Maybe Kerry was right about education

[shemp]

(Assist to Fark on the play)

Iraq patrol told Rummy is gone, barely blinks (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/nation/15981318.htm)

ZAGARIT, Iraq — Hashim al-Menti smiled wanly at the Marine sergeant beside him on his couch. The sergeant had appeared in the darkness Wednesday night, knocking on the door of al-Menti's home.

When al-Menti answered, a squad of infantrymen swiftly moved in, making him an involuntary host.

Since then Marines had been on his roof with rifles, watching roads where insurgents often plant bombs.

Al-Menti had passed the time watching television. Now he had news. He spoke in broken English. "Rumsfeld is gone," he told the sergeant, Michael A. McKinnon.

The sergeant went upstairs to tell his Marines, just as he had informed them the day before that the Republican Party had lost control of the House of Representatives and that Congress was in the midst of sweeping change. Al-Menti had told them that, too.

"Rumsfeld's out," he said to five Marines sprawled with rifles on the cold floor.

Lance Cpl. James L. Davis Jr. looked up from his cigarette. "Who's Rumsfeld?" he asked.

"Rumsfeld is the secretary of defense," McKinnon said, answering Davis' question.

Davis simply cursed.

[Aerik]

You know, Kerry's joke could've gone either way. It's wording could just as easily been about troops or about being a stupid president.

But you know, Kerry's not the first person to talk about this. I remember in Fahrenheit 911, Michael Moore did a little bit on how army recruiters will often go to the poorest neighborhoods in communities, picking up all the 'white trash' they can. They always seemed to get the dumbest teenagers with the least hope for a secure future to come and join them with minimal effort. And really, with the age for recruitment having dropped and the fact that during the Bush admin. they decided to let high-school drop-outs (no diploma or GED) join the armed forces, it really does follow that during the last 5 years, if you're a American, dumb male, your chances of getting stuck or killed in Iraq are statistically high.

And I saw a preview recently (last 2 months), though I can't remember what movie I was seeing and what this new documentary coming out is going to be called, about how hard it is for young people who have served their short terms in the army to find jobs and get back on their feet without the army's backing. It shows how many young man can't just go back to their parents' houses because the parents assume that they're ready for the 'real world' now, and they end up being hopeless and often, drunkards because of it. Yeah you can go to the army and get a college education, but most of these recruits end up being fanatic about being soldiers and study things that only apply to soldiers, then go home to find their overly customized educations aren't worth dick for living a life outside of the army which kicked them out on their asses.

furthermore, we keep referring to our troops as heroes by default. That's ********. The oaths soldiers take to uphold the Constitution of the United States, combined with the agreements of the Geneva Convention mean that soldiers are required to disobey and report orders that violate provisions against torture or any other violations of the human rights charter. Yet dozens, if not hundreds of soldiers did nothing of the sort at Abu Ghraib, and still do not do their duty at Gitmo and the many other 'secret' holding facilities. I'm willing to believe, if I see any evidence, that the army/navy/air-force/marines goes out of their way to make sure soldiers are ignorant of their duties under the Geneva convention go actively stand up against torture and other violations of human rights.

A hero the army does not make.

[crucial_fiction]

You know, Kerry's joke could've gone either way. It's wording could just as easily been about troops or about being a stupid president.

But you know, Kerry's not the first person to talk about this. I remember in Fahrenheit 911, Michael Moore did a little bit on how army recruiters will often go to the poorest neighborhoods in communities, picking up all the 'white trash' they can. They always seemed to get the dumbest teenagers with the least hope for a secure future to come and join them with minimal effort. And really, with the age for recruitment having dropped and the fact that during the Bush admin. they decided to let high-school drop-outs (no diploma or GED) join the armed forces, it really does follow that during the last 5 years, if you're a American, dumb male, your chances of getting stuck or killed in Iraq are statistically high.

And I saw a preview recently (last 2 months), though I can't remember what movie I was seeing and what this new documentary coming out is going to be called, about how hard it is for young people who have served their short terms in the army to find jobs and get back on their feet without the army's backing. It shows how many young man can't just go back to their parents' houses because the parents assume that they're ready for the 'real world' now, and they end up being hopeless and often, drunkards because of it. Yeah you can go to the army and get a college education, but most of these recruits end up being fanatic about being soldiers and study things that only apply to soldiers, then go home to find their overly customized educations aren't worth dick for living a life outside of the army which kicked them out on their asses.

furthermore, we keep referring to our troops as heroes by default. That's ********. The oaths soldiers take to uphold the Constitution of the United States, combined with the agreements of the Geneva Convention mean that soldiers are required to disobey and report orders that violate provisions against torture or any other violations of the human rights charter. Yet dozens, if not hundreds of soldiers did nothing of the sort at Abu Ghraib, and still do not do their duty at Gitmo and the many other 'secret' holding facilities. I'm willing to believe, if I see any evidence, that the army/navy/air-force/marines goes out of their way to make sure soldiers are ignorant of their duties under the Geneva convention go actively stand up against torture and other violations of human rights.

