA ring without proper preparation are gonna be toast.

There's a lot to be learned from those folks, but what they're doing is only one facet of something much broader, and people like TBK can't seem to see anything outside their narrow lanes of experience.

[firecoins]

I have trained in combatives and BJJ. I can see why BJJ is effective in the ring but would be less effective in the street. However the combatives were helped by my knowing BJJ.

[gurugeorge]

Then we have to pin down 'effective'. :rolleyes:



Great post, I agree. I was thinking vaguely of the kind of general effectiveness most people who do MA would expect - something like, be able to handle themselves in the average non-lethal pub brawl, or be able to hurt or stop an assailant or mugger enough to get away or call the police, or enough to defend someone weaker than them being attacked on the street. Those kinds of moderately dangerous situations where the stuff MA teaches might be effective, are the sorts of situations the average person will expect to be able to handle from their training. And I think most arts that include "full contact" training will be able to give that; MMA guys are probably right that the kinds of "traditional" arts that only have forms and arranged drills, will not be as effective.

However, part of my point that I've been labouring over above is that a "traditional" art that's taught that way isn't actually traditional, it's probably fake. All the authentic traditional Chinese styles, to my knowledge (mainly from amateur study, with some small training in Karate, BJJ and Taiji), train with some degree of free fighting and full contact. Chen Taiji for example requires a long period of solo form training, true, but it's always understood that once the student has a grasp of the body mechanics, he will progress through push-hands and drills, through free-form push hands and other types of drills, to free sparring, and then (having meanwhile added weapons forms) weapons drills and weapons free sparring. The aim in Chen is eventually to be able to handle weapons - various kinds of swords, long staff, "Big Knife" (pike), etc.

(Chen Fake, the guy who made Chen style famous in Beijing during the 30s actually used his long staff in the process of defending a village, "7 samurai" style, from some bandits who had been bothering it. His method was to set up a defence on a bridge to the village that the bandits were going to cross. He ran the first few guys through with his staff, which understandably discouraged the rest of the bandits. So Taiji was effective in that kind of context, at least!)

Another point an MMA person would say is that to be effective in this general way, the style has to be put up against other styles. It's no good just being good at Taiji versus another Taiji player. And of course this is the great thing about MMA, the cross-training. But in China up until Communist times, schools and styles did indeed meet each other in open platform competitions, and people from different styles did share their knowledge (to a degree compatible with the secrecy surrounding those bread-and-butter arts - i.e. the knowledge was shared at quite a high level, by high level practitioners from various styles who respected each other). However, MMA still wins on this front, because the training is done in the open, Western way, almost a scientific way, where things are openly discussed and compared.

Interestingly, though this is good for the progress of knowledge as a whole, it's not necessarily good for the individual styles (look at how BJJ is now common knowledge, so BJJ players no longer have an "edge" in competition, like they did when they ripped through the early UFC).

[thaiboxerken]

The system or the training?

How it's trained is part of the system.


Same old crap. Look, if most of the thai boxing taught in the west was some kind of boxercise, would that be thai boxing's fault? Or the teacher's fault?
You've been told repeatedly of tai chi classes that teach people to fight. I've even mentioned one who competed vale tudo in the uk.

Those tai chi fighters are a rare case. Most tai chi is taught as a slow exercise. It's usefulness in fighting isn't very well established either. How is that uk tai chi fighter doing in the vale tudo circuit? How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.

[firecoins]

Those tai chi fighters are a rare case. Most tai chi is taught as a slow exercise. =
Thats what we have been saying!:mad:

There are very few who teach the actual martial art side much less aim it towards MMA style fighting. Those classes where fighting is taught it has not been oriented towards MMA. It could be but up to this point it has not. Many stand up arts lost to BJJ in the beginning of UFC but now that does not happan as they have orientated the training to take that into account. People like myself are trying to overcome the years of new age b.s to get the good stuff out so those who wish to apply the tai chi to the MMA mix can.

[Wudang]

How it's trained is part of the system.

Those tai chi fighters are a rare case. Most tai chi is taught as a slow exercise. It's usefulness in fighting isn't very well established either. How is that uk tai chi fighter doing in the vale tudo circuit? How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.
Look Ken, do not just read one sentence at a time. That's what makes people think you're thick and incapable of following an argument.
The tai chi chuan system has the slow hand form as a very small part of it. The crap that most westerners see as tai chi is nothing but the hand form. It's like training in boxing but just doing shadow boxing but not bag work or road work. The defining characteristic of a martial art is not the form, it's the basic training that should be expressed through the form.

