Comic uses the "N" word

[bigred]

I'm still curious about the "You see? It shocks you.. It shocks you...." I never see the entire video posted.

Was he putting it in context, perhaps talking about forbidden words? I've seen even CNN (and especially FOX News reporting things out of context). What was the thread of the entire so-called comedy bit?
Oh it's only the whole point that he said those things purposely (ie the "n word") to both "shock" the audience and piss off the hecklers. But that's not important.

:rolleyes:

[bigred]

You might not be, but I think that would put you in the minority of people of any race. .I doubt it. Contrary to popular belief, most people are not attention whores of the lowest sort - even at the (dubious) possibility of financial gain.

[bigred]

For a person to achieve the kind of career success he did is a combination of luck and skill and there are lots of other people who have the skill but without the luck will never achieve his level of success. So is that fair? Let's pretend this is even the tiniest bit relevant: it would depend on the talent level of the other person in question, wouldn't it? Oh well, life aint fair, big news.

PS I've seen less talented people than him make it big. You want to go off on this tangent - well first start another thread - but talk about people like Keanu Reeves or rap "musicians" or some such. Richards is way back in the line.


In a life time of pretty much not agreeing with Al Sharpton, I think he got this one right. Think again.

I will not go to see a movie he is in, I will not rent or buy a DVD he appears in made after this incident, I would not go to a venue he was appearing in and I would hope others would join me in that On the contrary: I'm a bigger fan than ever and encourage others to be so as well. Not because I agree with what he did, but because I'm sick as hell of the double-standard. People think "cracka" is funny and "White Men Can't Jump" is a perfectly acceptable name for a movie? Then don't cry about......the word that all the morons are so freaked out about you can't even say it. :rolleyes: LOL @ our goofball society.

[firecoins]

Prediction: Richards will settle the suit just to get it out of the media and end this media circus.

This will not affect media sales of the 7th season of Seinfeld 1 bit. I don't think it had a big black audience.

I remember one scene of 1 episode starring Michael Richards offended Puerto Ricans because Richards accidentally lit it on fire and stomped on it to put it out. Surprissed this didn't come up at all.

I am Jewish(agnostic really) and from New York. I think it hypocritical of Rev. Jackson to get involved after calling New York Hyme town. If he said 1 time in public he must have thought that if not said it in private previously. Am I still in my time limit to sue?

[davefoc]

I'd be curious to know if you feel similarly about all the black comics who routinely make racist remarks towards whites. Micheal Irvin fan perhaps as well?

I don't, but I am not sure an exact analog is possible.

First if there were black entertainers who referred to something like the holocaust the way Richards referred to lynchiing I would not go to their shows or see their movies and I would hope that others would follow suit.

Second, I am not knowledgeable about most of the stand up comic world and I'm not sure exactly what goes on there. Perhaps if I was more aware I would be able to see something that struck me as similar to what Richards did.

Thirdly, there is no widespread history of blacks enslaving whites or lynching whites so I think racist comments by blacks aren't quite analogous to racist comments by whites given that history. Nonetheless, it would be OK with me if the careers of black racist entertainers ended also.

[jimtron]

Oh yeah that's comparable. :rolleyes: You mean those black guys were old enough to remember being slaves? WOW call the press, that's some old mo fo's!Yes, they are comparable. Perhaps one was more heinous than the other, but both the Holocaust and slavery in the U.S. were monumental injustices that can still stir up very painful memories today. I'm guessing that the majority of blacks in the U.S. have ancestors who were slaves, and I'm sure the hecklers are well aware that slavery existed in the U.S., and that Jim Crow laws were in effect less than 40 years ago, and that racism is unfortunately still alive and well in the U.S. and around the world.

Michael Richards' recent statement on his tirade: "I know that what I said hurt an African American...''

If some of you don't think that what Richards said was offensive, that's fine. But if the guy who got yelled at said he was hurt, and Richards admit that he hurt the guy, and a great many in the black community (and beyond) were offended by it, who are you to say that what Richards did wasn't so bad? It's fine if you personally weren't offended by Richards outburst, but to deny that what he did was legitimately hurtful doesn't seem right, in my opinion.

[Redtail]

Let's pretend this is even the tiniest bit relevant: it would depend on the talent level of the other person in question, wouldn't it? Oh well, life aint fair, big news.

PS I've seen less talented people than him make it big. You want to go off on this tangent - well first start another thread - but talk about people like Keanu Reeves or rap "musicians" or some such. Richards is way back in the line.


Think again.

On the contrary: I'm a bigger fan than ever and encourage others to be so as well. Not because I agree with what he did, but because I'm sick as hell of the double-standard. People think "cracka" is funny and "White Men Can't Jump" is a perfectly acceptable name for a movie? Then don't cry about......the word that all the morons are so freaked out about you can't even say it. :rolleyes: LOL @ our goofball society.


