Pelosi: Just two heartbeats from the Presidency

[Tricky]

That's right. Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident Cheney's bad ticker could go and Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident, then Nancy Pelosi would be president, depriving Hillary Clinton the honor of being the first female POTUS.

Seriously, what does anybody think Pelosi will do with her new power? Will she be as confrontational as she is now? As far left? Will she try to reach across the aisle to win GOP support? Will any of them offer it?

Things could get interesting come January.

[Grammatron]

Something Political, but not as edgy since the party wants to win the White House.

[Upchurch]

As far left?
Is she?

[Tricky]

Is she?To hear the GOP, you'd think that she was to the left of Eugene V. Debs.

[Tony]

Will she be as confrontational as she is now?

I hope so, conservatives need to be on the defensive after the disaster they've created.

As far left?

On some issues, I hope so. It would also be great if the democrats could learn to keep their hands off the second amendment.

Will she try to reach across the aisle to win GOP support?

Again, I hope she does. By reaching for GOP support, she'll empower the moderates and marginalize the religious fundies. Not only that, she should reach across the aisle to set herself apart from the dictatorial Tom Delay.

[Upchurch]

I know next to nothing about her except that she was one who was really questioning Bush's supreme court nominations.

[Jocko]

That's a lot of tragic bicycle accidents, Tricky. Even he's not that clumsy.

Oh, by the way, both left and right know Pelosi is uber-left. The difference is only one of blame or praise, not degree.

[Upchurch]

Oh, by the way, both left and right know Pelosi is uber-left.
That's what I'm asking, based on what?

[headscratcher4]

Actually, as cheney has no heart...only one heart beat away.

[Darth Rotor]

Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident Cheney's bad ticker could go.

Sure, and Pelosi could die of electrocution when her vibrator shorts out. If I were Nancy, I'd be wary of Hillary and a pair of needle nosed pliers. :p

How about a substantive topic, such as how Pelosi will exercise her leadership, in her party and in the House, regarding what is near and dear to every politican's heart: appropriations. Money. Scratch. Moolah. Pork Barrel Politics.

DR

[Jocko]

That's what I'm asking, based on what?
Uh, her voting record?

Here (http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm) is the first reference I've found, but liberal organizations have similar conclusions (substituting credit for blame as appropriate). I'll try to find one.

[davefoc]

I am optimistic, at least more optimistic than I have been in awhile.

The key issue is Iraq. Solving Iraq needed new blood not committed to politicies designed to keep from proving past policies correct.

On this issue I see our leaders moving in the direction of acting like adults. What will now happen and was already happening to some degree is that all options will be analyzed on a do what is best basis and I have some confidence that the old paradigms of making decisions so as to enhance corporate partnerships, to cover past wrong decisions, to promote cronyism and to promote various neocon middle east fantasies are going to be replaced by decisions made by people who truly have a single minded goal. That is do what is best for Iraqis with an understanding that all significant US/UK involvment will end within a few years.

As to the rest, I think it remains to be seen. WIll Democrats move to redirect the Republican corruption machine to benefit Democrats? Who knows? Without the complicity of the president the congressional Republcian corruption machine would have been far less effective so maybe the fact of a Democratic congress and a Republican president will limit Democratic efforts to establish a corruption bureaucracy to replace the Republcian one and we will have an era of something like honest governance.

[BPSCG]

Money. Scratch. Moolah. Pork Barrel Politics.I keep tellin' y'all - she and Harry Reid and Howard Dean are buying Joe Lieberman all the fine wine, Cuban cigars, and high-priced hookers any unreasonable man could demand in exchange for his undying fealty. He's going to get a much nicer office come January.

[Tony]

Here (http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm) is the first reference I've found, but liberal organizations have similar conclusions (substituting credit for blame as appropriate). I'll try to find one.

None of that supports your assertion that she is "uber-left".

[Upchurch]

This is the surprisingly sparse wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelosi

She doesn't seem uber-left to me based on that. She even backed some of Bush's programs like No Child Left Behind.

[Charlie Monoxide]

It's refreshing to see a woman in a position that is usually held by some overweight, middle-aged, pro-life white dude.

The house definitely needed a shake-up and last night's election provided just that.

Charlie (now Rush has something to blather about) Monoxide

[Darth Rotor]

It's refreshing to see a woman in a position that is usually held by some overweight, middle-aged, pro-life white dude.

The house definitely needed a shake-up and last night's election provided just that.

Charlie (now Rush has something to blather about) Monoxide
A self important, menopausal, harridan is better how?

DR

[Upchurch]

Uh, her voting record?

Here (http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm) is the first reference I've found, but liberal organizations have similar conclusions (substituting credit for blame as appropriate). I'll try to find one.
The chart at the bottom of the page puts her just left of their Moderate cut-off on the left/right scale and dead center on the libertarian/populist scale.

[Mycroft]

That's right. Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident Cheney's bad ticker could go and Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident, then Nancy Pelosi would be president, depriving Hillary Clinton the honor of being the first female POTUS.

Seriously, what does anybody think Pelosi will do with her new power? Will she be as confrontational as she is now? As far left? Will she try to reach across the aisle to win GOP support? Will any of them offer it?

Things could get interesting come January.

Will it take two bicycle accidents to kill Bush?

[FreeChile]

That's right. Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident Cheney's bad ticker could go and Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident, then Nancy Pelosi would be president, depriving Hillary Clinton the honor of being the first female POTUS.

Seriously, what does anybody think Pelosi will do with her new power? Will she be as confrontational as she is now? As far left? Will she try to reach across the aisle to win GOP support? Will any of them offer it?

Things could get interesting come January.
She can gain all that now more realistically by impeaching Bush and Cheney.

[Upchurch]

Will it take two bicycle accidents to kill Bush?
1.8 bicycle accidents, but in the real world we have to round.

[CFLarsen]

This is the surprisingly sparse wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelosi

Sparse, but partisan:

Pelosi has also voted against repealing the Estate Tax, because she believes the government should continue to rob its citizens of their money at all costs. She has been an outspoken supporter of a balanced budget and has no tolerance for a deficit in federal spending; she hardly hesitates to-- in fact, she rejoices in the thought of-- substantially increasing taxes on all Americans for her deranged spending ambitions.
...
Pelosi is a reliable vote to restrict the ownership of firearms and concealed carry, and won't consider the 2nd Amendment as any roadblock to stop her.


Some entries in Wikipedia certainly are not as unbiased as could be desired...

[daredelvis]

The chart at the bottom of the page puts her just left of their Moderate cut-off on the left/right scale and dead center on the libertarian/populist scale.