[gurugeorge]

How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.

That's a good question, and I know what you mean, I've heard of Chinese MA stylists competing, but when you hear what they do, they do cross-training like you say.

However, if he's learning the real thing he's learning all these, because Taijiquan is an all-round MA, in its techniques as encoded in the Long Form it is already a distillation of a mixture of the best of Chinese martial arts of the 17th century, compiled by a great general of the time, and it includes striking with any and all parts of the body from all sorts of angles, and a hell of a lot of locks and throws (although no ground fighting to my knowledge - it has ways of dealing with people who try to take the fight to the ground - but doesn't include ground skills AFAIK).

[drkitten]

Look Ken, do not just read one sentence at a time. That's what makes people think you're thick and incapable of following an argument.
The tai chi chuan system has the slow hand form as a very small part of it. The crap that most westerners see as tai chi is nothing but the hand form. It's like training in boxing but just doing shadow boxing but not bag work or road work. The defining characteristic of a martial art is not the form, it's the basic training that should be expressed through the form.

And furthermore, the "tai chi chuan" system is really just a relatively small subsystem of the entire "tai chi" martial art that includes staff, sword, dagger, and a number of other weapons forms.

Complaining about "tai chi" on the basis of some of the teaching of (some of) the hand training is like listening to five bars of the tympani part of a symphony, and then complaining that the composer sucks.

[firecoins]

How it's trained is part of the system.
How is that uk tai chi fighter doing in the vale tudo circuit? How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.
MMA = Mixed Martial Arts. That means knowing more than 1 martial art. I think if someone trained in Tai Chi is competing in MMA, there is a good chance they know boxing, judo, muy thai, bjj or shooto.

[thaiboxerken]

I think if someone trained in Tai Chi is competing in MMA, there is a good chance they know boxing, judo, muy thai, bjj or shooto.

I agree, and there is also a very good chance that they don't actually use any of the Tai Chi.

[firecoins]

I agree, and there is also a very good chance that they don't actually use any of the Tai Chi.
Your quite unfamiliar with tai chi.

[T'ai Chi]

, but MMA enthusiasts who claim that MMA is equivalent to a "real world test" are deluding themselves.


You mean there aren't rounds, rest times, and people to put vasoline on you and give you water in real life fights?

[T'ai Chi]

, and people like TBK can't seem to see anything outside their narrow lanes of experience.

He also won't admit that wrestling and muay thai are TMAs, very traditional TMAs. I always have to remind him of that when he starts talking about TMAs being this or being that.

[Nihilanth]

Some folks can't understand why anyone would want to study a martial art that doesn't directly apply to (fill in the blank of your favorite reason for studying martial arts here).

Others just like to argue and still others are just the martial arts equivalent of fan-boys.

Bottom line: If you enjoy it, it's worthwhile.

Jeez, THANK YOU! Man, I was thinking I did the equivalent of kicking around a hornet's nest on here.

Okay, there seems to still be some confusion on this topic. I'm going to go ahead and reiterate. I am not studying Tai Chi to learn to fight. I do not want to learn to fight. I am useless in a fight and probably always will be unless I am holding a gun or a massive whirling chainsaw with lasers attached.So I'm not looking to learn to fight. I didn't even know Tai Chi HAD a fighting style, and can't say I really give a damn. I'm just trying to complement the workout I get at work.

Okay, so, moving along...I don't have a lot of money. Like, EVER. So going to someone and paying him to tutor me, while it would probably be a helluva good idea, is just not in my price range. So, if I'm not completely insulting anyone by even suggesting this, is there an accessible book I could get my hands on that anyone knows of, that'll let me get my feet wet, see if it works for me? I bought some damned thing at Barnes & Noble, but it's really laying the chi on thick and, anyway, the movement descriptions are hard to understand.

So, any help on that would be great. Unless someone here's going to say something like "Well, if you can't be bothered to find a real master, blah blah blah I hate you I hope your children die blah blah blah", then you can just safely ignore me. Your hatred has probably already been noted.

Thank you. I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument, already in progress...

