My kid's being bullied

[John Bentley]

I have a young child in private school. I recently found out that another child in the school has been bullying him for no apparent reason, and my kid has come home with bruises on his arms, legs, and once just above his groin where this other kid has punched and kicked him.

My kid has been attacked twice more by this other kid, even after I have had conferences with the teacher and the principal of the school.

I have recently found out that this other kid has violently attacked at least 3 other children on a regular basis at this school.

I have taught my kid how to defend himself until he can get away and notify an adult, and he has done so twice now. We're talking young children -- age 6 and 7.

I've also essentially solved the problem temporarily for my child by teaching him how to watch his back, how to avoid ambushes in the bathroom, and how to avoid eye contact with this psychopath. And yet I am unsatisfied with this solution in the long term, because I think it is unacceptable that my kid can't go where he wants, go to the bathroom, talk to whomever he wants without fear of getting mugged. Particulary when this is a private school and they aren't required by the state to keep the psycho as a student.

What else can I do in this situation, teachers?

[alfaniner]

An article I saved (I'm a martial arts teacher)

Bully Defense on the Bus

Tip 1: Sit near the front of the bus! Sitting close to the driver will make bullies and teasers think twice before acting for fear of getting caught.

Tip 2: Don't stay silent! Unless you feel that another kid will physically attack you if you speak up, remaining completely silent while kids are harassing you will only encourage them to keep doing it. Try one of the following:

-Directly ask them to stop.

-Distract them by starting a conversation that might interest them.

Tip 3: Sit with friends! There is strength in numbers. You are less likely to be singled out if you are sitting with others.

Bully Defense at Lunch

Tip 1: Move your seat! Ask a friend to move with you. If you are assigned to a seat, ask an adult if you can change it. If he or she says no, tell your parents so they can talk to the person in charge to get your seat changed.

Tip 2: Sit close to an adult! Bullies don't bully and teasers don't tease around adults â?" so sit as close to one as you can! If an adult who is supervising doesn't recognize the problem, please tell a teacher you trust or your parents.

Tip 3: Be the first one to enter the lunchroom and the first one to leave! Don't waste time in the halls when going to lunch or when getting back to class after lunch. Wasting time only gives bullies more opportunity to bother you.

Bully Defense in the Halls

Tip 1: Always be aware of who is ahead of you! If you see a bully or teaser ahead of you, DON'T pass the person and give him or her the opportunity to bother you by noticing that you are there! Take your time and slow down a little so they get further ahead of you.

Tip 2: Always be aware of who is behind you! Don't allow a bully or teaser to stay directly behind you in the hall. He or she will most likely follow you until you have reached a part of the school with no teachers around in order to harass you without fear of being caught. If you notice a bully or teaser behind you, stop and let him or her pass. Stop in to say hello to a favorite teacher or go to the front office or the nurse's office to say hello.

Tip 3: Go a different way when possible! If your school has a first and second floor you may have a choice of taking more than one way to class. Choose the safest way even if the safest one is the longest one. It is worth the longer walk to prevent giving the bully or teaser an opportunity to bother you.

Bully Defense Online

Tip 1: Don't respond to the message! Although it is very tempting to tell a bully off, it is not a good idea. This may only get the bully angry and cause more problems for you. The bully also can print out your message and use it against you by showing it to teachers or to the principal to say you were the one who started the problem and not the other way around.

Tip 2: Get out of the chat room! If someone is making fun of you or is threatening you in a chat room, leave that room so the person doesn't have the opportunity to continue. Take down the screen name and report the situation to your online provider.

Tip 3: Print out any threatening or harassing messages! You can't prove it is happening if you do not print out the evidence. Show the printed message to your parents. It is against the law to threaten or harass someone online.

Tip 4: Report inappropriate messages to your par ents and your online provider! Most online services will suspend individuals who violate online rules. Let the offender get what is coming and report the violation to get him or her off the net.

Bully Defense in General

Tip 1: Don't exchange insults with bullies! This will only make the bully try harder to make you look bad in front of others.

Tip 2: Don't accept getting teased to fit in with the popular group! Some kids tolerate teasing to try to be accepted by a popular group of kids. If you are hoping they will stop teasing you as soon as they get to know you, it most likely will not happen.

Tip 3: Immediately report the bullying or harassment! Many popular kids are very concerned about remaining popular, not only with their classmates but also with their teachers. Mention what is happening to a teacher or counselor you trust. A student talking to an adult in this situation may be enough to stop the offending behavior.

Bully Defense Using Come-Back Lines

The key to using come-back lines is to avoid the temptation to trade name calling or personal insults with the bully or teaser. A great come-back line is brief and to the point, and leaves the bully or teaser feeling that he or she did not get to you! Don't forget to always look the person in the eye and keep cool - anger is a sign that what the bully is doing is working.

Try some of the following: however always remember that if another student is threatening physical violence toward you, don't say anything to him or her- do your best to get away from the situation and to where a teacher or other adult is located.

-"Why do you waste your time saying that stuff to me?"

-"Those things are ridiculous, but whatever."

-"I don't do this to you. You should really think about what kind of person you are acting like."

-"I'm not sure why you keep saying these things to me, but it really doesn't matter."

-"Okay. Finished?"

-"That's funny, but now I'm bored."

-"Here we go again, tell me when you are done."

--From Member Solutions.

[Garrette]

Good tips from alfaniner but they don't solve the problem. If you're in the U.S., most school districts have begun taking action against bullying.

Do not let up with your principal and the teacher. If you child has injuries as you describe, take him to school with you to show the teacher/principal. Take photos. Get documentation at the doctor's if you can.

If the principal doesn't take IMMEDIATE action, go to the school Superintendent and demand a meeting and action. If that fails, go to the school board and to your state Senator/Representative simultaneously.

My son had bullying problems, too (though not as severe as you are describing). We forced action and it worked.

[John Bentley]

Good tips from alfaniner but they don't solve the problem. If you're in the U.S., most school districts have begun taking action against bullying.

Do not let up with your principal and the teacher. If you child has injuries as you describe, take him to school with you to show the teacher/principal. Take photos. Get documentation at the doctor's if you can.

We have done this. I took pictures of the bruises, and we had a doctor's record of the kick to the groin, all of which I took with me to the principal. Additionally, my kid was in the room for part of the conference, and he showed other bruises he had received at the hands and feet of the other kid. It seemed to me that the principal was unsurprised, and I later found out that the kid has attacked other kids in the school.

If the principal doesn't take IMMEDIATE action, go to the school Superintendent and demand a meeting and action. If that fails, go to the school board and to your state Senator/Representative simultaneously.

My son had bullying problems, too (though not as severe as you are describing). We forced action and it worked.

The principal has taken action such as restricting access of this kid to people he seems to dislike. For instance, he is not allowed to go on the playground at the same time as my kid. However, when the principal started saying things like "Well, we have been trying to find out what triggers this behavior in [this kid]", I started asking around, and it seems this kid acts out violently with other kids in the school. We're not talking about teasing, name calling, etc. We're talking about violently attacking other children with puches and kicks, with little or no provocation. The kid is truly a disturbed little wacko.

I seem to have halted his attacks on my kid by teaching my kid essentially the list given by alphaniner. However, as I said before, why the heck should my kid, and at least 3 other kids I know about, be forced to act this way? Why can't they get rid of the wacko, instead? The kid is a ticking time bomb, so why should my kid be forced to tiptoe around so this nut won't explode?

[CFLarsen]

A kid comes home with injuries?

That's not "bullying". That's a violent crime against a small child. Call the cops. Press charges. Make it plain that you will not accept this.

[Garrette]

We have done this. I took pictures of the bruises, and we had a doctor's record of the kick to the groin, all of which I took with me to the principal. Additionally, my kid was in the room for part of the conference, and he showed other bruises he had received at the hands and feet of the other kid. It seemed to me that the principal was unsurprised, and I later found out that the kid has attacked other kids in the school.



The principal has taken action such as restricting access of this kid to people he seems to dislike. For instance, he is not allowed to go on the playground at the same time as my kid. However, when the principal started saying things like "Well, we have been trying to find out what triggers this behavior in [this kid]", I started asking around, and it seems this kid acts out violently with other kids in the school. We're not talking about teasing, name calling, etc. We're talking about violently attacking other children with puches and kicks, with little or no provocation. The kid is truly a disturbed little wacko.

I seem to have halted his attacks on my kid by teaching my kid essentially the list given by alphaniner. However, as I said before, why the heck should my kid, and at least 3 other kids I know about, be forced to act this way? Why can't they get rid of the wacko, instead? The kid is a ticking time bomb, so why should my kid be forced to tiptoe around so this nut won't explode?Then continue to the School Board and Senator/Rep.

Alternately, Claus' suggestion may be called for, but I doubt much if anything will be done along those lines.

[Piscivore]

That was my first thought too: "Press Charges"

[CFLarsen]

Then continue to the School Board and Senator/Rep.

Alternately, Claus' suggestion may be called for, but I doubt much if anything will be done along those lines.

Why not? If anything, it is drawing a line in the sand. This is simply not acceptable.

We are not talking about the usual more-or-less rough bantering among school kids. That's...kids. We are talking about bodily physical harm to small children. Regardless of who is doing it. Or, since it is some other kid, all the more reason to kill it before it grows.

No, no, no. No.

[LawnOven]

Man that's F'ed up.

I'm sorry.

Press charges, or get a good lawyer and sue the school; sounds like you have some good evidence and a bully with a previous track record.

[negativ]

When I was in elementary school and jr. high, I lived in a miserable little Texas town of about 6000 called Perryton. I was bullied savagely, primarily because (believe it or not) I had no interest in football. I was pushed down stairs, had rocks thrown at me during recess, I was spit on, my books torn up, knocked down and all sorts of other things.

Nobody in authority at school did a damned thing about it.

I remember the school counselor telling me very condescendingly that the group of kids who usually picked on me were "nice kids", and that I must have done something to provoke them. Her advice was "just try to avoid them."

When my books were torn up, my 5th grade teacher handled the situation by telling me that it was "my responsibility to take care of my things".

My parents were no help either, because they had the idea that I had to learn how to deal with people on my own. Thanks, folks.

I could go on for ages, but in the interest of staying on-topic, I'd like to say it is absolutely crucial that you see to it that the bullying is stopped, and just as importantly, that the bullies are punished. Your kid needs to see that there is justice.

I put up with it for years before finally moving away. I learned (and never really un-learned) to hate school, distrust teachers, principals, and counselors, and I really don't know what would have happened if my situation had continued into my teens. This was in the early 80s before Columbine was a meme, but when that attack happened -- even though I hadn't seen the inside of a school for years -- there was a tiny little part of me that thought, "wow, finally! Score one for my team."

[Dark Jaguar]

Why not? If anything, it is drawing a line in the sand. This is simply not acceptable.

We are not talking about the usual more-or-less rough bantering among school kids. That's...kids. We are talking about bodily physical harm to small children. Regardless of who is doing it. Or, since it is some other kid, all the more reason to kill it before it grows.

No, no, no. No.

I agree, but I want to make it clear that the "just kids bantering" you refer to, well it doesn't need to be physical to be horrible and unacceptable abuse. If two kids are clearly having a good time and just ragging on each other, that's one thing. If it's clear that a kid or a bunch of kids are ganging up on someone who is obviously being targetted and is very depressed or just is "taking it", there's a major problem. Suicide can result from this behavior and I call that abuse too. Both should be stopped and neither is excusable. That said, with my experience with both, I'll say that when it becomes violent it does become more immediatly dangerous.