A hero the army does not make.

Oh wow, you just sit there in your armchair there General. I find it interesting that, you know, only about 2-5% of the eligible population of the US actually VOLUNTEERS to serve thier country to give the other 95-98% thier liberties they enjoy every day. I, for one, am PROUD and HONORED to serve with these men and women every day.

I agree with you that being a soldier/sailor/marine/airman, does not automaticly a hero make. But you, sitting at home, throwing out baseless accusations about the intelligence and background of those men and women that are willing to do what you WON'T does not noble make.

So if I were you, I wouldn't worry to much about us. You sit there in your home, enjoy your cheeseburger, sleep soundly in your bed knowing that I'm PROUD and HONORED to give my life so that you may continue to have a very nearsighted opinion about those of us in uniform.

-FC1(SW) Loren Grumbly USN Active

[pipelineaudio]

Oh wow, you just sit there in your armchair there General. I find it interesting that, you know, only about 2-5% of the eligible population of the US actually VOLUNTEERS to serve thier country to give the other 95-98% thier liberties they enjoy every day. I, for one, am PROUD and HONORED to serve with these men and women every day.

I agree with you that being a soldier/sailor/marine/airman, does not automaticly a hero make. But you, sitting at home, throwing out baseless accusations about the intelligence and background of those men and women that are willing to do what you WON'T does not noble make.

So if I were you, I wouldn't worry to much about us. You sit there in your home, enjoy your cheeseburger, sleep soundly in your bed knowing that I'm PROUD and HONORED to give my life so that you may continue to have a very nearsighted opinion about those of us in uniform.

-FC1(SW) Loren Grumbly USN Active

Nominated

[fuelair]

Oh wow, you just sit there in your armchair there General. I find it interesting that, you know, only about 2-5% of the eligible population of the US actually VOLUNTEERS to serve thier country to give the other 95-98% thier liberties they enjoy every day. I, for one, am PROUD and HONORED to serve with these men and women every day.

I agree with you that being a soldier/sailor/marine/airman, does not automaticly a hero make. But you, sitting at home, throwing out baseless accusations about the intelligence and background of those men and women that are willing to do what you WON'T does not noble make.

So if I were you, I wouldn't worry to much about us. You sit there in your home, enjoy your cheeseburger, sleep soundly in your bed knowing that I'm PROUD and HONORED to give my life so that you may continue to have a very nearsighted opinion about those of us in uniform.

-FC1(SW) Loren Grumbly USN ActiveWell said, and seperately, Thank You, (ex)Spec5 L.W. (served in RVN some years ago)

[jay gw]

No one should make generalizations about large organizations like militaries. The US recruited the same types of people in World War I and II, when the literacy rate was about 60 or 70 percent, and they didn't have much trouble defeating real armies (Iraqis don't have real armies).

No, I think it's something else. The leadership is what changes over time, not the profile of a soldier. The leadership during the Gulf War was pretty good, but these right now have severe deficiencies. It was Rumsfeld that pursued a plan of his own devising -- against the advice of almost everyone.

[Dorian Gray]

Appears that 'Grumbly' is her name AND her game.

[crucial_fiction]

Appears that 'Grumbly' is her name AND her game.

His and yes that is my name but you're pronouncing it completely wrong...;)

[UserGoogol]

Oh wow, you just sit there in your armchair there General. I find it interesting that, you know, only about 2-5% of the eligible population of the US actually VOLUNTEERS to serve thier country to give the other 95-98% thier liberties they enjoy every day. I, for one, am PROUD and HONORED to serve with these men and women every day.

This has always seemed like a weak argument to me. There are lots of ways to defend liberty, so I don't see why the military is so special. Yes, people in the military have a very serious risk of either being killed, but just because something is dangerous doesn't make it better. (And of course, there can be further debate over the degree to which particular military actions contributes to liberty, but that's a seperate issue.)

[crucial_fiction]

No one should make generalizations about large organizations like militaries. The US recruited the same types of people in World War I and II, when the literacy rate was about 60 or 70 percent, and they didn't have much trouble defeating real armies (Iraqis don't have real armies).

