Breaking News: Rumsfeld Stepping Down

[Katana]

CNN just announced that Rumsfeld is stepping down. More to come, no doubt.

[jay gw]

Rumsfeld doesn't want to become a target of investigations now that the Democrats have the ability to make things very very difficult for him.

[Vorticity]

CNN just announced that Rumsfeld is stepping down.
Doubtless to "spend more time with his family."

[FreeChile]

Someone in the office just told me. So I don't have a link yet.

[JLam]

No linky yet, it's just come across as an alert on the wires.

:D

[Upchurch]

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20061108/D8L91I601.html

[Katana]

I wonder whose decision it was (his or GWB's).

[Cello Man]

I love the smell of positive political change in the morning. Smells like...victory.

Well, I know this doesn't solve everything, but dammit it's a step in the right direction.

[JLam]

OK, someone please merge the threads that Katana and I started and gave the exact same titles to.

[Vorticity]

Katana wins.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68171

[Katana]

Katana wins.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68171

:thanks

[Hamradioguy]

What took so long? (Better late than never I guess.....)

[FreeChile]

What took so long? (Better late than never I guess.....)
The mid-term elections.

[shemp]

Maybe if he'd done this a few months ago, the GOP might not have gotten their butts kicked yesterday.

[Luke T.]

Rumsfeld doesn't want to become a target of investigations now that the Democrats have the ability to make things very very difficult for him.

Resigning does not exempt him from being a target.

Maybe if he'd done this a few months ago, the GOP might not have gotten their butts kicked yesterday.
He couldn't resign before the elections because hearings for his replacement would have served as a platform to bloviate about the war in Iraq for the Dems.

I have been expecting this for some time.

[pipelineaudio]

car salseman rumsfeld, truly a pig among men

[Tricky]

Oh, this is just too much good news (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/08/rumsfeld.ap/index.html)for one day.

[Lisa Simpson]

I'm sorry this thread looks kind of wacky, but there were three different threads all about Rumsfeld resigning.

[Darth Rotor]

The mid-term elections.
Color me stunned. I didn't think he'd quit. Tactical withdrawal?

DR

[headscratcher4]

Hopefully, he can be transferred to G-tmo and waterboarded before too long...I kid 'cause I love.

[FreeChile]

I'm sorry this thread looks kind of wacky, but there were three different threads all about Rumsfeld resigning.
This is the winner. I as second, like the Republicans.

[Luke T.]

Color me stunned. I didn't think he'd quit. Tactical withdrawal?

DR

The fact that Bush has a ready replacement, and is going to put him up for confirmation means that this has been the plan for some time. They were just waiting for the elections to pass for the reason I stated above.

[Cylinder]

Robert Gates official bio (http://www.tamu.edu/president/biography.html)

[Upchurch]

Heck of a job, Rummy

[Tricky]

Resigning does not exempt him from being a target.
Do you think it should? I'm betting people still say bad things about Benedict Arnold too.

He couldn't resign before the elections because hearings for his replacement would have served as a platform to bloviate about the war in Iraq for the Dems.

I have been expecting this for some time.
Yes he could have. Evidence that Bushco was cleaning up its act could have made all the difference in the elections.

[corplinx]

I'm sure the new Secretary will be able to make the Sunni and Shiite militant groups step down and stop killing each other. Things will change under a new secretary and get better instantly.

[Katana]

Robert Gates official bio (http://www.tamu.edu/president/biography.html)

He has to be good considering his alma mater:

A native of Kansas, Dr. Gates received his bachelor's degree from the College of William and Mary
Go Tribe!

[Upchurch]

Wow. This was fast:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gates

[Darth Rotor]

Robert Gates official bio (http://www.tamu.edu/president/biography.html)

A native of Kansas, Dr. Gates received his bachelor's degree from the College of William and Mary, his master's degree in history from Indiana University, and his doctorate in Russian and Soviet history from Georgetown University. Dr. Gates is 62, and he and his wife Becky have two adult children.
Should I say "Gig 'em, Aggies"? :confused:

DR

[headscratcher4]

I've said this in another thread, but I'll put it here. This is how the GOP will keep the Senate. Gates is "acting". Prediction: Bush formally appoints Lieberman...gets the GOP back to 50/50 or 51/49 because the GOP governor of Conn. will appoint a GOP Senator.

[Walk The Line]

He has to be good considering his alma mater:


Go Tribe!

Did you go to W&M?

[Katana]

I've said this in another thread, but I'll put it here. This is how the GOP will keep the Senate. Gates is "acting". Prediction: Bush formally appoints Lieberman...gets the GOP back to 50/50 or 51/49 because the GOP governor of Conn. will appoint a GOP Senator.