Chirp, chirp, chirp. Joco was told to hate her, and that she would emancipate wimmen or something like that. He has no idea or reason to back up his statements.

Daredelvis

[Charlie Monoxide]

A self important, menopausal, harridan is better how?

DRWow, 2 female sexists ad homs against my agist, racist, weight-challenged ad homs.

Do you have issues with women?

Charlie (I love the vagina) Monoxide

[Tricky]

Will it take two bicycle accidents to kill Bush?Dang, that's what happens when you copy and paste rather than cut and paste.

I guess I just can't schwinn. Don't get all huffy about it, 'cause it raliegh doesn't matter.

[Crossbow]

To hear the GOP, you'd think that she was to the left of Eugene V. Debs.

True enough!

But then again, the GOP would be saying such things about ANY Democrat becoming Speaker of the House.

[Tricky]

Oh, by the way, both left and right know Pelosi is uber-left. The difference is only one of blame or praise, not degree.
No matter how far left she is, I don't think it's possible that she can be as far left as DeLay was far right. I sure hope Texas' nighmare is over for good with that guy.

[NotJesus]

The chart at the bottom of the page puts her just left of their Moderate cut-off on the left/right scale and dead center on the libertarian/populist scale.

And to the right wing, anyone even slightly left of center is now "uber-left." As for real uber-leftists, they're largely extinct in this country.

Run for your lives! The Speaker is a San Francisco ultra-loony!

[Upchurch]

Sparse, but partisan:

Some entries in Wikipedia certainly are not as unbiased as could be desired...
looking at the history, it has been vandilized quite a bit.

[Darth Rotor]

Wow, 2 female sexists ad homs against my agist, racist, sexist, weight-challenged ad homs.

Do you have issues with women?

Charlie (I love the vagina) Monoxide
No, do you have issues with men? (I added sexist for you) What is good for the goose is good for the gander. :p Equal opportunity abuse based on gender, fun for the whole dysfunctional family.

Did I need to add smilies to my post to indicate sarcasm? More "rolleyes?"

DR

[glsunder]

Uh, her voting record?

Here (http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm) is the first reference I've found, but liberal organizations have similar conclusions (substituting credit for blame as appropriate). I'll try to find one.

I noticed that site had almost all republicans pretty close to being moderate on their charts. So it seems they're a little skewed. Still, the site has some nice info collected.

[Upchurch]

Chirp, chirp, chirp. Joco was told to hate her, and that she would emancipate wimmen or something like that. He has no idea or reason to back up his statements.
I'm fully willing to believe there might be reason to think she's a far-left wacko. I just haven't heard what that reason might be.

[Tricky]

Did I need to add smilies to my post to indicate sarcasm? More "rolleyes?"
Just add some humor.

Give me "Dull as a box of hammers" for 200, Alex.

[Darth Rotor]

Just add some humor.

Give me "Dull as a box of hammers" for 200, Alex.

Workin' on it, boss. :p

DR

[KingMerv00]

Sparse, but partisan:

Quote:
Pelosi has also voted against repealing the Estate Tax, because she believes the government should continue to rob its citizens of their money at all costs. She has been an outspoken supporter of a balanced budget and has no tolerance for a deficit in federal spending; she hardly hesitates to-- in fact, she rejoices in the thought of-- substantially increasing taxes on all Americans for her deranged spending ambitions.
...
Pelosi is a reliable vote to restrict the ownership of firearms and concealed carry, and won't consider the 2nd Amendment as any roadblock to stop her.
Frickin dittoheads need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.

[AmateurScientist]

Tricky,

You forgot that Al Haig is in charge before Nancy.

AS

[KingMerv00]

And to the right wing, anyone even slightly left of center is now "uber-left." As for real uber-leftists, they're largely extinct in this country.

Run for your lives! The Speaker is a San Francisco ultra-loony!

I'm not sure I trust the chart. Darth Santorum is only slighty right wing according to them.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Rick_Santorum.htm

Edit:

HA! Even better they call him a "Libertarian Leaning" Conservative.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahhahahahahaha.....sigh.. ...

(Pictures Santorum hanging out with Penn Jillette.)

HAHAHAHAHHAHAA!

[Darth Rotor]

I'm not sure I trust the chart. Darth Santorum is only slighty right wing according to them.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Rick_Santorum.htm
Your lack of proper respect is disturbing, Merv. I suggest you take back that thinly veiled insult! :mad:

Rick Santorum has shown no evidence of a midochlorian count above zero, and is No True Sith! He has not earned the honorific "Darth" by any word or deed. San(ctimonious)torum may have caused a disturbance in the (usual political) farce, but not through any manipulation of the Force. ;)

DR

[NotJesus]

[Pelosi] has been an outspoken supporter of a balanced budget and has no tolerance for a deficit in federal spending.

Wasn't too long ago that was considered a conservative position.

[Darth Rotor]

Wasn't too long ago that was considered a conservative position.
Contract with America for fifty, Alex. :)

DR

[shuize]

[Pelosi] has been an outspoken supporter of a balanced budget and has no tolerance for a deficit in federal spending.

And now that Democrats have taken back the House, I'm sure we can look forward to that any day now.

Now about that bridge I wanted to show you ....

[shuize]

deleted

[BPSCG]

Americans for Democratic Action (http://www.adaction.org/about.htm) calls themselves, "America's oldest independent liberal lobbying organization." Their home page is practically weeping with joy today. They have House and Senate voting records going back to 1947. According to their web site: Each year, ADA's Legislative Committee selects 20 votes it considers the most important during that session. ADA's National Board and/or National Executive Committee approves those votes. Each member receives 5 points if he/she voted with ADA, and does not receive 5 points if he/she voted against us or was absent. The total possible is 100.I dug up Pelosi's record for the last ten years:
1996 - 95% - she missed a vote
1997 - 100%
1998 - 95% - missed a vote
1999 - 95% - missed a vote
2000 - 100%
2001 - 100%
2002 - 100%
2003 - 100%
2004 - 100%
2005 - 95% - missed a voteThere's your evidence: Ten years without once voting against the ADA position.

Go ahead. Make the argument that she isn't on the far left wing of the political spectrum.

[Tony]

Americans for Democratic Action (http://www.adaction.org/about.htm) calls themselves, "America's oldest independent liberal lobbying organization." Their home page is practically weeping with joy today. They have House and Senate voting records going back to 1947. According to their web site: I dug up Pelosi's record for the last ten years:
1996 - 95% - she missed a vote
1997 - 100%
1998 - 95% - missed a vote
1999 - 95% - missed a vote
2000 - 100%
2001 - 100%
2002 - 100%
2003 - 100%
2004 - 100%
2005 - 95% - missed a voteThere's your evidence: Ten years without once voting against the ADA position.