No, I think it's something else. The leadership is what changes over time, not the profile of a soldier. The leadership during the Gulf War was pretty good, but these right now have severe deficiencies. It was Rumsfeld that pursued a plan of his own devising -- against the advice of almost everyone.


I do have to agree with the leadership statement. In this day and age, Generals and Admirals a like, are pretty much going in to any situation with thier hands tied by politicians. It can be good, but in a lot of situations that is a bad thing. When politicians are caring more about what thier own poll numbers are suggestion vice what commanders on the ground are saying there is definately a problem.

Todays political environment absolutely does not afford the flag officers to be the flag officers of old. IE Patton, Nimitz, McArthur where they'd look a congressman/woman and tell them to go screw themselves...

[pipelineaudio]

No, I think it's something else. The leadership is what changes over time, not the profile of a soldier. The leadership during the Gulf War was pretty good, but these right now have severe deficiencies. It was Rumsfeld that pursued a plan of his own devising -- against the advice of almost everyone.

thats funny, Left Wing Religious leader Al Franken thought this current batch of soldiers quite succesful and called them "Clinton's Military" in his book Lies and the lying liars that tell them

[pipelineaudio]

This has always seemed like a weak argument to me. There are lots of ways to defend liberty, so I don't see why the military is so special. Yes, people in the military have a very serious risk of either being killed, but just because something is dangerous doesn't make it better. (And of course, there can be further debate over the degree to which particular military actions contributes to liberty, but that's a seperate issue.)

Yes talking smack on the internet is just as much of a sacrifice as putting your head in someone else's rifle sights



















not

[crucial_fiction]

This has always seemed like a weak argument to me. There are lots of ways to defend liberty, so I don't see why the military is so special. Yes, people in the military have a very serious risk of either being killed, but just because something is dangerous doesn't make it better. (And of course, there can be further debate over the degree to which particular military actions contributes to liberty, but that's a seperate issue.)

So, if the US didnt' have the military it has, what other ways would we defend our liberty?

[UserGoogol]

I'm not saying that a military isn't neccesary for liberty (I'm not entirely sure it is, but let's say it is to stay on topic) but there a lot of others things that are also neccesary for liberty. Most dictatorships have had fairly active militaries, after all. Militaries defend from outside attacks, but there are other factors that go into keeping a society nice and free. To say that the military consists of those brave few who are willing to defend freedom for everyone else seems to overstate its importance.

[crucial_fiction]

I'm not saying that a military isn't neccesary for liberty (I'm not entirely sure it is, but let's say it is to stay on topic) but there a lot of others things that are also neccesary for liberty. Most dictatorships have had fairly active militaries, after all. Militaries defend from outside attacks, but there are other factors that go into keeping a society nice and free.To say that the military consists of those brave few who are willing to defend freedom for everyone else seems to overstate its importance.

Bolding Mine:

Not really. It's not an overstatement it's the truth. If those people are not in the roles they are in, who is going to do it? Everyday Joe with Everyday Jane, living in Anywhere, USA with the mini van and 2.5 kids? Don't think so.

Yes, but the diference between the US and those dictatorships is the US government DOES NOT use it's military to govern it's citizens. Maybe in times of severe crisis, yes, I can give you that one, but it's not 24/7 standard operating procedure.

[UserGoogol]

Oh yes, I'm not equivocating the military of dictatorships with the American military, I'm merely saying that having a military does absolutely nothing to prevent Hitler from waltzing in and taking power, since he wasn't a foreign invader.

[shemp]

You know, Kerry's joke could've gone either way. It's wording could just as easily been about troops or about being a stupid president.

But you know, Kerry's not the first person to talk about this. I remember in Fahrenheit 911, Michael Moore did a little bit on how army recruiters will often go to the poorest neighborhoods in communities, picking up all the 'white trash' they can. They always seemed to get the dumbest teenagers with the least hope for a secure future to come and join them with minimal effort. And really, with the age for recruitment having dropped and the fact that during the Bush admin. they decided to let high-school drop-outs (no diploma or GED) join the armed forces, it really does follow that during the last 5 years, if you're a American, dumb male, your chances of getting stuck or killed in Iraq are statistically high.