Would Lieberman have to accept? If not, would he?

Not knowing much about his background, is he even qualified for the job?

[Katana]

Did you go to W&M?

Yes.

[Darth Rotor]

Would Lieberman have to accept? If not, would he?

Not knowing much about his background, is he even qualified for the job?

No.

Joe Lieberman is not qualified for Sec Def, then again, neither was William Cohen. That doesn't mean he might not get a nod, however, he is needed in the Senate as a shill for Bush's foreign policies, albeit as an "independent."

Fig Leaf.

DR

[headscratcher4]

Would Lieberman have to accept? If not, would he?

Not knowing much about his background, is he even qualified for the job?

Possibly...appeal to a bi-partisan approach to foriegn affairs, a war supporter, a cap on a long public career...remember Bill Cohen in the Clinton Administration.

Was Rummsfeld qualified? Brownie? Bush? Sure, really, he's as qualified as any, more than most.

[Pardalis]

Finally!

[Walk The Line]

Yes.

That's where my significant other went to school. It's nice to see a Tribster on here :)

[Darth Rotor]

Was Rummsfeld qualified?
Yes, he was. Recall he'd had the post previously. Ford.

DR

[Katana]

That's where my significant other went to school. It's nice to see a Tribster on here :)

That's great! Your S.O. is obviously someone with impressive intelligence and excellent taste.

:D

[FreeChile]

Wow. This was fast:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gates
And also this on it now.

Because of recent vandalism or other disruption, editing of this article by unregistered or newly registered users is currently disabled. Such users may discuss changes, request unprotection, or create an account.

The same thing happened last night after someone added Pelosi to the House of Reps Wikipedia entry.

It looks like a dye-hard democrat has hacked the wiki.

[bozothedeathmachine]

Is Rummy going to blame starting the war on his alcoholism now?

Edit: Spelling

[headscratcher4]

Yes, he was. Recall he'd had the post previously. Ford.

DR

I was trying to be funny (lumping him in with Brownie...), yes Rummy was qualified (if, IMO, a huge failure. Cohen was qualified too...long years in the Senate qualify many for these kinds of jobs...think Laird...hell, even Tower was quaified (though "borkable").

[Walk The Line]

That's great! Your S.O. is obviously someone with impressive intelligence and excellent taste.

:D


Of course. I would expect nothing less from a W&M alum ;)

[Luke T.]

Do you think it should? I'm betting people still say bad things about Benedict Arnold too.

I was responding to the statement that Rumsfeld resigned to avoid being a target. By the fact that resigning does not exempt him, I was making the point that was not why he resigned.

Yes he could have. Evidence that Bushco was cleaning up its act could have made all the difference in the elections.

I doubt it. Do you really think that during the confirmation hearings that "Bushco is cleaning up its act" is going to be the sheet music? Watch and see. It's going to be, "What are you going to do to get us out of this mess?" and "How did we get in this mess?" and "Follow the money", and spinoff investigations ad nauseum.

What issues did the Republicans focus on this year? Iraq, terrorism, gay marriage and flag burning. Gee, no wonder they got their asses kicked. Gay marriage and flag burning are infinitely small in importance in the public consciousness. That leaves Iraq and terrorism. And it's a mess.

Instead of flag burning, they should have focused on prescription meds, social security, and other things that really freaking matter.

So it is all about Iraq this election.

Seeing Rumsfeld's demise was a no-brainer for me because of that. His demise was predestined months ago.

[Furious]

I wonder whose decision it was (his or GWB's).

It might have been a standing offer from Rumsfeld that Bush finally accepted:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/02/03/rumsfeld.resign/

[Tricky]

Is Rummy going to blame starting the war on his alcoholism now?
...and is he going to write a "tell-all" book?

[Cylinder]

Is Rummy going to blame starting the war on his alcoholism now?

Edit: Spelling

You should probably worry more about your grasp of the Constitution. The SECDEF does not start wars - Congress does. The GOP-controlled house and a Senate controlled by the Democrats started this war.

[Darth Rotor]

I was trying to be funny (lumping him in with Brownie...), yes Rummy was qualified (if, IMO, a huge failure. Cohen was qualified too...long years in the Senate qualify many for these kinds of jobs...think Laird...hell, even Tower was quaified (though "borkable").
I am sorry, but having been in the DoD while Cohen was Sec Def, he was pretty much useless.

William Perry? There was a solid Sec Def.

