Help me win the $50,000 finders fee

[robinson]

I have found not one, but two people that might win the MDC. I wasn't looking for these persons, and they didn't make any claim about having powers, or abilities. What happened was I found out from a third party about something woo going on. And I did some research, then some testing. And things did not go as I thought. Not at all.

As far as I know, I can't win the million, but I read you can get 50 grand for finding someone who can. Is that still true? Either way..

Two problems. And I don't know if they can be overcome, but for 50 thousand, I'll give it a try. Heck, I will do it just to find out what is going on here.

:wackywink:

First problem, getting them to do it. Neither party is interested. Not because they hate money, (they both have plenty), but because they don't want any publicity at all. They don't want anyone to know about what they can do, and they refuse to become public figures in any way. I'm sure that is a familiar excuse for not taking the MDC. Even so, it presents a problem. They also did not know about the MDC, or any of the other challenges.

They also don't think there is anything paranormal or special about what they seem to be capable of. In fact, one of them got mad when I did a test without telling them first. A test that showed there was something strange actually going on, that I couldn't explain. I did the test without telling them because I had to. Otherwise they would have known I was testing them. (I've done this before, sometimes you can't tell somebody upfront you are getting ready to expose them, it doesn't work).

However, the test didn't debunk anything. In fact, the results pointed to something really happening, that shouldn't have happened.

Another thing, neither party knows each other, or anything about the other.

Now I have debunked a lot of pyschics and woo stuff in the last 30 years. This stuff has got to be a flaw in my testing. It HAS to be or there is really something that I can't explain. Which is the second problem.

I think I am pretty good at doing a test, but maybe not. I have no doubt the sceptics that read and post here, can show the flaw in this protocol in a heartbeat. Please don't jump all over my junk for the ease of method. I had to come up with something quick, and on the spot. Because there was no time to set up anything complex.

Before I go further, is this a valid thread here? And can I do this? Ask for help from the JREF forum?

I have nothing to contact the JREF with at present, but with some help I may do so. What say the collective mind of you, the reader? Anyone willing to help me get the cash?

Or more likely, realize what I did wrong.

[robinson]

Addendum: I don't believe in the paranormal, I don't believe in violations of the know laws of Physics, and I am not joking about this. Even if something strange is shown to be going on, I believe it to have a scientific explanation.

[Apathia]

It think it's much more likely that we will be able to help you debunk than to help you get the finder's fee. But either way we need factual details.

What did these people do that was so unusual?

Will you be able to examine their activity again or have you already spooked them so that they won't do another demonstration for you?

Do they actually exist, or are you setting up a thought question about the Challenge?

[Ririon]

What Hyparxis said.

Plus: Where did you read about the finder's fee?

[webfusion]

The money will come out of the million.

So they have to apply, and win, before you see a dime.

[JimTheBrit]

Plus: Where did you read about the finder's fee?

HERE? (http://www.mindspring.com/%7Eanson/randi-hotline/1998/0012.html)

[robinson]

Hey there Hyparxis. Thanks for responding.

It think it's much more likely that we will be able to help you debunk than to help you get the finder's fee. But either way we need factual details.

I have to agree. If it wasn't bugging me so much I would just forget about these events.

Will you be able to examine their activity again or have you already spooked them so that they won't do another demonstration for you?

In the second case I'm pretty sure I poisoned the well. Too bad really, as in some regards it was more interesting. But some serious issues, and a real issue with publicity. If this person knew I was even talking about it here, there would be trouble. And I mean for me.


Do they actually exist, or are you setting up a thought question about the Challenge?

This is not a thought question. I wouldn't jerk anyone around on stuff like this. Ruins your credibility, not worth it.

What did these people do that was so unusual?

Short story, it would be called clairvoyance, in this case seeing colors and light around people, animals, and objects. Focusing on Case 1 (C1), subject did not advertise this, nor consider it unusual. Investigation found it was ignored for the most part, had existed since childhood, and C1 did not know what it was called, nor has any formal understanding of what it is supposed to mean to the paranormal believer. Subject does have some ideas, based on experience, relating certain colors with certain kinds of people.

Subject did not think it was that important, but was willing to answer questions, on a limited basis.

Colors are not associated with headaches, do not come and go, but are a constant. No obvious health issues, nothing unusual found through general questions. Mental health appears stable, no signs of trauma or strange beliefs. Religious , but not active in any church or faith based organization. Social skills, well groomed, intelligent, educated. No evidence of synesthesia.

Subject was willing to be questioned and do some test. Nothing was said about reason for test, other than general curiosity about the colors.

Protocol 1. Because there was a field of some sort, or colors, viewed around everything, subject was asked to describe what was seen around various objects. This led up to viewing a powerful magnet, which did not appear to be a magnet. (12,000 gauss ceramic magnets, wrapped in duct tape)

Subject described a colored field around first magnet, indicated it looked different on each side. When two magnets were introduced subject became fascinated with what could only be described as the interaction between them. Subject said they both had visible colors extending out from them. (No other object displayed such a field). Subject was asked to not play with the magnets.

Subject was asked to identify magnet, by pointing to it, when hidden behind a thick wool blanket. Subject did so. Correctly in every trial. Attempt to fool subject by having no magnet failed. Subject also kept pointing out poles, even when asked to stop.

Subject was asked to find one magnet, hidden under blanket, in the dark. Procedure was to have subject leave room, magnet was placed under blanket, which was folded, so no outline showed, then lights turned out. Subject was brought in, asked to point, but not touch, where magnet was. Subject did so, 100% accuracy, every time. 5 trials.

OK, now I'm getting woo feelings. Subject leaves room again, I toss magnet under blanket, so I don't know where it is, turn off lights. Subject comes in, points to where magnet is "seen", not allowed to touch anything. Subject also declares it is north pole up. Ha ha. Not funny.

I turn on lights, pull back blanket, magnet is in exact location subject indicated, I check with compass, north pole up. Ha ha, I'm not laughing.

Repeat test. Positive. Repeat test. Positive. Repeat test, but no magnet under blanket. Subject laughs, says no magnet. Repeat test with two magnets. Subject points to both, while hidden, states which pole is up on both. Positive, in all regards.

Subject is told I have to meet some people, subject leaves. Subject declares my colors don't look well. Ha ha.

Subject had no knowledge at that time of MDC.

I know that to be double blind, I need another person to hide the damn magnet, or magnets, or no magnet. But the thought this person is reading my mind to know where the damn magnets were is even more absurd.

And I can't tell which pole is which without a compass. It was the pole thing that really bugged me. The description of how the magnetic fields interacted was even more woo than finding them while hidden. They appeared to be able to see this, and accurately describe the interaction.

Argh. This woo stuff is bugging me. Debunk please.

Protocol 2 is even more unbelievable. But I am going to repeat it before saying more. It has to be a fluke.

[rjh01]

Try the same test with a piece of metal that is not a magnet. There may be a bump in the blanket that you cannot see.
Some people do see some very strange things. For example they see sounds. I am wondering if this is a variation.

[robinson]

Hi there rjh01.

I shortened up the procedure of how I got to a dark room with a crumpled up thick blanket over a magnet.

But I assure you, I have excellent eyesight, and could not detect anything under the rumpled blanket, in the lighted room. Much less in almost pitch dark.

The rejected protocol before that was to have the blanket suspended, with the magnet held away from it, behind the blanket, so there was no bump, lump or any way to see it. And with no lighting behind the blanket. That was rejected when I thought the subject was somehow reading my body language to tell where I was holding it.

Which I thought was nuts, but led to the eventual throwing the magnet, under the blanket, on the bed, so even I didn't know where it was exactly. I've thought about this for a while now. I didn't expect the test to even get to the point of needing a double blind, a third person to hide the damn magnet.

I like the idea of a fake magnet, that doesn't look any more like a magnet than the fake looking real magnets. I could easily arrange that.

edit: The magnets in question are flat rectangles. Less than a half inch thick. After considering, I will use a bunch of fake magnets, and one real one. That might work.

[Gravy]

Interesting. Do you know how the third party you spoke of found out about the similar abilities of these two unrelated people?

[Apathia]

Yes, the aura thing. Allow me to organize it a little.

1. A impairment of vision. Some people see a colored glow around objects and people in connection with migraines, neurological conditions, and tragically brain tumors. An individual could have a visual defect in which the cones of the retina are firing inappropriately. A medical exam is called for. Did C2 also have this condition from childhood?

2. An intuitive code. Some people with this visual condition learn how to manipulate it meaningfully.
I mean they develop a color code. Usually something like a mood ring. They see a blue haze around a person that they associate with "calmness." There's nothing there of itself. They pick up behavior clues of that person's mood and translate what color to see. It's a kind of unconscious code. You can buy books that teach how to see auras. And with diligence you can learn this dubious art, but it's just an illusion.

C1 has over the years refined and sophisticated this effect.
The question is what are the cues he's depending upon? They aren't details he's conscious of. That's why a single observer with a few limited tests can't really get to the bottom of it. It needs a more subtle investigation involving multiple observers and blinds.

I don't find it implausible that an individual might have a tactile sensitivity to a magnetic field. I know this doesn't account for C1's appearant ability to spot it from a distance, but this kind of thing could be translated into an "auric" color. But speculation is a very poor way to begin a natural explanation.
More observations and more tests are needed before what you saw can even be verified as something of substance.

I'm afraid then that in the case of C1 that opportunity may already be lost.
I can understand this person not wishing to become a side show freak. Here was something he took for granted for years. He probably thought it was normal and everyone saw these colors. Then one day someone told him he wasn't normal. Being "paranormal" isn't far from being "abnormal." Proving that you are abnormal, isn't a desirable thing.

Of course there's another factor to consider. What if C1 knew you had a magnet in disguise. It could be an elaborate ruse. I know it didn't seem that way to you. If the trick's done well, the observer can't imagine how it was done.

[robinson]

Gravy.

Third party. Two different third parties, not the same person. C1 it was mentioned in passing after I talked about research with color perception and psychology. Suggested I meet. I didn't think to ask how it was known.

C2 was very strange. I knew the person in question for years, and never knew anything about this going on. Third party knew about it from another source. Much weirdness around C2, but no chance of any challenge there.

Hyparxis,

Yes, when I found out a "glow" or aura was seen around everything, I suspected some sort of brain disorder. I know how to create that sort of effect with lighting and setting, but it doesn't seem to match what is described at all. Very strange. C2 also claims this effect has always been there. In C2, there are definite mental problems, understandable after a little history was revealed. Very sad really, and yes, it must be terrible to truly be that different.

The confusion over the magnet experiment baffles me. It got worse when I tried another test using a magnet. This would be with C2. This time it was an almost offhand test. I hid a powerful magnet without saying anything about it.

Now understand, I had no idea what would happen, it wasn't scientific, it was more like just wanting to see what would happen. So I hide this magnet, not the same kind, I hide this powerful magnet over a door frame.

Then I simply asked "What does my aura look like?", and let them describe it. Fascinating really, the depth of the description. Then I walk over to the door frame and stand right under the magnet. Then ask again, "How about now?".

I'm expecting either no change, or "Hey! You have something hidden up there!", or something. I really didn't know. It was just fooling around you know?

So I get this shocked expression. I'm like, "What? What does it look like?", you know, urging them to speak.

But instead of a description, I get this, "How are you doing that? How are you doing that?". ?? Huh? What? Doing what?! What?

Well, it turns out what was happening, inside of their perception, was my vortex was splaying out in a weird way. Stay with me, I didn't know any of this either, at the time. What vortex? What do you mean?

It seems that the difference between people, animals, living things, and inanimate objects, is this vortex either going into or coming out of the top of the head. Like a funnel with colors flowing up and down, spiraling into and out of your head. I'm not making this up. And it seems my vortex was acting in a very strange way when I was directly under the magnet.

I step away, it goes back to normal, I step under it again, it goes weird. I'm not getting much feedback at this point, what I'm getting is "How are you doing that?". "How are you making it do that?"

And then everything goes sideways. I show the magnet, and the proverbial crap hits the rotating blades. I'm trying to explain that I was just doing a little test, and BAM here it comes. There screaming, and yelling, and then the running and the hiding....

Seems doubting and testing can be dangerous. I still want to know what the hell happened. Did my body language give it away? Are some people so sensitive to every little thing it is like they are actually reading you? Translating it into some visual thing? And however I gave it away, how come it was translated into a vortex splaying out over my head? And how come I wasn't told about the damn vortex before that?

I asked a bunch of questions, and there was no vortex mentioned. Later I find out there is a whole lot more than just colors being seen. There is an entire 3D energy field thing, with flowing lines, and vortexes, and interactions between fields, and pulsing, and some really really out there stuff.

All of this going on like some realtime serious CG inside of a persons brain/perception/something, I don't even know how to describe it.

And I get the strong sense that this is not something being made up. While there may be nothing actually there, there certainly is something there inside the persons mind. And I can accept that, maybe even understand that, but how can a magnet be involved with that?

Especially when they don't even know the magnet is in the friggin equation? Picking up on subtle cues is real, Clever Hans noted, but still, it sure is friggin creepy when you experience it. It seems like woo.

Later I brought up the MDC, talked about doing some prelim tests, protocol, that sort of thing. Thats when problem one started.

Thinking upon this now, after your insightful comments, it must be a common malady, this perception of colors and lights. It seems to exist in many cultures, over a very long timeline. True woo, true woo.

[MatterHorn]

In the case of C1: I know very little about magnet strengths, but you referred to the magnets as very strong in you test post. Is it at all possible that the subject was using a concealed device, for example a compass, to determine the magnets position and orientation?

Edit: In the second case it seems very possible that you influenced the persons response. Introducing the variable so early means you never saw if she would respond the same way to a challenge without a magnet. By challenging her to notice a change you might have alerted her to something going on, and it might be possible that your body language and stance made her feel something was different so she claimed to see a difference.

I very sorry if that paragraph is round about, but I have a terrible head ache and the English language refuses to parse correctly

also edited to make my first point clearer.

[robinson]

That would be C1 and the hidden magnets? No jewelry, and no warning about the magnet, magnets. But that is a possibility. The thing is, there was no waving the hands around, no searching, it was like, there it is, pointing. Like a flashlight was hidden under a blanket. Damn strange.

