Ted Haggard caught using services of male prostitute

[a_unique_person]

A senior leader of the influential US evangelical movement and opponent of gay marriage resigned today following media revelations he paid for sex with a male prostitute.
Ted Haggard, president of the 30-million-strong National Association of Evangelicals and senior pastor at the New Life Church, said he was stepping aside in order to allow an investigation to proceed smoothly.
"I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity," Haggard said in a statement released by the New Life Church in Colorado Springs.
"I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."
The statement said Haggard felt he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations made on Denver talk radio this morning".




If he is straight, bi or gay, doesn't worry me. But these people have such a hangup over homosexuality, while ignoring the fact that if you have any group of 30 million, there just has to be gay members in it.

He denies it, but he quits?

[TheAntiLuddite]

If he is straight, bi or gay, doesn't worry me. But these people have such a hangup over homosexuality, while ignoring the fact that if you have any group of 30 million, there just has to be gay members in it.

He denies it, but he quits?

I remember this jack@ss from Dawkins' The Root of All Evil. Ah, Haggard. Smug little twit. Not quite as smug now, I gather. :)

[Questioninggeller]

The Rev. Ted Haggard resigned as president of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals on Thursday after being accused of paying a man for sex in monthly trysts over the past three years.

http://cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_306172921.html


Shocking, a creationist be deceitful. What's next they have to pay taxes too (http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/NEWS01/611020330/1006)?

[Foster Zygote]

I don't quite buy it yet, but if it is true there's a fantastic Indian restaurant downtown that makes this amazing spicy coconut cream sauce that would be perfect over the delicious, delicious irony.

Steven

[Dark Jaguar]

Sorry for the joke, but considering the thread title I had to do it.

What services did this male prostitute provide? Gardening?

[Achán hiNidráne]

After seeing how this @$$hole treated Richard Dawkins in "Root Of All Evil" (i.e. chasing Dawkins out of the parking lot of his megachurch), I REALLY want this story to be true.

[Kopji]

Wow. So some guy just calls into a talk radio show and says he's had sex with this guy for months.

Leader of 30 million evangelicals. Do we get outraged denial? Threats of legal action for slander? Standing on a podium with a crying wife and children harmed by this horrible but false accusation? Naw, we get this:

...an outspoken opponent of the drive for gay marriage -- also stepped down as senior pastor at his 14,000-member New Life Church pending an investigation by a church panel, saying he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations."

"I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity," Haggard said in a written statement. "I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."


Hey, maybe there is a god.

[bjb]

I can't wait to hear the voicemails. I bet they're hot.

[a_unique_person]

After seeing how this @$$hole treated Richard Dawkins in "Root Of All Evil" (i.e. chasing Dawkins out of the parking lot of his megachurch), I REALLY want this story to be true.

I hadn't heard of that documentary before. Shame the producers insisted on such a ridiculous title for it, I am very interested in seeing it.

[pipelineaudio]

pwnt haggard!!!

Looks good on you

[bjb]

I hadn't heard of that documentary before. Shame the producers insisted on such a ridiculous title for it, I am very interested in seeing it.

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ8_bIji7gQ

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4xIi-TwY-Y

This is the part where Dawkins talks to Ted Haggard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0

YouTube isn't just for conspiracy theorists!

[Questioninggeller]

Not just gay sex, but...

Mike Jones, 49, of Denver told The Associated Press he decided to go public with his allegations because of the political fight. Jones, who said he is gay, said he was upset when he discovered Haggard and the New Life Church had publicly opposed same-sex marriage.

...
Jones, whose allegations were first aired on KHOW-AM radio in Denver, claimed Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month over three years. Jones also said Haggard snorted methamphetamine before their sexual encounters to heighten his experience.


Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061103/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

[CFLarsen]

Come, now. It's not nice to gloat.

But then, I'm not nice. :D

Yeah, Ted Haggard is the Fundamentalist Christian schmuck from "Root of All Evil". Self-serving, smug, sanctimonious. He had the gall to demand that Dawkins should be openminded. After the interview, and Dawkins' crew had left the premises, Haggard and his people came out and demanded the film.

Maybe there is a god after all.... ;)

[negativ]

"Some day, every one of those c*&$-suckers are gonna get caught."

-- Frank Zappa to the audience, 20 Feb 1988 - the day Jimmy Swaggart's prostitutional dalliances came to light.

[Hyver]

wow, those voicemails are going to be golden :D

[Hawkeye]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA .... breathe..... HAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Can't practice what you preach there Pastor Ted?
Hey, don’t feel so bad. Lot’s of hominids display homosexuality, who can blame you?
Oh wait... apparently we’re not related to them, never mind!


This schadenfreude is making my day

[Sir Arthur Mortal Coyle]

I hear cries of "it was the devil that made me do it, er, once a month" :rolleyes:

I'm praying to the FSM that it's true

Here's the UK BBC news link to the story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6112338.stm

[Didaktylos]

Sorry for the joke, but considering the thread title I had to do it.

What services did this male prostitute provide? Gardening?

Working uphill, no doubt.

[a_unique_person]

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ8_bIji7gQ

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4xIi-TwY-Y

This is the part where Dawkins talks to Ted Haggard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0

YouTube isn't just for conspiracy theorists!

ta.

[CFLarsen]

Sorry for the joke, but considering the thread title I had to do it.

What services did this male prostitute provide? Gardening?

Furrow plowing.

[sphenisc]

I liked the line


Haggard, a 1978 graduate of Oral Roberts University ..


Can't think why.

[TragicMonkey]

Wow. This guy is utterly insane. A 49 year old male prostitute? Come on, you fundy moron! If you're going to pay for it, at least get a 19 year old.

[Hawk one]

Well, TM, I expect the 19-year olds in the business can afford to be choosy...

[TragicMonkey]

Well, TM, I expect the 19-year olds in the business can afford to be choosy...

Then they aren't in business, they're just screwing around.

[TheAntiLuddite]

Dear God,

I so much wanted to thank you for the outing of that tiresome little upstart, Ted Haggard. Ever since he was invited to the White House to advise Bush on the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (and I wasn't; I'm sure that was simply an oversight on your part), he's been absolutely insufferable, yammering on and on about his connections to your other favorite Christian. Surely thou art great and wise to have now blessed me to be the number one evangelical in this United States. I graciously accept your calling with all due respect and humility and with the assurance that I will not fail you, as so many of your other favorites have before.


In your Holy name,
Dr. James Dobson

[sphenisc]

Wow. This guy is utterly insane. A 49 year old male prostitute? Come on, you fundy moron! If you're going to pay for it, at least get a 19 year old.

Heh! Wadda you trying to do, put me out of business! :mad:

[Beerina]

He denies it, but he quits?

Reminds me of the nude photos of Dr. Laura when she was a college student by her subsequently also-to-be-famous boyfriend. Her lawyers claimed those were not photos of her, while simultaneously claiming she owned the copyright on them.

When asked about this puzzling contradiction, they just said that that's what lawyers do: attack the problem from all angles. :boggled: :eek: :jaw-dropp

[Beerina]

I remember this jack@ss from Dawkins' The Root of All Evil. Ah, Haggard. Smug little twit. Not quite as smug now, I gather. :)

OH THAT GUY! OH MY GOD! Hehehehe, I can see an addendum to the show in short order.

[Darth Rotor]

What services did this male prostitute provide? Gardening?
Plumbing. :p

DR

[ponderingturtle]

http://cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_306172921.html


Shocking, a creationist be deceitful. What's next they have to pay taxes too (http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/NEWS01/611020330/1006)?

Wow, being on trial for serious tax crimes is not enough to make him step down, but the slightest rumor that he has had gay sex does? How messed up are these people.

[Darth Rotor]

Wow, being on trial for serious tax crimes is not enough to make him step down, but the slightest rumor that he has had gay sex does? How messed up are these people.
Who are "these people" and why is a leader of a morals based organization hiring out a prostitute, in stark violation of his own moral organization's standards on three counts at least -- one, adultery; two, homosexual; three, fornication -- not a significant foul, which includes fraud in the secular sense? Heck, on the "bearing false witness" count, his fourth violation of the standards for his own organization's context, he's got more than three strikes to be called out on this one. :cool:

Tax evasion cases are a dime a dozen. :p

DR

[Orangutan]

You know, that make this image pretty funny.

http://starbulletin.com/2005/04/09/features/art1b.jpg

Muhahahahahah!

EDIT!
Opps I accidentaly created a new avatar from that pic! ;)

Double Edit!
I cant tak looking at that all day, too annoying I'm changing it back! But for those of you who woner what it looked like.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/3370454b6325b7288.gif

[ponderingturtle]

Who are "these people" and why is a leader of a morals based organization hiring out a prostitute, in stark violation of his own moral organizations standards on three counts at least -- one, adultery, two, homosexual, three, fornication -- not a significant foul, which includes fraud, in the secular sense? Heck, on the "bearing false witness" count, his fourth violation of the standards for his own organization's context, he's got more than three strikes to be called out on this one. :cool:

Tax evasion cases are a dime a dozen. :p

DR


The potential 200+ years for both him and his wife, would seem to make it a serious tax evasion case, and he has been indited for it

[Moochie]

I remember this jack@ss from Dawkins' The Root of All Evil. Ah, Haggard. Smug little twit. Not quite as smug now, I gather. :)

Heh heh heh (gloat :D )

Couldn't have happened to a finer guy -- the moron!

M.

[advancedatheist]

I wonder if the Phelpses have loaded up the bus yet to go picket Haggard's church.

[advancedatheist]

After seeing how this @$$hole treated Richard Dawkins in "Root Of All Evil" (i.e. chasing Dawkins out of the parking lot of his megachurch), I REALLY want this story to be true.

Dawkins has gotten some lucky breaks lately, hasn't he?

[Darth Rotor]

The potential 200+ years for both him and his wife, would seem to make it a serious tax evasion case, and he has been indited for it
Jim and Tammy Bakker, Part II, for fifty, Alex. :)

The Feds got Al Capone on a tax charge. He died from syphilis, IIRC from the history. Perhaps Ted will die from an STD while in jail for a tax violation.

Haggard's wife is bound to be pleased with his infidelity. :p If the tax charge is unsuccessful, I expect Ted will pay, and pay, for his stabbing her in the back. Hell hath no fury, and all that. Then again, maybe he knows that she has a pool boy on the side . . .

DR

[scotth]

I wonder if the Phelpses have loaded up the bus yet to go picket Haggard's church.

