George W.: Liar or Moron or Both?

[Crossbow]

Can Bush Be Both Ignorant and a Liar?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2084730/

There is a great article in Slate magazine about the numerous incorrect things Bush has said and done about Tax Cuts and Iraq, and the article concludes with:

In Corn's view, the key to Bush's lies isn't necessarily that he doesn't know any better, but that he doesn't care. "He mischaracterizes situations to fit his pattern of thinking," Corn explained. "Does he believe he's lying? I don't know." But "he still should be held accountable, whether he made a mistake of this nature in good faith or in bad faith." Amen.

[Ladyhawk]

No more than most of his predecessors....;)

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Can Bush Be Both Ignorant and a Liar?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2084730/

There is a great article in Slate magazine about the numerous incorrect things Bush has said and done about Tax Cuts and Iraq, and the article concludes with:

In Corn's view, the key to Bush's lies isn't necessarily that he doesn't know any better, but that he doesn't care. "He mischaracterizes situations to fit his pattern of thinking," Corn explained. "Does he believe he's lying? I don't know." But "he still should be held accountable, whether he made a mistake of this nature in good faith or in bad faith." Amen.



could you please post another topic about how you think Bush is stupid ?

they're so interesting to read.

here.....post one that says this :

Is Bush Stupid, Ignorant, Racist, Unhygenic, Greedy, and a Liar ?

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



could you please post another topic about how you think Bush is stupid ?

they're so interesting to read.

here.....post one that says this :

Is Bush Stupid, Ignorant, Racist, Unhygenic, Greedy, and a Liar ?





I don't think Bush is unhygenic.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
could you please post another topic about how you think Bush is stupid ?


http://slate.msn.com/id/2064466/

Bush II administration lies are often so laughably obvious that you wonder why they bother. Until you realize: They haven't bothered. If telling the truth was less bother, they'd try that too. The characteristic Bush II form of dishonesty is to construct an alternative reality on some topic and to regard anyone who objects to it as a sniveling dweeb obsessed with "nuance," which the president of this class, I mean of the United States, has more important things to do than worry about.

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



could you please post another topic about how you think Bush is stupid ?

they're so interesting to read.

here.....post one that says this :

Is Bush Stupid, Ignorant, Racist, Unhygenic, Greedy, and a Liar ?




You should start drinking water.

[Kodiak]

You and subgenius should start a tag team...

[Skeptic]

George Bush: Did he stop beating his wife or not?

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Skeptic
George Bush: Did he stop beating his wife or not?

We'll get to that after the President tells us whether he disposed of Hoffa's body in Lake Erie or in Giant's Stadium.

[RichardR]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
No more than most of his predecessors....;) Much more.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



could you please post another topic about how you think Bush is stupid ?

they're so interesting to read.

here.....post one that says this :

Is Bush Stupid, Ignorant, Racist, Unhygenic, Greedy, and a Liar ?





I am not sorry if you do not like it.

I think the war was wrong and America will be paying for it long after George W. is out of office and enjoying a good retirement.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Crossbow


I am not sorry if you do not like it.

I think the war was wrong and America will be paying for it long after George W. is out of office and enjoying a good retirement.


and I think you're a moron for thinking that !

woo hoo !

[Leroy]

:D I love the quotes of politicians. These are some of the funniest.

Quotes From President Bush:

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
--Reuters, May 5, 2000

"I was raised in the West. The west of Texas. It's pretty close to
California. In more ways than Washington, D.C., is close to
California." --Los Angeles Times, April 8, 2000

"There needs to be debates, like we're going through. There needs to be townhall meetings. There needs to be travel. This is a huge country." --Larry King Live, Dec. 16, 1999

"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." --U.S. News & World Report, April 3, 2000

"Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning"
--Florence, SC, Jan. 11, 2000

"Actually, I -- this may sound a little West Texan to you, but I like
it. When I'm talking about -- when I'm talking about myself, and when he's talking about myself, all of us are talking about me."
--Hardball, MSNBC, May 31, 2000

"I think we agree, the past is over."
--On his meeting with John McCain, Dallas Morning News, May 10, 2000

"Laura and I really don't realize how bright our children is sometime until we get an objective analysis."
--Meet the Press, April 15, 2000

"We want our teachers to be trained so they can meet the obligations; their obligations as teachers. We want them to know how to teach the science of reading. In order to make sure there's not this kind of federal cufflink."
--Fritsche Middle School, Milwaukee, March 30, 2000

"The fact that he relies on facts -- says things that are not factual
-- are going to undermine his campaign." --New York Times, March 4, 2000

"It is not Reaganesque to support a tax plan that is Clinton in
nature." --Los Angeles, Feb. 23, 2000

"I understand small business growth. I was one."
--New York Daily News, Feb. 19, 2000

"How do you know if you don't measure if you have a system that simply suckles kids through?" --Explaining the need for educational accountability, Beaufort, S.C.,Feb.16, 2000

"The senator has got to understand if he's going to have he can't have it both ways. He can't take the high horse and then claim the low road." --To reporters in Florence, S.C., Feb. 17, 2000

"If you're sick and tired of the politics of cynicism and polls and
PRINCIPLES, come and join this campaign." --Hilton Head, S.C., Feb. 16, 2000

"We ought to make the pie higher." -South Carolina Republican Debate, Feb. 15, 2000

"I've changed my style somewhat, as you know. I'm less, I pontificate less, although it may be hard to tell it from this show. And I'm more interacting with people." --Meet The Press, Feb. 13, 2000

"I think we need not only to eliminate the tollbooth to the middle
class, I think we should knock down the tollbooth." --Nashua, N.H., as quoted by Gail Collins, New York Times, Feb. 1, 2000

"The most important job is not to be governor, or first lady in my
case." --Pella, Iowa, as quoted in the San Antonio Express News, Jan. 30, 2000"

"This is Preservation Month. I appreciate preservation. It's what you do when you run for president. You gotta preserve."
--Speaking during Perseverance Month at Fairgrounds Elementary School in Nashua, N.H.

