Scientology: What can we do about it?

[Achán hiNidráne]

Yes, yes, yes... we've all laughed at the South Park episode "Trapped In The Closet" as well as the lunacy of Zenu, Thetans, DC-3 shaped spaceships, and Tom Cruise's antics. However, I've been taking a long hard look at Scientology lately and I find that the reality is nothing to be laughed at. I've read about the case of Lisa McPherson, learned how the Church practically owns Clearwater, FL, saw the videos at XenuTV of CoS thugs assaulting and harassing "SPs" for daring to speak out about their cult, and read many other stories of the Church's activities. I've come to one opinion:

The Church of Scientology is not a religion, but a criminal organization that should be shut down and it's leaders prosecuted for, among other things, fraud and extortion.

OK, that said, the question before the house is what the hell can we do about it? The United States government seems to have done little to deal with the situation. In fact the U.S. Supreme Court, in a supreme act of stupidity, has ruled that Scientology is indeed a religion, allowing it to hide behind the first amendment (as well as enjoy the benefits of tax-exempt status).. What is it going to take to stop this UFO-cult gone bad once and for all? How many more people are going to be hurt before someone does something?

I really want to know.

[TragicMonkey]

They'll go too far one day, probably by murdering one of their celebrity pets. Or maybe a celebrity pet will grow some brains and expose them first. Maybe Oprah will be attacked on her set by another one, lose her temper, and mobilize her army of fans to annihilate the cult. Pitchforks and torches time! Then it's off to the bookstore to buy what Oprah commands them to.

[Bikewer]

Even the big tell-all cover article in Time magazine seemed to have made very little impression.

[tkingdoll]

They offer something extremely attractive to hook people in. People want what they appear to offer (a relief from stress) so they will always appeal to some.

There is such a thing as personal responsibility, if an individual gets involved in a cult then that person shares equal blame with the cult itself.

I think if you want to tackle the extremely rich and powerful entity that is Scientology, ridicule is a good start (as per South Park) but the most important thing to do is educate the public on who they really are and what they want. And that means almost as much work and resources as the Scientologists. For example, make your own leaflets and stand next to their leafleters - protest outside their headquarters, etc.

If you can educate an individual in the dangers of the cult, then they may decide to avoid it. Or they may go for it anyway, and that is their own choice. There's nothing you can do to stop the latter.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I think if you want to tackle the extremely rich and powerful entity that is Scientology, ridicule is a good start (as per South Park) but the most important thing to do is educate the public on who they really are and what they want. And that means almost as much work and resources as the Scientologists. For example, make your own leaflets and stand next to their leafleters - protest outside their headquarters, etc.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's enough. We have instances of intimidation and extortion going on here. We have a cult who practically owns a town in Florida along with it's police department. We have a young woman being held prisoner by this same cult until she died. If this isn't illegal it damn well should be.

Education and ridicule is not enough. We need arrests. We need prosecutions. We need felony convictions and long-term prison sentences. The U.S. government must state, once and for all, that this cult-turned-mafia will not be allowed to exist.

[Darth Rotor]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's enough. We have instances of intimidation and extortion going on here. We have a cult who practically owns a town in Florida along with it's police department. We have a young woman being held prisoner by this same cult until she died. If this isn't illegal it damn well should be.

Education and ridicule is not enough. We need arrests. We need prosecutions. We need felony convictions and long-term prison sentences. The U.S. government must state, once and for all, that this cult-turned-mafia will not be allowed to exist.
So, have you filed charges? Have you filed an amica curiae brief at the local district court? While Hubbard was still alive, a number of Scientology members were successfully charged with breaking and entering, and IIRC tax fraud. The current leadership is perhaps slicker it its operations, and able to stay below the radar.

PT Barnum was right.

DR

[tkingdoll]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's enough. We have instances of intimidation and extortion going on here. We have a cult who practically owns a town in Florida along with it's police department. We have a young woman being held prisoner by this same cult until she died. If this isn't illegal it damn well should be.