DR

[bigred]

I'm no Rumsfeld fan, but replacing him with an ex-CIA guy, esp after their "WMDs in Iraq are a slam-dunk" SNAFU? Yeah I know he wasn't CIA then, but I'm talking the perception....

This opinion brought to you by The I-hate-both-parties-independent-thinkers Association. US reg pat off.

[headscratcher4]

I'm no Rumsfeld fan, but replacing him with an ex-CIA guy, esp after their "WMDs in Iraq are a slam-dunk" SNAFU? Yeah I know he wasn't CIA then, but I'm talking the perception....

This opinion brought to you by The I-hate-both-parties-independent-thinkers Association. US reg pat off.

It's more than that... Gates is/was up to his Rumsfeld in Iran/Contra.

[headscratcher4]

Unfortunate double post...

[bigred]

I am sorry, but having been in the DoD while Cohen was Sec Def, he was pretty much useless.

William Perry? There was a solid Sec Def.

DR
Don't mean to sidetrack (in fact feel free to PM me so as not to do so) but curious to your reasons, as I've been "under" DoD for quite some time myself. Perry annoyed the flip out of me with his "C3 Architecture" stuff.

PS anyone know of a link showing who was DoD going back X years? Searching google and DefenseLink and the like hasn't turned up anything for me. Thx

[Luke T.]

Holy cow! A reporter just asked Bush about Social Security!

I'm on a roll today...
:D

[Cylinder]

PS anyone know of a link showing who was DoD going back X years? Searching google and DefenseLink and the like hasn't turned up anything for me. Thx

Here (http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1226.html). Turn down your speakers if you're at work.

1947 - 1949 James V. Forrestal New York Truman
1949 - 1950 Louis A. Johnson West Virginia Truman
1950 - 1951 George C. Marshall Pennsylvania Truman
1951 - 1953 Robert A. Lovett New York Truman
1953 - 1957 Charles E. Wilson Michigan Eisenhower
1957 - 1959 Neil H. McElroy Ohio Eisenhower
1959 - 1961 Thomas S. Gates Jr. Pennsylvania Eisenhower
1961 - 1963 Robert S. McNamara Michigan Kennedy
1963 - 1968 Robert S. McNamara Michigan L.B. Johnson
1968 - 1969 Clark M. Clifford Maryland L.B. Johnson
1969 - 1973 Melvin R. Laird Wisconsin Nixon
1973 Elliot L. Richardson Massachusetts Nixon
1973 - 1974 James R. Schlesinger Virginia Nixon
1974 - 1975 James R. Schlesinger Virginia Ford
1975 - 1977 Donald H. Rumsfeld Illinois Ford
1977 - 1981 Harold Brown California Carter
1981 - 1987 Caspar W. Weinberger California Reagan
1987 - 1989 Frank C. Carlucci Pennsylvania Reagan
1989 - 1993 Richard B. Cheney Wyoming G.H.W. Bush
1993 - 1994 Les Aspin Wisconsin Clinton
1994 - 1997 William J. Perry California Clinton
1997 - 2001 William Cohen Maine Clinton
2001 - Donald H. Rumsfeld Illinois G.W. Bush

[Tricky]

I was responding to the statement that Rumsfeld resigned to avoid being a target. By the fact that resigning does not exempt him, I was making the point that was not why he resigned. Ah. I didn't get that. Sorry then.

I doubt it. Do you really think that during the confirmation hearings that "Bushco is cleaning up its act" is going to be the sheet music? Watch and see. It's going to be, "What are you going to do to get us out of this mess?" and "How did we get in this mess?" and "Follow the money", and spinoff investigations ad nauseum.
Nevertheless, it would have made Bushco look like they were at least trying to do something better than what was going on. Ideally (for the Republicans), Rumsfeld should have announced this on Monday. Frankly, I think Bushco was still in denial about the direction the election was headed. Then again, this may be why "stay the course" left the lexicon recently.

What issues did the Republicans focus on this year? Iraq, terrorism, gay marriage and flag burning. Gee, no wonder they got their asses kicked. Gay marriage and flag burning are infinitely small in importance in the public consciousness. That leaves Iraq and terrorism. And it's a mess.
I really didn't hear much about gay marriage and flag-burning in the last run-up to the election. Mostly it was just the usual character assassination. Plus Iraq.

Instead of flag burning, they should have focused on prescription meds, social security, and other things that really freaking matter. I'm surprised the GOPs didn't tout the (reasonably) good economy more than they did. Maybe because so many people aren't really feeling that much better about the economy. I think they would have been burned by health care too. That "solution" hasn't really been much of of a crowd-pleaser either.