"It's your money. You paid for it." --LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
--Greater Nashua, N.H., Chamber of Commerce, Jan. 27, 2000

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and
uncertainty and potential mental losses." --At a South Carolina oyster roast; quoted in the Financial Times, Jan.14, 2000

"The important question is, How many hands have I shaked?"
--Answering a question about why he hasn't spent more time in New Hampshire; quoted in the New York Times, Oct. 23, 1999

"When it is all said and done, I will have made more money than I ever dreamed I would make." --Source & Date unknown

"I don't remember debates. I don't think we spent a lot of time
debating it. Maybe we did, but I don't remember." --On discussing the Vietnam War as an undergraduate at Yale, in the Washington Post, July 27, 1999

"I did denounce it. I de-I denounced it. I denounced interracial
dating. I denounced anti-Catholic bigacy... bigotry." --Referring to his Bob Jones University visit and the subsequent criticism,
Virginia, February 25, 2000

"We must all hear the universal call to like your neighbor just like
you like to be liked yourself." --George W. Bush puts an interesting twist on Jesus Christ's proverb: "Love thy neighbor." (Quote is from the Financial Times)

"I would have said yes to abortion if only it was right. I mean, yeah it's right. Well no it's not right that's why I said no to it."
--South Carolina, February 14,2000

"My [tax cut] plan is realistic because it avoids meaningless 15-year projections." --George W. Bush goes to extraordinary lengths to defend his tax cut plan. (Quote is from a Bush speech in Iowa, 12/1/99)

"The fundamental question is: 'Will I be a successful president when it comes to foreign policy?' I will be, but until I'm the president, it's going to be hard for me to verify that I think I'll be more effective." --New York Times, 7/28/99

"There ought to limits to freedom" --at a Press conference at the Texas State House, May 21, 1999, referring to GWBush.com

"We have struggle to not proceed but to preceed to the future of a nation's child." --Journal Gazette 11/12/00

"My opponent seems to think that Social Security is a federal program. I believe that money is yours and you should be able to invest it yourself." -The final Presidential debate

"Down in Washington they're playing with Social Security like it's some kind of government program!" -NBC Nightly News (Date unknown)

"The reason we start a war is to fight a war, win a war, thereby
causing no more war!" --The first Presidential debate

"They said, 'You know, this issue doesn't seem to resignate [sic] with the people.' And I said, you know something? Whether it resignates [sic] or not doesn't matter to me, because I stand for doing what's the right thing, and what the right thing is hearing the voices of people who work. --Portland, Ore., Oct. 31, 2000

"It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet. -Arlington Heights, Ill., Oct. 24, 2000

"If affirmative action means what I just described, what I'm for, then I'm for it." --The Presidential Debates. St. Louis, Mo., October 18, 2000

"It's going to require numerous IRA agents."
--On Gore's tax plan, Greensboro, N.C., Oct. 10, 2000

"I don't think we need to be subliminable [sic] about the differences between our views on prescription drugs."
--Orlando, Fla., Sept. 12, 2000. He then repeatedly mispronounced the word after his press conference.

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
--Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?"
--Concord, N.H., Jan. 29, 2000

"It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas."
--Beaverton, Ore., Sep. 25, 2000

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as
long as I'm the dictator..." --Washington, DC, Dec 18, 2000, during his first trip to Washington as President-Elect

"They misunderestimated me." --Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000

"That's a chapter, the last chapter of the 20th, 20th, the 21st century that most of us would rather forget. The last chapter of the 20th century. This is the first chapter of the 21st century."
--On the Lewinsky scandal, Arlington Heights, Ill., Oct. 24, 2000"

"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." —LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000"

"There's a huge trust. I see it all the time when people come up to me and say, "I don't want you to let me down again.'"
— Boston, Massachusetts, October 3, 2000

"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to
answer questions. I can't answer your question"
--Reynoldsburg, Ohio, October 4, 2000

"You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a
literacy test." --February 21, 2001 - President Bush at Townsend Elementary School,

There's more here Bush Quotes (http://www.lifeisajoke.com/politics23_html.htm)

[Tricky]

Liar? Every politician is a liar. In fact, possibly every person posting here has lied at some time in their lives. The difference is in what you lie about. My personal opinion is that GWB's lies are more important than, oh, say, lying about your age. But we all make judgments about what are "acceptable lies".

Moron? Certainly not, at least given the definition: (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?Moron)
1 : a mentally retarded person who has a potential mental age of between 8 and 12 years and is capable of doing routine work under supervision.
2 : a very stupid person
Obviously 1 is not true. I think it is equally obvious that 2 is not true. He's probably not even the stupidest president we have ever had, though that is debatable. Still, he is clever enough to surround himself with people who make him look good enough to get millions of them to vote for him.

So lets just stick to, "I think Bush has made some very bad decisions", and leave the character attacks out of it.

[Mike B.]

interesting well balanced post Tricky...:)

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



and I think you're a moron for thinking that !

woo hoo !

To: Nie Trink Wasser

Thanks for sharing your opinion!

[Leroy]

Still, he is clever enough to surround himself with people who make him look good enough to get millions of them to vote for him.

Whether or not they voted for him is still unproven.

[Alaric]

It strikes me as odd that Republicans say only democratic presidents lie and democrats say only republican presidents lie. WTF is wrong with people? I figured to enter politics lying was a prerequisite.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Crossbow


To: Nie Trink Wasser

Thanks for sharing your opinion!

A well-stated, cogent opinion, N.T.W. I agree.

[Ladewig]

Still, he is clever enough to surround himself with people who make him look good enough to get millions of them to vote for him.


I always thought that it was more a matter of the clever people surrounding him.