[qayak]

I am with the "call the police and press charges" group but I also suggest that you inform the school administration that you will also be filing a civil suit against them for failing to protecting your child and provide them with a safe learning environment.

Nothing gets things done faster than a threat to finances.

I am an advocate of fighting back and it is what I did all through school but I recognize that not everyone is physically or mentally able to do this.

[Lisa Simpson]

I'm in favor of pressing charges as well, since the school administration won't do anything. The bully really needs to learn there are consequences for his actions.

[WildCat]

You've got some good rational advice from the others, I'd be more inclined to introduce the bully's father to Mr. Fist.

Yes, my dad was a bad example...:boxedin:

[Ben Tilly]

I have a young child in private school. I recently found out that another child in the school has been bullying him for no apparent reason, and my kid has come home with bruises on his arms, legs, and once just above his groin where this other kid has punched and kicked him.

...

For the record I suffered bullying myself, and I worry a lot about what will happen to my 2 year old son when he gets older. One thing that I want to do with him is get him martial arts training. Make him a less easy target. My sister put her children in judo and said that it helped a lot. It isn't an immediate solution, but it may be worth looking into long term. Because this will arise again.

Another random suggestion is to talk directly to the parents of the bully. I don't hold out much hope that it will solve the problem, but it is worth giving it a try. Knowing that they'll find out may cause him to pick a different target. (Note, many bullies learn the behaviour from their parents disciplinary techniques. This has unpredictable consequences. For instance they might think that what he is going isn't a big deal, or you might have an episode where the bully beats up your kid in retaliation for his having "tattled"...)

Another random idea is to give your son a noisemaker. For instance a loud whistle to use when he gets in trouble. This may draw enough attention to deter the bully.

Other than that, what everyone else said. (Though I am less fond of lawyers than a lot of people here seem to be.)

Cheers,
Ben

[alfaniner]

I just copied the article as a set of initial guidelines. I have some differing opinions myself.

The first thing I teach the kids is "every situation is different." I can not give them one all-encompassing technique (either verbal or physical) that will handle every situtation. What I can do is explore several different scenarios and work on how to handle those.

negativ, the world is a very different place than when you went to school. Now there are resources that any internet-accessible kid can find out about.

[enjoytheview]

I'm all for the pressing charges idea, however i have a question..
I know in Australian law, a person under the age of 10 years old cannot be charged, regardless of how vicious the assault or other form of crime is (i think murder may be an exception, but not sure). Is American law the same in this sense?
Assuming that its fine in the States to prosecute this kid, i'd say go and do it. If not, then the more time you can spend in the principals office demanding that this kid is expelled, the better. Took my neighbour 6 trips to the principals office (excessive yes, but it had to be done) plus heaps and heaps of phone calls to get a kid expelled that was doing a very similar thing to her child. I guess Principals get sick of hearing the same voice popping up on their voicemail, and seeing the same person in their office and decide to finally take some action.

[RSLancastr]

Alfaniner, the article you quote is fairly decent, EXCEPT for the really bad advice in this section:

Bully Defense Using Come-Back Lines

[snip]

-"Why do you waste your time saying that stuff to me?"

-"Those things are ridiculous, but whatever."

-"I don't do this to you. You should really think about what kind of person you are acting like."

-"I'm not sure why you keep saying these things to me, but it really doesn't matter."

-"Okay. Finished?"

-"That's funny, but now I'm bored."

-"Here we go again, tell me when you are done."I doubt any of these would do any good, but the one I bolded is just asking the bully (and anyone else in earshot) to pummel you.

I hate advice like that. Dr. Laura tells kids who are being bullind "Go up to the leader of the bullies and say something like "Your friends are bothering me. I was wondering what you could do to prevent it."

I dislike this woman in general, but when she gives this kind of advice to kids, I just want to scream.

John B: Tell the administrators that if they do not deal with this immediately, the police will be brouht in, and civil suits filed against them.

[clarsct]

Call the police to document the incident.

Document document document. Then document some more.

You've already got a head start, there. Call the superintendent and let him know you are more than willing to file charges and lawsuits.

Wildcat, your dad and mine would've gotten along, I think. Only once did I come home with a bruise from a bully. The old man went up to the principal's office and told him the next time >I< came home with a bruise, HE(the principal) would go home with a bruise. As he had the man by the throat up against a wall at the time, it was a pretty reasonable thing to think dad wasn't bluffing.(He wasn't.)

But, I am not recommending such practice. I would recommend what CFL is saying. (You can mark the day on the calendar!!!) Get some folks invovled. Superintendant, school board members, Senate/Rep folks. Whomever needs to be involved.

I know a guy who was refused school lunch when he was little because he couldn't pay. His mother screamed bloody murder. And kept screaming bloody murder. Now it is law in our state that a student be provided a hot lunch, regardless of his ability to pay, though they will still pester the parents for the back owed money. One parent can change things.

[Skeptic Ginger]

A kid comes home with injuries?

That's not "bullying". That's a violent crime against a small child. Call the cops. Press charges. Make it plain that you will not accept this.
I agree. My son had his tooth knocked out by another kid in 1st grade. The school made the parents of the kid bring him to school to apologize to me and my son. That put an end to it, but if it hadn't there's no way I would just tell my son way to avoid the kid. The parents would be meeting us in court.

I think an attempt to resolve it with the other parents is reasonable. But it isn't OK to just have the school act as middle person unless you are confident meeting the other parents would not be productive.

Sometimes bullying is just one of those things but when it leaves bruises or bite marks, it should be taken seriously. If it continues, it is indeed a crime of assault.

[Skeptic Ginger]

You've got some good rational advice from the others, I'd be more inclined to introduce the bully's father to Mr. Fist.

Yes, my dad was a bad example...:boxedin:There's nothing worse in a case like this than having the parents set an example of physical altercation themselves. What is it with adults that think physical violence resolves a dispute? Boggles my mind.

About suing, that's fine if you actually do it but I imagine school employees have heard that claim, "I'm going to sue", enough times they likely consider it a fake threat. This isn't a civil case unless the injured child can't return to school or if there are medical bills or something really serious like that. The assaulting child may need the intervention of the courts if the parents are incapable. Even just a visit from a police officer may have a positive effect. Otherwise, suing isn't really much of a solution.

[ahoneycutt]

Even just a visit from a police officer may have a positive effect.

Absolutely it will. A group of bullies used to patrol my neighborhood and school. Every night my job was to try and find the way on to the bus and home from the bus stop without some type of altercation.

Eventually they cornered me and my friend who was much smaller, a couple years younger, at the time. I told him to get home, he ran. I stayed and started walking to my house, they gave chase. I stopped out front of my house figuring they would buzz off. They didn't, they cornered me. There is a definite moment when you know things are going to get uglier. A fight broke out and I believe there were four of them. I was able to get in my house without taking much damage.

I told my parents. I'm not sure exactly what all the details may be but I do know this: the police paid a visit to all of the kids with parents present. The next time I saw any of them I'd been out of high school (the whole bullying thing was elementary through junior high) for a couple years and I actually got an apology.

My vote is for getting the police involved not only for the documentation aspect, which is very important, but also for motivating the bully to rethink his or her behavior as a result of possible consequences.

[patchbunny]

Bit of a quick read through the thread, but why do all the responses seem to skip having a talk with the parents of the bullying child? Ultimately they're responsible for their child's behavior. If my child continually came home with bruises, I'd be suing more than just the school.

[Jeff Wagg]

As a victim of bullying up through high school, I believe strong measures must be taken. Now that I have my own kids, I've attended the "anti-bullying" classes at school, and they're just pathetic. They talk about taking care of the bully's feelings far more than taking care of the victim. Bullys supposedly act out of fear, blah blah blah.

In my experience, they simply enjoy the power they feel. Bullies are just as often people with high self esteem.

Bullying has lifelong consequences. I don't think it should be taken lightly.

[Math Maniac]

Schools and teachers operate--especially when the students are as young 6 or 7--in loco parentis, and, as such, are fully responsible for the health and well being of their students while in their care during the official school day. When school administrators and teachers fail to act appropriately they are likely opening themselves up to legal action for not protecting the child when they knowingly fail to provide a safe environment.

As others have already suggested, retain a lawyer who specializes in school law because school law is a rather specialized area of law and incorrect advice would not only cost you money but wasted time (and possibly humiliation) as well.

Alternatively, maybe you should consider another school. It may be a great school academically or otherwise, but the bottom line is that your child is currently not safe and that, in my opinion, should trump anything else for the time being.

[alfaniner]

Alfaniner, the article you quote is fairly decent, EXCEPT for the really bad advice in this section:

I doubt any of these would do any good, but the one I bolded is just asking the bully (and anyone else in earshot) to pummel you.
...


Right, I do plan to edit that article to make it better.

[Lisa Simpson]

Bit of a quick read through the thread, but why do all the responses seem to skip having a talk with the parents of the bullying child? Ultimately they're responsible for their child's behavior. If my child continually came home with bruises, I'd be suing more than just the school.

I'm not a teacher, but I've worked in the school system for the last few years, and my experience is that most parents these days are incapable of believing their children can misbehave.

[fuelair]

As a victim of bullying up through high school, I believe strong measures must be taken. Now that I have my own kids, I've attended the "anti-bullying" classes at school, and they're just pathetic. They talk about taking care of the bully's feelings far more than taking care of the victim. Bullys supposedly act out of fear, blah blah blah.

In my experience, they simply enjoy the power they feel. Bullies are just as often people with high self esteem.

Bullying has lifelong consequences. I don't think it should be taken lightly.

My problem with anything that includes the bullies feelings is that that is a load of feces (or why the thief steals, murderer kills, etc.) in that it concerns something that is completely unimportant to the person harmed - and should be completely unimportant to same. Worrying about the criminals wittle feewings is for his jailers or psychiatrist(s). His victims' concern is that he be punished thoroughly and completely for his deeds. I have no interest in the problems of bullies, thieves, gang members , terrorists. I did not torment them, I have no responsibility for their financial situation, I do not care if they feel marginalized - I did not marginalize them, I have no responsibility for the religious silliness-or political silliness they want to kill for - I did not propagandise them about it. But if they act on it, I have a responsibility and if opportunity arises I will take that opportunity to act on that responsibility. The rule is always, protect the victim.

[The Atheist]

This is sickening, and very, very common.

I've been through this saga from every direction, even from the bullying side, thanks to one of my kids getting in with the wrong crowd when he was 7 or 8. That's one reason why, particularly given the ages involved that I think you should find out whether the parents are aware of his behaviour. They simply may not be. Nobody knew that my boy was bullying a kid until the parents told us. That boy and my boy have been firm friends ever since and my young bloke's been an anti-bully.

I've had another kid who was bullied recently at age 4 at the local kindergarten. The teachers there either would not or could not sort the problem out to my satisfaction so he left that kindy for another.

Ok, to your OP. You're sending your kid to a private school and you're putting up with this? That's the bit I cannot believe. This kid obviously has some severe problems and if the school's solution you've given was the best they can do, then I'd be seriously asking whether or not I still wanted to pay them to teach my kid. They seem to be doing a piss-poor job all round.