So it is all about Iraq this election.

Seeing Rumsfeld's demise was a no-brainer for me because of that. His demise was predestined months ago.
Still makes no sense to me. But then, little that this administration has done makes sense, so maybe this is just another verse in the whole cluster-**** sheet music.

[Darth Rotor]

Don't mean to sidetrack (in fact feel free to PM me so as not to do so) but curious to your reasons, as I've been "under" DoD for quite some time myself. Perry annoyed the flip out of me with his "C3 Architecture" stuff.

PS anyone know of a link showing who was DoD going back X years? Searching google and DefenseLink and the like hasn't turned up anything for me. Thx
Perry succeeded Les Aspin, who got fired for listening to the Joint Chiefs on the base force, after he directed a rational review to assess requirements. So, what did Dr Perry do?

He took a losing hand (note, he resigned after three years) and successfully presided over a contentious relationship established between the Pentagon and the White House the day of innauguration. He kept the split over budget, force structure, and the clumsily lost homosexual initiative from deepening the rift begun by Panetta, Clinton, and a whole host of amateurs who showed up in the Executive Branch. Cohen, on the other hand, completed the sell out of the Military Health Care system, and as for acquisition reform . . . don't get me started.

I was generally impressed with Perry's rational approach, his intelligence, and his ability to articulate policy and direction when no one had any funds to do much of anything. My biggest disappointment from him was his inability to keep the raids on OPTAR/OM&N accounts, during Clinton's continued nickel and dime deployments, from doing the damage they did to logistic sustainability of the force. He tried, but he also knew what happened to Aspin when he pointed out "you can't get a free lunch."

He made the best out of a very bad situation, and did it with class.

DR

[Luke T.]

I'm surprised the GOPs didn't tout the (reasonably) good economy more than they did. Maybe because so many people aren't really feeling that much better about the economy. I think they would have been burned by health care too. That "solution" hasn't really been much of of a crowd-pleaser either.


Still makes no sense to me. But then, little that this administration has done makes sense, so maybe this is just another verse in the whole cluster-**** sheet music.

Combining your two statements together.

I think the Administration believed that they had the public behind them all the way in Iraq. Even with Bush's approval rating in the gutter. Some sort of weird delusion going on there.

I think the Administration got so used to associating Iraq with the War on Terror, that they began to believe their own crap. They were told the American people believe the Republicans can do a better job of protecting them from terrorists, and so in their minds, it meant Americans were behind them on the war in Iraq. They couldn't get it through their minds that the war in Iraq is no longer closely associated with the War on Terror in the public mind any more. If anything, the war in Iraq is breeding terrorists in the American mind.

So under this Iraq/War on Terror connection delusion still in full swing in the White House, they felt that having everyone focused on Iraq was not a bad thing for them.

By the time they realized their error, the election was looming large and it was too late to boot Rumsfeld because the confirmation hearings for his replacement would become a platform to bash Bush and, by extension, the Republican Party.

[Crossbow]

Anyone else remember how just last week Bush said something like "Rumsfeld is going to stay on as SECDEF until the end of my term"?

Otherwise, Bush has finally made a personnel decision that I can agree with.

[headscratcher4]

Combining your two statements together.

I think the Administration believed that they had the public behind them all the way in Iraq. Even with Bush's approval rating in the gutter. Some sort of weird delusion going on there.

I think the Administration got so used to associating Iraq with the War on Terror, that they began to believe their own crap. They were told the American people believe the Republicans can do a better job of protecting them from terrorists, and so in their minds, it meant Americans were behind them on the war in Iraq. They couldn't get it through their minds that the war in Iraq is no longer closely associated with the War on Terror in the public mind any more. If anything, the war in Iraq is breeding terrorists in the American mind.

So under this Iraq/War on Terror connection delusion still in full swing in the White House, they felt that having everyone focused on Iraq was not a bad thing for them.

By the time they realized their error, the election was looming large and it was too late to boot Rumsfeld because the confirmation hearings for his replacement would become a platform to bash Bush and, by extension, the Republican Party.

Another analysis that I found useful was the analysis that said that the election was nationalized. But, interestingly enough, it was Bush as much as the Dems. that Nationalized the election. Had they kept it local...had Bush not focused himself on Iraq, there might have been a window through which voters may have seen the economy in a better light. But both Bush and the D's kept bringining it back to Iraq...and Iraq just isn't working for Bush.

[Luke T.]

Anyone else remember how just last week Bush said something like "Rumsfeld is going to stay on as SECDEF until the end of my term"?

Otherwise, Bush has finally made a personnel decision that I can agree with.