:rolleyes: :D

[bigred]

Yes, they are comparable. Perhaps one was more heinous than the other, but both the Holocaust and slavery in the U.S. were monumental injustices Resisting the temptation to compare the 2 beyond that broad similarity (as IMO there is no comparison)...yes they were; but that wasn't the comparison. You compared someone WHO LIVED THROUGH the Holocaust to some black guys who had at most distant ancestors who they never knew that lived through slavery. In fact I'm betting the blacks in question never even experienced Jim Crow laws. But now they want to sue because someone called them a bad name. boo hoo mommy.


that can still stir up very painful memories today. LOL - "memories" for who? Again not 100% but pretty sure the poor offended people in question aren't old enough to recall suffering under Jim Crow laws...and have a hunch they don't recall the terrible times of slavery. ie hypersensitive morons. Again if one didn't experience it, spare me the tears and sniffles; it's a joke, and an obscene one at that, in fact an affront to those who did. I wish I still had the letter from a black guy (and older one who might have experienced the Jim Crow stuff btw) who wrote a scathing letter to the local editor in response to an article about Sharpton or some similar moron demanding "slave reparations." Was a thing of beauty.


I'm guessing that the majority of blacks in the U.S. have ancestors who were slaves, and I'm sure the hecklers are well aware that slavery existed in the U.S., and that Jim Crow laws were in effect less than 40 years ago, ...and again none of which they likely experienced in the least. So?

Well wait....hey I'm aware of the horrors Christians suffered hundreds and thousands of years ago. I want reparations!!


and that racism is unfortunately still alive and well in the U.S. and around the world..Yes it is - on both sides of the fence. And I would submit at least as bad if not worse towards whites (not that I shed tears for them either). And really, for the purposes of this discussion, basically...BFD. Further I submit it's not nearly as bad as many would try to paint it. Things are WORLDS apart from just a few decades ago.



if the guy who got yelled at said he was hurt, and Richards admit that he hurt the guy, and a great many in the black community (and beyond) were offended by it, who are you to say that what Richards did wasn't so bad? I'm to say because it's true. What they're entitled to their opinion but not me to mine?

I'm throwing out the BS flag and well deservedly so. Who's to say I shouldn't? PS a great many in the black community (and beyond) are mindless hypocrites who would make this world a better place if they jumped off a cliff. (in fairness, ditto the racists)

[jimtron]

I'm to say because it's true. What they're entitled to their opinion but not me to mine?

Of course you're entitled to your opinion; that's why I said, "It's fine if you personally weren't offended by Richards outburst, but to deny that what he did was legitimately hurtful doesn't seem right, in my opinion. "

In your opinion, perhaps Richards' tirade was not offensive (or perhaps not--I don't want to speak for you). When I said "who are you to say..." what I meant was, who are you to say that the subject of Richards' outburst wasn't legitimately hurt by this? Again, Richards admits it was hurtful, and the guy who got yelled at said he was hurt.

[Dave1001]

Contrary to popular belief, most people are not attention whores of the lowest sort

I think a great natural experiment known as "the internet" presents some contrary data.

[Dave1001]

There are so many comics that have used similar language and imagery, both black and white, that I think there would be an element of scapegoating if this fate befell Richards.
There's a difference. When Andrew Dice Clay or Sarah Silverman or Don Rickles say racist jokes, it's part of a character or persona. It's part of the act (whether you like it or not). Richards was yelling these things, angrily, directly to a person or people in the audience. It wasn't part of the act.

I don't see how it's scapegoating. I never saw Don Rickles or Sarah Silverman or Chris Rock freak out and start verbally attacking audience members. That's why this incident is getting so much more attention than when comedians use material that deals with race.


In my opinion this is backwards justifying a difference in outcome for Richards vs. the many other comics and performers (including white ones) who have used the same language and similar racially charged imagery. I think the difference is audience perception of it being funny and entertaining rather than simply attacking.

[skeptifem]

Sue a black guy for being racist? LMAO

Honestly, I think some of you people live in Nepal or something. Clearly you haven't spent any time in America.

I live in america- did you hear about the lawsuit in new orleans about discrimination? The black district attorney fired all the white people and only hired blacks- they are in deep ****, and yes, white people are suing a black guy for being racist, and it looks like they won.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0F10FD385B0C728FDDAA0894DD4044 82&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fG% 2fGovernment%20Employees

[Minkster]

Personally, after viewing the tape several times I honestly think he started out 'in character', especially with the 'hanging upside down' line. In fact, if he had just said that and stopped there wouldn't be any news at all. The furore came about due to the repeated n-word references

And this is where I have a problem with this whole episode. There are too many unknowns. We don't reliably know what was said to Richards to cause the rant in the first place. We don't know if a previous part of his act that night discussed the reaction of specific words (which the 'you see, those words...' line would suggest).

What we do know is he went too far and eventually lost the audience and nosedived as a result. The taped words clearly show a racist rant however due to the 'unknowns' above, we can't say with any level of certainty whether or not he is a racist. I'd prefer to believe he isn't and the lengths he seems to be going to in order to make that clear would suggest that also.

Apparently Michael Richards doesn't have a routine at all. He isn't really a stand-up comic in the true sense of the word (comedic actor would be more appropriate) and relies on complete improvisation during his act. Most reports are that his act isn't that funny really and tends to focus on political issues such as Katrina and Iraq (which is probably why he mentioned them in the apology). Someone has described his act as 'rambling'. That sort of act combined with a comic who likes to 'push the envelope' is clearly a receipe for disaster.

