Moloch = Owl?

[Axiom_Blade]

OK, I got into a conversation with some conspiracy guy at a party the other night. This person was in deep, too; he was talking about ancient Satanic secret societies that control history, etc. etc. He said he knew all about this from studying history and politics. When I asked him why I hadn't seen any of this in any history books, he said it was because I was looking at the "censored" history.

Anyways, we were discussing Moloch. I said it was a bull, he thinks it's an owl. When I put "Moloch" into the almighty Google (which is probably another part of the Conspiracy by now), I found a bunch of references to a half-bull, half-man deity. When I put in "moloch owl", I got a bunch of links to Bohemian Grove, and hidden owls on dollar bills.

So, my question is: does anyone, besides the conspiradroids, think that there was an owl god named Moloch?
Was this just made up to make Bohemian Grove look more evil? And who made this up? Alex Jones?

[Oliver]

Wiki.de says:


* ein Synonym für eine gnadenlose, alles verschlingende Gegebenheit
* ein mystisch-religiöser Begriff, siehe Moloch (Religion)
* eine Erzählung aus dem Jahre 1896 des russischen Schriftstellers Alexander Kuprin, siehe Der Moloch
* eine symbolische Gestalt, die in Allen Ginsbergs Gedicht Howl angeklagt wird
* in der Biologie eine Gattung der Agamen (Agamidae). Bekanntester Vertreter dieser Gattung ist der australische Dornteufel (Moloch horridus).
* die frühere deutsche Bezeichnung für die Marvel-Comicfigur Juggernaut, siehe Figuren aus dem Marvel-Universum
* eines der zwölf Zeichen des schwarzen Tierkreises – steht für ein menschenfressendes Ungeheuer
* das größte Schiff in der von Walter Moers erschaffenen Welt „Zamonien“



* a synonym for a merciless, all devouring condition
* a mystic religious term, see Moloch (religion)
* a narration from 1896 of Russian writer Alexander Kuprin, see the Moloch
* a symbolic shape, which is accused in Ginsbergs poem "Howl"
* in biology a kind of the Agamen (Agamidae). Most well-known representative of this kind is the Australian thorn devil (Moloch horridus).
* the earlier German name for the Marvel Comic character Juggernaut, see figures from the Marvel universe (CONSPIRACY! :D)
* one of the twelve indications of the black animal circle - stands for a human eating monster
* the largest ship in the world of walter Moer´s „Zamonien “

[PerryLogan]

I think Alex Jones just made it up. As usual, he has never cited any sources about the Moloch thing.

[Gravy]

So, my question is: does anyone, besides the conspiradroids, think that there was an owl god named Moloch?
Was this just made up to make Bohemian Grove look more evil? And who made this up? Alex Jones?I can only reveal that information to those who know the secret handshake or its ASCII equivalent.

[PerryLogan]

Computer enhancement of Bohemian Grove reveals it's not really an owl:
http://perrylogan.org/images/Loom.jpg

[Oliver]

http://impertinencias.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_impertinencias_archive.html

http://www.sargentmurals.bpl.org/site/images/13_Description_big.jpg

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0833621.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Molech.html
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Moloch
http://www.answers.com/topic/moloch
http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/aneidola.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/glossary/rpg/molech.htm
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/eagle/congress/reedea.html

[geni]

OK, I got into a conversation with some conspiracy guy at a party the other night. This person was in deep, too; he was talking about ancient Satanic secret societies that control history, etc. etc. He said he knew all about this from studying history and politics. When I asked him why I hadn't seen any of this in any history books, he said it was because I was looking at the "censored" history.

The problem with that is that in this case the censored history would have to include the bible as about the only mention of Moloch appears to be in the bible and there he appears to have been mixed up with other gods such as Ba,al


Anyways, we were discussing Moloch. I said it was a bull, he thinks it's an owl. When I put "Moloch" into the almighty Google (which is probably another part of the Conspiracy by now), I found a bunch of references to a half-bull, half-man deity. When I put in "moloch owl", I got a bunch of links to Bohemian Grove, and hidden owls on dollar bills.