I'd be looking for a new school immediately.

Yes, the police... etc.... lawyers.... yes.... superintendent....

These are little kids. Cops have no interest. Lawyers obviously will as there's money in it, but really, this is entirely the school's problem. Find a better one and move on. The current situation has your son bearing the brunt of not being bullied and he'll still be living in fear, fix it fast.

[clarsct]

I'm not a teacher, but I've worked in the school system for the last few years, and my experience is that most parents these days are incapable of believing their children can misbehave.

You are correct. We have made a society in which any problem a kid has is directly due to irresponsible parenting. Kids don't make poor decisions, the parent is to blame, everytime, all the time. As such, we have made any criticism of the child a direct criticism of the parent. In this world where everything you could ever need is at your fingertips, we have created the Cult of the Ego. You crank up human greed until it eclipses most major religion, then attach it to the ultra-connected world where you can be the star of your own blog, and feed your ego until it goes from being a monkey on your back to a gorilla that dominates your life. When every criticism cuts to the bone because your bloated ego is bruised by the slightest touch, then you have to live in denial. It becomes too painful not to.

And, ironically, in the end you DO becomes a bad parent because you cannot see that your children aren't your own personal little suburb, but a person in their own right who makes good and bad decisions. You rob them of negative consequence, and thus, they have no consequences at all for their actions. When you are given the power to do whatever you want to whomever you want, the idea of a conscience goes directly out the window. Your moral compass is skewed.

And these people are doing this to their kids on purpose because they cannot stand to have their egos bruised by a grain of truth.

It is sad. It is also a reason I would talk to the school as opposed to the parent. It is also why the school doesn't want to talk to the parent. They know what kind of hassles they would have to go through to tip-toe around the minefield of self-satisfaction most people have built to defend their inflated sense of self worth. It is easier to have your child bear the brunt.

It is sad. Pathetic.

[athon]

I think a lot of good advice has been given so far. I'll back some of it up and add my own.

1) Firstly, as some have said, document the case. It provides a history of the actions and gives you something to rely on in future cases. Provide a date and time if possible, incident that occured, what the consequences were and who was notified about the incident.

2) Organise a personal meeting with the child's teacher, head of year and if possible a member of school administration (or US equivalent). Don't do it by phone - nail them down with a meeting. Bring your account of what has happened, and discuss the events with a clear indication that you want some sort of changes to occur. Be supportive of any suggestions that they make as well - while there are always those cases of 'my school did nothing', they are in the minority. Most districts and boroughs in Australia and the UK (my understanding of most US state systems is pretty minor) have rather strong anti bullying policies.

3) Discuss the issue with your son. Reacting in kind with violence or 'counter bullying' (on that person, or on others) is not to be tolerated. There is a line between reactionary violence and defence - make sure your son knows that. Pro-active prevention is also good; things like making sure they sit in areas where bullying might be noticed by others, hence can be verified. Most of all, allow your son to discuss the issue with their point of view.

4) Look out for any behaviours which you suspect might inflame or provoke the situation, being as least biased as you can manage. This is indeed a difficult one, as people always see bullying as purely unidirectional. There are often (although not always) social factors at play where a person being bullied enages in the process in ways that are not helpful to reaching reconciliation. Being blind to these does not help your child. Of course, I am not insinuating this is the case here, just that it is occasionally an issue.

Good luck. Bullying is not something that should just be tolerated as 'playground tiffs'. It requires mediation, and all parties involved to be open to making changes.

Athon

[Lisa Simpson]

In post #4, John says they have already had a meeting with the principal. If he hasn't helped at this point, he probably won't. I really think police/lawyers are going to have to be the next step.

[clarsct]

Superintendent is the next step.

[Oroborus]

Kick the crap out of him and his parents.

[Lisa Simpson]

Superintendent is the next step.

Do private schools have a superintendent?

[clarsct]

Erm.

Hmmmmmmmm.


Um.


I dunno.:o

Don't they have a headmaster or a dean? Usually the principal handles day to day affairs, then there is some form of administrator, that's the guy I'm going for. There ought to be someone over the principal.

If not, then lawyers it is. *sigh*

[Lisa Simpson]

I dunno either. My kids are all edumacated by the public school system.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Bit of a quick read through the thread, but why do all the responses seem to skip having a talk with the parents of the bullying child? Ultimately they're responsible for their child's behavior. If my child continually came home with bruises, I'd be suing more than just the school.It wasn't skipped, you missed it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not a teacher, but I've worked in the school system for the last few years, and my experience is that most parents these days are incapable of believing their children can misbehave.This implies homogeneous parental behavior and motivation I don't think is accurate.

Some parents indeed think their little jewels are perfect. But there are also simply incompetent parents as well as parents who themselves are bullies or who fail the see bullying as a bad thing. And there are oblivious parents who believe you when the behavior is reported, but wouldn't notice otherwise.

[Skeptic Ginger]

As far as blaming the parent, regardless of degree of guilt, the home dynamic is generally the issue with young children. After middle school, the results of earlier incidents or family dynamics are hard to change.

My neighbors had a bully on their hands. The dad especially was just an incompetent parent. I watched him. He said, "no", over and over but never (and I mean never) followed through to stop the behavior or deliver consequences. I saw it coming. Sure enough, the kid got into drugs, arrested several times in high school and was just on the wrong track.

But I'm not sure whose fault it is parents are incompetent. We rarely teach any parenting skills at all in high school. Where are parents supposed to learn if their own parents set bad examples?

The parents divorced but they sent their son into a wilderness get straight program. The kid was literally in the wilderness with this group for what seemed like close to a year. He's back now and back in school. We'll see how it goes but I think they not only did the best thing for this kid, they also took the severe steps which were needed.

[CaptainManacles]

I don't know how much luck you'll get calling the cops, other people seem to have had good experiences, but in my case I've found cops to be, more then anything, marginalizing. Every cop I've ever had to deal with for any situation more serious than a traffic violation has had a "protect that status quo of 75 years ago", racist, sexist, boys will be boys, "well what were you wearin" attitude. Granted, all the traffic cops I've ever had to deal with were really nice, but I don't suppose they'd help much in this situation.

Sense this is a private school, sueing might work better then you think. If this were a public school, you'd have more of a ladder to climb, but sense it's private, I think you'll have an easier time coming up with damages, damages that they can't simply pass on to the taxpayer. Definately if he had a doctor visit, but even without that, what kind of an education is he getting if he has to watch his back going to the bathroom? Did you pay any tuition? Think of the expenses of feeding and clothing a kid, assuming in the meanwhile he's suppose to be on his way to becoming a responsible adult. He's basically lost a full year here if not more.

If the parents of a 7 year old girl can sue for sexual harrassment and win large amounts of money over a kiss on the cheek, I'd imagine your school should be a little conserned about recorded systematic physical abuse. It's probably a bit of a stretch, but the idea isn't to hit some ridiculous $100,000 jackpot. The idea is that they'll worry that the judge will probably find that logic somewhat reasonable, will sympathize with the kid, you'll win $1000, and then every single kid who has ever been bullied by anyone at that school is going to sue, and every bullying incident in the future is going to cost them a grand.

[gnome]

Bit of a quick read through the thread, but why do all the responses seem to skip having a talk with the parents of the bullying child? Ultimately they're responsible for their child's behavior. If my child continually came home with bruises, I'd be suing more than just the school.

I agree with speaking to the child's parents. However, I can understand the reluctance, because many parents respond angrily and aggressively to any suggestion that their child has done wrong, or that they have made poor decisions raising them. I'm sure the incidence is much higher among parents whose children are actually bullies. However, just on general principle I still believe in trying.

Another suggestion to add to the ones described... especially if lawyers and police will be involved: make sure the child does not take any action that undermines the case. I'm not talking about making excuses for the bully. But, for example, you don't want the child showing up at the bully's house. Or breaking his routine to deliberately confront the bully. While he has the right not to be bullied, any case would be seriously undermined if he's not taking reasonable steps to avoid trouble. Do not let him be painted as an aggressor or opportunist himself. I'm thinking of situations akin to a woman filing a restraining order against her husband but then continuing to initiate personal contact anyway.

[LibraryLady]

This is assault; the police need to be involved. Also, I suggest consulting a lawyer. At least you should have a police report to document what's happening.

I react strongly to this. As I mentioned in another thread, I was a victim of bullying and the effects of this can echo throughout a child's life. Make sure your child knows for absolute certain how seriously you're taking this. Even if you don't accomplish anything, your son will know he has a support system--it took a long time for my parents to figure this out, but once they did, I felt much better.

Self defense is great. Prevention is much better.

[pipelineaudio]

I have a young child in private school. I recently found out that another child in the school has been bullying him for no apparent reason, and my kid has come home with bruises on his arms, legs, and once just above his groin where this other kid has punched and kicked him.

My kid has been attacked twice more by this other kid, even after I have had conferences with the teacher and the principal of the school.

I have recently found out that this other kid has violently attacked at least 3 other children on a regular basis at this school.

I have taught my kid how to defend himself until he can get away and notify an adult, and he has done so twice now. We're talking young children -- age 6 and 7.

I've also essentially solved the problem temporarily for my child by teaching him how to watch his back, how to avoid ambushes in the bathroom, and how to avoid eye contact with this psychopath. And yet I am unsatisfied with this solution in the long term, because I think it is unacceptable that my kid can't go where he wants, go to the bathroom, talk to whomever he wants without fear of getting mugged. Particulary when this is a private school and they aren't required by the state to keep the psycho as a student.

What else can I do in this situation, teachers?

Youve handled this a LOT more rationally and realistically than most parents out there. Youve also done it in a way that shows your kid that HE has some say.

Most parents make a magical sky cop and force the kid to believe it will offer protection (teachers, laws, policies, etc), and then let the kid be trounced, AND dependant on socialist bullcrap for life

You are to be commended

[pipelineaudio]

Now that I have my own kids, I've attended the "anti-bullying" classes at school, and they're just pathetic. They talk about taking care of the bully's feelings far more than taking care of the victim. Bullys supposedly act out of fear, blah blah blah.


This is exactly why going thru the proper channels rarely helps. And if there is a racial element to this ( or more likely a percieved one) give up all hope of administrative solutions.

The bully obviously has not eaten enough collared greens

The bully's great great grandfather was mistreated by people of the same race as the bullied's great great grandfather

The bully cant cope with his low place on the economic ladder

The bully cant cope with his high place on the economic ladder

The amount of excuses libberwhacks will come up with for evil behaviour will blow your mind

[gnome]

Youve handled this a LOT more rationally and realistically than most parents out there. Youve also done it in a way that shows your kid that HE has some say.

Most parents make a magical sky cop and force the kid to believe it will offer protection (teachers, laws, policies, etc), and then let the kid be trounced, AND dependant on socialist bullcrap for life

You are to be commended

I'd say there's a need for both self-reliance and enforcement. Self-reliance will help the child survive the bullying. It will not remove this cancer among the school's students and help prevent harm to others. That can only be done by the appropriate authorities, and so it is rational to appeal to them.

[Kaylee]

Do private schools have a superintendent?



I dunno.:o

Don't they have a headmaster or a dean? Usually the principal handles day to day affairs, then there is some form of administrator, that's the guy I'm going for. There ought to be someone over the principal.

If not, then lawyers it is. *sigh*

I don't know either, but I suspect that a private school would have a board of directors or something equivalent.