What amuses me though is the attention on Richards' words that night in that club rather the institutional racism which is still reported to exist in many walks of life. The word 'scapegoat' comes to mind...

[Beerina]

Prediction: Richards will settle the suit just to get it out of the media and end this media circus.

Which is what Gloria All-red is all about, of course. She's trying to extort money from him because Seinfeld will put a ton of pressure on him since he's now potentially queering the sales of Seinfeld reruns -- hundreds of millions of dollars worth, if not billions. But he's carrying it off well, if you ask me, as well as could be expected, showing up on a Jesse Jackson show. A lot of people are mocking Gloria and her search for money, which is so brazen it's generating some limited sympathy for Kramer.

[bigred]

I think a great natural experiment known as "the internet" presents some contrary data.Do tell.

[bigred]

In your opinion, perhaps Richards' tirade was not offensive (or perhaps not--I don't want to speak for you). When I said "who are you to say..." what I meant was, who are you to say that the subject of Richards' outburst wasn't legitimately hurt by this? Again, Richards admits it was hurtful, and the guy who got yelled at said he was hurt.Thx for clarification; now I think I need to provide some. :cool: My point wasn't whether I did or didn't find what he said offensive to me (in fact I find the idea very strange, as it wasn't aimed at me and couldn't apply to me)....but that any claims of being "legitimately" hurt by this are both highly questionable and oh btw hypocritical as hell. He can call Richards "cracker" and that's OK but is emotionally distraught (sp) by the counter-punch? And I very seriously doubt he was anything more than a little PO'd about it. But hey, if he can get some free money out of it, oops what I meant was I'm so emotionally damaged....pain and suffering, yeah that's the ticket.

ie he/they are hypocritical aholes. That's what I'm saying. :)

[bigred]

I live in america- did you hear about the lawsuit in new orleans about discrimination? The black district attorney fired all the white people and only hired blacks- they are in deep ****, and yes, white people are suing a black guy for being racist, and it looks like they won.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0F10FD385B0C728FDDAA0894DD4044 82&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fG% 2fGovernment%20Employees
Thx for info and pardon me while I go have a heart attack.

Course it's sad - yet hardly surprising - that it took something so unbelievably extreme and blatant for someone to finally get that it goes both ways - and they're BOTH wrong.

Odd how you don't hear people decrying the racist attorney eh -

[Piggy]

Sue a black guy for being racist? LMAO

Honestly, I think some of you people live in Nepal or something. Clearly you haven't spent any time in America.
It was a rhetorical question. I think the whole idea of suing anyone for a racial slur is meritless.

[Piggy]

So now the comedy club has banned the word. And now, we are all being earnestly implored to ban this word from our speech entirely.

What a typical modern American reaction.

Things will change if we just talk a good game.

What a load of horse dung!

[Dave1001]

An interesting parody. Not that funny, but oddly therapeutic to watch:

http://nationallampoon.com/

[bigred]

So now the comedy club has banned the word. And now, we are all being earnestly implored to ban this word from our speech entirely.

What a typical modern American reaction.

Things will change if we just talk a good game.

What a load of horse dung!
As you say, classic Americana. Nothing new here.

[jimtron]

And now, we are all being earnestly implored to And now, we are all being earnestly implored to ban this word from our speech entirely..Could you cite a specific example of this? Who has implored you to "ban this word from (your) speech entirely?"

[Piggy]

Could you cite a specific example of this? Who has implored you to "ban this word from (your) speech entirely?"

Turn on your radio, or pick up the newspaper.

Or search for "ban the n-word" on Google News:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-me-richards28nov28,1,614331.story?coll=la-headlines-entnews
http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/id.4671/title.paul-mooney-asks-to-give-up-n-word

[bigred]

I think I'll use it now just to spit in the face of the PC Nazis.

Very quietly of course. ;)

[luchog]

I think I'll use it now just to spit in the face of the PC Nazis.

Very quietly of course. ;)

Right on dude!

I'm reclaiming "porch monkey". Who's with me?

[Budhess]

I havent read all the previous replies but what I can say is simply Richards doesnt look very sorry and honestly if you were told " You are not funny" when you very own livlihood was to make people laugh then it would be have detrimental effect on you, especially on a night at a pub... also honestly those boys had it coming to them! Why on earth would you bug a star, what its more than likely stars are uptight and arrogant ********. The only thing I dont agree with is the very content of Richards reaction, he could of swore all he wanted. just steer clear of religion race age sex and all the socially unaccepted jargon.
Richards didnt look sorry, he was sorry that he was caught for it :D

[Bill Thompson]

This man is not famous as being a stand-up comedian. You might not remember a competitor of "Saturday Night Live" called "Friday's". But this was where I remember first seeing this guy. He was doing sketch comedy. Later I recall seeing him in Weird Al Yankovic's movie called "UHF".

He is a physical comedian.

Now, I am sure these days since he has left "Seinfeld" he is feeling the pressure of his career running down.

I am not saying I support or justify what he has done. But I think anyone can crack under pressure and their judgment will go out and their rage can get the best of them.

Perhapse he could have gone off at anyone about anything. It just was his bad luck it was about social sensitivities.

[steverino]

I think the whole idea of suing anyone for a racial slur is meritless.

