Does hell give life meaning?

[advancedatheist]

I've noticed that when theists criticize atheism, they get hung up on the idea that in the absence of gods, life lacks an externally imposed "meaning," usually interpreted as the "eternal destiny" (ED) chosen for you by a god.

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, because if christians (especially Calvinists) believe that their god has chosen "hell" as the default ED of the overwhelming majority of humanity in the afterlife, then I see the following implication:

Major premise: The ED god chooses for you gives your life meaning.

Minor premise: God chooses hell as your ED.

Conclusion: Hell gives your life meaning.

So when the christian threatens an atheist with hell, should the atheist respond with, "Hey, if I go to hell, my life will have meaning after all. Thank you, god"?

[Beth]

No.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Which hell?

[advancedatheist]

No.

Did I commit a fallacy, or do you dispute one of my premises?

[advancedatheist]

Which hell?

Let's say the standard christian hell, which combines graphic tortures with the allegedly horrific psychological anguish of "eternal separation from god."

[DangerousBeliefs]

Let's say the standard christian hell, which combines graphic tortures with the allegedly horrific psychological anguish of "eternal separation from god."

There isn't a Standard Christian Hell™.

There aren't agreed upon reasons for going to Hell.

There isn't an agreed upon duration of stay in Hell.

If we go by numbers alone, Catholic and Protestant beliefs vary greatly.

[Beth]

Did I commit a fallacy, or do you dispute one of my premises?

I was answering your question.

[Darth Rotor]

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, because if christians (especially Calvinists) believe that their god has chosen "hell" as the default ED of the overwhelming majority of humanity in the afterlife, then I see the following implication:

Major premise: The ED god chooses for you gives your life meaning.

Minor premise: God chooses hell as your ED.

Conclusion: Hell gives your life meaning.

So when the christian threatens an atheist with hell, should the atheist respond with, "Hey, if I go to hell, my life will have meaning after all. Thank you, god"?
No.

Point prologue: I find Christians threatening atheists with Hell a bankrupt approach to differences in world view.
I've noticed that when theists criticize atheism, they get hung up on the idea that in the absence of gods, life lacks an externally imposed "meaning," usually interpreted as the "eternal destiny" (ED) chosen for you by a god.
If one fails to find meaning while living one's life, I don't see how anything in the afterlife will provide it.

As to "Hell giving life meaning" specifically, here are two thoughts to ponder:

1. Not all Christians are Calvinists, nor are all Christians convinced of predestination. I think you risk tarring all Christians with the same brush, which strikes me as a poor point of departure.

2. "Hell" happens after life, so Life's meaning (a nebulous term to begin with) has been overcome by events at the time one reaches to chance to arrive, in some afterlife, at Lucifer Acres Townhomes or the Heavenly Pointe Condominiums.

As has been pointed out, Hell being a physical place, rather than a metaphysical place or condition, is not an agreed convention among all Christians. The best description of Hell I ever heard is "being apart from God, knowing it, and knowing there is no remedy." That's not a physical place. :cool:

Not being a Calvinist, I defer comment on that position to those who are, or were.

DR

[RandFan]

I was answering your question. That's a good first step. An answer is important. Do have a reason for your response or was it simply arbitrary? You see, a discussion such as this isn't advanced by a simple binarary response without context.

BTW, here are some sports scores from last night.

10 - 6
8 - 5
32 - 12

[advancedatheist]

The best description of Hell I ever heard is "being apart from God, knowing it, and knowing there is no remedy."

How does this differ from ordinary human experience? It doesn't seem so bad.

[clarsct]

Death gives life meaning.

[Polaris]

Let's say the standard christian hell, which combines graphic tortures with the allegedly horrific psychological anguish of "eternal separation from god."

I would think that if I was in that situation I wouldn't want to meet the guy to put me there. Or rather, I would want to meet him but not because I was his fan.

[fuelair]

What Beth said.

[Beerina]

I've noticed that when theists criticize atheism, they get hung up on the idea that in the absence of gods, life lacks an externally imposed "meaning," usually interpreted as the "eternal destiny" (ED) chosen for you by a god.

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, because if christians (especially Calvinists) believe that their god has chosen "hell" as the default ED of the overwhelming majority of humanity in the afterlife, then I see the following implication:

Major premise: The ED god chooses for you gives your life meaning.

Minor premise: God chooses hell as your ED.

Conclusion: Hell gives your life meaning.

So when the christian threatens an atheist with hell, should the atheist respond with, "Hey, if I go to hell, my life will have meaning after all. Thank you, god"?

If we all banded together and refused to do this god's bidding, and he threw every single human into Hell, then he's not a very good god, is he? So why is he good if a handful of cowardly people kowtow to him?

[DangerousBeliefs]

If we all banded together and refused to do this god's bidding, and he threw every single human into Hell, then he's not a very good god, is he? So why is he good if a handful of cowardly people kowtow to him?

That's kind of one of the major problems with the concept of Hell and why people go there. If Hell is for all people who aren't baptized or it's for all people who don't accept JC, then that means Hell is filled with like 99% of all people who ever lived (minus some OT Jews).