He just said during his press conference that he met with Gates this past Sunday. :)

[Luke T.]

Another analysis that I found useful was the analysis that said that the election was nationalized. But, interestingly enough, it was Bush as much as the Dems. that Nationalized the election. Had they kept it local...had Bush not focused himself on Iraq, there might have been a window through which voters may have seen the economy in a better light. But both Bush and the D's kept bringining it back to Iraq...and Iraq just isn't working for Bush.

Yeah. It's going to be ugly for Bush for the next six months while some mud is raked. Better after the election, than before, and while there is a lot of time before the next elections to take some punches and move on.

[Tony]

This is a good day for America.

[Pardalis]

This is a good day for America.

Well at least, that's a good step in the right direction.

See, we can agree on something. ;)

[Solitaire]

I'm surprised. Cheney said that if Rumsfeld goes he goes and we'd be left without the brains in the White House. Clearly Rove managed to do the impossible and find someone Cheney could work with.

Stay The Course will stay in operation, but it will no longer be in the limelight. Instead a new policy will take center stage called Change The Tone. It will work hard on changing the mood of the public, focus of the press, and the attitude of the new congress for the next two years. Then general Pass The Buck will take charge.

[Charlie Monoxide]

I love the smell of positive political change in the morning. Smells like...victory.

Well, I know this doesn't solve everything, but dammit it's a step in the right direction.The weather here in Orlando, Florida was rainy and windy last night. Heck, there were even tornadao warnings! How did the GOP order up weather like that? (as if Florida needed it to sway voter turnout for GOP)

Today, the weather is absolutely beautiful. It's mid 70's with low humidy and few clouds in the sky.

Charlie (yes, it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood) Monoxide

[Darth Rotor]

The weather here in Orlando, Florida was rainy and windy last night.

Those were special effects provided by your lord and masters, oh hapless Peon of the Disney Empire.

DR

[Solus]

I'd glad that idiot is finally leaving. Now I just wish Bush would just step down from the presidency.

[opqdan]

Hey, this is pretty cool! Not necessarily because Rundfeld is stepping down (although that is very good), but because Robert Gates is a cool guy.

I once met him and even shook his hand and talked with him, although for the life of me I cannot remember why. It was maybe 5 years ago, and it may have had something to do with the Boy Scouts (he is an Eagle Scout). That means I am only 2 degrees of separation from the president now, right?

[Tricky]

I'd glad that idiot is finally leaving. Now I just wish Bush would just step down from the presidency.And make Cheney president? Why do you hate America?

[zakur]

Bush switches strategy from "Stay-the-Course" to "Cut-and-Rumsfeld."

[Solus]

And make Cheney president? Why do you hate America?

Good point, well then both the President and Vice president admit they vastly screwed up then step down, how is that?

Well actually if they showed some humility, then I wouldn't care if they held their postitions a few more years. Bush should apologize for his speeches, for his "mandates",and for his supposed mission from god. Then and only then maybe I'd stop caring.

Fox news is a riot to watch BTW.

[Darth Rotor]

And make Cheney president? Why do you hate America?

Best assassination insurance policy GWB ever bought: Cheney on the ticket.

DR

[Meadmaker]

"Mr. President, we are approaching 3,000 dead Americans in Iraq."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, the people of Baghdad still don't have regular electric service."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, there are at least 100,000 dead in Iraq. Some people say it is as high as 600,000."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, we are being criticized all over the world for our treatment of detainees."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, we lost the Senate."

"We need a fresh perspective."

[Upchurch]

"Mr. President, we lost the Senate."

"We need a fresh perspective."
Boy, that's cynical. ....and accurate.

[Katana]

"Mr. President, we are approaching 3,000 dead Americans in Iraq."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, the people of Baghdad still don't have regular electric service."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, there are at least 100,000 dead in Iraq. Some people say it is as high as 600,000."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, we are being criticized all over the world for our treatment of detainees."

"Stay the course."

"Mr. President, we lost the Senate."

"We need a fresh perspective."

That got you nominated.

[Beerina]

I'd glad that idiot is finally leaving. Now I just wish Bush would just step down from the presidency.And make Cheney president? Why do you hate America?

At this point, I'm reminded of the old Star Trek episode where Spock and Scotty and a few others (not Kirk) are trapped on a planet in a broken shuttle. About to be destroyed by giants, they just get off the ground and to the edge of space, but not quite in orbit. But the Enterprise is gone. So it's either do a soft landing, and be killed by giants, or stay up as long as possible hoping for rescue, and burn up in the atmosphere.