If a guy, a CEO of an office, was to call a female employee a "stinking whore bi@ch," in other words, a sexual slure, in front of other employees, wouldn't a lawsuit have merit?

I am not comfortable with saying "the whole idea of suing..." I think there is a time and a place for nothing at times.

[steverino]

I am Jewish(agnostic really) and from New York. I think it hypocritical of Rev. Jackson to get involved after calling New York Hyme town. If he said 1 time in public he must have thought that if not said it in private previously. Am I still in my time limit to sue?

The joke answer is you had 2 years. The real answer, in my humble opinion, is that a class action lawsuit might have had merit had Jackson been, say, the NYC mayor, and you and other Jews could prove his remark directly created an unhealthy work or lifestyle climate for you, if you lived or worked in NYC. Of course, you lawyers out there understand that anyone "is allowed" to sue anyone.

[davefoc]

If a guy, a CEO of an office, was to call a female employee a "stinking whore bi@ch," in other words, a sexual slure, in front of other employees, wouldn't a lawsuit have merit?

I am not comfortable with saying "the whole idea of suing..." I think there is a time and a place for nothing at times.

Not quite a valid analogy I think. Rightly or wrongly state and federal legislatures have seen fit to create laws which restrict employers and their managers from engaging in some kinds of harassing behavior. The key here is that the harasser has some power over the harassed individual. This was not the case in the club.

If there is any legitimate legal case against Richards, IMO, it would involve his implied agreement with the practice of lynching. This, might be interpreted as a physical threat I suppose. But I think it would be a tough sell, especially, given that the two men seem to have engaged in hostile or rude behavior before Richards went off.

My guess, is that there is no valid civil case against Richards on this (nor do I think there should be) and that Ms. Allred is mostly pursuing this case as a kind of shakedown with the hope of a settlement.

[bigred]

he could of swore all he wanted. just steer clear of religion race age sex and all the socially unaccepted jargon.
Not quite. He could have ripped on someone for religion, age, and sex all day long and nobody would bat an eye. Hell many would think that automatically makes it funny. And hey rip on whitey all day long, no problem. But racial slurs....towards a BLACK MAN?? GASP

:rolleyes: Ridiculous doesn't begin to describe race relations in our country.

[bigred]

If a guy, a CEO of an office, was to call a female employee a "stinking whore bi@ch," in other words, a sexual slure, in front of other employees, wouldn't a lawsuit have merit? If we're talking strictly on the grounds of being offended....

Morally? It's funny to even consider the possibility.

But legally? In this country? Easily.

[skeptifem]

^^You dont really know what you are talking about in regards to sexual harrassment. You would think with all the seminars people are forced to watch it would sink in.

[bigred]

^^You dont really know what you are talking about in regards to sexual harrassment. You would think with all the seminars people are forced to watch it would sink in.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension. :rolleyes: PS being in the military I've been bombarded with more of that BS than I care to remember. Not saying it's BS because it says "harrassement is bad" btw (I keep forgetting how you have to spell things out and repeat yourself around here.....)

[HeyLeroy]

How Michael Richards dealt with another heckler:
9xRybXzAGjY
Umm...yeah.

[bigred]

How Michael Richards dealt with another heckler:
9xRybXzAGjY
Umm...yeah.
Apparently this will come as a shock but that's not Richards. I know it's hard to tell they look so much alike and everything.

[HeyLeroy]

My bad, that doesn't appear to be Michael Richards.

[robinson]

Ironically, the publicity over Richards' tirade may help spur sales of "Seinfeld: Season 7" on DVD, which Jackson encouraged holiday shoppers to refrain from buying.

After less than a week on the market, it had zoomed to the 11th most popular DVD selling on Amazon.com.

Tom Adams, president of Adams Media Research, said it may have reminded shoppers that the DVD is now out. "Like they say in the entertainment industry, any ink is good ink."

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-me-richards28nov28,1,614331.story?coll=la-headlines-entnews&ctrack=1&cset=true

[bigred]

My bad, that doesn't appear to be Michael Richards.
ding ding we have a winner

;) Sorry I know I'm pushing it, but couldn't resist. I mean geez it's not even close......

[jimtron]

Ironically, the publicity over Richards' tirade may help spur sales of "Seinfeld: Season 7" on DVD, which Jackson encouraged holiday shoppers to refrain from buying.

After less than a week on the market, it had zoomed to the 11th most popular DVD selling on Amazon.com.

Tom Adams, president of Adams Media Research, said it may have reminded shoppers that the DVD is now out. "Like they say in the entertainment industry, any ink is good ink."

So much for the argument that this has/will destroy Richards' career.

[Piggy]

If a guy, a CEO of an office, was to call a female employee a "stinking whore bi@ch," in other words, a sexual slur, in front of other employees, wouldn't a lawsuit have merit?
Point taken. I painted with too broad a brush.

I don't think there's merit in bringing action on the sole basis of a racial slur, absent any other cause. When you start talking about employee-employer, especially actions taken in the presence of coworkers, then the latitude of "free speech" narrows considerably.

[firecoins]

So much for the argument that this has/will destroy Richards' career.
actually the Seinfeld season 7 sales are not the sole measurement of Richards' career. Richards will never be booked as a stand up comic, get a tv show and is unlikely to get studio film. At best, he could do something self produced.