Go ahead. Make the argument that she isn't on the far left wing of the political spectrum.

Ok. Right after you show that she is on the far left wing of the political spectrum.

[varwoche]

Chirp, chirp, chirp. Joco was told to hate her, and that she would emancipate wimmen or something like that. He has no idea or reason to back up his statements. Don't you know she's from San Francisco?:demad:

[NotJesus]

"Each year, ADA's Legislative Committee selects 20 votes it considers the most important during that session. ADA's National Board and/or National Executive Committee approves those votes. Each member receives 5 points if he/she voted with ADA, and does not receive 5 points if he/she voted against us or was absent. The total possible is 100."

Americans for Democratic Action (http://www.adaction.org/about.htm) calls themselves, "America's oldest independent liberal lobbying organization." Their home page is practically weeping with joy today. They have House and Senate voting records going back to 1947. According to their web site: I dug up Pelosi's record for the last ten years:
1996 - 95% - she missed a vote
1997 - 100%
1998 - 95% - missed a vote
1999 - 95% - missed a vote
2000 - 100%
2001 - 100%
2002 - 100%
2003 - 100%
2004 - 100%
2005 - 95% - missed a voteThere's your evidence: Ten years without once voting against the ADA position.

Not quite. It's ten years without voting against them on one of their "most important" votes.

Go ahead. Make the argument that she isn't on the far left wing of the political spectrum.

Even if Pelosi is in total lockstep with ADA, you haven't demonstrated that they are on the far left. They call themselves liberal which, I'm sure, puts them far to the left of YOU, but that isn't the same thing.

[BPSCG]

Even if Pelosi is in total lockstep with ADA, you haven't demonstrated that they are on the far left. They call themselves liberal which, I'm sure, puts them far to the left of YOU, but that isn't the same thing.Translation: "I don't care what the evidence shows. I'm going to go Clausian on you before I admit that she's a left wingnut."

[pgwenthold]

Wasn't too long ago that was considered a conservative position.

When I was young, the idea that you don't buy what you can't pay for was a fairly conservative position. Then came Reagan.


(NOTE: not saying Reagan invented the concept, just that he took it to new levels)

[Upchurch]

I dug up Pelosi's record for the last ten years:
Where is that?

[Darth Rotor]

When I was young, the idea that you don't buy what you can't pay for was a fairly conservative position. Then came Reagan.


(NOTE: not saying Reagan invented the concept, just that he took it to new levels)
You are about 20 years late. LBJ's guns and butter policy preceded Reagan's trickle down wishful thinking policies. The Contract With America (Republican led, but with bipartisan support) was an attempt to correct both of those errors.

DR

[Upchurch]

Translation: "I don't care what the evidence shows. I'm going to go Clausian on you before I admit that she's a left wingnut."
Calm down, we haven't reached the Clausian Limit just yet.

We don't know what these "most important" votes are and by what criteria they are choosen. It sounds like it changes from year to year. For all we know, it could be those votes which are most important to the Democratic Party and not necessarily the most important to being a far left liberal.

But, I think it is safe to say that Pelosi does not vote Republican, which is to be expected.

[Darth Rotor]

She won her first election running as an environmentalist and champion of AIDS prevention.
If you recall Rush's early years, his pet target what environmentalist whackos. Nancy fit the bill, or at least catered to it.

AIDS prevention: how does the government do that? It's a personal responsibility issue, as well as a medical safety practices issue. I suppose governments can (and should) conduct public information campaigns in the interest of public health. Not sure either party is "against" that.

DR

[BPSCG]

Where is that?Here (http://www.adaction.org/about.htm).

[Lurker]

To hear the GOP, you'd think that she was to the left of Eugene V. Debs.


It is rather homorous how whoever the lead Democrat in hte news of the day is the Republicans will proceed to paint that Dem as the most liberal person in Congress (or whatever function they serve in).

To wit, think of Howard Dean being painted as the most liberal Governor in the US. Or how about Kerry being painted as the most liberal person in the Senate. Now it is Pelosi's turn to be painted as the most liberal person in Congress. Soon it will be Clinton's turn to be the most liberal person in teh Senate.

Hannity is especially guilty of charging people like this as if all Democrats can simultaneously be the most liberal person alive. :)

Lurker

[pgwenthold]

If you recall Rush's early years, his pet target what environmentalist whackos. Nancy fit the bill, or at least catered to it.



Of course, this could be a case of when you are so far to the right, then anything toward the center looks left.

Rush was at the other end of the environmentalist whacko scale. One thing I remember was he bragged about he stood outside spraying an aerosol spray can into the air.

You can argue about the role of CFCs all you want, but no one would be stupid enough to argue that they are GOOD for the atmosphere or that they should be indiscriminately dumped there. Except Rush. And he bragged about it.

Talk about environmental whacko.

[Darth Rotor]

Of course, this could be a case of when you are so far to the right, then anything toward the center looks left.

Rush was at the other end of the environmentalist whacko scale. One thing I remember was he bragged about he stood outside spraying an aerosol spray can into the air.

You can argue about the role of CFCs all you want, but no one would be stupid enough to argue that they are GOOD for the atmosphere or that they should be indiscriminately dumped there. Except Rush. And he bragged about it.

Talk about environmental whacko.
He was funnier back then, before the threshold event of his "Shafting of America campaign." That was the beginning of him taking himself waaaay too seriously.

Me, I'd like to go shoot a spotted owl. :p

DR

[daredelvis]

If you recall Rush's early years, his pet target what environmentalist whackos. Nancy fit the bill, or at least catered to it.

AIDS prevention: how does the government do that? It's a personal responsibility issue, as well as a medical safety practices issue. I suppose governments can (and should) conduct public information campaigns in the interest of public health. Not sure either party is "against" that.

DR

Education, especially condom use is a huge factor in AIDS prevention. The government should play a role in this if just from a strictly fiscal standpoint. The GOP is firmly against condom use / education therefor the GOP is against AIDS prevention.

Daredelvis

[Major Billy]

There's your evidence: Ten years without once voting against the ADA position. Go ahead. Make the argument that she isn't on the far left wing of the political spectrum.The Americans For Democratic Action was an anti-Communist organization founded by Hubert Humphrey (et al), a liberal Senator from Minnesota but hardly a leftist. The far-left loathed him.

Now go back to Russia . ;)

[Darth Rotor]

The GOP is firmly against condom use / education therefore the GOP is against AIDS prevention.
Daredelvis
How do you come up with that? Urban legend, perhaps?