Education and ridicule is not enough. We need arrests. We need prosecutions. We need felony convictions and long-term prison sentences. The U.S. government must state, once and for all, that this cult-turned-mafia will not be allowed to exist.

Well, OK, what practical measures can you, as an individual, take to help achieve that goal?

Off the top of my head, you could:

- Lobby the government
- collect signatures
- write to law enforcement officials
- send out press releases to the media
- engage your own lawyers to investigate
- start a class action lawsuit on behalf of victims

What are you, as an individual, prepared to do?

[Dunstan]

There was a criminal prosecution in the McPherson case, which apparently was dropped for lack of evidence. There was also a civil case, which was settled.

Are there other prosecutable incidents?

I'm all in favor of civil and/or criminal actions where appropriate, but you can't dismantle an entire organization because they've stepped over the line a few times. I think those in the Roman Catholic hierarchy who committed or covered up child abuse should be prosecuted, too, but that doesn't mean I'm prepared to say that the entire R.C. church is a criminal organization.

[HarryKeogh]

isn't every religion is guilty of fraud.

Anyway, their numbers are down from the 80's. The internet has been the worst enemy of Scientology and IMO will be most responsible for its eventual downfall. If I had access to the information readily available today I never would have taken several courses there and a family member wouldn't have wasted several years of his life "volunteering" there. Educate your friends and family if they show an interest in it.

but...

Scientology doesn't "practically own" the Clearwater police department. Hyperbole gets us nowhere.

[fuelair]

There is nothing in the world that can't be fixed by the careful application of small explosive devices.

[thaiboxerken]

The Church of Scientology is not a religion, but a criminal organization that should be shut down and it's leaders prosecuted for, among other things, fraud and extortion.


How is that different from any other religion?

[TragicMonkey]

How is that different from any other religion?

The others have less irritating vocabularies. If one is going to be a conman, at least be one with some style.

[trvlr2]

Oh c'mon! They DO have a style! (very camp, early 50's)Name me another cult quite like them!
And, don't be too sure about them "not " owning the Clearwater city govt. It is the best govt. they can buy.

If any have researched them, you will note that they aggressively prosecute dissenters, and have the pocketbook to make your life very bad. And are not afraid to use it.

Wanta give 'em a piece of your mind?

Church of Scientology(Hell,it's got science in it!Gotta B good)
3102 North Habana Avenue,#F
Tampa, Fl 33607
tel. 813-872-0722

IMO, they are as evil as any other religion. Tax 'em all!

"Did your problems start you were born? Find out-and learn the secret of your real potentials!
Buy and read Dianetics"
Quoted directly from S. handout, delivered to my door. Apparently they got my name from the internet. I suspect "Tickle".
Seems geared to folks whoo see themselves as victims. There seems a lot of "I'm a victim" going around.

[HarryKeogh]

Wanta give 'em a piece of your mind?

Church of Scientology(Hell,it's got science in it!Gotta B good)
3102 North Habana Avenue,#F
Tampa, Fl 33607
tel. 813-872-0722


Just hope you don't accidentally wind up on their mailing list because you'll be getting their junk mail every day for the rest of your life!

[trvlr2]

Yeh, there's that, Harry. But, it was business reply mail- I hope they have to pay for it. I don't think that they have frank privilege. And, if they pay, it keeps the postal workers from going postal.

[TragicMonkey]

Just hope you don't accidentally wind up on their mailing list because you'll be getting their junk mail every day for the rest of your life!

They also have a history of going to the homes of potential converts and digging through the trash, looking for blackmail information. I wouldn't give my name or address to those creeps.

[a_unique_person]

Evidence?

[Moochie]

The best way to tackle cults like this is to educate people -- starting in Kindergarten.

Not indoctrinating children into any field of woo would be a good beginning. Of course, this includes all religions. Check out Richard Dawkins on that score.

People raised to think for themselves and given the tools to test evidence are highly unlikely to be influenced by woo ideas.

M.

[Orangutan]

Don't pay to see any John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, Beck, Isaac Hayes, Tom Cruise or Katie Holmes films.

