Lisa Williams New show same Stichk

[SRW]

Gotta love On Demand, I can watch a show at anytime. So after the Today Show did a Fluff Piece on Lisa Wild Hair Williams, I was able to watch her show. She is on Lifetime, and does cold readings and ghost hunting. She even has a tin foil hat to keep the dead from bothering her when she does not want to pretend to talk to them.

When The Today Show did the tease for her appearance, I was hoping it was going to be a setup and they were going to expose her as a fake. No such luck. And she is such an easy target, not even and very good cold reader.

She did bring closure to an Iraq war widow sick sick sick.

[reasonmusic]

SRW, how do you explain her ability to uncover details she could not have known about that Marine? Are you saying she is a hoax? And if so, shouldn't you try and find proof of that first before calling closure to a widow sick? Just wanted to comment...

[Minarvia]

I think when she walks away with Randi's million dollars she can be said to have been proven genuine. I predict that she can't and won't.

[SRW]

SR, how do you explain her ability to uncover details she could not have known about that Marine? Are you saying she is a hoax? And if so, shouldn't you try and find proof of that first before calling closure to a widow sick? Just wanted to comment...


Yes I am jaded, I cannot explain the specifies method she uses to get her answers, however I have seen people with no psychic ability do the same thing. If she is the real deal set her take the jref challenge, for her to convince me I would need to see some real ability that is demonstrable not fake.

[Garrette]

SRW, how do you explain her ability to uncover details she could not have known about that Marine? Are you saying she is a hoax? And if so, shouldn't you try and find proof of that first before calling closure to a widow sick? Just wanted to comment...No, you have it backwards. Since others can do the same thing without psychic ability, it is up to her to show she is real.

You make a positive claim here, though: "details she could not have known."

How do you know she could not have known them?

[shanek]

Just look at her commercial. At one point, she asks a guy, "Who's David?" and his jaw drops. So he's thinking, "Hey! She knew my father's/grandfather's/uncle's/whoever's name was David!"

No, she didn't--SHE ASKED YOU WHO DAVID WAS!!!

Same old cold reading crap.

[Minarvia]

Yeah, same old cold reading crap is right. But I do like her hair! I guess the network hopes her "hipness" (does that make sense?) will catch hold of viewers. I saw one show. Bleh. Her show, that is, not her funky hair!

[reasonmusic]

SRW, You said you have seen people with NO psychic ability do this same thing? How in the hell does that work? If you're saying they find out info beforehand, then that doesn't count. Lifetime makes a disclaimer about no one having prior knowledge before the taping of the show. You're saying she is guilty until proven innocent, right? She is not legit until she comes to James for his money?

[shanek]

SRW, You said you have seen people with NO psychic ability do this same thing? How in the hell does that work? If you're saying they find out info beforehand, then that doesn't count. Lifetime makes a disclaimer about no one having prior knowledge before the taping of the show.

She doesn't need to find out information beforehand. Read up on Cold Reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

I gave an example of this above, where a question about someone was turned around in the person's mind to mean that she had given the information, not been given.

People who have done this without any psychic abilities whatsoever include Mark Edward, Banachek, and even the Amaz!ng Randi himself.

[fuelair]

SRW, You said you have seen people with NO psychic ability do this same thing? How in the hell does that work? If you're saying they find out info beforehand, then that doesn't count. Lifetime makes a disclaimer about no one having prior knowledge before the taping of the show. You're saying she is guilty until proven innocent, right? She is not legit until she comes to James for his money? (Ooh, a disclaimer from Lifetime - with a world wide reputation for journalistic integrity well above that of , say, the New York Times - well it must be true then.....NOT!)
Very good, you finally figured it out. Feel free to search the many threads here explaining this to incompetants/wanna believers. Yes, if someone \claims they can talk to the dead, read minds, bend spoons, got picked up by a flying saucer, can change lead into golld (heh-heh slipped that one in to make a point - it can be done - just need a decent accellerator and some lead.............................and an awful lot of money - and you can knock a few protons off the lead, making it gold. You lose money -big time- but you do make gold out of lead. For lots more money you can turn lead to silver!!). Key is, (try to stop me if you have heard this one - if not follow it closely) extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
That translates as "just saying it doesn't make it true", "the fact that some of us can't duplicate it doesn't mean none of us can", and "you make the claim, you gotta prove it - and demonstrating it in uncontrolled conditions isn't doing it."

[Minarvia]

These people take money for their supposed abilities. Since they also tend to take a LOT of money I do believe they should furnish proof of their professed abilities. Unfortunately, believers do not ask for any reliable proof before paying these people money they sometimes can't easily afford. And the networks and the media just promote and promote and promote these people. That is very sad, I believe. And the trend just seems to be growing.

[reasonmusic]

SRW

I came to this forum with an open mind. I am truly considering your perspective, but I feel your sarcasm toward me in reference to the lifetime disclaimer makes me want to think less of you. I am sure you have seen a lot of falsehood in regards to the psychic world. But I do not think this will help your cause with newcomers. On the contrary, I wonder that it gives skeptics a bad name.

I will read up on the cold reading info. Thanks.

[shanek]

reasonmusic: you do make a good point. As skeptics, we run into this stuff so often and have to explain it so much we end up feeling like, "What, I have to go through all this AGAIN? Why don't you idiots get it?" and we tend to forget the fact that the person we're talking to may never have been exposed to those arguments before.

Also, I think we need to make it clear that the exasperation we feel is mostly targeted at the scam artists like Lisa Williams, not at people like you. When I saw an ad for Lisa Williams's show, I was livid. I was doubly so when I saw that John Edward is now on We, long after being cancelled from the Sci-Fi channel. But those audiences are hardly as sophisticated (as is evident from the normal programming fare), and so are much less likely to have encountered skeptics or learned about the concepts of skeptical thought.

The first time I saw John Edward, I could immediately tell what he was up to, and I hadn't even heard of cold reading at that point. But that's because I have been educated on critical thinking and knew a bit about how scam artists work. Someone coming into this fresh has trouble because he doesn't know what to look for.

That is where we come in. We should be educators, not agitators. Unfortunately, we're human, so it doesn't always work that way. (And it doesn't help that their dogmatic supporters, "woos" as we call them, keep coming back with the same old arguments over and over again and ignore us whenever we present rebuttals and counterarguments and explanations, and even resort to lying and namecalling...a lot of our frustration is at them as well.)

I guess what I'm saying is, we should understand your position and be patient with you; maybe you could also understand our position and what we've been through, and be patient with us, too.

After all, we're all just humans trying to find out the truth.

[SRW]

SR, You said you have seen people with NO psychic ability do this same thing? How in the hell does that work? If you're saying they find out info beforehand, then that doesn't count. Lifetime makes a disclaimer about no one having prior knowledge before the taping of the show. You're saying she is guilty until pr oven innocent, right? She is not legit until she comes to James for his money?

Look up cold reading as suggested. And there is no way to know if she is legit or not unless, she can do what she says she can, under controlled conditions. Therefor taking the REF challenge would be a good way for her to provide proof.

[RSLancastr]

SRW, You said you have seen people with NO psychic ability do this same thing? How in the hell does that work?As others have mentioned, SRW was talking about the art of Cold Reading.

I see that you have already been given links to some articles on the subject. If you are interested in reading about it in depth, I would recommend Ian Rowland's book "The Full Facts Bok About Cold Reading". It can be purchased on Rowland's web site, www.ianrowland.com.

If you're saying they find out info beforehand, then that doesn't count. Lifetime makes a disclaimer about no one having prior knowledge before the taping of the show.The show is not the place to go for an objective analysis of the show. You need to realize, the show has a vested interest in propping up the woman's purported abilities.

As far as that disclaimer goes: I believe it was "Haunting Evidence", but it was one of the many "psychic-detective" type of shows which had a similar disclaimer which was proven to be factually inaccurate (to put it nicely).

The show featured a "psychic", a "ghost hunter" and a third person (I forget what he supposedly was) which would examine "cold cases" and try to solve them.

The disclaimer in the show stated that none of the three had any prior knowledge of the cases they were investigating, prior to the taping of the shows.

It was subsequently discovered that the "psychic" had had extensive contacts with the families in the cases, sometimes for months and years prior to the taping of the show.

You're saying she is guilty until proven innocent, right? She is not legit until she comes to James for his money?We are saying that until she proves her abilities in a controlled environment (not through anecdotes, not through a TV show which has a vested interest in making you believe in her abilities), we do not believe she is psychic.

When a skeptic hears an extraordinary claim (such as this woman's claim to be "psychic), they adopt a provisional stance of doubt, pending evidence to the contrary.

And this woman's TV show is *not* evidence. To believe the show would be as naive as believing the woman's own press releases.

[shanek]

In fact, I would say that the show is evidence that she is not psychic. The reason why is that it looks exactly like cold reading. A real psychic should be able to perform better than that.

[reasonmusic]

Thanks for that good and honest reply. I am won over for your consideration and you are a credit to skeptics. Although I must admit, of all the people mentioned on this site, for some reason, I am not yet convinced Lisa Williams is a fraud. We'll just have to wait and see, won't we.

[RSLancastr]

Fair enough! :)

[shanek]

Thanks for that good and honest reply. I am won over for your consideration and you are a credit to skeptics. Although I must admit, of all the people mentioned on this site, for some reason, I am not yet convinced Lisa Williams is a fraud. We'll just have to wait and see, won't we.

One thing you might want to try: Videotape or PVR the show, and when you see a segment that you find suitably convincing of her "power," type up the transcript and post it to this thread. You'll find us all to willing to dissect it and point out the cold reading involved.

[Loss Leader]

I am not yet convinced Lisa Williams is a fraud. We'll just have to wait and see, won't we.

Here's a good article from Bad Psychics about a Lisa Williams show. The author concludes that her tactics do not differ from cold and warm readings.

http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=288

[reasonmusic]

Ok. I am about done with this forum. Here is what I wrote concerning the "Bad Psychics" article (and the reason I wrote it is because I watched that show and got a VERY different perspective. Regardless of whether Lisa Wiliams is true or flase, this episode was unfairly evaulated and transcripted):

Give me a freaking break! That's ALL you have to say about that show? You are nothing short of a coward and you ought to be ashamed of your tacticts. There was a lot more to that show than you wrote about. I don't know who is worse, the fakes you write about or you cowardly skeptics who MUST make anything fake for your insecurity or fear of losing control. Grow up! If you have the guts and want to email me, use reasonmusic@yahoo.com

END QUOTE

[Reno]

Did somebody give her a wedgie or somethin'? Coz her knickers are seriously twisted.

[mist]

Ok. I am about done with this forum. Here is what I wrote concerning the "Bad Psychics" article (and the reason I wrote it is because I watched that show and got a VERY different perspective. Regardless of whether Lisa Wiliams is true or flase, this episode was unfairly evaulated and transcripted):

Give me a freaking break! That's ALL you have to say about that show? You are nothing short of a coward and you ought to be ashamed of your tacticts. There was a lot more to that show than you wrote about. I don't know who is worse, the fakes you write about or you cowardly skeptics who MUST make anything fake for your insecurity or fear of losing control. Grow up! If you have the guts and want to email me, use reasonmusic@yahoo.com

END QUOTE

Well, as you said before, people here have some sort of negativeness towards self proclaimed psychics because of all the pain they've cost. Especially in cases where psychics describe the horrorific way a missing relative has died, which later on turns out to be not like the psychic described at all, or even the relative turns up alive again (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/montel_shawnhornbeck.shtml).

However, many people here including me respect your opinion and would gladly exchange information considering the truthfullness of the ability of psychics in general or this psychic in particular. At least long as you respect the opinion of sceptics too.

Personally I don't disclude the possibility some psychics indeed have powers, but I am somewhat unmystified by the many psychics who don't.

With Regards,
Mist

[superbu]

I've been watching Lisa Williams's show, and I have to say I've noticed something: the people she gives the most specific information to are people that meet with her in private, where the meeing was prearranged, presumably waivers signed, etc., long before it was ever filmed. But the people she just walks up to on the street... the readings aren't as specific.