So, my question is: does anyone, besides the conspiradroids, think that there was an owl god named Moloch?
Was this just made up to make Bohemian Grove look more evil? And who made this up? Alex Jones?

Never run across owls with gods outside goddes of wisdom.

[apathoid]

Was this just made up to make Bohemian Grove look more evil?

Why would an evil organization choose an owl as their mascot anyhow?
C'mon, owls are freakin' adorable!

[bob_kark]

* the earlier German name for the Marvel Comic character Juggernaut, see figures from the Marvel universe (CONSPIRACY! :D)

You mean Marvel Conspiraverse!

[Oliver]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molekh

Moloch or Molech or Molekh representing Hebrew מלך mlk is either the name of a god or the name of a particular kind of sacrifice associated historically with Phoenician and related cultures in north Africa and the Levant.

Nothing about an owl so far beside CT-sites...

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Why would an evil organization choose an owl as their mascot anyhow?
C'mon, owls are freakin' adorable!

Native Americans would not agree, to some of them the owl is a symbol of death and misfortune. While the rattle snake is Devinne.
It is cultural bias.

[sackett]

In India, the owl is (correctly) considered a stupid bird. You can call a dense person an unlu in Hindi -- if you're feeling lucky.

Somehow the above ties in with CTers. Feels right, I guess.

[PerryLogan]

http://www.emporis.com/files/transfer/5/2004/04/259164.jpg
Alex and his fans also believe the secret ruling elite are putting up buildings all over the world that look like owls. Sort of a hide-in-plain-sight thing. These guys honestly think they're geniuses.

[apathoid]

Alex and his fans also believe the secret ruling elite are putting up buildings all over the world that look like owls. Sort of a hide-in-plain-sight thing. These guys honestly think they're geniuses.

That hotel in Dubai kinda looks like an owl. Apart from that one - I cant think of any..

[jhunter1163]

Why would an evil organization choose an owl as their mascot anyhow?
C'mon, owls are freakin' adorable!

Well, I'm not sure I'd go as far as "adorable", but let's face it, they're not particularly scary. Certainly not the first bird that would jump to mind when thinking about evil scary things.

[sphenisc]

Well, I'm not sure I'd go as far as "adorable", but let's face it, they're not particularly scary. Certainly not the first bird that would jump to mind when thinking about evil scary things.

I asked my wife - she said "thrush".

[jhunter1163]

I asked my wife too, she said "vulture". I can agree with that. And thrushes too. I saw "The Birds" after all. The thrushes were the lookouts.

[Gravy]

Well, I'm not sure I'd go as far as "adorable", but let's face it, they're not particularly scary. Certainly not the first bird that would jump to mind when thinking about evil scary things.Budgie.

[Pardalis]

Budgie.

Come again?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_888645490c6f72033.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2352)

[uk_dave]

I asked my wife - she said "thrush".

LOL

:D

[Crazy Chainsaw]

LOL

:D

Wonder What Alfred Hitchcock Would say?

http://hitchcock.tv/mov/birds/birds.html

[uk_dave]

Wonder What Alfred Hitchcock Would say?

http://hitchcock.tv/mov/birds/birds.html

Probably "My dear girl, get some Canesten"
:cool:

[Foolmewunz]

I think Perry's right - this guys ultra hush hush tin foiler history books consist of googling and listening to the AJ Austin Rant Hour.

I mean, everyone knows it's the Masons!

:spjimlad:

[Checkmite]

I mean, everyone knows it's the Masons!


Venus was at its peak brilliance late night. You probably thought you saw something up in the sky other than Venus, but I assure you, it was Venus.

[DarkMagician]

http://www.emporis.com/files/transfer/5/2004/04/259164.jpg
Alex and his fans also believe the secret ruling elite are putting up buildings all over the world that look like owls. Sort of a hide-in-plain-sight thing. These guys honestly think they're geniuses.

Well, compared to the CT's that say this...

At that rate, most of us here would just be an oversized brain in a pan.