Nominated.

[Hawkeye]

Wow. This guy is utterly insane. A 49 year old male prostitute? Come on, you fundy moron! If you're going to pay for it, at least get a 19 year old.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on one second. A 49 year old having sex with someone 30 years younger than him? That just ain't right.
Homosexual adultery is one thing, but pseudo-pedophilia is crossing the line.
Pastor Ted has morals you know. :p

[scotth]

Jim and Tammy Bakker, Part II, for fifty, Alex. :)

The Feds got Al Capone on a tax charge. He died from syphilis, IIRC from the history. Perhaps Ted will die from an STD while in jail for a tax violation.

Haggard's wife is bound to be pleased with his infidelity. :p If the tax charge is unsuccessful, I expect Ted will pay, and pay, for his stabbing her in the back. Hell hath no fury, and all that. Then again, maybe he knows that she has a pool boy on the side . . .

DR

The tax charges are against Kent Hovind and his wife. And they were convicted yesterday.

[Steven Howard]

From the earlier AP story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061102/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations):

Carolyn Haggard, spokeswoman for the New Life Church, said a four-member church panel will investigate the allegations. She did not identify the board members.

"This is really routine when any sort of situation like this arises, so we're prepared," she said.


How often does this sort of situation arise, that they have a "routine" way to handle it?

[Fidelio]

A phone call to a radio talk show in the week before an over heated mid-term election is for some reason tickling my skeptometer.

(That said, please Skinny God let it be true)

[Quinn]

Not just gay sex, but...

Mike Jones...

Holy $#*! Gay sex with Penn & Teller's pianist (http://www.jonesjazz.com/linernotes/stretch_liner.htm)?!?!?

...49, of Denver...

Oh. Nevermind.

[Foster Zygote]

A phone call to a radio talk show in the week before an over heated mid-term election is for some reason tickling my skeptometer.

(That said, please Skinny God let it be true)

Me too. However, I can easily see how a homosexual man who knew Haggard's anti-gay campaign was colossally hypocritical would be inspired to expose him. As much as I dislike Haggard I'll need to see the evidence before I'll accept the charge against him.

Steven

[HarryKeogh]

So the accuser failed a lie detector test (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4597552)

but

The church official filling in for Haggard said there has been "some admission of guilt," (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html)but not to all of the allegations.

So we may get the daily double...another case showing lie detector tests are not reliable and a hypocrite preacher being exposed.

Sweet.

[flume]

THIS IS EXCELLENT.
Wow, this makes my day. This is the guy that Bush supposedly talks to, right?

[Charlie Monoxide]

Dawkins has gotten some lucky breaks lately, hasn't he?He just got "lucky" on the latest South Park epsiode about evolutionary theory.

Charlie (although it was with Mrs Garrison) Monoxide

[ponderingturtle]

A phone call to a radio talk show in the week before an over heated mid-term election is for some reason tickling my skeptometer.

(That said, please Skinny God let it be true)

Hey at least the guy makeing the claim is being honnest that it is politicaly motivated.

[Fidelio]

Hey at least the guy makeing the claim is being honnest that it is politicaly motivated.

True, 'twould be nice to have some concrete, ahem... evidence though.

Note to self: When consorting with prostitutes take the condoms with you.

[CFLarsen]

THIS IS EXCELLENT.
Wow, this makes my day. This is the guy that Bush supposedly talks to, right?

But what about???? :eek:

[ponderingturtle]

True, 'twould be nice to have some concrete, ahem... evidence though.


I agree that it would be nice to have evidence and that it is not really enough to say in any way what happened.

I did note that in denying it he made a strong point to say that he never had sex with a male prostitute in Denver.

Now me I would just make a statement about not visiting any prostitute, or any male prostitutes, but having to specify the city does make one think.

[bjb]

The Denver Post website has some very good articles on this subject like this one (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4588998). Here's a link to a video from a local news station who gained access to the voicemails and had them analyzed by a voice expert:

http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/1162531232861-11-02-06-haggard-vm-10p.wmv&sp=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/ads/sales/pre-stream/intelligentoffice8-06a.wmv

It seems like good evidence to me.

[Katana]

The Denver Post website has some very good articles on this subject like this one (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4588998). Here's a link to a video from a local news station who gained access to the voicemails and had them analyzed by a voice expert:

http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/1162531232861-11-02-06-haggard-vm-10p.wmv&sp=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/ads/sales/pre-stream/intelligentoffice8-06a.wmv

It seems like good evidence to me.

Very interesting.

[phildonnia]

Is the picture on Wikipedia really him? It looks so awful, I wouldn't rule out vandalism.

[Foster Zygote]

The Denver Post website has some very good articles on this subject like this one (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4588998). Here's a link to a video from a local news station who gained access to the voicemails and had them analyzed by a voice expert:

http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/1162531232861-11-02-06-haggard-vm-10p.wmv&sp=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/ads/sales/pre-stream/intelligentoffice8-06a.wmv

It seems like good evidence to me.

Thanks, all I'd seen so far was the same AP story at different sites.

Steven

[The Kilted Yaksman]

Latest from CNN.com:
The Rev. Ted Haggard admits he purchased methamphetamine from Mike Jones, the man who accuses Haggard of paying him for sex, but the pastor says he threw away the drugs.

[zizzybaluba]

CNN's now saying Haggard admits buying meth from the prostitute, but he "threw the drugs away". :rolleyes:

ETA. The Yaksman is quicker on the draw than I...

[Katana]

I also thought I heard him say that he called Jones, not for sex, but for a massage. Did I imagine that?

ETA: Yep. They just said it again.

Why would you go to a gay male prostitute if all you wanted was a massage?

Then again, I suppose that depends on which body part's tension needs to be relieved.

[The Mutha]

But I didn't inhale, man! :D

[SPQR]

I liked the line

Haggard, a 1978 graduate of Oral Roberts University ..



Can't think why.

I wonder how much an "Oral Roberts" goes for these days. :D

[ponderingturtle]

I wonder how much an "Oral Roberts" goes for these days. :D

And should we express it in dollars or grams of crystal meth?

[Jekyll]

I also thought I heard him say that he called Jones, not for sex, but for a massage. Did I imagine that?

ETA: Yep. They just said it again.

Why would you go to a gay male prostitute if all you wanted was a massage?

Then again, I suppose that depends on which body part's tension needs to be relieved.

This cracks me up, I can't believe that anyone in a fundy church's damage control statement is, "I went to a gay prostitute for a massage and meth."

[Cello Man]

This cracks me up, I can't believe that anyone in a fundy church's damage control statement is, "I went to a gay prostitute for a massage and meth."

These folks also believe in immaculate conception and resurrection. You can get them to believe anything.

[elaine]

Given the timing of the news, I was highly skeptical as well. But now? Threw away the meth and called about a massage? Puhleesseee....Give me a break!

Unfortunately, the majority of his flock won't believe the accusations, even if the Right Rev. fesses up.

[Orangutan]

sweet sweet Schadenfreude. :)

[Jon.]

Dear God,

I so much wanted to thank you for the outing of that tiresome little upstart, Ted Haggard. Ever since he was invited to the White House to advise Bush on the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (and I wasn't; I'm sure that was simply an oversight on your part), he's been absolutely insufferable, yammering on and on about his connections to your other favorite Christian. Surely thou art great and wise to have now blessed me to be the number one evangelical in this United States. I graciously accept your calling with all due respect and humility and with the assurance that I will not fail you, as so many of your other favorites have before.


In your Holy name,
Dr. James Dobson

P.S. You're still keeping my little secret between us (and the goat), right?

[slingblade]

It's not that they're hypocrites. Even the best intentioned make mistakes, sometimes big mistakes.

It's that they make you feel so stinking guilty for being equally human and making mistakes, especially little mistakes, that you despise yourself and your weaknesses.

Gloating? No. I'm laughing my a@@ off.

[headscratcher4]

He says he was tempted and bought the Meth...on CNN...which begs the question what was tempting about the Meth? The smile of tweakers? Their rich, fabulous life styles? The exploding of meth labs? The way that meth enhances every community where it is used?

This creep is a liar...last night he didn't know the gay prostitute or ever use drugs...now he knows him, bought drugs from him...but didn't use. Hmmmm.

[Cello Man]

I think I read this sentiment on another board, but it bears repeating...

How messed up in the head do you have to be to admit to using meth but not being gay?

[Katana]

I think I read this sentiment on another board, but it bears repeating...

How messed up in the head do you have to be to admit to using meth but not being gay?

When you're pandering to Christian fundamentalists, drug use is probably more likely to be forgiven. Having said that, he denied using meth. He only admitted to buying it.

[Steven Howard]

When you're pandering to Christian fundamentalists, drug use is probably more likely to be forgiven. Having said that, he denied using meth. He only admitted to buying it.

Right. See, he's actually performing a vital service -- by buying and destroying drugs, he keeps them out of the hands of impressionable young people. Buying the drugs from Jones was also a public service, since while Jones was selling drugs to Haggard, he wasn't practicing his vile abominations with other men.

He should get an award.

[elaine]

Right. See, he's actually performing a vital service -- by buying and destroying drugs, he keeps them out of the hands of impressionable young people. Buying the drugs from Jones was also a public service, since while Jones was selling drugs to Haggard, he wasn't practicing his vile abominations with other men.

He should get an award.

Wow. I thought I was good at justifying anything. I tip my hat to you.

[Katana]

Right. See, he's actually performing a vital service -- by buying and destroying drugs, he keeps them out of the hands of impressionable young people. Buying the drugs from Jones was also a public service, since while Jones was selling drugs to Haggard, he wasn't practicing his vile abominations with other men.

He should get an award.

:bs:

Are you a politician?

Nicely done.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

It's not that they're hypocrites. Even the best intentioned make mistakes, sometimes big mistakes.

It's that they make you feel so stinking guilty for being equally human and making mistakes, especially little mistakes, that you despise yourself and your weaknesses.

Gloating? No. I'm laughing my a@@ off.

They don't make me feel guilty :rolleyes:

[a_unique_person]

He says he was tempted and bought the Meth...on CNN...which begs the question what was tempting about the Meth? The smile of tweakers? Their rich, fabulous life styles? The exploding of meth labs? The way that meth enhances every community where it is used?

This creep is a liar...last night he didn't know the gay prostitute or ever use drugs...now he knows him, bought drugs from him...but didn't use. Hmmmm.