[Wudang]

um, no. It really does have to be shown. If you're looking for something to relax with that complements harder training, try "Stretching" by Bob Anderson. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stretching-Bob-Anderson/dp/0936070226/sr=8-1/qid=1162910646/ref=pd_ka_1/202-8384599-2909463?ie=UTF8&s=books

[cgordon]

Nihilanth,

I've only ever dabbled in the Chinese stuff (Pa Kua and Hsing I, for a coupl eyears back in the late 70s, early 80s or so), but from a general standpoint, trying to learn martial arts from a book is pretty much a waste of time. Pictures are, well, just that, a snapshot of movement. They seldom provide enough info to tell you HOW to get from movement A to B correctly.

If you want to dabble in the movement of Tai Chi, you might try to find a video or DVD. Still not as good as a live teacher, but should give you a better sense of the flow from point A to point C, etc.

Better yet, check around your local community centers and such. Many places offer martial arts instruction pretty cheaply, sometimes free.

[thaiboxerken]

If you're doing it just for the workout, don't worry about doing it "right." It's probably just as effective to improvise slow motion movements. So you don't need to buy a book or video, just make it all up as you go along. It will be just as beneficial as the "real" tai chi.

[firecoins]

Okay, so, moving along...I don't have a lot of money. Like, EVER. So going to someone and paying him to tutor me, while it would probably be a helluva good idea, is just not in my price range. So, if I'm not completely insulting anyone by even suggesting this, is there an accessible book I could get my hands on that anyone knows of, that'll let me get my feet wet, see if it works for me? I bought some damned thing at Barnes & Noble, but it's really laying the chi on thick and, anyway, the movement descriptions are hard to understand.

Get a dvd...if you have a dvd player.

Find out if people do tai chi in a nearby park. You can watch them and copy them for free.

[firecoins]

If you're doing it just for the workout, don't worry about doing it "right." It's probably just as effective to improvise slow motion movements. So you don't need to buy a book or video, just make it all up as you go along. It will be just as beneficial as the "real" tai chi.
once again, showing your little knowledge on tai chi. Stick with muay thai. Only listen to people who actually do tai chi...okay Ba gua and xing-I are also good to listen to.

Your breathing is important. Your posture is important. Also, you'll want to get a dvd on qigong.

[thaiboxerken]

Only listen to people who actually do tai chi...

This is another mantra that comes from the mouths of believers.

Breathing is a simple exercise one can learn from a book or even this post. Breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth and let your lungs and diaphram expand and collapse fully.

Posture: don't stand in weird ways that hurt your back.

There, now just make up some weird movments, do it in slow motion, put on some silk robes and you're doing tai chi.

Firecoin, feel free to post scientific evidence that tai chi is any more healthful than other low impact exercises.

[firecoins]

Breathing is a simple exercise one can learn from a book or even this post. Breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth and let your lungs and diaphram expand and collapse fully.

Posture: don't stand in weird ways that hurt your back.

There, now just make up some weird movments, do it in slow motion, put on some silk robes and you're doing tai chi.
To do Muay Thai just throw some elbows and kicks at a punching bag and you pretty much have the whole martial art. Than your ready for MMA. You don't need to take classes. OH WAIT, thats an oversimplification.

Firecoin, feel free to post scientific evidence that tai chi is any more healthful than other low impact exercises.
ONCE AGAIN, your inserting claims NEVER made to begin with.

[thaiboxerken]

ONCE AGAIN, your inserting claims NEVER made to begin with.

Yet that is the exact position you are defending.

Pretending to do Tai Chi is probably just as beneficial to health as doing "real" Tai Chi. That's my position and that's the one you've been attacking, yet you don't "claim" that Tai Chi is more healthy than other low impact exercise?

[firecoins]

Yet that is the exact position you are defending.

Pretending to do Tai Chi is probably just as beneficial to health as doing "real" Tai Chi. That's my position and that's the one you've been attacking, yet you don't "claim" that Tai Chi is more healthy than other low impact exercise?
once again, no one is advocating that. You are inserting things.

Here are some scientific studies done reguarding tai chi.
Tai Chi and Arthritus
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/91/100965.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/91/100965.htm)

Tai Chi and weight loss
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/124/115530.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/124/115530.htm)

Tai Chi and Senior Citizens
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/107/108721.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/107/108721.htm)

tai chi and Shingles
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/74/89134.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/74/89134.htm)

tai chi helps chronic conditions
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/83/97754.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/83/97754.htm)

[thaiboxerken]

once again, no one is advocating that. You are inserting things


Then stop attacking my statement that pretending to to Tai Chi is probably just as beneficial to health than doing "real" Tai Chi. Stop trying to convince people that they need to learn from an instructor to get the health benefits. The only thing really important is to actually do low-impact exercise, as far as health goes.