[skeptifem]

You really need to work on your reading comprehension. :rolleyes: PS being in the military I've been bombarded with more of that BS than I care to remember. Not saying it's BS because it says "harrassement is bad" btw (I keep forgetting how you have to spell things out and repeat yourself around here.....)


No, I dont need to work on that. Someone put a hypothetical situation and asked if someone could win a sexual harrassment lawsuit, you said legally yes, and easily. What was I missing exactly?

[bigred]

No, I dont need to work on that.Yeah, you do. You really do. eg:

Someone put a hypothetical situation and asked if someone could win a sexual harrassment lawsuit, you said legally yes, and easily. What was I missing exactly?How about that they didn't ask if someone could WIN a sexual harrassment lawsuit, but if it would have merit.

My reply and point, which also wasn't exactly cryptic or subtle, was that such a lawsuit "has merit" from a legal perspective.

Capish?

[robinson]

*ahem* Capiche, capisce, or capicé

[slingblade]

I waited a day or so to see if anyone else would post this, or if anyone else would mention this:

Black Entertainer Endorses Moratorium on Slur (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120101700.html)

but I don't think anyone else did--unless I missed it somehow.

[WildCat]

And now the parody...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid271543886?bctid=335844850

Warning - NSFW!

[HeyLeroy]

ding ding we have a winner

;) Sorry I know I'm pushing it, but couldn't resist. I mean geez it's not even close......

The video's grainy, I had some beer in me and my glasses off. What more do you want?

[Region Rat]

The video's grainy, I had some beer in me and my glasses off. What more do you want?

One of your beers.

[Region Rat]

And now the parody...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid271543886?bctid=335844850

Warning - NSFW!

That is soooo funny.

[robinson]

Richards could use a lesson from Joe Rogan on dealing with hecklers. NSFW

http://www.filecabi.net/video/rogan-heckler.html

And now the parody...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid271543886?bctid=335844850

Warning - NSFW!

That is indeed funny.

[Piggy]

Ok, sorry to revive a zombie thread, and maybe this deserves its own thread, but I really want to know....

How many people here are actually offended (whatever that means) by hearing "the N-word"?

I mean seriously.

Me, I grew up with it. It was used all the time by blacks and whites. In fact, I heard it recently at the local Wal-Mart, spoken by a black man to a black woman. (Specifically, his response to her request that he take something she was carrying was "Tote it yourself, you old black n****r".)

This word has no shock value for me. It has no special status. It's on the same shelf with "hillbilly", "mick", "retard", and countless other playground taunts.

I honestly can't imagine what people are talking about when they say that this word produces some feeling of disgust or offense in them, or that it's somehow (magically, it seems) worse than any other purely linguistic insult.

So let's hear it... who is actually "offended" just by hearing this sound?

[jimtron]

So let's hear it... who is actually "offended" just by hearing this sound?

The "sound" of the word does not offend me (I'm pretty sure no one is offended by the "sound" of the word; it's the context, the history, and implications). I'm not offended by the word in certain contexts. In others, I am offended.

[bob_kark]

Words aren't just sounds that stumble from our mouth. They have meaning, history, and context. The fortunate thing about "the N word" is that simply by hearing someone speak it, you can rest assured there's no reason to continue to listen.

[jimtron]

I agree with Bob, above. The idea of people being offended by the "sound" of the word, or the word being inherently offensive, is a straw man argument, IMHO. See posts #78 and #116 for some previous discussions on this.

[BPSCG]

I used to have occasion to spend time with a self-proclaimed, and proud of it, redneck who was fond of the word. I always found it jarring, even when you expected certain "classes" of people to use it.

I finally said to him one day, "Look, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't use that word around me. I don't like hearing it."

He looked a bit surprised, but said, "Okay," and never used it again (in my presence, anyway), though he did occasionally tell me, "You know what I think..."

Fine, I can't control that, and wouldn't want to be able to. But I felt like I was doing my tiny part to clean up the world, or at least the part that was within earshot.

[slingblade]

So let's hear it... who is actually "offended" just by hearing this sound?


I am, Piggy, and you're usually.....well, you're usually smarter than this.
I hope this is not another attempt to shock people into answering; another devil's not-so-smart advocate ploy that others have been trying to pull here recently. It's so demeaning to us all. We don't need to be cattle-prodded into answering questions, provided the questions have merit. Even a little.

Maybe "offended" isn't the right term, but I do become upset at hearing these words used, most expecially if they're being tossed directly at a particular person and in public.

Perhaps I'm making assumptions I ought not to make, but I would think, Piggy, given your avatar, you'd understand what can happen to people of all ages who are called names? How horrible it can make them feel, how inadequate and outside-the-group. We are social animals, the majority of us, and to be shoved outside the group (far different from choosing to be outside) can make one doubt his self-worth, especially as a child.

No. I absolutely object to "playground insults." I am offended by them, whether they are used against me, or someone else. What really bothers me is that the one who is seen as immature is the one who is the target of the names. So being able to call people "retard" and "n**ger," and convince society to let you get away with it, is mature?

It's more than just "a sound," Piggy. I'm surprised.

