Jesus was a magician

[ldmitruk]

Hi,

I saw an article in todays paper about a series to be broadcast on the Discovery Channel on the Miracles of Jesus. From the Discovery Channel's web site description of episode 1:

"Christian illusionist Brock Gill journeys to the Holy Land to investigate the miracles of Jesus. Did he use hypnosis, magic tricks, or were they real miracles? Using drama, CGI and time-slice, Gill recreates the miracles of Jesus."

This looks like it could be interesting. I find interesting a Christian illusionist is doing the investigating. It should also be interesting what his conclusions are and how the fundies react if he says Jesus was nothing more than an illusionist.

Broadcasting in Canada on Discovery Civilization starting on Nov. 7 and Nov 17 on Discovery Channel in the U.S.

Cheers!

[Dazed]

Interesting... it would be lame if he concluded that they were real miracles, and used the fact that he's an illusionist to imply that he can't be fooled by tricks so they must be real miracles.

A stunt like that would be right up discovery channel's alley.

[Loss Leader]

I guess it's an interesting idea but it appears to me to be fundamentally misguided. There is very close to no evidence that Jesus even existed let alone performed miracles in the Roman records or the records of the Jewish authorities. The people living at the time of Jesus did leave us historical documents but there is no Jesus to be found. If someone saw a miracle, he didn't bother writing it down in a way that would preserve it.

Instead, the only evidence about Jesus' life and miracles is found in the gospels - the stories written by the guys who were trying to promote Jesus as the messiah. That's like relying on Montel Williams for all of our information on Sylia Browne.

So here are two possibilities: Jesus performed his miracles through trickery that, at the time, was sufficiently new and obscure to fool everybody; or Jesus did not perform miracles and his over-zealous biographers deluded themselves or just made stuff up to make the story better.

These are not, of course, the only possibilities. But of those two, I like the second one.

[gfunkusarelius]

i was going to guess they would pull what Dazed said. at least to some extent, i could see them concluding something totally inconclusive... "well as we saw, some of the events of the bible could be accomplished by clever conjuring, but how could they all be explained? some are just too great to write off as parlour ticks." or something to that extent. something that would draw in the non christians but not peeve the christians. and i am betting they will play on the magicians expertise as strong evidence that jesus couldnt have been simply a magician.

[Cuddles]

i was going to guess they would pull what Dazed said. at least to some extent, i could see them concluding something totally inconclusive... "well as we saw, some of the events of the bible could be accomplished by clever conjuring, but how could they all be explained? some are just too great to write off as parlour ticks." or something to that extent. something that would draw in the non christians but not peeve the christians. and i am betting they will play on the magicians expertise as strong evidence that jesus couldnt have been simply a magician.

It's the old UFO argument - some of them have been explained, so all the ones that haven't must be real. A magician can do some of Jesus' tricks, so the ones he can't do must be miracles.

[Bikewer]

There are instances of scam artists in history before Jesus, so the techniques were probably floating around....

"Hey Pete, go hire that Lazarus dude to play dead this weekend..." That sort of thing.

I already had a good explanation for the "loaves and fishes" thing..."Here, have a nice fish!"
"Eeew, they're off. Pass it on."


Seriously, I'm inclined to agree that the "miracles" are merely folkloric tales added on to the story of Jesus to establish his bona fides as a Messiah.

[Starthinker]

I had some Crystal Lite packets fall through a wormhole the other day. If they did go back in time and Jesus got a hold of them, would the crowd think that he turned water into wine? Or would the lack of a buzz give it away?

[Dazed]

There are instances of scam artists in history before Jesus, so the techniques were probably floating around....

"Hey Pete, go hire that Lazarus dude to play dead this weekend..." That sort of thing.

I already had a good explanation for the "loaves and fishes" thing..."Here, have a nice fish!"
"Eeew, they're off. Pass it on."


Seriously, I'm inclined to agree that the "miracles" are merely folkloric tales added on to the story of Jesus to establish his bona fides as a Messiah.

If you're familiar with the bible, you'll have read that Jesus was raised by the temple priests from a very young age. Back in that day, the priests were the magicians. The same applies to Moses, was taught his tricks by the pharaoh's priests, that's why they could perform the 'miracle' of turning their rods into snakes as well.

[Overman]

The title of this thread is a good song lyric.

[casebro]

Lessee what we can come up with for explanations:

Curing lepers- misdagnosis?

Turning water into wine? The vintner ran out of wine vessels, used water bottles instead? only the 'boy' found out when he clumsily tipped over a water bottle. Kids.

Fishs? use one for bait, catch 10 more.

Walking on water? slightly submerged stones.

Your turn.

[Jocky]

Lessee what we can come up with for explanations:
[snip]
Your turn.