[sackett]

I thought it was an old* story that t’ai chi moves are functional martial techniques. I was taught that the idea was to learn a small inventory of moves that would suffice for all emergencies.

I’ve seen TC done fast, medium, and slow, and practiced it all three ways, and I’m all for slow solo practice; it’s good for you, dammit! Also, the meditative aspect is good for your mind: it makes you a cannier, more watchful boxer. It does not make you in any way tougher or stronger, and there certainly is no such thing as chi.

Yes, I can speak with about 12.5% authority. Heck, I’m the guy who invented Sai Chi (copyright 1977, all rights reserved, keepa you hands off). I’d seen sword and staff forms, and had a pair of sai I didn’t know what to do with. One day I started solo practice with my trusty sai in my hands, and presto! I discovered that those moves are adaptable to that nasty-looking weapon. Somewhere in the world there’s an old super-8 movie of me demonstrating my marvelous martial art. If you own a pair of sai and like TC, try your hand at it. Fun! .

*Not extremely old, of course. We have no evidence of TC before the 18th. century. That may seem pretty venerable to the red-faced sea devils, but in China it’s yesterday afternoon.

[firecoins]

Stop trying to convince people that they need to learn from an instructor to get the health benefits.

what drugs are you? Can I get some?

[gurugeorge]

Then stop attacking my statement that pretending to to Tai Chi is probably just as beneficial to health than doing "real" Tai Chi. Stop trying to convince people that they need to learn from an instructor to get the health benefits. The only thing really important is to actually do low-impact exercise, as far as health goes.

Taiji is only low impact in the Long Form (the main, basic training form, the "slow" form), but for the rest it's as athletic as any martial art (depending on the intensity of training).

Here are some clips of forms and push hands in Chen style Taijiquan (these sorts of clips have only started appearing on the internet in the last 3 or 4 years or so). The other styles, taught authentically, are perhaps a bit less athletic than Chen, but not by much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znVWJ4PmURw (Wang Xian demonstrating some locks and takedowns from push hands. Push hands is the intermediate step between grasping the body mechanics through lots of practice of the Long Form, and actually fighting. There's quite an involved, graduated series of drills, getting more and more free-form and more and more like free fighting.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g (Chen Xiaowang - 60 years old here, so at least we know Taiji training isn't positively detrimental to your health! - demonstrating "fajin". This is the "other half" of Taiji, the ability to hit damn hard with any part of the body, from any angle, which complements the "soft" strategy demonstrated in the sensitivity training of push hands practice.)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6618160624251027808 (A slow motion clip showing some of the whole-body mechanics involved in a side punch - note how the movement starts at the feet - Taiji derives power from the solidity of the ground, directs that solidity of the ground through the waist, and express it at whatever bodily part is closest and most convenient. The principle is to end up with a connected line of bones from the ground to the target at the point of impact, with the only muscles being tense at that point being the muscles that maintain the line of bones as a rigid transmitter of the ground's solidity, the rest of the body being more or less relaxed - although there are sophisticated additives from the correct kind of whole body tension at the point of impact too.)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9037572490314650002 (A clip showing the Big Knife, a sort of halberd, which is quite heavy)

[firecoins]

TBK obviously has no idea what tai chi is. His advice should not be taken. You need an intructor to learn Tai Chi. If you are looking for just the health benefits one get from tai chi without the instructor may I suggest qigong. http://www.amazon.com/Eight-Simple-Qigong-Exercises-Health/dp/B00016USR8/sr=8-3/qid=1162927665/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-5316268-8624166?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

This qigong is easier to learn properly from DVD. I learned it in a 2 day workshop.

[Wudang]

TBK obviously has no idea what tai chi is. His advice should not be taken. You need an intructor to learn Tai Chi. If you are looking for just the health benefits one get from tai chi without the instructor may I suggest qigong. http://www.amazon.com/Eight-Simple-Qigong-Exercises-Health/dp/B00016USR8/sr=8-3/qid=1162927665/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-5316268-8624166?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

This qigong is easier to learn properly from DVD. I learned it in a 2 day workshop.
I learned the 8 Brocade in 10 minutes. Wrote it down and never did it. Totally pointless. Sorry. I have a simple belief that if it doesn't warm me up, make me breathe hard or hurt a bit it's probably not doing me any good. Unless it's beer or wine of course.