[Gravy]

Come again?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_888645490c6f72033.jpgIs that the hunchbudge of Notre Dame?

[R.Mackey]

[Major Briggs]The Owls are not what they seem.[/Major Briggs]

[MarkyX]

The only information you will get from Molech as an owl are CT sites sourcing...themselves or Alex Jones.

AJ has never shown proof that Molech is really indeed, an owl. Not to mention that the best time of Worship for Molech, according to Wikipedia, is on October. The grove is on July.

[Mangoose]

Molech ain't no owl. I have two scholarly studies on Molech in ancient Israel (GC Heider's THE CULT OF MOLEK: A REASSESSMENT and JA Day's MOLECH: A GOD OF SACRIFICE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT) and there is zero evidence of a figure similar to that of Behemian Grove. Nor has the audio of Alex Jones' surriptitious recording of the ceremony uncovered any mention of Molech.

The MYSTIFYING CODES OF THE HOLY QURAN (2004, p. 64) provides a reference to what may be the only pre-Alex Jones mention of Molech at Bohemian Grove

An article in a local community newspaper, Santa Rosa Sun (1993, July) reported on the Cult of Canaan and the legend of Moloch in place at Bohemian Grove."

I have found a copy of this original 1993 article online at http://sonic.net/~doretk/ArchiveARCHIVE/MARK%20EVANS/BohemianClub.html, and interestingly the comparison to Molech was only made by the author himself, as something he finds (disturbingly) similar to the Bohemian Grove ceremony. There is no actual "legend of Molech in place at Bohemian Grove" as claimed by later writers:

Should the Cremation of Care ceremony so quickly be dismissed, given its occult nature and historical antecedents? This ceremony resembles the ancient Canaanite worship of the idol, Molech. Like the Owl of Bohemia, the ancient Ammonite idol Molech was a towering larger-than-life edifice. Whereas the Owl is solid, the bronze Molech was hollow. Molech worship consisted of the ritualized sacrifice of the first-born infant son of every Ammonite newlywed family. Building a fire in the belly of the beast until the flames poured out of the mouth, the high priest mounted a scaffold and tossed the first-born male child into an aperture in Molech's chest, to the incantation of drums and droned liturgy of the priests of Molech.

Technically, Owl worship, as it is practiced at the Grove, is somewhat different from Molech worship. Peter Weiss, writing in Spy Magazine, November 1989, states, "Bohemian Club literature . . . boosts that the Cremation of Care ceremony derives from Druid rites, medieval Christian liturgy, the Book of Common Prayer, Shakespearean drama, and nineteenth-century American lodge rites." Is this the straight goods, or is it PR sugar coating of a darker sacrificial rite, terrifying even on a symbolic level?


The author thus notes what appears to him to be both similarities and differences between the cremation of care and the ancient Molech sacrifice ritual. He draws the parallel on the basis of his (popular) knowledge of Molech sacrifices; he does not report that the altar was called Molech or that there was a "legend of Molech" in place at Bohemian Grove. I just found a recent comment by the author that mentions that his words were misunderstood, although he is in sympathy with the general nefarious view of the goings-on at Bohemian Grove:

As the author of the original article [published simultaneously, in July of 1993, in the Santa Rosa Sun as "Inside Bohemian Grove," and in the North Coast Xpress as "Bohemian Bigwigs Perpetuate Canaanite Cult,"] that suggested an equation - of sorts - between the "Owl of Bohemia" and Molech, I'd like to put my own two cents into the pot.....I wish to say that when I wrote the article, I did not mean to make a literal equation of the "Owl of Bohemia" with Molech, but a figurative one, stressing the simularities, and announcing the continuity of a "cult of Sacrifice," on a Symbolic level. That many fundamentalist Christians have run with this thesis, and taken the equation literally, is an intersting phenomenon -- but I was more inclined to draw a simile that to starkly declare it was "Molech" his-self.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/05/359190.shtml (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/05/359190.shtml)


And so I suppose that is the genesis of the whole Owl = Molech meme that exists throughout Jones' prisonplanet.