(BTW, I love your pun: "firmly against condom use!" :D )

DR

[Tony]

The Americans For Democratic Action was an anti-Communist organization founded by Hubert Humphrey (et al), a liberal Senator from Minnesota but hardly a leftist. The far-left loathed him.

Now go back to Russia . ;)

Stop it, you're getting in the way of some woo demagoguery.

[Upchurch]

Here (http://www.adaction.org/about.htm).
sorry, that isn't what I meant. I was asking where you go the information about Pelosi's voting record. That link sends me to a page about the ADA.

[Upchurch]

How do you come up with that? Urban legend, perhaps?
My guess is that it comes from the abstinence-only sex education programs that the GOP has been pushing for years (decades?).

[Luke T.]

Just to provide some individual links that BPSG didn't for ADA's rating of Pelosi's "Liberal Quotient", as they call it. In the links, you can compare her to every other Congressperson.

1999 (http://www.adaction.org/1999vrhlq.html), she gets 95 percent.

2000 (http://www.adaction.org/housevr2000.html), she gets 100 percent, while beating Ted Kennedy and tying Paul Wellstone (http://www.adaction.org/senatevr2000.html).

2002 (http://www.adaction.org/HouseVR2002.htm), she gets 100 percent, tying Ted Kennedy and Paul Wellstone (http://www.adaction.org/SenateVR2002.htm).

2003 (http://www.adaction.org/2003housevr.htm), she gets 100 percent, beating Ted Kennedy (http://www.adaction.org/2003senatevr.htm).

2005 (http://www.adaction.org/2005HouseVRweb.htm), she gets 95 percent, tying Ted Kennedy (http://www.adaction.org/2005SenateVRweb.htm).


ADA is overjoyed to see a solid liberal in the #2 spot of the House Democratic hierarchy; Pelosi scored an amazing 100% liberal rating in the 2000 ADA voting record. Her lifetime liberal rating is 95%, compared with 83% for the more moderate Hoyer. To quote the Los Angeles Times, "Pelosi's victory over Hoyer was a reminder that the Democratic caucus remains solidly liberal."

http://www.adaction.org/newsandnotes10-12.html

[varwoche]

Americans for Democratic Action (http://www.adaction.org/about.htm) ... I dug up Pelosi's record for the last ten years Twenty votes is an awfully small data sample, yielding results (from 2000) such as (http://adaction.org/senatevr2000.html):

Fritz Hollings from SC, decidedly moderate: 85%

Barbara Boxer from CA, decidedly liberal: 85%

[Darth Rotor]

My guess is that it comes from the abstinence-only sex education programs that the GOP has been pushing for years (decades?).

In all states? At the federal level?
Abstinence only is the policy (and a failed one) in Texas, regarding school treatment of risks inherent in sex.

I do not hold to the notion that the state is responsible, however. I hold the position that the primary responsibility is the parents', and we have acted on that with both of our children.

Abstinence is a good idea for a lot of reasons, but you need to have a back up plan.

DR

[RandFan]

Tricky,

You forgot that Al Haig is in charge before Nancy.

AS:D Haig is never going to live that one down.

[Upchurch]

I do not hold to the notion that the state is responsible, however. I hold the position that the primary responsibility is the parents', and we have acted on that with both of our children.
Nor do I, but irregardless abstinence-only has been pushed by the GOP as their sex education method of choice for a good long time now. I would guess that this is where people get the idea that they are against condom education.

There is also the fairly close ties between religious conservatives, who strongly oppose birth control, and the GOP that only helps to add to the perception.

[varwoche]

2005 (http://www.adaction.org/2005HouseVRweb.htm), she gets 95 percent, tying Ted Kennedy (http://www.adaction.org/2005SenateVRweb.htm). And yet ranking marginally less liberal than 65 house members, tied with 46 of them, and only marginally more liberal than 32 of them (at 90%).

In 2005, 200 of the 435 representatives were democrats. Some quick math tells us that that of these 200 democrats, 143 of them were ranked at 90% or higher.

Funny how you cherry-pick Ted Kennedy to make your point.

What I knew before this thread: Pelosi is a democrat who, like most democrats, is liberal.
What I know after this thread: Pelosi is a democrat who, like most democrats, is liberal.

[Regnad Kcin]

It is rather homorous how whoever the lead Democrat in hte news of the day is the Republicans will proceed to paint that Dem as the most liberal person in Congress (or whatever function they serve in).

To wit, think of Howard Dean being painted as the most liberal Governor in the US. Or how about Kerry being painted as the most liberal person in the Senate. Now it is Pelosi's turn to be painted as the most liberal person in Congress. Soon it will be Clinton's turn to be the most liberal person in teh Senate.

Hannity is especially guilty of charging people like this as if all Democrats can simultaneously be the most liberal person alive. :)

LurkerIt is humorous. And almost as if it were intentional.

[NotJesus]

Translation: "I don't care what the evidence shows. I'm going to go Clausian on you before I admit that she's a left wingnut."

Even for you, this is pathetic. The evidence clearly shows that she's a liberal. No one denies that. Liberal does not equal "left wingnut."

Try again.

[BPSCG]

Twenty votes is an awfully small data sampleWhich is why I went for ten years' worth of votes, where she never falls below 95%, and then, not because she strayed off the reservation, but just because she missed a couple of votes.

How much better than 100%, year after year, does she have to get before you decide, "Well, yeah, I guess she really is pretty damn liberal..."?

[BPSCG]

Even for you, this is pathetic. The evidence clearly shows that she's a liberal. No one denies that. Liberal does not equal "left wingnut."

Try again.Funny, that, 'cuz all these years, we kept hearing how the most conservative Republicans are all "right wingnuts."

I guess it depends whose ox is being gored.

[Upchurch]

Funny, that, 'cuz all these years, we kept hearing how the most conservative Republicans are all "right wingnuts."
I researve the term for those conservatives who do crazy things like re-writing history to make the US into a Christian Nation or who want to trample basic American principles.

The trouble is that the wingnuts on both sides are usually the ones who make the news, so I'm sure it seems like most.

[NotJesus]

Funny, that, 'cuz all these years, we kept hearing how the most conservative Republicans are all "right wingnuts."

I guess it depends whose ox is being gored.

"The liberals do it too," though true, is not a compelling argument in your favor.

Why don't you try naming some of Pelosi's positions that you find extreme? So far you've mentioned zero.

Is raising the minimum wage a left wingnut position?

[Darth Rotor]

The trouble is that the wingnuts on both sides are usually the ones who make the news, so I'm sure it seems like most.
That's on the mark.