And I saw a preview recently (last 2 months), though I can't remember what movie I was seeing and what this new documentary coming out is going to be called, about how hard it is for young people who have served their short terms in the army to find jobs and get back on their feet without the army's backing. It shows how many young man can't just go back to their parents' houses because the parents assume that they're ready for the 'real world' now, and they end up being hopeless and often, drunkards because of it. Yeah you can go to the army and get a college education, but most of these recruits end up being fanatic about being soldiers and study things that only apply to soldiers, then go home to find their overly customized educations aren't worth dick for living a life outside of the army which kicked them out on their asses.

furthermore, we keep referring to our troops as heroes by default. That's ********. The oaths soldiers take to uphold the Constitution of the United States, combined with the agreements of the Geneva Convention mean that soldiers are required to disobey and report orders that violate provisions against torture or any other violations of the human rights charter. Yet dozens, if not hundreds of soldiers did nothing of the sort at Abu Ghraib, and still do not do their duty at Gitmo and the many other 'secret' holding facilities. I'm willing to believe, if I see any evidence, that the army/navy/air-force/marines goes out of their way to make sure soldiers are ignorant of their duties under the Geneva convention go actively stand up against torture and other violations of human rights.

A hero the army does not make.

Excuse me for a moment while I distance myself from your remarks.

My point wasn't that our soldiers are idiots. My point was that we should be doing a better job of education and that it's unfortunate that we send people into battle without knowing much about the government of the country they're fighting for. And that instead of the ignorant partisan politics that followed Kerry's remarks, it would be better if instead our country could have a dialogue about them and maybe come to some constructive conclusions that would improve education in the U.S. One soldier's ignorance does not an army of idiots make. I would be willing to bet that, if you posed the question "Who has been the U.S. Secretary of Defense for the past six years?" to a group of young people in the Army, and a group of young civilians, you would probably find that the number of ignorant people in these groups is about the same. And that number is probably quite high.

[Tony]

Oh wow, you just sit there in your armchair there General. I find it interesting that, you know, only about 2-5% of the eligible population of the US actually VOLUNTEERS to serve thier country to give the other 95-98% thier liberties they enjoy every day. I, for one, am PROUD and HONORED to serve with these men and women every day.

I agree with you that being a soldier/sailor/marine/airman, does not automaticly a hero make. But you, sitting at home, throwing out baseless accusations about the intelligence and background of those men and women that are willing to do what you WON'T does not noble make.

So if I were you, I wouldn't worry to much about us. You sit there in your home, enjoy your cheeseburger, sleep soundly in your bed knowing that I'm PROUD and HONORED to give my life so that you may continue to have a very nearsighted opinion about those of us in uniform.

-FC1(SW) Loren Grumbly USN Active

This is propaganda. The military is rarely tasked with actually protect american freedoms. The military's job is to carry-out government policy.

[Dr Adequate]

Well why is the new recruitment slogan for the US military "ARMY STRONG" eh?

Grammar hard.

[bob_kark]

Well why is the new recruitment slogan for the US military "ARMY STRONG" eh?

Grammar hard.
The Army is equal opportunity. Unfortunately they have to send the mentally challenged to the advertising department.

[Mike B.]

I'm not saying that a military isn't neccesary for liberty (I'm not entirely sure it is, but let's say it is to stay on topic)

I am curious, what is your reason for supposing it isn't?

[UserGoogol]

I am curious, what is your reason for supposing it isn't?

As a skeptic I just try not to be sure of anything unless I have good evidence of it. More specifically though, I suppose that I'm not sure how much of a threat foreign invasions really are, since they don't really happen a lot. That's not to say they aren't a threat, but since everyone has a military it's hard to find data on how effective they really are.

[crucial_fiction]

This is propaganda. The military is rarely tasked with actually protect american freedoms. The military's job is to carry-out government policy.


/yawn

The average american citizen has lost thier balls. I actually wish we would pull out of the policing buisiness but you see, the average american consumer wouldn't want prices on anything going up more than they already have. It's funny how a job so simple as protecting international shipping lanes has such a huge impact on the world economy.

Now if you're really going to argue the point that everything I preach is propaganda, you should really get off your fat butt and look at the bigger picture of just what the US Military helps provide its citizens.

[mrfreeze]

As a skeptic I just try not to be sure of anything unless I have good evidence of it. More specifically though, I suppose that I'm not sure how much of a threat foreign invasions really are, since they don't really happen a lot. That's not to say they aren't a threat, but since everyone has a military it's hard to find data on how effective they really are.

Wouldn't it be a rather decent argument that the reason foreign invasions don't happen a lot (at least on our soil) is that we have a damn good military?

[ghost707]

I'm not saying that a military isn't neccesary for liberty (I'm not entirely sure it is, but let's say it is to stay on topic) but there a lot of others things that are also neccesary for liberty. Most dictatorships have had fairly active militaries, after all. Militaries defend from outside attacks, but there are other factors that go into keeping a society nice and free. To say that the military consists of those brave few who are willing to defend freedom for everyone else seems to overstate its importance.

Do you think the U.S. flag would still be flying over this country if not for the U.S. Armed forces?
Do you think Japan would have surrendered if we had just thrown flowers at them and said "give peace a chance"?

[ghost707]

Oh wow, you just sit there in your armchair there General. I find it interesting that, you know, only about 2-5% of the eligible population of the US actually VOLUNTEERS to serve thier country to give the other 95-98% thier liberties they enjoy every day. I, for one, am PROUD and HONORED to serve with these men and women every day.

I agree with you that being a soldier/sailor/marine/airman, does not automaticly a hero make. But you, sitting at home, throwing out baseless accusations about the intelligence and background of those men and women that are willing to do what you WON'T does not noble make.

So if I were you, I wouldn't worry to much about us. You sit there in your home, enjoy your cheeseburger, sleep soundly in your bed knowing that I'm PROUD and HONORED to give my life so that you may continue to have a very nearsighted opinion about those of us in uniform.

-FC1(SW) Loren Grumbly USN Active


I salute you for your service and excellent post sir!

[ghost707]

I do have to agree with the leadership statement. In this day and age, Generals and Admirals a like, are pretty much going in to any situation with thier hands tied by politicians. It can be good, but in a lot of situations that is a bad thing. When politicians are caring more about what thier own poll numbers are suggestion vice what commanders on the ground are saying there is definately a problem.

Todays political environment absolutely does not afford the flag officers to be the flag officers of old. IE Patton, Nimitz, McArthur where they'd look a congressman/woman and tell them to go screw themselves...

Exactly.
The Military wins the battles and the politicians (and media) lose the war.

[Ziggurat]

This is propaganda.

And Micheal Moore isn't? False statements implying that military recruits are less educated than the average american (when the reverse is actually true) aren't propaganda?

If it would be better if the military also recruited more from the upper echelons of society, why do top-ranked universities fight to keep military recruiters off campus? Shouldn't it be a liberal cause to get MORE recruitment activity in such environments? But it isn't. I am forced to conclude that the whole "the military is full of uneducated morons" meme is only used because it's a way to attack the military, not because there is any substance to it OR because those making the charge are at all interested in elevating the education level of our troops.

[Ziggurat]

Well why is the new recruitment slogan for the US military "ARMY STRONG" eh?

Grammar hard.

English is quite flexible. "Army" can be used not only as a noun, but also as an adjective ("Army surplus") or even an adverb ("Army strong").

"Grammar hard" indeed. "Parsing hard" too, I suppose.

[FreeChile]

Look at the people recruiters are willing to enlist: drug addicted dropouts, mentally challenged people, and plainly ignorant and gullible youngsters. I remember all of the crap they tried to sell me in High School. This story is typical of some of the lies I was told. Fortunately for me, I had other options. There have been at least 4 military activity periods since that time.

So unless you are a nationalistic fool, you best stay out of the service. I say a fool because both nationalism and religion have at times and in places been used to do great harm. The Nazi's come to mind, of course, as do the Crusades.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2626032&page=1

Army Recruiters Accused of Misleading Students to Get Them to Enlist

Nov. 3, 2006 — An ABC News undercover investigation showed Army recruiters telling students that the war in Iraq was over, in an effort to get them to enlist.

[pipelineaudio]

Look at the people recruiters are willing to enlist: drug addicted dropouts,

evidence?

[FreeChile]

evidence?
Didn't you read the story? The underconver investigator passed as a former drug-addict.

[FreeChile]

Yes talking smack on the internet is just as much of a sacrifice as putting your head in someone else's rifle sights

not
And you foolishly find that to be a worthy sacrifice! The soldier doesn't even know who Rumsfeld is. He could probably count his other politicians with the fingers of one hand. What is he defending? It is worse than religion in many cases. What a fool!

[toddjh]

English is quite flexible. "Army" can be used not only as a noun, but also as an adjective ("Army surplus") or even an adverb ("Army strong").

"Grammar hard" indeed. "Parsing hard" too, I suppose.

Just because those two words can go together in a grammatically correct way doesn't mean they're a good choice for a slogan. "Army Strong" is pretty Hulkesque. What's next, "Army Smash?"

[pipelineaudio]

probably something like ford tough, as in built ford tough

that army of one slogan seemed a lot more bizarre to me

[pipelineaudio]

Didn't you read the story? The underconver investigator passed as a former drug-addict.

So a former drug addict is a drug addicted dropout?

[Dr Adequate]

English is quite flexible. "Army" can be used not only as a noun, but also as an adjective ("Army surplus") or even an adverb ("Army strong").

"Grammar hard" indeed. "Parsing hard" too, I suppose. Joke unappreciated.

Sense of humor lacking?

[Darth Rotor]

Look at the people recruiters are willing to enlist: drug addicted dropouts, mentally challenged people, and plainly ignorant and gullible youngsters. I remember all of the crap they tried to sell me in High School. This story is typical of some of the lies I was told. Fortunately for me, I had other options. There have been at least 4 military activity periods since that time.

So unless you are a nationalistic fool, you best stay out of the service. I say a fool because both nationalism and religion have at times and in places been used to do great harm. The Nazi's come to mind, of course, as do the Crusades.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2626032&page=1

In a recent thread on this topic (within the last two weeks0 the figures cited were 98-99% high school grad (I think someone quoted 4-7% GED) General p opulation? 85 %. In an army of citizens, you draw from the pool of citizens available. From those numbers, it looks like a reasonable vetting process is in place.

If you go back 30 years, when some of my high school friends were considering enlisting (I was at Annapolis at the time) the standards weren't as high as they are now. Note: the Army has a limit, 4 % , on the number of CAT IV recruits it admits, which for a while it was able to limit to 0 %.

I suggest you better inform yourself on the facts and demographics involved. What you have done is allowed yourself to be misled by sensationalist, "by exception" reporting.

Reasoning: if all things are going according to the books, there is no story, and you don't see anything in the papers. If something fishy arises, it tends to be an exception. Try not to draw conclusions from exceptions. (Deming would cluck disapprovingly at you.)

You also typically see the Army (or other service) doing something about cock ups in recruiting, or at least hammering recruiters who break the rules. (Yes, recruiters often surf the margins, no question. It's part of the sales business.)

DR

[Darth Rotor]

And you foolishly find that to be a worthy sacrifice! The soldier doesn't even know who Rumsfeld is. He could probably count his other politicians with the fingers of one hand. What is he defending? It is worse than religion in many cases. What a fool!
Defending? In doing his mission, he is carrying out his tiny part of US security policy, however imperfect or wonderful, on a given day.

Troops in a war tend to stay focused on the task at hand.

I find his lack of a response to "Rumsfeld" unlikely to be due to lack of knowledge. More l ikely his mind was elsewhere. Not all privates take as much interest in politics as internet forum rats do. ;)

Why do I say that?

In every unit I have ever been in, there is a picture board near the commander's office that has the chain of command on it from unit CO to higher echelons, to Secretary of Service, Secretary of Defense, to President. In boot camp, or basic training, one of the "fun tasks" assigned is the requirement to recite the chain of command from person to President in correct order. He once had to know that by heart.

Example:

Private Darth
Corporal Kinobi (Fire Team Leader)
Sargeant Luke (Squad Leader)
Lieutenant Leia (Platoon Commander)
Captain Chewbacka (Company Commander)
LTC Solo (Battalion commander)
Colonel Yoda (Regiment Commander)
General Threepio (Division Commander)
General Binks (Corps Commander)
General Duku (Combatant Commander)
The Honorable Artoo Deetoo (Sec Def)
The Honorable President Palpatine (Commander in Chief).

When in combat, a lot of that garrison stuff is left back in garrison. Folks tend to focus on the essential, not the "nice to know." The foot soldiers orders are passed to him via his chain of command. Once it gets past "General so and so" it becomes an exercise in esoterica for daily practical purposes. Maybe he doesn't care on a more personal level, for other reasons. Hard to say.

You don't seem to know dirt from dominoes about soldiering, yet you feel free to comment on it.

What a fool.

DR

[Major Billy]

Oh wow, you just sit there in your armchair there General. I find it interesting that, you know, only about 2-5% of the eligible population of the US actually VOLUNTEERS to serve their country to give the other 95-98% there liberties they enjoy every day.Sir. Basic pay for active duty soldiers in the U.S. Army is $15,282 to $29,581, depending on years of experience. That does not include the $40,000 enlistment bonus now offered. According to GoArmy.com (http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/total_compensation.jsp), if you take in account housing, food, healthcare etc., the average active duty service member received a compensation package worth $99,000.

Our professional armed forces do a great job defending the country. The current military occupation of Iraq is damaging the armed force's ability to do so. John Kerry was right to criticize the civilian leadership's poor stewardship of America's military.

A volunteer is one who performs a service for no monetary compensation.

[Chaos]

*snip*
A volunteer is one who performs a service for no monetary compensation.

Where the hell did you get *that* idea?

A volunteer is someone who volunteers... that is, he or she decides to agree to do something that, prior to actually agreeing, they have no obligation whatsoever to do - unlike, to use military examples, a draftee or someone who is gang-pressed into service.

[crucial_fiction]

Sir. Basic pay for active duty soldiers in the U.S. Army is $15,282 to $29,581, depending on years of experience. That does not include the $40,000 enlistment bonus now offered. According to GoArmy.com (http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/total_compensation.jsp), if you take in account housing, food, healthcare etc., the average active duty service member received a compensation package worth $99,000.

Our professional armed forces do a great job defending the country. The current military occupation of Iraq is damaging the armed force's ability to do so. John Kerry was right to criticize the civilian leadership's poor stewardship of America's military.

A volunteer is one who performs a service for no monetary compensation.

Yes, yearly basic pay. Your point? Now yes, as you progress in rank and in time, you get paid more. Not too hard to understand. I'm pretty sure you've just used the military pay scale that's freely available. However, come on, NO ONE goes by gross income. So when you factor that in...not so hot. But we're not talking about pay. I can go on for days about that, but I'm not.

As for the $40k bonus. You should REALLY, REALLY check your numbers on that one. That $40k bonus is for who? Every one that signs thier name? Actually, that $40k bonus IS heavily taxed, so you're probably looking at a 25-28k bonus. (Nothing to shake a stick at that's a nice chunk of change.) HOWEVER, that is not for every new recruit. That is for specified, extrememly needed MOS (career fields) not everyone.

Medical, dental...yes we all get 'free medical/dental' benefits, I can go on about this to but I'm not.

As for housing. Most services do not allow junior personel (E-4 and below) to reside off post (that is unless you're married). That means some sort of barracks/living on a ship/living in a compartment with 40 of your closest buddies with shared bathroom/showers, etc. Not that great of a deal, I can honestly say I lived onboard a ship for my first 2 years in the fleet. Probably one of the worst times of my life. Not only did I get underway with the ship, I lived there. The only roof over my head was the same roof I worked under, ate under etc...

Take into consideration time in rate from E-1 to E-5 I know for the Navy it's,
E-1 to E-2 9 Months
E-2 to E-3 9 Months
E-3 to E-4 6 Months (Even then E-4 is NOT gauranteed you have to take exams and are compared with your peers and only certain number of slots are allowed for E-4 this can take a while especialy if your MOS is full.)
E-4 to E-5 12 Months

So just at the bare minimum for you to even recieve housing benefits you have to wait 2 years.

So before you just look at about.com or goarmy.com you need to take everything in to consideration and actually look into what it takes to recieve your benefits before you try and point the finger at us and try to say everything is just *given* to anyone that joins up.

[Major Billy]

Yes, yearly basic pay. Your point?My point is that you are paid professionals, and those of us who sit in the 'armchairs' you deride have in fact just finished a long hard day at work, paying for your salaries, and benefits, and ships, and warbirds, etc. Doesn't that give us some say in how our money is spent?

But we're not talking about pay. I can go on for days about that, but I'm not.
Medical, dental...yes we all get 'free medical/dental' benefits, I can go on about this to but I'm not. I hope you 'go on about this' with your congressman and Senators!

[crucial_fiction]

My point is that you are paid professionals, and those of us who sit in the 'armchairs' you deride have in fact just finished a long hard day at work, paying for your salaries, and benefits, and ships, and warbirds, etc. Doesn't that give us some say in how our money is spent?

Paid professionals, I see you decided to not go with the volunteer thing, good for you. Also, last I checked my Leave and Earnings Statement, I pay federal taxes as well. So before you go on about that, again, check your facts.

Now comes the "Well in an eminent danger zone your pay is tax free!" Yeah it is, also it forces a lot of people into a higher bracket and they end up paying it back. So it kind of all evens out.

Yes, the voters and tax payers most certainly should have a say on how thier contribution is spent. However, you should first educate yourself on just how the military pay system works before you decide to hop on the military hate bandwagon. Insinuating that the average E-1 is making close to an adjusted income of $99,000 a year is ABSOLUTELY absurd.

If anything is going to come out of this, I'd hope you won't just take my word for and actually dig deeper into Military Pay issues and see just how much we don't get.


I hope you 'go on about this' with your congressman and Senators!

Oh I do go on and on and on about it ad naseum. I have written my congressman, senator and everyone else inbetween stating my issues, all I ever get back is a hand signed form letter not answering any of my questions/concerns.

[Major Billy]

Paid professionals, I see you decided to not go with the volunteer thing,I most certainly did. A volunteer is "a person who performs a service willingly and without pay" according to my dictionary. When I took a month off at work to volunteer at a camp for blind kids I received no cash for my hard work. (The food was good though)

Last I checked my Leave and Earnings Statement, I pay federal taxes as well. So before you go on about that, again, check your facts.That means you pay my salary as well, since I work in the 'Military Industrial Complex'. I hope you go on about that, too, and check your facts, because apparently too few of you do, otherwise there wouldn't be so much Waste/fraud/abuse in this industry.

You should first educate yourself on just how the military pay system works before you decide to hop on the military hate bandwagon.That's why I read this forum, so that you and others can educate me! As for my being on the 'military hate bandwagon', my father dropped bombs on Nazi Germany. Have you ever been in as much danger?

[crucial_fiction]

I most certainly did. A volunteer is "a person who performs a service willingly and without pay" according to my dictionary. When I took a month off at work to volunteer at a camp for blind kids I received no cash for my hard work. (The food was good though)[QUOTE]

Ok, now we're just getting into semantics.

[QUOTE]That means you pay my salary as well, since I work in the 'Military Industrial Complex'. I hope you go on about that, too, and check your facts, because apparently too few of you do, otherwise there wouldn't be so much Waste/fraud/abuse in this industry.

Yes, then you should also know that, as unfortunate as that is, it would take a movement of monumental proportions to pull of the coup of that magnitude to get every single instance of fraud/waste/abuse eradicated from the industries in which we're so gainfuly employed. Does that make it right? No, of course not. Not much I can do about a filment going out on an RF amplifying device and it costing $40,000 (with a turn in mind you) only for the manufacturer to replace the filament and send it back out for that $40,000 price tag. Hell, I could probably replace the filament myself with parts for a grand total of $15.00.

Gotta love the brother-in-law effect.

That's why I read this forum, so that you and others can educate me! As for my being on the 'military hate bandwagon', my father dropped bombs on Nazi Germany. Have you ever been in as much danger?

Have you? Don't see what this has to do with what we're discussing. I could go on and on about deployments I've been on, things that have happened on those deployments but why have a pissing contest between me and your father? Much respect goes his way from me though, that was a different time fought and forged by men and women more honorable men than myself.

Anyways, I honestly didn't mean any disrespect twords you or anyone else.

The two things I'm passionate about are 1.) My family and 2.) My service and choice of profession. I have a lot of pride in what I do. To see that being knocked, to see the service and sacrifice of others in my line of work being disregarded by people that have no idea of what they're spouting off about, kinda upsets me a little bit. There's very few things that upset me more than John Q. Public calling myself, my shipmates, my brothers and sisters in uniform stupid and uneducated. It's just not true.

Please, don't take that last paragraph as a jab at you, I'm purely speaking generally.

[pipelineaudio]

That's why I read this forum, so that you and others can educate me! As for my being on the 'military hate bandwagon', my father dropped bombs on Nazi Germany. Have you ever been in as much danger?

Hopefully your dad will smack you in the mouth for that

I've seen some lame stuff in here before but that takes the cake

[luchog]

So a former drug addict is a drug addicted dropout?

I think he is probably having a hard time understanding the meaning of the word "former"[b].

Some of the best soldiers I knew when I was in the Guard were [b]fomer drug addicts. In at least one case, the military was what finally got him off the junk.

[luchog]

I most certainly did. A volunteer is "a person who performs a service willingly and without pay" according to my dictionary.

Well, lets' just look that up.

vol‧un‧teer  [vol-uhn-teer] P
–noun
1. a person who voluntarily offers himself or herself for a service or undertaking.
2. a person who performs a service willingly and without pay.
3. Military. a person who enters the service voluntarily rather than through conscription or draft, esp. for special or temporary service rather than as a member of the regular or permanent army.
4. Law.
a. a person whose actions are not founded on any legal obligation so to act.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Pay specific attention to definitions #1, #3, and #4.

So your dictionary only has one of the three most common definitions for "volunteer"? I'd strongly recommend that you get yourself a new dictionary.

[Darth Rotor]

Doesn't that give us some say in how our money is spent?

Not as such.

In this Constitutional Republic, your duly elected Senators and Representatives have the say in that. You are encouraged to forward your opinions on the matter to them. If you get enough like minded folks to join you in making suggestions, you may see a change.

By all means, get that letter writing in gear. America tends to get the Army it is willing to pay for. Do you want one that tends to win, or do you just want it to bleed for you?

DR

[Major Billy]

Hopefully your dad will smack you in the mouth for thatI don't think my Dad would smack me in the mouth for learning from "crucial_fiction" even if he disagreed with everything "crucial_fiction" said.

'pipelineaudio', why do you hate America?

[crucial_fiction]

I don't think my Dad would smack me in the mouth for learning from "crucial_fiction" even if he disagreed with everything "crucial_fiction" said.

'pipelineaudio', why do you hate America?

awww now you're just being a troll...

but whatever, I'll take my $150,000/yr salary and laugh at you...