It's not really a sacrifice if you think about it.
:)

[ponderingturtle]

Don't pay to see any John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, Beck, Isaac Hayes, Tom Cruise or Katie Holmes films.

It's not really a sacrifice if you think about it.
:)

I don't know, Neil Gaiman was raised sceintologist, and that might well constitute a sacrifice.

[Brian Jackson]

I did some volunteer work for the Lisa McPherson Trust (a scientology watchdog group) back in 2001. I drove to Clearwater from Michigan, and within 10 minutes of my arrival I was served with injunction papers merely because I entered the LMT building. Mind you I'd never been to Clearwater before.

The bicycle-riding server basically threw the papers at me, so we called the police to report it. Lo and behold, two Scientology cops (off-duty police hired by Scientology) show up and hound me for personal information rather than details of the incident. I recognized the cops because they were hired as security guards for the Scientology building next door. This begs the question: If we called the Police HQ main dispatch, why would they send two officers that were OFF-DUTY?

The day just got stranger from there. My wife and I could go nowhere in the city without being followed or videotaped. I'm guessing Clearwater isn't big on tourism.

[Orangutan]

I don't know, Neil Gaiman was raised sceintologist, and that might well constitute a sacrifice.

His father, David Gaiman, is a prominent Scientologist, and in 1968 a school headmaster refused to admit Neil to a preparatory school unit because of this, creating national headlines.[4]

Although of Jewish origins, he was educated at several Church of England schools, including Ardingly College, West Sussex, an independent boarding school. There, he studied both standard school topics as well as religion classes. This training gave him a wide background in both Jewish and Christian theology/apocrypha, which he incorporates heavily into his works, perhaps most notably in The Sandman.

That seems like quite a mixed upbringing to me. Should the sins of the fathers be visited upon their sons?
;)

[ponderingturtle]

That seems like quite a mixed upbringing to me. Should the sins of the fathers be visited upon their sons?
;)

How do you determine if the son is commiting them as well or not? Has he said anything about this one way or the other?

[PeterB]

They also have a history of going to the homes of potential converts and digging through the trash, looking for blackmail information. I wouldn't give my name or address to those creeps.

You don't have to give it if you are in the phone book.

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/cchr.htm

[Skeptic Guy]

There is nothing in the world that can't be fixed by the careful application of small explosive devices.

Hey, are we talking free fall here? Are you taking a page from our government's operations manual? :D

[Skeptic Guy]

I don't know how many of you work or live in NYC, but if you do and commute through the Port Authority or Grand Central Station, at times you will run across the Scientology goons with their E-meters offering free "stress tests" and copies of Dyanetics.

If one of them asks me if I want a free stress test I laugh and tell them that its not a stress test and does nothing but I want to do more. What would you guys do if you ran across a group doing the same? Anything?

I have thought to put together a one-sheet with information on what Scientology is really about and hand it to the suckers that are getting the speel but am not sure if it is legal.

Thoughts?

[Glen.Nogami]

I dunno, can it be libel if it's true?

As to the question of the OP,

The Cultural Revolution: It worked for Mao, and with a few modifications, it can work for the scientologists too!

Time to be re-educated, comrade. Or rather, educated...

[Canadian Malcontent]

I don't know how many of you work or live in NYC, but if you do and commute through the Port Authority or Grand Central Station, at times you will run across the Scientology goons with their E-meters offering free "stress tests" and copies of Dyanetics.

If one of them asks me if I want a free stress test I laugh and tell them that its not a stress test and does nothing but I want to do more. What would you guys do if you ran across a group doing the same? Anything?

I have thought to put together a one-sheet with information on what Scientology is really about and hand it to the suckers that are getting the speel but am not sure if it is legal.

Thoughts?

I bet they will sic their lawyers on you for that.
But what if street people were hired to do it? They wouldnt be threatened by any of the tactics employed against those of us with property. They can be very difficult to intimidate.

[ponderingturtle]

I dunno, can it be libel if it's true?


That is for the lawyers to determine, and they have more than you.