As for all the mis-statements from GWB. I, too thought he was rather dense until I read The Bush Dyslexicon: Observations on a National Disorder by M.C. Miller. Then I realized that GWB can speak extemporaneously when he is talking about a subject that he likes. The catch is that he is not that knowledgeable about economics, foreign afffairs, and international history.



"We are resolved to rout out terror wherever it exists to save the world from freedom." - Jan. 31, 2002 (Atlanta)

[RichardR]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Then I realized that GWB can speak extemporaneously when he is talking about a subject that he likes. The catch is that he is not that knowledgeable about economics, foreign afffairs, and international history. Aren't those the very things a President needs to know the most about?

[subgenius]

Originally posted by KelvinG


I don't think Bush is unhygenic.
Actually check out my thread "Dubya: A Soul Brother".
No one on his staff bothered to tell him his shirt was stained.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Can Bush Be Both Ignorant and a Liar?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2084730/

There is a great article in Slate magazine about the numerous incorrect things Bush has said and done about Tax Cuts and Iraq, and the article concludes with:

In Corn's view, the key to Bush's lies isn't necessarily that he doesn't know any better, but that he doesn't care. "He mischaracterizes situations to fit his pattern of thinking," Corn explained. "Does he believe he's lying? I don't know." But "he still should be held accountable, whether he made a mistake of this nature in good faith or in bad faith." Amen.

But he likes the Temptations.:cool: :rolleyes:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1869971751#post1869971751

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Can Bush Be Both Ignorant and a Liar?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2084730/

There is a great article in Slate magazine about the numerous incorrect things Bush has said and done about Tax Cuts and Iraq, and the article concludes with:

In Corn's view, the key to Bush's lies isn't necessarily that he doesn't know any better, but that he doesn't care. "He mischaracterizes situations to fit his pattern of thinking," Corn explained. "Does he believe he's lying? I don't know." But "he still should be held accountable, whether he made a mistake of this nature in good faith or in bad faith." Amen.

This is the same George Bush right that stated uncategorically while governor of Texas:

Everyone on death row is guilty.

No mentally handicapped people have ever been executed.

Justice Texas Style (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14959&highlight=justice+Texas)

Perhaps it's a matter of the Plenck problem. Perhaps Bush has great confidence in his ideologies.

[corplinx]

What is so profound about the slate pandering to its audience? Its simply giving them what they want to hear.

An article called "Is the Slate drivel or pap?" run by Newsmax would be just as insightful.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Leroy
:D I love the quotes of politicians. These are some of the funniest.

Quotes From President Bush:

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
--Reuters, May 5, 2000

"I was raised in the West. The west of Texas. It's pretty close to
California. In more ways than Washington, D.C., is close to
California." --Los Angeles Times, April 8, 2000

......

"You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a
literacy test." --February 21, 2001 - President Bush at Townsend Elementary School,

There's more here Bush Quotes (http://www.lifeisajoke.com/politics23_html.htm)

Now this is really unfair.

These quotes make G.W.Bush sound like an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman.

There must be checks and balances in place to prevent democratic nations being led by a person like this. If there are then George Bush is not an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman.

Obviously there is an agenda by historical revisionists to portray G.W.Bush as an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman. .

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe

These quotes make G.W.Bush sound like an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman.


Actually, it's George Bush that makes him sound like an uneducated, uniformed, babbling madman.

[Monketey Ghost]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Actually, it's George Bush that makes him sound like an uneducated, uniformed, babbling madman.

You're misunderestimating him. Make the pie higher!

[hammegk]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe


These quotes make G.W.Bush sound like an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman.



Maybe you should report him to the Moderator; Hal should be able to fix any problem to your & Randi's satisfaction.

And cheer up. You can vote for Hilary in 2008. Shes IS a much more accomplished political liar.

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by hammegk


And cheer up. You can vote for Hilary in 2008. Shes IS a much more accomplished political liar.

I certainly will not argue with you on that point, hammegk.

AS

[Mr Manifesto]

I love seeing the reaction when people see their precious president being criticised.

PS- 5500 (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/images/b2_centre.jpg) civilians dead in Iraq and counting!

[Ion]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



and I think you're a moron for thinking that !

woo hoo !
You start thinking now?

You still have long ways to go before making your thinking passable, but don't despair:

you, Bush and hammegk have genuine potential for passable.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe


Now this is really unfair.

These quotes make G.W.Bush sound like an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman.

There must be checks and balances in place to prevent democratic nations being led by a person like this. If there are then George Bush is not an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman.

Obviously there is an agenda by historical revisionists to portray G.W.Bush as an uneducated, uninformed, babbling madman. . :D


hmmm perhaps in hind site I should have included some smilies

It is difficult to convey sarcasm other wise:)

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by hammegk


Maybe you should report him to the Moderator; Hal should be able to fix any problem to your & Randi's satisfaction.

And cheer up. You can vote for Hilary in 2008. Shes IS a much more accomplished political liar.

I can't vote for Hilary or Bush :p I am decidedly out of the country.

as to Hilary being a political liar...

got evidence and sources?


What do you mean SHOULD report him? I already did report Bush to the moderator. Or are you talking about Leroy? ;)

Do you have a beef hammegk? What is it?

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
[/sarcasm]:D


hmmm perhaps in hind site I should have included some smilies

It is difficult to convey sarcasm other wise:)

I should have as well. Irony is a tough trade to dabble in.:D

[peptoabysmal]

Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs. His wife Hillary got $8 million for hers. That's $20 million for the memoirs of two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything. :D

[iMoc]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



and I think you're a moron for thinking that !

woo hoo !

You see, only people who are ignorant and lie find it offensive to hear that "Old Dumbya" is a lying ignoramus.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe


I can't vote for Hilary or Bush :p I am decidedly out of the country.

as to Hilary being a political liar...

got evidence and sources?