[~enigma~]

And so I suppose that is the genesis of the whole Owl = Molech meme that exists throughout Jones' prisonplanet.
And I personally wouldn't doubt that. Why you ask? Well in Austin TX (along with Alex "the maniac" Jones there is a building, the Frost Bank to be exact, that AJ and his followers are quite afraid of and they call it Molech in architecture...

[aggle-rithm]

And I personally wouldn't doubt that. Why you ask? Well in Austin TX (along with Alex "the maniac" Jones there is a building, the Frost Bank to be exact, that AJ and his followers are quite afraid of and they call it Molech in architecture...

It probably goes back to when AJ was on the debating team at Austin Community College. They were 3-0, already having stomped the teams from DeVry, ITT-Tech, and Dixie Cosmetology.

Then came their fateful meeting with the Owls from Rice University.

The horror...the horror....

[aggle-rithm]

Here's another, reportedly designed by an architect from Rice:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/514648765b2810f6a.jpg

[mrbaracuda]

Ehehe,

dtaPlBY1ylA

the joy!

[~enigma~]

This is an interesting topic. Can a mod move this to the conspiracy forum so it doesn't get buried here?

[aggle-rithm]

Ehehe,

dtaPlBY1ylA

the joy!

"The biggest buildings are the bank buildings, towering over us!"

Right. There are several near my house. Drive-through banks. One story.

Maybe he means the tallest buildings in the world are banks, though there are some smaller bank buildings?

Well...no. Though there might be a few banks inside...?

Does that count?

Or maybe he means all bank buildings are shaped like owls?

No....

Maybe he just makes stuff up as he goes along.

[~enigma~]

On the topic of Molech...this is according to AJ, a symbol of the Illuminati. What is the origins of the Illuminati and what is the reason they are a focus of conspiracies?

[laodoggie]

On the topic of Molech...this is according to AJ, a symbol of the Illuminati. What is the origins of the Illuminati and what is the reason they are a focus of conspiracies?

This is what I found.

Briefly, the background of the Bavarian Illuminati puzzle is this. On May 1, 1776, in Bavaria, Dr. Adam Weishaupt, a professor of Canon Law at Ingolstadt University and a former Jesuit, formed a secret society called the Order of the Illuminati within the existing Masonic lodges of Germany. Since Masonry is itself a secret society, the Illuminati was a secret society within a secret society, a mystery inside a mystery, so to say. In 1785 the Illuminati were suppressed by the Bavarian government for allegedly plotting to overthrow all the kings in Europe and the Pope to boot. This much is generally agreed upon by all historians. 1 Everything else is a matter of heated, and sometimes fetid, controversy.

conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Illuminati.htm

[~enigma~]

This is what I found.

Briefly, the background of the Bavarian Illuminati puzzle is this. On May 1, 1776, in Bavaria, Dr. Adam Weishaupt, a professor of Canon Law at Ingolstadt University and a former Jesuit, formed a secret society called the Order of the Illuminati within the existing Masonic lodges of Germany. Since Masonry is itself a secret society, the Illuminati was a secret society within a secret society, a mystery inside a mystery, so to say. In 1785 the Illuminati were suppressed by the Bavarian government for allegedly plotting to overthrow all the kings in Europe and the Pope to boot. This much is generally agreed upon by all historians. 1 Everything else is a matter of heated, and sometimes fetid, controversy.

conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Illuminati.htmI get that far myself but where and how did the leap get made by David Icke that Adam Weishaupt was one and the same with George Washington? Besides, I don't quite understand the claim that the Masons and the Illuminati are secret societies since they are known. Then again they could be unkept secrets...

[Viper Daimao]

In India, the owl is (correctly) considered a stupid bird. You can call a dense person an unlu in Hindi -- if you're feeling lucky.

Somehow the above ties in with CTers. Feels right, I guess.
That's very interesting. Especially considering all the Indians at Rice University.

[Viper Daimao]

Here's another, reportedly designed by an architect from Rice:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/514648765b2810f6a.jpg

at orientation they told us it was an urban legend.