[Piggy]

The fortunate thing about "the N word" is that simply by hearing someone speak it, you can rest assured there's no reason to continue to listen.
You're missing out on some very funny Richard Pryor routines.

[Piggy]

I am, Piggy, and you're usually.....well, you're usually smarter than this.
Thanks for the vote of confidence (not meant sarcastically, btw). But y'know, I'm smart in some ways, but very stupid in others, especially when it comes to emotional response and social cues. My emotional range is very limited. And I often have a hard time predicting how others will react to what I do or say, or even understanding their reactions in hindsight. That's why I will no longer take any job that involves dealing with the public, or even large numbers of colleagues, even if it means turning down a promotion.

I hope this is not another attempt to shock people into answering.
It's not. I really do want to know.

I can understand the feeling of having someone else attempt to humiliate me in front of other people, and being angry at that, and wanting to do something about it. But my sense is that the feeling of being "offended" is something rather different, and this thread has helped to confirm that idea.

Looking back, though, my post was rather belligerent, and I apologize for that.

Maybe "offended" isn't the right term, but I do become upset at hearing these words used, most expecially if they're being tossed directly at a particular person and in public.
Right, so why the special status of this word? Why, in a court of law, in which a double-murder by stabbing is discussed in detail and depicted in explicit photographs, is this sound deemed unpronounceable?

When we get to that point, we're in the realm of the absurd.

That's why I referred to it as a sound. I intentionally meant to make the distinction between, say, anger at personal insults in general, or at bigotry in general, or objection to attempts by one person to humiliate another, on the one hand, and a gut reaction of "offense" to merely hearing this word on the other, regardless of the context.

To my mind, much public reaction to the Richards incident falls in the latter category, as do the appeals we've seen for a blanket ban of the word in all comedy routines.

Perhaps I'm making assumptions I ought not to make, but I would think, Piggy, given your avatar, you'd understand what can happen to people of all ages who are called names?

Yes, you're making assumptions you ought not to make, but coincidentally you're not off the mark.

I chose Piggy b/c he was a rationalist in an irrational world, which is so often how I feel.

I wasn't the fat kid. I was a quad-A class swimmer.

But I was also homely, awkward (on land), painfully shy, and (by the time I started school) highly suspicious of other people -- my SOP was to assume that people wanted to hurt or ridicule me, regardless of any overt appearance of kindness, unless I had very good reason to believe otherwise.

Still, for many years, I tried to learn how to fit in. I always failed. Eventually, I realized that fitting in isn't possible for me. As Roger Rabbit would say, I'm not drawn that way. (I do associate with a very small group of people, maybe a couple dozen, most of whom have known me since early childhood.)

So yes, I know what it's like to be called names, to be singled out, to be marginalized, to be subject to a steady diet of humiliation.

But I also came to the conclusion that there's nothing in the words, especially epithets and expletives, and that if we can learn to control our emotional responses (or kill them, as I did -- which I don't recommend, btw) and calm our minds, it's possible to get beyond the hurt and understand that those who hurl insults for the purpose of humiliating others are revealing their own psychological damage.

I do remember, as a very young boy, walking with a black woman in the little milltown where I grew up. Someone in a passing car shouted "n****r" at her. I recall feeling pained for her, and embarrassed that I was there, being a child. But I also saw her dignity. And that silent dignity (which certainly was not what I saw at home between my parents, who fought and insulted each other whenever my father was at home) taught me more than anyone else had.

So being able to call people "retard" and "n**ger," and convince society to let you get away with it, is mature?
It can be, although it usually is not. Let's not forget people like Lenny Bruce, who paid a high price for the freedom to be "obscene". Hey, it comes with the territory of free speech.

------------

Off-topic, but related to some of what I wrote above.... I'm afraid I won't be around to read any more responses here. I've been a member of a couple of other boards, and there always comes a point where I no longer feel anonymous. I say too much. Then it no longer feels like posting messages, and starts to feel like social interaction, which makes me very uncomfortable.

So, although this is a great group of people, and I admire what JREF and the majority of board members are doing for the cause of reason, it's no longer possible for me to enjoy participating like I used to. I logged on this session in order to terminate my account, which I'll do in a few minutes.

I never did get around to starting a thread on Hawking's quantum cosmology. That's a shame b/c I had so many questions that I'm sure some folks here could answer.

Thanks for everything, y'all.

Take care. -Piggy

[pipelineaudio]

Bah, well miss your tinfoil hat paranoia piggy :(

Maybe you can come back soon with a new name! You cant leave the simian language thread to you know who...

[dann]

I finally said to him one day, "Look, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't use that word around me. I don't like hearing it."

He looked a bit surprised, but said, "Okay," and never used it again (in my presence, anyway), though he did occasionally tell me, "You know what I think..."

Fine, I can't control (!) that, and wouldn't want to be able to. But I felt like I was doing my tiny part to clean up the world, or at least the part that was within earshot. (My (!), dann)I don't know ...
So the redneck keeps thinking the way he does, racism continues, but your linguistic sensibilities are no longer offended by the word, and everybody is happy and the world's a nicer, cleaner place. It sums up the discussion of the N word and other similar words.

[bob_kark]

Right, so why the special status of this word? Why, in a court of law, in which a double-murder by stabbing is discussed in detail and depicted in explicit photographs, is this sound deemed unpronounceable?