Good government should be boring. The actual processes of working through legislation and deal making is a grind. The more work done in that mode, the less time for hot air attacks.

The more self promoting bruhaha, the worse the government, would be my sense. We are not getting good value for the money.

DR

[Upchurch]

Is raising the minimum wage a left wingnut position?
I'll give some examples of what I think are right wingnut positions:


Teaching ID (or nuttier) as an alternate theory to evolution in the science classroom.
Constitutional Amendment banning flag burning.
Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage.
Declaration that the US is a Christian Nation/"Separation of Church and State" is a myth.


When a politician backs these positions, they immediately loose credibility in my book as being a far right extremist.

I almost added the abstinence only sex education thing, but I think that is a reasonable position. It's one I don't agree with, but it isn't irrational to designate "wingnut" status.

[Oxymoron]

whistle...whistle....on a bicycle built for two....whistle whistle....

Bushy- "huh,"

screeching of tires..sound of crunching metal and aluminium...tick..tick...tick....tick.....tick. The playing card in the spokes finally stops.

Cheney- "What do you mean the Presidents been run over by a garbage truck?"

"oh....no...." Thump.

beep..beep.. beep..beep beep...beep....beep.....beep.........beep......... .......beep..................
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

CLEAR! beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee p.

CLEAR! beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee p.

Secret service- "This way Madam President."

:popcorn1

[Dave1001]

She's the first woman to lead a branch of govt. in the US. Pretty impressive.

[Tony]

I'll give some examples of what I think are right wingnut positions:


Teaching ID (or nuttier) as an alternate theory to evolution in the science classroom.
Constitutional Amendment banning flag burning.
Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage.
Declaration that the US is a Christian Nation/"Separation of Church and State" is a myth.


When a politician backs these positions, they immediately loose credibility in my book as being a far right extremist.

I almost added the abstinence only sex education thing, but I think that is a reasonable position. It's one I don't agree with, but it isn't irrational to designate "wingnut" status.

What about the idea that life begins at conception. Do you classify that as a wingnut position?

[Upchurch]

She's the first woman to lead a branch of govt. in the US. Pretty impressive.
Well, half a branch. Still, :clap:

[EBU]

"The liberals do it too," though true, is not a compelling argument in your favor.

Why don't you try naming some of Pelosi's positions that you find extreme? So far you've mentioned zero.

Is raising the minimum wage a left wingnut position?

This discussion got me interested in Nancy Pelosi's positions, and I found this very informative web site:

http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm

It calls her a hard-core liberal. (And it calls Dick Cheney a moderate populist conservative.)

[firecoins]

Pelosi represents San Fransisco. I am sure she is more left than most as she is suppodely representative of the San Fransisco population.

[Upchurch]

What about the idea that life begins at conception. Do you classify that as a wingnut position?
Yeah, I dunno. I don't think it does, but I can understand why some people do: It's a simple descrete objective event that one can uniquely identify. Otherwise, you have to try to identify a gradually reached development stage that would be hard to pinpoint.

Again, its something I don't agree with, but I consider it at least a mostly rational position. So, I guess I wouldn't consider it a wingnut position.

[Upchurch]

Pelosi represents San Fransisco. I am sure she is more left than most as she is suppodely representative of the San Fransisco population.
In 2000, was Bush representative of the US?

[Upchurch]

http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm
That's the same site Jocko referenced.

[firecoins]

In 2000, was Bush representative of the US?
House members tend to be much more representative than people requiring statewide or national elections because they cover smaller election districts. Pelesoi is more representative of San Fransisco than Bush is even though Bush's jurisdiction includes San Fran.

I guess in 2004 Bush became more representative?

[BPSCG]

"The liberals do it too," though true, is not a compelling argument in your favor.

Why don't you try naming some of Pelosi's positions that you find extreme? So far you've mentioned zero.

Is raising the minimum wage a left wingnut position?Uh, yeah. Ignoring the law of supply and demand has consequences just as disasterous as ignoring the law of gravity - just not as sudden. Saying, "I don't believe in supply and demand" is just as ignorant as saying, "I don't believe in evolution."

[Tony]

Uh, yeah. Ignoring the law of supply and demand has consequences just as disasterous as ignoring the law of gravity - just not as sudden.

What a joke, you're actually comparing a solid scientific fact with a free-market crack-pot theory that has a long history of being proven wrong.

[Upchurch]

I guess in 2004 Bush became more representative?
I suppose.

Jim Talent was my rep for 5 years or so. He didn't represent many of my views. My point is that its guilt by association. What is it she has actually done?

[varwoche]

Uh, yeah. Ignoring the law of supply and demand has consequences just as disasterous as ignoring the law of gravity - just not as sudden. Saying, "I don't believe in supply and demand" is just as ignorant as saying, "I don't believe in evolution." According to this whimsical criteria, a vast majority of democrats are wingnuts (and many republicans too). Now I understand why you think Pelosi is a wingnut.

And echoing Tony, equating the fuzzy economic realm with not-so-fuzzy evolution is absurd.

[DavidJames]

Saying, "I don't believe in supply and demand" is just as ignorant as saying, "I don't believe in evolution."I sure would like to see the source of that quote.

[KingMerv00]

BPSCG,

What is the most leftwing thing she has ever done or said in your opinion?

[firecoins]

I suppose.

Jim Talent was my rep for 5 years or so. He didn't represent many of my views. My point is that its guilt by association. What is it she has actually done?
No conservative will get elected in San Fransisco.

Both Pelosi and myself are pro choice and pro gay marriage, well she is at least pro civil union. Peliosi has name called Pres. Bush up until last Tueday at least calling him any number of names. By definition of conservatives we are both liberal extremists who support liberal judges superceding the vote of the people.

[BPSCG]

What a joke, you're actually comparing a solid scientific fact with a free-market crack-pot theory that has a long history of being proven wrong.More content-free postings courtesy of Tony. Instead of invective, why not explain why the law of supply and demand applies to all the costs of doing business except for labor?

[Upchurch]

okay, instead of beating up on each other, how about we try to find some common ground that we can agree on?

What is it that we are defining as "far left"?

I've already listed what I thought were far right. I'll take a stab at far left.


Parents who hope that at least one of their children is gay.*
Abolishment of the standing military.
Removal of all fire arms in the US.


Certainly incomplete, but it was the best I could come up with on short notice.



* true story: I personally know one, maybe two, couples who feel this way. Not that I'm anti-gay, but why would you wish a life of conflict and possible prejudice on your children?

[Upchurch]

More content-free postings courtesy of Tony. Instead of invective, why not explain why the law of supply and demand applies to all the costs of doing business except for labor?
I'm no expert on the subject, but I'm guessing it is because we, as a society, decided that we did not want an "anything goes" policy when it comes to labor.