What do you mean SHOULD report him? I already did report Bush to the moderator. Or are you talking about Leroy? ;)

Do you have a beef hammegk? What is it?
You're kinda new. He thinks slavery was good for Blacks.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by subgenius

You're kinda new. He thinks slavery was good for Blacks.

Been to Haiti or S. Africa lately? "Freedom" doesn't seem to work.

Then visit ALL of sub-saharan Africa. Tell me what you find you like.

Oh, and before I forget, blow me.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by hammegk


Been to Haiti or S. Africa lately? "Freedom" doesn't seem to work.

Then visit ALL of sub-saharan Africa. Tell me what you find you like.

Oh, and before I forget, blow me.
Why the homosexual proposition? You're proud of your position and I didn't misstate it did I?

[hammegk]

Originally posted by subgenius

Why the homosexual proposition?
Ever heard of the M.Sheppard case?


You're proud of your position and I didn't misstate it did I?
Proud? Not so, and Yes, you did.

My position is that the Afro-Americans (genus Negroid) residing in the US today should fall to their knees every am to thank the great God Bongo of the Congo or whoever that they are no longer in Africa. The US still is a land of opportunity. Dark skin is one strike against a person, but when did you come to believe life is fair?

Also, I notice you failed to address the point of my post. :(

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs. His wife Hillary got $8 million for hers. That's $20 million for the memoirs of two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything. :D

I think you have confused the Clinton's with Regan. Who stated so many times that he couldn't recall, it was astounding that he could even at the pre-alzhiemers time even recall his own name!

[subgenius]

Originally posted by hammegk

Ever heard of the M.Sheppard case?


Proud? Not so, and Yes, you did.

My position is that the Afro-Americans (genus Negroid) residing in the US today should fall to their knees every am to thank the great God Bongo of the Congo or whoever that they are no longer in Africa. The US still is a land of opportunity. Dark skin is one strike against a person, but when did you come to believe life is fair?

Also, I notice you failed to address the point of my post. :(
Haven't heard of the case, and a search didn't find anything.
My apologies for misstating your position.
Of course being grateful to be in the greatest country on earth is different than being grateful for how your ancestors got over here and were treated.
Certainly know life's not fair.
Like the fact that you call yourself Afro-American. We are all Africans.
Let's unhijack the thread and let normal programming resume, shall we. Tho I am curious about M. Sheppard.

[Leroy]

This is quickly becoming my favorite thread :D

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by hammegk


Oh, and before I forget, blow me.

And now you are trying to get the board banned from the schools, I thought you had more brains than that, surely you can come up with a lampoon that will be educational to the kiddies that might view the board.

[Dancing David]

I don't think that Dubya is stupid by any means but I think that he shoots from the hip and makes some major faux paux, as long as he plays to his electorate he will get away with it.

What concerns me is his followers, I don't care why you vote as long asa you know why you vote. Too many followers of the current GOP just vote from habit, they vote because they like to sound byte of history that they are being fed. I am more worried about the poor sap who thinks that we are actualy in Iraq to bring 'freedom' to the Iraqis, than I am that the prez would be so hyperbolic.

Now we come to a better question, which president told the bigger lie?
My vote is for Nixon, he followed in some big foot prints but his whole 'we can win the war', while he was pulling out was kinda of a big fib.

Who else has a presidential fib to share?

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Dancing David


What concerns me is his followers, I don't care why you vote as long asa you know why you vote. Too many followers of the current GOP just vote from habit, they vote because they like to sound byte of history that they are being fed. I am more worried about the poor sap who thinks that we are actualy in Iraq to bring 'freedom' to the Iraqis, than I am that the prez would be so hyperbolic.


Is there evidence that Repubs. just vote from habit more than Democrats?

I mean the Democrats carry big parts of Philadelphia by 90 some percent every election. Are they all super informed voters as opposed to the GOP?

[subgenius]

If this is a poll I vote for lying, drooling, moron.
But he's still a nice guy who likes the Temptations.

[blackpriester]

I think Hammegk is referring to Matthew Shepard, the gay guy beaten to death by some homophobic, bible-thumping mob.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Mike B.


Is there evidence that Repubs. just vote from habit more than Democrats?

I mean the Democrats carry big parts of Philadelphia by 90 some percent every election. Are they all super informed voters as opposed to the GOP?

I don't know about Philly, most of the block voters in Illinois are Republicans, I think that there are probably know nothing democrats as well. Again I just ask that people be informed voters.

The Ross Perot vote was very disturbing, had anyone checked his credentials they would have not voted for him.

How does GWB feel about the Fifth Dimension?

[American]

You need to keep thinking that he's both.

Such underestimation and mischaracterization of republicans has been an essential cause of our recent rise.

We are both truthful and intelligent, but if you wish to act like we're not then that serves us greatly too.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by American
You need to keep thinking that he's both.

Such underestimation and mischaracterization of republicans has been an essential cause of our recent rise.

We are both truthful and intelligent, but if you wish to act like we're not then that serves us greatly too.

SHHHH!

You can't keep giving away our best stuff!! ;)

[hammegk]

Originally posted by blackpriester
I think Hammegk is referring to Matthew Shepard, the gay guy beaten to death by some homophobic, bible-thumping mob.

Two drunk cowboys is a "mob"? And were they avid church-goers? ROFL.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by hammegk


Two drunk cowboys is a "mob"? And were they avid church-goers? ROFL.

Self-righteous ******** who outnumber their victim are always a mob to me.

[DavidJames]

"Two drunk cowboys is a "mob"? And were they avid church-goers? ROFL. "

"Self-righteous ******** who outnumber their victim are always a mob to me."

I don't believe their motivation was directly related to their religious beliefs. I think it was more an all to typical homophobic attitude combined with alcohol, throw in some testosterone and viola, a dead person. The religious homophobes came afterwards, that idiot from Kansas made a big splash.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by DavidJames
"Two drunk cowboys is a "mob"? And were they avid church-goers? ROFL. "

"Self-righteous ******** who outnumber their victim are always a mob to me."