I need a foolproof protocol, easy to set up and use, that would eliminate any trickery. The fact that a magnet could be "seen" eliminated the human "aura" issue. But did bring in the problem of using a magnet to detect the magnet. But they were not allowed near the damn blanket at the end. They only were allowed to point to it.

Still, it was a powerful magnet. Even the slightest of hidden magnets could allow for a trained person to detect such a field. Hidden, and in the dark. That could be it.

[MatterHorn]

I really hate to just be throwing out guesses with no real idea of everything you have done so far, but could the subject in C1 have been spying on you as you placed the magnets? Was there a key hole, or space underneath the door through which they could have viewed the placement?

The quickest answer I can think of to fix the magnet location dilemma is to use a much weaker magnet. If the subject can still see the field generated by say, a refrigerator magnet then it could be hidden without worrying about it being located from a distance.

My biggest problem with C1 in particular is the subjects assertion that they believed their power to be nothing special. It would be hard to go through life without once being told that no, most people don’t see glowing auras around everything. Could this have been a way to make you drop your guard, have you believe they were less ready to deceive than they actually were?

Please stop me if you've already thought these things through, but the combination of your posts and your avatar have me picturing someone a little pre-occupied by the things he has witnessed, and perhaps overlooking some smaller things. Really it’s just the stubbly man in a bath robe that’s doing it, so this is all probably moot.

[Apathia]

Well, it turns out what was happening, inside of their perception, was my vortex was splaying out in a weird way. Stay with me, I didn't know any of this either, at the time. What vortex? What do you mean?

It seems that the difference between people, animals, living things, and inanimate objects, is this vortex either going into or coming out of the top of the head. Like a funnel with colors flowing up and down, spiraling into and out of your head. I'm not making this up. And it seems my vortex was acting in a very strange way when I was directly under the magnet.

Good test! It beats me. But the vortex stuff isn't surprising. It's all standard feature in certain school of energy healing, such as Polarity Therapy and the Barbara Brennan School of Psychic Healing. I've met people who claim to be able to see all that stuff, and each of them said it their perception of "Aura" began in connection with peyote, Marijuana, or the like. At which point I, being such a neopuritan as to have never done drugs or alcohol, payed no more attention to anything they had to say on the subject.

If your people are that detailed with their auric experiences, then I would be surprised if they don't have interests in the whole chakra and energy shebang. See if the name, Barbara Brennan rings a bell for them.
Of course this is wast woo-woo.

And then everything goes sideways. I show the magnet, and the proverbial crap hits the rotating blades. I'm trying to explain that I was just doing a little test, and BAM here it comes. There screaming, and yelling, and then the running and the hiding....

Seems doubting and testing can be dangerous.

Seems to me these people are emotionally unstable. Paranoiac even.
Afraid that you were there to expose them.
Even if they might have some Fortean "wild talent," I'd advise you to leave these people alone.
I've met similar. There's an "energy healer" in Honolulu who tells her students about the evening a "space-alien hybred" was sent to one of her meetings to threaten her. It was just little old me, and I said nothing threatening.



I still want to know what the hell happened. Did my body language give it away? Are some people so sensitive to every little thing it is like they are actually reading you? Translating it into some visual thing? And however I gave it away, how come it was translated into a vortex splaying out over my head? And how come I wasn't told about the damn vortex before that?

Certainly there were cues regarding the door jam. You're movement to and from there. But otherwise I don't know.
And it sounds like they are being selective in just what they reveal about their backgrounds to strangers. My first idea was that they just didn't want to be tagged as abnormal. From what you've posted now, it seems they have more to be secretive about.

I asked a bunch of questions, and there was no vortex mentioned. Later I find out there is a whole lot more than just colors being seen. There is an entire 3D energy field thing, with flowing lines, and vortexes, and interactions between fields, and pulsing, and some really really out there stuff.


Yes, there's a whole lore about this in the energy healing circles. Diagrams galore! But they aren't consistent in detail from school to school. It'd kind of like Reflexology: different systems that contradict each other.


it must be a common malady, this perception of colors and lights. It seems to exist in many cultures, over a very long timeline. True woo, true woo.

Common but the salient details vary from culture to culture. It's not some objective energy out there they are seeing but an illusion generated in their own nervous systems.

It's worthy of research, but it's an untouchable because its part of a woo-woo claim. I'd like to know what the actual information flow was.

Consider this, their perception of your aura changing may have had nothing to do with the magnet, just that you were standing in a door jamb.
Add to that that you moved to that location with purpose. Somewhere it had to register to them, What's with standing there?"

My opinion that its based on a subjective illusion comes from my own experience with the so-called "energy body" of Reiki, TT, Polarity Therapy, and the like. I was never able to see auras (My eyesight was too good and I hadn't used psychedelics) but I could feel different texture layers, chakras and directions of flow. But in all of that, it always seemed to me that what I was feeling was a creation of my own.

[Soapy Sam]

Robinson-
1.At what point did you inform the person in test 1 that you were using magnets? (He told you which pole was uppermost, so he knew he was looking for a magnet).
2.What does MDC stand for?
3.Why hide the magnet under the blanket? What was wrong with your pocket?
4. Could the person detect any non-magnetic object when he could not see it ( behind a screen).
4. Where did you get the magnets? (Actual source , price and dimensions , please).
5. How long have you known the two subjects?
6. Have you read the book "Lords and Ladies", by Terry Pratchett?
7. You have debunked psychics and woo for 30 years. Ever use magnets before?
Any results? Is any of this work published?

[hcmom]

...Subject was asked to not play with the magnets.

...Subject also kept pointing out poles, even when asked to stop.


Is the subject 8 years old?

[Jekyll]

Short story, it would be called clairvoyance, in this case seeing colors and light around people, animals, and objects.

Subject described a colored field around first magnet, indicated it looked different on each side. When two magnets were introduced subject became fascinated with what could only be described as the interaction between them. Subject said they both had visible colors extending out from them. (No other object displayed such a field). Subject was asked to not play with the magnets.


People and animals aren't significantly magnetic, so either he's got two overlapping super powers that he can't tell apart or your test is flawed.

In a similar vein, a compass can be the size of your little finger nail and still used to detect where a sufficiently powerful magnet is, while the subject is standing outside the room as you set up.

I'm not saying this is what happened, it seems unlikely if the subject didn't know you were going to play with magnets and wasn't eight as hcmom suggests (some of those eight year olds always seem to have bits of string and magnets, I know I did) but it might give you some idea of how tight your controls need to be. Similarly the blanket thing is not very good either, could you hide the objects under identical washed tin cans instead?

[Zep]

Subject wasn't wearing a digital watch with a backlit LCD display, by any chance?

[NiallM]

Tell them that if they have such abilities, they owe it to humanity to have them assessed and proven. This sort of stuff could potentially save lives. I don't believe a word of it myself, but that is the argument which I would use with them.

[Jeff Wagg]

Not only that, $1,000,000 could do a lot for a charity of that person's choice. Not claiming it is selfish.

[ReFLeX]

2.What does MDC stand for?


Million Dollar Challenge.

[Apathia]

Robinson,

If you can, give us a play by play. I'm not sure at this point how many subjects there actually are, two or three. Who did you contact first? Who did you do each experiment with? Who sees "Vortex" stuff? Who doesn't? And the other many fine questions posters have asked.

[robinson]

Sam,

1.At what point did you inform the person in test 1 that you were using magnets? -

It was a really informal test. After I offered a dirty duct taped flat metal object, and was told it had a very pretty field of colors, I informed them . I think now that was a mistake.

3.Why hide the magnet under the blanket? What was wrong with your pocket?

The age and sex of the subject made that not an option. There was also no planning on this, I didn't expect to have to hide anything.

4. Could the person detect any non-magnetic object when he could not see it ( behind a screen).

No. But human colors could be seen through clothing.

4. Where did you get the magnets? (Actual source , price and dimensions , please).

It was long ago, a company in Ohio, mail order. (pre-internet, I was testing magnets long before it was popular). Around $30 each, flat rectangles, about 8" X 2" X half inch thick. Poles on the flat face, not the ends. Covered in dirty duct tape, they are now used as sweepers.

5. How long have you known the two subjects?

C1 just a few months, don't really know them well.
C2 7 years.

6. Have you read the book "Lords and Ladies", by Terry Pratchett?

Never heard of it. Looks interesting.

7. You have debunked psychics and woo for 30 years. Ever use magnets before?

Not in this way. Until C1 nobody was able to see anything. Simpler methods always worked before. Magnets were used to debunk magnetic healing.

Any results? Is any of this work published?

Lots of results. Nothing published, unless you count here.

hcmom,

Nice observation. C1 was indeed very young.
NTS: can a minor take the MDC?

Hyparxis

If you can, give us a play by play.

I've been avoiding the play by play, and trying to stick with the stuff that I need help with.

I'm not sure at this point how many subjects there actually are, two or three.

In this thread, two. C1 "saw" magnets. C2 did not, but reacted to my using one as a blind test. Magnet in this case was circular speaker magnet, also very powerful.

Who did you contact first?

C2, but socially, not in regards to this. Testing was done on C1 first. C2 was an unknown for many years, in regards to woo.

Who did you do each experiment with?

C1 was hidden blanket. C2 was head magnet. But there was much more testing, these are the two test I couldn't explain. Except I already think I can, thanks to you.

Who sees "Vortex" stuff?

C2.

C1 had none of the typical woo vision, offered no explanations, theories or abilities.

Fine questions. I'm feeling very much back in the rational world after getting these questions. Testing this stuff should not be done alone.

The thing that really messed me up was the magnets with C1. The poles are on the large flat surfaces, not the ends. When C1 claimed to see the fields extending from the flat surface, rather than the ends, that was the point where things did not go as expected. If the fields were "seen" around the ends, as most expect with that shape of a magnet, end of test.

But if they did have some hidden magnet, they could have known that with ease as well. There is also the chance that since I knew everything about the magnets, I was giving cues.

Double blind, double blind, double blind, I know better than this.

[Topspy]

How soon can you re-test them? are they willing?

[robinson]

...but could the subject in C1 have been spying on you as you placed the magnets? Was there a key hole, or space underneath the door through which they could have viewed the placement?

The quickest answer I can think of to fix the magnet location dilemma is to use a much weaker magnet. If the subject can still see the field generated by say, a refrigerator magnet then it could be hidden without worrying about it being located from a distance.

My biggest problem with C1 in particular is the subjects assertion that they believed their power to be nothing special. It would be hard to go through life without once being told that no, most people don’t see glowing auras around everything. Could this have been a way to make you drop your guard, have you believe they were less ready to deceive than they actually were?


No way to spy or cheat on the placement. And when I blind tossed the magnet, nobody could know the exact location.

Small magnets didn't work, the "glow" was too faint.

I am questioning the information I recieved. Yes, it is possible I was decieved. In fact, I'm sure it is something like this.

[robinson]

How soon can you re-test them? are they willing?

C1, possibility. C2, no chance at present.

[robinson]

OK I thought about what would Randi do? A small but powerful secret magnet will work. Might have been hidden under fingernail polish, on the pointing finger.

http://www.randi.org/jr/12-29-2000.html

Or even more likely
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71087-0.html?tw=rss.index

I feel the money slipping away ...

[NiallM]

My alarms would have been ringing at all stages. If you have any reason to think that they have any powers at all, persuade them that the million could be put to great use for others if they don't want it.

I'm interested at one conflict in all of this, though. You said earlier that both are wealthy enough not to be swayed by a million, then you equivocated on the question of C1's age, rather implying that he/she was as young as was indicated by his/her behaviour. It's rather a contradiction...

[robinson]

Yes, it is a contradiction. And I can't explain it, due to what may be obvious reasons. But the essence of the statement is true, Not because they hate money, (they both have plenty), but because they don't want any publicity at all.

Plenty, in the first case, seems to be enough to be happy.

[Apathia]

Robinson,

From what you have posted, I'd say have no more to do with C2. C2 isn't a stable personality, and therefore isn't a good subject.

C1 is a minor. My alarm bells go off about the MDC and a minor.

You've said it all: "Double Blind, Double Blind, Double Blind." with more than one observer/investigator.

You may well have been set up on this one, with the principals laughing behind your back.
College friends once set up a weak skeptic with phony UFO documents and photos including some in a "alien" script they purported to have been swiped from a visiting alien. The guy fell for it though he had previously been a big time doubter of the UFO lot. It was several little things that added up for him swallowing it. The "alien: script. He's never seen such a strange writing system. (It was an alphabet created for a language project one of one of the hoaxers.) The paper was odd. (It was just some fancy stationary) The photos looked real. (They were photos of a lampshade,) But the kicker was the purple ink. "No one on earth uses purple ink." The moral of the story: Just the things that add up to make it seem a paranormal reality, are just the things that show it up as a hoax if you question your assumptions.

C1 and C2 put on a show for you. Look behind the curtain next/if opportunity you get.

[Steven Howard]

Couple of thoughts, not necessarily related:

Do either or both of them experience synesthesia?

I've read that animals like homing pigeons can sense magnetic fields. And I seem to recall once reading of an experient -- in Canada or the UK, I think -- which suggested that some humans might have a rudimentary "directional sense" that's magnetic in nature. You might want to read up on what the current scientific thinking is on the possibility of humans being able to detect strong magnetic fields through non-paranormal means.

[Beth]

From post #7 No evidence of synesthesia.

[Cuddles]

From post #7

No evidence of synesthesia.

Also from post #7

Short story, it would be called clairvoyance, in this case seeing colors and light around people, animals, and objects. Focusing on Case 1 (C1), subject did not advertise this, nor consider it unusual. Investigation found it was ignored for the most part, had existed since childhood, and C1 did not know what it was called, nor has any formal understanding of what it is supposed to mean to the paranormal believer. Subject does have some ideas, based on experience, relating certain colors with certain kinds of people.

Sounds like pretty good evidence of synesthesia to me.