I am not a big fan of unions. I consider them analogous to medicine: essential if you sick, harmful if you aren't. If labor were truely dictated by the law of supply and demand, we'd still have children working in factories with no regulation of safety standards for pennies a day.

[Darth Rotor]

okay, instead of beating up on each other, how about we try to find some common ground that we can agree on?

What is it that we are defining as "far left"?

I've already listed what I thought were far right. I'll take a stab at far left.


Parents who hope that at least one of their children is gay.*
Abolishment of the standing military.
Removal of all fire arms in the US.


Abolishment of the standing military.
A solidly loony left position.

No congressman worth her/his salt is going to dump a base in his/her district without some form of pork pay back, unless said rep is willing to risk being out in two years. It has become part of the gravy train.

Here's a tip: the 1993 BRAC ended up in FEWER reductions in bases, fewer consolidations, than the Military panel charged with the process recommended, not more. Why? Congressional budget authority. :D

Porky Pig FTW!!

DR

[CFLarsen]

okay, instead of beating up on each other, how about we try to find some common ground that we can agree on?

What is it that we are defining as "far left"?

I've already listed what I thought were far right. I'll take a stab at far left.


Parents who hope that at least one of their children is gay.*
Abolishment of the standing military.
Removal of all fire arms in the US.


Certainly incomplete, but it was the best I could come up with on short notice.



* true story: I personally know one, maybe two, couples who feel this way. Not that I'm anti-gay, but why would you wish a life of conflict and possible prejudice on your children?

Do you think I am on the "far left"?

[Upchurch]

Do you think I am on the "far left"?
I hadn't really considered it. I suppose it is a matter of context. We're talking about the American political spectrum and you aren't American.

[Darth Rotor]

Do you think I am on the "far left"?
As I look at the map, from America to Denmark one has to go right (east) across the Atlantic Ocean. So, you are to the right, but the "far right" is in Japan. :p

DR

[NotJesus]

Well, so far we've identified ONE position of Nancy Pelosi's which allegedly puts her on the far wingnut left -- a minimum wage increase. Judging by the polls about this issue, most Americans must be on the far left -- a bad sign for conservatives.

Is there anything else?

[Tony]

Well, so far we've identified ONE position of Nancy Pelosi's which allegedly puts her on the far wingnut left -- a minimum wage increase. Judging by the polls about this issue, most Americans must be on the far left --


America: Land of the free, home of the commies. :D

[firecoins]

The far left beliefs to my understanding...

- The US is the source of oppression worldwide. The US should not be a super power, should not impose on other cultures, should not conduct free trade, outsource anything overseas, follow all international treaties that hold the US to a higher standard the other signees even when those other signees surpass the US economically (China and India will soon)

- Supports women rights is Western culture but opposses them in non Western culture as it would be racist for a White culture to impose on people on color in Non-Western societites.

- Corporations are the root of all evil and in particular Walmart, the Oil Industry, The Car Industry and the Defense Industry

- Supports free speech as long as it does not include Rush Limbaugh, Fox News or anything that does not fall into the liberal version of political correctness.

- Oppose the 2nd amendment

more to come later

[Tony]

The far left beliefs to my understanding...

- The US is the source of oppression worldwide. The US should not be a super power, should not impose on other cultures, should not conduct free trade, outsource anything overseas, follow all international treaties that hold the US to a higher standard the other signees even when those other signees surpass the US economically (China and India will soon)

- Supports women rights is Western culture but opposses them in non Western culture as it would be racist for a White culture to impose on people on color in Non-Western societites.
- Corporations are the root of all evil and in particular Walmart, the Oil Industry, The Car Industry and the Defense Industry

- Supports free speech as long as it isn't Rush Limbaugh, Fox News or anything that does not fall in political correctness.

- Oppose the 2nd amendment

more to come later

When did communsim depart the "far left"?

[firecoins]

When did communsim depart the "far left"?
It hasn't . So add democratic socialism and communism.

[steverino]

That's right. Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident Cheney's bad ticker could go and Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident, then Nancy Pelosi would be president, depriving Hillary Clinton the honor of being the first female POTUS.

Seriously, what does anybody think Pelosi will do with her new power? Will she be as confrontational as she is now? As far left? Will she try to reach across the aisle to win GOP support? Will any of them offer it?

Things could get interesting come January.

Exactly. And if Pelosi does become president, then in 2008 Hillary would have to lick her.

[Tony]

It hasn't . So add democratic socialism and communism.


Aww, well. That's a pretty scary boogyman you've got there. Good luck with that.

[Darth Rotor]

Exactly. And if Pelosi does become president, then in 2008 Hillary would have to lick her.
I am still scrubbing my eyes, but that horrific visual won't go away.

Damn you! :D

DR

[EBU]

The far left beliefs to my understanding...

- The US is the source of oppression worldwide. The US should not be a super power, should not impose on other cultures, should not conduct free trade, outsource anything overseas, follow all international treaties that hold the US to a higher standard the other signees even when those other signees surpass the US economically (China and India will soon)

- Supports women rights is Western culture but opposses them in non Western culture as it would be racist for a White culture to impose on people on color in Non-Western societites.

- Corporations are the root of all evil and in particular Walmart, the Oil Industry, The Car Industry and the Defense Industry

- Supports free speech as long as it does not include Rush Limbaugh, Fox News or anything that does not fall into the liberal version of political correctness.

- Oppose the 2nd amendment

more to come later

OK, so is there any evidence that Nancy Pelosi believes that stuff?

[Major Billy]

Nancy Pelosi supports this far-left scheme (http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/articles.cfm?pressReleaseID=1617).

[EBU]

Nancy Pelosi supports this far-left scheme (http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/articles.cfm?pressReleaseID=1617).

Net Neutrality is supported by the Christian Coalition.

[Upchurch]

- The US is the source of oppression worldwide. The US should not be a super power, should not impose on other cultures, should not conduct free trade, outsource anything overseas, follow all international treaties that hold the US to a higher standard the other signees even when those other signees surpass the US economically (China and India will soon)
Of the underlined, that sounds like anti-globalization to me, which I thought globalization was supposed to be a Democratic position?

Of the italic, I'm not sure how that is a far-left position. Shouldn't we follow the treaties that we sign? If we feel they are unbalanced, we shouldn't sign them in the first place. But once we've signed them, aren't we obligated to abide by them?

- Supports women rights is Western culture but opposses them in non Western culture as it would be racist for a White culture to impose on people on color in Non-Western societites.
This sounds like you're refering to something specific, but I don't know what. Could you give me an example?