That pretty well seals it. He admits he bought the meth, and that he saw the guy. It's not just some anonymous caller to a radio station anymore.

[Dave1001]

I'm still waiting for America to accept the obvious, that Karl Rove is gay.

Don't feign suprise years after he's dead, America. It doesn't get more obvious than with him.

[RebeccaBradley]

I found an interesting link to a hardline Xian website that was already not so enamoured of Pastor Ted, partly for doctrinal reasons, and partly because they'd rumbled him as a greedy control freak and a "false prophet" some time back. The most interesting section was the 'Interview' page, where church members told some little tales - interesting, because it sounds like Pastor Ted's treatment of Richard Dawkins was entirely in character. That is, the sudden transition from smiley to snarly, and the later puzzling contretemps in the parking lot. Anyway, here's the link:
http://www.in-sheeps-clothing.org/home.html
Cheers, everyone. My, I'm having SUCH a nice day.

[slingblade]

They don't make me feel guilty :rolleyes:

Then I guess you aren't a fundie. I was. Then I found my brain.
I love it when these lying bassturds slip.

[Foster Zygote]

I'm reasonably sure he did it now. Not absolutely sure, but pretty damn sure. To go from "I never met the man" to "I only went to the gay prostitute for a massage and I bought the drugs but threw them away" in one day is the weaseling gyration of a guilty* man.

* By "guilty" I don't mean that I think what he did was a crime. If he wants to have sex with another man that's fine, except for the part where he breaks a promise to his wife. But that's a personal matter between him and his family. I do however see him as "guilty" of being a two-faced hypocrite. To call homosexuals "sinners" and actively campaign to suppress their rights while all the time engaging in a hidden homosexual relationship makes him a contemptible jerk in my view.

Steven

[Renfield]

I wonder if he prayed before his gay sex and meth orgy.

Evangelics seem to pray over everything. Did he get down on his knees and say, lord, let this be some great gay sex, and let my orgasms be explosive ones, and may this meth be some seriously good **** that truly blows our minds.
Amen.

[Kopji]

Some of the news stories had Jones described as a caller to the radio show, but one video clip I saw had him at the microphone in the studio. So I'm pretty sure he was a guest personality rather than a random caller. Not quite as drop dead funny as a call in, but still probably quite a surprise for Haggard while brushing his teeth.

[Ducky]

Mr Haggard, when discussing your need for meth and prostitutes with your Church's investigative council, try to remember:

"You'll find yourself right on somethings, wrong on others, but please don't be arrogant."

[Glen.Nogami]

Now he's insisting that it was only for methamphetamines and a massage.

NO MEANS NO, mister male prostitute. If the guy only wants a backrub, he ONLY WANTS A BACKRUB! XD

EDIT: Oh, he threw the drugs away. Guess he just wanted the massage. Maybe it was a package deal?

"Well, I thought he was a massage therapist. It did seem a bit expensive, but hey. Then I found the meth in my body cavities. I was tricked!"

[aargh57]

I'm glad any time one of these charlatans go down but feel bad for his kids. First, they've got a despicable, bigoted father. Then he gets caught doing all this stuff. I predict some rough days ahead in whatever fundi school these kids go to.

I'd like to think that this would change the way people think about high profile evangelical preachers but anyone who remembers Swaggart in tears saying "I have sinned against you, my lord" will know better. Even if this guy goes down I doubt his flock will look at the next guy any more critically.

[WildCat]

Why couldn't it be Fred Phelps?

[Ducky]

Why couldn't it be Fred Phelps?

Fred prefers to shotgun dogs in front of their 6 year old owners.

[Foster Zygote]

I'm glad any time one of these charlatans go down but feel bad for his kids. First, they've got a despicable, bigoted father. Then he gets caught doing all this stuff. I predict some rough days ahead in whatever fundi school these kids go to.

I'd like to think that this would change the way people think about high profile evangelical preachers but anyone who remembers Swaggart in tears saying "I have sinned against you, my lord" will know better. Even if this guy goes down I doubt his flock will look at the next guy any more critically.

Even after James Randi exposed Peter Popoff as a fraud quite a few of his more deluded followers still refused to accept that he was a fake and a cheat. I'd be surprised if some of them aren't still on his mailing list to this day.

Steven

[articulett]

Mr Haggard, when discussing your need for meth and prostitutes with your Church's investigative council, try to remember:

"You'll find yourself right on somethings, wrong on others, but please don't be arrogant."

Indeed!

Can we call "his people" animals now?

Oh, and Ted, "one day your grandchildren might listen to a tape of you saying 'homosexuality is a choice' and then laugh at you"--(may clips of your phone messages haunt you for the eternity you believe in.)

[Zep]

Wow, being on trial for serious tax crimes is not enough to make him step down, but the slightest rumor that he has had gay sex does? How messed up are these people.It's because the money is more important than the sex. Of course, family, morals and even their faith take a far back seat to all that.

[Kopji]

“Hi Mike, this is Art,”...“Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply.”


Must have been asking about those little Jesus bobbleheads for the dash.

[TriangleMan]

I first heard about this an hour ago on BBC - really made my day! I fell out of my chair when Haggard said be bought the meth but then threw it away. I figure that I guess he knew there was too much evidence to deny buying the drugs, but realized there was no video footage of him taking the meth or having sex, so he's denying everything that there isn't direct evidence for.

Threw the meth away. Into his body no doubt. :rolleyes:

[icantlogoff]

so he's denying everything that there isn't direct evidence for.

Threw the meth away. Into his body no doubt. :rolleyes:

Funny how he (Haggard) never applies the same logic to his belief

[senorpogo]

One of my first thoughts, Seinfeld...

Ted Haggard: A man gave me...
Jerry: Yes, a man gave you...?
Ted: A man gave me... a massage.
Jerry: So?
Ted: So he... had his hands and, uh, he was...
Jerry: He was what?!
Ted: He was... touching and rubbing.
Jerry: That's a massage.
Ted: And then I took my pants off.
Jerry: You took your pants off?
Ted: For my hamstring.
Jerry: Oh.
Ted: He got about two inches from... there.
Jerry: Really?
Ted: I think it moved.
Jerry: Moved?
Ted: It may have moved, I don't know.
Jerry: I'm sure it didn't move.
Ted: It moved! It was imperceptible but I felt it.
Jerry: Maybe it just wanted to change positions? You know, shift to the other side.
Ted: No, no. It wasn't a shift, I've shifted, this was a move.
Jerry: Okay, so what if it moved?
Ted: That's the sign! The test; if a man makes it move.
Jerry: That's not the test. Contact is the test, if it moves as a result of
contact.
Ted: You think it's contact? It has to be touched?
Jerry: That's what a gym teacher once told me.

[Meadmaker]

Given the timing of the news, I was highly skeptical as well. But now? Threw away the meth and called about a massage? Puhleesseee....Give me a break!


Amen! (Pun intended.)

I guess if you can convince lots of people to send you money on such a regular basis, you think you can convince them to believe anything. He wants people to believe that he, a fifty year old man, was tempted to take methamphetamines despite never having used drugs, so he contacted a hotel concierge, who put him in contact with the guy. This guy sold him the meth, but the reverend threw it away. Then, later, the meth-dealer called in and claimed that they had had sex, repeatedly, for months.

If you can convince people of that, you could convince them that you, personally, knew someone who rose from the dead.:eye-poppi

[Dave1001]

Why couldn't it be Fred Phelps?

stay tuned. No straight guy would care that much about gay sex.

[elaine]

I agree, Dave.

[articulett]

It's because the money is more important than the sex. Of course, family, morals and even their faith take a far back seat to all that.

I always wonder what all these rich Christian make of the biblical passage about it being easier for a camel to fit through a needle then it is for a rich guy to get into heaven. I also wonder if they believe in hell--Ted doesn't really believe in hell, does he? And pedophiliac priests mustn't either. The audaciousness of their hypocrisy is stellar given their ready judgment of others for far less egregious errors.

Ann Coulter giggles at the thought of Dawkins burning in hell forever. Do these guys even hear themselves?! I am hardly an "all loving" overlord nor am I a person of faith--but I would never create a life if there was the possibility that life could suffer for eternity nor can I imagine giggling at the idea of anyone one else suffering such a fate for a finite "sin".

I confess I do enjoy seeing hubris fall on it's goofy duck-lipped face. :)

[elaine]

Mr Haggard, when discussing your need for meth and prostitutes with your Church's investigative council, try to remember:

"You'll find yourself right on somethings, wrong on others, but please don't be arrogant."

I sprayed my coffee.

[Dave1001]

I'm still waiting for America to accept the obvious, that Karl Rove is gay.

Don't feign suprise years after he's dead, America. It doesn't get more obvious than with him.

Apparently he has an ex-wife, a wife, and a son. Reality sucks.:rolleyes:

[Silly Green Monkey]

Orientation has little to do with marriage. Or even sex, for that matter.

[RandFan]

BTW, least we not forget this is not at all new, we've been here before many times.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:qhl3NQwnhYpXgM:http://www.paintitblack.com/swaggart.jpg

"I have sinned against you, my Lord, and I would ask that your precious blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgetfulness, never to be remembered against me."

And I would add "and the tithes of the faithful wash into my bank account again".

[varwoche]

Holy cow, the pathetic bastard seems to have been confessing in his own pathetic way.

From Jesus Camp: youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rSjrBhUIA)

[articulett]

Orientation has little to do with marriage. Or even sex, for that matter.

Righteo--Haggard's married and getting...er...massages from male prostitutes. (I just love how scared he looks!)--I wish I could see more of his reaction as the news hit him.

I agree on Karl Rove. He was the guy who gave clearance to the male escort, Jeff Gannon right. Now if only more male prostitutes will share their client lists..

I'm all for homosexuality--but I'm very much against hypocrisy.

[bjb]

It looks like his church has made its decision about Ted Haggard:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061104/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

"Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct," the New Life Church's Overseer Board said in a statement.

[Dave1001]

Righteo--Haggard's married and getting...er...massages from male prostitutes. (I just love how scared he looks!)--I wish I could see more of his reaction as the news hit him.

I agree on Karl Rove. He was the guy who gave clearance to the male escort, Jeff Gannon right. Now if only more male prostitutes will share their client lists..

I'm all for homosexuality--but I'm very much against hypocrisy.

I'm all for hypocrisy too. Just not for arbitrary unequal treatment of people over things that make a tangible difference of their life experience.