I don't believe their motivation was directly related to their religious beliefs. I think it was more an all to typical homophobic attitude combined with alcohol, throw in some testosterone and viola, a dead person. The religious homophobes came afterwards, that idiot from Kansas made a big splash.

I agree partly.
Note that in my original post, I put "bible-thumping" behing "homophobic", trying to imply the order of importance in which each subject PROBABLY affected their mindset.
Theit beliefs just gave them justification for the attitude they held anyway, I believe.

[DavidJames]

"Theit beliefs just gave them justification for the attitude they held anyway,"

Entirely possible. I don't know where their homophobia came from. Clearly religious beliefs are often the source. I think some men really feel their "manhood" is threatened by homosexual men and for some, that is enough motivation and justification. But again, I don't know.

[Tony]

Originally posted by blackpriester


Self-righteous ******** who outnumber their victim are always a mob to me.


I think you are right, comming from san francisco, you should have a lot of experience encountering self-righteous ********.

[kerfer]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs. His wife Hillary got $8 million for hers. That's $20 million for the memoirs of two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything. :D

:D :D :D :D

That's hilarious.

Kinda sad that it's true, but hilarious!

[Regnad Kcin]

Kinda sad that an unsubstantiated ad-hominem is floated as true.

[kerfer]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Kinda sad that an unsubstantiated ad-hominem is floated as true.

Kinda sad too, that we have such poor memories. :(

Sigh...

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by blackpriester


I agree partly.
Note that in my original post, I put "bible-thumping" behing "homophobic", trying to imply the order of importance in which each subject PROBABLY affected their mindset.
Theit beliefs just gave them justification for the attitude they held anyway, I believe.

Yeah,

The Bible or the Quran or whatever, is used by people who already hate gays, women, or other groups. It gives their bigotry some legitamacy.

After all they are only doing "God's" will...
:(

[aerocontrols]

That Matthew Shephard's killers were Christians.

Is it true? In the past I've looked for evidence, (because it gets asserted nearly every time the case comes up in discussion) but I couldn't ever find any.

MattJ

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by kerfer
Kinda sad too, that we have such poor memories. :(

Sigh... I take exception to your statement if your intent is to include me in your "we." :)

My recollection of the Clinton years is quite good. If you like, please start a thread on the subject. Know, however, that I will have to ask that the standard of proof be a bit more stringent than hyperbolic smear such as "...two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything."

[Lemastre]

Results of a scientific, computer-aided, poll spanning the last 3 minutes and relying on the resources of the Google search engine show that entering the terms "George W Bush +lies +moron" produces about 3,570 references. Eliminating the term"+moron" turns up 170,000, and eliminating "+lies" but leaving in "+moron" yields only 13,400. The idea for this laborious project comes from Molly Ivins' current column. These numbers probably demonstrate only that some other folks are thinking along the lines that this thread originally set out to discuss.

[American]

Originally posted by Lemastre
These numbers probably demonstrate only that some other folks are thinking along the lines that this thread originally set out to discuss.

Let them think it! If they didn't think that way, then Bush might not be in office today.

[Tricky]

Peptoabysmal said
Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs. His wife Hillary got $8 million for hers. That's $20 million for the memoirs of two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
My recollection of the Clinton years is quite good. If you like, please start a thread on the subject. Know, however, that I will have to ask that the standard of proof be a bit more stringent than hyperbolic smear such as "...two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything."
Indeed. I seem to remember the words "I don't recall" being used quite a lot during Watergate, the Savings and Loan scandal and Iran Contra, but not so much during Whitewater. As a matter of fact, the Clintons were completely exonerated in the Whitewater matter, though they had people so desperate to pin anything on them that they went into their sexual behavior because they couldn't find anything else.

It certainly wasn't for lack of trying or lack of funding.

So, Pepto, you want to give us examples (preferably spanning the eight year period you mention) where the Clintons said this?

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I take exception to your statement if your intent is to include me in your "we." :)

My recollection of the Clinton years is quite good. If you like, please start a thread on the subject. Know, however, that I will have to ask that the standard of proof be a bit more stringent than hyperbolic smear such as "...two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything."

Q: If Monica Lewinsky says that... you touched her breast would she be lying?
A: That is not my recollection.

Story (http://www.time.com/time/daily/scandal/testimony/temp.html)

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Tricky



Indeed. I seem to remember the words "I don't recall" being used quite a lot during Watergate, the Savings and Loan scandal and Iran Contra, but not so much during Whitewater. As a matter of fact, the Clintons were completely exonerated in the Whitewater matter, though they had people so desperate to pin anything on them that they went into their sexual behavior because they couldn't find anything else.

It certainly wasn't for lack of trying or lack of funding.

So, Pepto, you want to give us examples (preferably spanning the eight year period you mention) where the Clintons said this?

Why not do your own research to disprove me, ya lazy liberal :D ?

QUESTION: But Vernon Jordan met with you, sir, and he reported that he had met with Monica Lewinsky. And the discussion was about the lawsuit, and you didn't inform under oath the court of that in your deposition.

CLINTON: I gave the best answer I could based on the best memory I had at the time they asked me the question. That's the only answer I can give you, sir.

QUESTION: And...

CLINTON: And I think I may have been confused in my memory because I've also talked to him on the phone about what he said about whether he talked to her or met with her. That's all I can tell you.

Story (http://www.time.com/time/daily/scandal/testimony/temp4.html#a9)

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Tricky
Indeed. I seem to remember the words "I don't recall" being used quite a lot during Watergate, the Savings and Loan scandal and Iran Contra, but not so much during Whitewater. As a matter of fact, the Clintons were completely exonerated in the Whitewater matter, though they had people so desperate to pin anything on them that they went into their sexual behavior because they couldn't find anything else.

It certainly wasn't for lack of trying or lack of funding.