Spock burns the last of the fuel to generate a giant flare. They no longer have the fuel to land safely, and will start to burn up in minutes rather than hours.

Do you go for Cheney in a double-whammy? Or do you go with Bush? As Spock then said, "When the logical options won't work, the only logical thing to do is be illogical."

[Checkmite]

This is a good day for America.

It's a changing day for America. Whether that change will indeed be good, only time will tell. I sure hope it will be.

[EBU]

You should probably worry more about your grasp of the Constitution. The SECDEF does not start wars - Congress does. The GOP-controlled house and a Senate controlled by the Democrats started this war.

The joint resolution of October 2002 authorized President Bush to use military force in order to ensure that Iraq disarmed any weapons of mass destruction.

Does that mean that Congress started the war?

[Zep]

I (accidentally) started another frickin' thread on this, so let me just add my comment: It's some sense at last. Rummy was clearly perceived here as a nasty-assed little wart, with way too much negative influence on a wishy-washy president. The dirty hand in the sock-puppet.

With him gone, hopefully there's an opportunity for Bushco to get their act back on course and try to retrieve something out of the Iraq situation, among other things. Maybe it will require some pride to be swallowed...

That, or Bush is still expecting daddy to come in and fix it all for him...again.

[Darth Rotor]

Does that mean that Congress started the war?

It means they approved it. The old style, the President asks Congress to declare war on XXXX (See Wilson and FDR, for example, or McKinley) and Congress does so.

Congress could have NOT approved it. Congress could have advised the President "no money for you!" Congress are the "money Nazis." Congress played along.

Gulf of Tonkin for fifty, Alex. :p

DR

[GrnMtSkeptic]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228173,00.html
...in this little-understood, unfamiliar war, the first war of the 21st century -- it is not well-known, it was not well-understood; it is complex for people to comprehend.

I for one will not miss that condescending S.O.B.

[Crossbow]

He just said during his press conference that he met with Gates this past Sunday. :)

That should tell you something very important.

Bush lied when he said that; Bush had already decided to replace Rumsfeld well before he made that statement.

[Darth Rotor]

That should tell you something very important.

Bush lied when he said that; Bush had already decided to replace Rumsfeld well before he made that statement.
OK, work with me here. How is this important?

DR

[Meadmaker]

Boy, that's cynical. ....and accurate.

I don't always enjoy being cynical, but sometimes, you have to go with your strengths.

Thank you, Katana.

[Crossbow]

OK, work with me here. How is this important?

DR

Er, perhaps it would help if you saw for yourself what Bush had to say about the matter when asked about it:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/11/20061108-2.html

...
Q Thank you, Mr. President. Last week you told us that Secretary Rumsfeld will be staying on. Why is the timing right now for this, and how much does it have to do with the election results?

THE PRESIDENT: Right. No, you and Hunt and Keil came in the Oval Office, and Hunt asked me the question one week before the campaign, and basically it was, are you going to do something about Rumsfeld and the Vice President? And my answer was, they're going to stay on. And the reason why is I didn't want to inject a major decision about this war in the final days of a campaign. And so the only way to answer that question and to get you on to another question was to give you that answer.

The truth of the matter is, as well -- I mean, that's one reason I gave the answer, but the other reason why is I hadn't had a chance to visit with Bob Gates yet, and I hadn't had my final conversation with Don Rumsfeld yet at that point.

I had been talking with Don Rumsfeld over a period of time about fresh perspective. He likes to call it fresh eyes. He, himself, understands that Iraq is not working well enough, fast enough. And he and I are constantly assessing. And I'm assessing, as well, all the time, by myself, about, do we have the right people in the right place, or do we -- got the right strategy? As you know, we're constantly changing tactics. And that requires constant assessment.

And so he and I both agreed in our meeting yesterday that it was appropriate that I accept his resignation. And so the decision was made -- actually, I thought we were going to do fine yesterday. Shows what I know. But I thought we were going to be fine in the election. My point to you is, is that, win or lose, Bob Gates was going to become the nominee.


I see at three serious problems with the above:

1) It shows how quickly and easily Bush can lie, and it goes to show how Bush has no problem in the rationalization of his lies.
Which is rather reminiscent of the various pre-war Iraq WMD claims and Iraq/911 claims.

2) It shows that Bush has actually been disappointed for some time with Rumsfeld yet Bush stuck with Rumsfeld yet said he was dropping the term "Stay the course" yet he does not want to change to course yet ...
Well, I think you get the point by now; if Bush cannot even sort out simple personnel issues, it is no wonder why decided to start a war that we will loose and that should have never even started to begin with.