Raising the dead - very severe misdiagnosis

Feeding the five thousand - bistromathics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bistromathic_drive)

Good game!

[bjb]

If you're familiar with the bible, you'll have read that Jesus was raised by the temple priests from a very young age. Back in that day, the priests were the magicians. The same applies to Moses, was taught his tricks by the pharaoh's priests, that's why they could perform the 'miracle' of turning their rods into snakes as well.

That's something that really bothered me about those bible stories. How could the Egyptian priests turn a rod into a snake when the only real power in the world is God? Also, in the story of Joseph, how could the pharoh have phophetic dreams? Why would God send a leader of non-believer such dreams? It all seemed very bad and wrong to me when I was a kid. Now I think these were old folk tales that got passed along and found their way into people's religions. The stories are not consistent with monotheism but maybe they were so popular that people didn't seem to notice.

[Soapy Sam]

I remember the Rev. William Barclay (Church of Scotland) pointing out that a miracle is what you make of it.

The miracle of the loaves and fishes was getting those who had brought food to share with those who had not.
The miracle of the sea of Galilee was not calming the storm, but calming the men.

That sort of miracle I can believe in.

[Loss Leader]

Also, in the story of Joseph, how could the pharoh have phophetic dreams? Why would God send a leader of non-believer such dreams?

One can only imagine that the people of Egypt were beset with prophetic dreams in order to cause Pharoh to turn to Joseph for help.

This is fun. It's like trying to explain the inconsistencies in Star Trek episodes. Why was Kirk's name on his gravestone in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" written as "James R. Kirk" when his middle name was Tyberius? Did Gary Mitchell forget his friend's name? Perhaps his powers were already failing. WE MAY NEVER KNOW!!!!!:eye-poppi

[Marc L]

That's something that really bothered me about those bible stories. How could the Egyptian priests turn a rod into a snake when the only real power in the world is God?

If I remember the bible quote correctly (I don't have time to look it up right now), it says that they did it through their 'secret arts' or some such. Probably an allusion to conjuring.

Also, in the story of Joseph, how could the pharoh have phophetic dreams? Why would God send a leader of non-believer such dreams?

Not to be pedantic, but, why not? Look at St. Paul. He used to be severely anti-Christian, and then God supposedly gave him a vision on the road to Damascus. Why him? The pharoh at the time of Joseph was at the very least not anti-Semitic.

It all seemed very bad and wrong to me when I was a kid. Now I think these were old folk tales that got passed along and found their way into people's religions. The stories are not consistent with monotheism but maybe they were so popular that people didn't seem to notice.

Agreed.

Marc

[Pup]

If God were a magician:

http://www.youdamnkid.com/d/20061024.html

[Jorghnassen]

I haven't read You Damn Kid in a while. His God looks like Santa.

/loved the Christ scientist one...

[luchog]

If you're familiar with the bible, you'll have read that Jesus was raised by the temple priests from a very young age. Back in that day, the priests were the magicians.

No.

Rabbi (Rebbe) then, as now, are strictly teachers, expositors, and interpreters of the Halachah (Law), as codified in the various texts and commentaries -- Torah, Talmud/Mishnah, and to some sects the Beit Yosef/Shulchan Aruch -- and to a lesser extent, the history of the Jewish peoples. They exist as an adjunt to (and interim replacement of) the position of the Cohanim (the Aaronic priesthood), until the re-institution of the Temple and the practice of the Sacrifices.

The traditions of the Kabbalah is a much more recent development, and is still highly controversial among Orthodox Judaism; as well as having multiple forms and interpretations ranging from a simple esotericism/hidden-knowledge tradition to a full-out magical practice (though tending far more toward the former). It's also important to differentiate between actual Kabbalah traditions and mere folklore.

Some mystical traditions did exist prior to the time of Christ, but they were sporadic and unsystemized; and generally considered either heretical or at least suspect departures from true Law. Its study was banned by many Jewish sects prior to the late-Middle Ages/early-Rennaisance. It's generally believed that it did not come into being as a full tradition until several centuries after, most likely cross-influential with the various Gnostic traditions which developed at the time; and it's peak -- particularly as a magical, rather than knowledge, tradition -- was during the Rennaisance period, popularized by Rabbi Luria. It's early development seems to have been greatly influenced by Platonic tradition.

[Loss Leader]

No.

Rabbi (Rebbe) then, as now, are strictly teachers, expositors, and interpreters of the Halachah (Law), as codified in the various texts and commentaries -- Torah, Talmud/Mishnah, and to some sects the Beit Yosef/Shulchan Aruch -- and to a lesser extent, the history of the Jewish peoples.