[Temporal Renegade]

Just a question:

Buying drugs is supposed to be illegal; meth is a drug.
Haggard (on tape, no less) admits to buying meth.
Therefore, he's broken the law.

But, will he be arrested for it?

[pgwenthold]

I don't know much about Haggard and this mega-church thing. So can anyone tell me, did he actually have a role in creating it? Or is it just the case that he grew to be the leader of it, previously developed?

I just wonder, if it is the former, what the members of the church think about being part of a church founded by such a person. If it is the latter, that question is likely moot.

[kmortis]

It looks like his church has made its decision about Ted Haggard:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061104/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

"Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct," the New Life Church's Overseer Board said in a statement.

:jaw-dropp
HOLY ED FOLKS!!!! his church sent him up the river. How much worse is this case, really? We can't be hearing everything. I mean, c'mon, there's too many cases like this where the church stood behind their man.

I first heard about this on NPR in the car. I was giggling so hard I damn near drove off the road.

[imagineNoReligion]

I don't know much about Haggard and this mega-church thing. So can anyone tell me, did he actually have a role in creating it? Or is it just the case that he grew to be the leader of it, previously developed?

I just wonder, if it is the former, what the members of the church think about being part of a church founded by such a person. If it is the latter, that question is likely moot.

According to wikipedia, he founded the church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard

[aargh57]

I don't know much about Haggard and this mega-church thing. So can anyone tell me, did he actually have a role in creating it? Or is it just the case that he grew to be the leader of it, previously developed?

I just wonder, if it is the former, what the members of the church think about being part of a church founded by such a person. If it is the latter, that question is likely moot.

I predict the vast majority won't leave the church. I remember during the Swaggart/Baker (and other) scandals in the 80's. It made headlines for a while but they either kept or regained their flocks shortly after. In fact, in about 10 years they were going stronger than ever and now they've got more power than ever. The only difference here is the guy is accused of homosexuality. Now, if he banged dozens of female prostitutes or took oodles of money he could do the "I've sinned against thee, Oh Lord" bit and in time all would be forgiven. Most loving fundies have yet to find a place in their hearts for a homosexual so I don't think he'll be able to regain his ministry. Never fear, another will fill his shoes shortly.

[a_unique_person]

:jaw-dropp
HOLY ED FOLKS!!!! his church sent him up the river. How much worse is this case, really? We can't be hearing everything. I mean, c'mon, there's too many cases like this where the church stood behind their man.

I first heard about this on NPR in the car. I was giggling so hard I damn near drove off the road.

It doesn't get any worse than being gay, apparently. As has been pointed out, Jim Baker was forgiven for doing straight sex, homosexual is unforgivable.

[Canadian Malcontent]

" By their fruits ye shall know them."

[Canadian Malcontent]

Just a question:

Buying drugs is supposed to be illegal; meth is a drug.
Haggard (on tape, no less) admits to buying meth.
Therefore, he's broken the law.

But, will he be arrested for it?


the police need evidence ie. the drugs, to get a conviction

CM

[RandFan]

It doesn't get any worse than being gay, apparently. As has been pointed out, Jim Baker was forgiven for doing straight sex, homosexual is unforgivable. Jim Baker received the same response as Haggard. He lost his position in the church. Forgiveness came some time later. Haggard most certainly can be forgiven and it is damn likely that he will be back like Peter Popov, Swaggart and many others.

[Liken]

" By their fruits ye shall know them."

I nominate this for the most for the "unintentionally[?] ironic play on words" award of the year. Profound. I'm still laughing. Thanks Canadian.

Liken

[Liken]

the police need evidence ie. the drugs, to get a conviction

Last I checked confessions count as evidence. Can you imagine if they didn't?: "Yes officer I killed all of those people all but you'll NEVER find the bodies OR the murder weapon....MUWA HA HA HA! NO EVIDENCE, now unshackle these chains!"

Still, I doubt Ted will do any time in jail...not that he'd mind, right? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Liken

[boloboffin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMAInacGOEo

I don't know how to embed the YouTube video here, but this is a lengthy interview with Haggard the evening before Jones spoke. Evidently, there was a lot of pre-interview publicity and messaging going on.

Remember, Haggard is LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH in this interview.

[ponderingturtle]

Righteo--Haggard's married and getting...er...massages from male prostitutes. (I just love how scared he looks!)--I wish I could see more of his reaction as the news hit him.

I agree on Karl Rove. He was the guy who gave clearance to the male escort, Jeff Gannon right. Now if only more male prostitutes will share their client lists..

I'm all for homosexuality--but I'm very much against hypocrisy.

I don't think Rove is a homosexual, but his father was and he had a good relationship with him anyway, well until he died and he wanted to keep the gay dad hidden from media and so didn't have much of a funeral

[pgwenthold]

According to wikipedia, he founded the church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard

So I really want to know, how do the members of this church feel about they fact that they were led along by this guy?

This wasn't a church built by a "man of god" for the "service of the Lord" or any such things. It was built to make this guy rich. Will the members even realize the extent to which they have been used?

This is Eric Cartman "starting" a church to get rich.

[Dave1001]

The tragic thing is, this guy could have had a pretty good career in entertainment. He can draw a crowd, sustain an audience, etc. He could have been a great country and western music promoter, or probably run a great amusement park, or something like that.

[kmortis]

One of the thigs that the NPR report brought out is that a common theme in his sermons was that we all have our "temptations", and we nned to face them.


I do hope that he goes more the way of Jimmy Bakker. Bakker was thrown in prison, divorced, lost his coushy job and became the butt of many comedians jokes (both secular and Christian). He's never made it back to his former glory. And, if wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker) is to be believed, probably never will
In I Was Wrong, he reveals that the first time he read the Bible all the way through was in prison, and that it made him realize he had taken certain passages out of context--passages which he had used as "proof texts" to back up his prosperity theology teachings.
He was a "minister" for HOW long and he never read the Bible all the way through? I mean, I know we oft say things like that about fundies, but to have one (reportedly) come out and SAY it...

[advancedatheist]

The tragic thing is, this guy could have had a pretty good career in entertainment. He can draw a crowd, sustain an audience, etc. He could have been a great country and western music promoter, or probably run a great amusement park, or something like that.

What, you mean like in Branson, Missouri?

[advancedatheist]

I'd like to think that this would change the way people think about high profile evangelical preachers but anyone who remembers Swaggart in tears saying "I have sinned against you, my lord" will know better.

Swaggart's scandal happened in 1988, and we have a whole generation of young adults who've grown up since then with no memory of it.

Even recent evangelical scandals can fall down the Memory Hole quickly. Who remembers the gay sexual harassment allegation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Crouch#Alleged_sexual_harassment) made against Trinity Broadcasting Network's Paul Crouch in 2004?

[andyandy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMAInacGOEo

I don't know how to embed the YouTube video here, but this is a lengthy interview with Haggard the evening before Jones spoke. Evidently, there was a lot of pre-interview publicity and messaging going on.

Remember, Haggard is LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH in this interview.

man, he's a pretty fine liar....he must have had a lot of practise......

now he's admitted "sexual immorality" ..............

Disgraced former US evangelist leader Reverend Ted Haggard has confessed to his followers that he was guilty of "sexual immorality".
"I am a deceiver and a liar," Mr Haggard said in a letter - a day after his New Life Church fired him for what it called "sexually immoral conduct".

A vocal opponent of gay marriage, he earlier admitted buying drugs and having a massage from a gay masseur.

But he denied using the methamphetamine or having sex with the man.

"I am so sorry for the circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment for all of you," Mr Haggard said in the letter that was read out to New Life Church followers in Colorado Springs.

"There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark and I've been warring against it my entire adult life," the letter said. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6119226.stm

[Dave1001]

man, he's a pretty fine liar....he must have had a lot of practise......

now he's admitted "sexual immorality" ..............

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6119226.stm

Eh, there's nothing that repulsive and dark about liking to snort meth and then having sex with a dude. Even if you're married and have kids. It's just sex and drugs.

[andyandy]

Eh, there's nothing that repulsive and dark about liking to snort meth and then having sex with a dude. Even if you're married and have kids. It's just sex and drugs.

i don't think evangelicals are too big on gay sex and methamphetamine use.....

[MLynn]

Ted is a b*st*rd - I feel pity for his wife, Gayle, although she must have known he was doing something. I hope she doesn't get AIDS or some other disease because of her crappy husband. She will probably be a sap and stay with him. She actually now has a scriptural reason to divorce him. That is if she needs a reason...

[imagineNoReligion]

Ted is a b*st*rd - I feel pity for his wife, Gayle, although she must have known he was doing something. I hope she doesn't get AIDS or some other disease because of her crappy husband. She will probably be a sap and stay with him. She actually now has a scriptural reason to divorce him. That is if she needs a reason...

In a letter to the church, she has stated that she is standing by him. http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326185&secid=1

She also states that Ted is "the visible and public evidence that every man (woman and child) needs a Savior".

It's a miracle, just the sign I was looking for, I'm off to church.

[Dave1001]

i don't think evangelicals are too big on gay sex and methamphetamine use.....

I think it's an open question on the degree to which evangelicalism and methamphetamine use correlate.

[andyandy]

I think it's an open question on the degree to which evangelicalism and methamphetamine use correlate.

Do you think methamphetamine use is

A. Greater than national average amongst evangelicals

B. At average levels amongst evangelicals

C. Lower than average amongst evangelicals

.....although i doubt any studies on the two have been done :)

[Roadtoad]

Where to begin with any of this...?

I know too many guys like this. I'm willing to bet that behind all the love-speak he used on Sunday, his church was probably riddled with cliques, and the people who most desperately needed serious help in his community were turned away at the door. This was likely a McChurch, (Come to the Golden Crosses!), where more often than not, you probably got a slap-dash dose of lukewarm Christianity, with an extra shot of "special sauce" once a month.

Add in the warmed over homophobia and hate, and no, I'm not surprised he tripped himself up. And like MLynn said, (classy chassis that she is), I really feel sorry for his wife and family. They don't deserve what they're about to go through.

He'd have done far better if he'd just stood at the pulpit and read from the Bible itself, and left interpretation for his church's members. Jerk.

[hammegk]

He'd have done far better if he'd just stood at the pulpit and read from the Bible itself, and left interpretation for his church's members. Jerk.
Nah, he's not getting his part of the tithe on that route ... :D

[TheAntiLuddite]

In a letter to the church, she has stated that she is standing by him. http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326185&secid=1


From the letter:

"I love you all so much, especially you young women - you were my delight."

