Anyone lost any freedoms?

[JAStewart]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

1.
2.
3.

...

[Pardalis]

...

[NickUK]

My keyboard lost the freedom to not get smashed against my desk when I watched LC for the first time.

[Mercutio]

As a behaviorist, I never had any freedoms to begin with.

[PerryLogan]

"As a behaviorist, I never had any freedoms to begin with."

Don't mind Mercutio. He can't help himself.

The illusion of freedom then...

Freedom from false accusation and character assassination. You lose it when you criticize a Troofer. Also freedom of privacy.

Freedom of speech, when they throw you out of their forums.
Freedom of speech again, when they drown you out with their bullhorns.
The freedom to hear both sides of the story--not generally allowed amongst the Trutherwuthers.

[Oliver]

As a behaviorist, I never had any freedoms to begin with.

Dear Mr. Mercutio. I´m sorry for this side comment
but would you like to introduce yourself a littlebit, too?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68826

Sincerely,
Oliver :)

[Brainster]

I know that I've lost the ability to receive calls from Al Qaeda members around the world without my phone being tapped.

[Donal]

I lost my right to paaaaarty.

I may have to fight for it.

[Bell]

I've lost the freedom of doing my job without the police knowing what the hell I'm doing. But that might actually have to do with the fact that I work with the police?

[PerryLogan]

Habeas corpus is on the slab.
You can have freedom of speech--but only in certain zones.
The wrong T-shirt, not to mention the wrong words, can get you arrested.
Your privacy is largely gone.
The right to vote is barely a breath on a mirror.
The press corps exist in a state of perpetual fear.
Whistleblowers live in terror.
Laws passed by your elected representatives get rewritten by the President, just like that.
Safe abortions are harder and harder to get.
We know we're screwed if there's another hurricane.
You can join the Army, but you may not be able to leave it.
Most of us want a healthcare system, but they won't do anything
Most of us want the President and Vice-President impeached, but they won't do it.
If you're on life support, Congress may intervene to keep you plugged in.
You might want to watch what books you check out of the library.
The U.S. is so deeply in debt we cannot even declare war without the OK of foreign investors.
The only opinions on TV are those of crazy white guys.
Institutions designed to protect us are now hurting us.
The infant mortality rate is going up for the first time in forty years.
Most of our electoral districts are gerrymandered, so our votes barely count.
Sometimes the machines flip the votes right in front of our eyes.
Torture is now national policy.
Democracy has been pared to the bone.
Thousands of people have died.

Other than that we're fine.

[Pardalis]

Everything is fine here in Canada/Québec. Maybe the loss of freedom was limited to Ground Zero, were people lost their freedom to live...

[rwguinn]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

1.
2.
3.

...
I lost an original Cassett tape. Does that count?

[progressquest]

This guy lost his right to yell in a library without getting tasered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E

[Dog Town]

This guy lost his right to yell in a library without getting tasered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E

Not a right, and served the punk right!

[Darth Rotor]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

1.
2.
3.

...
Freedom to bring my nail clippers with on a plane.
Freedom to bring my lighter with me on a plane
Freedom from being harassed by f***wits at the airport. At least the Hari Krishnas were polite.
Freedom from same f***wits harassing my 76 year old mother at airports.

So, I don't do air travel anymore, unless I am absoutely required to by my job and the boss is paying. Funny thing, I have slightly increased the number of telecons and VTC's, and wasted a whole lot less time in airports waiting for OJ to run by on his way to the Hertz counter.

The hotel, rent-a-car, and airline companies can all blow me.

DR

[Oliver]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

1.
2.
3.

...

I live in germany. So i did not lost any freedom and
there is no NWO at all. The only thing i lost are some
nerves because these freedom-claims. I don´t even
know why everyone is whining. Kick the neocon @sses
in 2008 and the problems are gone. Wrong? :confused:

[LibraryLady]

I have lost the freedom to protect the privacy of my patrons.

My patrons have lost their right to keep their reading preferences to themselves.