Agreed. Basically, Jews did not go in for magic tricks. We are not and never have been a particularly miracle-driven people. In fact, asking God for any sign of his power whatsoever is considered, if not heretical, then at least extremely poor mannered.

[ChristineR]

All of Jesus' miracles have been reproduced by illusionists. Even if the gospel accounts are 100% accurate we simply don't have enough information to know if trickery could have used.

Obviously turning water into wine would be a genuine miracle, but there is not enough information in the story to know if the party-giver was distracted long enough for someone to swap the jars.

Raising the dead would be a genuine miracle, but Lazarus could have been a plant, and we don't know who examined Lazarus and pronounced him dead in the first place.

And on and on. You can interpret it as myth, as fiction, as trickery, as exaggeration of real events, or as miracle.

[George152]

If you're familiar with the bible, you'll have read that Jesus was raised by the temple priests from a very young age. Back in that day, the priests were the magicians. The same applies to Moses, was taught his tricks by the pharaoh's priests, that's why they could perform the 'miracle' of turning their rods into snakes as well.

But but but there were no catholic priests back then to show the gullible how to change their 'rods' into 'snakes' ...
ROTFL

[jimtron]

All of Jesus' miracles have been reproduced by illusionists. Even if the gospel accounts are 100% accurate we simply don't have enough information to know if trickery could have used.

Obviously turning water into wine would be a genuine miracle, but there is not enough information in the story to know if the party-giver was distracted long enough for someone to swap the jars.

Raising the dead would be a genuine miracle, but Lazarus could have been a plant, and we don't know who examined Lazarus and pronounced him dead in the first place.

And on and on. You can interpret it as myth, as fiction, as trickery, as exaggeration of real events, or as miracle.

I agree. We all know how easy it is these days to fool people; I would imagine in Jebus' time it was even easier.

[Dazed]

Agreed. Basically, Jews did not go in for magic tricks. We are not and never have been a particularly miracle-driven people. In fact, asking God for any sign of his power whatsoever is considered, if not heretical, then at least extremely poor mannered.

I have to disagree with this. The jews were constantly feeling Moses was full of ****, but he had god living in a golden box that magically killed anyone who questioned him.

If the jews were not a miracle-driven people, please justify this bible passage.

Numbers 16
Korah, Dathan and Abiram
1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent [a] 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"

4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put fire and incense in them before the LORD. The man the LORD chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!"

[snip]

35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=4&chapter=16&version=31


For those who find reading bible passages painful, I'll summarize.
250 israelite community leaders say "Hey moses you're full of ****!" Moses goes, "oh yeah? tell that to the ARK!" so they go to the ark and it kills them all. Then moses goes "Anyone else got a problem, BITCH!?" and no one does. The end.

Before moses manipulated them, the jews were a deeply pagan people, remember.
He went up a mountain for a few hours to get the commandments from god and by the time he had got back they had melted down all their jewlery to make a golden bull to worship. Of course moses is pissed, because he wants to be their god, so Aaron tells him "Do not be angry, my lord, You know how prone these people are to evil." (exodus 32:22)
So, "the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made." Or moses put something in their water... the early books of the bible are the story of moses, armed with the tricks of pharoah's magicians, manipulating a deeply superstitious, uneducated group of people, to believe that he was in personal contact with God.

Regarding the ark of the covenant itself, look at the obvious physical parallels between it and the egyptian ark of horus. If you look closely you can even see 2 cherubim, wings outstretched, engraved on the side.

[Loss Leader]

I have to disagree with this. The jews were constantly feeling Moses was full of ****, but he had god living in a golden box that magically killed anyone who questioned him.

If the jews were not a miracle-driven people, please justify this bible passage.



Yeah, well I don't actually disagree with anything you said. However, I wasn't referring to the Hebrews of the Old Testament. I was referring to the Jews. When did the Hebrews become the Jews? I don't know exactly. I would say that the transformation was entirely complete by the destruction of the second temple which was before Jesus.

So, acknowledging that my religion was born of pagan parents, I stand by my statement that Jews had embraced an invisible, etherial God and were not demanding miracles of their religious leaders by the time of Jesus. This is in contrast to the societies of the Aztecs or Mayans whose priests were known to practice conjuring, ventriloquism and other cheap tricks for the masses.

[CurtC]

There are instances of scam artists in history before Jesus, so the techniques were probably floating around...
Well, that's a huge understatement. It's already been mentioned that we have near zero reliable evidence of Jesus's existence. The gospel of Mark (the first gospel) was written several decades after Jesus would have died, and in-between the death and the gospel of Mark, we have only the writings of Paul. But Paul didn't seem to be aware of the concept that Jesus was in human form actually walking the Earth.