[Wudang]

Nearly forgot - Neil Rosiak, trained full contact with Dan Docherty, did shootfighting for a while and had 1 professional Vale Tudo fight which he drew. The names rare so most google hits are him.
The core of his style is tai chi. His website is http://www.renaissancetaichichuan.com/media.html

[firecoins]

Wrote it down and never did it.
And thats why its pointless. You never did it.

Keep in mind, it isn't a warm up in the sense ofjogging for 20 minutes

[drkitten]

The core of his style is tai chi. His website is http://www.renaissancetaichichuan.com/media.html

Wow. A good example to use next time I need to illustrate the idea of "web pages that suck and blow at the same time."

[Wudang]

And thats why its pointless. You never did it.
No I did it once as I learned it and found nothing in it that I couldn't get better and quicker in hand form, nei kung, san ti, or a stroll with my dog.

[firecoins]

No I did it once as I learned it and found nothing in it that I couldn't get better and quicker in hand form, nei kung, san ti, or a stroll with my dog.
I recommended it for people who didn't have time to learn tai chi.So there is no point in brining up up that you get more from doing tai chi. I certainly get more from this than the crap I have to pick up walking a dog.

[drkitten]

I recommended it for people who didn't have time to learn tai chi. I get more from several things that I do.

The problem is, if you get more from a walk in the park (I agree with Wudang there about the usefulness of 8 pieces, and would in fact extend that to all the chi kung I've been taught), then why not simply go to the park instead? Why waste time learning the second-best when you already know how to do the first?

[Wudang]

They'd be better with Wang Xuanjie's stuff.

[firecoins]

The problem is, if you get more from a walk in the park (I agree with Wudang there about the usefulness of 8 pieces, and would in fact extend that to all the chi kung I've been taught), then why not simply go to the park instead? Why waste time learning the second-best when you already know how to do the first?
I did not say I get more from a walkin the park.

[firecoins]

The 8 pieces are a meditation/breathing excercise. When I did this regularly, it helped with focus, decreasing stress & general posture. It must be done daily for 30 minutes. That is what it is supposed to do. Its easy to learn and will fill in the gaps until you know tai chi.

The Yang short form is much better....obviously. It is harder to learn. You could probably learn this from a good dvd. Nothing beats a teacher. Leran the form from the dvd and than find a group of people who may do in the morning at a local park. I am sure you can find someone who will fill stuff thats missing. Maybe someone will do push hands with you, if somethere knows it.

[drkitten]

The 8 pieces are a meditation/breathing excercise. When I did this regularly, it helped with focus, decreasing stress & general posture. It must be done daily for 30 minutes. That is what it is supposed to do. Its easy to learn and will fill in the gaps until you know tai chi.

The Yang short form is much better....obviously.

I think this is where I -- and possibly Wudang, although I am somewhat loathe to speak for him -- differ with you.

I do not consider "the Yang short form" to be "much better," nor do I consider the eight pieces to be a valuable "meditation/breathing" exercise. If all you want is "focus, decreasing stress & general posture," then a walk in the part or a decent set of football stretches will do you that for you. Or, for that matter, improvising slow range-of-motion exercises as TBK suggests.

The people in the park who are waving their hands like fat Westerners usually aren't doing themselves much good either.

Tai chi is an extremely effective and useful martial art when taught properly. As I believe I mentioned upthread, I know of something like four instructors, world-wide, that know how to use tai chi as a martial art (and that teach it) and that can get the sort of health benefits that one would expect of a genuine martial art system out of it. (I was privileged to study, briefly, under one of them.)

The people waving their hands in the park are wasting time and money.

[firecoins]

I think this is where I -- and possibly Wudang, although I am somewhat loathe to speak for him -- differ with you.

I do not consider "the Yang short form" to be "much better," nor do I consider the eight pieces to be a valuable "meditation/breathing" exercise. If all you want is "focus, decreasing stress & general posture," then a walk in the part or a decent set of football stretches will do you that for you. Or, for that matter, improvising slow range-of-motion exercises as TBK suggests.