[joemailman]

You live in a culture of permissible behavior. You are allowed to behave a bit more freely in this culture than in others, perhaps, but still there are restrictions and that being so there is no such thing as freedom....only the permissible range of behavior. You are also far less free if you are of the wrong color skin, facial features, weight, gender, or some other feature such as background, creed, nationality, etc. etc. The myth of freedom is what many morons (like your prez) in this country live with and brag about. The rest of the world knows and sees quite clearly just how full of Bullsh#t American braggarts are.

[Oliver]

You live in a culture of permissible behavior. You are allowed to behave a bit more freely in this culture than in others, perhaps, but still there are restrictions and that being so there is no such thing as freedom....only the permissible range of behavior. You are also far less free if you are of the wrong color skin, facial features, weight, gender, or some other feature such as background, creed, nationality, etc. etc. The myth of freedom is what many morons (like your prez) in this country live with and brag about. The rest of the world knows and sees quite clearly just how full of Bullsh#t American braggarts are.

May i ask: "Where do you come from"?

[TruthSeeker1234]

Off the top of my head . . .


I lost the right to own and operate a private airport security company.
I lost the right to keep that portion of my income which has now been spent on various wars.
I lost the right to a jury trial if accused of being an "enemy combatant".
I lost the right to speak on the telephone without being monitored by warrantless government agents
I lost the right to speak via email without being monitored by warrantless government agents
Airlines lost the right to allow their customers to bring liquids on board
I lost the right to be free of government agents monitoring my behavior if I belong to a religious or political organization.
I lost the right to keep my library records confidential from government agents

[Carnivore]

In Britain we are rapidly losing the right to privacy. The current government's postion is that it has the right to track and record the movement, spending, internet use and medical treatment of every citizen, as well as store their biometric data. This information is potentially going to be available to thousands of state employees in many different agencies. They are also reducing our right to freedom of information. The attacks on the freedoms of law abiding firearm owners are ongoing.The right to free speech is on the way out, criticizing religion is being considered a crime, political protest has been made illegal in the vicinity of Parliament. The tabloid press is openly attacking civil liberties and human rights laws as inconveniences foisted on us by foriegners as a way to prevent the police from locking up them as deserve it.

Call me a crazy paranoid CTer, but the in the short time I've lived in this country, it's trend towards removing power from the individual and bestowing it on the state seems fairly obvious. IMO, Tony Blair is instinctively authoritarian. He feels that he knows best and therefore he ought to have the power to order us all into line.

ETA I seem to have popped this right under TS1234s post. Please note I do not agree with any of TS 1234s posted opinions on government conspiracies. My opinion is that the UK trends I have observed are partly the result of the various terrorist attacks, NOT part of the cause of any terrorist attack.

[Garb]

You live in a culture of permissible behavior. You are allowed to behave a bit more freely in this culture than in others, perhaps, but still there are restrictions and that being so there is no such thing as freedom....only the permissible range of behavior. You are also far less free if you are of the wrong color skin, facial features, weight, gender, or some other feature such as background, creed, nationality, etc. etc. The myth of freedom is what many morons (like your prez) in this country live with and brag about. The rest of the world knows and sees quite clearly just how full of Bullsh#t American braggarts are.

Yes, a fat bearded guy doesn't get many rights these days.

[Garb]

Off the top of my head . . .


I lost the right to own and operate a private airport security company.
I lost the right to keep that portion of my income which has now been spent on various wars.
I lost the right to a jury trial if accused of being an "enemy combatant".
I lost the right to speak on the telephone without being monitored by warrantless government agents
I lost the right to speak via email without being monitored by warrantless government agents
Airlines lost the right to allow their customers to bring liquids on board
I lost the right to be free of government agents monitoring my behavior if I belong to a religious or political organization.
I lost the right to keep my library records confidential from government agents

Serious question: How many and which phone calls are monitered by the government?

If I remember correctly only those suspected of terrorism had their conversations tapped.

Although it doesn't concern me that much either way, I have nothing to hide. Perhaps when I rob a bank and want to brag about it over the phone, then I will be against it.