So, Pepto, you want to give us examples (preferably spanning the eight year period you mention) where the Clintons said this?
Well, it is true that Bill’s famous deposition in the Paula Jones case contained hundreds of memory lapses, many of which turned out to have been feigned.

The CNN.com article (http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/20/whitewater/) about the conclusion of Robert Ray’s investigation says:Questioned in 1996 about her work for Madison [Guaranty Savings & Loan], Mrs. Clinton said on 99 occasions that she was unable to recall what she might have done.

The billing records revealed Mrs. Clinton and [Seth] Ward spoke at least 15 times from mid-November 1985 to June 1986 about a portion of the Whitewater development known as Castle Grande, as well as other business related to [Madison]. Mrs. Clinton and Ward insisted they didn't recall the conversations.
Also, the article mentions that “Mrs. Clinton's role was disclosed in 1996 when her law firm billing records mysteriously turned up in the White House family residence under circumstances that have never been adequately explained.” She had claimed repeatedly not to recall what happened to those records.

If Jay Leno had said the "two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything" line, everyone would chuckle because we'd all recognize the basis of the gibe: that there were a number of well-publicized episodes of forgetfulness on the Clintons' part while Bill was in office. That's all: a rhetorical turn of phrase to convey a legitimate point. Calling it a "hyperbolic smear", or taking an excessively literal interpretation, might be mistaken for a bit of mala fides.

EDITED TO ADD: I think the term "completely exonerated" overstates the conclusion of the Whitewater investigation. There was certainly some evidence of wrongdoing, but it was deemed insufficient to support a criminal conviction.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
If Jay Leno had said the "two people who for eight years repeatedly testified they couldn't remember anything" line, everyone would chuckle because we'd all recognize the basis of the gibe: that there were a number of well-publicized episodes of forgetfulness on the Clintons' part while Bill was in office. That's all: a rhetorical turn of phrase to convey a legitimate point. Calling it a "hyperbolic smear", or taking an excessively literal interpretation, might be mistaken for a bit of mala fides. Again, I believe we are seriously off-topic. However, I'll respond.

Your "rhetorical phrase" may be just that, but "a legitimate point" it ain't. On the contrary, it is a statement made to appear damning in the light of people's tendancy to consider such matters as black or white. If I ask you one-thousand questions of great or little consequence relating to various events in your near and distant past and you, to the best of your ability, tell me you can't provide an accurate recollection, does that taint you as being dishonest?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Again, I believe we are seriously off-topic. However, I'll respond.

Your "rhetorical phrase" may be just that, but "a legitimate point" it ain't. On the contrary, it is a statement made to appear damning in the light of people's tendancy to consider such matters as black or white. If I ask you one-thousand questions of great or little consequence relating to various events in your near and distant past and you, to the best of your ability, tell me you can't provide an accurate recollection, does that taint you as being dishonest?
I would certainly risk being labeled forgetful, as Pepto labeled the Clintons. Only I would know if I really was answering to the best of my recollection. However, most of us, particularly if our memories are jogged by questioning, can remember events of moderate importance in the not-too-distant past. So if I told you I couldn't remember certain such events, regardless of my answers to your other questions, you might naturally suspect that I was not being fully honest. Something similar happened to both the Clintons, and their reputation for honesty suffered as a result. Only the Clintons know for sure whether their respective memory lapses were genuine, but there seems to be an objectively reasonable basis for suspecting that some of them weren't.

However, Pepto didn't even go so far as to say all of the above. He simply made a fairly intelligible ironic allusion to the Clintons' claimed forgetfulness.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Tony



I think you are right, comming from san francisco, you should have a lot of experience encountering self-righteous ********.

Uuuh, is that the envy of someone from the US's biggest flyover state? I heard that Austin is quite cool, though, despite being in Texas. Maybe you want to move there to get less bitter about us "Sodomites by the Bay"?

[zakur]

The mainstream press, after an astonishing two years of cowardice, is belatedly drawing attention to the unconscionable level of administrative deception. They seem surprised to find that when it comes to Iraq, the Bush administration isn't prone to the occasional lie of expediency but, in fact, almost never told the truth.

What follows are just the most outrageous and significant of the dozens of outright lies uttered by Bush and his top officials over the past year in what amounts to a systematic campaign to scare the bejeezus out of everybody:Ten Appalling Lies We Were Told About Iraq (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16274)[

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by zakur
Ten Appalling Lies We Were Told About Iraq (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16274)[

Who is AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/about_us.html)

Just for some insight on who this source is.

I am taking their material with some salt

[subgenius]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe


Who is AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/about_us.html)

Just for some insight on who this source is.

I am taking their material with some salt
Anything reported in the article inaccurate?

[Crossbow]

Hello everyone!

Some of you may recall this thread when it was first started about a year and three months ago.

Anyway, considering some of Bush's recent comments (to paraphrase) I have personally concluded that Bush is not a liar, he is just plain stupid.

National Security will be decided in the Oval Office (so I guess that means the only one who really matters in issues of war and peace is the President).

Meetings have neve worked to solve military problems (so I guess he never heard of all the meetings guys like Rooselvelt had during WW II with Britian and the USSR).

I [Bush] miscalculated matters during post-war Iraq (Bush said this weeks ago so I fail to understand all the damage control the White House is currently doing regarding the Bremer comments).

Thanks for letting me vent!

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Leroy
:D I love the quotes of politicians. These are some of the funniest.

Quotes From President Bush:


"They said, 'You know, this issue doesn't seem to resignate [sic] with the people.' And I said, you know something? Whether it resignates [sic] or not doesn't matter to me, because I stand for doing what's the right thing, and what the right thing is hearing the voices of people who work. --Portland, Ore., Oct. 31, 2000

Bush Quotes (http://www.lifeisajoke.com/politics23_html.htm)

It struck me when I got to this one (and I remember cringing when I heard him saying "resignate") that it is precisely because he is semi-literate that he was elected and will probably get him elected again. Let's face it (and I don't mean to sound condescending, but if you've ever sat through jury duty you know what I mean) most average folks just don't put a lot of stock in book learnin' and such. In fact, they're downright suspicious of anyone who can actually use the word resonate. This is what resonates with most folks - "He's a God fearin' man of faith who stands up for what am right. Goddanged atheist commynists."