Lots of good advice on this thread. I would just add one thing ... why not meet with the parents of the other bullied children also?

This may give you a fuller picture. But even if it doesn't, it would probably be easier to deal with a difficult situation as a group than individually. I think approaching the bully's parents, the school's administration and if necc. the police and judicial system as a group would make them take this more seriously also.

Good luck!

[athon]

This is exactly why going thru the proper channels rarely helps. And if there is a racial element to this ( or more likely a percieved one) give up all hope of administrative solutions.

The bully obviously has not eaten enough collared greens

The bully's great great grandfather was mistreated by people of the same race as the bullied's great great grandfather

The bully cant cope with his low place on the economic ladder

The bully cant cope with his high place on the economic ladder

The amount of excuses libberwhacks will come up with for evil behaviour will blow your mind

Unfortunately this is a field where a middle ground has to be explored. Indeed, pitying the bully and offering no recourse is ineffective. However, to play this as simply a game of 'bully = innate evil, victim = innate good' ignores all of the social interactions surrounding the situation, and does nothing to help prevent the problem from either occuring or from escalating.

I've taught in several 'last resort' comprehensive / state schools, where kids who have been expelled from every other district school find themselves. This palming off occurs when kids committ behaviours which just don't get addressed, of which bullying is the most frequent.

Where do we send the bullies, then, when they reoffend?

Sure, most people here would quite happily say 'well, they go into jail next then'. As if that is a satisfactory response. In fact, the behaviour of bullies does need to be assessed in relation to how they operate in a social group if they are to ever have a hope of learning proper social skills.

There are a lot of myths and dismissive expectations out there when it comes to bullying.

Myth) Bullies have low self esteem.

Actually, they often have high self esteem. However, many instigatators of bullying incidents have poor ways of dealing with failure and criticism. They will shut out negotiations they don't like to hear.

Myth) Bullies are themselves bullied

Well, this is a partial truth. While in the school environment they are often only the instigator of bullying, in other environments - typically the home - they are the underdog. Bullying is a learned social skill. Here they have learned how to ignore constant negative interactions, criticisms, etc., and to retain self esteem they apply what they've learned on other individuals.

Myth) Punishment is the way to fix the problem

Most bullies have learned how to deal with negative consequences so they don't get affected by them. Detention, coporal punishment, yelling, lines... keep 'em coming, because they won't leave a single mark. Shame can work on occasion, yet it varies on the bully's background and their ability to empathise.

Myth) Expulsion is the way to fix the problem

Expulsion moves the problem on. The next school or institution takes up the problem until a pool of problems collects in a couple of schools. Constantly taking away the support of familiarity from a bully only further escalates the problem, as their form of coping is again to seek out those who they can influence through bullying in order to create some order for themselves.

Sure, it moves it away from your kid, but then it moves it onto somebody else's. Put them into jail? Ok, again, thanks for having the attitude of 'if I can't see it, it doesn't exist'.

Bullying is an issue for the bully as well.

Myth) The victim plays no role in the situation

Well, I'm again opening a can of worms here. Please note, I am not saying the victim is to blame. They do not ask for the attention and do not instigate it willingly. However, their behaviours are interactive with the bully's, and the victim's coping mechanisms are often ignored in light of punishing the bully, often to the point that victims rarely get counselling over the matter.

Why do some kids get bullied and others don't? Because some kids suit the role better - they are easily intimidated, find it difficult to deal with initial taunts, have weak social networks... These aren't justified reasons for being bullied, but they are common factors in victims.

Helping them to cope is part of the story, too.



Schools do need to acknowledge their responsibilities to bullying, which includes better community networking, better communications with families, improved 'safe zones' at school, better edcuation on the matter amongst students, and importantly better ways of dealing with bullies that aren't purely punitive.

Athon

[a_unique_person]

That may all be true, but the bullying has to be stopped. If it was adults, the bully would be charged with committing a crime. All the other issues are consequent on that. Bullying can ruin lives, and even lead to suicide.

[pipelineaudio]

Myth) Punishment is the way to fix the problem

Most bullies have learned how to deal with negative consequences so they don't get affected by them. Detention, coporal punishment, yelling, lines... keep 'em coming, because they won't leave a single mark. Shame can work on occasion, yet it varies on the bully's background and their ability to empathise.


We have certainly seen in the last PC years that NOT punishing sure isnt the way to solve the problem. I hope there is a solution somewhere, but Im betting that not punishing is at the root of a LOT of problems, not just for kids either

[athon]

Not taking any action leads to failure to solve the problem. Punishment is often a simple solution that makes people feel satisfied that they've reacted, yet it does not address causes, let alone lead to avoidance of the behaviours in the future.

I often hear how nothing is being done, and I don't know whether to be shocked, ashamed or skeptical. In my experience of teaching - and this is in different schools under different circumstances - bullying has always been dealt with. Perhaps not always in the most efficient ways (it takes good resources to deal with it in a non-punitive, efficient manner), yet I have been involved with quite a few bullying cases which are always taken very seriously.

I don't know whether the cases of apathy are in the minority, or my experiences are coincidentally a selection of rare times that bullying is addressed...

Athon

[briandunning]

My son was about that age, and though he wasn't really being bullied, he's very shy and was having trouble making friends, and there were certainly bully-type boys in class who wanted nothing to do with him.

We had a movie night at our house and invited all the boys in his class. I got out the LCD projector and put The Incredibles on our living room wall, 15 feet across, surround sound and all. Pizza, etc. From then on, my son was everyone's favorite guy, no more problems.

Same strategy with our nuisance next door neighbors. Practically everyone on the street had called police, reported them to the association, knocked on their door to complain, and none of this had any effect. Finally we tried changing gears - we had them over for a barbecue, they reciprocated, and ever since (although I still hate them and they're still annoying as hell) they have stopped all their offending noise and other activities.

I hope you get it solved, one way or the other. It made me sick to read. Sick and angry. Good luck with your little guy. :)

[Dave1001]

I have a young child in private school. I recently found out that another child in the school has been bullying him for no apparent reason, and my kid has come home with bruises on his arms, legs, and once just above his groin where this other kid has punched and kicked him.

My kid has been attacked twice more by this other kid, even after I have had conferences with the teacher and the principal of the school.

I have recently found out that this other kid has violently attacked at least 3 other children on a regular basis at this school.

I have taught my kid how to defend himself until he can get away and notify an adult, and he has done so twice now. We're talking young children -- age 6 and 7.

I've also essentially solved the problem temporarily for my child by teaching him how to watch his back, how to avoid ambushes in the bathroom, and how to avoid eye contact with this psychopath. And yet I am unsatisfied with this solution in the long term, because I think it is unacceptable that my kid can't go where he wants, go to the bathroom, talk to whomever he wants without fear of getting mugged. Particulary when this is a private school and they aren't required by the state to keep the psycho as a student.

What else can I do in this situation, teachers?

What the other kid is doing is illegal. Just touching somebody without their consent is illegal. In addition to the work you're doing teaching your son to defend himself, let the bully's parents know that you'll report future non-consensual touching (or worse) to the police, and that they may also face civil liability to your son.

[Dave1001]

There's nothing worse in a case like this than having the parents set an example of physical altercation themselves. What is it with adults that think physical violence resolves a dispute? Boggles my mind.

About suing, that's fine if you actually do it but I imagine school employees have heard that claim, "I'm going to sue", enough times they likely consider it a fake threat. This isn't a civil case unless the injured child can't return to school or if there are medical bills or something really serious like that. The assaulting child may need the intervention of the courts if the parents are incapable. Even just a visit from a police officer may have a positive effect. Otherwise, suing isn't really much of a solution.

That's not true. One can have a civil case even if the injured child can return to school, and one can sue civilly for more than medical bills.

I agree having parents set an example of physical altercation themselves is a bad idea, but parents setting an example of assertiveness can be very good.

[Kevin_Lowe]

We have certainly seen in the last PC years that NOT punishing sure isnt the way to solve the problem. I hope there is a solution somewhere, but Im betting that not punishing is at the root of a LOT of problems, not just for kids either

An alternative to punishment for punishment's sake would be to ensure dangerous students have no opportunities to bully others. They could be required to check in at the school early to do busywork, stay late to do busywork, and spend their lunch breaks under supervision.

That seems to me to be greatly preferable to advising the bully's victims to stay within arm's length of an adult at all times. It involves a bit more work on the part of the teachers, but teachers show up voluntarily and get paid to do so whereas the bully's victims are forced to show up whether they wish to or not.

It might not fix the bully, but that's quite all right. Our first priority should be to keep the victim safe, and our second to fix the bully if that is indeed possible.

[pipelineaudio]

An alternative to punishment for punishment's sake would be to ensure dangerous students have no opportunities to bully others. They could be required to check in at the school early to do busywork, stay late to do busywork, and spend their lunch breaks under supervision.

How is that not punishment?

That WAS punishment in my middle school, they called it in school suspensions. Before school and after school you had to stay and write reports on all sorts of useless crap

Do that for a week and see if you want to get into trouble anymore

[Kevin_Lowe]

How is that not punishment?

That WAS punishment in my middle school, they called it in school suspensions. Before school and after school you had to stay and write reports on all sorts of useless crap

Do that for a week and see if you want to get into trouble anymore

What I actually said was that this was not punishment for punishment's sake.

I don't think they would enjoy it and it might have a deterrent or reforming effect, but even if it neither deterred nor reformed it would still be worth doing.

[John Bentley]

Hey y'all,

I've been out of town for the past three days and just now got back to where I could reply. Wow! I wasn't expecting such a huge response. I'm reading through all the responses, but it's going to take a while because I have to fit in important stuff like this between bouts of stupid things like work.

This topic was of course what my wife and I talked about all weekend, and I thought I'd give a quick update. We have a lawyer lined up. I'll get back to you and let you know what she said.

Thanks for all the support.

[Flo]

One solution I didn't see evoqued (correct me if I'm wrong) is to talk to the parents of other bullied kids and collectively demand the school direction take some action, under threat of collectively suing.

One form of action I've seen be useful (in Switzerland) was to collectively contact the parents of a bully, in order to arrive to some understanding of the situation and its potential consequences, for the bully and his/her family. It was done under the supervision of a school concillor so as to avoid any unseemly behavior from both parties.

[Katana]

One solution I didn't see evoqued (correct me if I'm wrong) is to talk to the parents of other bullied kids and collectively demand the school direction take some action, under threat of collectively suing.

One form of action I've seen be useful (in Switzerland) was to collectively contact the parents of a bully, in order to arrive to some understanding of the situation and its potential consequences, for the bully and his/her family. It was done under the supervision of a school concillor so as to avoid any unseemly behavior from both parties.

Shera did mention this, too.

I agree with adding this to the list of things attempted. Any complaint (either another one to the school or as a less formal appeal to the bully's parents) will carry much more weight if the parents of other bullied kids are involved. Strength in numbers. It's much harder to dismiss the concerns of a group.

Either way, I think it's wise to involve a lawyer at this point. Sad that it had to come to that, but you gave the school a chance to act and it didn't. What's happening to your son (and the other children) is inexcusable and cannot continue.

[gnome]

How is that not punishment?