3) It shows how delusional Bush was about the election because every decent analysis I saw (and I am sure that Bush has access to much better than I) said that the Democrats would take the House and may well take the Senate.
Yet Bush would rather believe what he wants to believe as opposed to dealing with actual facts which is rather reminiscent of the incredibly optimistic pre-war Iraq analysis he approved.

[Darth Rotor]

Er, perhaps it would help if you saw for yourself what Bush had to say about the matter when asked about it:

Picking the flyshit out of the pepper for fifty, Alex. :)

Journalists want the Pres to give away his plans by asking "what are you going to do" all the time. Presidents often, for reasons of a political nature, do not wish to give away a plan, so they are evasive in their answers. This is not confined to GWB. Why? If your (political) enemy knows your plan, he can start to defeat your plan, and thus you. (Sun Tzu) So, "are you going to fire Rummy" becomes a question that Pres knows is politically loaded, so he evades.

His theme for six years has been one of loyalty and solidarity. He is NOT required to tip his hand to appease a reporter. Until he makes the final decision, it is not smart for him to discuss the matter, nor is it courteous to his staff to discuss their employment with reporters before he has discussed it with them.

You take this innocuous bit of press handling, and consider it an important "Bush Lies" data point?

If you are going to do that, you must needs leap to the top of the Capitol Building and yell "All politicians lie!" For they do, and they are frequently evasive with the media.

So what?

This is not important. This is Press Handling 101, and the media c**ts in the room know that, good and goddamned well.

DR

[SteveGrenard]

It might have been a standing offer from Rumsfeld that Bush finally accepted:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/02/03/rumsfeld.resign/

=exit strategy

[Crossbow]

Picking the flyshit out of the pepper for fifty, Alex. :)

Journalists want the Pres to give away his plans by asking "what are you going to do" all the time. Presidents often, for reasons of a political nature, do not wish to give away a plan, so they are evasive in their answers. This is not confined to GWB. Why? If your (political) enemy knows your plan, he can start to defeat your plan, and thus you. (Sun Tzu) So, "are you going to fire Rummy" becomes a question that Pres knows is politically loaded, so he evades.

His theme for six years has been one of loyalty and solidarity. He is NOT required to tip his hand to appease a reporter. Until he makes the final decision, it is not smart for him to discuss the matter, nor is it courteous to his staff to discuss their employment with reporters before he has discussed it with them.

You take this innocuous bit of press handling, and consider it an important "Bush Lies" data point?

If you are going to do that, you must needs leap to the top of the Capitol Building and yell "All politicians lie!" For they do, and they are frequently evasive with the media.

So what?

This is not important. This is Press Handling 101, and the media c**ts in the room know that, good and goddamned well.

DR

Sooooo,

Bush used Sun Tzu logic in order to adroitly handle a reporters question and to avoid tipping his hand.

Well, that is a really sweet thought all right and I never thought that I would ever see someone giving him so much credit while maintaining a straight face.

I for one, seriously doubt that Bush has ever really read The Art of War let alone apply any of the advice given therein. However, I think that it is quite fair to say that you think far more highly of Bush than does most of the electorate.

[Tony]

Sooooo,

Bush used Sun Tzu logic in order to adroitly handle a reporters question and to avoid tipping his hand.

Well, that is a really sweet thought all right and I never thought that I would ever see someone giving him so much credit while maintaining a straight face.

I for one, seriously doubt that Bush has ever really read The Art of War let alone apply any of the advice given therein. However, I think that it is quite fair to say that you think far more highly of Bush than does most of the electorate.

In fact, didn't Bush go on record saying he thought Sun Tzu was a breed of rare dogs?

[E.J.Armstrong]

Rumsfield should be tried for war crimes and torture rather than being allowed to resign after all his warmongering and lies.

[Darth Rotor]

However, I think that it is quite fair to say that you think far more highly of Bush than does most of the electorate.
You would be a fool to say that. I am not impressed with his policies, his wit, nor his vision, not to mention the carelessness of his fiscal policies. I am further unimpressed with fools who make mountains out of molehills, as you did.

Let's recap, shall we?

Press Handling 101.

FWIW, I did not suggest Bush read the Art of War. I suspect he never did, though he may have. Sun Tzu was all the rave in US corporate boardrooms in the late 1980's and early 1990's. He was involved in running (sort of) a baseball team, so he may have read the James Clavell version that was so popular in those days.

The behavior I was discussing is based on the adversarial nature (sort of like war, ya see) of our political system. It lends itself to dealing with plans, and why you don't tell your (political) enemies -- who read the papers -- your plans.