[GreNME]

Ehehe,

dtaPlBY1ylA

the joy!

Why bother with facts when fanciful fictions sound mysterious and spooky?

[~enigma~]

at orientation they told us it was an urban legend.That the building was designed by an architect from Rice?

BTW, isn't it interesting to note that Tricky Dick Gage is an architect that supposedly was schooled in the mysterious ways of the Illuminati yet AJ trusts him since it fits his stupid world view.

[dudalb]

Why bother with facts when fanciful fictions sound mysterious and spooky?

I honestly think that one reason Conspiracy Theorists continue to cling to their delusions despite being their being proved to be a bunch of codswallop is that the theories are so much more dramatic and colorful then reality.

[~enigma~]

I honestly think that one reason Conspiracy Theorists continue to cling to their delusions despite being their being proved to be a bunch of codswallop is that the theories are so much more dramatic and colorful then reality.
Don't mean to drag religion into this but what about gnosticism type beliefs and also an illusion that they (the conspiracist) knows better and can "save" mankind...sort of like christianity I guess :)

[alfaniner]

You did a search on Moloch and owl and didn't come up with Watchmen???

[~enigma~]

Anybody got any idea how the Icke idea of Weishaupt being Washington got started. I know in the Illuminatus trilogy they claimed Weishaupt murdered Washington and took his place but those were fiction...

[beeksc1]

Why would an evil organization choose an owl as their mascot anyhow?
C'mon, owls are freakin' adorable!

right...

Cannot owls see things in the darkness

Swim is entirely unsure what the owl represents; but has a general idea.

Why is Moloch show in the film classic Metropolis?, which illustrates "a futuristic urban dystopia and examines a common science fiction theme of the day: the social crisis between workers and owners in capitalism" ~Wiki

Swim is for libertarianism; but realizes that a monopolization of the markets can stray the masses into voluntary servitude

The worship of the owl has been going on for ages?

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0833621.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Molech.html
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Moloch
http://www.answers.com/topic/moloch
http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/aneidola.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/glossary/rpg/molech.htm
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/eagle/congress/reedea.html

[OldTigerCub]

This whole thread is just screaming for a cartoon! Horatius, where are you? :D

[Horatius]

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2008/07/11/the-untold-story.png

More to come. It's slow going with a cat on your keyboard....

[OldTigerCub]

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2008/07/11/the-untold-story.png

More to come. It's slow going with a cat on your keyboard....

:dl:

(p.s.- DANG! That was quick! :D )

[Horatius]

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2008/07/11/told.png

[TC329]

molech is alex jones disinfo.

they are worshipping isis.

[~enigma~]

molech is alex jones disinfo.

they are worshipping isis.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/132574876cb291cc12.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12966)

[Horatius]

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2008/07/11/told-part-ii.png


molech is alex jones disinfo.

they are worshipping isis.


Dammit, TC! It's hard enough making these comics with cats on my keyboard, without you providing a moving target!


ETA: Time to go to bed....more tomorrow!

[aggle-rithm]

at orientation they told us it was an urban legend.

They told me I'd have an active sex life. Didn't happen.

[GreNME]

Cannot owls see things in the darkness

As a matter of fact, no they cannot. In fact, no bird, mammal, or reptile can see things in darkness. They all require light in order to see. Of the levels of light needed to see, owls aren't even in the group who require the lowest levels of light in order to see.

Owls hunt by the moonlight, and are mostly nocturnal because their prey is nocturnal. Captive owls operate just fine on a daytime eating schedule (unlike some animals who mostly thrive on nocturnal schedules).

[dudalb]

You did a search on Moloch and owl and didn't come up with Watchmen???


Ya beat me to it. I was going to make a Night Owl reference....http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1884048779c622e577.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12977)

[dudalb]

I am amazed that Jones did not tie JK Rowling in with the Conspiracy, considering how Harry Potter and all his friends have pet Owls.