[FramerDave]

Freedom to bring my nail clippers with on a plane.
Freedom to bring my lighter with me on a plane
Freedom from being harassed by f***wits at the airport. At least the Hari Krishnas were polite.
Freedom from same f***wits harassing my 76 year old mother at airports.




Your right to travel freely without having to show travel papers or get permission is a basic freedom here in the US. You, I, anyone here on the JREF forum or anywhere else can pack a bag and head off to any place we want to.

However, nowhere is it written that you can just waltz onto a plane without following basic rules that govern equally. There are rules and regulations everyone must follow, and they are put into place to protect you and your fellow passengers. Granted, they don't always make the most sense (frisking 76 year old grandmothers) and some of the people enforcing them are total idiots, but that's the price we all pay for the ability to fly.

I might also add that the airlines are businesses and not government entities. If someone has the ability to pay and plays by the rules, they are welcome to fly. Otherwise the airlines are free to tell anyone to piss off.

So boo hoo, you don't like going through security at the airports. Don't fly.

You're perfectly free to tavel any other way you wish. Just remember though that if you want to drive you have to demonstrate to the government your ability to drive, and you have to play by the rules of the roads. Rights always come with responsibilities.

eta: And before you start whining about all your lost rights, you might want to check out this link and see what your rights really are: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html

[joemailman]

Interesting question! My mother's womb? My father's groin? Oh I see! You're asking what nationality I am! Well I happen to have been born in Miami Fla, USA but what does that have to do with the concept of "freedom"????

[Oliver]

In Britain we are rapidly losing the right to privacy. The current government's postion is that it has the right to track and record the movement, spending, internet use and medical treatment of every citizen, as well as store their biometric data. This information is potentially going to be available to thousands of state employees in many different agencies. They are also reducing our right to freedom of information. The attacks on the freedoms of law abiding firearm owners are ongoing.The right to free speech is on the way out, criticizing religion is being considered a crime, political protest has been made illegal in the vicinity of Parliament. The tabloid press is openly attacking civil liberties and human rights laws as inconveniences foisted on us by foriegners as a way to prevent the police from locking up them as deserve it.

Call me a crazy paranoid CTer, but the in the short time I've lived in this country, it's trend towards removing power from the individual and bestowing it on the state seems fairly obvious. IMO, Tony Blair is instinctively authoritarian. He feels that he knows best and therefore he ought to have the power to order us all into line.

Mhmm, this could be a reason for Pdoherty´s behavior.
Is it so bad over there? I mean you just live some kilometers
away and there is such a big difference? BTW: Blair acts a
littlebit like some gay people i know. Is this a coincidence?

[Pardalis]

Loss of library record privacy... Such a pain...

[Dog Town]

The rest of the world knows and sees quite clearly just how full of Bullsh#t American braggarts are

40 million illegals can't be wrong. Plus the other 40 mill in waiting, from all 4 corners of the globe. It must really suck elsewhere! I am guessing it is where you live! I have lost no "freedoms"! The US has it soo good, there are lots of jelous folks, the world over. I am from Texas originally. When growing up, mothers raise their kids, on never asking people where they are from. If they are from Texas... they will tell you, if not, you don't wanna ebarrass them! LOL! Lighten up Francis....

ETA: Ah Florida...I understand now!

[Oliver]

Interesting question! My mother's womb? My father's groin? Oh I see! You're asking what nationality I am! Well I happen to have been born in Miami Fla, USA but what does that have to do with the concept of "freedom"????

So what´s your definition of freedom? To bomb public buildings?
I mean having to show your passport at the airport or at the
borders is a useful thing in my opinion to prevent terror-attacks.

Wrong?

[Pardalis]

Airlines lost the right to allow their customers to bring liquids on board

Tell me Truthseeker, how does this one play in the NWO scheme?

[FramerDave]

BTW: Blair acts a littlebit like some gay people i know. Is this a coincidence?

Don't read too much into it. He's English.

[Carnivore]

Mhmm, this could be a reason for Pdoherty´s behavior.
Is it so bad over there? I mean you just live some kilometers
away and there is such a big difference? BTW: Blair acts a
littlebit like some gay people i know. Is this a coincidence?