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Anyway, considering some of Bush's recent comments (to paraphrase) I have personally concluded that Bush is not a liar, he is just plain stupid.
Actually, I think, Dubya is not as dumb as he appears (OK, it wouldn't be difficult).
I think he just pretends to be stupid in order to get away with telling the most outrageous porkies; when he's caught out, he just pretends he didn't understand what he was saying.

I try not to post on the politics forums, because...

...now watch everyone tear the foreigner to shreds...

[Ladewig]

The candidates have almost the same pedigree, yet when radio commentators decry elitist intellectuals, no one ever seems to think of Bush.

[fishbob]

when radio commentators decry elitist intellectuals, no one ever seems to think of Bush. There is a reason for that. See "resignate" above.

[crimresearch]

So is the point here that the *better* a politician is at concealing their lying and incompetence, the more the populace should like it?


Hmmm...

[circuit slave]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
could you please post another topic about how you think Bush is stupid ?

they're so interesting to read.

here.....post one that says this :

Is Bush Stupid, Ignorant, Racist, Unhygenic, Greedy, and a Liar ?





yeah, what he said.

[fishbob]

So is the point here that the *better* a politician is at concealing their lying and incompetence, the more the populace should like it? Change 'should' to 'does' and you are dead-on accurate.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Hello everyone!

Some of you may recall this thread when it was first started about a year and three months ago.

Anyway, considering some of Bush's recent comments (to paraphrase) I have personally concluded that Bush is not a liar, he is just plain stupid.

National Security will be decided in the Oval Office (so I guess that means the only one who really matters in issues of war and peace is the President).

Meetings have neve worked to solve military problems (so I guess he never heard of all the meetings guys like Rooselvelt had during WW II with Britian and the USSR).

I [Bush] miscalculated matters during post-war Iraq (Bush said this weeks ago so I fail to understand all the damage control the White House is currently doing regarding the Bremer comments).

Thanks for letting me vent!

Vent away, but I wish you had included the context that those statements were made in. Could the first Bush remark you cite be in response to Kerry's statement that there would be a "global test" before the US would take any preemptive military action during Kerry's administration?

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Vent away, but I wish you had included the context that those statements were made in. Could the first Bush remark you cite be in response to Kerry's statement that there would be a "global test" before the US would take any preemptive military action during Kerry's administration?

OK then, try this context on for size (please note, who said this quote and that the source is the White House web site).

From a presentation made the other day to the National Association of Home Builders in regards to the first presidential debate where Bush rather unmodestly claimed to be the only person who knows what is best for America.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/10/20041002-7.html

…
THE PRESIDENT: That's what he said. (Laughter.) Think about this, Senator Kerry's approach to foreign policy would give foreign governments veto power over our national security decisions. I have a different view. (Applause.) When our country is in danger, the President's job is not to take an international poll. The President's job is to defend America. (Applause.) I'll continue to work every day with our friends and allies for the sake of freedom and peace. But our national security decisions will be made in the Oval Office, not in foreign capitals. (Applause.) We have hard work ahead to do our duty. But by being steadfast and resolved, we will prevail. (Applause.)
…

How is that?

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Kodiak
...Kerry's statement that there would be a "global test" before the US would take any preemptive military action during Kerry's administration...Of course that wasn't what Mr. Kerry said nor implied. Not even close.

But I understand the rationale (look, a French word!) behind so strongly promoting the "global test" Big Lie: the party of "morality," who wouldn't know a high moral if it sat on their collective laps and whistled the Oscar Meyer Weiner Song, wants nothing but power, power, and more power. No matter what it takes.

Repugnant.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Crossbow
OK then, try this context on for size (please note, who said this quote and that the source is the White House web site).

From a presentation made the other day to the National Association of Home Builders in regards to the first presidential debate where Bush rather unmodestly claimed to be the only person who knows what is best for America.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/10/20041002-7.html

…
THE PRESIDENT: That's what he said. (Laughter.) Think about this, Senator Kerry's approach to foreign policy would give foreign governments veto power over our national security decisions. I have a different view. (Applause.) When our country is in danger, the President's job is not to take an international poll. The President's job is to defend America. (Applause.) I'll continue to work every day with our friends and allies for the sake of freedom and peace. But our national security decisions will be made in the Oval Office, not in foreign capitals. (Applause.) We have hard work ahead to do our duty. But by being steadfast and resolved, we will prevail. (Applause.)
…

How is that?


That's what I thought. Thank you.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Of course that wasn't what Mr. Kerry said nor implied. Not even close.

But I understand the rationale (look, a French word!) behind so strongly promoting the "global test" Big Lie: the party of "morality," who wouldn't know a high moral if it sat on their collective laps and whistled the Oscar Meyer Weiner Song, wants nothing but power, power, and more power. No matter what it takes.

Repugnant.

Neither "said nor implied"? "Not even close"? Really?

The only thing repugnant is your ignorance...



From an MSNBC transcript of the debate:

LEHRER: "New question. Two minutes, Senator Kerry.

What is your position on the whole concept of preemptive war?"

KERRY: "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

No president, though all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you‘re doing what you‘re doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons.

Here we have our own secretary of state who has had to apologize to the world for the presentation he made to the United Nations.