That WAS punishment in my middle school, they called it in school suspensions. Before school and after school you had to stay and write reports on all sorts of useless crap

Do that for a week and see if you want to get into trouble anymore

That would have been true enough for me, but there are plenty of counterexamples. My stepdaughter, for instance. She's not a major delinquent... but she wound up in ISS a lot last year due to skipping school. She LOVED it. She got to avoid her classes and the work she was supposed to be doing there, in favor of the busy work they handed out which was much easier, and they didn't really care too much whether you finished. So she could poke around at the busy work while being thrust into a room full of many colorful and troubled individuals (her favorite people to get to know).

This year she's doing far better, thankfully. Something finally kicked in, I don't know what.

[John Bentley]

Well,

Here's an update. For those who want the bottom line only - the attacks have stopped, and my kid is no longer restricted in where or when he can go anywhere in the school. The psycho has a teacher assigned to watch him every minute, and he is not allowed to interact with my kid at all. This is satisfactory for now, as my kid has his full freedom, doesn't have to look over his shoulder, and the bully is the one being restricted. We'll see how long that lasts. Seems like a ticking time bomb to me.

For those who want details:

The attacks on my kid have stopped -- at least for the last 3 weeks -- and I find that an improvement, because my kid was telling me that he was getting jumped at least every other day before.

As an aside, I'm afraid that my kid is one of those who will take bullying rather than raise a fuss. The first I knew of it was when the bully's violence had escalated to the point of leaving bruises. And yet my kid and I talk all the time, and are very close. Pretty scary. Lets you know how child abusers get away with stuff so easily.

This is a very small school, and I know most of the people there. Ready for irony? The wacko is the son of the school counselor, and the grandson of one of the teachers. Hence the reason the psycho is still there.

To summarize your responses:

1. If nothing gets done, threaten the principal with a lawsuit.

I've had 3 meetings with the principal. After the first two, my kid was attacked because he "tattled", and the response from the principal was unsatisfactory at best. At the last meeting, I told her that I can protect my kid when I'm around, but when he is at this school, it is her job to make sure he is safe. If she can't handle that, then I will sue the school, contact the papers (I have lots of reporter friends and one editor friend on the local paper who say that this type of story is "hot" right now, and they will publish it if I want), whatever it takes to make her life miserable. It was at this meeting that I learned the little tidbit about the bully being the counselor's son, and that he has a history of beating on other kids as well. I told her I thought the bully's problems and motivations were irrelevant to me, that I had zero sympathy, and the next step would get ugly for her, the bully's parents, and the school. Since that meeting, the bully has been restricted severely in his comings and goings. A teacher has been assigned to watch over his every move, and as far as I know, no incidents have occurred.

2. Quit threatening and get the police and lawyers involved right now.

My wife and I have seen a lawyer. We were told that because no further incidents have occurred, there is nothing else to do. The police can only go after the parents of the kid, and would consider this as a waste of time and resources, and likely be much less willing to help out if something serious happens in the future. The argument could be made that the school has complied with my demands that my kid's environment be made safe, so the courts would also consider legal action as a waste of time, and worse, as an act of vindictiveness on my part. There seems to be no way to get this kid expelled from the school without further violence erupting on his part. Talk about a ticking time bomb! I'm still looking for another legal opinion on this matter.

3. Meet with the bully's parents.

I have done this. They actually seem very nice, and I think that the possibility that this kid is a bully because he is abused at home is pretty small, although you can never tell. They seem at their wit's end over this kid. They know he is a troublemaker, he is seeing a shrink for his problem, and they really don't know what else to do. I have also met the kid, and he seems...off somehow. You can tell that all his points aren't firing in the right order. He has a completely emotionless facade, like he lives in his own little world. He has shark eyes -- nothing behind them at all. Maybe autistic? I don't know. I don't care, really, when it comes down to it. Just keep your little psycho away from my kid! Didn't say that to the parents directly, but got my point across. Told them that I thought they were nice people, that I didn't know what I would do if I had a problem child like that, but that my main interest was in protecting my kid, and I would do whatever it took to achieve that. Maybe I was a little too forceful, my wife tells me I can be intimidating when I'm angry, and they did look a little nervous at the end. Oh well, all to the good, I say.

4. Teach my kid to fight back and make the bully pick an easier target.

I hold three black belts. I've taught martial arts (both the "hitting and kicking" variety and the "get 'em on the ground and tie their arms and legs in knots" variety). One thing I have learned is that knowing how to fight and being willing to aggessively hurt another person is a huge gap that some people just can't cross. I'm afraid that my son is just incapable of knowingly attempting to hurt another kid at this point. That is good in one way, because he is very gentle and sweet, but bad in another because he is willing to take a lot of abuse to keep from lashing out. I've at least taught him how to disengage himself from the fight, either by getting the other kid on the ground or breaking their grip, so he can get away, but that seems to be about as far as he is willing to go. I'll keep trying, because like I tell him, this is unlikely to be the last time he encounters a bully.

Also, this bully is really a wacko. I'm not so sure that he would back off if my kid fought back. The bully has already escalated the violence because my kid told his teacher, and the one time my kid knocked him down, he came roaring back and was obviously searching around on the ground for a stick or a rock to use as a weapon. This report from a teacher on the scene. I repeat, this kid is DANGEROUSLY WACKO!

5. Bullying is a serious problem, and needs to be understood and dealt with in a caring manner.

PUH-LEEZ! I don't give a rat's red patootie about all that. This kid is a danger to everyone he encounters, and should be removed from "polite society" before it gets worse. Where to put him? Don't know, don't care at this point. Probably a good discussion for another thread.

6. Beat up the kid's parents.

Again, as tempting as this is, and as capable as I am of doing it... PUH-LEEZ! I can't afford to go to jail, which is where that behavior will end me. At best in a law suit of my own. Besides, I can think of no way this will help the situation, other than being momentarily satisfying for myself.

7. Contact other parents who have problems with this kid.

This seems to be the way to go for the future. I have contacted other parents whose kids this psycho has terrorized. One of them is my other kid's kindergarten teacher. Her 1st grader has been tormented a lot by this wacko. She has been afraid to tell the principal for fear of causing trouble with her job. I almost hit the roof with that one. I told her that she has a very clear choice...stand up for her kid or choose to sacrifice her kid to make her job more pleasant. When I put it that way, she looked appropriately ashamed. I'm hoping I can find several more parents and we can present a united front to get this kid removed from the school.

8. Move to another school.

This may also be a viable option, but only after fighting the good fight. If my kid were continuing to be beaten up, we would of course leave. But for now, he is being protected while at school. And there is something that just grates against my nerves to just cut and run when the bad guys give you trouble. As long as my kid is safe, we'll fight to stay where we are and have this nutcase taken out of the school.

So...any other avenues to explore? I'm looking for a "school law" lawyer to consult. It's going to have to be someone out of town, no one here is exceptionally experienced in that area. I'll keep you posted.

[Dave1001]

This is a very small school, and I know most of the people there. Ready for irony? The wacko is the son of the school counselor, and the grandson of one of the teachers. Hence the reason the psycho is still there.



8. Move to another school.

This may also be a viable option, but only after fighting the good fight. If my kid were continuing to be beaten up, we would of course leave. But for now, he is being protected while at school. And there is something that just grates against my nerves to just cut and run when the bad guys give you trouble. As long as my kid is safe, we'll fight to stay where we are and have this nutcase taken out of the school.


I think moving to another school has become the best option. The bully seems like he has too many institutional biases in his favor. The son of the school counselor?! Your kid is going to go to that person for counseling?

If the major reason you have for staying and fighting at that school is pride or principles, then I'd say switch schools. It doesn't sound like your son is sharing negative things that happen with you, and it may be hard to gauge if he's getting negative treatment from the bully, other students, or even the administrators that won't show as bruises. It doesn't seem like a neutral environment to me.

[Kaylee]

I think moving to another school has become the best option. The bully seems like he has too many institutional biases in his favor. The son of the school counselor?! Your kid is going to go to that person for counseling?
Or, in the future, get taught by the bully's grandfather or one of the grandfather's friends? Yikes!

Also, FWIW, I would bet that the bully not only has family employed at the school, but that his family probably also donates a lot of money or are well connected to people who do. It is just too odd that a private school has not tried to deal with this bully before you practically forced them too.

If the major reason you have for staying and fighting at that school is pride or principles, then I'd say switch schools. It doesn't sound like your son is sharing negative things that happen with you, and it may be hard to gauge if he's getting negative treatment from the bully, other students, or even the administrators that won't show as bruises. It doesn't seem like a neutral environment to me.
Yeah, there are lots of subtle ways to damage a kid too. But before switching schools, I think I would try to find out if the other options have similar or even worse issues.

ETA: Well done on succeeding in forcing the school to deal with the issue, and making the place safe for your kid and the others!

[pgwenthold]

It seems in this case that the parents are trying, and you should appreciate that. You are correct in telling them that it is not your problem, but at the same time, recognize they are not the problem, either.

In this regard, you are lucky. When it comes to bullies, I worry about the parents a lot, too. For example, we had bullies growing up, but going to their parents wouldn't do much good, especially the father. He was in school with my mom, and, sure enough, he was a bully when he was in school, too. In that case, the response would be to tell your kid to toughen up. It doesn't work too well to play on the sympathies of a bully, because, obviously, they don't have many. So if their parents were bullies, they aren't going to be sympathetic, either.

[athon]

An alternative to punishment for punishment's sake would be to ensure dangerous students have no opportunities to bully others. They could be required to check in at the school early to do busywork, stay late to do busywork, and spend their lunch breaks under supervision.

That seems to me to be greatly preferable to advising the bully's victims to stay within arm's length of an adult at all times. It involves a bit more work on the part of the teachers, but teachers show up voluntarily and get paid to do so whereas the bully's victims are forced to show up whether they wish to or not.

It might not fix the bully, but that's quite all right. Our first priority should be to keep the victim safe, and our second to fix the bully if that is indeed possible.

Gah, I must be going insane in my old age, but this is a reasonable and proactive suggestion. (never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with Lowe on something ;) )

Unfortunately it cannot be done as an isolated action. The kid has to work towards recognizing how their behaviour impacts on others and how it must change, which has to be monitored and dealt with by parents, teachers and administration. I've seen this approach in the school I worked at in Essex - denial of a bully's freedom indeed makes others feel safer while they're inside, however 'Inclusion' (removal from the school environment while remaining on school grounds, as opposed to 'exclusion') comes a great costs in terms of time and resources, something a school needs to acknowledge are needed, which often means accepting that they have behavioural problems that demand it.

5. Bullying is a serious problem, and needs to be understood and dealt with in a caring manner.

PUH-LEEZ! I don't give a rat's red patootie about all that. This kid is a danger to everyone he encounters, and should be removed from "polite society" before it gets worse. Where to put him? Don't know, don't care at this point. Probably a good discussion for another thread.

I don't know if this is aimed at my suggestion or not, but I'll tackle the issue anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by the word 'caring', as it smacks of condescension towards what I see as understanding where the issues start and how they manifest in a bully. This can lead to preventing the problems in potential bullies of the future, while preventing the creation of further problems in the futures of those who already bully. Reactive 'kick 'em out' attitudes don't work, and will never work. Sorry - it's great to feel that as a parent (and as a kid who was bullied himself, I would have loved it), but the problems exist precisely because of this attitude of 'it's other people's issue'.