[kellyb]

How do you determine if the son is commiting them as well or not? Has he said anything about this one way or the other?

I'm a pretty big Gaiman fan, and I've never hear of him advocating or endorsing any religion.
I might have missed it, though, but I've read quite a few interviews of him.

[kellyb]

Ok. Got curious about Gaiman and looked around a bit. :)
Here's an interview with him where the subject of religion was touched upon:


http://www.bookslut.com/features/2006_10_010057.php

How did your interest in mythology start?

I wish I had an origin story for you. When I was four, I was bitten by a radioactive myth.
And...
Given that we’re living in a universe in which religions and mythologies and semi-imaginary things, depending on where you’re standing, the level of imaginariness…. There are definitely people who look at the entirety of what’s going on the world today as a couple of people fighting over whose imaginary friend likes them better. And then you’ve got people who say, “No, no, this isn’t an imaginary friend, he’s actually the real thing. But that guy over there, he’s an imaginary friend.” And it’s huge and it’s responsible for an enormous amount of worry and difficulty and it’s why I’m not allowed to travel with eight ounces of shampoo. I’m allowed four ounces. I’m going to have to pour away half of my shampoo before I can put it in my quart bag and put it in my carryon. Which is really bizarre.

And that’s because of people arguing over things that many people regard as imaginary. Chiefly, gods, religions, and national boundaries, which are absolutely imaginary. They’re completely notional. They don’t tend to exist. As soon as you pull back half a mile and look down at the Earth there are no national boundaries. There aren’t even any national boundaries when you get down and walk around. They’re just imaginary lines we draw on maps.

I don’t know where I got to from that. It was more sort of a rant. I just get fascinated by people who assume that things that are imaginary have no relevance to their lives. Things like mythology have no real relationship to what happens to them day by day. There. End rant. Sorry.

So, I don't think he buys into the dark lord Xenu's enslavement of the earthlings. (or whatever the hell it is that they believe).

[Skeptic Guy]

That's it, I'll hire the homeless. I contribute to their well being by providing some income and put them in a potentiall litigious situation. Diabolical.

[Elizabeth I]

I dunno, can it be libel if it's true?
Not in the U.S. - that was the point of the Zenger case. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger; http://www.courts.state.ny.us/history/zenger.htm)

[Dave1001]

I bet they will sic their lawyers on you for that.
But what if street people were hired to do it? They wouldnt be threatened by any of the tactics employed against those of us with property. They can be very difficult to intimidate.

2 (unfortunate) words for you: respondant superior.

[Canadian Malcontent]

2 (unfortunate) words for you: respondant superior.

Homes,

I did not say homeless I said street people.
Do you believe street people are 'different'?
In need of the special consideration of your patronage?
Is it possible for a street person to possess the ... shall we say... sociopolitical acumen necessary to engage such employment with knowledge of and appreciation for both the risk and reward it entails?
Were you aware that the poorest districts give the most to charity?
(percentage-wise)
Perhaps those of us with less 'stuff' on their scales might readily percieve a truer and deeper appreciation of the reward of such a labour? And place comensurate value upon it.
But that would involve working with and possibly becoming friends with street people. Is that the underlying problem you have with my suggestion?

Yf, Canadian Malcontent

[Canadian Malcontent]

Further;
When i had nothing, litigation was the last of my worries.

[zizzybaluba]

Homes,

I did not say homeless I said street people.
Do you believe street people are 'different'?
In need of the special consideration of your patronage?
Is it possible for a street person to possess the ... shall we say... sociopolitical acumen necessary to engage such employment with knowledge of and appreciation for both the risk and reward it entails?
Were you aware that the poorest districts give the most to charity?
(percentage-wise)
Perhaps those of us with less 'stuff' on their scales might readily percieve a truer and deeper appreciation of the reward of such a labour? And place comensurate value upon it.
But that would involve working with and possibly becoming friends with street people. Is that the underlying problem you have with my suggestion?