:D

[Kopji]

If I could not laugh at the guy I'd just be angry about it.

One of my son's friends was visiting last week. She is 14 and I happen to know was a victim of sexual abuse a few years ago. (We tend to know some of the background of many of the kids who visit.)

Anyway, she was in the kitchen and just started in on telling me a story of when her mother was sexually abused by someone they had taken in as a guest, and some of her feelings about it.

I interrupted her a little way into the story and gently reminded her that maybe her mom might want to keep things like that private, or not have them widely known.

Her 14 year old response to me was that the events with her mom had bothered her, and she had permission to always speak openly about these things: it was best to openly speak rather than hold them in if they were eating at her.

I measure Haggard to this 14 year old girl - and he comes up wanting in character and as a leader. His church can fawn over him all they want, he can ask forgiveness. But he will never have the emotional maturity and character of this little girl.

I despise him. He should be serving people like this girl, there are so many out there. Instead he pretends to be like them, some kind of victim of himself. But he is not; he is only a pathetic illusion.

[RandFan]

Ted Haggard, meet Frank Garvin.

[ponderingturtle]

Do you think methamphetamine use is

A. Greater than national average amongst evangelicals

B. At average levels amongst evangelicals

C. Lower than average amongst evangelicals

.....although i doubt any studies on the two have been done :)

And remember you would need to compare the evangelicals to individuals of similar location, economic status and race.

[scotth]

I think this bit of commentary/editoral pretty much covers it. Good stuff.

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=3874

[TheAntiLuddite]

Do you think methamphetamine use is

A. Greater than national average amongst evangelicals


I had to laugh when the amphetamine icing was added to the homosexual prostitute cake, but it makes sense, really. There's an article in the latest issue of Skeptic that includes data that suggests that exceptionally religious societies are also more dysfunctional than comparable societies that are less religious, and here's one possible reason. Maintaining belief in anything for which you have no evidence takes a lot of work. Most people in this state (if they aren't schizophrenic or have some other mental disorder) are plagued by doubts that what they believe isn't true (again, because they have no evidence). This constant mental struggle to maintain "faith" (especially fundamentalist faith, where apostates go to the Pit) produces a lot of stress in some people, and when people are overly-stressed they seek out a means to alleviate it. A religious person may engage in such activities as constant prayer, attending church four times a week, picketing abortion clinics, purging of heretics, self-flagellation, and, finally, partaking in worship of the Unholy Triune (alcohol, sex, drugs). Throw the additional stress of managing a large church and a 300 million member organization on top of the faith stack, and something's got to give. Not that I'm making excuses for Haggard.

Besides, if you've ever witnessed people in the throes of "religious ecstasy" during a charismatic service--the leaping about, the compulsive laughing and/or crying, the rolling around on the floor screaming gibberish--you wouldn't be too surprised to learn the participants were either on something or coming off of something.

After all, if your goal is to deny reality, drugs can be much more helpful than religion in that regard. :D

[andyandy]

Besides, if you've ever witnessed people in the throes of "religious ecstasy" during a charismatic service--the leaping about, the compulsive laughing and/or crying, the rolling around on the floor screaming gibberish--you wouldn't be too surprised to learn the participants were either on something or coming off of something.

After all, if your goal is to deny reality, drugs can be much more helpful than religion in that regard. :D

hallucinogens/mind altering drugs and religion quite possibly have a longstanding relationship....

Using unusually rigorous scientific conditions and measures, Johns Hopkins researchers have shown that the active agent in “sacred mushrooms” can induce mystical/spiritual experiences descriptively identical to spontaneous ones people have reported for centuries.

The resulting experiences apparently prompt positive changes in behavior and attitude that last several months, at least.

The agent, a plant alkaloid called psilocybin, mimics the effect of serotonin on brain receptors-as do some other hallucinogens-but precisely where in the brain and in what manner are unknown. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html

discussed here
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60053&highlight=magic+mushrooms

and

No one has yet written a natural history of religion, but we have some idea of the story such a book would tell. Among other things, it would force us to rethink the relation of matter and spirit -- specifically, plant matter and human spirituality. For it would tell how a select group of plants and fungi (among them the peyote cactus, the Amanita muscaria and psilocybin mushrooms, the ergot fungus, the fermented grape, ayahuasca, and cannabis) were present at the creation of several of the world's religions. One of the earliest known religions was the cult of Soma, practiced by the ancient Indo-Europeans of central Asia; according to its sacred text, the Rig Veda, Soma was an intoxicant with the powers of god. People worshiped the drug itself -- which ethnobotanists now think was Amanita muscaria, the mushroom sometimes called fly magic -- as a path to divine knowledge.

Much the same process took place again and again all over the ancient world as people experimented, individually and in groups, with the power of plants to transcend the here and now and induce esctasy -- to take them elsewhere. What these peoples discovered was that certain plants and fungi (ethnobotanists call them "entheogens," meaning "the god within") opened a door onto another world. The images and words brought back from these journeys -- visits with the souls of the dead and unborn, visions of the afterlife, answers to life's questions -- were powerful enough to compel belief in a spirit world and, in some cases, to serve as the foundation of whole religions. http://www.amazon.com/gp/explorer/0375760393/2/ref=pd_lpo_ase/103-5363229-2858226?

discussed here
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63667&highlight=magic+mushrooms

so maybe we shouldn't be that surprised....:)

[pgwenthold]

Ted Haggard, meet Frank Garvin.

That's _Fred_ Garvin, not Frank.

[RandFan]

That's _Fred_ Garvin, not Frank.Damn. That makes me sad. :( That's the end of my wild and crazy life.

[Trantor]

man, he's a pretty fine liar....he must have had a lot of practise......


So was Jimmy Swaggart. I remember seeing him on a TV interview shortly before the allegations were made against him, and the interviewer was asking him about his feelings on the Jim Baker scandal; Swaggart claimed to be very dissapointed with Baker and said that he prayed a great deal for him. At the time of the interview, Swaggart was paying prostitutes for their services. He was very gifted liar, very convincing.

Last I heard Swaggart asked his Church for forgiveness and was back preaching at his Church. The guy is an amazing liar, he could reproduce desired emotions and real tears at will.

[Darth Rotor]

hallucinogens/mind altering drugs and religion quite possibly have a longstanding relationship....
This of course explains Mormons, temperance motivated Christians like some Baptists, and ascetic sects in general.

Carlos Castenada for fifty, Alex. :p

DR

[writerdd]

I feel bad for him, really. Did you read the letter that he sent to his church? He lives a complete life of self loathing. It's quite tragic. No, that doesn't make an excuse for his horrible behavoir. But it's still sad. And he won't get the help he needs either. Instead of coming to terms with his sexuality and learning to live an honest and healthy life, I'm sure he'll get counseling from his church on how to fight these evil temptations. He admits to immorality but on the wrong grounds. There is nothing immoral about homosexual sex (but he did cheat on his wife)... or about taking drugs (does anyone really care if it's illegal?). His immorality is tied up in the fact that he is passing on the same repressive and unhealthy attitudes about homosexuality that he has been brainwashed with since he was a child. I mean, I'm sure he does not even consciously realize that he is gay. He just thinks anyone can be tempted to do these things and he was weak, etc. Ther more I think about it, the more I agree with Richard Dawkins that religion indoctrination is child abuse and we must find a way to put a stop to it.

Sorry, but I find the whole thing much more tragic than funny.

[elaine]

Hey writerdd! How ya' doing?

I would be right there with you, if the man had not been so arrogant and condescending in his role.

[Darat]

I feel bad for him, really. Did you read the letter that he sent to his church? He lives a complete life of self loathing. It's quite tragic. No, that doesn't make an excuse for his horrible behavoir. But it's still sad. And he won't get the help he needs either. Instead of coming to terms with his sexuality and learning to live an honest and healthy life, I'm sure he'll get counseling from his church on how to fight these evil temptations. He admits to immorality but on the wrong grounds. There is nothing immoral about homosexual sex (but he did cheat on his wife)... or about taking drugs (does anyone really care if it's illegal?). His immorality is tied up in the fact that he is passing on the same repressive and unhealthy attitudes about homosexuality that he has been brainwashed with since he was a child. I mean, I'm sure he does not even consciously realize that he is gay. He just thinks anyone can be tempted to do these things and he was weak, etc. Ther more I think about it, the more I agree with Richard Dawkins that religion indoctrination is child abuse and we must find a way to put a stop to it.

Sorry, but I find the whole thing much more tragic than funny.

Is there any evidence for this idea of self-loathing? To me it seems as if he had his life nicely organized and was doing exactly what he wanted when he wanted.

[RandFan]

Hey writerdd! How ya' doing?

I would be right there with you, if the man had not been so arrogant and condescending in his role.I'm with you elaine.

[Katana]

This man is a skilled evangelist. He is only saying what he needs to say to appeal to his followers' sympathies. I see no reason to believe what he is saying now any more than I would if he were preaching the goslpel to me.

I do not feel sorry for him.

His family? Yes.

[bjb]

I'm not convinced he was a meth addict but I could be wrong. How much meth do you get for $100 or $200? Is that enough to keep a real addict going or is that only enough for an occasional user?

[headscratcher4]

Remember when Coulter accued Bill Clinton of being a closet-gay because of his lust for so many women (showing, I believe, to Coulter that Clinton was a latent homosexual...interestingly a Freudian term which one would have thought that a "values" person like Coulter would have rejected...but that's as may be, anyway...)?

Maybe this means that all of this lusting after gay prostitutes means that the good reverend is actually a latent heterosexual?

When god give's you lemons, make lemonaide!

[andyandy]

I'm not convinced he was a meth addict but I could be wrong. How much meth do you get for $100 or $200? Is that enough to keep a real addict going or is that only enough for an occasional user?

no idea on street prices...but i do know that crystal meths is supposed to be uber-addictive.....

[TheAntiLuddite]

Besides, if you've ever witnessed people in the throes of "religious ecstasy" during a charismatic service--the leaping about, the compulsive laughing and/or crying, the rolling around on the floor screaming gibberish--you wouldn't be too surprised to learn the participants were either on something or coming off of something.