The people in the park who are waving their hands like fat Westerners usually aren't doing themselves much good either.

Tai chi is an extremely effective and useful martial art when taught properly. As I believe I mentioned upthread, I know of something like four instructors, world-wide, that know how to use tai chi as a martial art (and that teach it) and that can get the sort of health benefits that one would expect of a genuine martial art system out of it. (I was privileged to study, briefly, under one of them.)

The people waving their hands in the park are wasting time and money.
If you have read upthread than you know I have mentioned Tai Chi as an effective martial art in many posts.

[drkitten]

If you have read upthread than you know I have mentioned Tai Chi as an effective martial art in many posts.


I know. But you are also suggesting that the people who practice what they think is "tai chi" in the part are doing themselves any good.

And we disagree there.

TBK recognizes -- correctly, in my opinion -- that the park tai chi is worse than useless. What he doesn't recognize is that real tai chi exists, it's just extremely rare. You seem not to recognize the difference between the park tai chi and the real stuff.....

[firecoins]

I know. But you are also suggesting that the people who practice what they think is "tai chi" in the part are doing themselves any good.

And we disagree there.

TBK recognizes -- correctly, in my opinion -- that the park tai chi is worse than useless. What he doesn't recognize is that real tai chi exists, it's just extremely rare. You seem not to recognize the difference between the park tai chi and the real stuff.....
NO! I recognize the real stuff. I realize that the forms a small part of it. That small part of it is useful to those who want some health benfits. People are not going to find people teaching the whole art. Its rare.

[Wudang]

NO! I recognize the real stuff. I realize that the forms a small part of it. That small part of it is useful to those who want some health benfits. People are not going to find people teaching the whole art. Its rare.
No. Sorry. If you think you can learn anything useful about the form from a DVD you are completely misinformed about tai chi. It's hard enough to teach tai chi when you're actually standing over someone. It's not about the form, it's how you do the form. Most people doing the hand form are like people continually typing the same program into their computers thing it's going to make them programmers when they don't understand a single line of the code.
And I'm with the good drkitten, most people doing "the ancient art of directing traffic in the park" would be better off spending the time walking.

[firecoins]

No. Sorry. If you think you can learn anything useful about the form from a DVD you are completely misinformed about tai chi.

Once again, I didn't say that. The original poster said he did not have enough money to afford an instructor so I suggest qigong in place of learning the form. I suggested the a dvd of the form until he could get an instructor.

I didn't say the dvd replaced the instructor. I didn't say qigong replaced an instructor. I didn't say qigong was just as good as tai chi. I didn't say to make things up. I didn't say that tai chi has successfully been used in MMA. In fact I didn't bring up MMA.

I DID say there was more to tai chi than just the forms and that good intructors are rare. Being that there are so few good instructors, I guess it would be good to suspect any instructor, particularly those based in a new age center right next to a yoga class that probably has been altered as well.

I suggested qigong and dvd in place of instructor to begin the learning of the form until he could afford the instructor. If this wasn't clear I apologize.

[Cuddles]

And I'm with the good drkitten, most people doing "the ancient art of directing traffic in the park" would be better off spending the time walking.

But this just comes back to the question of enjoyment. Some people don't like walking in the park, but do enjoy directing traffic in it. While it may not be as good exercise as walking, it is much better than sitting at home in front of the TV, and they are doing something they like instead of something they find incredibly boring.

[drkitten]

Once again, I didn't say that. The original poster said he did not have enough money to afford an instructor so I suggest qigong in place of learning the form. I suggested the a dvd of the form until he could get an instructor.

Right. And this is where I'm expressing my concern.

Suppose I said to you that I had just been diagnosed with some serious, maybe lethal disease, but I couldn't afford the necessary medicine.

Would you suggest that I buy homeopathic "magic water" until I can afford the real stuff?

Would you suggest I make "good-will" offerings to the local faith healer until I can afford to buy medicine?

I hope not. Because the quackery is useless. And spending money on the quackery makes it worse than useless, because I'm not saving that money towards the real medicine?

I believe that qi gong and the ancient art of traffic direction are useless. I believe that DVDs on qi gong and the ancient art of traffic direction are expensive and useless, which makes them worse then useless, by the same argument above.

[firecoins]

Right. And this is where I'm expressing my concern.

Suppose I said to you that I had just been diagnosed with some serious, maybe lethal disease, but I couldn't afford the necessary medicine.