Of course, what I'm saying doesn't make sense.. and what apologists say does make sense.... if the Earth is only as old as the Bible says and only contains the folks mentioned.

Which is why Hell is just yet another completely whacky idea once you start thinking about it.

[The Atheist]

So when the christian threatens an atheist with hell, should the atheist respond with, "Hey, if I go to hell, my life will have meaning after all. Thank you, god"?Yeah, that's as good an answer as any and it will confuse christians because they're all s**t-scared of going to hell. (The ones who believe in the concept of a pit of fire, etc.)

Essentially, it doesn't matter what you say when talking to christians who would come out with gibberish like, "You're going to hell!" My usual answer is, "Thank god for that - all the catholics, fundamentals and other religious s**theads will be up in heaven and all my family and mates will be in hell, so at least I'll have good company."

Trying to find a clever, apposite answer is a waste of time, stick with the ridiculous, you can't go wrong.

[snooziums]

"You're going to hell!" My usual answer is, "Thank god for that - all the catholics, fundamentals and other religious ...

But, but, the Catholics, and the Fundamentalists cannot stand each other. If they ended up in heaven together, they would start killing each other for God's affection.

Then again, that might be fun to watch...

[Godmode]

I love to oversimplify... so here I go:
God is the father figure
Hell is the spanking
Heaven is the unexpected trip to McDonald's for the good little kiddies.

Now, think back to childhood, was it the rewards and punishments that gave your life meaning or was it the experiences and discoveries? Speaking for myself it was the latter.

[JackPT]

Trying to find a clever, apposite answer is a waste of time, stick with the ridiculous, you can't go wrong.

I tend to say: We're all going to die. If there is no afterlife it's more of a reason to be good because all that's going to be left behind is memories of us. I'm sure that in many atheists "I must be a good person because I'm going to heaven" has been replaced with "I must be a good person because this is the only chance I've got".

You're right though, it rarely works with believers :(. Those sitting on the fence often concede I've got a point.

Edit: Changed 'reason to be as good' to 'reason to be good', because it was a typo and made no sense.

[Skeptical Greg]

Death gives life meaning. Wouldn't it be the other way around ?

[Glen.Nogami]

-Hell does not exist.

-Watch out, you'll go to hell.

-Oh no-wait, what?

[ceo_esq]

There isn't an agreed upon duration of stay in Hell.

That's interesting. I was under the impression that, among Christians, one of the points of general agreement on the subject was that Hell was a perpetual state. Do you know of particular Christian denominations that take a different view?

[triadboy]

That's interesting. I was under the impression that, among Christians, one of the points of general agreement on the subject was that Hell was a perpetual state. Do you know of particular Christian denominations that take a different view?

In Lost Christianities (Ehrman), there was an early church father who thought all people in hell would eventually be reunited with people in heaven. He was, of course, excommincated for such a charitable outlook. (It might have been Origen)

[triadboy]

That's interesting. I was under the impression that, among Christians, one of the points of general agreement on the subject was that Hell was a perpetual state. Do you know of particular Christian denominations that take a different view?

Latter-day scriptures describe at least three senses of hell: (1) that condition of misery which may attend a person in mortality due to disobedience to divine law; (2) the miserable, but temporary, state of disobedient spirits in the spirit world awaiting the resurrection; (3) the permanent habitation of the sons of perdition, who suffer the second spiritual death and remain in hell even after the resurrection.

Persons experiencing the first type of hell can be rescued from suffering through repentance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/hell_eom.htm

[ceo_esq]

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/hell_eom.htm

Thanks. I did not know that.

[ChristineR]

Lots of Christian sects reject the idea of "hell." There isn't even one word in the Bible that is translated as "hell." It is an interesting theological exercise to compare Bible translations and see which words get rendered as "hell," as opposed to "Gehenna" (an actual place near Jerusalem) or "shadow" or "the pit" or "Hades."

[infornography]

The concept of hell is not universally accepted among serious biblical scholars. To many there is Heaven and there is nothing else. You either continue with eternal life in Heaven or you are simply no more.

[DangerousBeliefs]

That's interesting. I was under the impression that, among Christians, one of the points of general agreement on the subject was that Hell was a perpetual state. Do you know of particular Christian denominations that take a different view?

I see that's somewhat been answered already. There is also:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hell_eva1.htm (and I'm sure other links)

The reason it gains ground is because logically, a finite duration in Hell wraps up all these pesky problems about Hell. "Well, babies go there but just for like a day before ascending to Heaven. But murderers? They're there for thousands of years."

I actually thought Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice suggested an interesting view of Hell as a place where the damned go to get redeemed. It also presents an interesting view of God as vain, naive, and fallable, who gets into a bet with Memnoch (Satan) about human behavior and refuses to concede the bet.

[Skeptical Greg]

That's interesting. I was under the impression that, among Christians, one of the points of general agreement on the subject was that Hell was a perpetual state. Do you know of particular Christian denominations that take a different view?

Interesting question in light of the OP..

Do you consider JW's to be a Christian denomination ?


http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2002/7/15/article_02.htm