Yf, Canadian Malcontent

I think you misunderstand Dave's Latin:
respondeat superior (http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=1827)

[ponderingturtle]

Ok. Got curious about Gaiman and looked around a bit. :)
Here's an interview with him where the subject of religion was touched upon:


http://www.bookslut.com/features/2006_10_010057.php


And...


So, I don't think he buys into the dark lord Xenu's enslavement of the earthlings. (or whatever the hell it is that they believe).

The thing is that Scientologists don't believe in any god, they beleive that we would all have godlike powers if we could get rid of all of our hang ups. The only statement there that could be dirrectly related to scientology is the religion point, and there are plenty of ways to weasel around that.

[Brian Jackson]

I especially like some of Hubbard's more hairbrained philosophies. Here's a nice collection of his recorded lecture clips (http://www.rr.cistron.nl/xenu/quotes.htm) where you'll hear such gems as Jesus was a "lover of young boys," along with "There was no Christ."

So much for Scientology's bait-'n-switch that they're "compatible" with all other religions.

[Glen.Nogami]

... shall we say... sociopolitical acumen

Oh, I think we shall!

Sociopolitical acumen.

[Dave1001]

I meant respondeat superior.

[kellyb]

The thing is that Scientologists don't believe in any god, they beleive that we would all have godlike powers if we could get rid of all of our hang ups. The only statement there that could be dirrectly related to scientology is the religion point, and there are plenty of ways to weasel around that.

Hmm...that's a good point. He was talking about "imaginary friends" (which scientologists don't appear to believe in) and didn't mention imaginary enemies...which scientologists do appear to believe in.

What about this?
Doesn't scientology pressure it's members to be outspoken about scientology? I can't find Gaiman anywhere mentioning belonging to the cult...so doesn't his silence on the issue imply that he's not a member?:confused:

And yeah...I realise that's sort of an argument from incredulity there...

[ponderingturtle]

Hmm...that's a good point. He was talking about "imaginary friends" (which scientologists don't appear to believe in) and didn't mention imaginary enemies...which scientologists do appear to believe in.

What about this?
Doesn't scientology pressure it's members to be outspoken about scientology? I can't find Gaiman anywhere mentioning belonging to the cult...so doesn't his silence on the issue imply that he's not a member?:confused:

And yeah...I realise that's sort of an argument from incredulity there...

I haven't heard any connection he has to it, other than being raised by a scientologist. But I have not heard any comments either way from him.

[Brian Jackson]

Hmm...that's a good point. He was talking about "imaginary friends" (which scientologists don't appear to believe in)...

Unless you consider that we're all infested with the spirits of murdered space aliens. Read their OT3 "tech." Come to think of it, isn't that kinda what it feels like during certain drug withdraw? Hmmm...

[ponderingturtle]

Unless you consider that we're all infested with the spirits of murdered space aliens. Read their OT3 "tech." Come to think of it, isn't that kinda what it feels like during certain drug withdraw? Hmmm...

But those are real, not imaginary.

[Brian Jackson]

But those are real, not imaginary.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. I forgot they show up on the E-meter. My bad.:blush:

[Canadian Malcontent]

Dave Zizzy Thanks,
I thought Dave was calling me names HaHaHa !
No problem ! Dont give them your name , pay them in cash.

And another thing,

Sociopolitical acumen..... for crying out loud!!!!

[ponderingturtle]

Oh, yeah. Sorry. I forgot they show up on the E-meter. My bad.:blush:

Exactly. It is easy for believers of anything to ridicule the beliefs of others with out applying what they are saying to their own beliefs.

[Tanstaafl]

I dunno, can it be libel if it's true?


It doesn't matter if it's libel or not. Their goal is not to win lawsuits, it's to harrass. They have fired lawyers who have shown any concern for whether there is substance to their cases. Their only goal is to make their critics' lives miserable.

[Glen.Nogami]

Well then, we have to fall back on the jackbooted-thugs-in-the-middle-of-the-night purges. Oh well.

Also, Sociopolitical acumen.