[teck49]

If, this person can indeed see a magnetic field, then, they will also be able to see an electro-magnetic field. For a double-blind setup, if you build an electromagnet wired to an enclosed bank of 6 switches and have a third person wire the magnet to one of the switches determined by a roll of a die, you'd have a true double-blind experiment. It could be re run as many times as the third person is willing to rewire the magnet to a different switch. You'd just have to make sure that the person operating the switches during the experiment can't see which switch it might be wired to.

[Beth]

Also from post #7



Sounds like pretty good evidence of synesthesia to me.

Not to me. My understanding of synesthesia is that is pertains to seeing words and/or numbers in colors, not colors around people although I have heard speculation that people with such a synesthetic ability might have given rise to the concept of auras. However, I've not heard of any documented cases of synesthetes being able to see either magnetic fields or colors around people. If you know of any such cases, I'd appreciate a link or cite regarding it. I find it fascinating.

[hcmom]

My understanding of synesthesia is that is pertains to seeing words and/or numbers in colors...

The brain a terrific (maybe even terrifically freaky) thing!

[Cuddles]

Not to me. My understanding of synesthesia is that is pertains to seeing words and/or numbers in colors, not colors around people although I have heard speculation that people with such a synesthetic ability might have given rise to the concept of auras. However, I've not heard of any documented cases of synesthetes being able to see either magnetic fields or colors around people. If you know of any such cases, I'd appreciate a link or cite regarding it. I find it fascinating.

From answers.com :
syn·es·the·sia also syn·aes·the·sia (sĭn'ĭs-thē'zhə)
n.
A condition in which one type of stimulation evokes the sensation of another, as when the hearing of a sound produces the visualization of a color.

Synaesthesia is basically caused by the wires in the brain getting crossed, so the area responsible for colour gets inputs from somewhere completely unrelated. There has been a fair bit of research recently on words and numbers, so these are commonly known at the moment, but any appearence of colour due to anything other than the cones in the retina is synaesthesia.

In fact, while you say you have never heard of a synaesthete who saw colours around people, anyone who sees auras is actually a synaesthete by definition. I remember reading an article that suggested movement could create the perception of colour, giving rise to auras around living things. Since the rods and cones are in close proximity this would logically be the most common form of synaesthesia, and this appears to be the case.

I have never heard of any reliable case of humans detecting magnetic fields, and I very much doubt this is the case here. If it does somehow turn out to be true then it would not surprise me that the fields would be percieved as colour, and in fact this would also be synaesthesia.

Incidentally, I've just thought of another problem with humans detecting magnetic fields. It is not possible to detect them remotely. A magnetic field (or any other field) is measured only at the point the detector sits. At any point you can see which way is north and which is south, and by measuring lots of points you can draw the whole field. A human stood in one place may be able to tell which direction a magnet was in, but they would never be able to see the field around it without waving their head (or which ever part needed) around it.

[chran]

Back to topic:

robinson, next time you meet C1, have a magnet in your pocket and see if she can spot it. If she can, that's certainly interesting.

Of course, telling an 8-year old girl to look at your crotch might not be the best way to build trust with her parents ;)

[Liken]

I wish I knew more about the phenomenon of synaesthesia, besides that it's a legitimate phenomenon.

I remember reading an article that suggested movement could create the perception of colour, giving rise to auras around living things.

I also remember reading something that I can't locate in my messy internet bookmarks folder...dang. Anyway, on the subject of synaesthesia it was suggested that those people who claim to be able to see auras in other individuals may in fact be detecting minute differences in smell, which are then misinterpreted by the brain as visual input. After all, most living things have powerful odors, and humans are high on the scale of smelly animals. Sounds kinda shaky to me, but it would be interesting to study.

Also, If I'm not mistaken the most common images which produce instances of synaesthesia in these people are letters of the alphabet and numbers. I'm studying Japanese right now and I can only imagine what a wacky adventure it would be reading Japanese if certain characters produced corresponding colors. Trippy.

Anyway, good luck with the treasure hunt Robinson.

Liken

[Soapy Sam]

Robinson- to save you the time.Terry Pratchett is a phenomenally best selling English writer of comic SF/ fantasy . His "Discworld" series is set on a disc shaped flat world where magic is an everyday reality.

In "Lords and Ladies" , Elves from a parallel universe invade the Discworld .
Their vision is synaesthetically sensitive to magnetic fields which they see as swirling colours. Iron , unsurprisingly, blinds and disorientates them .

(If a human could visually perceive a magnetic field, he should of course , see it everywhere. Car alternators, electric motors, power lines. It would be a dazzling fairyland.)

The novels are hilarious and a send up of "wooist" fantasy in general. Many regulars here are Pratchett fans and some avatars are artwork based on the novels. As some characters develop over several novels, I would not advise "Lords and Ladies" as the best starting point. The earliest of the series is "The Colour of Magic"

[robinson]

Hello. I'm not ignoring anyone, but busy, including a lot of research. For those interested in synesthesia, this site seems to be the mother lode.

http://www.doctorhugo.org/synaesthesia

Commentary about young girl who did not tell people about colors.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-10/ucl-mfa101804.php
Documentation - http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/Ward-04.pdf

There is a lot of information out there. Looks like it is a rare form of synesthesia after all, perhaps in both cases. That doesn't explain the magnetic stuff however,


Incidentally, I've just thought of another problem with humans detecting magnetic fields. It is not possible to detect them remotely. A magnetic field (or any other field) is measured only at the point the detector sits. At any point you can see which way is north and which is south, and by measuring lots of points you can draw the whole field. A human stood in one place may be able to tell which direction a magnet was in, but they would never be able to see the field around it without waving their head (or which ever part needed) around it.

Cuddles,

I disagree on the remote detection. I invented a method where anyone can see magnetic fields, as well as watch the interactions with other magnets and metals. But it is done with technology, science, nothing mystical about it.

This doesn't explain how a person could do it without technology, but it is possible to "view" magnetic fields. In real time.

And no, this is not published (yet), nor am I aware of anyone else having done this.

[robinson]

Robinson- to save you the time.Terry Pratchett is a phenomenally best selling English writer of comic SF/ fantasy . His "Discworld" series is set on a disc shaped flat world where magic is an everyday reality.

Ah yes, tried reading that long ago. Never could suspend disbelief on the magic stuff long enough to enjoy that, or any other "magic" based fiction.

(If a human could visually perceive a magnetic field, he should of course , see it everywhere. Car alternators, electric motors, power lines. It would be a dazzling fairyland.)


My thought as well.

[robinson]

If, this person can indeed see a magnetic field, then, they will also be able to see an electro-magnetic field. For a double-blind setup, if you build an electromagnet wired to an enclosed bank of 6 switches and have a third person wire the magnet to one of the switches determined by a roll of a die, you'd have a true double-blind experiment. It could be re run as many times as the third person is willing to rewire the magnet to a different switch. You'd just have to make sure that the person operating the switches during the experiment can't see which switch it might be wired to.

I thought about the same sort of experiment, but with C2. If, during a double blind test, C2 could tell when an electromagnet, hidden over the head of test subjects, was on or off, based on some sort of disturbance in the "vortex over the head", that would be evidence of some sort of unknown ability.

After considering that the ability is some sort of supersensitive emotional synaesthesia, it would still be strange if C2 could tell the magnet was turned on or off. This would mean the magnet was influencing the subject being viewed somehow, which is also considered woo.

The problem of testing some ability like this, even when we discount any possibility of some invisible field, seems complicated. While not paranormal, it is strange.

[Cuddles]

Cuddles,

I disagree on the remote detection. I invented a method where anyone can see magnetic fields, as well as watch the interactions with other magnets and metals. But it is done with technology, science, nothing mystical about it.

This doesn't explain how a person could do it without technology, but it is possible to "view" magnetic fields. In real time.

And no, this is not published (yet), nor am I aware of anyone else having done this.

How? Any technology like this would be a massive breakthrough for anyone working with magents, and yet it is not used anywhere. How can you manage this when experts have failed for centuries?

[Bradk3]

This is fascinating! I'm not sure if anything paranormal is going on, but I'm very interested in any future results you get testing C1.

As far as a protocol goes, why not dispense with blankets and magnets hidden in pockets and just go with a series of identical boxes or something. Line up the boxes, have a third party hide a magnet under one of the boxes and see if C1 picks the right box. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It's simple and should be fairly fool-proof.

Again, I'm interested in seeing what happens with this.

[robinson]

How? Any technology like this would be a massive breakthrough for anyone working with magents, and yet it is not used anywhere. How can you manage this when experts have failed for centuries?

You know, I wondered the same thing. Before I posted that I did a search of about a thousand web pages looking to see if anyone else had discovered the method. Can't find any evidence that it is being used, but I do laugh at some of the graphics people use to explain magnetic fields. I came upon it almost by accident, while I was investigating something else.

Like many things, it can't be patented, because it is a method, not an invention. If you can tell me how to make some cash off the idea, or even get credit for it, I would publish in a heartbeat.

Maybe I should show Randi.

BTW, I am not talking about anything like this
http://www.livescience.com/imageoftheday/siod_051117.html

I'm talking about realtime viewing.

[Cuddles]

You know, I wondered the same thing. Before I posted that I did a search of about a thousand web pages looking to see if anyone else had discovered the method. Can't find any evidence that it is being used, but I do laugh at some of the graphics people use to explain magnetic fields. I came upon it almost by accident, while I was investigating something else.

Like many things, it can't be patented, because it is a method, not an invention. If you can tell me how to make some cash off the idea, or even get credit for it, I would publish in a heartbeat.

Maybe I should show Randi.

BTW, I am not talking about anything like this
http://www.livescience.com/imageoftheday/siod_051117.html

I'm talking about realtime viewing.

If you truly have discovered this then publish it and your name will be remembered for centuries. As it is I will merely say "Bollocks". Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Steven Howard]

Like many things, it can't be patented, because it is a method, not an invention.

Methods and processes can be patented. Consider software patents, for example.

For entertainment's sake, you might want to look up US Patent #6368227, which is also a patented method.

[NiallM]

If you truly have discovered this then publish it and your name will be remembered for centuries. As it is I will merely say "Bollocks". Feel free to prove me wrong.

Of course he can't give any details now until it's patented. :Huh:

[robinson]

If you truly have discovered this then publish it and your name will be remembered for centuries.

Evidence? I doubt the validity of that statement. I also know, from experience, that it is more likely someone will "apropriate" the discovery.

As it is I will merely say "Bollocks". Feel free to prove me wrong.

Are you sceptical that it can be done? Or that I did it? The two are not the same. Its the "free" part of proving you wrong that makes me pause. If this is worth something, and I doubt it is, I want to find out first.

Yeah yeah, I know that puts me right in the same camp as every nutcase who claims to have invented something really cool, but won't tell anyone how, or patent it, to keep the idea from being stolen. Like Shea Cockrum, who thinks that extracting water from air is the solution to the world's water shortage.

Or, maybe in this camp - http://desertgardens.suite101.com/blogs.cfm#invention_takes_water_from_air
"...the company will not disclose its proprietary methods...", those bastards. Come up with a method to make water from air, and then refuse to tell how they did it. Some people. All they want is to make a buck.
:i:

[JoeTheJuggler]

Robinson, as you said, this wasn't a well controlled test--so I don't think those of us who weren't there will be able to see how you were tricked. Since your subject is reluctant to repeat the stunt with anyone else, I'd say he or she is simply heeding the magician's advice, "Never repeat the trick."

I can imagine several ways the trick was done--but again, I wasn't there, and conditions weren't controlled, so who knows.

By the way, maybe I misread your account, but it sounded like you said the subject pointed out the location of a hidden magnet in a darkened room. If the room was dark, how did you see the subject point to the hidden object?

I have to assume now that the room wasn't totally dark. Are you certain you weren't giving body language clues (like that quick glance in the direction of the hidden object when the subject first enters)? Or even a little "Clever Hans" sort of thing--like your body tensing up as the subject got "warmer"?

[Cuddles]

Evidence? I doubt the validity of that statement. I also know, from experience, that it is more likely someone will "apropriate" the discovery.

You know from experience? How many other world-changing discoveries have you made?

Are you sceptical that it can be done? Or that I did it? The two are not the same. Its the "free" part of proving you wrong that makes me pause. If this is worth something, and I doubt it is, I want to find out first.

Both. It is not possible, therefore you haven't done it. You want to know if it's worth something before you tell anyone what it is. Doesn't this seem just a little bit impossible to you?

[casebro]

How about several magnets hidden in a room? See how many the subject can spot?

[teck49]

It is not possible, therefore you haven't done it.


No offense buddy, but if we all had that attitude, the world would still be flat & we'd be burning witches for suggesting that lightning could be harnessed in wires.

Science cannot progress beyond our point to test a hypothesis with current technology. But that doesn't mean those things won't exist until we can test for them, e.g. electricity, strong force, weak force, infrared light.

If you want to see how impossible it is, just slap a couple of big ceramic magnets up against the glass of your monitor & play around with them. I doubt that this is what ROBINSON is talking about, but you'll still be viewing the effects & interactions of a magnetic field in real time.

So maybe he is a troll blowing smoke up our arses; maybe he's got an actual idea. Saying it's impossible without any evidence is just as bad as saying that it's real.... that you "believe" in it without any proof. That is what science is for.

(Stepping off of soap box)

We've gotten way off the original thread though. Speaking of science, any plans to test C1 or C2 any time soon? If they don't want fame, I'm betting some sort of guarantee of anonymity could be put in place.

[dogjones]

You say there was no evidence of synaesthesia. How did you determine this?

[NiallM]

No offense buddy, but if we all had that attitude, the world would still be flat & we'd be burning witches for suggesting that lightning could be harnessed in wires.

Science cannot progress beyond our point to test a hypothesis with current technology. But that doesn't mean those things won't exist until we can test for them, e.g. electricity, strong force, weak force, infrared light.

If you want to see how impossible it is, just slap a couple of big ceramic magnets up against the glass of your monitor & play around with them. I doubt that this is what ROBINSON is talking about, but you'll still be viewing the effects & interactions of a magnetic field in real time.

So maybe he is a troll blowing smoke up our arses; maybe he's got an actual idea. Saying it's impossible without any evidence is just as bad as saying that it's real.... that you "believe" in it without any proof. That is what science is for.