Would you suggest that I buy homeopathic "magic water" until I can afford the real stuff?

Would you suggest I make "good-will" offerings to the local faith healer until I can afford to buy medicine?

I hope not. Because the quackery is useless. And spending money on the quackery makes it worse than useless, because I'm not saving that money towards the real medicine?

I believe that qi gong and the ancient art of traffic direction are useless. I believe that DVDs on qi gong and the ancient art of traffic direction are expensive and useless, which makes them worse then useless, by the same argument above.


Running, aerobics and weight lifting won't cure cancer either and yet the medical community still recommend these activities to stay in shape. Yes you can get dvds on all these activities. I posted articles earlier in the thread from Web MD recommending tai chi as exercise. But those medical doctors who based their recommendations on studies are just recommending quackery.

[jon]

I believe that qi gong and the ancient art of traffic direction are useless. I believe that DVDs on qi gong and the ancient art of traffic direction are expensive and useless, which makes them worse then useless, by the same argument above.

Would you put it that strongly? As cuddles has said, if people enjoy doing this type of thing, wouldn't it at least be better than sitting in front of the TV? (I enjoy juggling, and find that it helps with balance and coordination; I know there's more effective things I could do, but I find juggling more fun...) If the ancient art of traffic direction is no better than waving your arms around in a completely made up way (I don't have the information to say either way) then couldn't one just make up the traffic directions - at least then the exercise would be inefficient and free...

[drkitten]

Would you put it that strongly?

Didn't I? Just now?

Actually, I toned down how I would like to put it, in deference to the JREF's family-friendly forum pollicy.

If the ancient art of traffic direction is no better than waving your arms around in a completely made up way (I don't have the information to say either way) then couldn't one just make up the traffic directions - at least then the exercise would be inefficient and free...

And if it were free, it would indeed be inefficient and free.

But DVDs on traffic direction are inefficient and expensive in terms of both time and money, --- which makes them worse than something ineffecient and free.

[drkitten]

Running, aerobics and weight lifting won't cure cancer either and yet the medical community still recommend these activities to stay in shape.

But not to cure cancer.

If you want to "stay in shape," then there's no reason to spend time and money on DVDs telling you things you already know.

I posted articles earlier in the thread from Web MD recommending tai chi as exercise. But those medical doctors who based their recommendations on studies are just recommending quackery.

A doctor who sells you bottled tap water for a thousand percent markup is just recommending quackery, yes. Dehydration is legitimate medical problem -- but there's nothing special about any particular form of water to justify additional expense.

[firecoins]

But not to cure cancer..

No one recommeded it to cure cancer. In my very first post I said it didn't prevent cancer. Or any other disease.

[jon]

Didn't I? Just now?

Actually, I toned down how I would like to put it, in deference to the JREF's family-friendly forum pollicy.


Fair enough. However, unless there's something particularly damaging about traffic direction, I'd argue that even an inefficient form of exercise is better than useless. If people are persuaded to do traffic direction instead of something more effective, I can see how that would be a problem; if they do it as an alternative to not doing exercise, I don't see the harm in it.

[T'ai Chi]

"Dr Kitten" can believe and opine all he wants.

Unfortunately, for him, there are medical studies showing otherwise, and the fact, already pointed out, that people enjoy doing it.

[thaiboxerken]

People enjoy crack-cocaine as well.

[drkitten]

"Dr Kitten" can believe and opine all he wants.

Unfortunately, for him, there are medical studies showing otherwise.

Yeah. It's a pity that you've not been able to find any that TBK hasn't been able to shred completely.

[Cuddles]

But DVDs on traffic direction are inefficient and expensive in terms of both time and money, --- which makes them worse than something ineffecient and free.

Expensive? DVDs don't usually cost more than about £10. Someone waving their arms around randomly is unlikely to stretch or exercise all their muscles, so having a DVD will help them exercise at least a little better than they would otherwise. Also, I think the sort of person that would work out from a DVD is unlikely to be the sort of person who is willing to stand in a park waving their arms around and looking like a complete muppet, while they would have no problem doing so under direction in the comfort of their own home. I think we all agree that DVDs are far from ideal, but to claim that they are worse than nothing is going a little too far.

[firecoins]

I did the Yang form in the middle of the street. I was able to redirect traffic with only 4 ounces of force.