This bully learned the behaviour somewhere. If he has a supportive homelife, then I'll bet this problem will be easier to solve than if he learned the behaviour at home. I agree, it is poor that it takes threats for the school to take some form of action, yet this would be a sad case for society if the bully found himself in another school - again without reform - only to degenerate further and learn increasingly criminal behaviours, as all too often happens.

Athon

[Almo]

I was given all sorts of advice when I had the problem. None of it worked. Two things worked: finally getting into a school where the staff cared, and hitting them really hard. I klunked one kid on the head with a metal lunch box with two glass thermoses in it. He left me alone. Another one got a really hard kick in the balls. He left me alone. Another had his finger dislocated when I bit it. He left me alone.

I'll stop typing before I go on a tirade about these loser kids and how...

[Kevin_Lowe]

Gah, I must be going insane in my old age, but this is a reasonable and proactive suggestion. (never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with Lowe on something ;) )


Maybe you just cooled off? I said exactly the same thing in our previous discussion.

From this post:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=978722&highlight=bully#post978722

"If they're a danger to others they can stay back and clean dusters for half an hour as far as I'm concerned. They can show up half an hour early too if that's what it takes, and spend their lunch time picking up rubbish. If they will victimise others left unsupervised then they should not be left unsupervised.

You can't do anything about them on weekends, but I don't think anyone sane expects schools or teachers to be responsible for what happens outside school days." - Me.

I can't help but admit a certain amount of gratification that the school is doing exactly this, and it has solved the problem at least temporarily.


This bully learned the behaviour somewhere. If he has a supportive homelife, then I'll bet this problem will be easier to solve than if he learned the behaviour at home. I agree, it is poor that it takes threats for the school to take some form of action, yet this would be a sad case for society if the bully found himself in another school - again without reform - only to degenerate further and learn increasingly criminal behaviours, as all too often happens.


In this case it sounds like the child is manifesting the clinical signs of sociopathy (flat affect et.al.). Many such people are just broken at a biological level, and no amount of caring will enable their brains to function normally. Some of them do eventually find socially useful niches in the military or in other situations where fearlessness and inability to learn from experience are a plus.

[athon]

Maybe you just cooled off? I said exactly the same thing in our previous discussion.
I can't help but admit a certain amount of gratification that the school is doing exactly this, and it has solved the problem at least temporarily.


:rolleyes:

Yes, well, you always were the clever one, Lowe.

In this case it sounds like the child is manifesting the clinical signs of sociopathy (flat affect et.al.). Many such people are just broken at a biological level, and no amount of caring will enable their brains to function normally. Some of them do eventually find socially useful niches in the military or in other situations where fearlessness and inability to learn from experience are a plus.

You can make a bold psychiatric assessment based on a single-perspective, second-hand account of a handful of incidences? Wow, I really underestimated your genius, it seems.

Although biology always plays a varying role in behaviour, examples of this particular situation are incredibly common (nothing in this account appears to indicate anything significant in this child's form of anti-social behaviour). So going so far as to label it a neurological pathology is at best premature, and at worst purely dismissive of the problem. Once again, closing one's eyes and pushing the problem on is why the problem exists in the first place.

As I said, this child learned how to behave this way, either in direct imitation, as a constructed coping mechanism in another time and place, or perhaps in displacement of a situation that happened to him personally. True, some kids have anger control problems, or have a difficulty in being able to empathise, yet such pathologies manifest themselves in multiple ways, not just in bullying.

Athon

[gnome]

Some of them do eventually find socially useful niches in the military or in other situations where fearlessness and inability to learn from experience are a plus.

Is inability to learn from experience a plus in the military?

[Kevin_Lowe]

:rolleyes:

Yes, well, you always were the clever one, Lowe.


Yes.


You can make a bold psychiatric assessment based on a single-perspective, second-hand account of a handful of incidences? Wow, I really underestimated your genius, it seems.

If you read what I wrote, I said "It sounds like a case of X, and many cases of X are not fixable by any amount of caring".

That's not a bold assessment in any sane person's language.


Although biology always plays a varying role in behaviour, examples of this particular situation are incredibly common (nothing in this account appears to indicate anything significant in this child's form of anti-social behaviour). So going so far as to label it a neurological pathology is at best premature, and at worst purely dismissive of the problem. Once again, closing one's eyes and pushing the problem on is why the problem exists in the first place.

On the other hand exactly this kind of behaviour can also be caused by untreatable biological problems. So stating that the kid is fixable with TLC is exactly as wrong as I would hav been, had I stated that the kid was certainly untreatable (they way you wish I had).

Is inability to learn from experience a plus in the military?

Yes. If normal people do something and nearly get killed you'll have a hard time getting them to do it again. Sociopaths are undeterred by bad experiences, because they just don't learn from them the way normal people do.

[Dave1001]

Is inability to learn from experience a plus in the military?

In all seriousness, yes.
Otherwise who would go into a combat zone twice?

[John Bentley]

Hey everyone,

The kid slipped his leash and viciously attacked another kid on the playground with a stick yesterday. This kid is only 6 years old. Jeez!

I've thought about leaving the school, and decided against it for a bunch of reasons. I have 5 kids in the school. They've all been there for a few years and they all have friends there, etc. There are no great number of choices as alternatives. The local public school is in a very bad neighborhood, and the law won't let you change public schools from the district you are in. The other private schools are prohibitively expensive, costing about 5 times as much as the one they are in. I suppose I could move to another public school district, but that would entail moving my kids away from all their friends, their social outlets, etc. I just can't see why my family should have to totally be thrown into chaos so this one bully can stay in this school.

The administration is still keeping my kid strictly isolated from the bully, so he is in no physical danger, and I am going to fight to have the bully expelled before resorting to having my whole family leave the school.

Athon,

You seem to be a nice guy, but just how much of our resources do we devote to these types of kids? How many other kids need to suffer in literal fear so they can be accomodated? What level of "unsafety" should we tolerate to allow these kids to interact? I don't know the solution, and I realize that shoving them around only makes them a threat for the rest of their lives. Maybe each school could have a psycho ward that has different rules, times to be out, etc. I just don't know. Is there any evidence that these kids would change their behavior if accomodated as you suggest? What do you think?

[Hagrok]

Hey everyone,

The kid slipped his leash and viciously attacked another kid on the playground with a stick yesterday. This kid is only 6 years old. Jeez!
Maybe you've covered this already, but have you considered banding together with some of the other parents who's children have been attacked? Seems to me that if enough parents were saying the same thing you are, they'd have to do something (especially if the school is as small as you've alluded to). Is there a PTA?

[John Bentley]

Maybe you've covered this already, but have you considered banding together with some of the other parents who's children have been attacked? Seems to me that if enough parents were saying the same thing you are, they'd have to do something (especially if the school is as small as you've alluded to). Is there a PTA?

I am banding even as we speak. Hope to have a group together in a few days to maybe a couple of weeks.

[athon]

Athon,

You seem to be a nice guy, but just how much of our resources do we devote to these types of kids? How many other kids need to suffer in literal fear so they can be accomodated? What level of "unsafety" should we tolerate to allow these kids to interact? I don't know the solution, and I realize that shoving them around only makes them a threat for the rest of their lives. Maybe each school could have a psycho ward that has different rules, times to be out, etc. I just don't know. Is there any evidence that these kids would change their behavior if accomodated as you suggest? What do you think?

Sorry to hear the problem continues.

The first question you ask is the biggest and the hardest to answer. On one hand, we all feel that a school's resources should be devoted as much as possible to kids who are worthy of them and put in the effort to deserve them. Hence it seems to offend our sense of justice when 60% of a school's time and money is aimed at, say, 10% of the school in order to keep order and discipline. On the other hand, schools are the focus of a healthy future society, and it's here that solvable problems can develop over time into major social issues.

In my opinion, even though those with major behavioural problems are in the extreme minority, each school needs to have a focussed and educated response to anti social behaviours. Many schools have an entire unit devoted to behavioural problems, although sadly others seem to think they don't require one.

As for kids feeling unsafe in their school environment, that is a major concern. School is the one place people should feel safe. There is no particular level of threat that should be reached before response is taken - as soon as a threat demonstrates itself is the moment reactions are required.

It is the nature of those reactions that I am arguing, as most people seem to feel the action should only take into account their individual situation. While it is paramount that your child feels safe, the school should be concerned about the surrounding situation as well.

Think of it this way; we have three different reasons for a penal system in the western world - removal, revenge and rehabilitation. The first one makes people feel that they are safer, the second appeals to our sense of justice. The third - and the most important - is one rarely discussed. Yet without it, society would be rather different.

Schools hold the key to fixing the problems before they expand. A bully could either be a potential future criminal or somebody who can contribute to society. Giving them 'TLC' is not what I'm insinuating, but rather treating the issue as a more three dimensional problem with multiple factors.

Firstly, the bully needs to be segregated from the general school population if they have demonstrated a pattern of aggressive behaviours. Second, they need to acknowledge the situation they are in and recognize their behavoiur as being wrong. Third, they need to negotiate ways to prevent future episodes of such behaviour, and need to themselves decide on consequences if they fail to do so. An inability to perform the above actions means then - and only then - should further options be explored.

Outside of this, there needs to be designated safe zones around the school where students can be and feel they are out of harm's way. Classrooms with lunch-clubs on, for example. Of course, there should also be campaigns and programs (such as social clubs and sporting activities) throughout the school year that highlight the need for good social interactions and the unacceptability of bullying.

Schools I have worked in with the above approach have few 'repeat offences'. They are not perfect schools (especially with high populations of previously expelled students), but they do work.

Good luck again. Schools will wake up slowly, but it's been a gradual evolution from even a decade ago when extreme bullying was ignored as a necessity of the 'pecking order'.

Athon

[athon]

If you read what I wrote, I said "It sounds like a case of X, and many cases of X are not fixable by any amount of caring".

That's not a bold assessment in any sane person's language.

Highlighting 'sounds like X' does not make it any less bold.

'By the look of your sniffles, it sounds like you have AIDS'.

On the other hand exactly this kind of behaviour can also be caused by untreatable biological problems. So stating that the kid is fixable with TLC is exactly as wrong as I would hav been, had I stated that the kid was certainly untreatable (they way you wish I had).

See my previous analogy. Sure, the kid might have a major, untreatable behavioural pathology (I'd like you to give me an example of one that's 'untreatable', but then perhaps that's for another thread), however I've seen nothing to even slightly reason that this might be the case.

Perhaps something to back up your statement might be good.

Athon

[John Bentley]

Athon,

Do you have any evidence other than your own anecdotal experiences where "bullying programs" in the school work? I would love to go into my admins office with a solution and a load of evidence to back up that it works.

[athon]

Athon,

Do you have any evidence other than your own anecdotal experiences where "bullying programs" in the school work? I would love to go into my admins office with a solution and a load of evidence to back up that it works.

I'm going through my storage boxes at the moment. Yes, there is plenty of stuff out there. I'll try to find some pdf versions of the reports I have.

Athon

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's not true. One can have a civil case even if the injured child can return to school, and one can sue civilly for more than medical bills.

I agree having parents set an example of physical altercation themselves is a bad idea, but parents setting an example of assertiveness can be very good.You can sue for anything.

That doesn't mean the vast majority of people threatening lawsuits ever follow through.

You can sue for anything.