(Stepping off of soap box)

We've gotten way off the original thread though. Speaking of science, any plans to test C1 or C2 any time soon? If they don't want fame, I'm betting some sort of guarantee of anonymity could be put in place.

There's no anonymity in the MDC; that's explicit.

[Cuddles]

If you want to see how impossible it is, just slap a couple of big ceramic magnets up against the glass of your monitor & play around with them. I doubt that this is what ROBINSON is talking about, but you'll still be viewing the effects & interactions of a magnetic field in real time.

If I put magents on my monitor I will see the effect the magnets have on the motion of the electrons. From this it might be possible to work out the field at various points, but even this would be difficult since all you can really see is the total effect of all the magnetic field that the electron has passed through. In any case, this is still just measuring the field at each point by observing the effect on something at that point. Which is exactly what I said. If you want to measure the magnetic field at a point, you have to put something there. You cannot see a magnetic field at a distance. Of course, if Robinson has just done something like you suggest then it is possible to see the magnetic field, but if this is the case then he hasn't done anything new and has no reason to be secretive about it.

No offense buddy, but if we all had that attitude, the world would still be flat & we'd be burning witches for suggesting that lightning could be harnessed in wires.

Science cannot progress beyond our point to test a hypothesis with current technology. But that doesn't mean those things won't exist until we can test for them, e.g. electricity, strong force, weak force, infrared light.

So maybe he is a troll blowing smoke up our arses; maybe he's got an actual idea. Saying it's impossible without any evidence is just as bad as saying that it's real.... that you "believe" in it without any proof. That is what science is for.

No. We understand magnetic fields. If you don't put something at a point, you can't measure the field there. Simple as that. There is a very big difference between saying something is wrong when we understand why it is wrong and saying something is wrong when we don't fully understand it. When infrared light was unknown, no-one laughed at the idea because it wasn't understood. If someone claimed to be able to see through a mile of steel with infrared light they would be laughed at because we understand it and know that this can't happen.

[Pup]

If I put magents on my monitor I will see the effect the magnets have on the motion of the electrons. (snip) No. We understand magnetic fields. If you don't put something at a point, you can't measure the field there. Simple as that.

Can't say I know much of anything about magnetic fields, so this may be irrelevant. But we're not talking about seeing magnetic fields in a vaccum, so there is something there, right? Air.

Now I still don't see what effect a magnetic field would have on air, but it seems that would be the issue, and not the fact that there's "nothing there."

[robinson]

By the way, maybe I misread your account, but it sounded like you said the subject pointed out the location of a hidden magnet in a darkened room. If the room was dark, how did you see the subject point to the hidden object?

I have to assume now that the room wasn't totally dark. Are you certain you weren't giving body language clues (like that quick glance in the direction of the hidden object when the subject first enters)? Or even a little "Clever Hans" sort of thing--like your body tensing up as the subject got "warmer"?

The room was not pitch black. It was just an attempt to make sure there were no visual clues fron the magnet. A dark, folded blanket in a dark room is very hard to see any detail in.

I don't know how it was done, and at present I have no chance to try it again. But this could have been done with some technological trick, so it means little. Also, despite my attempt to double blind things, by tossing the magent, it is possible I could tell where it landed. Yes, the Clever Hans effect is very possible. In both cases I have talked about.

[robinson]

How about several magnets hidden in a room? See how many the subject can spot?

Yes, I thought about that. This would work for C2 as well, but only if I didn't know where they were.

[robinson]

No offense buddy, but if we all had that attitude, the world would still be flat & we'd be burning witches for suggesting that lightning could be harnessed in wires.

Science cannot progress beyond our point to test a hypothesis with current technology. But that doesn't mean those things won't exist until we can test for them, e.g. electricity, strong force, weak force, infrared light.

If you want to see how impossible it is, just slap a couple of big ceramic magnets up against the glass of your monitor & play around with them. I doubt that this is what ROBINSON is talking about, but you'll still be viewing the effects & interactions of a magnetic field in real time.

So maybe he is a troll blowing smoke up our arses; maybe he's got an actual idea. Saying it's impossible without any evidence is just as bad as saying that it's real.... that you "believe" in it without any proof. That is what science is for.

(Stepping off of soap box)

We've gotten way off the original thread though. Speaking of science, any plans to test C1 or C2 any time soon? If they don't want fame, I'm betting some sort of guarantee of anonymity could be put in place.

Thanks for the input. This discussion has led me to many interesting subjects of research. Yes, Cathode Ray tubes make a most interestng device to observe magnetism. This is, of course, well know. In fact, magentism is how Cathode ray rubes are used to display information. Very impressive however, that you brought that up. After extensive searching, I found not only that method, but two other methods being used. To view magnetic fields. Damn. There goes any chance of fortune or fame.

heh


As to C1, C2, no plans to test at present. But I am preparing another test. And may have another subject. My attention is in another arena at the moment. The subject of synesthesia (http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/synesthesia/).

"Science cannot progress beyond our point to test a hypothesis with current technology. But that doesn't mean those things won't exist until we can test for them, e.g. electricity, strong force, weak force, infrared light."

Thinking about that, I wondered if Einstein considered science to have advanced when he proposed his theories, which were not tested until many years later, and by others. Did he worry what someone thought about his theory of gravity warping space-time, and bending light?

Oh damn, now I am going to be accused of comparing myself to Einstein!:wackywink:

heh

Devices to record, measure, or study invisible forces, have always been fascinating. And some of the most astounding discoveries have come about from just observing something strange happening, while you are looking for something else.

As to anonymity, looks like that question is answered. Pity.

[robinson]

You say there was no evidence of synaesthesia. How did you determine this?

Just questions. Since this discussion however, I have found a real test for it.

[robinson]

If I put magents on my monitor I will see the effect the magnets have on the motion of the electrons. From this it might be possible to work out the field at various points, but even this would be difficult since all you can really see is the total effect of all the magnetic field that the electron has passed through.

Ummm... wrong. But maybe if you actually try it, you will see why.

In any case, this is still just measuring the field at each point by observing the effect on something at that point. Which is exactly what I said. If you want to measure the magnetic field at a point, you have to put something there. You cannot see a magnetic field at a distance.

Hmmm..wrong again. Do you know how a CAT scan works? Or an MRI? It is not points, but planes that are recorded. And of course you can SEE fields at a distance! There is no other way to view them!

heh

Of course, if Robinson has just done something like you suggest then it is possible to see the magnetic field, but if this is the case then he hasn't done anything new and has no reason to be secretive about it.

Yeah, well if robinson had just done that, he would be an idiot.

No. We understand magnetic fields. If you don't put something at a point, you can't measure the field there. Simple as that.

Oh nonsense. I'm talking about viewing, not measuring field strength. Of course, seeing the field also gives you a good idea of the strength. But this isn't about measuring, it is about observing.

Having found a website where they not only know about this, they have movies of it, I don't think there is any chance of fame or fortune. As I suspected, of course somebody else discoverd the same things I did.

I'm not going to explain it here however. No reason to litter the MDC forum with a never ending fight over magnetism.

[Apathia]

Good show, Robinson! And thanks for bringing back Mr. Poe!

I'm not around people who claim to see auras as I was a few years ago, but if I were, I'd test with magnets as per some of the fine suggestions that have been made in this thread. Not expecting a finder's fee though. I'd be satisfied to find nothing in this case.

[robinson]

Hey there Hyparxis!

Synesthesia is most fascinating. There are entire threads about it elsewhere, people who have it discussing it. Not in a woo way, but just about what it is like.

The ability to instantly translate subtle cues, emotional markers, facial expressions, body language, maybe even scents, into a visual display, is simply amazing.

I can understand how someone who has lived with this all their life, would come to accept it as normal, maybe even use it to make decisions about people. After all, we all do the same thing on a much lower level of awareness about others.

It could well explain the worldwide belief in auras. If the stats can be trusted, 1 in 2000 has synesthesia. Which seems like a huge number to me.

If this has always been the case, then there is indeed something strange going on, and always has been.

[Cuddles]

Ummm... wrong. But maybe if you actually try it, you will see why.

Really? You think that the magents don't affect the electrons? Or that they magically make a picture on the screen without any particles being present?

Hmmm..wrong again. Do you know how a CAT scan works? Or an MRI? It is not points, but planes that are recorded. And of course you can SEE fields at a distance! There is no other way to view them!

Yes I do, but apparently you don't. MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging - the name kind of gives it away) works by exciting protons, mainly the ones in water, with a magnetic field. Their motion produces their own magnetic field, which in turn excites particles in the scanner. From the field induced in the scanner, the position of the protons can be dertermined. No protons, no detection of magnetic field. A plane is just lots of points stuck together.

How exactly do you think you see fields at a distance? Could you give an example? Can you see electricmagnetic fields without a photon entering your eye? Can you see gravity?

Yeah, well if robinson had just done that, he would be an idiot.

So what do you think you've done. If you won't explain then I can only assume that you do not understand what you are talking about, as is apparent from your complete misunderstanding of MRI.

Oh nonsense. I'm talking about viewing, not measuring field strength. Of course, seeing the field also gives you a good idea of the strength. But this isn't about measuring, it is about observing.

What do you think viewing is? If you're not measuring if there is a field there then you are not measuring anything at all. If you are measuring if there's a field there then you are measuring it's strength.

Having found a website where they not only know about this, they have movies of it, I don't think there is any chance of fame or fortune. As I suspected, of course somebody else discoverd the same things I did.

I'm not going to explain it here however. No reason to litter the MDC forum with a never ending fight over magnetism.

So you now admit that it isn't anything new, and yet you refuse to discuss it or even post links because... why? Are you afraid that I was right all along? Or do you not want me to learn where I was wrong? It will only be a never ending fight is you continue refusing to actually show what you are talking about. If you show what you, or others, have done, I can either see where I went wrong or point out your error. This is how discussions work.

[Unnamed]

Oh nonsense. I'm talking about viewing, not measuring field strength. Of course, seeing the field also gives you a good idea of the strength. But this isn't about measuring, it is about observing.

Having found a website where they not only know about this, they have movies of it, I don't think there is any chance of fame or fortune. As I suspected, of course somebody else discoverd the same things I did.

I'm not going to explain it here however. No reason to litter the MDC forum with a never ending fight over magnetism.
Cool! Do you still have the link? If you don't want to litter here, please post in the Science forum. Thanks.

[Apathia]

Hey there Hyparxis!

Synesthesia is most fascinating. There are entire threads about it elsewhere, people who have it discussing it. Not in a woo way, but just about what it is like.

The ability to instantly translate subtle cues, emotional markers, facial expressions, body language, maybe even scents, into a visual display, is simply amazing.

I can understand how someone who has lived with this all their life, would come to accept it as normal, maybe even use it to make decisions about people. After all, we all do the same thing on a much lower level of awareness about others.

It could well explain the worldwide belief in auras. If the stats can be trusted, 1 in 2000 has synesthesia. Which seems like a huge number to me.

If this has always been the case, then there is indeed something strange going on, and always has been.

I have some pieces of opinion on how this relates to the world of woo-woo.
Intuition is often the unconscious sizing up perceptual cues and delivering a product before the conscious mind analyzes the details it is directly aware of. Sometimes it's a hit. Most often we are asking, "What gave me that impression?"

Some people depend more on the unconscious processing of impression and intuition. Such a personality who also has a variety of synesthesia might develop and use that as a kind of code or language of feeding intuitional content back to immediate perception.

I have a background in what's generally called "energy work" or "energy healing." When I was frequently practicing this, I couldn't see the so-called aura, but I could feel different layers of texture in the so-called energy field around the body. I personally experimented with magnets and wires to see if I was able to detect electromagnetic energy. I wasn't. So I came to the working conclusion that the "aura" I was feeling wasn't something objectively there but a creation of my own as the intuitional shortcut above.

To a small extent most people from time to time translate an impression into a physical feeling. Goosebumps is the most pervasive example. The uncanny is translated into a feeling of cold. (the goosebump mechanism in humans is a vestigial of the reaction in which furry animals raise their hair follicles to create more insulation.)

People I know who claim to see auras in the energy work context believe they have a useful and accurate tool for assessing their clients state of emotional, mental, and physical being. One sees little images in the auras of her clients that she "plucks" out in a so-called "psychic surgery." Telling her and others that these were intuitional content and couldn't always be accepted on their own, got me bad vibes thrown in my direction. This sort of thing works best when the questioning, anaylsing mind is put on hold. Something I can't do for more than a few minutes and feel to be dubious anyway.

[Soapy Sam]

This is the second thread recently to refer to the exotic phenomenon of "Magentism". It may be the new "Flourescence".


When I was six i had a device for viewing magnetic fields.
You can make one with two sheets of thin perspex, about 1/16 inch apart. Seal round the edges with a bead of silicone, after part filling the airgap with iron filings. Hours of amusement for $1.

If you paint a face on the bottom sheet, you can use the iron to put hair, a beard and a moustache on it, using a magnet as a pencil.

[robinson]

heh

[robinson]

Cool! Do you still have the link? If you don't want to litter here, please post in the Science forum. Thanks.

OK, but what thread? There is an old one about magnetism. Or should we start yet another NEW thread?

:i:

[Apathia]

OK, but what thread? There is an old one about magnetism. Or should we start yet another NEW thread?

:i:

Make a new thread in the Science and Tech Section titled "Viewing Magnetic Fields," so the peanut gallary won't miss it. Include illustrations.

[robinson]

Make a new thread in the Science and Tech Section titled "Viewing Magnetic Fields," so the peanut gallary won't miss it. Include illustrations.

Hmmm... I don't think so. First, the peanut gallery holds little interest for me. Second, if I start a thread, I feel an obligation to it, a magnetic attraction if you will, :duel - and get drawn into never ending conflicts with idiots, a bad thing even on a good day.

Another thing, I'm still working my way through every thread here on Magnets, Magnetism, Electromagnetism, Coulomb's law, Gauss's law, Magnetostatics, Ampere's law, Magnetic moments, Electrodynamics, Electromagnetic induction, that sort of thing. As well as brushing up on Maxwell's equations.

While reviewing my studies on the Electromagnetic field, Electromagnetic radiation, Resonant cavities and Waveguides, I found some old homework, and some current research, as well as working out the details, perhaps a new theory about photon frequencies and movement of radiating bodies. X-rays and magnetism, light bending magnetic studies, most interesting stuff.

