The proposed $50,000 Paranormal Finder's Fee

[alfaniner]

The first I'd heard of the proposed $50,000 Paranormal Finder's Fee was in another thread. I looked at the link to the original article and it was dated 1998!

Why is this not a current adjunct to the Challenge? I can imagine thousands of Sylvia supporters badgering her to submit to the Challenge, if they were the ones to be able to claim the Finder's Fee.

People are stupid sometimes, and ignorant sometimes, but they are also greedy.

[William Smith]

...
Why is this not a current adjunct to the Challenge?


Not sure. Perhaps because JREF did not design the Challenge that way.


I can imagine thousands of Sylvia supporters badgering her to submit to the Challenge, if they were the ones to be able to claim the Finder's Fee.
...


I do not seem to understand your point, alfaniner. How would it be decided who will get the Finder's Fee?




Dibs on any Challenge Winner! I call it! Shotgun! :D

("Money, money, money, ...")

[petre]

No, the applicant could designate a finder in the application, it'd be the person who "convinced" them to take it. So it'd go something like this:

"Hi Montel, hey Sylvia! I know you're rich and don't need the money and all, but I'm struggling with three jobs trying to raise four kids by myself. Could you take Randi's challenge and list me as your finder? That $50,000 would buy a lot of diapers."

"Dear, no one can win Randi's challenge. You see..."

"But, I've got a protocol all written up here I'm SURE he'd agree to, and it only depends on exactly what you've claimed to be able to do just now! Please, PLEASE Sylvia, help me with your powers so my children don't go hungry."

[Darat]

I've just sent an email to Randi asking him about the "Finder's Fee".

[Darat]

And Randi has replied and said it still applies. (I also belatedly found a thread in which JimtheBrit had also asked him about it back in 2003.)

[alfaniner]

I guess I wasn't even aware of it. Seems like that would be a good thing to promote more.

[rjh01]

I cannot find it in the FAQ. Maybe it should go there. Is the $50,000 in addition to the $1 million or will the prize be $950,000?

[Darat]

Drop Randi an email with your suggestion and question - it's the only sure way of bringing them to his attention.

[rjh01]

I have sent Randi an e-mail.

[rjh01]

... And received a reply.

[Beady]

... And received a reply.

And?

[rjh01]

And?

I received a reply from James Randi. If James Randi wants to tell the world what it is he can publish it himself. It is easy enough for him to do so.:D

[rjh01]

Imagine a world where a psychic gets no free publicity. Their ads go unanswered because people know what they will get if they ring up. If everyone knew the $1 million challenge was real and no-one was willing to claim it.

Now that is what could happen if people knew about the $50,000. People would know that they were frauds. Would people be willing to do their job (like being a cameraman) if part of it meant helping such frauds?

[Ladewig]

Imagine a world where a psychic gets no free publicity. Their ads go unanswered because people know what they will get if they ring up. If everyone knew the $1 million challenge was real and no-one was willing to claim it.

Now that is what could happen if people knew about the $50,000. People would know that they were frauds. Would people be willing to do their job (like being a cameraman) if part of it meant helping such frauds?


I am not following your reasoning. Right now, people like Sylvia say things like there is no money, the test is rigged, and I tried applying but they were afraid so they turned me away. Why would publicizing the $50,000 finder's fee prevent ADCers and their ilk from continuing to say there is no money, the test is rigged, and I tried applying but they were afraid so they turned me away?

[rjh01]

Imagine you are a cameramen for a show that broadcasts psychic shows. You find out about $50,000 finders fee and think that if it was real it would be easy to get. So you make your enquiries and find yes it is real. You then approach the psychics and they tell you things you know to be wrong. When you point out they are wrong they get rude at you (or some similar reaction). What do you do? Options
a) Keep on doing your job, knowing you are helping frauds.
b) Get another job
c) Tell your colleagues and you all get new jobs. This stops the show.
d) Planet X option.

If enough people do options b or c then no more psychic shows.

Edit: To directly answer Ladewig's question - It would not stop these people from saying these things, however it would stop important people (as above) from believing them.