Just found this:

Good Morning, Evangelicals!
by Tim Stafford
www.christianitytoday.com

Early this year, Haggard did send a memo to his congregation, tutoring them in proper behavior with TV reporters. "If a camera is on you during a worship service, worship; don't dance, jump, etc. … Jumping and dancing in church looks too bizarre for most to relate to. … Don't talk about the Devil, demons, voices speaking to you. … Instead, tell your personal story in common-sense language. … Don't be spooky or weird. Don't switch into a glassy-eyed heavenly mode."

Sounds like he didn't want any "true believers" blowing his ride. :)

[Vorticity]

... with an extra shot of "special sauce" once a month.
Must... resist...

[ponderingturtle]

no idea on street prices...but i do know that crystal meths is supposed to be uber-addictive.....

my understanding is that it is pretty cheap, and I am not sure how much more addictive it is than say heroin or coke.

[writerdd]

Is there any evidence for this idea of self-loathing? To me it seems as if he had his life nicely organized and was doing exactly what he wanted when he wanted.


Yes, he expressly mentioned his self loathing, although not those exact words, in his letter to the church. Most Christians have some degree of self loathing. It's part of the basic doctrines of the religion, original sin, and all that nonsense.

You obviously have never been involved in this kind of religious subculture. I don't think anyone who has never been involved in this kind of thing can ever hope to understand what it is like.

[writerdd]

Besides, if you've ever witnessed people in the throes of "religious ecstasy" during a charismatic service--the leaping about, the compulsive laughing and/or crying, the rolling around on the floor screaming gibberish--you wouldn't be too surprised to learn the participants were either on something or coming off of something.


I have witnessed and been in the throes of religious ecstasy and I am here to tell you that it does not require any drugs to acheive that state.

[writerdd]

I despise him. He should be serving people like this girl, there are so many out there. Instead he pretends to be like them, some kind of victim of himself. But he is not; he is only a pathetic illusion.

What a bunch of mean pricks you are. You are all just as bad as Haggard. Pretending to be so much better than the religious folks who put down gays and others who don't follow their rules. And here you are being mean ********, stomping on someone who has been manipulated by an abusive religious system since he was, at least, at teenager.

[pgwenthold]

Yes, he expressly mentioned his self loathing, although not those exact words, in his letter to the church. Most Christians have some degree of self loathing.


This was something I encountered at my sis-in-law's church once, and never understood. The preacher kept going on about how, no matter how bad life gets, you can always count on Jesus. When all you can feel is dispair, Jesus understands. Etc, etc, all with the theme of how life sucks, and religion can keep you going.

I was sitting there listening, thinking, but, my life _doesn't_ suck?! I have a great wife, whom I love dearly, a good and loving family, a good job, friends. Yep, all seems pretty good for me. Sure, there are tough times on occasion, but overall, I'm happy.

I must be in the minority, then, because there were all these people who's lives apparently suck. He even said, hey, if your life isn't that bad, then good for you, I'm glad you are happy. But I want to address those who's lives aren't as good as yours.

Now, this church was packed full of people, who are going their voluntarily, and not just because they are visiting their wife's sister. So are they the ones who are in such dispair?

All I could see was him preying on people. Instead of telling people to think of the good things they have, and to focus on what they have as opposed to what they don't, he affirms their insecurities (yes, your life sucks) and uses them for manipulation.

[Katana]

What a bunch of mean pricks you are. You are all just as bad as Haggard. Pretending to be so much better than the religious folks who put down gays and others who don't follow their rules. And here you are being mean ********, stomping on someone who has been manipulated by an abusive religious system since he was, at least, at teenager.

Perhaps it has been his active participation in the manipulation and fear- (and hate-) mongering that tempers the sympathies of those you accuse of being mean.

[Trantor]

my understanding is that it is pretty cheap, and I am not sure how much more addictive it is than say heroin or coke.

I saw a National Geographic show a couple of weeks ago on crystal meth. It stated that it's the most additive drug around. They compared it's effects to cocaine, and crystal meth was about twice as powerful in it's ability to overstimulate the pleasure areas of the brain. Extremely additive and when used over a long period of time, it's overstimulation of the brain will cause permanent damage.

[scotth]

writerdd,

I don't even begin to see this liar and crook as a victim in this story. I've had him pegged as a fraudster and arrogant [rule 8] for quite a while. I didn't suddenly become aware of him at the breaking of this scandal.

Justice, not victimhood.... That is my impression. I don't feel bad for him, and I don't feel about 'not feeling bad', either.

And, if any of the writers of 'gleeful' posts turn out to be as big of lying hypocrits as Haggard, I will laugh at them when they are exposed as well.

[writerdd]

This was something I encountered at my sis-in-law's church once, and never understood. The preacher kept going on about how, no matter how bad life gets, you can always count on Jesus. When all you can feel is dispair, Jesus understands. Etc, etc, all with the theme of how life sucks, and religion can keep you going.

I was sitting there listening, thinking, but, my life _doesn't_ suck?! I have a great wife, whom I love dearly, a good and loving family, a good job, friends. Yep, all seems pretty good for me. Sure, there are tough times on occasion, but overall, I'm happy.

I must be in the minority, then, because there were all these people who's lives apparently suck. He even said, hey, if your life isn't that bad, then good for you, I'm glad you are happy. But I want to address those who's lives aren't as good as yours.

Now, this church was packed full of people, who are going their voluntarily, and not just because they are visiting their wife's sister. So are they the ones who are in such dispair?

All I could see was him preying on people. Instead of telling people to think of the good things they have, and to focus on what they have as opposed to what they don't, he affirms their insecurities (yes, your life sucks) and uses them for manipulation.

BINGO! Religion is for those who have a sucky life. And just like commercials are made to help you see how bad your life is and that product XYZ will make your life better and you will be happier, so does religion. It get's REALLY bad when it focuses all of the goodness on the afterlife and does not even try to improve this life at all. A great tool for greedy politicians.

[Katana]

BINGO! Religion is for those who have a sucky life. And just like commercials are made to help you see how bad your life is and that product XYZ will make your life better and you will be happier, so does religion. It get's REALLY bad when it focuses all of the goodness on the afterlife and does not even try to improve this life at all. A great tool for greedy politicians.

And evangelists.

[writerdd]

writerdd,

I don't even begin to see this liar and crook as a victim in this story. I've had him pegged as a fraudster and arrogant [rule 8] for quite a while. I didn't suddenly become aware of him at the breaking of this scandal.

Justice, not victimhood.... That is my impression. I don't feel bad for him, and I don't feel about 'not feeling bad', either.

And, if any of the writers of 'gleeful' posts turn out to be as big of lying hypocrits as Haggard, I will laugh at them when they are exposed as well.

Yes, he was and maybe still is arrogant. Yes he learned how to take advantage of the system that he was in. But if you haven't been there, you can't understand how you can be manipulated and you can manipulate others at the same time.

I'm glad to see him come down from the perspective of the religious right and the fundamentalist BS doctrines and such, overall. But I feel bad for him as a human being because he has never had the chance to be himself or to be accepted except as a phoney.

[scotth]

But, I have been there.

[The Kilted Yaksman]

What a bunch of mean pricks you are. You are all just as bad as Haggard. Pretending to be so much better than the religious folks who put down gays and others who don't follow their rules. And here you are being mean ********, stomping on someone who has been manipulated by an abusive religious system since he was, at least, at teenager.
Yeah, it was the abusive religious system that turned him into the self-hating, drug-abusing, adulterer that he is today. That same abusive religious system that turned him into a rich, powerful, politically influential, evangelical icon...

[elaine]

Yes, he was and maybe still is arrogant. Yes he learned how to take advantage of the system that he was in. But if you haven't been there, you can't understand how you can be manipulated and you can manipulate others at the same time.

I'm glad to see him come down from the perspective of the religious right and the fundamentalist BS doctrines and such, overall. But I feel bad for him as a human being because he has never had the chance to be himself or to be accepted except as a phoney.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm going to have to disagree. He's an adult, and as an adult he's had choices. I was raised in a cult, Jehovah's Witnesses. When I became an adult, I realized that I couldn't live my life as a hypocrite, so I left. It was a difficult choice for me, my mother hasn't spoken to me in years, but one I had to make.

Many people have made these difficult decisions as well.

[slingblade]

What a bunch of mean pricks you are. You are all just as bad as Haggard. Pretending to be so much better than the religious folks who put down gays and others who don't follow their rules. And here you are being mean ********, stomping on someone who has been manipulated by an abusive religious system since he was, at least, at teenager.

Yeah, and made a crapload of money and got famous doing it, among other things. Oh, boo-hoo, the poor, mistreated thing.

People of Haggard's ilk abused me for years, through religion. When I hear about such devastating falls from personal elevation, I react with that abused nature, and don't really care how you feel about my doing it.

Haggard had plenty of people who loved him and cared about him, and to whom he could have gone at any time and asked for help with any problems, real or perceived, he had. That's what a "fellowship" is supposed to be for. It's not a Gathering of Wallets. He abused it, he's paying the price, and I'm laughing at him.

We're both victims of the same abuse, but he's gotten a hell of a lot better ride from his than I ever got from mine. He used his abuse to spread it to others, and get rich doing it. I've allowed mine to utterly cripple only me. I've no pity for him.

[andyandy]

my understanding is that it is pretty cheap, and I am not sure how much more addictive it is than say heroin or coke.

it's definitly pretty addictive.....

Experts say that crystal meth is one of the most addictive street drugs and one of the hardest to treat. Addiction counsellors say the relapse rate of 92 per cent is worse than cocaine.

The withdrawal symptoms, especially the depression and physical agony, are reported by addiction counsellors to be worse than heroin or cocaine, and often addicts will drop out of recovery programs. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/drugs/crystalmeth.html

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, he was and maybe still is arrogant. Yes he learned how to take advantage of the system that he was in. But if you haven't been there, you can't understand how you can be manipulated and you can manipulate others at the same time.

I'm glad to see him come down from the perspective of the religious right and the fundamentalist BS doctrines and such, overall. But I feel bad for him as a human being because he has never had the chance to be himself or to be accepted except as a phoney.

So we should feel bad for him because he might feel the way he has helped make hundreds to thousands of others feel?

[Kopji]

What a bunch of mean pricks you are. You are all just as bad as Haggard. Pretending to be so much better than the religious folks who put down gays and others who don't follow their rules. And here you are being mean ********, stomping on someone who has been manipulated by an abusive religious system since he was, at least, at teenager.
Hi writerdd,
While I never did any of the things Haggard did, I was a minister once. I could have stayed and lived a lie. I left and hurt many people I loved. It was not easy and has taken many years to even begin to adjust to 'unbelief'. Haggard chose an easy way and to do what he felt like. I see no "struggle" in his life, except to hide from the truth.