But here, it is sort of a time to effort equation. What would it accomplish to start yet another thread, which would last about a day? Based on experience, narrow minded idiots would argue against Maxwells's change to Ampere's law, and say it can't be called displacement current at all. Is it really worth anything to try and explain something here?

I'm not kidding, even if I am funny. You can post endless evidence, explain everything, add diagrams and pictures and equations, and after it all is there, (and it is of course, all over the place), some annoying idiot will state, "There is no evidence for that".

Or, "That proves nothing", or "Nonsense. There is nothing to show that is true.", or some other crapload of woo like reasoning. Anything but actually trying for themselves to find out if it works or not. Or at the very least, following a few links and doing some research.

And while I'm sure many intelligent reasonable people read and may agree, it is the idiots that will post without end, drawing the weak and inexperienced into a never ending virtual fight over nothing.

Not worth it.

TMOT, I know from long experience. Even when some other astute mind chimes in, as we have seen, the idiots don't learn, and it all seems a timesink.

[robinson]

OK having got that spew off my virtual chest, back to the imporatnt subject, cashing a $50,000 dollar check.

heh

Based on direct and indirect research stimulated by some of you, yes you, I may have my own MDC to submit to the esteemed Randi, an/or the JREF, as it may be.

The problem is, I know it is actually scientific in nature, even if it seems woo, and due to the extended nature and requirements of getting to an actual test, as well as the complete and total loss of privacy that just starting the application entails, why bother?

The intelligent Randi would no doubt do the research ahead of time, to discover how such a test would lead to parting with a large sum of money, and declare it not woo. No surprise there, I would do the same thing.

Even as I type those words, I can hear the responses. "No no! Even if we don't know how it is done, even if it is scientific, physics based, if it is claimed to be woo when you apply, it still counts!".

:D

Ahhh... but isn't that the rub? Who decides what is woo, and who decides what is proof?

[Apathia]

If it's even a marginal tech breakthrough, it has no business here. it goes to peer review and journals. The JREF is not peer review. I don't think you can even get a jury of your own peers here. I see your point of not getting into it with the peanut gallery. But I think at least one member, named Cuddles, deserves some clarification of at least link, because it seems he has a misunderstanding of what you are talking about that is turning it into some kind of esoteric woo-woo. One picture would reign in the paranormal speculations.

[chran]

Hmmm... I don't think so. No, of course you don't. Sheesh, every time someone is asked to produce evidence they refuse to do it.

I'm done with you.

[Apathia]

OMG! I must have been asleep!
I missed the title of your last post:

Electromagnetism in the rest frame of the luminiferous aether


If that isn't a joke, then, well, never mind. Kudos to Cuddles for spotting that you were making an outlandish claim. I just thought you had some cute little method of viewing a magnetic field in action. This is quite the topic and worthy pf a great deal of forum fun if you began a thread about it.

[Unnamed]

Hmmm... I don't think so. First, the peanut gallery holds little interest for me. Second, if I start a thread, I feel an obligation to it and get drawn into never ending conflicts with idiots, a bad thing even on a good day.
We have people with outstanding understanding of physics around. That could be useful, even if "idiots" show up.

Since you won't, I'll offer not one, but two:
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev28-4/text/electron.htm (see the last image)
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=APPLAB000067000009001185000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

Both are at the microscale, both involve using electron beams. Do you have a method that works at the macro scale? Better yet, do you have a method that could plausibly explain your experiments?

But here, it is sort of a time to effort equation. What would it accomplish to start yet another thread, which would last about a day?
You can learn a lot in a day, if the right person posts there. People searching for it would find it here.

I'm not kidding, even if I am funny. You can post endless evidence, explain everything, add diagrams and pictures and equations, and after it all is there, (and it is of course, all over the place), some annoying idiot will state, "There is no evidence for that".
Last time I saw this pattern, someone was proposing a perpetual motion machine (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65297). He was wrong. People explained why. Do you have a better example?

[robinson]

"From a long view of the history of mankind - seen from, say, ten thousand years from now - there can be little doubt that the most significant event of the 19th century will be judged as Maxwell's discovery of the laws of electrodynamics."

Richard P. Feynman

If it's even a marginal tech breakthrough, it has no business here. it goes to peer review and journals. The JREF is not peer review. I don't think you can even get a jury of your own peers here. I see your point of not getting into it with the peanut gallery.

I'm still doing research on this, as well as some new experiments. Your point is valid about no business here. There are however, many physics and science based forums where magnetism and other subjects are debated, researched, and discussed, in reasonable and logical ways. I'm also waiting to talk at length with someone who actually has an advanced degree in these matters. It may seem strange, but I know quite a few rocket scientist. An interent forum about the MDC is a very strange place to get into a discussion of physics.

But I think at least one member, named Cuddles, deserves some clarification of at least link, because it seems he has a misunderstanding of what you are talking about that is turning it into some kind of esoteric woo-woo. One picture would reign in the paranormal speculations.

Reading somebody flatly claim something is impossible, does little to advance either discussion, or science. I'm not going to debate with anyone who doesn't understand basic science. A fools game. He may have tried to turn it into woo, but that doesn't effect anything.

...
Electromagnetism in the rest frame of the luminiferous aether

If that isn't a joke, then, well, never mind.

That is from James Clerk Maxwell, from his second paper On Physical Lines of Force published in 1862. He stopped using ether by the time his book Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism was published in 1873. But it is very interesting. Based on his knowledge at the time, he postulated there was a medium for waves to travel through. He was a genius.

Or as Einstein said about his work:

"This change in the conception of reality is the most profound and the most fruitful that physics has experienced since the time of Newton."

Using it as a post title was both a humorous tip of the hat to Maxwell, as well as a hope that someone reading here was intimate with Maxwell, as well as schooled in Physics, especially magnetism. Of course, there is still time.

While Maxwell's theory was nothing if not revolutionary, leading to the special theory of relativity, it was largely ignored for twenty years. He didn't even live to see it confirmed by Hertz.

I have a great deal of respect for Maxwell, and many others. One can only imagine if they posted their ideas here. Not only would they be crucified by thousands of posts, deriding and sarcastic, it is doubtful anyone would ever get it. A huge waste of time. As you pointed out earlier, not the place for it.

...I just thought you had some cute little method of viewing a magnetic field in action. This is quite the topic and worthy of a great deal of forum fun if you began a thread about it.

Its not cute, and its not little. There is expense, and it can get quite messy. And it requires technology. After reading today, I feel no compulsion to wade into any quagmire over it. Somebody else already posted links to two other methods used, neither of which I was aware of.

OK, maybe it would be interesting. It already is actually.





P.S. The post title for this one is about Maxwell's paper On Faraday's Lines of Force. 1856

[robinson]

We have people with outstanding understanding of physics around. That could be useful, even if "idiots" show up.

I'm starting to lean that way. I do use the ignore feature here, a blessing, until people start quoting the ignored blather. Then it gets annoying.

Since you won't, I'll offer not one, but two:
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev28-4/text/electron.htm (see the last image)
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=APPLAB000067000009001185000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

Both are at the microscale, both involve using electron beams. Do you have a method that works at the macro scale? Better yet, do you have a method that could plausibly explain your experiments?

Thanks for the links. Interesting. I stated in clear terms I can show anyone magnetic fields, how they interact, how they work. It isn't even that hard. Yes, at macro scales. There is ample documentation of how this works. As I said, it isn't even a secret. It is however, too expensive for most physics classrooms.

You can learn a lot in a day, if the right person posts there. People searching for it would find it here.

Last time I saw this pattern, someone was proposing a perpetual motion machine (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65297). He was wrong. People explained why. Do you have a better example?

I'm not interested in anyone telling me why something they have not done will not work. What I am doing, is working on a way to show you just what I am talking about, rather than tell you. But my life does not revolve around this issue, or what you think of it. If I come up with a way to make money off this, I certainly won't be publishing trade secrets here.

heh

Ahhh! Just as I suspected, thread derailment! THREAD DERAILMENT!

:i:

[Unnamed]

There is expense, and it can get quite messy. And it requires technology. After reading today, I feel no compulsion to wade into any quagmire over it.

Interesting. I stated in clear terms I can show anyone magnetic fields, how they interact, how they work. It isn't even that hard. Yes, at macro scales. There is ample documentation of how this works. As I said, it isn't even a secret. It is however, too expensive for most physics classrooms.
With that clarified, I will leave the thread if you tell me whether you actually did it sometime in the past, regardless of how messy and expensive it was.

[Apathia]

OK. I'm back to my original opinion. You've got nothing woo-woo up your sleeve.
Funny though, how even ordinary text book science can sometimes be taken as woo-woo in these boards. People mean well. They are just skeptical at anything they aren't personally acquainted with or isn't said in familiar terms. Me too. I almost thought you were going to take us back to the Aether days of yore.

Good luck on your invention!

[Unnamed]

One more link, still microscopic, for the curious.

Magneto-optics (http://www2.polito.it/ricerca/superconductivity/MO/index1.htm)

[robinson]

With that clarified, I will leave the thread if you tell me whether you actually did it sometime in the past, regardless of how messy and expensive it was.

I don't want you to "leave"! You are one of the most informed and interesting people I have run across yet. Those links are fantastic.

I'm trying to approach this sort of like the MDC. I'm going to demonstrate and research and test, with highly trained, logical minded, sceptical scientist with hard physics backgrounds. If they tell me its crap, not real, I will be happy to tell you what the procedure is, what it requires, and how come I was wrong.

Not doing the required work BEFORE trying to convince somebody, is a woo sort of procedure. Randi and the JREF ask people to demonstrate to three scientific people BEFORE filing a claim. I think that is wise. It avoids annoying people with nonsense. This same concept is valid for any other claim that seems woo.

I didn't plan on mentioning the magnetic thing here. It probably was not wise. Time will tell.

[robinson]

Good luck on your invention!

Thanks oh Hyparxis one. I'm not kidding when I say it has been done by others. Unnamed will probably find it online long before I demonstrate anything. It is still way cool however.

[Unnamed]

Thanks oh Hyparxis one. I'm not kidding when I say it has been done by others. Unnamed will probably find it online long before I demonstrate anything. It is still way cool however.
Thanks, but I will wait for your demonstration. Like Hyparxis, I'm convinced that it could work, and that's enough for me.

I'll "leave" in the sense that I won't derail the thread with this subject anymore. Let's go back to your MDC project.

[ehbowen]

Gentlemen:

I would be very very careful exactly what you say to robinson from here on out. He has made juicy-sounding claims, but has consistently backpedaled whenever challenged on the question, "Where's the beef?"

I would like to think that his stories are plausible. However, what seems most likely to me is that he is in the process of pumping the members of this forum for all of the potential ways in which cheating might be apprehended, with the unstated goal of using that information to prep a test subject accordingly in order to win the million dollar challenge by deception.

FYI, I am no skeptic; I am a fundamentalist Christian and I would very much like to see the million won. But when it is won, I want to see it won fair and square--not by trickery.

[teck49]

However, what seems most likely to me is that he is in the process of pumping the members of this forum.


As of late there is just really something wrong with a member of any denomination of the Christian faith referring to "pumping" people. Please use any other word you choose, but give that one a rest.

[rjh01]

As of late there is just really something wrong with a member of any denomination of the Christian faith referring to "pumping" people. Please use any other word you choose, but give that one a rest.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Can you explain this please? Remember you are talking to people in other country who may not know what has happened in your country.

I have heard of the phrase 'pumping people for information.' Never heard of any negative connotations. It is even in my dictionary.

[teck49]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Can you explain this please?


Forget about it. It was a "tongue in cheek" comment.

[robinson]

http://exchristian.net/2/2006/02/church-founder-sentenced-to-20-years.html

[robinson]

http://www.jefflindsay.com/snippets/gay-priests.shtml

[robinson]

... all of the potential ways in which cheating might be apprehended, with the unstated goal of using that information to prep a test subject accordingly in order to win the million dollar challenge by deception.

At first I thought that was a wild attempt at trolling, but it does bring up an issue. I never thought of actually trying to deceive Randi or the JREF, with an economic motive. Maybe others have, but I find no threads here that ever discussed this. Giving it some thought yesterday, the first thing I came up with would be mind reading, thought transference. Two people with a real bent for collecting a million dollars, and the ability to spend some money, and have some messed up surgery done, might have micro transmitters and receivers implanted surgically, and use sub-vocalization to transmit information during a test.

But if this was possible, and was done, I imagine Randi would use a metal detector. or some other check, after a preliminary test was passed. Because it is what I would do. To rule out techno cheating.

No doubt with the advances in technology someday science will seem like woo, especially when a million dollars is at stake. I trust Randi and other skeptics will be on the ball and aware of such devices, in order to avoid such a scam.

After all. Randi did catch a Christian minister using radio technology to deceive the faithful.

FYI, I am no skeptic; I am a fundamentalist Christian and I would very much like to see the million won. But when it is won, I want to see it won fair and square--not by trickery.

Why do you want to see the MDC won? Its not going to be, and it certainly won't be by the return of Jesus or some other religious claptrap.

[Loss Leader]

This sounds suspiciously like a magic trick. has anyone heard of a magician doing anything similar?

[personable]

Why do you want to see the MDC won? Its not going to be, and it certainly won't be by the return of Jesus or some other religious claptrap.

Well, no. Apparently, the winner will be some mysterious wonder child who can see magnet fields through bed clothes or perhaps a neurotic aura-reader who didn't ever realise that no-one else could see them. Get Sylvia Browne on the line.... I think I'm having another 'magnetic episode'..... WOOOOOOOooooo

Kindly lay down those stones, as the dwelling place in which you reside is particularly vunerable to errant projectiles, what with all those panes of glass making up the walls and roof.

LOL.

[JoeTheJuggler]

At first I thought that was a wild attempt at trolling, but it does bring up an issue. I never thought of actually trying to deceive Randi or the JREF, with an economic motive. Maybe others have, but I find no threads here that ever discussed this. Giving it some thought yesterday, the first thing I came up with would be mind reading, thought transference. Two people with a real bent for collecting a million dollars, and the ability to spend some money, and have some messed up surgery done, might have micro transmitters and receivers implanted surgically, and use sub-vocalization to transmit information during a test.