[Evilgiraffe]

To be fair, only Harry has an owl. The others have variously, a cat, a rat* and a toad.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in my box trying to figure out how not to be such a nerd. :boxedin:

*That is also a transformed wizard.

[Horatius]

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2008/07/11/told-part-iii.png

[Horatius]

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2008/07/11/told-part-iv.png

[~enigma~]

To be fair, only Harry has an owl.
Couldn't resist....

WHO

[Horatius]

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2008/07/11/told-part-v.png

[dudalb]

To be fair, only Harry has an owl. The others have variously, a cat, a rat* and a toad.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in my box trying to figure out how not to be such a nerd. :boxedin:

*That is also a transformed wizard.

I think that his friends at Hogswarts also have owls aside from their other pets for Mail purposes.

[Viper Daimao]

That the building was designed by an architect from Rice?

BTW, isn't it interesting to note that Tricky Dick Gage is an architect that supposedly was schooled in the mysterious ways of the Illuminati yet AJ trusts him since it fits his stupid world view.

yes, according to Wiki, it was designed by a frenchman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Philippe_Cret), who was educated at École des Beaux-Arts in Lyon then in Paris.

[Evilgiraffe]

I think that his friends at Hogswarts also have owls aside from their other pets for Mail purposes.

Dammit, you're right. The Weasleys had the world's most useless post owl.
Having said that, I think most of the owls mentioned in the book either belonged to the school or the ministry.

Hang on a minute... Government owls! It all becomes clear now.

[TjW]

And you'll note Harry and friends had to fight the existing government as well as Voldemort to create a New Wizarding Order.

[Spung]

FWIW, owls show up in medieval and Renaissance culture as a symbol of evil (see,for example, the many owls that make cameos in Bosch paintings). They got tied together with anti-Semitic sentiments a bit (in terms of 'people/things that prefer to mill about in the dark to do their business and hide from the light,' in a Gospel sense).

[albie]

The bronze bull god is Talos.

[Cuddles]

a secret society called the Order of the Illuminati within the existing Masonic lodges of Germany. Since Masonry is itself a secret society, the Illuminati was a secret society within a secret society, a mystery inside a mystery, so to say.

And a small group then formed an even secreter order within the Illuminati - a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in pastry, if you will - calling themselves the Majestic 12, they planned to overthrow the present New World Order with an Even Newer World Order by spreading a plague and... wait... hmm, you know, there may be a game in there somewhere.

I get that far myself but where and how did the leap get made by David Icke that Adam Weishaupt was one and the same with George Washington?

Presumably in the same way he decided that the Queen Mother was really a shape-shifting space lizard.

[Horatius]

The bronze bull god is Talos.



There's lots of bull gods about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_%28mythology%29). And lots of these bull gods are depicted in other forms.


Baal Moloch was conceived under the form of a calf or an ox or depicted as a man with the head of a bull. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molech#Ba.27al)


In the Cretan tales incorporated into Greek mythology, Tálos (Greek Τάλως; Latin Talus) or Tálon (Greek Τάλων) was a giant man of bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos)
...
Alternatively he could be figured as a mythic bull, as on the reverse of the Phaistos didrachm illustrated

[mrbaracuda]

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/owls :D

[Dave Nalle]

I didn't see anyone mention it on here, but the whole Moloch myth is a bunch of bull in the first place. It's an early example of deliberate political propaganda, put out by the Romans to discredit the Carthaginians during the Punic Wars. The whole bit with sacrificing babies was made up from whole cloth. So Jones is not only repeating a known and deliberate falsehood, but he's getting it wrong. Typical.

BTW, we've got a new article on Bohemian Grove on IdiotWars.com

Dave

[Dave Nalle]

I didn't see anyone mention it on here, but the whole Moloch myth is a bunch of bull in the first place. It's an early example of deliberate political propaganda, put out by the Romans to discredit the Carthaginians during the Punic Wars. The whole bit with sacrificing babies was made up from whole cloth. So Jones is not only repeating a known and deliberate falsehood, but he's getting it wrong. Typical.

BTW, we've got a new article on Bohemian Grove on IdiotWars.com

Dave