Do I pretend to be better than him? No. But there is one difference between us. I know that truth can be a bitter and ugly friend, but it is more valuable than any amount of the lies he chose to live by instead.

Haggard is victim of religion? Sure, in the same way Bin Laden is a victim of his beliefs.

[ponderingturtle]

Hey are we also supposted to feel bad for Kent Hovind he is going to prison after all. He is losing his freedom for what he believes in, that is not something to laugh at right?

His belief in particular is that he deserves as much as he can steal, in this regard there are a great many people locked up for the same belief.

[Canadian Malcontent]

Wonder if he will give up his worldly goods, you know the sackcloth and ashes thing?

I dont think so!

[Darat]

Yes, he expressly mentioned his self loathing, although not those exact words, in his letter to the church. Most Christians have some degree of self loathing. It's part of the basic doctrines of the religion, original sin, and all that nonsense.

You obviously have never been involved in this kind of religious subculture. I don't think anyone who has never been involved in this kind of thing can ever hope to understand what it is like.

Oh I understand his words its just that they do not tally up (in my opinion) with his actions. I'm a great believer in actions speak louder then words and his actions seem to to indicate that he has had his life very neatly arranged so that he could do whatever he wanted.

He could have had a sexual attraction to males all his life but he never had to act on them - wanting sex with men does not mean he ever had to have sex with men once he was married. That is no different then him having sex with a female.

[Darat]

What a bunch of mean pricks you are. You are all just as bad as Haggard. Pretending to be so much better than the religious folks who put down gays and others who don't follow their rules. And here you are being mean ********, stomping on someone who has been manipulated by an abusive religious system since he was, at least, at teenager.

He is an (apparently) intelligent and educated adult in a free society - he never had to start a church, he never had to do the preaching he did - they are all positive actions. I see evidence that he is a liar and a manipulator (his press interview linked to earlier in this thread).

[headscratcher4]

Oh I understand his words its just that they do not tally up (in my opinion) with his actions. I'm a great believe in actions speak louder then words and his actions seem to to indicate that he has had his life very neatly arranged so that he could do whatever he wanted.

He could have had a sexual attraction to males all his life but he never had to act on them - wanting sex with men does not mean he ever had to have sex with men once he was married. That is no different then him having sex wit ha female.


Indeed, not to take anything away from his late apology and admission...clearly, he would have perferred not to have been caught. He confessed because he was caught and only because he was caught. It seems to me that had he been living the values he says he believes...i.e. that he really was self-loathing...he would have stood-up, confessed BEFORE being caught and thus basked in the clear forgiveness of his flock and his savior.

In the end, he really hasn't taken responsibilty for his actions...the humility he exhibits is the humility of the exposed not the humility of the "reformed"...
it is all so terribly tiresome and completely expected.

[scotth]

"humility of the exposed not the humility of the reformed"...

Mind if I steal that headscratcher?

[RandFan]

"humility of the exposed not the humility of the reformed"...

Mind if I steal that headscratcher? Yeah, that's good.

It's certainly possible that having been caught Haggard is now truly contrite but I'm skeptical. Why did he obfuscate when it was first brought to light? I'm guessing that it's because he thought he might be able to get away with it.

Of course, he has done nothing wrong that he needs to apologize to society for with the exception of being a hypocrite. His sex life is between him, his wife and those that he is sexually intimate with. Sadly our society makes such indiscretions immoral and thus families suffer.

[joobz]

Of course, he has done nothing wrong that he needs to apologize to society for with the exception of being a hypocrite. His sex life is between him, his wife and those that he is sexually intimate with. Sadly our society makes such indiscretions immoral and thus families suffer.

Oh, but he does.
He had preached against the sin of homosexuality to millions. He had convinced many others how bad they were for being homosexual while doing it himself. you shouldn't be allowed to get away with ruining peoples live's when you can't even live by your own words.

The magnitude of the hipocricy is what should be sorry for.

[RandFan]

Oh, but he does.
He had preached against the sin of homosexuality to millions. He had convinced many others how bad they were for being homosexual while doing it himself. you shouldn't be allowed to get away with ruining peoples live's when you can't even live by your own words.

The magnitude of the hipocricy is what should be sorry for.Odd, I could have sworn that is the point that I made. :confused:

Of course, he has done nothing wrong that he needs to apologize to society for with the exception of being a hypocrite...

[I less than three logic]

Odd, I could have sworn that is the point that I made. :confused:
You weren’t cruel enough. Simply saying he’s a hypocrite just doesn’t cut it. :D

[joobz]

Odd, I could have sworn that is the point that I made. :confused:
Yes you did, I was (like I less than three stated) was hoping for more cruelity:blush: .

The magnitude of the hipocricy can't be and shouldn't be minimized.

[RandFan]

Got it! I'm slow sometimes. :)

[Tricky]

Yes you did, I was (like I less than three stated) was hoping for more cruelity:blush: .

The magnitude of the hipocricy can't be and shouldn't be minimized.
Good posts, Joobz, but please install the spell checker. I don't know how much more often I can stand to see "hypocrisy" misspelled. It looks almost as if you're talking about a "hip-hopcricy", which would be government by rap singers.

[joobz]

Good posts, Joobz, but please install the spell checker. I don't know how much more often I can stand to see "hypocrisy" misspelled. It looks almost as if you're talking about a "hip-hopcricy", which would be government by rap singers.
how do you spell super embarrassed?

[Tricky]

how do you spell super embarrassed?
Don't be. I couldn't live without spell-check. Even with it, I still screw up. I really just wanted to make the "hip-hop" joke.

[writerdd]

Oh, but he does.
He had preached against the sin of homosexuality to millions. He had convinced many others how bad they were for being homosexual while doing it himself. you shouldn't be allowed to get away with ruining peoples live's when you can't even live by your own words.

The magnitude of the hipocricy is what should be sorry for.

Agreed.

[a_unique_person]

Indeed, not to take anything away from his late apology and admission...clearly, he would have perferred not to have been caught. He confessed because he was caught and only because he was caught. It seems to me that had he been living the values he says he believes...i.e. that he really was self-loathing...he would have stood-up, confessed BEFORE being caught and thus basked in the clear forgiveness of his flock and his savior.

Maybe his saviour, but not his flock. I doubt they would ever forgive the sin of homosexuality in his neck of the woods.

[scotth]

Maybe his saviour, but not his flock. I doubt they would ever forgive the sin of homosexuality in his neck of the woods.

What? He may not be back in charge, by the sounds of things they are already ready to overlook this.

[Donn]

they are already ready to overlook this.
They were reborn ready.




:blush:

[Ladewig]

I agree with the other posters who refuse to award him victim status. He founded a church which preached against homosexuality. He used his position to fight for the limitations of the rights of homosexuals while being attracted to men. The Bible (Titus 1) says that religious leaders are to be held to a higher standard, if he wasn't prepared to do what he told others to do, then he should have stepped down. He could have left the ministry at any time of his life and not been a flaming hypocrite. Christians believe that one reaps what one sows. He sowed the seeds of hatred and he is reaping embarassment and disgrace. I see no shame in enjoying my schadenfreude.

[headscratcher4]

Any bet on when he will check himself into a clinic?

[ponderingturtle]

Any bet on when he will check himself into a clinic?

What one of those that cures homosexuality?

[elaine]

I think it's the alcoholic defense.

[ponderingturtle]

I think it's the alcoholic defense.

So what is the list of things alcohol makes you now include?

Of late it seems to be
Homosexual
Pederasty
Antisemitism
Misogyny

What else

[headscratcher4]

Either...

BTW...as I pointed out in an other thread...he should not eat soy products.

[Katana]

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) -- Focus on the Family founder James Dobson will be one of the people overseeing counseling for the Rev. Ted Haggard, the evangelical pastor who was fired amid allegations of gay sex and drug use, a senior official of Dobson's organization said Monday.

The counseling process, called restoration, could take years, said H.B. London, vice president for church and clergy at Focus on the Family, a Colorado Springs-based ministry.
Definition of restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition; "restore the forest to its original pristine condition"

By Haggard's own words:
“The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There’s a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life,” he said.
(my bold)

Is "restore" really the correct word here?
Dobson will join pastor Jack Hayford of The Church on the Way in Van Nuys, Calif. and the pastor Tommy Barnett of First Assembly of God in Phoenix in overseeing Haggard, according to a letter from Haggard read at New Life services on Sunday.

"Those men will perform a thorough analysis of my mental, spiritual, emotional and physical life. They will guide me through a program with the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage and my family," Haggard wrote.

Link (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HAGGARD_DOBSON?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US)

[Darat]

....snip...

“The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There’s a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life,” he said.

...snip...


He doesn't seem to have been warring against very much if you ask me!

And I wonder what he considered the "repulsive and dark" parts of his life? The damage he has helped cause many people? His lies and his hypocrisy?

It can't be the that he wanted sex with men because 1) he never had to carry that out 2) he did have sex with at least one man.

[Mr. Scott]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/67364550a22c5d796.jpg

One thing that fascinated me when I saw Dawkins' Root of all Evil about Haggard was the permanent snarl on his Haggard's face. Why does a man pushing a purportedly loving religion snarl -- baring his teeth like a rabid dog even when he smiles? What do his followers feel about the perennial snarl? It gives me the creeps! My guess is his sect is driven by hatred -- for homosexuals, abortionists, aetheists, democrats, evolutionists -- anyone who's against 'em.

I understand the people who most strenuously rage against gays are either manifestly or latently gay themselves, and use homophobia as a cover and/or to try unconsciously to kill off what is inside themselves. This phenomenon is found in other areas, too. The man who started covenant house -- a facility to protect child prostitutes -- was a case in point. I got one of his free books in the mail and it amazed me that he cruised the streets at night looking for young male prostitutes he could save, and he seldom failed to describe how cute they were and hardly ever mentioned the girls IIRC. Later he was convicted of molesting the boys in his facility purportedly set up to protect them.

I have no doubt that Haggard railed against illegal drugs, too, and I'm betting he really did inhale (swallow?). Why isn't he submitting himself to a drug test? Has anyone asked? It's commonplace in so many areas now. Prove it, Pastor!

Closing zinger:

I hopy this brings down Haggard's holy house of hatred and hypocrisy. I wonder if Haggard will still phone Bush once a week -- and if so, what they will say.