First, I'd suspect it's very very difficult to win by deception. (Try to imagine if a real magician could get away with the lousy controls most woo performers are able to get away with--sorry folks, no show tonight because there are bad vibes in the air--or because you're looking too darn close.)

Second, if someone succeeded in winning the million dollars through deception, they would undoubtedly eventually be found out. That's fraud (criminal fraud, at the very least--you could probably pursue a civil case as well), and they'd risk some serious prison time.

[Cuddles]

At first I thought that was a wild attempt at trolling, but it does bring up an issue. I never thought of actually trying to deceive Randi or the JREF, with an economic motive. Maybe others have, but I find no threads here that ever discussed this. Giving it some thought yesterday, the first thing I came up with would be mind reading, thought transference. Two people with a real bent for collecting a million dollars, and the ability to spend some money, and have some messed up surgery done, might have micro transmitters and receivers implanted surgically, and use sub-vocalization to transmit information during a test.

Putting one of them in a Faraday cage will prevent any electromagnetic signals being tranmitted between them. I doubt this would be done for a preliminary, but for a final test I wouldn't be at all surprised. Any other form of communication should already be prevented by the protocol, that being the whole point of developing it.

[TheGreatNotchweed]

@robinson: I'd really like to see the links to that method. That would be interesting.

[Unnamed]

@robinson: I'd really like to see the links to that method. That would be interesting.
robinson made clear that the links are not coming, so don't hold your breath.

[robinson]

Anyone who wants to do some searching online can find the same links I did. I'm running a few experiments by some rocket scientist before I say anything more.

[robinson]

MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging - the name kind of gives it away) works by exciting protons, mainly the ones in water, with a magnetic field. Their motion produces their own magnetic field, which in turn excites particles in the scanner. From the field induced in the scanner, the position of the protons can be dertermined. No protons, no detection of magnetic field.

This is an example of conversation(?) that annoys me, for several reasons. First, and most important, I don't know everything about everything, so its possible to look like an idiot when discussing stuff that I know only a little about. Second, the same goes for other people. heh

My understanding of an MRI is that it uses radio waves to excite the hydrogen atoms, which are aligned to the magnetic field, produced by the magnet in the MRI. Then the radio waves are turned off, and the radio frequencies given off by the hydrogen atoms are recorded by sensors, and a computer is used to create an image of that energy.

And this process is described as "seeing" by both medical and scientific bodies. As in, "the MRI allows us to see inside the body". Or to "see what occurs in the brain".

However, if one uses a method like this to "see" magnetic fields, according to some, that would not be seeing magnetic fields. Even if you can create a three dimensional image of a magnetic field. I'm sure its just me, but that seems like a doubtful double standard.

It seems like a timesink to get into it.

[Cuddles]

This is an example of conversation(?) that annoys me, for several reasons. First, and most important, I don't know everything about everything, so its possible to look like an idiot when discussing stuff that I know only a little about. Second, the same goes for other people. heh

My understanding of an MRI is that it uses radio waves to excite the hydrogen atoms, which are aligned to the magnetic field, produced by the magnet in the MRI. Then the radio waves are turned off, and the radio frequencies given off by the hydrogen atoms are recorded by sensors, and a computer is used to create an image of that energy.

And this process is described as "seeing" by both medical and scientific bodies. As in, "the MRI allows us to see inside the body". Or to "see what occurs in the brain".

However, if one uses a method like this to "see" magnetic fields, according to some, that would not be seeing magnetic fields. Even if you can create a three dimensional image of a magnetic field. I'm sure its just me, but that seems like a doubtful double standard.

It seems like a timesink to get into it.

An MRI scanner works exactly the way I described. Your understanding is wrong. Protons are the nucleus of hydrogen atoms, and since only the nucleus is used here the two terms are interchangeable. I don't know where you are getting your double standard form, because no-one on this forum has said anything about this not being "seeing" a magnetic field. If you put a particle in a magnetic field and measure its motion, you can work out what the magnetic field is, and if you like you can make a picture of it. What you can't do is have a magnetic field all by itself with nothing in it and work out what the field is, because there is nothing there to measure its effect on. There are no double standards involved, if you measure a magnetic field then you can measure a magnetic field, if you don't measure it then you are not measuring it.

[Macoy]

Sorry I'm late.
Robinson, are you capable of summerising from "It's not me that's doing it"?

[robinson]

summerising ?

[Macoy]

Making your precis a little warmer

[Unnamed]

I don't know where you are getting your double standard form, because no-one on this forum has said anything about this not being "seeing" a magnetic field.
I think that he read your post as saying that what an MRI does is not "seeing". Apparently his method is indirect like CT and MRI, and needs post-processing ("technology").

If you put a particle in a magnetic field and measure its motion, you can work out what the magnetic field is, and if you like you can make a picture of it.
Yes. For example, one can use electron beams (http://www.physics.ucla.edu/plasma-exp/beam/) or one of the other techniques that I linked to.

Now I am confused. Are we still discussing how those two people that are candidates for the MDC could possibly see magnetic fields? At some point, we were exploring whether that's even physically possible (it isn't, hence the million dollars), then robinson mentioned in passing that he has a method to see fields.

In my mind, the two claims became connected and I thought he was suggesting that maybe the subjects could visualize magnetism using something related to this method.

But that would require the subjects to place something inside the field, which was not the case in his trials (unless his method does not require this, which is doubtful).

At this point, we are left with unsubstantiated claims that there is an unnamed method, already published at an unspecified location on the web, with unclear complexity and unlisted requirements, that can obtain unspecified information about magnetic fields and generate a visualization, but we cannot talk about it because we are too annoying.

[robinson]

heh

You can talk about it all you want.

[robinson]

An MRI scanner works exactly the way I described.

No, an MRI does not. That no one else has bothered to set you straight, tells a lot.

[nathan]

No, an MRI does not. That no one else has bothered to set you straight, tells a lot.

I don't see what there is to set Cuddles straight. His description matches my understanding. Could you elaborate beyond simply saying he's wrong?

[William Smith]

Does this help? http://www.howstuffworks.com/mri1.htm

[steenkh]

From http://health.howstuffworks.com/mri7.htm

When the RF pulse is turned off, the hydrogen protons begin to slowly (relatively speaking) return to their natural alignment within the magnetic field and release their excess stored energy. When they do this, they give off a signal that the coil now picks up and sends to the computer system.
This seems to vindicate robinson, IMHO

[Cuddles]

From http://health.howstuffworks.com/mri7.htm


This seems to vindicate robinson, IMHO

Except that that's pretty much exactly what I said. Having read Robinson's post again I think that we are both actually saying exactly the same thing, except that he said hydrogen instead of proton. I get the feeling Robinson is arguing with me for the sake of it, rather than because he can actually see anything wrong with what I said.

[robinson]

I'm not arguing with you. This should be obvious. In fact, I would guess it is self evident.

[CynicalSkeptic]

I'm certainly confused. How is this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2152015#post2152015) not arguing with Cuddles?

[teck49]

Can we please call this point a draw between you "playground warriors" and move on to bigger & better (hopefully) points?

[robinson]

Of course.

[Beth]

robinson,

Have you had a chance to revisit with either of the two individuals you originally discussed? I'm curious to know if their performance was repeatable.

[William Smith]

robinson,

Have you had a chance to revisit with either of the two individuals you originally discussed? I'm curious to know if their performance was repeatable.

Or, robinson, please pardon my french, can you produce a little more than just your words?

Calling yourself a scientist, you most likely will respect the demand for evidence. Especially, since you chose to post this thread in the Challenge Forum.

[rjh01]

This has been going on for over a month. Your OP was great. But now I will be breaking the guidelines of the forum to say more.

[personable]

Agreed. It's turned into a bore of woo-ific proportions.

[robinson]

Pity.

[William Smith]

Pity.

Robinson, should we consider this thread officially laid to eternal rest by its creator?

[robinson]

Why in the world would you want me, or anyone, to tell you what to do?

[William Smith]

robinson,

Have you had a chance to revisit with either of the two individuals you originally discussed? I'm curious to know if their performance was repeatable.

Or, robinson, please pardon my french, can you produce a little more than just your words?

Calling yourself a scientist, you most likely will respect the demand for evidence. Especially, since you chose to post this thread in the Challenge Forum.

Well?

[rjh01]

I just had babel fish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/)translate Robinson's title. It means 'I do not believe nothing, scientist'.

Now where are the cat photos?

[robinson]

Yes, cat photos. The crowning achievement of pussies.

[William Smith]

Yes, cat photos. The crowning achievement of pussies.

You got nuthin', right?

[teck49]

That's it. All of you will have to stand in the corner for 5 minutes. Please, try to act like adults at least. We'll work on mutual respect next week. I mean next year.

[robinson]

Aww, cmon, let us fight! (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=robinson&word2=rjh01)

[William Smith]

Aww, cmon, let us fight! (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=robinson&word2=rjh01)

Some evidence will suffice.

[rjh01]

Wow! I got 920 references! That is not bad. A good percentage of them would be mine too. However robinson (a common name) would be heaps of people. But I have been quoted on another forum see http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29400&sid=804a4b0e0029f7bbda41d4e1459520a3

Robinson, you have just made my day! Thank you.

[robinson]

I exist to serve.

[robinson]

OK there is nothing new happening with the original two subjects. I did consider subjecting you to information about a third however. But with 0% chance of it ever coming to a challenge stage, what would be the point?

Subject is aware that "ability" does not pass the opaque barrier test, the doorway test, or the mannequin test.

Maybe I should talk about viewing magnetic fields.

[robinson]

Some evidence will suffice.

What do you accept as evidence? That is always the crucial question in regards to the MDC.

[robinson]

I look damn stupid in this hat.

[William Smith]

What do you accept as evidence? That is always the crucial question in regards to the MDC.

To succeed, no trickery must be involved, one must do as one claims.
To fail: Well, everything else.

[robinson]

What do you accept as evidence? That is still the question.

[William Smith]

What do you accept as evidence? That is still the question.

In this particular case, evidence for success would mean to me: The subject succeeds on a number of trials to locate a magnet without using the five senses.

[Beth]

In this particular case, evidence for success would mean to me: The subject succeeds on a number of trials to locate a magnet without using the five senses.

So if they can locate it by seeing the magnetic field when the magnet is hidden from view, that would not qualify?

[William Smith]

So if they can locate it by seeing the magnetic field when the magnet is hidden from view, that would not qualify?

If you mean by "hidden from view" that the subject's eyes are under a blindfold or mask and he still succeeds to locate the magnets within a predetermined accuracy, that would qualify to me.

How about you?

[robinson]

Screw that, just use objects that all look alike, but some are magnets. But you can't tell by just looking which are which. If somebody can pick out a magnet just by looking at it, that is friggin paranormal as hell.

[William Smith]

Screw that, just use objects that all look alike, but some are magnets. But you can't tell by just looking which are which. If somebody can pick out a magnet just by looking at it, that is friggin paranormal as hell.

That's your call. JREF Challenge - JREF's call. (If it were my challenge, I'd insist on letting none of the five senses detect anything, without harming the subject.)

Robinson, you made it clear that an application is highly unlikely. Did that change in any way?

Also, Beth said a while ago, if you had a chance to revisit with either of the two individuals you originally discussed? She's curious to know if their performance was repeatable.

[Beth]

If you mean by "hidden from view" that the subject's eyes are under a blindfold or mask and he still succeeds to locate the magnets within a predetermined accuracy, that would qualify to me.

How about you?

Well, yes, that would work. But, if they are claiming to see the magnetic field visually, as Robinson's OP indicated, that wouldn't be appropriate to their claim. I don't know enough to say with confidence whether being able to visually discern a magnetic field should be considered paranormal, but my impression is that it would be.

What is they claim to be able to discern it by feel - i.e. holding their hands over the magnets? Should that be allowed if they were blindfolded as well?

[robinson]

No news until after the Holidays.


What is they claim to be able to discern it by feel - i.e. holding their hands over the magnets? Should that be allowed if they were blindfolded as well?

That triggered an old memory, many years ago I had a strange encounter with a "sensitive" concerning magnets. I had read something about strong magnets and small animals, how you could alter their little brains by placing two magnets just so. (I forget now what it was). As a joke I held these two magnets up to her head in the manner prescribed , and she pushed my hands away and screamed "No!". Just like she had felt something. I tried the magnets on my head and felt nothing. She wouldn't let me do any experiments on this. In fact, I think she was a little disturbed by my asking. I forgot all about that. Of course, it was almost thirty years ago, but still ... I wonder if I can locate her now.

[Beth]

No news until after the Holidays.



That triggered an old memory, many years ago I had a strange encounter with a "sensitive" concerning magnets. I had read something about strong magnets and small animals, how you could alter their little brains by placing two magnets just so. (I forget now what it was). As a joke I held these two magnets up to her head in the manner prescribed , and she pushed my hands away and screamed "No!". Just like she had felt something. I tried the magnets on my head and felt nothing. She wouldn't let me do any experiments on this. In fact, I think she was a little disturbed by my asking. I forgot all about that. Of course, it was almost thirty years ago, but still ... I wonder if I can locate her now.

I brought it up because after reading your OP, I contacted a friend who claims to be able to see auras and that they are part of the electromagnetic spectrum. I asked if he was able to see magnetic fields, he said yes, but not very well. It was easier for him to hear and feel them.

I'd like to get test him myself, but I doubt he would agree to such testing and I don't have any powerful magnets to test him with anyway.

Anyway, I've found the thread interesting. Please let us know the results if you succeed in conducting any further tests.

[Invidious]

Of course, it was almost thirty years ago, but still ... I wonder if I can locate her now.
Maybe you could have one of your new sensitives keep their eyes peeled for your old sensitive. Just tell them she might be kind of screwed up now, magnetically speaking. If they ask why that is, rub your hands maniacally and tell them, "I MAGNETIZED her brain! Bwehehehe! Speaking of which, can I tell you more about that challenge I mentioned earlier?"