That doesn't mean lawsuits are worth the time and cost. If a lawyer doesn't think he/she will recover fees then expect to pay about $5,000 minimum with no guarantee of recovering any of it.

You can sue for anything.

That doesn't mean a judge will find the damages worth the cost of the lawsuit. Nor is there any guarantee you won't be saddled with the other party's legal fees if the judge decides your damage claims are frivolous.

[Skeptic Ginger]

These three sites look good:

Love Our Children (http://loveourchildrenusa.org/index.php)

Bully Stoppers (http://www.bullystoppers.com/)

Nationally recognized Bullying prevention program (http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/safeschools/bullying/overview.html)

[athon]

Thanks skeptigirl. There's indeed a number of sites out there that are damn helpful.

Turning my old storage boxes upside down (luckily I'm home for Xmas and need to do it anyway), I can find several school evaluations reporting on the effectiveness of their behavioural and classroom management policies, which goes into some detail on bullying. I have one relevant pdf, which after looking at it, I don't feel comfortable passing on (it's an interdepartmental document which concludes that previous semester's changes to discipline procedures were evaluated to be effective).

However they do make some references to Queensland department of education recommendations, which I'll see if I can find online. I've emailed a friend of mine back in the UK to see if they have any evaluative reports concerning the system that was used at my last school.

Athon

[delphi_ote]

One thing I have learned is that knowing how to fight and being willing to aggessively hurt another person is a huge gap that some people just can't cross. I'm afraid that my son is just incapable of knowingly attempting to hurt another kid at this point.
John, you're absolutely right. I'm one of those people that just can't hurt someone else. Martial arts, football, wrestling... it was all fun until it came down to the "hurt the other guy" part. I've always been like that, and I had a terrible time with bullies.

Oddly, if a third party was being bullied, I could snap to being assertive in a way that intimidated bullies. They left me and the third party alone. I learned a lot from those situations. I have no idea if that bit of information helps, but I thought it was worth sharing the experience.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Highlighting 'sounds like X' does not make it any less bold.

'By the look of your sniffles, it sounds like you have AIDS'.


If someone displays flat affect, social ineptness, senselessly violent criminal tendencies and inability to learn from punishment it's not proof that they would be diagnosed as a psychopath and a sociopath by a psychiatrist, but you'd be an idiot not to give the idea significant weight.

There are several non-conclusive signs all pointing in the same direction and none pointing away.


See my previous analogy. Sure, the kid might have a major, untreatable behavioural pathology (I'd like you to give me an example of one that's 'untreatable', but then perhaps that's for another thread), however I've seen nothing to even slightly reason that this might be the case.

Perhaps something to back up your statement might be good.


Psychopathy is untreateable and, as far as we know, has a significant genetic basis. (Frankly I think the science involved in the genetic claim is on the dodgy side but it's still the best we have at the moment).

Sociopathy is in theory treatable, but the psychopathic sociopath is just a problem because they can't empathise or learn from punishment, and the little darling in question displays symptoms of both pathologies.

However they do make some references to Queensland department of education recommendations, which I'll see if I can find online. I've emailed a friend of mine back in the UK to see if they have any evaluative reports concerning the system that was used at my last school.


For readers new to the topic, it's worth bearing in mind that such studies file a lot of things under the heading of "bullying" besides hard-core cases like the one we are discussing.

You can get a high success rate in stopping bullying if only you define bullying broadly enough in the first place, but you can't generalise from that success rate to the success rate in dealing with real problem cases.

[pipelineaudio]

For readers new to the topic, it's worth bearing in mind that such studies file a lot of things under the heading of "bullying" besides hard-core cases like the one we are discussing.

You can get a high success rate in stopping bullying if only you define bullying broadly enough in the first place, but you can't generalise from that success rate to the success rate in dealing with real problem cases.

This is a really important point.

When "bullying" can be defined as not sharing your twinkie with someone, the real problem is going to get a lot less attention.

[Wudang]

Very good point. You see this in many areas. Define the metrics to include every possible marginal variant, stop the easy variants, ignore the difficult ones, then claim a high success rate because kids no longer have the option not to share their twinkies. Meanwhile the kid who's terrified to walk to school is an unfortunate isolated case who slipped through the net because resources are overstretched.

[Marc L]

This was in the early 80s before Columbine was a meme, but when that attack happened -- even though I hadn't seen the inside of a school for years -- there was a tiny little part of me that thought, "wow, finally! Score one for my team."

Heh. I actually had the same thought when it happened. I too, was a victim of bullying growing up. My father told me it was my fault. :mad:

The BorgMonkey will be taught self-defense when she starts school. I also will be telling her how to stand up for herself, and if someone starts trouble with her, it's their fault, not hers.

Marc

[Marc L]

Just touching somebody without their consent is illegal.

Are you serious? I've never heard that before. You mean if I tap someone on the shoulder to get their attention, I could be charged with a crime?

Note, I'm not being a smartass, here. I am honestly shocked by your statement, and would appreciate you explaining it.

Marc

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I klunked one kid on the head with a metal lunch box with two glass thermoses in it. He left me alone. Another one got a really hard kick in the balls. He left me alone. Another had his finger dislocated when I bit it. He left me alone.

Ultimately, this is the only thing that works. You can psychoanalyze why they do what they do until the end of time, but a good old fashioned ass kicking is usually all that it takes.

[Marc L]

I think moving to another school has become the best option. The bully seems like he has too many institutional biases in his favor. The son of the school counselor?! Your kid is going to go to that person for counseling?

If the major reason you have for staying and fighting at that school is pride or principles, then I'd say switch schools. It doesn't sound like your son is sharing negative things that happen with you, and it may be hard to gauge if he's getting negative treatment from the bully, other students, or even the administrators that won't show as bruises. It doesn't seem like a neutral environment to me.

On the other hand, you moving to another school protects your kid, but does nothing to help the other kids that are being bullied. If you stay and fight, there's a better chance of getting other parents to rally with you, and ultimately, a better chance of resolving the problem.

Besides, what will you do at the next school if your kid gets bullied there? Run away again? How many schools are in your district? And what sort of message do you send to your kid by running away?

Marc

[Kevin_Lowe]

Are you serious? I've never heard that before. You mean if I tap someone on the shoulder to get their attention, I could be charged with a crime?

Note, I'm not being a smartass, here. I am honestly shocked by your statement, and would appreciate you explaining it.


You don't even need to touch someone. It's assault to squirt water at someone, shine a light in their eyes, balst them with an air horn or fake a punch at them, at least in Australia.

Touching someone without their consent is assault. You might not get much of a sentence for minor cases, but it's still illegal if they or a police officer choose to press the point.

[Dave1001]

On the other hand, you moving to another school protects your kid, but does nothing to help the other kids that are being bullied. If you stay and fight, there's a better chance of getting other parents to rally with you, and ultimately, a better chance of resolving the problem.

Besides, what will you do at the next school if your kid gets bullied there? Run away again? How many schools are in your district? And what sort of message do you send to your kid by running away?

Marc

First of all, one's kids aren't martyrs. There's no obligation to keep one's kid in a school to fight for a larger cause. Secondly, it's statistically improbable that in the next school his kid would go to, his kid would be bullied by another kid that has multiple family members on staff. Any school that is unable to expell a student that is committing multiple felony assaults on one's kid is not a reasonable place to send one's kid for an education for any reason barring that one has no other or better options.

[Dave1001]

Are you serious? I've never heard that before. You mean if I tap someone on the shoulder to get their attention, I could be charged with a crime?

Note, I'm not being a smartass, here. I am honestly shocked by your statement, and would appreciate you explaining it.

Marc

Yup, it's an important point to know, and very few people are aware of it. Touching someone without their express consent is illegal. Important to know in charged encounters with legally informed people. Don't touch them, and don't fake puch them (act like you're going to hit them but don't actually hit them). One is battery and the other is assault. You can be arrested for both. Also be careful not to say or write something about them that you can't prove unless you preface it with "In my opinion" or "according to X source". That's not illegal but you can face civil liability, in my understanding.

[Marc L]

First of all, one's kids aren't martyrs. There's no obligation to keep one's kid in a school to fight for a larger cause.

So you advocate teaching your kids to run away from problems rather than confronting them?

Secondly, it's statistically improbable that in the next school his kid would go to, his kid would be bullied by another kid that has multiple family members on staff.

Granted, he may not face that same exact situation, but given his kid's disposition (sweet and gentle, I believe he said), I can guarantee he's likely to get bullied at the next school. Changing schools doesn't solve the inherent problem.

Any school that is unable to expell a student that is committing multiple felony assaults on one's kid is not a reasonable place to send one's kid for an education for any reason barring that one has no other or better options.

There I agree with you. But the kid is going to that school, and I believe it would be better for John to do what he's doing-band together with the other parents and force the school to deal with this situation. Letting them get away with it does just that-let's them get away with it. The bully will continue to bully, and then other kids will see that, and learn that they can get away with bullying, too. Unless kids are sent the message that bullying is wrong, and that there will be consequences for it, they won't stop bullying. If you need a bunch of parents to get together to ram it down the school's throat, then so be it.

Marc

[Chris Haynes]

Athon,

Do you have any evidence other than your own anecdotal experiences where "bullying programs" in the school work? I would love to go into my admins office with a solution and a load of evidence to back up that it works.

Skeptigirl gave some links... Here is another (it was used in my kids' elemetary school): http://www.cfchildren.org/aboutf/faq

Though from reading this thread, it looks like those programs would work for the majority of the kids, but not that particular child in your kids' school. He sound like he needs to be professionally evaluated for neurodevelopmental (behavioral therapy for social interactions) and/or medical (possibly ADHD meds) treatment. The preschool I sent my younger kids to was not equipped to deal with kids like your bully, so when the teacher encountered them (about twice in the 5 year period I had kids with her) she sent the parents to a specific public school special ed. program. There they had specialists who worked with the kids in small groups. One parent took her up on the suggestion and later came back to thank the teacher... the other parent ignored her (and the last time I saw that child he was being kicked out of a kinder swimming class... so I have no idea what happened to him).

So even if you don't like your local public school district, they do have to abide by the rules of IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), and should have a program called "Childfind". The district may have a program (that you don't know about since you never needed it) that deals with kids like the bully (and unlike private school, public schools cannot refuse entry). They are usually related to ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder).

Here is some information you might want to take to the parents you are banding together with:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/oppositional-defiant-disorder/DS00630
and
http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic2791.htm

And here is a website on the law and special education, with this page specific to discipline and behavioral problems, just to add to your homework:
http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/discipl.index.htm

Good luck. We have been fortunate in not encountering that kind of bullying. I always feared that my oldest who is severely speech/language disabled would have problems, but they have been few (the only ones now are his lack of doing homework)... and the one time a child attacked one of my daughter's 2nd grade classmates (but that was taken care of quickly, and from then on he was never left alone without an aide... since he was deaf the aide was also his ASL interpreter).

[Dave1001]

So you advocate teaching your kids to run away from problems rather than confronting them?