S

[Steven Howard]

Good posts, Joobz, but please install the spell checker. I don't know how much more often I can stand to see "hypocrisy" misspelled. It looks almost as if you're talking about a "hip-hopcricy", which would be government by rap singers.

3977

[bjb]

Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have morals or virtues that one does not truly possess or practice.

Hypocracy is a form of government for a nation state which pretends to have morals or virtues that it does not truly possess or practice.

[Moochie]

Hi writerdd,
While I never did any of the things Haggard did, I was a minister once. I could have stayed and lived a lie. I left and hurt many people I loved. It was not easy and has taken many years to even begin to adjust to 'unbelief'. Haggard chose an easy way and to do what he felt like. I see no "struggle" in his life, except to hide from the truth.

Do I pretend to be better than him? No. But there is one difference between us. I know that truth can be a bitter and ugly friend, but it is more valuable than any amount of the lies he chose to live by instead.

Haggard is victim of religion? Sure, in the same way Bin Laden is a victim of his beliefs.

Good post, Kopji.

It's clear to me that Haggard had choices, and that he chose to take advantage of the situation he found himself in.

It also puzzles me why he would be so apparently reckless as to jeopardize all he'd built. Did he want to be found out?

I'm in agreement with an earlier poster who lamented the fact that now Haggard's been found out, he's using weasel words to justify himself.

He's in a position to do a great deal of good now, vis-s-vis debunking the entire religious edifice, but it appears he's again choosing the comparatively easier path.

M.

[headscratcher4]

It also puzzles me why he would be so apparently reckless as to jeopardize all he'd built. Did he want to be found out?



It seems to me that his ultimate "sin" (read failing) is that he is incredibly narcissitic (sp?) and selfish. The rules he would apply to others don't pertain to him...whether because he could and did always find away to explain it away to himself (and God?) or because he thought himself above those rules -- not uncommon for those who find that their voice/ideas can motivate the masses.

And, as I suggested earlier, he'd still be at it, were he not caught.

[imagineNoReligion]

It seems, given that God has a special list of things, that he really doesn't want you to do (i.e. the ten Commandments), that Ted Haggard still has a big problem keeping one in particular, "Thou shalt not lie."

His final admission and letter to his church still smells of dishonesty :


The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry


So which accusation is not true? There were only two reported.

He had sex with a gay escort.
He used methamphetamine.So which accusation is not true?

Let's deal with accusation 1 first. He previously stated that he had only received a massage from the gay escort, but in his letter to his church, he states,

The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality

That would seem to imply that he is taking responsibility for accusation 1.

On to accusation 2. He previously stated that he had bought the drugs once, but threw them away without using them, but the transcription of the audio tape clearly shows that isn't true :


"Hi, Mike, this is Art. Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply."


So even after he has been caught and is forced to admit his wrong doing, he can't even tell the whole truth. Maybe the 10 commandments are not that important after all.

[joobz]

It seems, given that God has a special list of things, that he really doesn't want you to do (i.e. the ten Commandments), that Ted Haggard still has a big problem keeping one in particular, "Thou shalt not lie."

Um, not to nitpick...but (well, actually I'm going to nitpick).
there is no "thou shalt not lie." commandment.

There is a "thou shalt not bear false witness agains thy neighbor.."
But that's been tranditionally accepted as meaning he shouldn't lie about someone else in court.

had he said, "Drugs? those aren't my drugs. those are joobz's drugs." That would be a commandment breaker. But just lieing isn't.



So which accusation is not true?

Well there is the combination accusation,
that he had gay sex while high on meth.

So maybe he got high and had gay sex, but just not at the same time. cause that would be really, really bad...I guess.

[headscratcher4]

So maybe he got high and had gay sex, but just not at the same time. cause that would be really, really bad...I guess.

Unless he was into both...in which case it would be really, really good. ;)

[Region Rat]

In a letter to the church, she has stated that she is standing by him. http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326185&secid=1

She also states that Ted is "the visible and public evidence that every man (woman and child) needs a Savior".

It's a miracle, just the sign I was looking for, I'm off to church.


Wake up, Gayle. Its more like Ted is the visible and public evidence that having a savior doesn't do a whole heck of a lot for you.

[headscratcher4]

Wake up, Gayle. Its more like Ted is the visible and public evidence that having a savior doesn't do a whole heck of a lot for you.

Indeed, one has to assume that the first time Ted was born again, that he had a savior looking out for him...at least by virtue of what he professess to believe...yet that savior let him down.

Of course, that savior did more...it built him up, let him think he was invulnerable, wasn't there when the devil within came a' knocking and then exposed him, knocked him down and humiliated him and his family as a moral lesson to the masses about hubris. Nice savior that...he's got your back!

[imagineNoReligion]

Um, not to nitpick...but (well, actually I'm going to nitpick).
there is no "thou shalt not lie." commandment.

There is a "thou shalt not bear false witness agains thy neighbor.."
But that's been tranditionally accepted as meaning he shouldn't lie about someone else in court.



Traditionally accepted by whom? Not the Catholic church, for one. Although I can find references to it being a traditional definition, there is wide disagreement over it's meaning.

[scotth]

Traditionally accepted by whom? Not the Catholic church, for one. Although I can find references to it being a traditional definition, there is wide disagreement over it's meaning.

Language scholars mainly.

[RSLancastr]

Even if this guy goes down I doubt his flock will look at the next guy any more critically.I'm guessing he does.

Or at least he has. Once a month, for the past three yeas.

[pgwenthold]

Language scholars mainly.


"Language scholars" would also tell you that the "elohim" usage in Genesis refers to a plurality of gods, but it means nothing theologically.

Language scholarship means nothing unless it can be used to support preconceived beliefs about what the text should say, generally based in tradition (see Sodom and Gamorrah or the sin of Onan)

[RSLancastr]

(see Sodom and Gamorrah or the sin of Odin)Odin? Did you mean Onan?

[pgwenthold]

Odin? Did you mean Onan?

Who, me?


whoops

[Darat]

Odin? Did you mean Onan?

Who, me?


whoops

RS - go easy on him his eyesight is going you know.....

[ponderingturtle]

Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have morals or virtues that one does not truly possess or practice.

Hypocracy is a form of government for a nation state which pretends to have morals or virtues that it does not truly possess or practice.

Going to proper greek root wouldn't that really mean rule by actors?

[pgwenthold]

RS - go easy on him his eyesight is going you know.....

"My brothers, they never went blind for what they but I may as well have been..."

Alanis Morrisette

[joobz]

Traditionally accepted by whom? Not the Catholic church, for one. Although I can find references to it being a traditional definition, there is wide disagreement over it's meaning.
that may be, but Ted's not catholic so he doesn't have that pesky "no lie" rule.

[chris epic]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/67364550a22c5d796.jpg

Yeah, he looks a bit haggard if you ask me

[bjb]

It looks like he's on the road to 'restoration'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061108/ap_on_re_us/haggard_what_s_next

"From the Christian perspective, we think in terms of prayer, we think in terms of what we call godly counsel, where godly men who are clean themselves insert themselves in the life of the one who is struggling," London said.

Isn't that what got Haggard in trouble in the first place?

[Quinn]

Isn't that what got Haggard in trouble in the first place?

Not only that, but also from the article:

"There will be prayer, and perhaps the laying on of hands."

These are professional writers. They have to be doing this on purpose.

[elaine]

Not only that, but also from the article:

"There will be prayer, and perhaps the laying on of hands."

These are professional writers. They have to be doing this on purpose.

I sprayed my tea.:D

[Donn]

... we think in terms of what we call godly counsel, where godly men who are clean themselves ...
How do they know that those "godly" men are clean? They should suspect a "Haggardian Recursion" among their godly men by now!

And why doesn't Jayeesus forgive and "heal" his fallen minister? What's that we hear? Chirp ... chirp ...

Bah.

[Mr. Scott]

And why doesn't Jayeesus forgive and "heal" his fallen minister? What's that we hear? Chirp ... chirp ...

The isn't the slightest bit of evidence that a sexual inclination, like homosexuality, has ever been fully remedied by Jayeesus. Even science has a devil of a time with that one.

A sex researcher I once knew told a story of a visit to a group of purportedly cured-by-god ex-homosexuals. The scene he described IIRC was a dinner with the boys and their leader at a large table. He noticed that the supposedly ex-gay boys were extremely, unusually effeminate. The pastor told him to ask any question of the boys related to their "recovery," which he was assured was 100%.

He asked the boys, "Do you mean to tell me that if any of you happend across the exact type of male who most attracted you before you were cured, you wouldn't feel the slightest tinge..."

The pastor hastily interrupted him, declared that he knew what he was after and wouldnt let him question his boys that way.

So much for the power of prayer.

[headscratcher4]

http://www.glumbert.com/media/fifties

If only Ted and Tom Foley had wateched this when they were younger.

[bjb]

http://www.glumbert.com/media/fifties

If only Ted and Tom Foley had wateched this when they were younger.

What makes you think they didn't? It's meant to warn against homosexuals but the film can also be viewed as a how-to guide on picking up teenage boys.

[headscratcher4]

Or...how to seduce an older man... ;)

[Donn]

The isn't the slightest bit of evidence that a sexual inclination, like homosexuality, has ever been fully remedied by Jayeesus.
I meant that at Haggard's peak Jesus and Co. could do anything. J & Co. would give one love, support and mercy. They would listen to ones problems and prayers. They would know ones heart and appreciate ones devotion. Yadda yadda yadda.
But when everything is going wrong, all that stuff is demonstrated to be just so much platitude. There was no "cure" or revelation to "help" Haggy-boy cease his worldy ways. No amount of prayer or Jayeesus Triage was helping.

Call out to God when times are good, but to fellow men when they are bad and then claim success as God's all along.

[Ladewig]

Continuing to point out what an a-hole Haggard is at this point may be akin to "piling on" in football, but I felt the need to post after learning that Haggard once commented on Gay Pride Day by saying, "I don't understand it. It would be like having a murderer's pride day." New Republic, July 8, 1996

Well, Pastor Ted, if they ever hold a hypocrites' pride parade, we'll elect you to be the grand marshall.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Well, Pastor Ted, if they ever hold a hypocrites' pride parade, we'll elect you to be the grand marshall.

Grandpa always said... if you spend all your time walking around with your nose in the air, eventually you'll step into some ****.

Ted should repent and give his life to God... and if that doesn't work... perhaps shemales is the answer. :D