Experimental design: Get 5 identical puppies. Feed one of them a magnet. Have subject identify magnetic doggy. ("Is it the one with paper clips stuck to it?") Wait for doggy to "return" magnet. Test again.

[robinson]

I brought it up because after reading your OP, I contacted a friend who claims to be able to see auras and that they are part of the electromagnetic spectrum. I asked if he was able to see magnetic fields, he said yes, but not very well. It was easier for him to hear and feel them.

I'd like to get test him myself, but I doubt he would agree to such testing and I don't have any powerful magnets to test him with anyway.

Anyway, I've found the thread interesting. Please let us know the results if you succeed in conducting any further tests.

Interesting. I think I might just pack up my super magnets and go visit the local woo village. Maybe I can find me somebody who can pass a test. I sure could use that 50 grand.

[personable]

Interesting. I think I might just pack up my super magnets and go visit the local woo village. Maybe I can find me somebody who can pass a test. I sure could use that 50 grand.

Use a dowsing rod to find them. You could also make some money on the way by locating bodies for the police for a modest fee.

Good luck.


Chris.

[William Smith]

No news until after the Holidays.



That triggered an old memory, many years ago I had a strange encounter with a "sensitive" concerning magnets. I had read something about strong magnets and small animals, how you could alter their little brains by placing two magnets just so. (I forget now what it was). As a joke I held these two magnets up to her head in the manner prescribed , and she pushed my hands away and screamed "No!". Just like she had felt something. I tried the magnets on my head and felt nothing. She wouldn't let me do any experiments on this. In fact, I think she was a little disturbed by my asking. I forgot all about that. Of course, it was almost thirty years ago, but still ... I wonder if I can locate her now.

Interesting. I think I might just pack up my super magnets and go visit the local woo village. Maybe I can find me somebody who can pass a test. I sure could use that 50 grand.

I find it hard to decide whether you are kidding ore indeed try to be serious.

Is this thread - that is, your actions you describe - moving towards a Challenge Application, robinson?

[teck49]

"When the music's over, turn off the light."

Isn't it "turn out the light"?

BTW, if you want to have some fun, rave to Jeff about the Doors. I turned him on to "An American Prayer", trying to show him some of Morrisson's writing ability & he HATED IT. Each to his own I guess.

[robinson]

I brought it up because after reading your OP, I contacted a friend who claims to be able to see auras and that they are part of the electromagnetic spectrum. I asked if he was able to see magnetic fields, he said yes, but not very well. It was easier for him to hear and feel them.

I'd like to get test him myself, but I doubt he would agree to such testing and I don't have any powerful magnets to test him with anyway.


Interesting. Why do you think he wouldn't agree to a test? And what protocol would you use? Powerful magnets are easy to get online. If you could get a chance to do a test, it could be arranged.

[Beth]

Interesting. Why do you think he wouldn't agree to a test? And what protocol would you use? Powerful magnets are easy to get online. If you could get a chance to do a test, it could be arranged.

I don't think he'll agree to a test because I've mentioned the MDC to him before and he has no interest in it. His wife is a dear friend of mine. I wouldn't be comfortable pressuring him to do a test because I value their friendship.

[William Smith]

I don't think he'll agree to a test because I've mentioned the MDC to him before and he has no interest in it. His wife is a dear friend of mine. I wouldn't be comfortable pressuring him to do a test because I value their friendship.

Could you please try to clarify why he "has no interest" in the Challenge, Beth?

[Beth]

Could you please try to clarify why he "has no interest" in the Challenge, Beth?

The money's not actually there. Randi will never award it. He isn't interested in the money. What he does can't be tested. etc. etc.

[William Smith]

The money's not actually there. Randi will never award it. He isn't interested in the money. What he does can't be tested. etc. etc.

I do not want to beat a dead horse, but hearing or feeling magnetic fields seems quite easily testable, right?

But I would not want your relationship with his wife to deteriorate because of the slim chance getting him to agree to a Challenge Application.

[teck49]

Any progress on a possible challenge before the 4/1 deadline?

[robinson]

Yes, but not with synesthesia, auras, or anything like that. Another unrelated event has taken precedent.

[teck49]

Like?

[robinson]

I'm going to do a some preliminary testing before saying anything more.

[teck49]

Good idea

[Pro7]

:wide-eyed Wow this is a eye opener for me. heh.

Im not going to go into details but I do know someone who had for the longest time claimed that he could see UFOS every single day and night. He has gotten so used to it, he ignores them.

He had severe autism by birth and when he was a young kid, he drove his bike off of a edge of a road near his home and was transported to the nearest hospital since he had a real bad gash across his face which required surgeries.

He went into natural state of coma during surgery somehow and three days later he woke up with a blank mind. Sounding like a total amnesia to me.. when he woke up, the doctors diagnosed him that he was no longer autistic.. he became a "normal" person in the eyes of the doctors. He had to be retrained how to walk, eat, etc..

Seems similiar to your topic here, that he somehow is able to view things that most of us cannot. Is it possible? one will never know.

[Pro7]

As additional info, I just thought of a incident involving him and I about 4 years ago.

He came to Idaho to visit his family and decided to stop by my house. It was at night time and he told me he wanted to go to the bar to shoot some pool.

I said sure, but when we started to leave the house, (my house at the time was in the rural, middle of nowhere, "out in the country") he poised like he was shocked to see something in the sky. He pointed his finger to the sky and said "see it?"..

I said "see what"? .. I dont see anything. He said that he sees a large flying craft just going pass the area of the houses slowly. At first I thought he was going off the rocker or something, but however, I told him just ignore it since I knew that he may have had some kind of mental problems regarding these things to begin with. We went to the bar and the bar lady had a police scanner in the back where the dart machines were, in a office in the backend of the bar (near where the restrooms were at..)

The police scanner started sparking up "unknown flying craft in vincinty" near the airport. The police was called in by several dozen reports by phone calls to the airport area. According to the police scanner, the craft took off right after the police arrived there, there must have been about 10 police witnesses, plus the people who worked at the airport. (The airport at the time was a small airport)

I was... :eek: , what if this guy has been telling the truth all along?

[steenkh]

I was... :eek: , what if this guy has been telling the truth all along?
A pity that you did not see the craft. How carefully did you look?

At any rate, if there was something this time, whatever it was, it does not follow that everything else he sees is something.

He could have been lucky, and had one of his usual visions just when there happened to be an unidentified craft in the vicinity.

[petre]

Seems similiar to your topic here, that he somehow is able to view things that most of us cannot. Is it possible? one will never know.

There are a large number of tests that could verify the ability to see something not normally percievable that would qualify for the challenge. There are also several ways to describe abilities that cannot be tested (e.g. "I can turn invisible, but only if there is no one looking", where any failure is taken to be a new specific case where the ability will not function).

If his ability is of the first type, then it is worth $1 million (or more). If his ability is of the second type, it's not really even worth posting about.

[robinson]

UFO's are not allowed in the MDC.

[Gr8wight]

UFO's are not allowed in the MDC.

Tell that to Prophet Yahweh (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=40507).

[Shadow]

OK I thought about what would Randi do? A small but powerful secret magnet will work. Might have been hidden under fingernail polish, on the pointing finger.

http://www.randi.org/jr/12-29-2000.html

Or even more likely
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71087-0.html?tw=rss.index

I feel the money slipping away ...

I actually have a friend that knows of people having magnets implanted into thier bodies to perform cool "parlor ticks" during extreme body modification shows. He has been a piercer for 8 years and has done body suspensions for these such shows. Like I said its cool for performing "parlor tricks", see if they are willing to undergo a simple x-ray.

[Thabiguy]

There is a simple double-blinded protocol that can be used to test C1, without the need for a third party, electromagnets, blinds, repeated trials or complicated controls.

You'll need: 20 cards, 20 new magnets and a room with little furniture and carpet-covered floor.

1. Inspect the magnets to make sure that they are symmetrical and have no visual clues. Do not measure their polarity.
2. Mark the cards 1 to 20 and put them down on the floor by the wall opposite the door. Make sure they are all in plain view from the door and spaced sufficiently apart to prevent magnet interaction.
3. Take a magnet. Go far away from the cards. With your eyes closed, flip it as you would a coin, letting it fall on the floor. (Carpet-covered, so that it doesn't break.)
4. Open your eyes, pick the magnet up as it fell and place it on top of its respective card. Repeat for all 20 magnets, making sure that you never approach those magnets that are already placed.
5. Open the door and let C1 stand in it, but do not allow them to enter the room. Ask them which magnets are the same side up as magnet 1. Write the answers down. Ask them which magnets are the other side up. Write the answers down. Verify that no number is missing or duplicated; reask if needed.
6. Measure the polarity of the magnets. Because the magnets are in plain view, anything but a perfect score will be considered a failure. The odds to succeed by chance are 1 to 524,288.

If anyone can spot a flaw in this protocol that I overlooked, please point it out.

[Apathia]

UFO's are not allowed in the MDC.

Is there some way we can get them disallowed from Phoenix?
Maybe make them stay up in Sedona and spiral till they drop dizzy there?

[petre]

I actually have a friend that knows of people having magnets implanted into thier bodies to perform cool "parlor ticks" during extreme body modification shows. He has been a piercer for 8 years and has done body suspensions for these such shows. Like I said its cool for performing "parlor tricks", see if they are willing to undergo a simple x-ray.

I prefer to suggest an MRI. Yeouch!

[robinson]

I actually have a friend that knows of people having magnets implanted into thier bodies to perform cool "parlor ticks" during extreme body modification shows. He has been a piercer for 8 years and has done body suspensions for these such shows. Like I said its cool for performing "parlor tricks", see if they are willing to undergo a simple x-ray.

Yes, I found a few links to very clever, very small magnets placed in flesh, a very clever trick. Also, certain metals placed next to nerves allows sensitivity to other radiation as well. It seems to be some kind of mechanism that leads to OH radical production, which allows non-ionizing radiation to produce chemical changes in the area around the metals, leading to extreme sensitivity to low levels of non-ionizing radiation.

[Cuddles]

Also, certain metals placed next to nerves allows sensitivity to other radiation as well. It seems to be some kind of mechanism that leads to OH radical production, which allows non-ionizing radiation to produce chemical changes in the area around the metals, leading to extreme sensitivity to low levels of non-ionizing radiation.

Care to provide any evidence for this?

[robinson]

Sure, right after my status has changed from "applicant" to "claimant".


:D

[William Smith]

Do not change other poster's words with the quote function.

Duh.

[William Smith]

Sure, right after my status has changed from "applicant" to "claimant".


:D

I apologize for my - appropriately AutoModActed - editing of your above quoted post, robinson.

I rephrase my criticism as follows:

When will you apply for the JREF Challenge and with what exact claim?

[robinson]

Detecting radiation using metal is not paranormal or a super power, so it does not meet the MDC requirements. Light causing charged particles to be ejected from metal, is called the photoelectric effect. It is not woo, but science.

I was having you on a bit. :D

[robinson]

Tell that to Prophet Yahweh (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=40507).

Prophet Yahweh, UFO's are not allowed in the MDC.

[William Smith]

Prophet Yahweh, UFO's are not allowed in the MDC.

Wrong, robinson.

[Apathia]

It was wrong of you, Robinson, to tell the Prophet Yahweh that. How rude!
:D

[Pro7]

haha you guys are funny. I have been keeping eye out on this prophet yeahwhat ever since he came out with the "summoning ufos on demand"...

[robinson]

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.3

The following things have been ruled NOT paranormal and/or NOT eligible for the Challenge in the past:

UFOs. "Bigfoot" & "Yeti" (or other legendary creatures). Anything that is likely to cause injury. "Cloud-busting". Claims of a Religious or Spiritual nature. Exorcism and/or Demonic Possession. The Existence of Chakras. The Existence of God[s]. Reincarnation. The Existence of the Soul or "Astral Bodies".

[Pro7]

A pity that you did not see the craft. How carefully did you look?

At any rate, if there was something this time, whatever it was, it does not follow that everything else he sees is something.

He could have been lucky, and had one of his usual visions just when there happened to be an unidentified craft in the vicinity.


1. He pointed his finger to the area where the supposed craft was strolling along pass the houses up the block. If I was able to see it, I would have not missed it at all. He said it was a huge thing.. but did not give me specific dimensional or size details at the time.

2. I did think it might have been a coincidence in regards to the police reports on the police scanner, however the more I think about it, the timing issue in my mind is very narrow to even think it might have been a coincidence. It is due that my house at the time was only 2 miles away from the airport, and the bar is about 3 miles away from my house as well.

[Pro7]

I called him yesterday about this forum issue... He told me on the phone why would I do this? Im supposed to keep it a secret just between us, but I told him that I did not give out any personal details such as who it was, where he lived, etc etc..

He said that doesnt matter....

I said why? He explained to me that when he was a kid, there were also government doctors examining him after he came out of the coma.

I said WHAT?... I didnt know. But again, in my mind, I think hes just "BSing"... but he did go into details about him being retrained how to walk, talk, etc etc .. that it was done by a trainer who was a part of the government program to assist after comatose people with extremities of amnesia.

I told him there is nothing to be afraid of, come and join JREF forum. I also explained to him about the 1 million dollar challenge. He said that he has no interest in exposing himself for what he does or have done in the past.

I asked him "Why no interest in exposure" he said that in the past, those who have been exposed with psychic or alternative vision capabilities are usually taken and studied by the government to further their achievement in military technology.

That part there made me think hard. Here is this guy, who claims to see UFOs and yet a very intelligent man, who knows what will happen if he get exposed to the public. Maybe thats why the 1 mil challenge will never be challenged, Anyone who has genuine *sp?* abilities to do such things, knows that there are people out there who will seriously examine them.

I asked him if he was afraid to be exposed as a fraud. He said no.. it makes no difference if he is a fraud or not. Exposing will also expose everything and everyone else around him such as families, relatives..Those who do serious examinations on such subjects will also have a effect on their relatives such as parents or siblings.

Maybe thats why the 1 million dollar challenge goes unchallenged. Various reasons that people with geniune abilities to do such things must hide themselves from the world, in fear of being studied by the government, or anyone else.

Fear is a mind killer, but it also protects sometimes...