[boloboffin]

I just got finished reading Joe Eszterhas's book on screenwriting in Hollywood. You wouldn't believe the incredible breadth of stories he relayed in that book - storys so potentially libelous you cannot believe that he isn't being sued. He names names and partners up the people who were busy fornicating and screwing over each other in Hollywood. He claims to have learned many secrets about Martin Scorcese from Scorcese's wife after they were finished fornicating in Marty's house while Marty was off being a "auteur" someplace.

There is not a single name mentioned of any Scientologist-associated actor in any scandalous way whatsoever. He even says the one thing you dare not do in Hollywood is cross a Scientologist. Ever.

[skeptifem]

there are some seriously creepy videos of people filming things outside of the scientology celebrity center. One guy was filming and walking backwards to pan out and bumped into a security gaurd, and the gaurd called the police saying he was assaulted. There are countless ones on youtube of this kind of thing, if you do anything around the center they will try to get the police involved to try and scare people from making anti scientology films.

As with all kinds of bullies, sometime they are going to mess with the wrong person, and get caught. Crime on such a large scale can not continue on forever. Using the legal system that way is illegal to being with, but I dont see too much that can be done by people outside of the situation.

[Brian Jackson]

One guy was filming and walking backwards to pan out and bumped into a security gaurd, and the gaurd called the police saying he was assaulted.

That would be Mark Bunker. I've done some work for him; He runs a site called XenuTV (http://www.xenutv.com) where he films and/or hosts tons of videos pertaining to Scientology abuses.

[slingblade]

I just got finished reading Joe Eszterhas's book on screenwriting in Hollywood. You wouldn't believe the incredible breadth of stories he relayed in that book - storys so potentially libelous you cannot believe that he isn't being sued.

If the stories are true, I can believe it. Truth is always a defense against libel charges.

I even learned that someone can libel you, but if you're already a laughing-stock, you probably can't recover much in damages. You are, in that case, "libel-proof."

The "libel-proof" plaintiff. A plaintiff is "libel-proof" when his reputation has been irreparably stained by prior publications. At the point the challenged statements are published, then, plaintiff's reputation is already so damaged that a plaintiff cannot recover more than nominal damages for subsequent defamatory statements. Marcone v. Penthouse Int'l Magazine for Men, 754 F.2d 1072, 1079 (3rd Cir. 1985).

:jaw-dropp

[kellyb]

That would be Mark Bunker. I've done some work for him; He runs a site called XenuTV (http://www.xenutv.com) where he films and/or hosts tons of videos pertaining to Scientology abuses.
Woah...I clicked on that link and all I can say is wow. That is one great website...and anyone who's ever deconverted out of any oppressive religion can probably sympathise with the plight of doubting scientologists.

[ponderingturtle]

If the stories are true, I can believe it. Truth is always a defense against libel charges.


The truth does not always win though. Such as the paper that was successfully sued for saying Liberace was gay, and hence forth he could never be gay or he would be guilty of purgery.

[slingblade]

The truth does not always win though. Such as the paper that was successfully sued for saying Liberace was gay, and hence forth he could never be gay or he would be guilty of purgery.

That suit was under U.K. law, however, not U.S. In U.K. law, the burden of proof is reversed.

I had to brief the Sullivan case for my media law class, which was, according to Wiki:

the landmark 1960s case of New York Times v. Sullivan, in which the Supreme Court of the United States modified the law of libel to be in accord with constitutional requirements. The court held that where a public figure was defamed, the plaintiff had to prove not just that an untruthful statement was made, but also that it was made with actual malice - that is, that it was made knowing it to be false or with reckless disregard for the truth. This decision and the ones that followed its lead created a major revolution in the doctrine of libel law.

Since the Liberace case you speak of was in 1956, this modification was not yet in effect, but the burden of proof is still different here, and the case might have been found differently if tried here.

[Canadian Malcontent]

Soc pol acu
Socpolacu
Sock-paul-acue

Socpolacu; a faculty of the mind bearing on the need to distinguish a certain group that misrepresents itself as misrepresenters of themselves.

Maybe not..... Ithink Glen.Nogomi says it best.