So in other words, for those private, prearranged readings, she and/or the show's producers know the client's name, address, phone number (and, if the guest is getting paid for their appearance on the show, their Social Security number), and have probably several weeks to find out ANYTHING they can about this person -- search online for obituaries, for example. ("So-and-so is survived by three daughters, Sarah, Jessica, and Linda.") Once you know a person's name and address, hello -- $40 for a background check, listing every address they've ever lived at, any bill collections (such as for a hospital), etc., etc.

Add all that to good cold reading technique, and, well... I'm not impressed.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Lifetime makes a disclaimer about no one having prior knowledge before the taping of the show.

Another factor to consider is that even if the disclaimer is to be trusted (and other posts would suggest not) it is still a taped and presumably edited show. There may have been umpteen cold questions prior to the shown segment to elicit information that is then pre-packaged and then fed back.

There's a good P&T Bullpwp episode about this with an extremely impressive reading that falls completely apart when you see the earlier segments but that still impressed those there at the time as they are not watching for the technique. James Randi did a similar exercise on the British show Psychic Investigator where someone recorded a session with a medium and then, without listening back to it, gave their assessment. They had been very impressed at the reading and asserted several facts that the medium could not possibly know. Every one was shown by the transcript to have been given or inferred to the medium earlier on in the conversation.

[Ouisch]

Here's a transcript of one part of a Lisa Williams reading I took down from her Lifetime show. It's typed as verbatim as I could get it, faulty grammar and all. Lisa is doing the reading in a woman's home. I've highlighted the sitter's answers in blue. The portions listed as "side interview" are segments of the woman telling parts of her story as an aside (not with Lisa, but to the camera). I would like the debunkers here to read through and point out any cold reading techniques Lisa is using. I can spot a few, such as she seems to ask questions more than make statements, but I'd love to get some "professional" insight.


Do you want to know everything?

Yes.

Has your mom passed?

Yes.

(talking to spirit) Hello mum!... She’s saying that sometimes she could, you know, be quite blunt, all right, but it’s as though she also had a very fun side to her. A real fun side. Oh, she just said “I laugh and joke with the rest of them.” What your mother’s just showed me is that there are a lot of angels protecting you. She keeps showing me a lot of angels. Why does she keep telling me that the baby’s in spirit? (Note: the sitter had given Lisa a baby blanket as the “personal object” to hold onto during the reading.)


My baby?

Your baby’s in spirit, does that make any sense?

Would that be because he’s passed over?

OK, because your baby’s in spirit, that’s what she keeps telling me, and she’s also telling me that there’s been a lot of questions about him. OK? So whether that’s the reason I’m here, I’m not sure, but this is what she keeps showing me. He’s saying “I’ve grown up in spirit,” does that make any sense? “I’ve grown up in spirit.”

(Side interview with sitter: "My son, who was killed, was my baby and I always called him my baby." )

He keeps talking about walking…was he walking along side the road?

Yes he was.

Because he keeps acknowledging the walking by the side of the road…I don’t know whether it was on the way home from school…

Yes.

Because I just feel like I’ve got study or books or I feel like there’s an element of study that’s been part of me that day. (Talks to spirit: "You don’t have to give me the pain.") <gestures to forehead> This is where he’s giving me the pain. Was this a car accident?

Mm-hmm.

Because I keep feeling like a car accident and I think this is where I got my head pain coming from…

(Side interview: "He was killed after getting hit by a car, after a friend crossed the street.")

He’s saying there were good-byes. I don’t know whether that means anything to you, but there were good-byes.

Yes.

You talk to him all the time.

Yes.

He keeps showing me like this vigil, I don’t know if you often have a ceremony for him, or you light candles or you do something in your own way for him….this is what he keeps showing me.

[Big Les]

Well the main thing is that she's either asking outright questions or ambiguously worded statement-questions, and then modifying her response afterward. She's taking risks that the punter won't identify with what she's saying, but they are small and calculated risks.

Had the punter given different answers, Williams would have responded differently. E.g. "Was this a car accident?". She got a hit (a good chance guess) but if it had been something else, she could still have scored a partial hit by, say, focussing on another traumatic form of accident and blaming the spirit or herself for misunderstanding. Or giving the "car" part some other significance. There are any number of ways around it, and the lamest sounding bits will always be recut or edited out entirely in a TV production.

[sthomson]

One part that struck me:

She keeps showing me a lot of angels. Why does she keep telling me that the baby’s in spirit? (Note: the sitter had given Lisa a baby blanket as the “personal object” to hold onto during the reading.)

My baby?

Your baby’s in spirit, does that make any sense?

Would that be because he’s passed over?

OK, because your baby’s in spirit, that’s what she keeps telling me

Emphasis mine. Notice how Williams starts by saying "The baby's in spirit", while holding a baby blanket. The sitter indicates that she thinks it's HER baby, at which point the medium starts saying, "YOUR baby". Of course, the sitter will only remember that Williams seemed to know about "her baby" (who wasn't a baby at the time of his death).

In the next line, Williams says, "Does that make any sense?" at which point the sitter indicates that her child has passed on. The sitter told Williams everything she needed to know at the beginning of the reading: The blanket belonged to the sitter's kid, who had passed on.

[juniper_ann]

reasonmusic: you do make a good point. As skeptics, we run into this stuff so often and have to explain it so much we end up feeling like, "What, I have to go through all this AGAIN? Why don't you idiots get it?" and we tend to forget the fact that the person we're talking to may never have been exposed to those arguments before.

Also, I think we need to make it clear that the exasperation we feel is mostly targeted at the scam artists like Lisa Williams, not at people like you. When I saw an ad for Lisa Williams's show, I was livid. I was doubly so when I saw that John Edward is now on We, long after being cancelled from the Sci-Fi channel. But those audiences are hardly as sophisticated (as is evident from the normal programming fare), and so are much less likely to have encountered skeptics or learned about the concepts of skeptical thought.

The first time I saw John Edward, I could immediately tell what he was up to, and I hadn't even heard of cold reading at that point. But that's because I have been educated on critical thinking and knew a bit about how scam artists work. Someone coming into this fresh has trouble because he doesn't know what to look for.

That is where we come in. We should be educators, not agitators. Unfortunately, we're human, so it doesn't always work that way. (And it doesn't help that their dogmatic supporters, "woos" as we call them, keep coming back with the same old arguments over and over again and ignore us whenever we present rebuttals and counterarguments and explanations, and even resort to lying and namecalling...a lot of our frustration is at them as well.)

I guess what I'm saying is, we should understand your position and be patient with you; maybe you could also understand our position and what we've been through, and be patient with us, too.

After all, we're all just humans trying to find out the truth.

This is a good point. It would be good to have a stickie for "Psychics." The stickie would consist of an article briefly explaining major concepts this form of woo (cold, warm, and hot reading; current famous psychics), with links to expand on those concepts (like StopSylviaBrown).

Unlike the Evolution & Homeopathy stickies, the Psychic stickie would either consist entirely of one post containing the article (it would be locked), or the first post would be regularly updated to include relevant information from the discussion in the thread following.

Then, instead of getting snippy, we could just post a link and say "Please read this article, and then we'll discuss the psychic you saw."

[T'ai Chi]

Yes I am jaded, I cannot explain the specifies method she uses to get her answers, however I have seen people with no psychic ability do the same thing. If she is the real deal set her take the jref challenge, for her to convince me I would need to see some real ability that is demonstrable not fake.

Wow! SRW encapsulated the new skepticism (ie. psuedoskepticism, ie. heckling) mantras in one concise paragraph. To recap, hecklers are saying

1) im angree!!!
2) I have seen no evidence of X by people who claim X
3) I have seen people do something like X by people who don't claim X
4) by 2) & 3), therefore X doesn't exist
5) these people MUST CONVINCE ME! (see 1)
6) oh yeah, and a challenge by a magician and skeptic club is important for some reason

All the while SRW watched the program, therefore giving the very thing he doubts credibility and ratings. Go figure. :)

[panchov]

That walking by the road thing was very weird. How DO THEY do that? Mere chance? Maybe she heard them talking before the reading or something.

[Tim4848]

"She got a hit (a good chance guess)"

How many good chance guess must she have before she is taken seriously.

[Ouisch]

That walking by the road thing was very weird. How DO THEY do that? Mere chance? Maybe she heard them talking before the reading or something.

I'm guessing that they edited out a large line of questioning before she came up with the walking part, because at first she didn't even know the child was dead or who "the baby" was.

I was doing some browsing and found a post on a blog by a man who had appeared on Lisa's show with his wife. It's interesting to see how much difference there is between his memory of the sitting and what actually happened. He said that the reading lasted about an hour and a half, so since they only showed 10 minutes or so on TV, there was indeed a lot edited out. But certain parts that he recalled were included in the broadcast, but not at all like he described.

For example, on the show Lisa asked the wife if her father spoke English. Wife replied "no." Lisa then said "Because I'm getting Chinese, he's speaking in Chinese..." The man recounting the story, however, was impressed that Lisa "nailed" that her father was speaking Cantonese. (She never specified Cantonese.) He also said that Lisa never "fished" or asked questions, yet if you watch the show that's almost all she did - "Was your father at your wedding? No? Because he's telling me he's sorry he missed it." Things like that. (Oh, and of course the man was amazed that Lisa "nailed" that his father-in-law hadn't come to their wedding. For heaven's sake, she outright asked about that!) :rolleyes:

[RichardR]

This is a good point. It would be good to have a stickie for "Psychics." The stickie would consist of an article briefly explaining major concepts this form of woo (cold, warm, and hot reading; current famous psychics)...
Or a Bingo Card (http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2007/11/john-edward-jam.html)?

Scroll down for explanations of the cold reading techniques.

[panchov]

Or a Bingo Card (http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2007/11/john-edward-jam.html)?

Scroll down for explanations of the cold reading techniques.

I scrolled down and read this:

VAN PRAAGH: Did she have a toy that she loved so much, she nearly wore it out?
CALLER: Yes! She had a stuffed Pink Panther that she carried with her everywhere!
VAN PRAAGH: Because she's showing me a Pink Panther.


That is so sick! I mentioned before that I once took a three day class with him, but I still can't figure out if he knows how false and manipulative he is. Sometimes during the class I would think he did and sometimes I would think he didn't.

[Big Les]

That's actually a really good short standalone introduction for anyone that hasn't come across the technique before. Needless to say, everyone has a favourite toy as a child; the punter comes up with the significance to them, and the reader reads it back to them. It looks terrible on paper, but in the delivery and the moment, with imperfect recall, it's an incredible insight into and validation of, his "skills".

And yes, it's tough to tell, isn't it, whether he or any of the others recognise that they are deceivers. Some must, others will compartmentalise and rationalise away what they, deep down, will know is deception. I think only a very few (mostly less high profile than this guy) will be unaware that they are "digging" for answers, and will put down their skill at gleaning info to some sort of intuition/psychic power.

[SRW]

Wow! SRW encapsulated the new skepticism (ie. psuedoskepticism, ie. heckling) mantras in one concise paragraph. To recap, hecklers are saying

1) im angree!!!
2) I have seen no evidence of X by people who claim X
3) I have seen people do something like X by people who don't claim X
4) by 2) & 3), therefore X doesn't exist
5) these people MUST CONVINCE ME! (see 1)
6) oh yeah, and a challenge by a magician and skeptic club is important for some reason

All the while SRW watched the program, therefore giving the very thing he doubts credibility and ratings. Go figure. :)

So which of Lisa's performances are you defending? Or could it be, you have a problem with anyone but a true believer watching her show?