I think it certainly has the potential to become bad. There is an awful lot of power concentrated in the executive here. I guess it depends on how much you trust the government (and it's successors) to use this power both benignly and competently. For me, thats not very much. I would prefer to have more checks and balances on executive power in this country.

[katsu]

Serious question: How many and which phone calls are monitered by the government?

If I remember correctly only those suspected of terrorism had their conversations tapped.

I think the point is if the government claims you're a terrorist, they can listen in without a warrant. And because they're doing it without the warrant, they don't have to prove that you are a terrorist.

I don't really trust the good will of the government when they can do what they like by slapping the appropriate label on someone. I'd like to think that there are responsible adults in charge of our country that wouldn't dream of violating the rights of anyone that wasn't a bad person, but... do I really have to say any more?

I have nothing to hide either, but until the government is willing to have the same level of transparency it's demanding of its citizens, it can suck my toe.

[joemailman]

No Oliver you're not wrong. It's just that each idea has a definition and semantic meaning. A need for definitions is just as important as the idea expressed. Also the population of this nation just as it is in other nations has predjudices and values that are at odds with others in the same community. Freedom is an illusion just as gods and ghosts are illusions. The only reality is that which is measurable and verifiable. As to the arguement that you need not have any papers to travel wth, htat is simply not true. You must carry with you identification papers of some kind or you will be suspect even if the suspicion leads you to a mere inconvenience of being detained for a short time until you are free from it. If you are different in some way from the norm you will be inconvenienced even more. If you do not believe me then try walking down a ghetto street in Miami ( in the black neighborhoods) without id and see if a white policeman doesn't take you in or harrass you for being there "inappropriately". :eek:

[Crossbow]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

1.
2.
3.

...

That is a great question!

And to answer, I personally have not lost any freedoms.

Then again, I also know that freedom is often the type of thing that one does not appreciate until it is lost.

For example, if Amendment I of the US Constitution was eliminated today, then it would make no difference to me since I am rather unreligious to begin with.

By the same token, the USA having secret prisons and torture centers around the world does not affect me directly since it is quite unlikely that I would ever be sent to such a place.

However, by legally restricting the most private and personal of practices (such as religious worship), and by the government of the USA creating places where the laws of the USA do not apply make it far, far easier for the government to remove the freedoms that I have a great deal of appreciation for.

The loss of freedom for one makes for the loss of freedom of all.

[Oliver]

I think it certainly has the potential to become bad. There is an awful lot of power concentrated in the executive here. I guess it depends on how much you trust the government (and it's successors) to use this power both benignly and competently. For me, thats not very much. I would prefer to have more checks and balances on executive power in this country.

Mhmm, i don´t know how to change this problem.
Maybe it has something to do with the "democratic
system" over there? Do you believe that other people
agree with you and there will be a change because of
these freedom changes at the next elections?

[Garb]

I think the point is if the government claims you're a terrorist, they can listen in without a warrant. And because they're doing it without the warrant, they don't have to prove that you are a terrorist.

I don't really trust the good will of the government when they can do what they like by slapping the appropriate label on someone. I'd like to think that there are responsible adults in charge of our country that wouldn't dream of violating the rights of anyone that wasn't a bad person, but... do I really have to say any more?

I have nothing to hide either, but until the government is willing to have the same level of transparency it's demanding of its citizens, it can suck my toe.

I don't think the government is doing the wire-tapping with an "evil" agenda. I don't see what they would have to gain from tapping into whatever conversation they want.

And I'm pretty sure the government doesn't have too much of a choice with the transparency. Anyone remember our buddy Bill a few years ago?

[Garb]

No Oliver you're not wrong. It's just that each idea has a definition and semantic meaning. A need for definitions is just as important as the idea expressed. Also the population of this nation just as it is in other nations has predjudices and values that are at odds with others in the same community. Freedom is an illusion just as gods and ghosts are illusions. The only reality is that which is measurable and verifiable. As to the arguement that you need not have any papers to travel wth, htat is simply not true. You must carry with you identification papers of some kind or you will be suspect even if the suspicion leads you to a mere inconvenience of being detained for a short time until you are free from it. If you are different in some way from the norm you will be inconvenienced even more. If you do not believe me then try walking down a ghetto street in Miami ( in the black neighborhoods) without id and see if a white policeman doesn't take you in or harrass you for being there "inappropriately". :eek:

Well when the minority carries out the majority of crimes in a country, can you blame them?

[Pardalis]

If you do not believe me then try walking down a ghetto street in Miami ( in the black neighborhoods) without id and see if a white policeman doesn't take you in or harrass you for being there "inappropriately". :eek:

Wouldn't police surveilance be tougher in a ghetto because... it is a ghetto?

And wouldn't the chance of a black person being stopped be more likely because... it is a black neighborhood?

[Oliver]

No Oliver you're not wrong. It's just that each idea has a definition and semantic meaning. A need for definitions is just as important as the idea expressed. Also the population of this nation just as it is in other nations has predjudices and values that are at odds with others in the same community. Freedom is an illusion just as gods and ghosts are illusions. The only reality is that which is measurable and verifiable. As to the arguement that you need not have any papers to travel wth, htat is simply not true. You must carry with you identification papers of some kind or you will be suspect even if the suspicion leads you to a mere inconvenience of being detained for a short time until you are free from it. If you are different in some way from the norm you will be inconvenienced even more. If you do not believe me then try walking down a ghetto street in Miami ( in the black neighborhoods) without id and see if a white policeman doesn't take you in or harrass you for being there "inappropriately". :eek:

You also have to travel with your ID-Card here. So
the Police has no problems to identify you if you make
some trouble or if your driving in wiggly lines with your
car. For me this is no problem at all because i see the
reason for this law. However - you will not be detained
if you don´t travel with your ID but you have to show
it within a given time if you did not make trouble or
were drunk.

Well, i don´t think that freedom is an illusion because
we have 13 parties here and everyone is whining about
the other parties - in most cases. So your idea may
be coherently with the two-party-system because i
feel pretty free here as long i don´t start to say that
the government are killers without any proofs...

- Oliver

[joemailman]

Actually what you say is correct but we're talking about the concept of freedom. Does it exist or not. I've suggested that it does not. Everything on this planet is controled and influenced by something or many things. Power in cultures carries with it the need to control which means simply that freedom is a rediculous way of suggesting that somehow you will be unaffected by those who control this or any culture. Freedom means "that which without influences"....Period. To be "free-er" can be a reality but there is also the reality of other kinds of control such as suspicions by member of your community who see, hear and whatch what you do. You are as free as your community wishes you to be. Infringe on their values or their mores and you can expect some kind of reaction. Everything depends on what you are allowed to say and do coupled with where you are and who you are with.

[Ben Tilly]

Serious question: How many and which phone calls are monitered by the government?

All of them. Unless you're lucky enough to be using QWEST. I can't post links yet, but add http in front of www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1948927&page=1 to see the story.

If I remember correctly only those suspected of terrorism had their conversations tapped.

Monitored does not mean tapped. It means that they record who called whom and for how long. If they have more interest, then they start tapping.

Note that it is information of exactly this sort that HP was trying to get about their board by pretexting. You may have heard about the result - you know, the CEO of HP was forced to step down and California is considering who to file criminal charges against. But when it is done to all of us by our government, well...

BTW would you care to bet that Karl Rove can't get access to some of this data? You know, just enough to use it like HP did? I wouldn't...

Although it doesn't concern me that much either way, I have nothing to hide. Perhaps when I rob a bank and want to brag about it over the phone, then I will be against it.

Ah yes. The old, "If you're innocent, then what do you have to worry about?" comment.

Well I'm an atheist. That means that I'm part of one an intensely disliked minorities in the country. (The current President's father is of the stated opinion that he doesn't think we can be true citizens or patriots of the USA!) If we continue down the path towards fascism, I fear that I need be guilty of nothing more to become a target.