All those accounts of his life and miracles are from the later gospels, and every single miraculous thing about Jesus, from the virgin birth, healing, turning water to wine and feeding thousands with a few fish, right through the mortal death and ascension into heaven, already existed in the popular culture of the day, but was done by other people/gods.

So yes, you could say that the techniques had been floating around already.

[Starthinker]

Here's how I picture it going down. A woman gets pregnant from her boyfriend in a day and age where this carries extreme punishments. In a panic to explain her condition she blurts out that "hey, angels told me I would get pregnant while still a virgin." Others take her at her word. It escalates from there. Hilarity ensues.

[Loss Leader]

Here's how I picture it going down. A woman gets pregnant from her boyfriend in a day and age where this carries extreme punishments. In a panic to explain her condition she blurts out that "hey, angels told me I would get pregnant while still a virgin." Others take her at her word. It escalates from there. Hilarity ensues.

Actually, the truth is much sadder than that. At the time of the writing of the gospels, the literary fashion was that true heroes had to have had some sort of amazing or miraculous birth. There should have been a sign at birth that this person would become a hero. It was like the idea of the love story today - the guy wll get the girl, the audience just demands it.

This trend is seen in the stories of Moses (let go into the rushes and adopted by the princess) and Ceaser (born by a method so amazing it was named after him).

The truth about Mary's virgin birth is that the entire thing conforms so well to the literary style of the time that it is likely it was all just made up by the story-tellers.

[Bob Klase]

Hi,
I saw an article in todays paper about a series to be broadcast on the Discovery Channel on the Miracles of Jesus. From the Discovery Channel's web site description of episode 1:

"Christian illusionist Brock Gill journeys to the Holy Land to investigate the miracles of Jesus. Did he use hypnosis, magic tricks, or were they real miracles? Using drama, CGI and time-slice, Gill recreates the miracles of Jesus.
Cheers!

I watched this when it aired a year ago. Don't know if it says something about me or about the show, but I really don't remember much about it.

If you can't wait till Discovery runs it, you can buy the DVD:

http://www.moviesunlimited.com/musite/product.asp?sku=D89095&mscssid=1CHNTQBX9L8T8HK0J4JR2H7RQC7N5LED

[Ipecac]

Yeah, the whole concept of trying to figure out if Jesus was a miracle-worker or magician is like trying to figure out the same thing about Gandalf. Pointless.

[CynicalSkeptic]

I'm a newbie, so I can't post URLs, but if you go to youtube dot com, and search for "Jesus Blaine", you get a pretty fun video.

[Liken]

Welcome fellow newbie CynicalSkeptic,

I performed said search. Are you talking about the one titled "Muslims, Jesus, and David Blaine??"?

I think this video proves that Ted Haggard isn't the only fundie around that needs to seriously reconsider his nasty meth habit. This guy is nuts!

Liken

[Fronzel]

Interesting... it would be lame if he concluded that they were real miracles, and used the fact that he's an illusionist to imply that he can't be fooled by tricks so they must be real miracles.

A stunt like that would be right up discovery channel's alley.


There was a clip I'd found on Youtube with a Magician walking on water and saying it is a trick and while he could fool millions of people, Jesus wouldn't be able to fool 12 people that thought the sun was magical.

Basically he was saying Jesus did it for real.

[Cuddles]

Here's how I picture it going down. A woman gets pregnant from her boyfriend in a day and age where this carries extreme punishments. In a panic to explain her condition she blurts out that "hey, angels told me I would get pregnant while still a virgin." Others take her at her word. It escalates from there. Hilarity ensues.

I always figured it was something like The Life of Brian. "If it's not a personal question..."

There was a clip I'd found on Youtube with a Magician walking on water and saying it is a trick and while he could fool millions of people, Jesus wouldn't be able to fool 12 people that thought the sun was magical.

Basically he was saying Jesus did it for real.

I think "water" was just a mistranslation of "custard". Obviously he'd seen Brainiac and thought a big party was a sensible time to try it for himself, especially after all that fish and wine.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Welcome fellow newbie CynicalSkeptic,

I performed said search. Are you talking about the one titled "Muslims, Jesus, and David Blaine??"?


Nope, I'm talking about the one titled "Jesus VS David Blaine". It's a clip from South Park.

[Liken]

Yeah, South Park's classic. Check out the other one.

Liken

[CynicalSkeptic]

I performed said search. Are you talking about the one titled "Muslims, Jesus, and David Blaine??"


Check out the other one.

Ouch, that was painful. And great reasoning "Obviously the early Christians got it right (as opposed to the Muslims and jews) because it would be ridiculous to make up such ridiculous **** that they were killed for their beliefs."

Right, nobody else was ever killed for their religious beliefs, only Christians. :rolleyes: