Patterson film: Credit where credit is due

[desertyeti]

It's most informative that there are many people claiming to know what Daris Swindler believes and what he's said, but the man himself has never formally comitted to anything in print.
At least some of these claimants have also repeatedly informed us that an elk's impression in the mud was made by a large hominid. Riiiiigghhht....http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_10506459d788b7acff.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3477)

[LAL]

Sort of like your anonymous elk experts only different?

BTW, I've asked you several questions, such as where was the woods photo and what are the page numbers? I'm not asking how the elk got out of the impression, I'm asking something simple. Am I going to get any answers?

[Skeptical Greg]

I'd say it was during. (One good nit deserves another.) I'm not finding the post, but Rick said Daris must've watched it a thousand times.

Green has a 1st generation copy and has provided a working copy to Noll. Since Noll doesn't live far from UW (ironically I used to live in Edmonds too and my brother's a professor at the U), I would guess he provided the copy Daris saw.

Green knew Swindler for over 30 years, so it would seem Daris resisted his wicked proponent's ways at least until sometime after 1996.Green has two copies ?

[carcharodon]

It's most informative that there are many people claiming to know what Daris Swindler believes and what he's said, but the man himself has never formally comitted to anything in print.

No...he went further than that. He made a pronouncement via SPOKEN WORDS which he Knew would be seen and heard by a larger audience than any written words of his would be.

How 'bout that?

People 'claiming' to know what he believes and what he said??? Huh, how much more do you need it spelled out? He SAID it with his own lips, tongue and vocal box. Sheesh!

[LAL]

He didn't seem to have any objection to being on camera while examining the original cast, unlike DY, nor to stating his opinion unequivocably on a documentary that would be seen nationally. Since Swindler and Meldrum wrote a paper for publication it would seem he had no problem with his opinions being formally in print.

[kitakaze]

LAL, quick question but do you have any idea how Swindler is doing as of 2007? Is he still having health troubles or has he been in contact with Meldrum, Green, or Noll? Kinda sounds like he wont be able to get much more involved.

[LAL]

LAL, quick question but do you have any idea how Swindler is doing as of 2007? Is he still having health troubles or has he been in contact with Meldrum, Green, or Noll? Kinda sounds like he wont be able to get much more involved.

I don't know. That would be another question to ask.

[RayG]

Ray, I found Rick had answered your direct question, so what's this leaving "immediately"?

From the BFRO webpage: "Dismantling of the camp begins immediately after breakfast."

That was on the day immediately following the day the impression was discovered.

So they discover the impression, cast it, transport it back to camp, fall asleep, wake the next morning, and IMMEDIATELY after breakfast pack up to go home. What part am I missing? (see timeline below)

RAY: "How much effort was spent trying to find supportive evidence in the area surrounding the Skookum cast?(I wasn't on the expedition, and the notes on the website don't really make it clear.)"

RICK: "All day afterwards with all members of the expedition."I wanted to ask Rick when they had found time to do that, but he has a habit, when questions are not to his liking, of getting emotional, taking his toys, and going home.

If you read the Skookum cast summary on the BFRO website here (http://www.bfro.net/news/bodycast/expedition_details.asp), here (http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayseven.htm), and here (http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayeight.htm), you'll see no evidence all members of the expedition did any all day searching in the area surrounding the Skookum cast.

Here's the timeline:

>>Friday, 22 September, 2000 (day of discovery) -

Sometime shortly after 9:00am - Fish, Noll, and Randles find imprint within earshot of the camp. Entire camp is alerted and come to see the imprint.

While Randles and Bambenek collect bits of evidence with tweezers, several other participants check the area for footprints or other impressions -- none were located.

Photos, videos, and measurements are taken by various BFRO people. Sheet of plywood is placed over imprint to preserve it.

Casting material is collected and casting begins.Camcorders are used to document the process. The whole process from discovery to complete casting took some six hours. Everyone is pushed into service helping with various tasks associated with the casting. (can't be looking for further evidence if you're helping with the casting process)

3:00pm or later - Several people lift cast from mud, and it is placed in the back of a truck.

After the cast is secured in the truck, Powell and Terry left the group and head back to Portland.

The group return to camp, and Randles, Fish, and Noll head for Hood River for a car battery. The remaining members remain at camp discussing the discovery. (can't look for evidence if you're sitting in camp)

11:00pm - Randles, Fish, and Noll return to camp. Some fruit and nuts placed at the mud wallow in an attempt to gather further evidence. Everyone retires at a relatively early hour. (can't look for evidence while you're asleep)

Saturday, 23 September, 2000 - the morning following the discovery of the Sasquatch imprint.

No time indicated - Noll and Fish arise and visit the mud wallow to check for fresh impressions. Chewed-open peanut shells were collected, and the two return to camp.

Dismantling of the camp begins immediately after breakfast. Bambenek leaves, followed by Moneymaker and the film crew. Noll and Randles leave at noon, Lee and Lemley soon after. Fish stays behind a short while longer, before departing.<<Considering the amount of time consumed examining, casting, and transporting the discovery, it's hard to believe a concerted effort was spent by all members of the expedition (all day afterwards, no less) trying to find supportive evidence in the area surrounding the Skookum cast. Either Rick is incorrect, or the BFRO webpages are incorrect.

RayG

[Huntster]

From the BFRO webpage: "Dismantling of the camp begins immediately after breakfast."

That was on the day immediately following the day the impression was discovered.

So they discover the impression, cast it, transport it back to camp, fall asleep, wake the next morning, and IMMEDIATELY after breakfast pack up to go home. What part am I missing? (see timeline below)

You missed breakfast.

They didn't.

They were hungry.

Imagine the gall!

[RayG]

Imagine the gall!

Yeah, imagine, you may have just missed a heretofore undiscovered, unclassified, bipedal, hairy, giant ape thingy, and you're so excited, you pack up and go home. Move along, nothing to see here folks... :cool:

RayG

[Huntster]

Yeah, imagine, you may have just missed a heretofore undiscovered, unclassified, bipedal, hairy, giant ape thingy, and you're so excited, you pack up and go home.....

Not quite.

I had breakfast before packing up and hauling that huge cast home.

Why do you keep skipping breakfast?

[RayG]

Not quite.

I had breakfast before packing up and hauling that huge cast home.

Why do you keep skipping breakfast?

Can't forget the most important meal of the day!! Bigfoot, smigfoot, eat and THEN we immediately pack up and go home. Yeah, that's the ticket...

RayG

[Huntster]

Can't forget the most important meal of the day!!

That's right. Especially after working hard for several days beforehand, and on the morning of extraction.

Bigfoot, smigfoot, eat and THEN we immediately pack up and go home. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Gotta eat sometime.

Damn the bad luck. Folks have to eat, sleep, participate in the global economy, and other such crap.

No excuse, but it's reality.

[LAL]

"Boss, I need more time off. A Bigfoot sat in a mudhole near camp, and I need to run off in hot pursuit, if I can determine, 'Which way did he go?' "

Skookum Meadow is still there, and I know of an expedition (not BFRO) to the general area last year. Skamania County has been a hot spot off and on since 1924. What's the hurry?

As to the phrase,"when questions are not to his liking, of getting emotional, taking his toys, and going home", it's been explained he has projects that keep him away from his computer for long periods of time. It was discouraging to see essentially the same phrase from an administrator on BFF when Rick finally got fed up enough to pull his photography and depart, evidently for good this time. Some people didn't seem to know when to stop needling him. As he said, he was available for questions, but he didn't have time for the bickering.

Agree with his POV or not, he was a tremendous resource. BFF will never be the same without him.

The mudhole was dryng and cracking, so the casting was a priority. Getting 550 lbs. of cast back to civilization was a priority. Certainly breakfast was a priority. Trying to pursue an animal that had probably departed the area hours earlier was not. The meadow was chosen because there were signs of activity in the first place.

There could be errors in the timeline and Rick may not have remembered exactly, years later, who left when, but they did put out more bait the same night and scout the area for more sign the next day. It's not like they left right after the imprint was dicovered.

I think this points up the need for full time researchers who could set up in such an area a stay for however long it might take to get confirmation. Would the funding come from National Geographic anytime soon?

[RayG]

"Boss, I need more time off. A Bigfoot sat in a mudhole near camp, and I need to run off in hot pursuit, if I can determine, 'Which way did he go?' "

Ah, but if he had said, "Dr. WXYZ, I believe I have found something which constitutes significant and compelling new evidence of an undiscovered, unclassified, bipedal primate here at Skookum Meadow. If I can be spared, I'd like to stay a few more days to conduct some further serious research and investigation into their presence in this area."

Maybe, just maybe, his supervisor would have been open to the idea.

Skookum Meadow is still there, and I know of an expedition (not BFRO) to the general area last year. Skamania County has been a hot spot off and on since 1924. What's the hurry?I guess if there's no hurry to replicate the initial experiment (properly this time) there's no hurry to obtain further evidence. Is there anywhere where there's a detailed, scientific summation (not just scientific opinions, but actual scientific details*) of the Skookum Cast expedition?

As to the phrase,"when questions are not to his liking, of getting emotional, taking his toys, and going home", it's been explained he has projects that keep him away from his computer for long periods of time.I'm not talking about times when he's away from his computer, I'm talking about times (seemingly often) when he gets temperamental if difficult questions are asked of him.

It was discouraging to see essentially the same phrase from an administrator on BFF when Rick finally got fed up enough to pull his photography and depart, evidently for good this time.Maybe that's why the admin at the BFF worded his remarks in such a way. You have illustrated my point exactly.

Some people didn't seem to know when to stop needling him. As he said, he was available for questions, but he didn't have time for the bickering.Needling him? When did anyone tease or torment him? Was he only available for questions as long as they weren't uncomfortable questions? What bickering do you mean?

Trying to pursue an animal that had probably departed the area hours earlier was not.Evidently obtaining further evidence wasn't a priority either.

There could be errors in the timeline and Rick may not have remembered exactly, years later, who left when, but they did put out more bait the same night and scout the area for more sign the next day.You have nicely illustrated the fact that they did not accurately document things, before, during, or after the discovery.

It's not like they left right after the imprint was dicovered.Nor have I ever claimed they left immediately after the imprint was discovered. This is what I said -- "So they discover the impression, cast it, transport it back to camp, fall asleep, wake the next morning, and IMMEDIATELY after breakfast pack up to go home."

Which part of that is incorrect?

Even when listed in the order of occurence, you get the same result:

1. discover impression
2. cast impression
3. transport it to camp
4. fall asleep
5. eat breakfast next morning
6. immediately pack up camp

That information is readily available to anyone who cares to read the webpages involved.

RayG

* by details I mean before/after photos of the imprint site, measurements, specific times, etc. etc.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by LAL
"Boss, I need more time off. A Bigfoot sat in a mudhole near camp, and I need to run off in hot pursuit, if I can determine, 'Which way did he go?' "

Ah, but if he had said, "Dr. WXYZ, I believe I have found something which constitutes significant and compelling new evidence of an undiscovered, unclassified, bipedal primate here at Skookum Meadow. If I can be spared, I'd like to stay a few more days to conduct some further serious research and investigation into their presence in this area."

Maybe, just maybe, his supervisor would have been open to the idea.

Who among the Skookum crew was working for a "Dr. WXYZ"?

You're under the mistaken illusion that there were scientists at the site.......

Actually, since I work for a native born Alaskan who climbs mountains for weekly recreation, I wouldn't have much trouble (if I had any vacation time left). In fact, he'd probably want to come along, and he'd be an asset out there.

[Skeptical Greg]

Did I miss where someone showed that the baited area was documented ( photos ) before the impression was found ?

How do we know when the impression was made, as opposed to when it was discovered ?

[RayG]

Who among the Skookum crew was working for a "Dr. WXYZ"?

There IS no actual Dr. WXYZ, he's completely fictional. LAL presented an analogy whereby the person requesting time off seemed almost uninterested in pursuing further evidence. I presented another analogy to reflect wording that might have been more effective. It's not difficult to provide similar analogies for all the expedition members, whether they be members of the scientific community or not.

You're under the mistaken illusion that there were scientists at the site.......You mean there weren't? Zoologists don't count? If there were no scientists, how did they determine the imprint was a squatch and not an elk?

Actually, since I work for a native born Alaskan who climbs mountains for weekly recreation, I wouldn't have much trouble (if I had any vacation time left). In fact, he'd probably want to come along, and he'd be an asset out there.I'm betting I would have been able to extend my vacation as well.

RayG

[kitakaze]

I was a little earlier tonight listening to the NPR's Science Friday's interview with Meldrum and among other questions it brought up one stood out. IMO Meldrum is obviously and sincerely making efforts to bring about wider efforts to identify sasquatches. He is also receiving a certain amount of private funding to aid his efforts.

Therefore I can't help but wonder if this amount of funding is not sufficient to identify a key area likely to produce results and fund a small group of paid researchers willing and with time to spare to inhabit the area for an extended period of time even with modest equipment and provisions in an effort to acquire better evidence. I'm know there's a multitude of logistical issues as Huntster as pointed out before but hey, just a thought.

[LAL]

See Giganto: The Real King Kong for a look at what's already been done in the research area.

As far as I know, there's no ongoing funding. He did receive a "gift".

I'm hoping the book sales go well so he can take some time off.

Bought the book yet? ;)

[LAL]

Yeah, imagine, you may have just missed a heretofore undiscovered, unclassified, bipedal, hairy, giant ape thingy, and you're so excited, you pack up and go home. Move along, nothing to see here folks... :cool:

RayG

Didn't they do their high-fiving the night before? With the animal gone and no new sign, what was left to see?

[kitakaze]

See Giganto: The Real King Kong for a look at what's already been done in the research area.

As far as I know, there's no ongoing funding. He did receive a "gift".

I'm hoping the book sales go well so he can take some time off.

Bought the book yet? ;)This gift is from the department of physics chair western university guy (??) to whom he referred in the NPR interview?

I can't help but wonder if with some of the flack he's getting he might not be starting to feel a little 'Krantzy'.

As for his book, I checked the largest retailer here in Tokyo and nada so I'll have to order it online. I do feel I might have similar thoughts on it as Ray, though, given the current state of things.

[LAL]

I think you should just read it rather than letting Ray do your thinking for you. It's a truly interesting read. I'd rate it #1 in my collection, although Murphy had some very pretty color plates.

Check the reviews here:

http://www.amazon.com/Sasquatch-Legend-Science-Jeff-Meldrum/dp/0765312166/sr=1-1/qid=1168124882/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5962225-4906221?ie=UTF8&s=books

Someone else didn't like the lack of footnotes and websites (!). Was Jeff supposed to reference his unpublished data?

But other than that, he's getting five stars.

Not sure if it's the same gift, but there was one of $11,900 from Dr. Richard Stepp/Fidelity Charitable Gift Fund for his research "Sasquatch in the Central Rockies".

[LAL]

LAL presented an analogy whereby the person requesting time off seemed almost uninterested in pursuing further evidence.
RayG

I was trying to illustrate what a request like that might look like. Better to take sick leave.

Boss: "You what?"

Dr. Bambenek is a psychiatrist. Dr. Fish was semi-retired. No one else had the requisite letters after his name. But several of the members were experienced trackers.

Do you really think they would have hauled home 550 lbs. of plaster and mud if it looked like an elk lay?

This was an expedition to test new equipment, and hopefully get some clear prints; it was not a full-fledged scientific investigation. Rick has spent a lot of time in the forest in areas of activity. I somehow don't think he'd lose his cool even if one walked into his camp.

Was it written they couldn't go back another time?

[Skeptical Greg]

Dr. Bambenek is a psychiatrist.

Psychologist ..

Has a cool pair of vibrating pants...


Maybe he even makes lamps for a hobby ... :rolleyes:

[LAL]

Do you have any idea when Swindler and Krantz first became aquainted (at UW)?


Grover was at Washington State, Daris at the University of Washington. I doubt they would have bumped into each other in halls hundreds of miles apart. Grover spent decades trying to interest scientists, including Dr. Tim White (who was at least neutral), so it wouldn't be surprising if he contacted the leading primate anatomist somewhere along the line.

John Green mentioned documentaries from the 70's. Krantz was in most, if not all of them, but I don't have Swindler. There's one on the way I ordered after John discussed it on another list. It doesn't appear Daris is in that one either. I wonder how many didn't make it to DVD.

[William Parcher]

Does Patty Patterson (widow of Roger) donate some of the money she gets from the PGF copyright towards the (any) search for Bigfoot? It would be so cool if she gives money that is derived from her late husband's film of a Bigfoot to the effort(s) to confirm this as being a real undescribed wild primate. Roger would have wanted this, right? Is she handing some cash over to the searchers who carry on after her husband was taken by cancer? I wonder if she loses any sleep wondering if her husband will leave the proper legacy as being the one man that unquestionably filmed a real Bigfoot way back in 1967.

[LAL]

The film was tied up in legal problems for years. She evidently got burned more than once and I doubt she made much money off it. She's apparently dealing with some serious issues currently (I don't know what they are). She was interviewed for a new book by Dave Murphy, due out last year, but I don't know the status.

[Huntster]

Quote:
You're under the mistaken illusion that there were scientists at the site.......

You mean there weren't? Zoologists don't count? If there were no scientists, how did they determine the imprint was a squatch and not an elk?

You’re right. There was a scientist on site! (http://www.bfro.net/news/bodycast/expedition_details.asp)

I am impressed!

Participants (by profession):

A zoologist, a Psychiatrist, an electronics engineer, a carpenter, two healthcare managers, a tooling metrologist, a science teacher (is this a scientist?), a landscape architect, and a “consultant.”

[kitakaze]

Grover was at Washington State, Daris at the University of Washington. I doubt they would have bumped into each other in halls hundreds of miles apart.Woops. I knew I couldn't have been reading that right. That's what you (or should I really start writing I?) get for staying up way too late searching through links.

[carcharodon]

Does Patty Patterson (widow of Roger) donate some of the money she gets from the PGF copyright towards the (any) search for Bigfoot? It would be so cool if she gives money that is derived from her late husband's film of a Bigfoot to the effort(s) to confirm this as being a real undescribed wild primate.

How much do you actually think she is raking in then? Do you have an estimate as to how much you assume she makes off the footage????

[kitakaze]

I think you should just read it rather than letting Ray do your thinking for you. It's a truly interesting read. I'd rate it #1 in my collection, although Murphy had some very pretty color plates.That wasn't meant to be abrasive was it?;)

As I've already said I'm very interested to read Meldrum's book if not filled with the same degree and manner of anticipation as you. That would be very nice if Ray would do my thinking for me (I could use the break) but I'm sure he has is own preoccupations. Nevertheless, as we're both skeptical of the existence of BF and I doubt that there's anything between the covers that would stand up to peer review as persuasive evidence I think surmising that after reading it he and I might have similar opinions is natural.

One thing I'm confident will not change is my feeling that Meldrum has, and I very much want to avoid an implication of dishonesty, not fully accounted for the length and depth of his inclination on the subject. It at least constitutes some measure of bias that he isn't reluctant to point out in his detractors. It is at least clear that he had more than a passing interest at the time of his graduation from high school and I found this at variance with his comments on the matter in the early part of his NPR interview.

Regardless, I would rather just read the book and let his observations and articulations on the evidence that he has selected to be presented to stand on their own merits.

Thank you for the link to the amazon reviews, I read all of them and they were quit helpful. This separate review I found on The Trades was the most interesting to me personally:

http://www.the-trades.com/article.php?id=4922

Not sure if it's the same gift, but there was one of $11,900 from Dr. Richard Stepp/Fidelity Charitable Gift Fund for his research "Sasquatch in the Central Rockies".I'm also not sure if that's the one he referred to in the NPR interview but in any event that ain't a lotta dough.

[LAL]

Woops. I knew I couldn't have been reading that right. That's what you (or should I really start writing I?) get for staying up way too late searching through links.

I stay up too late too. I found a link that said Daris was at Washington State, so sometimes it's the link's faul.

[LAL]

That wasn't meant to be abrasive was it?;)

No, it wasn't. I reworded it several times.

I'm disappointed Ray got sidetracked on the number of references and doesn't seem interested in the content. Greg dismissed it all as "anecdotes" before he was out of the introduction. I'm not sure either would be able to find anything good about the book if they were paid to review it.

I had a similar bias reading Daegling (I threw the book halfway across the room at least once), but the second time around I have to admit it's a pretty good read. It would have been better if he'd personally examined some evidence and I see no substantiation fo his conclusions.


One thing I'm confident will not change is my feeling that Meldrum has, and I very much want to avoid an implication of dishonesty, not fully accounted for the length and depth of his inclination on the subject. It at least constitutes some measure of bias that he isn't reluctant to point out in his detractors. It is at least clear that he had more than a passing interest at the time of his graduation from high school and I found this at variance with his comments on the matter in the early part of his NPR interview.


If you think he's biased, read Daegling and Long. ;)

He says right at the beginning he'd grown up with the folk tales and mythology, but accepted the fur suit-wooden feet explanations until he saw tracks in situ. The full story, told in the book, is quite interesting, especially when they found more tracks.

The interview is here, for those who haven't heard it:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6469070

He doesn't seem too devastated by that news story.


Regardless, I would rather just read the book and let his observations and articulations on the evidence that he has selected to be presented to stand on their own merits.

Good idea. Don't let me influence you either.

[LAL]

The photo of the three-toed track isn't in any of my books. I've ordered a copy from the library in hopes the older version has the plate. It' been years since I read it and I really don't remember the photo. There is a different photo in my copy, but it's not close up and doesn't look much like the one posted.

The Pennsylvania sightings were around the time of a UFO flap and we have glowing-eyed (in three colors), fanged creatures getting out of spaceships.

These are the kinds of reports Green wished didn't exist, but he didnt leave them (nor Paluxy- I e-mailed him about that) out of the new edition. Where's this sweeping things under the rug?

He mentions an alleged three-toed print in California. I guess if it really was a print, they're not all in the east; my information was wrong there. The Pennsylvania print he mentions was different from Fouke, having fat toes. My first thought when I saw The Legend of Boggy Creek, finally, was that the kid saw marks from a deer scraping.

Nova did a show years ago about electrical charges from deep within the earth stimulating the cerebral cortex and producing visions that are interpreted as UFOs or St. Joseph or some other phenomenon, according to expectations. UFO sightings seem to be in areas with a lot of underlying granite, that gives off charges when compressed. As one who lives in the Appalachians, I can say, yep, there's a lot of granite in these hills.

Green includes the strange tracks found by Thomlinson that had four toes, but he didn't think they were a match for SAs prints.

Now, can someone help me out with references on six toes?

Are there any such casts in Jeff's collection of nearly 200?

Incorrect numbers of toes was a dead giveaway in a fairly recent Pennsylvania hoax (beside a reservoir) that evidently involved much beer.

[kitakaze]

He says right at the beginning he'd grown up with the folk tales and mythology, but accepted the fur suit-wooden feet explanations until he saw tracks in situ. The full story, told in the book, is quite interesting, especially when they found more tracks.
It's not just a matter of growing up with the folk tales or mythology in his schema as it has been for many growing up in NA. This from the Dec 10th story on him in the LA Times:Since boyhood

Meldrum's interest in the topic dates to an itinerant childhood in the prime Bigfoot-sighting terrain of Utah, Oregon, Idaho and eastern Washington, where his father was a produce merchandiser with the Albertson's supermarket chain.

"I spent a lot of time in the woods," Meldrum recalls. He was fascinated by animals of all kinds.

When he was 13, his parents gave him a book called "Abominable Snowmen: Legend Come to Life," which he keeps in his office. His interest in the creature — and in the mystery and romance of the search for it — grew so profound that one friend wrote in his 1976 Idaho high school yearbook: "Good luck hunting for Bigfoot."I also found figures in print about his private funding ranging from the figure you listed to $30,000 to totally $80,000 so that needs to be settled.

[LAL]

It's not just a matter of growing up with the folk tales or mythology in his schema as it has been for many growing up in NA. This from the Dec 10th story on him in the LA Times:I also found figures in print about his private funding ranging from the figure you listed to $30,000 to totally $80,000 so that needs to be settled.

I didn't grow up with the folk tales, and my parents gave me a copy of The Bible As History when I was about that age. So what?

I prefer Jeff's own words and writings to what reporters say he said or their interpretations of what he's said. He was misquoted in the recent story that made 185 papers as well as during the Wallace stories.

Even if he cut his teeth on Bigfoot casts, that doesn't mean his conclusions are influenced by some childhood fixation on the phenomenon. He's a scientist. He got tenure because his methodology is so good. Krantz was denied.

There was a mention of funding in Giganto: The Real King Kong, which was made prior to the publication of the newsletter. Supposedly there was some matching funding from somewhere, but I've only been able to verify the one. I've read three differerent figures, so far, all around $11,000.

Where did you get $80,000? Even if that's correct, it's over several years, at least from the first time I could find a notice of application. It's still not much. I don't think$80,000 wouldn't have kept my brother's team going for a month.

[kitakaze]

Where did you get $80,000? Even if that's correct, it's over several years, at least from the first time I could find a notice of application. It's still not much. $80,000 wouldn't have kept my brother's team going for a month, I don't think.From that same LA Times story I cited. The CNN and Forbes articles were a typical example of hack journalism, BTW. I wasn't able to link it quickly as I got to it through Bigfoot Encounters. Agreed though, it's not much but it ain't nothing either.

[LAL]

From that same LA Times story I cited. The CNN and Forbes articles were a typical example of hack journalism, BTW. I wasn't able to link it quickly as I got to it through Bigfoot Encounters. Agreed though, it's not much but it ain't nothing either.

Most of the money he's received was spent on equipment, apparently.

Do you have the link to Bigfoot Encounters?

Peter Byrne and even Roger Patterson were able to get some funding. I believe Jeff's the first to get any kind of academic funding.

[William Parcher]

Meldrum funding:

$23,000 from Fidelity in 2004, was matched by ISU = $46,000.
$11,900 from Fidelity in 2006, was matched by ISU = $23,800.
$46,000 + $23,800 = $69,800.

I think there may have been more. You have to methodically go through every issue of the ISU newsletter to find the figures.

I hope he is putting it to good use towards confirming Bigfoot.

[kitakaze]

I didn't grow up with the folk tales, and my parents gave me a copy of The Bible As History when I was about that age. So what?

I prefer Jeff's own words and writings to what reporters say he said or their interpretations of of what he's said. He was misquoted in the recent story that made 185 papers as well as during the Wallace stories.

Even if he cut his teeth on Bigfoot casts, that doesn't mean his conclusions are influenced by some childhood fixation on the phenomenon. He's a scientist. He got tenure because his methodology is so good. Krantz was denied.I should add that in the LA Times piece it's not as if Meldrum was being secretive on the origins of his interest. Seems like he may have been more relaxed and engaging and not being cautiously strategic about what he was sharing with the reporter.

I get the vibe that Meldrum's first interest in BF had nothing to do with the monster aspect but like myself stemmed from an interest in wildlife, evolution, but more specifically human evolution and the implied relations thereof. I'm not implying that he chose his path in life due to his young fascination with BF but neither are they unrelated.

Scientists are not immune to ego and I can easily imagine him eager at the challenge of applying his current expertise to a subject that fascinated him so in his youth albeit without immunity to a certain selectiveness that from the beginning of that endeavour betrayed complete objectivity.

I agree that his methodology is good but does not the fact that he rests much of his arguments that BF can be shown to exist even considering only the track evidence represent that he's not being totally objective?

[kitakaze]

Most of the money he's received was spent on equipment, apparently.

Do you have the link to Bigfoot Encounters?

Peter Byrne and even Roger Patterson were able to get some funding. I believe Jeff's the first to get any kind of academic funding.Here you go:

http://bigfootencounters.com/

This site is wacky for making links. It's several pieces down in the 'What's New?' section under the title 'Professor puts stamp of legend of bigfoot'.

[LAL]

Meldrum funding:

$23,000 from Fidelity in 2004, was matched by ISU = $46,000.
$11,900 from Fidelity in 2006, was matched by ISU = $23,800.
$46,000 + $23,800 = $69,800.

I think there may have been more. You have to methodically go through every issue of the ISU newsletter to find the figures.

I hope he is putting it to good use towards confirming Bigfoot.

Thanks for the information.

Seems he's come a long way from a "single, unfunded weekend".

[kitakaze]

I didn't grow up with the folk tales, and my parents gave me a copy of The Bible As History when I was about that age. So what?I responded before you put in the bible edit. When I was a teenager I thought 'The Celestine Prophecy' was an excellent book. So what? :D

[LAL]

I agree that his methodology is good but does not the fact that he rests much of his arguments that BF can be shown to exist even considering only the track evidence represent that he's not being totally objective?


His specialty is primate foot anatomy, but that's not all he considers. He personally investigated the Redwoods film and exposed the Snow Walker hoax.

From this e-mail interview with Jon Olsen:

"JO: Do you examine other kinds of evidence?

JM: Yes, as an anatomist and student of primate locomotion, I examine films and photos that allege to depict Sasquatch. In collaboration with other researchers I also examine dermatoglyphics, hair, scat, DNA."


Also:

"JM: If sufficient funds and sustained effort are never directed at the question, it may languish unresolved indefinitely. Jane Goodall didn't catch her first glimpse of chimps for months, and they were a gregarious boisterous lot contained essentially in one valley. Yet, I am criticized by some for not collecting conclusive evidence of a relatively solitary reclusive far-ranging primate in a vast habitat on a given unfunded weekend excursion. Go figure."

http://www.normalpeoplelikeyou.com/article_assets/sasquatch.htm

[kitakaze]

Meldrum funding:

$23,000 from Fidelity in 2004, was matched by ISU = $46,000.
$11,900 from Fidelity in 2006, was matched by ISU = $23,800.
$46,000 + $23,800 = $69,800.

I think there may have been more. You have to methodically go through every issue of the ISU newsletter to find the figures.

I hope he is putting it to good use towards confirming Bigfoot.Thank you for shedding some light there, William. BTW, I thought 'Greg' the harmonica guy on the NPR interview was a little suspect too. 9-12 feet, eh? He comments on this 'austere' creature's texture of hair yet that's the best height estimate he could give?

[LAL]

I responded before you put in the bible edit. When I was a teenager I thought 'The Celestine Prophecy' was an excellent book. So what? :D

My parents were atheists.

[LAL]

Thank you for shedding some light there, William. BTW, I thought 'Greg' the harmonica guy on the NPR interview was a little suspect too. 9-12 feet, eh? He comments on this 'austere' creature's texture of hair yet that's the best height estimate he could give?

Some people are lousy at estimating height and things can grow in memory. It's better if there's a branch or knot in a tree to get some measurements from and, better yet, prints. Foot length can give a good estimate.

Did it sound like Meldrum was searching for words, or perhaps suppressing a chuckle?

I once positively IDd a guy. They said I was right on on the height and weight. I was never called for the lineup, and was told he had an airtight alibi. So, was I wrong on the height and weight if it was the wrong guy?

[William Parcher]

He personally investigated the Redwoods film and exposed the Snow Walker hoax.

Jeff once thought the Snow Walker was authentic, right? Did he "expose" it as a hoax after he was told it was a hoax, or did he arrive at that conclusion on his own (after first believing)?

Kitakaze wrote: BTW, I thought 'Greg' the harmonica guy on the NPR interview was a little suspect too. 9-12 feet, eh? He comments on this 'austere' creature's texture of hair yet that's the best height estimate he could give?

I pointed out Greg in another thread on Meldrum's interview. What struck me was the guy's sincerity, articulation and conviction. Take a look at something around the house or work that is 9-12 feet off the ground. Now imagine that height for a hairy walking ape. Words really cannot describe what it would be like to see such a thing - with no barrier between yourself and it. :jaw-dropp

[kitakaze]

His specialty is primate foot anatomy, but that's not all he considers.But it's all he can comment on with authority.He personally investigated the Redwoods film and exposed the Snow Walker hoax.IMO, that's good work but nothing to write home about. Obviously human dimensions and unnatural gait + scenery and vegetation clearly not matching reported Himalayan location + dubious source wishing to remain anonymous is hardly super sleuth material.

[William Parcher]

Were we ever shown the Snow Walker suit? Would the subject's IM index suggest "non-human"? Can a guy's head fit inside that head?

[LAL]

Jeff once thought the Snow Walker was authentic, right? Did he "expose" it as a hoax after he was told it was a hoax, or did he arrive at that conclusion on his own (after first believing)?

It was a professionally done hoax. They used a kind of snowshoe foot for the tracks, so the measurements for the figure came out to 9'. He became suspicious while interviewing the "witnesses".


I pointed out Greg in another thread on Meldrum's interview. What struck me was the guy's sincerity, articulation and conviction. Take a look at something around the house or work that is 9-12 feet off the ground. Now imagine that height for a hairy walking ape. Words really cannot describe what it would be like to see such a thing - with no barrier between yourself and it. :jaw-dropp

Yeah, I used to sit in my living room looking into the forest wondering how much of the sliding door might be filled by an 8' animal looking in, should one decide to check us out. (I also used the house for a Supersaurus comparison. I do have other interests.)

One thing about the NW forests, they're huge and it's hard to get scale. A 4' error may seem excessive, but without something of known size around that could be easy to do.

[LAL]

Were we ever shown the Snow Walker suit? Would the subject's IM index suggest "non-human"? Can a guy's head fit inside that head?

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/films/snowwalker.htm

[kitakaze]

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/films/snowwalker.htmI don't see how that link addresses William's questions even if they were mostly in jest.

[kitakaze]

It was a professionally done hoax. They used a kind of snowshoe foot for the tracks, so the measurements for the figure came out to 9'.Where did you get that info from?

[LAL]

But it's all he can comment on with authority.
I think that's about all he does comment on with authority. He consults other experts, but he teaches anatomy so I think he might be qualified to speak there.

More from ISU's site:

http://www2.isu.edu/headlines/?p=88

http://www.isu.edu/bios/Professors_Staff/meldrum_j.shtml


IMO, that's good work but nothing to write home about. Obviously human dimensions and unnatural gait + scenery and vegetation clearly not matching reported Himalayan location + dubious source wishing to remain anonymous is hardly super sleuth material.

I don't think the source was all that anonymous if Jeff was able to interview them (a Swiss couple?) and the dimensions did not seem human due to the clever addition of snowshoe feet to give oversized prints.

Found this little tidbit while searching for the details:

The Snow Walker VideoIn 1996, 2 hikers in the mountains of Nepal took an amazing video of an ape like creature walking upright along the slopes.

http://www.xenophilia.com/zb/zb0027/yeti1.jpghttp://www.xenophilia.com/zb/zb0027/snowwalker.jpg Could this be the evidence that the world has been waiting for? Above are 2 stills from that video.

http://www.xenophilia.com/zb0027.htm#10

The one on the left is the Shipton print. Geez.

[LAL]

Where did you get that info from?

Coleman's Yahoo Group.

[LAL]

I don't see how that link addresses William's questions even if they were mostly in jest.

I don't have the suit on hand. Sorry.

[kitakaze]

Coleman's Yahoo Group.Newman! err... Coleman!:D

[kitakaze]

The Shipton print is always fun to look at. I wonder what Meldrum thought of that.

[LAL]

Newman! err... Coleman!:D

Careful. Coleman didn't post the info. I have permission to repost, but I'll have to do a search.

[LAL]

The Shipton print is always fun to look at. I wonder what Meldrum thought of that.

I'm wondering if it was really in the film. Almost any researcher would know it at a glance. The film was used later in World's Greatest Hoaxes. Belgians? I finally found my link and it's dead.

[LAL]

Here you go:

http://bigfootencounters.com/

This site is wacky for making links. It's several pieces down in the 'What's New?' section under the title 'Professor puts stamp of legend of bigfoot'.

Oh, that story. It's a rehash of the one that called him a "hulking, Sasquatch-like figure". I started a Letters to the Editor, but couldn't find a way to send it through the site.

I had a letter to the LA Times published years ago. They got my gender wrong. I guess that means it was good in those sexist times.

[kitakaze]

Oh, that story. It's a rehash of the one that called him a "hulking, Sasquatch-like figure".For a 'rehash' it's quite a bit more informative not to mention personally interviewed. They even refrained from any sasquatch comparisons.

[LAL]

See the discussion here:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17016&hl=Times

[LAL]

For a 'rehash' it's quite a bit more informative not to mention personally interviewed. They even refrained from any sasquatch comparisons.

I imagine The Boston Globe and The Washington Post did too, but the links are dead already. This is the original and CNN's version with photo added:

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/isu2.htm

[kitakaze]

I'm working on drawing human-shaped head outlines inside the side profile outline of Patty's head.

We'll see what that shows.So, um, any progress on this earth-shattering contribution to the field of bigfootery? Greg's been working on a similar project (but with brocoli), maybe you could compare notes.

[William Parcher]

How much do you actually think she is raking in then? Do you have an estimate as to how much you assume she makes off the footage????


Happy Patterson-Gimlin Day (October 20th).

I've read that Patricia Patterson charges $10,000 for the use of the PGF.Whenever you see the PGF on a program she has been paid money.

What are you doing these days, carcharodon/Lyndon? Did you know that the new BFF has amnesty for those who were previously banned like yourself? ;)

[Blackdog]

He's already there posting under a different name but using the same style.