On a more immediate level, see my comment above about Karl Rove. The knowledge that government collects and monitors this kind of data has a chilling effect on whisteblowers of various kinds. This undermines our ability to believe we have a free society. If this doesn't matter to you, then I can only say that you neither understand nor value freedom.

Cheers,
Ben

[Pardalis]

You are as free as your community wishes you to be.

But you are free to move to another community, if the one you are currently in doesn't suit you. ;)

[Gravy]

You also have to travel with your ID-Card here. So
the Police has no problems to identify you if you make
some trouble or if your driving in wiggly lines with your
car.That's the law here for drivers, who must have a driver license in order to operate a motor vehicle on public roadways. Others are not required to have ID on them. Joemailman is wrong about that. There is no law against me walking down the street without ID.

It's an interesting question, but I'm going to ask that this thread be moved to politics/current events.

[joemailman]

Ben, I couldn't agree with you more. Remember Dr Newdow? All that is required for anyone to become a target is for the government or those who are responsible for reps being in their position to have an agenda. the McCarthy years come to mind. Spying and violent harrassment during the Vit Nam years also. M. L King paid the price for his words of freedom and justice for his race of people. R Kennedy paid the price. And you can bet that there have been thosands of people throughout US history who have paid dearly for their wish to be left alone or to do something significant.

This idea of freedom is like the idea of absolutism or certainty. The english language like languages all over thisk planet are so simited in thir scope that they must resort to fiction of many kinds in order to be functional or even semi-functional.

[joemailman]

[quote=Gravy;2112558]That's the law here for drivers, who must have a driver license in order to operate a motor vehicle on public roadways. Others are not required to have ID on them. Joemailman is wrong about that. There is no law against me walking down the street without ID.

I wasn't speaking of laws or restrictions. Only of the concept of freedom.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Haven't americans regained the freedom to have more than 10 bullets in thier gun at any time since 9-11?

[Pardalis]

Well, I prefer the "relative" freedom of Canada and the US than the one the Islamic fascists like al Qaida want to impose on the world...

[Carnivore]

Mhmm, i don´t know how to change this problem.
Maybe it has something to do with the "democratic
system" over there? Do you believe that other people
agree with you and there will be a change because of
these freedom changes at the next elections?

Traditionally the House of Lords balanced the power of the executive. (The Prime Minister is the leader of the political party with the most seats in the House Of Commons.) These days however, the Lords have lost a great deal of their power, and the government of the day can appoint people to be Lords.Tony Blair is currently under police investigation for his part in the "Loans for Lordships" scandal. The UK electoral system looks somewhat undemocratic to my eyes, as I am used to a Mixed Member Proportional system modeled on Germany's. I dont believe there is much voter interest in electoral reform however.

Compulsory electronic ID cars are already controversial, but whether they will be a big factor in the next election is another matter.I think the state of schools and hospitals will trump it.

[Gravy]

I wasn't speaking of laws or restrictions. Only of the concept of freedom.AFAIK, your freedom to walk down a street in Miami has not been altered since 9/11.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If you wish to discuss the philosophies of freedom, or the various (de)merits of democracy, please take it to the Political subforum.

[Brainster]

For example, if Amendment I of the US Constitution was eliminated today, then it would make no difference to me since I am rather unreligious to begin with.

Uh, that is not the only right in Amendment I.

[rwguinn]

Uh, that is not the only right in Amendment I.
Absolutely!
What we are doing now is an integral part of Amendment 1, as is the "Troofers" gathering on GZ.
The only freedom I really see eroding lately is the freedom to suffer the consequences of your own actions/inactions.
THis is also known as "The Freedom to Fail"

[defaultdotxbe]

Uh, that is not the only right in Amendment I.
i seem to remember a man on the street poll where no one could name all 5 freedoms protected by the first amendment

BTW, the first amendment not only protects your freedom to be religious, but also your freedom NOT to be religious

[Oliver]

Traditionally the House of Lords balanced the power of the executive. (The Prime Minister is the leader of the political party with the most seats in the House Of Commons.) These days however, the Lords have lost a great deal of their power, and the government of the day can appoint people to be Lords.Tony Blair is currently under police investigation for his part in the "Loans for Lordships" scandal. The UK electoral system looks somewhat undemocratic to my eyes, as I am used to a Mixed Member Proportional system modeled on Germany's. I dont believe there is much voter interest in electoral reform however.