[Pro7]

I dont know. There are so many things on Earth that could not be simply explained away even in scientific terms. It makes me think about my friend... I wonder what else he can see? ... since he stated "psychic or alternative vision capabilities are usually taken and studied by the government to further their achievement in military technology"

It is apparently true because I have seen so many articles on the internet and else where about the government agencies having, at the time, classified projects to study the human mind, such as remote viewing, etc etc.. you name it.. its all there. hmm..

[robinson]

While it sounds crazy, Governments taking people against their will, using them to wage war, making people with certain abilities train to do their bidding....wait...OK that does happen .... all the time, but, certainly it couldn't happen here!

[Pro7]

While it sounds crazy, Governments taking people against their will, using them to wage war, making people with certain abilities train to do their bidding....wait...OK that does happen .... all the time, but, certainly it couldn't happen here!

Yea I know.. Freedom of Speech is #1 priority here, however, as in respectable terms. What would a person be so afraid of? .. thats my point.. why fear? :)

[Burner]

I dont know. There are so many things on Earth that could not be simply explained away even in scientific terms. It makes me think about my friend... I wonder what else he can see? ... since he stated "psychic or alternative vision capabilities are usually taken and studied by the government to further their achievement in military technology"

It is apparently true because I have seen so many articles on the internet and else where about the government agencies having, at the time, classified projects to study the human mind, such as remote viewing, etc etc.. you name it.. its all there. hmm..

Your friend watches too much X-files and so do you. If a person was to demostrate genuine psychic powers he would undobutedly get rediculous media exposure. His mug would be on the front cover of every paper and every tv show in the world. Do you really think that some goverment black ops could just kidnap him and stick a tube up his ass?

[robinson]

In WWII, people with special abilities, (not woo, but certainly special), were used by the US Government to win the war.

[Burner]

In WWII, people with special abilities, (not woo, but certainly special), were used by the US Government to win the war.

Your point being? Espionage, diversions, assasinations etc. are proven abilities while seeing UFOs and distant viewing are not.

[robinson]

I was speaking of code-talkers and scientist actually. The point is, that if someone actually "knows" they have a special ability, it is a sign of intelligence and mental balance, to also know that they may be drafted because of it. While we know they are not special, they don't, hence they fear what happens to mutants. Sure we can attribute this to both X-files, the X-men, and pop culture, but it actually is like that in most countries.

[Apathia]

When I was in Junior High, I invented the "Monkey-Make Ray."
I'd aim my ballpoint pen at my teachers and zap them. Within minutes, the given zapped teacher would do something "foolish" or "stupid."

Now I wouldn't want to apply for the MDC with this. Government agencies would want the secret of its opperation, and how to protect our national leaders from its balefull effects.

Too late!

:lol2:

[steenkh]

In WWII, people with special abilities, (not woo, but certainly special), were used by the US Government to win the war.
But not against their will. In fact, it would be very difficult to do it against their will.

[robinson]

Nonsense. Many were drafted. After the screwing the US Government had given the native Americans, they still won the war for their oppressors, who at the time were trying to prevent the Navajo from speaking their Native language. True to form, during the entire war, none of the code talkers were promoted, few received any honors or medals, and they were denied Veterans benefits after the war. This was after saving 2 million American lives.

A true mutant with super powers isn't going to get any better treatment, (if there really is any such thing, which is unlikely). Certainly the MDC won't be the tool to discover it.

[Burner]

A true mutant with super powers isn't going to get any better treatment, (if there really is any such thing, which is unlikely). Certainly the MDC won't be the tool to discover it.

What if it's a stupid mutant?

[robinson]

We can only hope.:D

[Pro7]

Your friend watches too much X-files and so do you. If a person was to demostrate genuine psychic powers he would undobutedly get rediculous media exposure. His mug would be on the front cover of every paper and every tv show in the world. Do you really think that some goverment black ops could just kidnap him and stick a tube up his ass?

I dont know.. to say the truth.. I dont really know. Too many things can happen which could be unproven.

X-Files.. hmm Scully knocked on my door yesterday.. wanted to see if I could go out with her to dinner....:eye-poppi

[robinson]

If a person was to demostrate[sic] genuine psychic powers he would undobutedly[sic] get rediculous[sic] media exposure. His mug would be on the front cover of every paper and every tv[sic] show in the world. Do you really think that some goverment[sic] black ops could just kidnap him and stick a tube up his ass?

Every time I hear some wild claim like this, I have to wonder, how do you come up with that? I think people get their idea of how the "Media" works from TV and movies, rather than any real experience with a News Agency, or other Media outlet. People who come up with real stuff, verifiable stuff, testable and repeatable stuff, rarely get such exposure. As in, almost never. What makes people think some "new, unexplained power" is of such great interest? Or that anyone even cares?

It must be movies or TV. The real world doesn't work anything like what people imagine it does, based on stuff they watch on TV.

:wackylaugh:

[Starrman]

I dont know.. to say the truth.. I dont really know. Too many things can happen which could be unproven.

X-Files.. hmm Scully knocked on my door yesterday.. wanted to see if I could go out with her to dinner....:eye-poppi

My take is that if you don't want the government to bother you, get as much exposure as possible. If you lay low, and the government finds out, it makes it much easier for them to take you and erase you without much hoopla. But if you become a public figure, it becomes much more difficult.

I beleive the 'I don't want to be experimented on' line is an excuse for those who, deep down, know they don't really have any special abilities.

Also note that the government, so far, has not abducted Sylvia Brown, Uri Gellar, John Edward, James Van Praagh, any of the 9-11 deniers or any of the NASA moon-hoax exposers. Why do you think that is?

[Starrman]

Every time I hear some wild claim like this, I have to wonder, how do you come up with that? I think people get their idea of how the "Media" works from TV and movies, rather than any real experience with a News Agency, or other Media outlet. People who come up with real stuff, verifiable stuff, testable and repeatable stuff, rarely get such exposure. As in, almost never. What makes people think some "new, unexplained power" is of such great interest? Or that anyone even cares?

It must be movies or TV. The real world doesn't work anything like what people imagine it does, based on stuff they watch on TV.

:wackylaugh:

Do you really think someone with real, verifiable psychic ability wouldn't get large amounts of media attention? Just look at how much exposure fake psychics like Sylvia Browne gets. Cripes, Allison Dubois has a whole successful TV series based on her life.

[robinson]

Do you really think someone with real, verifiable psychic ability wouldn't get large amounts of media attention? Just look at how much exposure fake psychics like Sylvia Browne gets. Cripes, Allison Dubois has a whole successful TV series based on her life.

I've never heard of Allison Dubois until you mentioned her. A quick search shows little or no News coverage, (your results might vary), but a bunch of sponsored links, probably trying to sell me something.

http://search.cnn.com/pages/search.jsp?query=Allison%20Dubois

I had never heard of Sylvia Browne until I read about her here, on this forum, where she gets a lot of exposure.

A CNN search on Sylvia Browne shows no media coverage, except for the obvious Larry King link. I'm sure entertainment shows cover their crap, but I don't watch them, and could care less. Same thing for tabloids on the News stand at checkout, don't read em, don't care.

If you think any of these so called " fake psychics" get any real News coverage, let me know where. A TV show is entertainment, not a source of news.

To answer your question, no. I don't think it would get even a 15 second byte if someone proved some new ability. It might get covered by entertainment shows, but real news, nothing. Like I said, real earthshaking discoveries happen, and they don't get mass coverage. Why would you think some unusual power would?
























Oh yeah, cause you saw it on a movie, or a TV show somewhere.

[Starrman]

I've never heard of Allison Dubois until you mentioned her. A quick search shows little or no News coverage, (your results might vary), but a bunch of sponsored links, probably trying to sell me something.

Oh - we are only looking for REAL news - I wasn't aware of that development. You asked for a 'News Agency or other Media outlet.' Why are you changing the rules? I was specifically thinking of media in general. Sylvia Browne, John Edward and Allison Dubois have best selling books which are sold as non-fiction. They are on talk shows. They are public figures. They have TV shows. They are in the media. Will they ever be mentioned in 'The Economist' - maybe, they run quite profitable enterprises. Either way to say they are not famous because YOU never heard of them is ridiculous.



If you think any of these so called " fake psychics" get any real News coverage, let me know where. A TV show is entertainment, not a source of news.

Again - when did I say they were in the 'news' - I said in the media. Much wider net.


To answer your question, no. I don't think it would get even a 15 second byte if someone proved some new ability. It might get covered by entertainment shows, but real news, nothing. Like I said, real earthshaking discoveries happen, and they don't get mass coverage. Why would you think some unusual power would?

Oh yeah, cause you saw it on a movie, or a TV show somewhere.

Neverminding the persumptious jerk-ass comment at the end, but I will disagree completely. If the slacks that swallow the fakers hook line and sinker found someone who really could predict 100 coin flips out of 100, or could find missing people reliably with psychic visions, it would be all over the place.

Also - please list an 'earthshaking' discovery that didn't get mass coverage. I wonder how something can be earthshaking if a large percentage of the population is unaware of it.

[robinson]

Oh - we are only looking for REAL news -

Actually, I think there is some confusion, I was responding to Burner's claim, so there is a mixture of stuff here. Like a real conversation almost.

I think if somebody makes a claim, they should be able to show or explain why they believe it, not the other way around. In simple terms, if you think something would happen, and I say, "I doubt it", you have to explain why, not me.

:wackywink:

While we are heading for an off topic jaunt on this, it may be on topic, if we bring it back around to a finders fee. Regarding your request for examples, lets set up a protocol before we get to that. In other words, what will both parties accept as an example? And how will it be obvious to any reader that my claim has been shown to be true?

[robinson]

Also - please list an 'earthshaking' discovery that didn't get mass coverage. I wonder how something can be earthshaking if a large percentage of the population is unaware of it.

To be precise, I am asking what you would accept as evidence, in regards to an 'earthshaking' discovery that didn't get mass coverage. While it may seem like nitpicking, it illustrates the same issue that arises in the MDC. (see, now we are on topic, sort of)

First, what is meant by an 'earthshaking' discovery ?

What is meant by mass coverage?

And btw, thanks for the response, because it helped clarify a constant issue that I see with messages like ours, the problem of language and meaning. I know this can be construed as pedantic, and the thought of a troll jumping in screaming SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS! YOU ARE AVOIDING THE ISSUE WITH SEMANTICS! does come to mind.

As with the MDC, I think it is vital that a protocol is worked out in advance, that both parties agree to, before any claim can be said to be proved, or demonstrated.

Of course, I could be clever, and turn this around on those claiming a "real" psychic would get mass coverage, and insist they prove it. Then the protocol would be how do you prove that claim?

It really is funny, if you take the same concept of the MDC and apply it to many claims made by skeptics, who have nothing but belief to back up their commentary. The angry jumping up and down and screaming, is almost woo like.

No no, not you, the other people. You would never do that.

While I do indeed have a few examples, and the first impulse is to just state them, experience has shown, the most likely response will be either silence, (thread death), or dismissal by claiming it doesn't meet the (unstated) criteria for 'earthshaking', or 'mass coverage,'both of which may be true, but without knowing what we mean by these terms, it is impossible to tell.

Agreed? While I doubt anyone will actually rise to the challenge, it does seem to be logical and reasonable to insist on determining a procedure, or protocol, in advance, to be able to say, yes or no, you have done what you claimed.

One of the invaluable lessons from the JREF, the MDC, and Randi. Lets see if something is true or not. In advance, let us come up with a method we both can accept. Otherwise, what is the point?

[Starrman]

To be precise, I am asking what you would accept as evidence, in regards to an 'earthshaking' discovery that didn't get mass coverage. While it may seem like nitpicking, it illustrates the same issue that arises in the MDC. (see, now we are on topic, sort of)

First, what is meant by an 'earthshaking' discovery ?

What is meant by mass coverage?

And btw, thanks for the response, because it helped clarify a constant issue that I see with messages like ours, the problem of language and meaning. I know this can be construed as pedantic, and the thought of a troll jumping in screaming SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS! YOU ARE AVOIDING THE ISSUE WITH SEMANTICS! does come to mind.

As with the MDC, I think it is vital that a protocol is worked out in advance, that both parties agree to, before any claim can be said to be proved, or demonstrated.

Of course, I could be clever, and turn this around on those claiming a "real" psychic would get mass coverage, and insist they prove it. Then the protocol would be how do you prove that claim?

It really is funny, if you take the same concept of the MDC and apply it to many claims made by skeptics, who have nothing but belief to back up their commentary. The angry jumping up and down and screaming, is almost woo like.

No no, not you, the other people. You would never do that.

While I do indeed have a few examples, and the first impulse is to just state them, experience has shown, the most likely response will be either silence, (thread death), or dismissal by claiming it doesn't meet the (unstated) criteria for 'earthshaking', or 'mass coverage,'both of which may be true, but without knowing what we mean by these terms, it is impossible to tell.

Agreed? While I doubt anyone will actually rise to the challenge, it does seem to be logical and reasonable to insist on determining a procedure, or protocol, in advance, to be able to say, yes or no, you have done what you claimed.

One of the invaluable lessons from the JREF, the MDC, and Randi. Lets see if something is true or not. In advance, let us come up with a method we both can accept. Otherwise, what is the point?

An example I just though of - Cold Fusion. Remember when 2 scientists claimed they acheived it? Bang! Cover of Time Magazine, huge media impact.

I don't want to get in a semantics war either, so I guess we'll disagree on weather a scientifically verified psychic would get a large amount of attention. And I'm certainly not holding my breath for any real psychics to step forward and settle the argument. :)

[robinson]

It was wrong of you, Robinson, to tell the Prophet Yahweh that. How rude!
:D

Perhaps, but the rules are the rules, and UFO's do not qualify for the MDC.

Lots of stuff doesn't qualify.

[robinson]

I have discovered a way to pre-test people before I ask them to go for the MDC.

You Are 40% Psychic

http://images.blogthings.com/areyoupsychicquiz/psychic.jpg

You are barely psychic.
Sure, you sometimes predict things...
But is it a matter of luck? Or something more?
Pay closer attention to your first intuitions
You may be more psychic than you know!

Are You Psychic?

http://www.blogthings.com/areyoupsychicquiz/