When we get to that point, we're in the realm of the absurd.

That's why I referred to it as a sound. I intentionally meant to make the distinction between, say, anger at personal insults in general, or at bigotry in general, or objection to attempts by one person to humiliate another, on the one hand, and a gut reaction of "offense" to merely hearing this word on the other, regardless of the context.

To my mind, much public reaction to the Richards incident falls in the latter category, as do the appeals we've seen for a blanket ban of the word in all comedy routines.
I may be misunderstanding the point you're trying to make. However, even if there is a black man who is evil bastage personified, it is still unacceptable to use the word because it doesn't just effect him, it effects everyone due to it's connotations. It would be like saying "that Jewish guy who killed those children should be sent to Auschwitz!" Which I hope you would see as an outrageous statement.

When it comes down to it, is it the most evil word ever spoken? Able to bring children nightmares and grown men to tears? No. However, is there so much history, so great a negative context that it would be wise simply to never use the word and avoid confrontation? Most definitely. That's advice I'd even give to Richard Pryor, as funny as he is.

------------

Off-topic, but related to some of what I wrote above.... I'm afraid I won't be around to read any more responses here. I've been a member of a couple of other boards, and there always comes a point where I no longer feel anonymous. I say too much. Then it no longer feels like posting messages, and starts to feel like social interaction, which makes me very uncomfortable.

So, although this is a great group of people, and I admire what JREF and the majority of board members are doing for the cause of reason, it's no longer possible for me to enjoy participating like I used to. I logged on this session in order to terminate my account, which I'll do in a few minutes.

I never did get around to starting a thread on Hawking's quantum cosmology. That's a shame b/c I had so many questions that I'm sure some folks here could answer.

Thanks for everything, y'all.

Take care. -Piggy
As someone, who for whatever reason, frequently shares his unpopular opinions, I encourage you not to leave. The most wonderful thing about this website is that it offers the opportunity to see someone else's opinion and to learn more not only about the subject at hand, but about yourself. I feel that I've actually grown as a person by contributing to these conversations. Positions I felt I strongly held have changed due to many of the debates on this forum.

I have to say Piggy, your reputation here proceeds you. That's actually a great thing though. I know many people here greatly respect your opinion. A simple disagreement here and there will not change that. I certainly haven't changed my opinion of you simply because I disagree with you. If Susskind and Hawking can still be great friends, why can't we all agree to disagree?

[Katana]

As someone, who for whatever reason, frequently shares his unpopular opinions, I encourage you not to leave. The most wonderful thing about this website is that it offers the opportunity to see someone else's opinion and to learn more not only about the subject at hand, but about yourself. I feel that I've actually grown as a person by contributing to these conversations. Positions I felt I strongly held have changed due to many of the debates on this forum.

I have to say Piggy, your reputation here proceeds you. That's actually a great thing though. I know many people here greatly respect your opinion. A simple disagreement here and there will not change that. I certainly haven't changed my opinion of you simply because I disagree with you. If Susskind and Hawking can still be great friends, why can't we all agree to disagree?

While I would like to agree with you, I cannot because you are a Colts fan.

Go Bears!

:duck:

[Actually, that was well-said, bob_kark, and I agree. ;)]

Don't go, Piggy!

[Piggy]

Hi, y'all. I checked back in b/c the admins needed a response before unregistering me. So one more round....

I may be misunderstanding the point you're trying to make. However, even if there is a black man who is evil bastage personified, it is still unacceptable to use the word because it doesn't just effect him, it effects everyone due to it's connotations. It would be like saying "that Jewish guy who killed those children should be sent to Auschwitz!" Which I hope you would see as an outrageous statement.
I think you must be misunderstanding my point about the OJ trial.

OJ's alleged crime was the brutal murder of 2 people. The court had no qualm about describing the details and showing photographs of this very real and painful event. Yet when it came to testimony regarding Mark Fuhrman's alleged racial bias, grown men and women in a court of law are reduced to saying "the n-word" as if they were children telling the teacher what a classmate had said. That's absurd, and it speaks to the special status this word has somehow acquired. If Fuhrman had called black people "jungle bunnies", do you really think anyone would feel obliged to refer to this term as "the j-word"?

And if you notice, the term is not starred out on this board, as is the word "n****r", yet they are equally demeaning.

But which is more demeaning, in the following 2 scenarios, spoken to a young black man applying for college:

"Boy, what are you bothering with college for? N****rs don't belong in college."

"I wouldn't advise you to apply for college. Research shows that African Americans are not as well suited for academics as whites (perhaps you've heard of "The Bell Curve") so you would be at an immediate disadvantage and are not likely to graduate at the top of your class. Instead, you'd be better off going into the workforce right away so you can start generating income and earning seniority at a trade."

I submit that the second is more damaging.

However, is there so much history, so great a negative context that it would be wise simply to never use the word and avoid confrontation? Most definitely. That's advice I'd even give to Richard Pryor, as funny as he is.
I disagree. Somtimes the word with the emotional charge is the one you need, and no substitute will do. Very rarely, for instance, do I have cause to use phrases like "You're a total f*****g idiot," but if that's what I really mean, that's what I say.