- Corporations are the root of all evil and in particular Walmart, the Oil Industry, The Car Industry and the Defense Industry

- Supports free speech as long as it does not include Rush Limbaugh, Fox News or anything that does not fall into the liberal version of political correctness.
Sounds about right. or left, as the case may be.

- Oppose the 2nd amendment
I would agree, as long as we don't confuse opposing the Second Amendment with interpretting the Second Amendment differntly than the right.

[fuelair]

That's right. Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident Cheney's bad ticker could go and Bush could be involved in a tragic bicycle accident, then Nancy Pelosi would be president, depriving Hillary Clinton the honor of being the first female POTUS.

Seriously, what does anybody think Pelosi will do with her new power? Will she be as confrontational as she is now? As far left? Will she try to reach across the aisle to win GOP support? Will any of them offer it?

Things could get interesting come January.

I'm looking forward to her being President by, say, January 31st!!!. Go Nancy!!!:D :D :D

[Snide]

Uh, yeah. Ignoring the law of supply and demand has consequences just as disasterous as ignoring the law of gravity - just not as sudden. Saying, "I don't believe in supply and demand" is just as ignorant as saying, "I don't believe in evolution."Please explain how favoring an increase in the minimum wage is the same as saying "I don't believe in supply and demand."

[ZirconBlue]

According to this whimsical criteria, a vast majority of democrats are wingnuts (and many republicans too).

I think the vast majority of politicians are wingnuts.

[UserGoogol]

Hardcore liberal != far left wing. They're completely different concepts. Far left means stuff like being a communist or whatever.

Uh, yeah. Ignoring the law of supply and demand has consequences just as disasterous as ignoring the law of gravity - just not as sudden. Saying, "I don't believe in supply and demand" is just as ignorant as saying, "I don't believe in evolution."

Increasing minimum wage does not neccesarily mean that you ignore the forces of supply and demand. For instance, it's extremely possible that the minimum wage will be set below the equilibrium point, and therefore all that it will do is help people who are stuck in situations where there isn't enough competition to drive things to equilibrium. Or alternatively, a person can simply think that a labor glut isn't really all that bad.

[fuelair]

In 2000, was Bush representative of the US?
NO! Remember he lost the popular vote even if you do not subscribe (I do) to the stolen election CT (well, actually, the evidence is clear on that one - they got much better in '04. Just glad they haven't been able to get it good enough to do lots of smaller elections. Yet)

[firecoins]

Of the underlined, that sounds like anti-globalization to me, which I thought globalization was supposed to be a Democratic position?

Unions oppose the taking of American jobs and giving it to cheap foreign labor. Environmentalists oppose American corps outsourcing because the environmental laws are less stringent to non existant in 3rd world countries. Both groups are supporters of the Democrats. Socialists and Communist naturally oppose anything that help evil corporations which globilization does.

The left and right come together in certain situations so anti globilization exists in certain respects on both sides.

Of the italic, I'm not sure how that is a far-left position. Shouldn't we follow the treaties that we sign? If we feel they are unbalanced, we shouldn't sign them in the first place. But once we've signed them, aren't we obligated to abide by them?
Treaties must be signed and than approved by Congress. Kyouto was signed but flat out rejected by Congress including many Dems. Kyoto was unbalanced according to reports I have read but I have not read the treaty. If it is in fact unbalanced, than the few Dems who did support would be "extremists" by default. I use the word extremists lightly cause I support envionmental favorable policy but not necessarily everything pro environment.



This sounds like you're refering to something specific, but I don't know what. Could you give me an example?

I have had some female friends who were women's rights activists. Some of the opinions voiced by them have given me the opinion, an I mean it changable, that they have problems with Western societies treatment of women but were unwilling to condem treatment of women in male dominated cultures in Africa or the Middle East because it would be racist in their opinion. I have seen the opinion voiced in student publication on collge campuses including Harvard's Crimson but can't find a link. I don't know that I can "prove" this opinion and certainly cant attribute it to Nancy Pelosi.

edit: http://www.reason.com/news/show/31979.html This article from Reason magazine better expresses my point on women's rights versus mulitculturism.

[Tony]

Instead of invective, why not explain why the law of supply and demand applies to all the costs of doing business except for labor?

Explain why it should apply to labor.

[firecoins]

Explain why it should apply to labor.
Supply and Demand definatly applies to labor whether a group of politicans like it or not. If it didn't you could set the minimum wage at $100/hr but it does.

[Tony]

Supply and Demand definatly applies to labor whether a group of politicans like it or not. If it didn't you could set the minimum wage at $100/hr but it does.

I'm not contesting whether it does apply, I'm contesting whether it should apply, atleast, (because I don't buy the contention that raising the min wage means that we're completely killing S&D) to the extent that we should allow people to work for peanuts should supply and demand dictate. Which is what BPSCG is arguing.

[firecoins]

I'm not contesting whether it does apply, I'm contesting whether it should apply, atleast, (because I don't buy the contention that raising the min wage means that we're completely killing S&D) to the extent that we should allow people to work for peanuts should supply and demand dictate. Which is what BPSCG is arguing.

Understanding of how S&D are affected by minumwage need to be understood by decisionmakers. If it isn't, what is to prevent the minimum wage being raised a ridiculous amount? Businesses were able to absorb higher oil prices so it isn't economically unfeasible to raise minimum wage to some extent.

[DavidJames]

It seems to me if one is to equate belief in raising the minimum wage is the same as saying they don't believe in supply and demand I would argue belief in making it illegal for 6 year olds to own automatic weapons is the same as saying they believe in gun control.

[Tony]

Understanding of how S&D are affected by minumwage need to be understood by decisionmakers. If it isn't, what is to prevent the minimum wage being raised a ridiculous amount?

I agree, but why is this only a concern with min wage and other policies that benefit joe-six-pack? I didn't hear complaining by the "free market" crowd when oil prices were artificially inflated or when the salaries of CEO's were raised to ridiculous heights.

[Upchurch]

The left and right come together in certain situations so anti globilization exists in certain respects on both sides.
If it exists on both sides, are these far left positions?

Treaties must be signed and than approved by Congress. Kyouto was signed but flat out rejected by Congress including many Dems. Kyoto was unbalanced according to reports I have read but I have not read the treaty. If it is in fact unbalanced, than the few Dems who did support would be "extremists" by default. I use the word extremists lightly cause I support envionmental favorable policy but not necessarily everything pro environment.
I still don't understand how this supports following signed, but inconvenient, treaties as a far left attribute.