Put another way, standard political evasion, version Bush 1.0. As noted, he's not the only politician, nor president, who plays the game this way. But for reasons of h is own, our very own Chicken Little Crossbow assigns undue importance to run of the mill Press Handling evolution.

You've got an apparent emotional need to make a big deal out of something mundane that Bush does. I don't. That does not make me his fan.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

In fact, didn't Bush go on record saying he thought Sun Tzu was a breed of rare dogs?
That's worth a beer. :) Tecate, or Sam Adams?

DR

[drkitten]

You would be a fool to say that. I am not impressed with his policies, his wit, nor his vision, not to mention the carelessness of his fiscal policies.

Then why are you one of the biggest apologists-for-Bush on the forum?

[Darth Rotor]

Rumsfield should be tried for war crimes and torture rather than being allowed to resign after all his warmongering and lies.
By whom?

What have you done to make sure this happens in a lawful manner?

Which secret CIA prison to do you propose sending him to, and how will you get him there?

As you know, it is not lawful to torture US citizens in US prisons. Were you blissfully unaware of that minor detail?

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Then why are you one of the biggest apologists-for-Bush on the forum?
You must have me confused with someone else.

How in the hell am I a Bush apologist? Because I don't agree with you does not make me a Bush apologist.

Have you bothered to read my remarks on how Iraq was a strategically bad move, a position I have held since before the war began?

Look for someone else to hang that tag on, it isn't me.

I don't have to crap all over GW Bush with each post to NOT be an apologist.

DR

[Dr Adequate]

By whom?

What have you done to make sure this happens in a lawful manner?

Which secret CIA prison to do you propose sending him to, and how will you get him there?

As you know, it is not lawful to torture US citizens in US prisons. Were you blissfully unaware of that minor detail?

DR EJA said "and torture", not "and tortured".

[Darth Rotor]

EJA said "and torture", not "and tortured".
Ah. Thanks.

DR

[hammegk]

Rumsfield should be tried for war crimes and torture rather than being allowed to resign after all his warmongering and lies.
Raise and army and come after him, loud-mouth. You already got recruits like Tongy, I mean Tony, Dr.A**hat, Crossbow, & some others here.

[fishbob]

Then why are you one of the biggest apologists-for-Bush on the forum?
I think you must have momentarily confused DR with hammegk.

[Darth Rotor]

Raise and army and come after him, loud-mouth. You already got recruits like Tongy, I mean Tony, Dr.A**hat, Crossbow, & some others here.
Well, uh, er, that sure showed 'em. :p

If I may offer some points for clarity in communication:

Raise an army

loudmouth (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loudmouth) (one given to loud, offensive talk as described @
loudmouthed (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loudmouthed))

"You already have recruits," or "you have already got recruits"

This public service announcement was brought to you by VATBOE (Volunteers Against The Butchery Of English).

DR

[Darth Rotor]

I think you must have momentarily confused DR with hammegk.
Thanks. :o A much more civil reply than my own. :o

DR

[hammegk]

Well, uh, er, that sure showed 'em. :p
You're a caution. Note: Not "Your a caution." Geez I hate that.


If I may offer some points for clarity in communication:

Raise an army
Bad me! Guess you understood the thrust, anyway. Hell, you can join the EJ boobmob too, if that floats your boat!


"You already have recruits," or "you have already got recruits"
Happy now?


This public service announcement was brought to you by VATBOE (Volunteers Against The Butchery Of English).
Is that associated with the Pedantic A**holes Assoc.? Are there any members -- in all senses -- besides you?

At least you don't seem to be a loudmouth Eurotrash/Aussienut US basher, or even worse a US citizen US basher. ;)

[qayak]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade but the new guy is notorious for finding whatever intelligence is necessary to support the administration's pre-existing position. Isn't that what got the U.S. into Iraq in the first place?

It's like replacing Kim Jong Il with the new guy, Idi Amin!

[Darth Rotor]

Is that associated with the Pedantic A**holes Assoc.?
Those guys are all splitters!
At least you don't seem to be a loudmouth Eurotrash/Aussienut US basher, or even worse a US citizen US basher. ;)
I am an American, and have been one since the day I was born.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade but the new guy is notorious for finding whatever intelligence is necessary to support the administration's pre-existing position. Isn't that what got the U.S. into Iraq in the first place?

Evidence?

I read an interesting bit the other day, regarding the "duck and cover" he managed as DDCI during Iran Contra . No charges. Forgot to save the link, sorry.

I suggest you look again at when Mr Gates was director of CIA. He is currently the Pres of Texas A & M.

DR