I mean, we can remember when President Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis sent his secretary of state to Paris to meet with DeGaulle. And in the middle of the discussion, to tell them about the missiles in Cuba, he said, “Here, let me show you the photos.� And DeGaulle waved them off and said, “No, no, no, no. The word of the president of the United States is good enough for me.�

How many leaders in the world today would respond to us, as a result of what we‘ve done, in that way? So what is at test here is the credibility of the United States of America and how we lead the world. And Iran and Iraq are now more dangerous—Iran and North Korea are now more dangerous.

Now, whether preemption is ultimately what has to happen, I don‘t know yet. But I‘ll tell you this: As president, I‘ll never take my eye off that ball. I‘ve been fighting for proliferation the entire time—anti-proliferation the entire time I‘ve been in the Congress. And we‘ve watched this president actually turn away from some of the treaties that were on the table.

You don‘t help yourself with other nations when you turn away from the global warming treaty, for instance, or when you refuse to deal at length with the United Nations.

You have to earn that respect. And I think we have a lot of earning back to do."

[Regnad Kcin]

Why, thanks for posting the senator's entire response. Saved me the trouble.

Quite obviously, what he meant couldn't be more clear: We preempt when necessary. We demonstrate why, if necessary. Simple.

However, as I said, the Party of Morality would rather dissemble, would rather twist the meaning of Mr. Kerry's words so as to portay a patriot as some sort of weakling or appeaser.

And I'm more repugnant? Ho-ho!

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Quite obviously, what he meant couldn't be more clear: We preempt when necessary. We demonstrate why, if necessary. Simple.

Not so obviously, evidently, since you haven't got it quite right.

"Preempt when necessary" - you got this part correct.

"demonstrate why, if necessary" - "If necessary"?? Here is where you're wrong. Kerry is alot more definite than you would like everyone to believe.

Again, from the transcript of Kerry's own words:

"...Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test..."

"You have to earn that respect. And I think we have a lot of earning back to do."

[Regnad Kcin]

You (along with various mouthpieces of the GOP) apparently want to pretend there is some insidious meaning in Senator Kerry's choice of words. You lift them, bold them, and attempt to color them with some meaning apart from what was intended.

Words which are spoken extemporaneously cannot be parsed with the precision normally given to written text. So we look at the greater message -- the main point of the answer. There is where the response reveals itself to be nothing so much as a reiteration of the common-sense belief that allies matter.

This is all just a replay of the attempt to claim Mr. Kerry's "more sensitive war" comments were something they were not. The Republicans in question, along with their usual shills, keep demonstrating there is no murky depth to which they will not sink. They, and you, know what the senator meant. But in an effort to remain in power, anything goes, up to and including trying to tell people they heard something they didn't, never mind their candidate is a man whose choice of words and the meaning behind them has for years been nearly beyond analysis.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
You (along with various mouthpieces of the GOP) apparently want to pretend there is some insidious meaning in Senator Kerry's choice of words. You lift them, bold them, and attempt to color them with some meaning apart from what was intended.

Words which are spoken extemporaneously cannot be parsed with the precision normally given to written text. So we look at the greater message -- the main point of the answer. There is where the response reveals itself to be nothing so much as a reiteration of the common-sense belief that allies matter.

This is all just a replay of the attempt to claim Mr. Kerry's "more sensitive war" comments were something they were not. The Republicans in question, along with their usual shills, keep demonstrating there is no murky depth to which they will not sink. They, and you, know what the senator meant. But in an effort to remain in power, anything goes, up to and including trying to tell people they heard something they didn't, never mind their candidate is a man whose choice of words and the meaning behind them has for years been nearly beyond analysis.

:rolleyes:

:nope:

How dare I reprint the man's own words! And bold them, no less! :eek:

I have no idea what Kerry "intended". I can only go by what he actually said.

"Heard something they didn't"?!?! The transcript lays out Kerry's words to the letter!


Subgenius should be proud that you're taking up his slack... :nope:

[AtheistArchon]

How dare I reprint the man's own words! And bold them, no less!

I have no idea what Kerry "intended". I can only go by what he actually said.

- Again, I feel I must point out that most of the hardcore Bush supporters I've debated with have to flee, loudly and conspicuously, from this very argument whenever any number of Bushisms are brought up. How can everyone understand how important context and verbal inaccuracies are when Bush is speaking, and then suddenly forget it when Kerry is?

- In any case, it's business as usual from the GOP camp to pick up this kind of thing and brandish it widely; we saw it with "flip-flop" and it's now a trademark, now we're seeing it with "global test". The attack quite obviously doesn't reflect Kerry's true position, but that doesn't appear to matter to those making the attack. Perhaps we'll see it demolished in the debate tonight... again.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by AtheistArchon
- Again, I feel I must point out that most of the hardcore Bush supporters I've debated with have to flee, loudly and conspicuously, from this very argument whenever any number of Bushisms are brought up. How can everyone understand how important context and verbal inaccuracies are when Bush is speaking, and then suddenly forget it when Kerry is?

- In any case, it's business as usual from the GOP camp to pick up this kind of thing and brandish it widely; we saw it with "flip-flop" and it's now a trademark, now we're seeing it with "global test". The attack quite obviously doesn't reflect Kerry's true position, but that doesn't appear to matter to those making the attack. Perhaps we'll see it demolished in the debate tonight... again.

Sorry, but you will not see me fleeing, as I am not a "hardcore Bush supporter". I have neither ignored nor forgotten Bush's words, and I am often irritated and/or displeased with what and how Bush says what he says. As I've made known more than once, Bush is not my ideal candidate, but do consider him better than the alternative.

If what Kerry said about having to pass a global test and having to earn the respect of the world and the UN at the first debate is not what he meant to say, or came out incorrectly or inaccurately, why does he not respond to the GOP when they call him to task for what he said. Why doesn't he clarify his position?

Tonight's town hall debate should be interesting. I for one am interested in what both candidates have to say. Kerry might take a hit if any attention is paid to his Senate record, and Bush definitely needs to be less defensive, repetitive and halting.

It's just unfortunate that Nader and Badnarik are not allowed to take part...