I think it would be a great loss if, for instance, Chris Rock's bit on "n*****s and black people" had never seen the light of day.

If Susskind and Hawking can still be great friends, why can't we all agree to disagree?
That's not why I'm leaving. If that were the case, I'd have bailed out halfway thru the Sagan's Dragon thread. ;) I've had a great experience here, have learned a lot, and had my mind changed on many points. In fact, this board has been a welcome oasis from the intellectual desert I inhabit IRL.

The problem is, I'm starting to feel like people here know me now. And I'm very uncomfortable with that. I used to joke (half-joke, actually) that I had to leave a town when more than 3 people had seen me naked.

I've overcome my shyness to a great extent, but that's been generally achieved by creating personas and performing those characters when I have to be in contact with other people. If I have to drop the persona and talk about my actual life, even the most mundane parts, I get very cold and start to shake. It's extremely unpleasant.

My long absence wasn't only due to all the other work I have on my plate lately. It also came from a feeling of overexposure, of the sense that some people here may be seeing beyond Piggy and to a certain extent into Ernie. That's not something I can tolerate.

Thanks for the encouragement, though. Maybe I'll see some of y'all around somewhere.

[OMGturt1es]

Thanks for the encouragement, though. Maybe I'll see some of y'all around somewhere.

i don't post often. mainly, i just lurk and read.

i've enjoyed your posts, piggy. for selfish reasons, i hope you stick around. i can tell you that i don't think i have any grasp on who you are in real life, nor do i necessarily care. i enjoy your contributions to arguments, though.

regardless, i wish you the best.

[Piggy]

Thanks, turtles. I do enjoy vigorous debate, and I hope that I've made some small contribution here other than to get under folks' skin. But I gotta go.

Tonight, though, I'm going to watch a little documentary called "The N Word (http://imdb.com/title/tt0417003/)". Decided to get a video, and as usual went to the documentary section first, and this was new on the shelf!

Cheers -Piggy

[OMGturt1es]

Thanks, turtles. I do enjoy vigorous debate, and I hope that I've made some small contribution here other than to get under folks' skin. But I gotta go.

Tonight, though, I'm going to watch a little documentary called "The N Word (http://imdb.com/title/tt0417003/)". Decided to get a video, and as usual went to the documentary section first, and this was new on the shelf!

Cheers -Piggy

looks like an interesting video. you should at least stick around long enough to post your thoughts on it here...

[Piggy]

looks like an interesting video. you should at least stick around long enough to post your thoughts on it here...
Well, I'm on borrowed time now. I'll be unregistered whenever the admins get around to it. But I decided to log on and, if I could still post, and say something about the film.

I recommend it, if you're interested in the topic. A very wide variety of opinion, but taken all together it provides a decent thumbnail retrospective on how we got here, and the current state of the art, so to speak.

What I found most amusing, and one of the more prevalent themes of the interviews, was the discussion of white and Asian kids adopting the term in a more or less value-neutral way as a badge of hip-hop culture cool -- as in, calling each other "my n***a" and such. To me, that's just laughable, but then again, it's not a culture I'm in any contact with. Some saw that as a sign of mere ignorance, others as a sign of victory (that the word has lost so much power as to be on a par with "man", "dog", or "buddy").

The most surprising bit, to me, was Whoopi Goldberg saying she couldn't recall ever being called a n****r, by anyone. She said, "But I'm from New York City, and who's gonna call you a n***r in New York City?"

The statement I most identified with came from a man who said that by the time he first heard it spoken to him as an insult, it had no power, because he'd already heard it so much. That may seem odd, because obviously my family never called each other that, as his did, and obviously no one's ever attempted to insult me with the word either. But I knew what he meant. I grew up hearing the word used in a wide range of contexts, from kids' rhymes (when we counted eenie-meenie-miney-mo, it wasn't a tiger that was caught by his toe), to racial jokes, to hatespeech, to slang (e.g., a Brazil nut was often called a n***r-toe), to simple term of address (didn't hear it that way til I went to school b/c housing in my town was segregated).

So for me, it's like the term SOB in "The Virginian" (of "smile when you say that" fame) or Joe Jackson's admonishment, "Don't call me a faggot unless you are a friend." It's all about set and setting (attitude and context), and it makes no sense to condemn the use of the word without reference to that.

And as some in the film pointed out, the objection to the word in my household had nothing to do with any liberal ideas about race, but rather that the word was low-class. My mother didn't want us using racial slurs and profanity at home or in mixed company, but then again she didn't want us saying "ain't" or "whatcha doin" either.

My grandmothers, however, were a different story altogether. My father's mother, a strict Methodist in the old school sense, wouldn't have dreamed of using it, and actually did have very liberal ideas about race. My mother's mother would use it in public, in the presence of black people, and not think twice. My stepfather's mother, a native of that little milltown I grew up in, had inherited rental property from her husband, and used to say things like, "I have to go collect the rent from my nigras".

I guess when you grow up in a culture where the term has such wide usage, where it can be insulting, empowering, a weapon of exclusion, a badge of inclusion, and everything in between, it's just hard to understand the monolithic attitude that "It's insulting and shouldn't be used". And that's why, from my perspective, people who hold that view are indeed merely reacting to the sound, rather than actually considering the word.