[lucyhicks1980]

hello everyone. i never write in forums but felt i had to when i read the comments in this one. i am from a small town in england called redditch (lisa,s home town) i have been very fortunate to have had a personal reading off lisa before she moved to america. all i can say is there is no way in this world she is a fake! i went in to see her feeling skeptical but the things she knew soon changed my mind. she knew every tiny detail about things which id been thro (i.e. my dad passing away) right down to knowing how i put a photo of him and my son in the coffin. she even described the picture! this was something i hadent shared with anyone before. i could give you so many examples but id be here all day. everything she predicted for my future up until this point has also happened. infact i listened to my cd recording of the reading just the other day (4 years on) and was amazed! i came across this forum as i was trying to find out when lisa is returning home. and i was upset to read the comments. i understand everyone is entitled to an opinion etc however i dont think you can brand someone a fake till you have experienced there gift first hand. one more point is that i got my appointment with lisa last minute. i rang expecting to be told there was a 3 month wait however her husband informed me that her next appointment had cancelled so there i was a few minutes later driving to see her. my point been there is no way in a couple of mins (20 max) could they have researched anything about me when they only knew my first name. thanks for reading, kind regards lucy (redditch worcs england)

[Zep]

hello everyone. i never write in forums but felt i had to when i read the comments in this one. i am from a small town in england called redditch (lisa,s home town) i have been very fortunate to have had a personal reading off lisa before she moved to america. all i can say is there is no way in this world she is a fake! i went in to see her feeling skeptical but the things she knew soon changed my mind. she knew every tiny detail about things which id been thro (i.e. my dad passing away) right down to knowing how i put a photo of him and my son in the coffin. she even described the picture! this was something i hadent shared with anyone before. i could give you so many examples but id be here all day. everything she predicted for my future up until this point has also happened. infact i listened to my cd recording of the reading just the other day (4 years on) and was amazed! i came across this forum as i was trying to find out when lisa is returning home. and i was upset to read the comments. i understand everyone is entitled to an opinion etc however i dont think you can brand someone a fake till you have experienced there gift first hand. one more point is that i got my appointment with lisa last minute. i rang expecting to be told there was a 3 month wait however her husband informed me that her next appointment had cancelled so there i was a few minutes later driving to see her. my point been there is no way in a couple of mins (20 max) could they have researched anything about me when they only knew my first name. thanks for reading, kind regards lucy (redditch worcs england)Hi and welcome!
Some questions for you to consider:

1) Did you book the reading in advance over the phone and give her your name?

2) Did you pay for the reading in advance with a credit card?

3) Care to share your reading with us here for analysis?

cheers
Z

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

It's a common theme for psychics to claim they have a 3 or 4 month waiting list. It is somehow supposed to display how genuine they are.

As you discovered, this is not really the case, and they will often take any appointment they can get.

[fuelair]

hello everyone. i never write in forums but felt i had to when i read the comments in this one. i am from a small town in england called redditch (lisa,s home town) i have been very fortunate to have had a personal reading off lisa before she moved to america. all i can say is there is no way in this world she is a fake! i went in to see her feeling skeptical but the things she knew soon changed my mind. she knew every tiny detail about things which id been thro (i.e. my dad passing away) right down to knowing how i put a photo of him and my son in the coffin. she even described the picture! this was something i hadent shared with anyone before. i could give you so many examples but id be here all day. everything she predicted for my future up until this point has also happened. infact i listened to my cd recording of the reading just the other day (4 years on) and was amazed! i came across this forum as i was trying to find out when lisa is returning home. and i was upset to read the comments. i understand everyone is entitled to an opinion etc however i dont think you can brand someone a fake till you have experienced there gift first hand. one more point is that i got my appointment with lisa last minute. i rang expecting to be told there was a 3 month wait however her husband informed me that her next appointment had cancelled so there i was a few minutes later driving to see her. my point been there is no way in a couple of mins (20 max) could they have researched anything about me when they only knew my first name. thanks for reading, kind regards lucy (redditch worcs england)With no offense, you are not a research specialist. This summer I was given information by a specialist (supposedly) who was in my home checking his specialty. I did not trust all his statements and excused myself when he finished his them and went b. My computer was on at the time, a bit over thirty seconds later I had proof that he was wrong (and, no, I went through a search engine - I did not already have anything on the topic up on the computer). If you are good at research and know your resources, it takes very little time to find out a lot of stuff - even personal if you do that a lot and use certain paid services.

[Big Les]

Lucy - welcome. We often find that what people remember isn't quite what was said at the time. Whenever transcripts or recordings are made available, it's possible to point to instances of cold reading (statements and clever questions that let a psychic make it seem like they already knew things). Most likely that is what happened with you, but with today's internet tools it's really not hard to turn up personal details - aka "hot" reading. Both tools make for a really convincing reading. Do some googling on the subject and try to remember what she actually said to you, and more importantly, how you responded. If you confirmed statements (even just yes/no) from which she went on to make more statements, she was basically pumping you for info in a subtle way.

What makes cold reading work is making the client rack their brains for a possible connection with what's being said. The trick is to make it seem specific, but actually have different ways in which it could be relavent. You can then narrow things down from there to something very specific, and any misses are either modified or put down to spirit communication failures (!).

Derren Brown's one magician who demonstrates the technique - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btP_vy5cQq4

[SRW]

hello everyone. i never write in forums but felt i had to when i read the comments in this one. i am from a small town in england called redditch (lisa,s home town) i have been very fortunate to have had a personal reading off lisa before she moved to america. all i can say is there is no way in this world she is a fake! i went in to see her feeling skeptical but the things she knew soon changed my mind. she knew every tiny detail about things which id been thro (i.e. my dad passing away) right down to knowing how i put a photo of him and my son in the coffin. she even described the picture! this was something i hadent shared with anyone before. i could give you so many examples but id be here all day. SNIP

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

You said that when you went to see Lisa you were skeptical. Well you had good reason to be, after all her claim is extraordinarily uncommon, being able to see the future and talk to the dead. So in your skeptical state, prior to seeing her, you must have thought there were two possibilities:

A. She talks to dead people

B. She is a fraud who makes a living out of fooling people into believing she talks to dead people.

It is unfortunate that you found this thread after you had your session with Lisa. After all you are the person who(whom?) we are trying to reach. Had you read this thread prior to your session with Lisa you would not only been skeptical but would have had an understanding of what was going on.

Hopefully you will have a chance to read up a bit on cold/hot reading, and try to review you session given this new knowledge.

Good luck and do not be afraid to ask questions. You will find many people here more than willing to explain.

[Drudgewire]

She even has a tin foil hat to keep the dead from bothering her when she does not want to pretend to talk to them.

http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/shutupdedpeepal.jpg

[ExMinister]

Er, a tin foil hat? To keep out the voices of the dead? Is there some woo quantum-type pseudo-physics explanation for this that I missed?

[ExMinister]

hello everyone. i never write in forums but felt i had to when i read the comments in this one. i am from a small town in england called redditch (lisa,s home town) i have been very fortunate to have had a personal reading off lisa before she moved to america. all i can say is there is no way in this world she is a fake! i went in to see her feeling skeptical but the things she knew soon changed my mind. she knew every tiny detail about things which id been thro (i.e. my dad passing away) right down to knowing how i put a photo of him and my son in the coffin. she even described the picture! this was something i hadent shared with anyone before. i could give you so many examples but id be here all day. everything she predicted for my future up until this point has also happened. infact i listened to my cd recording of the reading just the other day (4 years on) and was amazed! i came across this forum as i was trying to find out when lisa is returning home. and i was upset to read the comments. i understand everyone is entitled to an opinion etc however i dont think you can brand someone a fake till you have experienced there gift first hand. one more point is that i got my appointment with lisa last minute. i rang expecting to be told there was a 3 month wait however her husband informed me that her next appointment had cancelled so there i was a few minutes later driving to see her. my point been there is no way in a couple of mins (20 max) could they have researched anything about me when they only knew my first name. thanks for reading, kind regards lucy (redditch worcs england)

Lucy, just for the sake of curiosity, try making a list of how many statements Lisa made that were vague (could easily apply to lots of people) or simply wrong, versus how many were exactly correct. Out of those that were correct (and couldn't apply to pretty much anyone), check to see if you in any way may have given her information based on the wording of your question, your age or appearance, or your previous responses. I've gone back through past psychic readings I've had, and I find it interesting to note that we tend to not to notice the great number of statements they make that are not really true and focus on the occasional statement that seems accurate. When you really analyze the reading and look at the percentages, it's not nearly so impressive.

[fuelair]

Consider transcribing the cd for us to evaluate.

[lucyhicks1980]

hi yes i booked over the phone but only 20 mins before hand. her husband only took my first name and i paid in cash after the reading. she is very well known in the redditch area and anyone ive spoken too has always had to wait months to see her. i have no problems with sharing my reading. as im new to this forum stuff i have no idea how to upload it etc. so any help would be great

[reasonmusic]

Dear Lucy... I am sorry you have to put up with this kind of denial from guys like Big Les or Darren or whoever. I believe you. I really do. These fools are so bent on all of it being false, now they could never accept any of it being true without losing too much face! Ironic; they seem to have just as much of an industry going as they claim most "psychics" do.

I mean, who in the heck is going to find out on the web in 20 minutes that you put a picture like that in your Dad's coffin? And you have a CD of it, too?!!

What fools. My apologies. I am sick of this foundation forum anyway. It does nothing but tear down.

Convert your CD to mp3 in itunes and then it can be uploaded much easier. If you would like, I am an pro audio editor and I can split the tracks fro you, etc and get you online. Let me know --- I'll even let a "skeptic" help me for accountability. -A

[schlitt]

Reasonmusic, I understand that it is hard to hear (or read as the case may be here) that a belief you want to be true is false. But try and leave emotion and desire out of it for a second.

Think about the circumstances which lead you to be here.

Before coming here, you had no idea about cold reading. Without the knowledge of how these frauds do there thing, how can you feel as if you were able to make a sound judgement? A magicians trick is pretty confusing until you realise how it was done.
So you are on the right track, trying to figure out how it is done.

Does it strike you as odd that most people who know spiritualist mediums are a frauds, have knowledge of cold reading techniques, and that most believers have no idea what cold reading is?

Most believers also have no idea that many people have dedicated their lives to finding out if psychic powers exist, and all of the respected studies show that psychic powers do not exist. (see Susan Blackmores work for an example)

psychic powers are a very appealing thing to believe in, and a lot of people are happy to believe, just out of desire alone. But there are those who want to see good evidence before they believe, and unfortunately there is not a shred of evidence for psychic powers. Every one of these types of people can be shown to be using cold reading techniques. If they really were psychic, they would not have to resort to these techniques, and skeptics would not be able to fault them.

When a person who is educated in cold reading watches someone like Lisa williams, it is immediately apparent what she is doing.

Unfortunately what most explanations of cold reading fail to give, is just how important human nature, desire, and the fallibility of memory are to cold reading.

A typical example might be something like this.

A middle aged woman is being read.

Fraud: "I am seeing the presence of an older male around you."
Client: "YES!"
Fraud: "This is someone who passed over suddenly."
Client: "YES, YES!"
Fraud: and he is telling me he was close to you.
Client: "Yes! My father died of a heart attack!"

Unfortunately what will happen when the client remembers the reading, or tells others about it, she will remember the fraud as saying:
"I see your father, who died of a heart attack standing behind you".
Which is not at all what she said originally, the client actually provded that information.

If people are un-educated in human behaviour, and cold reading techniques when it comes to these matters, they are incredibly easy to fool.

If you are really interested in finding out the truth, see if you can find a copy of the Derren Brown show "messiah", if you want to see an excellent example of cold reading. (much more accurate than Lisa Williams, yet Derren admits he is not psychic) And see if you can get your hands on a copy of Ian Rowlands book "The full facts book of cold reading".

[lucyhicks1980]

reasonmusic......thank you thats very kind. i completely agree with you. im certainly no longer a skeptic im a believer without a doubt. if you would like to hear the reading ill have ago at converting it. at the moment its just a windows media audio file.

[lucyhicks1980]

schlitt
can i just say at no point did i tell her about my dad she told me! i purposely didnt give anything away. and also at the time i was only 23 so you wouldnt really look at me and guess my dad had died.

[schlitt]

schlitt
can i just say at no point did i tell her about my dad she told me! i purposely didnt give anything away. and also at the time i was only 23 so you wouldnt really look at me and guess my dad had died.

Do you have a tape of the reading?