My post makes it obvious that that's not what I advocate. Teaching one's kid isn't the same as sending them into an environment where the odds may be stacked against them. Such as an environment where they have been felony assaulted and battered, and the perpetrator hasn't been removed because the school counselor is their parent and a teacher is the batterer's relative too. That type of environment is a last resort, not a reasonable lesson-learning opportunity. As in "Dad, I didn't get beat up last week, although my counselor told me I'm a trouble-maker and a teacher at the school told me the same thing. Then today Bobby ran into me alone in the bathroom and beat me up again, giving me these bruises. I went to the school counselor and he became very upset with me, asking me what I did to cause this." Hopefully this is an unlikely scenario, but the basic facts of the situation are sufficiently unfair one that I don't think a kid should have to go through it unless they have no better options. Removing oneself from an environment like this is a good life lesson in itself, very different from "running away from problems" in general. In life, sometimes it's wise to confront problems, and other times it's wise to remove oneself from them when possible.

[Rob Lister]

A kid comes home with injuries?

That's not "bullying". That's a violent crime against a small child. Call the cops. Press charges. Make it plain that you will not accept this.

I'm a late poster here but I agree. The quickest way to make it stop is to call the cops. Presumably, that's what they are there for. But you'll likely get some resistance even from them, in which case, attempt to inform the press on a slow news week. You'd be amazed. For added benefit, file a civil suit both against the school and the parents and inform the press you did that too.

P.S. Be ready to face some bullying by the school yourself if you follow the latter advice.

[TragicMonkey]

I'm a late poster here but I agree. The quickest way to make it stop is to call the cops. Presumably, that's what they are there for. But you'll likely get some resistance even from them, in which case, attempt to inform the press on a slow news week. You'd be amazed. For added benefit, file a civil suit both against the school and the parents and inform the press you did that too.

P.S. Be ready to face some bullying by the school yourself if you follow the latter advice.

I suggest finding parents of other bullied children, banding together, then calling the local news team of busybodies. Every channel has them, they go and report on Good Citizens being Victimized. Nobody wants to turn on the local news and see their company (or school, in this case) being featured in a story called "Halls of Fear: Newington Elementary and the Principal That Doesn't Care". The more True Life horror stories you can supply the press, with the most victims, the more interested they'll be and the bigger the stink. A single kid or one set of parents can be dismissed as troublemakers or malcontents. Ten kids and twenty parents is going to be harder to talk away.

[athon]

Ultimately, this is the only thing that works. You can psychoanalyze why they do what they do until the end of time, but a good old fashioned ass kicking is usually all that it takes.

Sorry Scrut. Unless you have some good figures to back it up, I'm going to call foul on that.

Sometimes, you're right. The shock of retaliation encourages the bully to move onto simpler targets. However, the stereotype of this is actually not all that common.

Usually, one good arse-kicking deserves another. It turns from that into a violent reprisal, and before you know it, you have playground gang wars. Sure, showing you are willing to defend yourself is often better than sitting and copping it. Yet to think it's a sure-fire way of stopping the situation, it's anything but that.

Athon

[athon]

Education Queensland has some good information on the state policies on how to deal with bullying. Indeed, it can always be argued that schools don't committ to it, but at least the state will back you if you demonstrate that the school does not follow state policies.

http://education.qld.gov.au/curriculum/advocacy/access/equity/students/inclusion/supportive/cgp-bullying.html

The state department has banded together with other state groups throughout Australia to produce a site on bullying, together with definitions. Here's one on violence and bullying (in response to those who think state education view it all as the same thing);

Violence
Violence is the damaging and destructive use of force. Violence is often used to assert power over individuals.

Violence:

is not just physical – it takes many forms
affects the safety, rights and freedom of others
may be a one-off incident between individuals or groups
can involve an ongoing relationship between parties
may involve provoked or unprovoked acts
may be used by those victimised by bullying to redress the imbalance of power.
What is the difference between conflict and bullying?

from http://www.bullyingnoway.com.au/issues/types.shtml

The web site it's from is a good place to start looking for some useful ways to deal with the issue - as parents, students and as schools.

Bullying is an extremely diverse, complicated issue. It ranges from psychological to the downright physically abusive. It affects kids differently - some will crack on being isolated from the peer group, others will hardly flinch until it turns violent. Treating it as a simple problem which only needs some good, strong retaliation is as foolish as ignoring it in the first place.

Athon

[John Bentley]

Thanks everyone,

Thanks Skeptigirl, HC, and Athon. I'll be doing some reading for the next few days, I guess.

I've been exploring the options, and it looks like moving to another school is not a good idea. My district public school is in gangland, with drugs and kids having oral sex in the classroom (yes, in the second and third grade!). All other private schools in the area are either prohibitively expensive, or have lousy educational standards.

For now, the affected parents will gang together and force the school to do the right thing. It is up to me, I guess, to do my homework and decide what the right thing is likely to be.

I'll keep you posted.

[NeilC]

Hey everyone,

The kid slipped his leash and viciously attacked another kid on the playground with a stick yesterday. This kid is only 6 years old. Jeez!

I've thought about leaving the school, and decided against it for a bunch of reasons. I have 5 kids in the school. They've all been there for a few years and they all have friends there, etc. There are no great number of choices as alternatives. The local public school is in a very bad neighborhood, and the law won't let you change public schools from the district you are in. The other private schools are prohibitively expensive, costing about 5 times as much as the one they are in. I suppose I could move to another public school district, but that would entail moving my kids away from all their friends, their social outlets, etc. I just can't see why my family should have to totally be I thrown into chaos so this one bully can stay in this school.

The administration is still keeping my kid strictly isolated from the bully, so he is in no physical danger, and I am going to fight to have the bully expelled before resorting to having my whole family leave the school.



I think your child having to leave is a last resort that need never happen, particularly since the bully is attacking other children. It's no longer a problem between one pupil and another but now clearly about one nutcase against any child unfortunate enough to get caught alone by him.

I would have thought the school has a duty of care to its pupils and failure to fulfill that duty makes them legally responsible for any damages. Once they have been notified and seen the violence of this pupil then any attacks happening after that would seem to indicate that they are not exercising their duty sufficiently.

I'd pull all the parents together, especially ones of attacked children, document the attacks and the actions of the school and get different legal advice with a view to suing the school. I'd guess that early on in the proceedings of a legal case like this they would feel highly motivated to remove the problem (ie the bully) from their responsibility.

I'm impressed with what you've done already and hope I would do the same things if presented with the same situation.

[John Bentley]

Just read my own post, and let me clarify something. Drugs are in the second and third grade classrooms at the local public school, not oral sex. That doesn't seem to be happening until the kiddies are 10 or 11 years old, i.e. in 4th and 5th grade.

Just so you know.

[Marc L]

Just read my own post, and let me clarify something. Drugs are in the second and third grade classrooms at the local public school, not oral sex. That doesn't seem to be happening until the kiddies are 10 or 11 years old, i.e. in 4th and 5th grade.

Just so you know.


They have oral sex in the classroom???

Sheesh, my school was never that fun.

Marc

[John Bentley]

Yes, they do. All very amusing, I'm sure. Until it's your kid. I have no sense of humor about my kid's safety and well-being, I'm afraid.

Let me also clarify that this is not some weirdo sex ed thing in the local public school system. This is kids experimenting with oral sex, sometimes not willingly on the girl's part, in the classroom. There was a big stink about it around here not too long ago.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Sorry Scrut. Unless you have some good figures to back it up, I'm going to call foul on that.

Sometimes, you're right. The shock of retaliation encourages the bully to move onto simpler targets. However, the stereotype of this is actually not all that common.

Usually, one good arse-kicking deserves another. It turns from that into a violent reprisal, and before you know it, you have playground gang wars. Sure, showing you are willing to defend yourself is often better than sitting and copping it. Yet to think it's a sure-fire way of stopping the situation, it's anything but that.

Athon

No figures. Just based on personal experiences of myself and of friends. I stand by my statement.

Think about it from the bully's perspective. He can bully 99 kids and get away with it, or he can attempt to bully 1 kid and get his ass kicked again. Which would he choose? I know of very few people who would pick the second option.

[John Bentley]

No figures. Just based on personal experiences of myself and of friends. I stand by my statement.

Think about it from the bully's perspective. He can bully 99 kids and get away with it, or he can attempt to bully 1 kid and get his ass kicked again. Which would he choose? I know of very few people who would pick the second option.

You are of course assuming that my kid can whoop the other kid. I'm not so sure about that. The other kid has obviously got experience in whooping butt, as well as a very violent nature. My kid has neither. What do you think would happen if my kid stood up to him and my kid got his butt beat? How much worse would it be then?

Also, you assume the other kid would back off when violently confronted. I'm also not so sure about that. This kid would almost surely just escalate the violence from hands and fists to sticks and stones. He has done this in the past with other kids. He's the type that would conceivably bring his dad's gun or a knife to school and settle it right there. No, I don't know if his dad owns guns, but my point is that the time when I used to keep bullies away from me and my friends by beating the cr@p out of them behind the school house is long gone. At least around where I live, you take your life in your hands every time you have an argument. If you can get it, read the Mobile, AL paper online sometime. See how many people are shot or stabbed in arguments around here.

Is this cowardly? Maybe. I certainly don't follow my own advice when people get up in my face, but my kid is a different story. I'm not about to tell him to take on some psycho toe to toe nowadays.

[athon]

No figures. Just based on personal experiences of myself and of friends. I stand by my statement.

Think about it from the bully's perspective. He can bully 99 kids and get away with it, or he can attempt to bully 1 kid and get his ass kicked again. Which would he choose? I know of very few people who would pick the second option.

Bullying is not typically the same thing as pecking order interactions, though. In a 'normal' situation, a kid will pick on somebody until they demonstrate some response that the antagonist doesn't feel comfortable with. They then turn to somebody else, or change their behaviour.

I've seen situations where I've broken up a playground fight, where the bully has been injured in some way, only to hear that the victim was attacked in a revenge assault that very afternoon. Sure, you or I might have left it at that, but then I'm safely assuming that neither you nor I fit into the category of bullying that we're discussing here. Bullies do not behave in a manner that most people follow.

Athon

[clarsct]

Aside from which, the bully moves on to another person.

Doesn't seem like much of a solution.

I have done the 'bully showdown' before, but it was a group of us. We confronted him together. Every time he would go after one of us, a different person went after him.
Not the best way, maybe.
We didn't kick him half to death or anything like that, we used violence to prevent HIM from using violence. We backed off when he did.

And it didn't matter who he was bullying, either. We stepped in.

He stopped the behavior, and eventually he moved out of our school district(don't know how coincidental this is)

There were about 4 of us that had enough of this jackass, and we took action where it seemed the school would not. There were some retaliations, but together we could handle them.

This had been one of the only times I've seen it work. Looking back, we did something relatively smart, for a bunch of eighth graders, we let him know that that behavior was not acceptable and would NOT have his desired result.

I'm not sure we changed the guy on an internal scale, but it seems to me it could have, had he not moved away. It took a group of people and a school who turned a blind eye to our activities because they KNEW the kid was a bully. (Don't ask why it fell to us to handle the situation!!)

I know this has been rambling a bit, but I think getting a group of people involved may be your only shot at this. Other parents, the school, et cetera. Our bully wasn't nearly as bad as this kid sounds like. It seems that it takes a group of people, either way.


Just another few cents worth.

[Chris Haynes]

.....

I know this has been rambling a bit, but I think getting a group of people involved may be your only shot at this. Other parents, the school, et cetera. Our bully wasn't nearly as bad as this kid sounds like. It seems that it takes a group of people, either way.


Just another few cents worth.

Exactly... the group of people should include a child psychiatrist because that kind of behavior is not exactly normal.