Some of the opinions voiced by them have given me the opinion, an I mean it changable, that they have problems with Western societies treatment of women but were unwilling to condem treatment of women in male dominated cultures in Africa or the Middle East because it would be racist in their opinion.
I think you, and the article's author, are lumping two very complex issues into one pot. (Well, one complex issue and one fairly straight forward issue) There is a vast difference between working for change in one's own culture and forcing change to someone else's culture. Just because you feel the right to do it in the former does not mean that you automatically ought to feel the right to do it in the latter, and not doing so does not necessarily indicate a contradiction. There are more principles in play in the latter and presenting the two as equal is an over-simplification.

[firecoins]

If it exists on both sides, are these far left positions? The anti-globilaztion left focuses anything that helps corporations and in particular American Corps. It see globilazation as something that furthers American imperialism and world control by corporations

The far right anti globilzations focuses on anti-UN, 1 world government type of stuff. It believes in America first. In even further extremes, it includes a pro White Christian America first.



I still don't understand how this supports following signed, but inconvenient, treaties as a far left attribute.

What makes it a staple of the far left is it sees America as the root of all evil. Again there varying degrees of this.

[firecoins]

edited

[Upchurch]

The anti-globilaztion left focuses anything that helps corporations and in particular American Corps. It see globilazation as something that furthers American imperialism and world control by corporations
Seems to me that's two issues: Anti-corporations (already mentioned) and anti-imperialism, not anti-globalism per se.

The far right anti globilzations focuses on anti-UN, 1 world government type of stuff. It believes in America first. In even further extremes, it includes a pro White Christian America first.
Agreed.

What makes it a staple of the far left is it sees America as the root of all evil. Again there varying degrees of this.
Okay, I guess so.

[firecoins]

I agree, but why is this only a concern with min wage and other policies that benefit joe-six-pack? I didn't hear complaining by the "free market" crowd when oil prices were artificially inflated or when the salaries of CEO's were raised to ridiculous heights.
The minum wage is a direct interference with the free market. It is the government making a decision that the price of low level labor is too low and we are going to raise it. Thats why supply and demand keep coming up.

On the oil market, the first major interference in the free market is OPEC which are several non US governments controlling the supply side of oil, raising or lowering the supply to affect prices. It isn't as simple as oil companies purposly raising the price on their own.

[firecoins]

Seems to me that's two issues: Anti-corporations (already mentioned) and anti-imperialism, not anti-globalism per se.

It comes from 2 different groups of the "far left" One is more anti corporation, pro union while one is more anti American Imperialism. Both claim to be anti globalism.

As for the women's rights versus multiculturism, it may infact be oversimplification. But is seems to be a very far left one to me is all.

[Tony]

The minum wage is a direct interference with the free market.

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. Laws against slavery also interfere directly with the free market. Sometimes market interference is essential to maintaining personal freedom and societal prosperity.

It is the government making a decision that the price of low level labor is too low and we are going to raise it. Thats why supply and demand keep coming up.

That's assuming companies aren't already under paying their employees.

[firecoins]

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. Laws against slavery also interfere directly with the free market. Sometimes market interference is essential to maintaining personal freedom and societal prosperity.



That's assuming companies aren't already under paying their employees.
No anti slvery laws don't interfere with the free market. Minimum wage laws are not a bad thing. Your right, sometimes there is a need for gov't interference. I am of the opinion the less the better, but there are instances where it is necessary. Anti Monopoly laws come to mind. Environmental laws also come to mind.

[Upchurch]

No anti slvery laws don't interfere with the free market. Minimum wage laws are not a bad thing. Your right, sometimes there is a need for gov't interference. I am of the opinion the less the better, but there are instances where it is necessary. Anti Monopoly laws come to mind. Environmental laws also come to mind.
I'd like to reiterate that child labor laws and work place safety laws are good government interference.

[NotJesus]

I'd like to reiterate that child labor laws and work place safety laws are good government interference.

Wingnut!

[Tony]

No anti slvery laws don't interfere with the free market.

They don't? Telling companies that they can't exploit slave labor to cut costs isn't interfering with the market?

Minimum wage laws are not a bad thing. Your right, sometimes there is a need for gov't interference. I am of the opinion the less the better, but there are instances where it is necessary. Anti Monopoly laws come to mind. Environmental laws also come to mind.

"Less is better" is sort of over-simplified. There needs to be a balance between the needs of the market and the needs of the country/society/the individual.

[firecoins]

They don't? Telling companies that they can't exploit slave labor to cut costs isn't interfering with the market?
.
Define slave labor.

The complexities of economics and the laws that regulate it are too large to do in a post on a message forum.

[firecoins]

I'd like to reiterate that child labor laws and work place safety laws are good government interference.
noted

[Tony]

Define slave labor.


Labor that is done unwillingly and without, or extremely little, monetary compensation. The key part being "unwillingly".

[firecoins]

Labor that is done unwillingly and without, or extremely little, monetary compensation. The key part being "unwillingly".
show me some evidence on unwilling workers. I have no problem with companies using cheap labor in foreign countries.

[Tony]

show me some evidence on unwilling workers. I have no problem with companies using cheap labor in foreign countries.

I wasn't speaking about a specific story.

[Sandy M]

No conservative will get elected in San Fransisco.


John Barbagelata
Quentin Kopp

Both conservative, one Repub/one Demo - eventually IND. Elected many times to SF Board of Supes. Kopp became a State Senator, Superior Court Judge.

[firecoins]

I wasn't speaking about a specific story.
Yes I am against slavery. Thats an easy one. Am I against low wage workers who work 12 hour days? Not necessarily but it isn't so simple. Does worker exploitation happen? Yes it does. These countries are going through an industrial revolution. Much the same thing happaned in the US and Europe. As third world economies grow, so must worker's rights and their legal systems/government's must develop.

[firecoins]

John Barbagelata
Quentin Kopp

Both conservative, one Repub/one Demo - eventually IND. Elected many times to SF Board of Supes. Kopp became a State Senator, Superior Court Judge.
what makes them conservative?

NYC Mayor Bloomberg is a Republican. He is pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, he is trying to enact the toughest gun control laws in the nation and made cigarettes illegal in all public spaces. He was a lifelong Democrat up until he decided to run for Mayor when 6 other people were vying for the Democratic nomination and only 1 person was running for the Republican nomination. All of sudden he became a Republican.

His predessor Rudy Guilianni was also a Republican. He is pro-choice, pro gun control and pro gay marrage and yet he is considered conservative by NYers who remember his mayorship.

[firecoins]

I would like to point out that Pelosi while third in line is actually 1 heartbeat away from President. I don't think Cheney's heart beats anymore as much as it gets shocked into pumping blood.