[Ladewig]

Imagine you are a cameramen for a show that broadcasts psychic shows. You find out about $50,000 finders fee and think that if it was real it would be easy to get. So you make your enquiries and find yes it is real. You then approach the psychics and they tell you things you know to be wrong. When you point out they are wrong they get rude at you (or some similar reaction). What do you do? Options
a) Keep on doing your job, knowing you are helping frauds.
b) Get another job
c) Tell your colleagues and you all get new jobs. This stops the show.
d) Planet X option.

If enough people do options b or c then no more psychic shows.

Edit: To directly answer Ladewig's question - It would not stop these people from saying these things, however it would stop important people (as above) from believing them.

Your question assumes that the camera operators and other technical production folks currently believe in the psychics that they film on a regular basis. I am of the opinion that they already know that these ADCers are frauds, but they want to keep their jobs. How could a camera operator on John Edward's Crossing Over not notice the heavy editting, the rapid fire 20-questions game, and the monotonous repetition of "significant" letters? These folks know what is going on and have signed non-disclosure agreements that include severe monetary penalties.

Publicizing the finder's fee will simply increase the number of letters arriving at the JREF that say things like, "Oh, you simply must test Madam Charlatan. I have asked her to apply and she says the money does not exist, please write to her immediately and convince her that the money exists and that she should take the test."

[Beady]

Imagine you are a cameramen for a show that broadcasts psychic shows.

Isn't that how one psychic got busted? IIRC, a psychic in LA had just been interviewed ("legitimately") for a local news show, Reagan was shot, the interviewer calls her back in to do an "add-on" where she prophecies danger for the Pres, the show is broadcast as if the add-on were part of the original interview, a cameraman blew the whistle.

[Peter Morris]

Of interest :
http://www.proverandiwrong.net/pre_application.aspx

Randi says I have to pay the finders fee out of my own winnings. Did you others get the same response?

My nominee for the finders fee is Princhester a guy that posts here sometimes. In an old argument where I listed various blunders made by Randi, Princhester responded saying that he doesn't believe me, and suggested that I should apply. If he hadn't, I wouldn't have thought of it.

[rjh01]

Isn't that how one psychic got busted? IIRC, a psychic in LA had just been interviewed ("legitimately") for a local news show, Reagan was shot, the interviewer calls her back in to do an "add-on" where she prophecies danger for the Pres, the show is broadcast as if the add-on were part of the original interview, a cameraman blew the whistle.

Let's encourage cameramen to do more of this.:D

[JimTheBrit]

Of interest :
http://www.proverandiwrong.net/pre_application.aspxRandi says I have to pay the finders fee out of my own winnings. Did you others get the same response?

You don't have any winnings. And no, I got the opposite response:

"In addition, not included." - James Randi

[princhester]

My nominee for the finders fee is Princhester a guy that posts here sometimes. In an old argument where I listed various blunders made by Randi, Princhester responded saying that he doesn't believe me, and suggested that I should apply. If he hadn't, I wouldn't have thought of it.



Oh my God, what have I done?

[William Smith]

Princhester, you should only commend yourself for inspiring people.

You are not really responsible for the actions which result from your inspiration. ;) (They say Hitler was inspired by Mozart. Ugh.)

[robinson]

Godwins law invoked.

[JollyRoger]

I assume the allege psychic that was found still has to be (beyond the shadow of a doubt) a willing participant, for the challenge to take place.

[TuftedPuffin]

One problem with a finder's fee: there's no way to show that the psychic didn't find the site first.

Actually, a much better idea would be a liaison's fee. It seems like a lot of applications get refused because people don't follow the rules or don't propose realistic tests, and why should we expect them to? They're mostly loons. On the other hand, why shouldn't someone familiar with the JREF challenge offer to write up a protocol and make sure it gets accepted, for only a small percentage of the prize money? Especially nice if we get paid in advance ;)

[666]

One problem with a finder's fee: there's no way to show that the psychic didn't find the site first.

Actually, a much better idea would be a liaison's fee. It seems like a lot of applications get refused because people don't follow the rules or don't propose realistic tests, and why should we expect them to? They're mostly loons. On the other hand, why shouldn't someone familiar with the JREF challenge offer to write up a protocol and make sure it gets accepted, for only a small percentage of the prize money? Especially nice if we get paid in advance ;)
Something like this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=92092)? :D

[rjh01]

There is nothing stopping an applicant employing somebody now to do this sort of thing. Then pay that person something out of the winnings. Interesting that this is never done.