I would bet that she did not blatantly say "Your father died", before you provided some feedback, there was likely some "i am seeing a male figure, possibly a relative" type banter first.

You have to keep in mind that people doing these readings will have lost someone, middle aged men (the father of a 23 year old), have among the highest mortality rates.

If you are willing to share your reading, i would be more than happy to give you an analysis from a cold reading perspective. (not that i am an expert however)

[lucyhicks1980]

she told me he was there. i DIDNT even answer and she went on to talk about it. i think it would be far easier if i upload the reading, however i cant see any kind of upload tool on this website.

[schlitt]

she told me he was there. i DIDNT even answer and she went on to talk about it. i think it would be far easier if i upload the reading, however i cant see any kind of upload tool on this website.

Well i cannot really comment without hearing the reading. There could be any number of things that were revealed to her, unwittingly before she said "your father is here", that you may not realise. It is unlikely she just straight away came out with that as the very first thing that was said. There are a number of outs, if she did boldly guess this, and it was untrue however, "he is here in spirit" etc, "his love is surrounding you" etc. It is however the most likely guess for a 23 Year old female (father/grandfather having died) keeping in mind that she already knows you have lost someone, hence why you are having a reading.
Examining the reading from a critical perspective is the only way to know for sure.

[lucyhicks1980]

it was the first thing she said. apart from hello take a seat! she turned the recording equipment on and came straight out with it. i didnt answer at all. i was very aware that some people are fakes so made sure i gave nothing away. its a shame that the fakes out there cloud the judgement of people. as soon as im able to upload the reading i will. its ready and waiting

[schlitt]

it was the first thing she said. apart from hello take a seat! she turned the recording equipment on and came straight out with it. i didnt answer at all. i was very aware that some people are fakes so made sure i gave nothing away. its a shame that the fakes out there cloud the judgement of people. as soon as im able to upload the reading i will. its ready and waiting

OK, even if this was the first thing she said, without prior contact, this could have been for a number of reasons. as i said, she will always have outs, and it is also the most likely guess for a 23 year old female. here is why;

-You are there for a reading - this indicated you have lost someone.

-You are mid 20's - This means your parents are middle aged.

-People only tend to get reading when people who are close pass away. ( usually people will not go for a relative such as an uncles/aunt or a not so close friend, it is usually a parent or spouse, or close friend)

-Mortality rate is high for middle aged men (heart disease or cancer being the most likely), and it is likely you are having the reading for a father, as you may not bother for a grandfather, who you are less likely to be super close to.


if your description is correct, it is suprising she was so bold in the guess with no prior fishing, but not unheard of. And it is not suprising that she was correct, as this is the guess that most cold readers would make for a 23 year old female client, as it statistically has the best chance of being correct.

Tell me, have you educated yourself in cold reading techniques? were you aware of cold reading when you had the reading?

it was the first thing she said. apart from hello take a seat! she turned the recording equipment on and came straight out with it. i didnt answer at all. i was very aware that some people are fakes so made sure i gave nothing away.


What was the exact wording that she used when she said it?

You may not have answered verbally, but there would have probably been very obvious clues as to your reaction.

[Garrette]

Just to add to what schlitt is saying--all of which is correct, by the way:

One must consider several methods. It is the rare psychic indeed who relies on one method. (Sylvia Browne apparently relies on one; it's called the Make crap up on the spot, watch people fall for it, and pan away from the ones who don't method).

Cold reading is the one most discussed here, but is not the only one practiced. Nor does it rely simply on standard guesses. It is a practiced art that improves with practice and eventually evolves into warm reading which is really picking up on cues and clues that the sitter is unaware are present. Hot reading is the "looking up on the internet" type of cheating, and Lucyhicks' description of this experience does not rule it out. The hot reading need not occur solely before the reading starts. Psychics have assistants/accomplices who can do research while the sitter is with the medium and who can feed discovered information during the reading.

Did this happen with lucyhicks? I've no idea, but it must be positively ruled out to substantiate the claim that Lisa Williams is legitimate; it is not the burden of the skeptic to positively rule it in.

Another thing too often forgotten is the statistical game. By that I mean that Lisa could make up one or two or three incredible guesses for each sitter and be wrong on all of them without it counting against her. But if she happens to get lucky with one, that one is absolutely convinced and becomes a great PR tool.

This can't be overstated. Lisa Williams did not "read" Lucyhicks in a vacuum, with agreement beforehand that this would be the reading that counted towards determining her legitimacy. She performs hundreds or thousands of such readings, and we hear about those fortunate few who get the miraculous hit.

Before this gets dismissed as grasping for straws, find a few magician friends (the standard kind of magician--card tricks and such) and ask them for their one impossible performance. I've got one, and I rarely perform. I planned a card trick, handed the deck to the spectator, had him shuffle to his heart's content and deal the top four cards face down on the table. He turned them over. It was the four aces.

Ta da! Miracle trick. I ended it there and walked away. He was dumbfounded. I refuse, however, to repeat the trick. The reason is that I got lucky. That wasn't the trick; I planned on something much longer and far more mundane, but I'm smart enough to capitalize when it benefits me.

Ah, well. I've rambled too long.

Lucyhicks, you seem to be both sincere in your belief and honest in portraying what you remember as happening. Kudos to you.

I'll make a deal with you: I'll remain open to the possibility that your reading cannot be explained via normal means if you remain open to the possibility that it can.

[lucyhicks1980]

garrette.
can i just say lisa did my reading in her own home within 20 mins of me booking, she had no assistants working for her etc. no office nothing. there is no way she could have found on the internent that i put a picture of my dad and son in the coffin. im a very open minded person and i think its a shame that some people dont have the ability to believe the unexplained. i do however respect everybody has different beliefs and entitled to there own opinion, and would never critise them for doing so.

[Nursefoxfire]

double post

[Nursefoxfire]

i am from a small town in england called redditch (lisa,s home town)

No one thus far has mentioned this pertinent bit of info, so I thought I'd throw it out there. It's quite possible that Lisa already knew quite a bit about Lucy and her family, especially coming from a small-town environment.

Even if Lisa no longer lived there, but had moved on to "the big city", I'm sure her family is there and could easily have filled her in on tragic events in the town ("Did you hear? Poor Lucy's dad passed away. He was so young, too! Bob down at the funeral home saw her crying as she tucked a photo of her dad and her son in the casket. Very touching...")

However, Lucy says that her trip over to Lisa's home took no more than 20 minutes, so my assumption is that Lisa was still residing locally, and probably knew a lot more about what was going on than Lucy gave her credit for.

[lucyhicks1980]

nursefoxfire...... thanks for your points, id just like to say that redditch has a population of approx 80,000 people. ( ww.birminghamuk.com/wikipedia/Redditch.html ) ive only ever come across a hand full of people that have heard of lisa williams as like i said it was before she made it big!. i can also think of at least 15 funeral directors in redditch let alone all the surrounding districts.

[lucyhicks1980]

nursefoxfire....... also can i just add that i never told anyone, not a single sole about the photo nor did anyone see me put it in his coffin. also it was in a sealed envelope.

[Nursefoxfire]

Lucy, your definition of "small town" and mine widely differ, then! Also, I wanted you to know I'm not trying to poke fun at you, and I'm terribly sorry about the loss of your father, especially with you being so young.

[lucyhicks1980]

nursefoxfire...... ive never been to america so i guess like you say my definition of a small town is different to yours, sorry for any confussion. thank you for those kind words. i think people could argue on this forum forever, over wether or not mediums are real or fake, or what does come next but none of us will really know the answer till its our time to pass over or away or whatever it is that happens.

[imagineNoReligion]

Just look at her commercial. At one point, she asks a guy, "Who's David?" and his jaw drops. So he's thinking, "Hey! She knew my father's/grandfather's/uncle's/whoever's name was David!"

No, she didn't--SHE ASKED YOU WHO DAVID WAS!!!

Same old cold reading crap.

Yeah, I haven't seen that particular clip, but I find it amazing that people who buy into this, don't realize that most of the questions asked by mediums, are directed to the audience and not to the spirits themselves. In fact, the spirit world doesn't really know very much at all. I mean, how exactly does this conversation with the spirit world go?

Spirit1: Well someone in the audience knows or has known someone who's name started with a "J"?

Medium: Um, can you tell me exactly who "J" is and how they are related?

Spirit1: Are you kidding? Do you think I'm psychic? Ask the audience.


(Yes, I know they are cold reading and not talking to spirits)

[schlitt]

im a very open minded person


How so? what exactly are you open to?
How much reading have you done on cold reading techniques?
Have much reading have you done on human memory?(e.g Elizabeth Loftus's works)
Are you aware of the fact that there has never been any type of plausible scientific explanation of how psychic powers would work?
Are you aware that there is no evidence for a soul or life after death, but plenty of evidence that our consciousness lies purely in our brain?

It seems to me you are closing your mind to all other explanations, and simply believing what you want. That is not open mindedness.

If you were really open minded you would try and research alternate explanations that scientists/skeptics/magicians etc give for this phenomenon.
You would learn cold reading, and research techniques that could explain what you lack knowledge about.

take a look at this:
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php




and i think its a shame that some people don't have the ability to believe the unexplained.

The thing is, seemingly accurate psychic readings are perfectly explainable. You just need to be open to learning information that might not be comforting to you.
No one is debating that you had a reading which seemed to be amazing. Fraudulent psychics can do a very good job of providing readings which seem accurate and psychic, if they didn't they would not continue to be around. The unfortunate thing is that the techniques by which they give these readings are not as you would hope. They are not really talking to the dead, they are using techniques which seem as though they are. Only once someone educates themselves in these techniques, will they be able to spot them.

[reasonmusic]

Man, you guys are just plain wacked! Schlitt (or whatever you are), I came here to see what the skeptics said about Lisa Williams, so I think I know what I am looking for. I was optimistic for this forum, but instead all I read is a bunch of judgmental angry and ignorant crap from people so insensitive to anyone who thinks differently than them, you would rather believe in a fake! So write her off all you will... whether she is real or not, she's sure a hell of a lot more interesting than you linear thinking "septics". I'm on the border. You guys are just as bad as who you claim is false.

And if you're that dead set on it, go prove her wrong then! Raise some funds (I'll pitch in!) and go see her yourself before you say you know her. Lucy did.

And don't forget your video camera or audio recorder, because NO ONE will believe you no matter what you say happened (sorry Lucy) unless you have proof other than your own experience.

Fools.

[schlitt]

Man, you guys are just plain wacked! Schlitt (or whatever you are), I came here to see what the skeptics said about Lisa Williams, so I think I know what I am looking for. I was optimistic for this forum, but instead all I read is a bunch of judgmental angry and ignorant crap from people so insensitive to anyone who thinks differently than them, you would rather believe in a fake! So write her off all you will... whether she is real or not, she's sure a hell of a lot more interesting than you linear thinking "septics". I'm on the border. You guys are just as bad as who you claim is false.

And if you're that dead set on it, go prove her wrong then! Raise some funds (I'll pitch in!) and go see her yourself before you say you know her. Lucy did.

And don't forget your video camera or audio recorder, because NO ONE will believe you no matter what you say happened (sorry Lucy) unless you have proof other than your own experience.

Fools.

Where has one of us displayed ignorance?

We have tried to provide you with advice as to how this type of trickery is acheived. You have ignored this advice.
What exactly were you expecting from us?

I have not been insulting or rude, the fact is you do not want to hear what skeptics are saying, which basically amounts to "there is an explanation for why people can do these types of readings, and often they are using cold reading".

If you do not want to research this, and prefer to believe because it satisfies your desire, that is fine.

And im afraid you have it the wrong way around though, as far as proving the claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is not up to a skeptic to prove someone claiming powers is a fraud, it is up to the claimant to prove they have powers.
If Lisa really is psychic, she could apply for the million dollar challenge, silence all skeptics, and change the world. I wonder why she does not. :rolleyes:

Lucy has the chance to provide her reading, and if it is sufficiently amazing, then further investigation will be warranted for sure. However at this point in time many of us are well aware of Lisa Williams techniques from watching her show, and she is a text book cold reader. Until Lucy provides her evidence, can you really blame us for not taking her claims at face value?

The fact is that a good cold reader can fool absolutely anyone, if that person is not wise to their techniques. The key is learning their techniques, which requires time, effort and research that most people never invest in.

Calling us fools, how ironic considering your rant about how mean and horrible we all are. I think you will find that you have been the only person resorting to unfounded insults, which most people would consider foolish, or childish behaviour.

[lucyhicks1980]

schlitt.... like ive said im more than happy to up load my reading when i know how. as all i keep getting is an error message about different security states when i try.

[Garrette]

garrette.
can i just say lisa did my reading in her own homeAs has been pointed out, you are from the same town. Even if she did not know you personally, it is not difficult in this day of pervasive technology to find someone who did.

I am not saying that this did happen. I am saying that--your protests not withstanding--you have not ruled it out. Until it is ruled out, you will find us continuing to raise the possibility. It is this, the raising of possible alternate explanations that defines skepticism and an open mind. It is not an insistence on one's own inability to be hoodwinked that does so.


within 20 mins of me booking,How long do you think a phone call and an internet search take?


she had no assistants working for her etc.You have no way of knowing this.


no office nothing.No office? Where she met you and did the reading was her office. If she worked out of her home, her home was her office.


there is no way she could have found on the internent that i put a picture of my dad and son in the coffin.The possibilities that need to be eliminated before we conclude legitimate psychic ability include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. You are misremembering (this will remain a possibility until we hear the recording)

2. She actually could have found this out (perhaps not on the internet but via other means) by a method you simply have not considered. Ever been fooled by a magic trick?

3. She cold read you

4. The statistical game, as I addressed in my first post. This one is key

5. You are lying (Note that I do not believe this one to be the case as you do seem to be sincere, but open mindedness requires me to consider the possibility)


im a very open minded personPerhaps you are, but in relation to this particular topic you are not displaying the qualities associated with that characteristic.


and i think its a shame that some people dont have the ability to believe the unexplained.How would you respond if I said "I think it's a shame that some people don't have the ability to understand the explanations offered and insist on their own infallibility?"

You assume quite a lot with this statement, lucy. You assume for one thing that none of us have ever believed. Many of us have. I for one was a very strong believer for a long time.

You also assume that this thing actually is unexplained, and you assume it based on a lack of the relevant information. If you care to spend some time here, you will learn a lot of that information. Perhaps after learning it you will retain your belief, but if you do at least it will be an informed belief instead of a blind one.


i do however respect everybody has different beliefs and entitled to there own opinion,As do we. Pointing out where a belief or opinion might be incorrect is not the same as disrespecting it. Further, most folks here (not all by any means, and not even one person all the time--none of us are perfect) avoid "beliefs" as much as possible and prefer to base our conclusions on evidence. Reliable, tested, repeatable, verifiable evidence.


and would never critise them for doing so.A nice ideal but one you have already violated. You have criticised us for "not having the ability" to believe and also for not being open minded. Not a problem. Most of us are thick skinned, and as criticisms go that's a mild one. Personally, I get a chuckle out of a well crafted and witty criticism, even when I'm the target. If the criticism happens to be correct, I shake off the slight bruise to my ego and try to learn from it.

[Garrette]

schlitt.... like ive said im more than happy to up load my reading when i know how. as all i keep getting is an error message about different security states when i try.I wish I were technically savvy enough to help, but sadly I am not.

How about a transcript? It would take effort, and you would need to be careful to include the pauses and the uhs and umms and non-word utterances like small gasps, sighs, chuckles, etc.

[schlitt]

schlitt.... like ive said im more than happy to up load my reading when i know how. as all i keep getting is an error message about different security states when i try.

How big is the file? You could perhaps email it to us.

Can anyone reading help Lucy out with this?

[SRW]

I PM'ed her with my contact info. So I can help her Email it to me or if that does not work possibly Snail mail.

[Akhenaten]

I wish I were technically savvy enough to help, but sadly I am not.

How about a transcript? It would take effort, and you would need to be careful to include the pauses and the uhs and umms and non-word utterances like small gasps, sighs, chuckles, etc.

i don,t know how to say what i want to say about the transcript idea without being offensive but i really think it might end up being a bit difficult to read if you catch my drift .

[Garrette]

i don,t know how to say what i want to say about the transcript idea without being offensive but i really think it might end up being a bit difficult to read if you catch my drift .I can guess, but I'm not sure I'm guessing correctly. No matter.

lucyhicks, I hope you haven't decided to abandon the topic. I think both sides could find it interesting and beneficial to discuss. If you are planning on returning to the thread (say, as soon as you find a way to upload the recording), please drop a quick post saying so.

Thanks.

[Lilith]

No one thus far has mentioned this pertinent bit of info, so I thought I'd throw it out there. It's quite possible that Lisa already knew quite a bit about Lucy and her family, especially coming from a small-town environment.

Even if Lisa no longer lived there, but had moved on to "the big city", I'm sure her family is there and could easily have filled her in on tragic events in the town ("Did you hear? Poor Lucy's dad passed away. He was so young, too! Bob down at the funeral home saw her crying as she tucked a photo of her dad and her son in the casket. Very touching...")



My first thought when I read that Lisa did this reading in her own (large) town was that she had knowledge of Lucy's father's death. How could this be? Well, considering she was making money as a psychic in the local community, she would be wise to cut out all obits and file them away - and when someone called for a reading, she could do a quick search in the files. And since women's names change with marriage, she would also be wise to have a cross-reference system set up. Clients who have had recent family deaths, in the past year or so, are the most likely to request a reading.

About the picture in the coffin? I would have to hear the reading or read the transcript, but cold readings can get to this info. It is not uncommon to place things in the coffin of loved ones. Lisa could have said something like "you placed something in the coffin that touched your father deeply" and even without a "yes" response, Lisa could see the eyes get watery. I'm not saying this happened, as I obviously wasn't present. Just saying that this is one scenario that could explain how Lisa "knew" about the picture. From there, Lisa might guess it was a picture, as this again is not uncommon.

I'm just saying - I had no problem imagining that Lisa used such tactics. It is sooooo convincing when you are the person a psychic is speaking to - emotions do strange things to the parts of the brain needed for critical thinking. Even people trained in critical thinking may have moments influenced by emotion that test their reasoning skills.

[Garrette]

My first thought when I read that Lisa did this reading in her own (large) town was that she had knowledge of Lucy's father's death. How could this be? Well, considering she was making money as a psychic in the local community, she would be wise to cut out all obits and file them away - and when someone called for a reading, she could do a quick search in the files. And since women's names change with marriage, she would also be wise to have a cross-reference system set up. Clients who have had recent family deaths, in the past year or so, are the most likely to request a reading.

About the picture in the coffin? I would have to hear the reading or read the transcript, but cold readings can get to this info. It is not uncommon to place things in the coffin of loved ones. Lisa could have said something like "you placed something in the coffin that touched your father deeply" and even without a "yes" response, Lisa could see the eyes get watery. I'm not saying this happened, as I obviously wasn't present. Just saying that this is one scenario that could explain how Lisa "knew" about the picture. From there, Lisa might guess it was a picture, as this again is not uncommon.

I'm just saying - I had no problem imagining that Lisa used such tactics. It is sooooo convincing when you are the person a psychic is speaking to - emotions do strange things to the parts of the brain needed for critical thinking. Even people trained in critical thinking may have moments influenced by emotion that test their reasoning skills.You are exactly right. We cannot say with certainty that this did occur, but we can say with certainty that it could have occured and that it is more plausible than actual psychic ability which inexplicably is undemonstrable under controlled conditions. One would also be wise to read up on Lamar Keene's The Psychic Mafia (http://www.amazon.com/Psychic-Mafia-M-Lamar-Keene/dp/1573921610/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206623846&sr=8-1) for a surprising look into the networking and cooperation common amongst charlatans of this sort.

I truly hope lucyhicks comes back, but it would not surprise me if she does not. Speaking as one who has gone through it, it is an exceptionally difficult thing to willingly go where precious beliefs will likely crumble; it is far easier to go where the scrutiny is superficial and the enabling is powerful.

[Nursefoxfire]

I truly hope lucyhicks comes back, but it would not surprise me if she does not. Speaking as one who has gone through it, it is an exceptionally difficult thing to willingly go where precious beliefs will likely crumble; it is far easier to go where the scrutiny is superficial and the enabling is powerful.

We tend to shy away from things that "hurt" us, be they physical or emotional, so it's understandable that lucy may not return to this thread (or forum).

After being raised in a strict Fundy Christian household for so many years, I still have a hard time shaking off some of the lingering beliefs I had, even in the face of reality. And I know my extended family, who are all universally deeply religious (some Mormons, a few Baptists, some Worldwide Church of God) find great comfort in clinging to the idea that there is a benevolent Being up there who'll take care of everything, if only we follow a few simple steps. Even moreso now, with my BIL recently being diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer.

[SRW]

We tend to shy away from things that "hurt" us, be they physical or emotional, so it's understandable that lucy may not return to this thread (or forum).



I sent her my contact info four days ago and not a peep. I guess she has decided we are just a bunch of hateful cynics and not worth her time.

[creativecritter41]

You can't reason with some people. I swear they act like we are taking away the very air they breath. I will say, it seems weird to come to a forum that is known for being full of skeptics.. why come to this forum? You are setting yourself up to fail and then get angry and start calling people names.

*scratches head*

[lucyhicks1980]

hello can i just say i havent gone away just been too busy with my 6 week old baby and 4 year old son as its the school holidays here now. also the internet isnt as readily avaliable in this country. i have every intention of up loading my reading i just need you to bear with me as its going to take a while to do and my hands are a little full today with the kids. also lisa only ever knew my first name,no surname maiden or marital

[Big Les]

That's great to hear Lucy. I can't speak for everyone else but I think all we're really trying to say here is that you should check out both sides, re-evaluate what you think happened, and see whether there might be explanations for what happened that don't require supernatural intervention.

We'd all be interested in analysing your reading if you're able to make it available. For many of us it's fascinating in its own right, whether or not you think there's anything real behind it. Let us know if you need help "ripping" the files from the CD you have and getting them uploaded somewhere/emailed to one of us.

If you're happy taking this on faith, nothing we say will convince you otherwise. But if you're willing to challenge your own perception on this, we can break down the reading into chunks and offer alternative explanations for what you feel are the "hits".

[Garrette]

Excellent, lucy! I was trying to express hope, not condemnation. I certainly understand how life can take you away from forums like this. The baby and family have to come first.

So take care, take your time, and thanks for letting us know. I look forward to hearing more from you whenever you can get to it.

[Hindmost]

Lucy,

thanks for sticking around.

Some of us have been seeing this type of thing for a long time--30 years for me....we do get a bit jaded since we have yet to see someone pass a simple scientific test. However, the skeptic in us would believe psychic ability if someone would just take the JREF challenge and pass it.

We would look for good statistical evidence...since your experience is just a single event, it can never pass scientific muster with a skeptic. It is possible that something as simple as "caller ID" gave her what she needed and was able to give you a reading based on data mined quickly on the internet. Or is could have just been pure coincidence that she guessed correctly. If Lisa Williams is truly psychic, she should be able to know a lot more than what was said.

One great clue to cold reading...see how many questions the person asks and how many generic statements made...and compare that with the subject's feedback.

Please read some of Robert's stuff on this site...I think you will find it interesting.

http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/


glenn

[MWodan]

Hi, hello.
So, has something happened yet?

[dustbunny]

I think when she walks away with Randi's million dollars she can be said to have been proven genuine. I predict that she can't and won't.

I had the misfortune of viewing my first Lisa Williams show a few weeks ago. As usual I thought maybe she's different, more convincing, innocent till proven guilty. :oldroll: Nope there was none of that. Her cold reading techniques were textbook, not even some of the best I've seen.

Maybe it's the English accent that does it for people. All I can think of when I see these shows is how much has been cut out and edited just to glorify their name.

[technoextreme]

it was the first thing she said. apart from hello take a seat! she turned the recording equipment on and came straight out with it. i didnt answer at all. i was very aware that some people are fakes so made sure i gave nothing away. its a shame that the fakes out there cloud the judgement of people. as soon as im able to upload the reading i will. its ready and waiting
Lord knows it only took five seconds to find every single person that died in my family within the past twenty years and oddly enough their social security number. Try typing your last name and genealogy into Google. I gaurentee you will get the name off your dead father. Hell there is even a distinct possibility you could get a map right to his grave and house which is a little bit disconcerting. I wonder why most people don't try this for the curiosity factor. It's ridiculously easy and really quite cool.:) Found out I had another realaitive that served in the army during World War II thanks to the National Archives.
also lisa only ever knew my first name,no surname maiden or marital
So it goes from five minutes to searching to maybe a day. Depending on big your town is.

[Ouisch]

It's interesting to see in retrospect how sitters remember only selected parts of a reading. In another forum, a couple who had a reading with Lisa Williams went on and on about how she never asked questions or prodded them, that she just knew everything. However, I have their episode on my TiVo and have watched it many times, and in it Lisa does all the typical cold reading tricks. She does indeed ask them questions throughout the meeting rather than tell them things, even though this is not how they recall the reading. (By the way, the spirit she'd contacted didn't speak any English, yet she was able to "understand" him via the universal language of...spooks? ghosts? Whatever.)

[Niobe]

i have every intention of up loading my reading i just need you to bear with me as its going to take a while to do
If you have a digital file (mp3 for instance) you can upload it at:
http://www.zshare.net/

That walking by the road thing was very weird. How DO THEY do that? Mere chance? Maybe she heard them talking before the reading or something.
It was already established that the child wasn't a baby but died young and suddenly. How many types of tragic deaths are there for children? Traffic accidents, drowning, abduction.
All these things take place besides a road of some sort. If he wasn't hit by a car (which is the best bet), ponds are next to paths, and children that are abducted (by strangers) are usually plucked from the street. Even if the boy had died in a burning building, the road thing could have been bended into a metaphor, "path of life".

[reasonmusic]

Nothing. Absolutely nothing will ever convince any of you that any of this is real. This whole forum would collapse if it did. You are not here to discover truth, you are here to proclaim the truth you already KNOW to be.

Why do you guys mess with people who write on here because they are seeking something you already know by acting like you could be convinced? This will NEVER Happen. Why not just be honest and say "no matter what you say, I will always have an answer and that is, I am right... they are wrong. Always." Or, why not say, "Even if God Himself appeared to me and told me my deepest desires, it would be a cold reading."

Be careful who you think to be fools in this world, my friends.

[Tanstaafl]

To be fair, don't you think some evidence should be produced?

[technoextreme]

Or, why not say, "Even if God Himself appeared to me and told me my deepest desires, it would be a cold reading."

That would actually change my mind but right now all I've seen is cheap parlor tricks that confuse and hurt people.

[Beltaine]

Nothing. Absolutely nothing will ever convince any of you that any of this is real. This whole forum would collapse if it did. You are not here to discover truth, you are here to proclaim the truth you already KNOW to be.

Why do you guys mess with people who write on here because they are seeking something you already know by acting like you could be convinced? This will NEVER Happen. Why not just be honest and say "no matter what you say, I will always have an answer and that is, I am right... they are wrong. Always." Or, why not say, "Even if God Himself appeared to me and told me my deepest desires, it would be a cold reading."

Be careful who you think to be fools in this world, my friends.



How is being so hell-bent on convincing a bunch of skeptics that a psychic is legit any different than the same bunch of skeptics trying to explain to you why she isn't legit?





It isn't.

Go troll somewhere else.

[SRW]

Nothing. Absolutely nothing will ever convince any of you that any of this is real. This whole forum would collapse if it did. You are not here to discover truth, you are here to proclaim the truth you already KNOW to be.

Why do you guys mess with people who write on here because they are seeking something you already know by acting like you could be convinced? This will NEVER Happen. Why not just be honest and say "no matter what you say, I will always have an answer and that is, I am right... they are wrong. Always." Or, why not say, "Even if God Himself appeared to me and told me my deepest desires, it would be a cold reading."

Be careful who you think to be fools in this world, my friends.

It has been pointed out to you many time before, if Lisa Williams were able pass the JREF MDC then I would have to question my views.

Just what would it take for you to question yours?

[MWodan]

reasonmusic
LoL. fanatics, got to love 'em (on both sides, that is).

1: Many mediums were proven to be frauds.

+

2: Non-mediums have emulated performances of mediums, genuine or not.

= it's up to mediums to proof their gift, simple as that.

Do the Randi Test or another scientific test and astonish (all of) the world (including me, I'm open :))

Just why don't they, one wonders :rolleyes:

[Azrael 5]

Came to this thread via search.I saw a brief part of her show yesterday, contrived isn't the word!! Lisa went into a cookie shop for some chocolate and gave the shop assistant a reading about her dead Father. Like you do.
"Some chocolate chips please..do you believe in clairvoyants..?"
I did notice the audio changed between Lisa and shop assistant.Also you never saw the two of them in one shot.
Dire.

[SRW]

So in my Email this morning Lisa Williams (GhostHunterLisa) (http://twitter.com/GhostHunterLisa?utm_campaign=twitter20080331162631&utm_medium=email&utm_source=follow) is now following your updates on Twitter.

Why does she need twitter? can't she just take her hat off and get signals from the sky?

[MWodan]

Any news from Lucyhickd1980 yet?

[Orangem]

Hello hello! I know it's been a while... I'm completely new to all of this (and english isn't my mother tongue so I apologize in advance for language mistakes) I'm entering this thread because it is the reason I decided to join the JREF Forum... Actually, Lisa Williams is. I discovered her by accident on the net and was a little troubled. I'm definitely more of a skeptic than a believer but I'm also skeptic of a certain form of skepticism... hum... the word isn't quite right... it's called cynicism.

I agree, Lisa Williams seems to be a cold reader but some of her readings have troubled me, i.e. put a doubt in my mind. If it all really is cold reading, she's pretty darn good at it (contrary to what I've been reading amongst many skeptic critics). I've seen John Edward readings and James Van Praagh readings, and to me, (knowing just a little about cold reading) it is extremely evident that they are full of it. Lisa Williams seems different.

Any thoughts for a newcomer? :)

[SRW]

Hi Orangem and welcome to the forum. I was on the fence when I first saw John Edward, that was before I knew much about cold reading. I started posting on one of his fan sites. I noticed that anytime I had a skeptical question I my post would be moved to a restricted area. So I started posting the question over here. That is when I learned all the tricks of the phony psychic.

What I would suggest is you find a transcript of one of her readings and post it here. I expect that the reading will be dissected and analyzed, and all the tricks reviled.

[Orangem]

Thanks SRW for the quick response. OK. I guess that's the best way to go about it. I'll try to find something. But if anyone has time to check out "Joanna's reading" on Youtube, I'd be interested to have feedback about that.

[Azrael 5]

Thanks SRW for the quick response. OK. I guess that's the best way to go about it. I'll try to find something. But if anyone has time to check out "Joanna's reading" on Youtube, I'd be interested to have feedback about that.

Well it's edited so kind if hard to dissect but it's fairly general cold reading,highlight being at 4:38 "when Lisa mentioned the 4 red roses it was pretty impreessive"
Except Lisa didn't say that. She said "He's handing me a red rose,and linking it to the number 4. " My view is she was expecting a birthday or anniversary.
At 5:27 "He's talking about the photo next to your bed" Wow I'd be suprised if any widow didnt have a photo next to their bed. But if he can "say" these things why so many questions? At 6:30 "He's saying "Let it come and go" But doesnt elaborate! Only a minute earlier he was specific.
7:28 ish "Im getting a pain in the head" Repeated. This gets no response so she widens the area to the neck and jaw area.

The only semi impressive hit is the mention of him (spirit)interfering with photo frame and thus it needs re-framing.But in an edited reading it's not much.

[Xulld]

Ok. I am about done with this forum. Here is what I wrote concerning the "Bad Psychics" article (and the reason I wrote it is because I watched that show and got a VERY different perspective. Regardless of whether Lisa Wiliams is true or flase, this episode was unfairly evaulated and transcripted):

Give me a freaking break! That's ALL you have to say about that show? You are nothing short of a coward and you ought to be ashamed of your tacticts. There was a lot more to that show than you wrote about. I don't know who is worse, the fakes you write about or you cowardly skeptics who MUST make anything fake for your insecurity or fear of losing control. Grow up! If you have the guts and want to email me, use reasonmusic@yahoo.com

END QUOTE

This is a pretty emotional response, I cannot really imagine why you have reacted this vehemently. Well that is of course until I read this next post by you . . .

Nothing. Absolutely nothing will ever convince any of you that any of this is real. This whole forum would collapse if it did. You are not here to discover truth, you are here to proclaim the truth you already KNOW to be.

Why do you guys mess with people who write on here because they are seeking something you already know by acting like you could be convinced? This will NEVER Happen. Why not just be honest and say "no matter what you say, I will always have an answer and that is, I am right... they are wrong. Always." Or, why not say, "Even if God Himself appeared to me and told me my deepest desires, it would be a cold reading."

Be careful who you think to be fools in this world, my friends.

It seems to me here that most of the skeptics here are questioning the information put forward by the claimant, and here we have you reacting emotional to that questioning.

I myself engage these kinds of conversations with as little emotional attachment to an outcome as possible, this way I can remain objective.

Its clear to me, you are anything but objective. Understand that to really seek truth is to be ready to change YOUR mind, something that requires objectivity. I would wager that your intent is not to find the truth, but to confirm your own beliefs, the very thing you accuse us skeptics of . . . . projection indeed.

I would be surprised, and delighted to have you engage in a conversation comparing the kinds of information Lisa puts forward with other individuals that use cold reading. A direct comparison and a line by line transcription is exactly what the skeptics want and exactly what is rarely forthcoming by the believers.

Objective means to analyze, not become emotional and claim the other side is being dishonest when they are the only ones that are engaging in that very analysis.

[Orangem]

Well it's edited so kind if hard to dissect but it's fairly general cold reading,highlight being at 4:38 "when Lisa mentioned the 4 red roses it was pretty impreessive"
Except Lisa didn't say that. She said "He's handing me a red rose,and linking it to the number 4. " My view is she was expecting a birthday or anniversary.
At 5:27 "He's talking about the photo next to your bed" Wow I'd be suprised if any widow didnt have a photo next to their bed. But if he can "say" these things why so many questions? At 6:30 "He's saying "Let it come and go" But doesnt elaborate! Only a minute earlier he was specific.
7:28 ish "Im getting a pain in the head" Repeated. This gets no response so she widens the area to the neck and jaw area.

The only semi impressive hit is the mention of him (spirit)interfering with photo frame and thus it needs re-framing.But in an edited reading it's not much.
True. It's pretty difficult to analyze anything that's been edited. And of course, we know that the editing is made to make her look... well... competent. And I work in the film and video post-production industry, so I know how much editing can change perceptions. But I was quite impressed with the mimicking of the husband: going down on her knees, saying she needed to look the sitter in the eyes... and the sitter said that was exactly how her husband used to talk to her... But of course, we don't know if the sitter had given a clue of this in a part that could have been edited out. (Sigh)

She just felt different to me. I guess a part of me would like this to be true. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that someone could toy with such pain and knowingly provide false comfort. I just don't get how they sleep at night and look at themselves in a mirror if all this is complete fabrication. I'm naive some of you will surely say... I prefer the word candid ;)

Anyhow, I'm not done with this. I'll try to find something better to analyze. Maybe I'll try to get a reading myself and record it! :)

[dbilleaux]

I came across this forum a while back when I was searching for any rational reason why Lisa Williams could be a fraud or the real thing.

I've read through the forum and found that a majority of people who have done research on "Cold Readings" are considerably certain that's what is going on, yet many people say it could also be a "warm reading".

I've watched all of her episodes and they entertaining regardless, and for a while the show convinced me about this sort of "after life".

Does anyone, who have watched several episodes of the show (I've noticed only people mentioning the first episode) consider that she may have techniques out of the ordinary?

Here are all of the episodes so far:
mylifetime.com/on-tv/shows/lisa-williams/best-of-season/season-1/video




So in my Email this morning Lisa Willaims is now following your updates on Twitter.

Why does she need twitter? can't she just take her hat off and get signals from the sky?

Note: This is NOT the same Lisa Williams we are talking about.

[Orangem]

I came across this forum a while back when I was searching for any rational reason why Lisa Williams could be a fraud or the real thing.

I've read through the forum and found that a majority of people who have done research on "Cold Readings" are considerably certain that's what is going on, yet many people say it could also be a "warm reading".

I've watched all of her episodes and they entertaining regardless, and for a while the show convinced me about this sort of "after life".

Does anyone, who have watched several episodes of the show (I've noticed only people mentioning the first episode) consider that she may have techniques out of the ordinary?

Here are all of the episodes so far:
mylifetime.com/on-tv/shows/lisa-williams/best-of-season/season-1/video

I have watched ALL the episodes of season 1 and 2, and some readings of her new series (the ones that are on Youtube anyway). I have come to this thread exactly for the same reasons: she had started to convince me. But I've always been a skeptic about these things and this thread made me realize that I can't have a set opinion about her until... either I go to a reading myself and record it in its entirety and have it analyzed and/or she chooses to do JREF 1 million $ challenge. Can't base an opinion on anything that has been edited.

[Kathyw]

Hi everyone, I am a newbie but I wanted to say a couple of things.
Here in England when someone's obituary is printed there is rarely any mention of the family left behind except if they are famous/rich and if fact it's not that common to post obits if Lisa would not get much info from folk in England.
Saying that however I do not believe that Lisa in genuine I have seen the real thing and Lisa is far from that.
One medium I knew asked you to give a donation to a local hospice as she said her gift was God given and she was not to make money from it! I have known a few who did similar - they just wanted to give reassurance.
Ater my Dad passed over I left it three months or so and I went to see a medium (who did not charge) she said that I was married - I do not wear a ring - that my Dad was watching over me and that he had a message for me. My Dad said he was so very sorry for having mis-judged me and he knew the truth of what had happened and he wanted me to forgive my Mum. This came out of the blue. Not even my husband knew what had happened - it was between my Dad, my Mum and myself.
When I went to my Mum's I told her and at first she pretended not to know what I was talking about. Then she said 'well Dad must be telling me off because I have lost my wedding ring'. It was a long time before I felt complete forgiveness to my Mum as it had caused a distance between myself and my Dad but a few months later I felt a sense of peace and knew that I had forgiven my Mum. She phoned me later that night and said she had found her ring in the garden under some bushes!
The medium only knew my first name - I did not pay her - she lived in a different area from me.
There are genuine mediums out there but they do not shout their talent and they do not seek to make money for themselves.
People like Lisa make me sad because they take advantage of people grief.

[biomorph]

Hi everyone, I am a newbie but I wanted to say a couple of things.
Paragraphs are useful......lol

Here in England when someone's obituary is printed there is rarely any mention of the family left behind except if they are famous/rich

not so, love, local papers have loads of 'em. It's down to the relatives, not fame or riches.

My mum wasn't rich or famous, she got an obit, cost a tenner in the local rag...
and if fact it's not that common to post obits if Lisa would not get much info from folk in England.


not sure that follows,, mediums on shows do try to get info, you need to do some learning.

Saying that however I do not believe that Lisa in genuine I have seen the real thing and Lisa is far from that.

Who?
that is the qustion on everyone's lips here probably.lol


One medium I knew asked you to give a donation to a local hospice as she said her gift was God given and she was not to make money from it! I have known a few who did similar - they just wanted to give reassurance.
so you pay up, and feel as if yougot "somethin for something" but the medium isnt responsible for being a fraud because she "didn't charge".
Nice get out.......and entirely underhanded and dishonest, you just weren't awake that day where you?
Are you ever?


Ater my Dad passed over I left it three months or so and I went to see a medium (who did not charge) she said that I was married - I do not wear a ring -

50% chance of being right is an easy guess.


that my Dad was watching over me



and she knew his name, NI Number, and inside leg measurement, yeah right.......obviously as you need a dad to get born (so far!) everyone has one....lolol

and that he had a message for me.

If he can speak to a complete stranger and nonrelative he doesn't know, how come you aren't on that list?
Mediums always seem to "have a message". And its always about something you could fit into almost any persons life history somewhere....oh dear , oh dear, .....

My Dad said he was so very sorry for having mis-judged me and he knew the truth of what had happened and he wanted me to forgive my Mum.

Um no he didn't, he isn't alive to do so. Dead is dead, there's no afterlife. The medium was using your (un evidence based) belief to gain an advantage over you because you turned up at the door.
Next time please think.

This came out of the blue. Not even my husband knew what had happened - it was between my Dad, my Mum and myself.
What came out of the blue?
A load of generalisations wheeled out parrot fashion to a gullible supportive audience.
You gave that "donation to the charity" directly I expect?
Or did the medium take it "on your behalf"


When I went to my Mum's I told her and at first she pretended not to know what I was talking about.

Thats your clue.......how come she had to rake around to make it fit retroactively.........think about that a lot.


Then she said 'well Dad must be telling me off because I have lost my wedding ring'.

so the medium didn't mention your mum losing the ring?

Um, why not? IF your dad was alive, surely he would not have your mum guessing what he meant, if was not alive, the medium gives you some generalisations, and you fit them in, and say to everyone how great she was, which boosts her trade.
In fact she told you nothing.

It was a long time before I felt complete forgiveness to my Mum as it had caused a distance between myself and my Dad but a few months later I felt a sense of peace and knew that I had forgiven my Mum.

what ? after your dad is dead?
how much distance do you want, and, how nearer is nearer? 200yds?

You say you've forgiven you mum
what for again? for losing a ring that she found again?
What has it got to do with you? Nothing.
So all the medium has done so far is caused a rift between your mum and you, over months, and over something that has nothing to do with what she told you.....
Fat City, gal. Of course you can't get a refund either lolol..




She phoned me later that night and said she had found her ring in the garden under some bushes!
So?

The medium only knew my first name - I did not pay her - she lived in a different area from me.

Nope
a/ she knows you have a dad (we all do)
b/ she knows you'll swallow her line, as you are paying , just not her with money, just time.
c/ she knows you'll retrofit it all in place, and if not, you won't be back. these mediums never record their failures.

There are genuine mediums out there but they do not shout their talent and they do not seek to make money for themselves.

Rubbish. You might look a little harder.

There are no real mediums out there, and most of 'em need money. Are you one?


People like Lisa make me sad because they take advantage of people grief.

And you let one take adavantage of your grief, are you sad for her too, or just feeling a little stupid.?

[TheDaver]

Kathy, I don’t exactly see the same talent you do in the medium you saw. What she told you was extremely vague – it would be true for anybody since it’s so wide open to interpretation.

And that’s one of the main methods psychics/mediums use: They tell you things that sound personal and meaningful but are anything but.

[Kathyw]

Paragraphs are useful......lol

not so, love, local papers have loads of 'em. It's down to the relatives, not fame or riches.

My mum wasn't rich or famous, she got an obit, cost a tenner in the local rag...
not sure that follows,, mediums on shows do try to get info, you need to do some learning.

that is the qustion on everyone's lips here probably.lol


so you pay up, and feel as if yougot "somethin for something" but the medium isnt responsible for being a fraud because she "didn't charge".
Nice get out.......and entirely underhanded and dishonest, you just weren't awake that day where you?
Are you ever?


50% chance of being right is an easy guess.




and she knew his name, NI Number, and inside leg measurement, yeah right.......obviously as you need a dad to get born (so far!) everyone has one....lolol

If he can speak to a complete stranger and nonrelative he doesn't know, how come you aren't on that list?
Mediums always seem to "have a message". And its always about something you could fit into almost any persons life history somewhere....oh dear , oh dear, .....

Um no he didn't, he isn't alive to do so. Dead is dead, there's no afterlife. The medium was using your (un evidence based) belief to gain an advantage over you because you turned up at the door.
Next time please think.

What came out of the blue?
A load of generalisations wheeled out parrot fashion to a gullible supportive audience.
You gave that "donation to the charity" directly I expect?
Or did the medium take it "on your behalf"

Thats your clue.......how come she had to rake around to make it fit retroactively.........think about that a lot.

so the medium didn't mention your mum losing the ring?

Um, why not? IF your dad was alive, surely he would not have your mum guessing what he meant, if was not alive, the medium gives you some generalisations, and you fit them in, and say to everyone how great she was, which boosts her trade.
In fact she told you nothing.

what ? after your dad is dead?
how much distance do you want, and, how nearer is nearer? 200yds?

You say you've forgiven you mum
what for again? for losing a ring that she found again?
What has it got to do with you? Nothing.
So all the medium has done so far is caused a rift between your mum and you, over months, and over something that has nothing to do with what she told you.....
Fat City, gal. Of course you can't get a refund either lolol..

So?

Nope
a/ she knows you have a dad (we all do)
b/ she knows you'll swallow her line, as you are paying , just not her with money, just time.
c/ she knows you'll retrofit it all in place, and if not, you won't be back. these mediums never record their failures.

Rubbish. You might look a little harder.

There are no real mediums out there, and most of 'em need money. Are you one?


And you let one take adavantage of your grief, are you sad for her too, or just feeling a little stupid.?

Not only are you extremely rude but you waffle assuming you know everything.
I have lived in 3 different areas in London and 5 in England and it was unusual in all of those areas for people to do obits - possibly because everyone who needed to know already knew anyway.

The 'incident' my Dad was referring to concerned my Mum's wedding ring - now that is a bit of a stretch considering no-one oher than Dad, Mum and myself knew about it. She never mentioned the ring and not did I.
You are obviously a person who needs every single thing explained in great detail or you assume you knwo all the answers.

I was very close to my Dad but the lie my Mum told caused a coldness between us from then until he passed. Obviously he believed my Mum over me.

I did not give her any money - I sent a donation to St. Joseph's Hospice as she requested - I was asked to put in the note that I was ust donating to a good cause. I never saw her again as she was moving to Cornwall shortly!

I can understand your opposition to what I have said but your rudeness I cannot.
I am probably older than you and trust me, I will truly enjoy the look on your face when you realise that there is more than this and there is an afterlife.

I don't like people who assume they know everything and are rude so you will be pleased to know this is my last post on here.

[Azrael 5]

Ater my Dad passed over I left it three months or so and I went to see a medium (who did not charge) she said that I was married - I do not wear a ring - that my Dad was watching over me and that he had a message for me.
So far so bland.If I say you are tall and your Grandma has a message for you ,does this make me a medium?
My Dad said he was so very sorry for having mis-judged me and he knew the truth of what had happened and he wanted me to forgive my Mum.
Even if you are quoting verbatim,memory is generally unreliable,that is vague would you not agree? No specific statement.Why didnt Dad say "You lost Mums ring its under bushes in garden"? Why do you think the game of charades?
This came out of the blue. Not even my husband knew what had happened - it was between my Dad.
Not even the medium knew,as she didn't say anything specific. Here are some other things it could have meant.

1. You had a baby ,Mum objected you fell out with parents.
2. You married someone your Mum didnt like this caused a family row,Mum threw you out of home.

What was this amazing medium's name( I get the feeling I know the answer coming):rolleyes:

ETA: I live in Yorkshire and Obits are in the local paper every week and always have been.

[Orangem]

Dead is dead, there's no afterlife.

And this is a fact because...

You know, it works both ways. If you can proove it, I think you deserve the 1M$ prize! :rolleyes:

[Akhenaten]

delete

[biomorph]

And this is a fact because...

You know, it works both ways. If you can proove it, I think you deserve the 1M$ prize! :rolleyes:

Um , no it doesn't work both ways.

Mediums claim there's an afterlife, and there's no evidence for that.

Therefore there's no afterlife regarding the medium's claims.

[biomorph]

Not only are you extremely rude but you waffle assuming you know everything.

Thanks, I'm not rude, just direct.

thank you for the paragraphs, it makeswhatoyu kindly point out so much easier to read

Further more I know I know nothing, I'm asking you, not telling you.....


I have lived in 3 different areas in London and 5 in England and it was unusual in all of those areas for people to do obits - possibly because everyone who needed to know already knew anyway.

Sure, whatever....i'm a gyppo , I've lived in hundreds of place over my life, so what? it doesn't make me right......

The 'incident' my Dad was referring to concerned my Mum's wedding ring - now that is a bit of a stretch considering no-one oher than Dad, Mum and myself knew about it.
She never mentioned the ring and not did I.

and the medium did? Nope.

You are obviously a person who needs every single thing explained in great detail or you assume you knwo all the answers.

Nope, you just got taken for a ride and don't like some stranger pointing that fact out. not my problem, hun
however my delivery style does always need work, I'm mostly illiterate.


I was very close to my Dad but the lie my Mum told caused a coldness between us from then until he passed.

What lie? did the medium mention that lie? nope.


Obviously he believed my Mum over me.

Obviously?
when? after he died? well, he married your mum, not you, there's difference.
funny thing i don't entirely beleive you either, now theres two of us, me and your dad lol


I did not give her any money - I sent a donation to St. Joseph's Hospice as she requested - I was asked to put in the note that I was ust donating to a good cause.

a note to who? what for? you don't need a note to donate directly.
if you gave the cash to the medium, did you check the charity actually got the donation, bet you didn't if she took it..


I never saw her again as she was moving to Cornwall shortly!

Handy, take the money and run, baby run.
Ripped or what?
Did she actually move to cornwall? or was that to stop you coming back and saying "hey that sucked, give me a refund".
I can understand your opposition to what I have said but your rudeness I cannot.

I'm not being rude, just direct. yuo have however a choice, you could address my questions, and i'm not in "opposition". I just think you don't have a clue.
Do you?
You could change my mind you know.....

I am probably older than you and trust me, I will truly enjoy the look on your face when you realise that there is more than this and there is an afterlife.

I'm 52. how about you fancy pants?

If I ever "realise" there's an afterlife I'll be very happy to accept that if its factual.
Its not though is it? Evidence?

I don't like people who assume they know everything and are rude so you will be pleased to know this is my last post on here.
i won't be pleased your leaving, i need a laugh, haha
Thats right blame the horrid poster who got your goat, saw through your story, embaressed you a bit with some poignant questions, and now have a great excuse to leave..
How about showing some backbone and ethics and rising above it, and actually addressing the issues.?

Its only words. I'm not the best with words, and everyone here knows that.

how about you edumacating me eh? Oh wise and older person..............I'm up for some learning.

just that your words sound well, rather like the sound of gullibiity.

yuo got ripped babes, and she ran. I just can't laugh enough.....deary me.....

[jmcvann]

Ummm...I'm going to have to call bull-doody on Kathy W's story. It took her "months" to forgive her mom for losing a ring? An innocent occurrence that could happen to anyone? Later you say that your mom told your dad a lie about the ring. What kind of lie? Did she say it was stolen? That she pawned it? The more I think about the stranger her story gets. Let's go back and look at it.

After my Dad passed over I left it three months or so [My edit: What does that first phrase mean?? "I left it three months..."] and I went to see a medium (who did not charge) she said that I was married - I do not wear a ring - that my Dad was watching over me and that he had a message for me. My Dad said he was so very sorry for having mis-judged me and he knew the truth of what had happened and he wanted me to forgive my Mum. This came out of the blue. Not even my husband knew what had happened - it was between my Dad, my Mum and myself.

When I went to my Mum's I told her and at first she pretended not to know what I was talking about. Then she said 'well Dad must be telling me off because I have lost my wedding ring'. [Is this what the rift between you and your dad was about? And how is your dad telling you he's sorry for misjudging you equal to him "telling off" your mom?] It was a long time before I felt complete forgiveness to my Mum [even though she accidentally lost her wedding ring, and you are married and don't wear yours by choice!] as it had caused a distance between myself and my Dad but a few months later I felt a sense of peace and knew that I had forgiven my Mum. She phoned me later that night and said she had found her ring in the garden under some bushes!

Perhaps I have misunderstood Kathy's story, but as told, it makes no sense to me.

[biomorph]

Ummm...I'm going to have to call bull-doody on Kathy W's story. It took her "months" to forgive her mom for losing a ring? An innocent occurrence that could happen to anyone? Later you say that your mom told your dad a lie about the ring. What kind of lie? Did she say it was stolen? That she pawned it? The more I think about the stranger her story gets. Let's go back and look at it.



Perhaps I have misunderstood Kathy's story, but as told, it makes no sense to me.

Sounds senseless to me too, which is why I've ragged it a bit, well perhaps more than a bit!.

someones telling porkiepies to try and convince those "evil sceptics", well we weren't all born that wet behind the ears, Kathy.
Obviously the more personal insults I don't consider worth replying to, just would like a straight story.

Kathyw when you've stopped slagging me off, please answer the questions I've asked after all if you're so old and wise it should be easy shouldn't it?

love and light

[Orangem]

Um , no it doesn't work both ways.

Mediums claim there's an afterlife, and there's no evidence for that.

Therefore there's no afterlife regarding the medium's claims.

What I mean is skepticism should work both ways:

mediums claim a certain type of afterlife, Buddists claim a certain type of afterlife, some claim reincarnation, some _________ (fill in the blank), and some claim there's absolutely nothing. NO ONE is able to proove ANY of these claims, hence, we have no clue.

[Marcus]

And this is a fact because...

You know, it works both ways. If you can proove it, I think you deserve the 1M$ prize! :rolleyes:
Sorry, you can't prove a negative. The claim here would be that an afterlife exists. Of course, because of this, I wouldn't say that the non-existence of an afterlife is a fact, I would just say it is very, very, likely.

[Orangem]

Sorry, you can't prove a negative. The claim here would be that an afterlife exists. Of course, because of this, I wouldn't say that the non-existence of an afterlife is a fact, I would just say it is very, very, likely.

I completely agree but...


Dead is dead, there's no afterlife.

...seems to me like it's stated as a truth, a done deal, a fact.
That's simply what I was reacting to. Likely as it may well be, that's all it is for now: likely.

[biomorph]

What I mean is skepticism should work both ways:

not really, these claims have been around for centuries, possibly longer, the scepticism is focused on these claims which have been the pretty much default accepted view in history.

I'm skeptical of this sort of thinking, and the claims put forward therein.

I don't have to be skeptical about the things i choose not to be doubtful over, do I?

back to the point
The claim of any sort of "afterlife" exists is what i here personally counter.

This isn't because i'm not skeptical that death is death and thats it, its just not the position the claimant is taking.
It is true here I make a counterclaim of no afterlife, which can be treated with some sort of doubt on behalf of the bleever, and i acknowledge that doubt.
I just don't have that particular doubt myself.

That doesn't render the claims the afterlife proponant makes incomplete, or answers the questions posed to them, it just puts the onus back on me, when they have not justified their own view.

Do you see what i'm getting at here?

Its not a game of two halves.

You could claim the moon is made of cheese yes? I'd be sceptical of that claim.

If i suggest its not, you'd have to find some evidence to back your own claim up, not attempt to shift the burden of proof away from your own dilemna, which is , you have no proof for your initial claim.
I'm just responding, not making a seperate claim.

mediums claim a certain type of afterlife, Buddists claim a certain type of afterlife, some claim reincarnation, some _________ (fill in the blank), and some claim there's absolutely nothing. NO ONE is able to proove ANY of these claims, hence, we have no clue.
Good point, but there's more evidence for no afterlife than there is for.

Let me give you another example;

We have a rock (living thing) and a pond (death).

If you claim first that the rock will refloat (survive death) to the surface after I chuck it in, and if am skeptical of your claim all we have to do is chuck the rock in the pond (the living thing dies yes?).

if the rock returns in some recogniseable fashion as to show it lives, then you are correct, if not you are incorrect.

No rocks have however, ever returned though in reality. they stay sunk. you and I know this of course and therefore dead is dead.

Many might claim that the rock has returned, however they produce no evidence.

after that rather long explanation do you see my point?

Find me the afterlife, and get the evidence, and I'll consider it.

No one has yet anywhere ever have they?. No rock surfaces, regardless of such claims.

I've had death run through my life experiences a few times , sometime really close to hand and at my hand, and it would be nice, but useless, to assume that life continues.

nothing has EVER returned from death tho. ever!.

If it has, where's the evidence other than the sanctimonius claptrap these deluded individuals spout?

Nowhere.

[biomorph]

<snip>

...seems to me like it's stated as a truth, a done deal, a fact.
It is a fact, and IMO a done deal.
You may disagree with me, and I respect that, however nothing comes back from the dead, and if it did, in what form?
there's no soul or spirit to survive, when your brain is dead its over sunshine...if there is, and CLEAR evidence of such I'd reconsider.

That's simply what I was reacting to. Likely as it may well be, that's all it is for now: likely.

i understand, my sureness of position draws you, show me another way........

[Orangem]

i understand, my sureness of position draws you, show me another way........

Hum... This is where I'm starting to think this is the wrong thread to be continuing this discussion on.

I'm really new to this. Is this too far away from the initial subject?

Don't want to be a straw man... although I'm not yet clear on what that means. :blush:

[biomorph]

Hum... This is where I'm starting to think this is the wrong thread to be continuing this discussion on.
Me too, maybe another day eh? I'm sorta outsa words anyhow at the mo.



I'm really new to this. Is this too far away from the initial subject?

Probably but who's lisa williams anyway lol:p

Don't want to be a straw man... although I'm not yet clear on what that means. :blush:

I think its all a bit of a derail, probably mostly my fault ,

(apologies to the mods and all that).

i just cant stand that wall o' text ram-it-down-your-throat garbage from the likes of KW.

They (and yes there's a few of 'em) rarely are here without some other agenda. just winds me up good and proper.....lol

For "straw man" and other logical fallacies hit this linky

logical fallacies (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)

you have a nice day now .........

regards
BM :)

[Orangem]

Me too, maybe another day eh? I'm sorta outsa words anyhow at the mo.



Probably but who's lisa williams anyway lol:p

I think its all a bit of a derail, probably mostly my fault ,

(apologies to the mods and all that).

i just cant stand that wall o' text ram-it-down-your-throat garbage from the likes of KW.

They (and yes there's a few of 'em) rarely are here without some other agenda. just winds me up good and proper.....lol

For "straw man" and other logical fallacies hit this linky

logical fallacies (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)

you have a nice day now .........

regards
BM :)


Hey! Thanks for the link! Very cool! I guess you're right, it's more of a derail than a straw man.

You have a nice day too...

I'm sure we'll have the chance to pick this up again... somehow. :)

Orangem

[Orangem]

Well... I'm going to see a Lisa Williams show on the 18th of March and writing an anthropology paper on my experience...

We'll see!

[Orangem]

Oh! My God! What a load of CRAP!!! Incredible what editing will do for this woman! :(

[Kuko 4000]

Today was the first that I've seen or heard of this woman. Her show just started airing here in Finland. What the...and she is so full of herself that it's almost surrealistic to see when people take her for real. Unbelievable.

[lucyfanclub]

The conduct of Lisa Williams and other frauds should be prosecuted as fraud. In Australia, the Trade Practices Act prohibits taking money for any action that is deceptive, and this activity is deceptive. The most disgusting behaviour I've seen is her donating the proceeds of her side-show farce to the bush fire relief appeal. Talk about proceed of crime. People like this whale make extraordinary claims so must provide extraordinary proof. She is at best deluded and at worst a shameless fake and charlatan. I think it's a bit of both actually. To anyone who defends her based on the supposed accuracy of her statements - the more accurate she appears, the more suspicious you should be. There are only two possibilities:

1. Information is derived from some paranormal or supernatural source
2. It is derived by some easily explained very earthly (and probably dishonest) means.

Ockham's razor. Think about. Really, think about it, just a bit.