Compulsory electronic ID cars are already controversial, but whether they will be a big factor in the next election is another matter.I think the state of schools and hospitals will trump it.

Well, we also have the school and public healthsystem-problem
here - also the biometric data within travel-passports. But to
me it does not look like a threat against the citizens - And i
think it´s a littlebit overstated to say we need this kind of crap.

But i highly guess that the mistrust in terms of americas freedom-
changes will change the current governments political structure
at the next elections. If the british people start to think the same
way about their freedom-rights, there will be also a widespread
public protest - at least at the elections. Don´t you think?

[gumboot]

Freedom means "that which without influences"....Period. To be "free-er" can be a reality but there is also the reality of other kinds of control such as suspicions by member of your community who see, hear and whatch what you do. You are as free as your community wishes you to be. Infringe on their values or their mores and you can expect some kind of reaction. Everything depends on what you are allowed to say and do coupled with where you are and who you are with.



This is a fairly typical American view if you ask me. Selfishness. Self-centered-ness, call it what you want.

Perhaps this is why I find American culture so fascinating. You have a "me" culture. Everything is about the individual. Individual freedoms. Individual rights. Individual success. Individual everything.

New Zealand, by contrast, is the total opposite. Everything is about the "us". Indeed, caring too much about "me" will result in you getting cut down by society.

Neither is perfect of course.

However, I think, personally, that us kiwis are closer to the idea and the value of "freedom" that was given birth by the Ancient Greeks.

"Freedom" is not about YOU being free as an individual. It is about your SOCIETY being free. In the most fundamental sense, being "free" means not being owned. Slavery is the antithesis of freedom. When the Greeks developed their free societies, that was the invention of the concept of citizens. This was in contrast to other societies of the time such as the Persian Empire where everyone was essentially owned by whoever was above them on the chain - so the Emperor owned everyone.

From hence came the concept of a king who was "first amongst equals". Essentially that is what we have in western society, scoff all you want, but it's true.

The President of the US, or the PM of New Zealand, or of the UK, or any other western country is no more above the law than any of the rest of us.

Let's say Bush hopped in a car and went for a drive himself, and got pulled over for speeding...

That can happen because he's "first amongst equals".

What you are talking of is Anarchy. Anarchy is all about personal freedom. But "Freedom" as used, is a description of our SOCIETY. And an Anarchic society is NOT a free society.

To the Brits here... you were talking about the government's ability to carry out surveillance without a warrant on a suspected terrorist... I would assume the laws remain as they are - that being only crimes for which the warrant was given can be prosecuted using evidence gathered from the warrant.

In other words if you get a warrant to carry out surveillance on a suspected murderer, and he talks about some drug dealing, you cannot use that as evidence as the warrant was not for drug dealing...

In which case, were someone under surveillance as a suspected terrorist, evidence gathered from that warrant-less surveillance could only be used as part of a terrorism-related conviction, nothing else.

Am I correct, or not?

-Gumboot

[katsu]

I don't think the government is doing the wire-tapping with an "evil" agenda. I don't see what they would have to gain from tapping into whatever conversation they want.

And I'm pretty sure the government doesn't have too much of a choice with the transparency. Anyone remember our buddy Bill a few years ago?

My point is that trusting only in the benevolence of the government is a universally bad idea. Give them an inch, and they take a mile. It's not an issue of evil, per se. It's the fact that the government is run by fallible, flawed human beings, many of whom have a very different agenda and direction for this country than sections of the population. For example, as an atheist, I get a little paranoid about a government run by a lot of fundamentalist suck-ups having the ability to listen to my conversations and read my mail without having to provide the courts with a good reason to do so. What is "Un-American" is purely up to the person that is defining what it means to be American in the first place. I'm sure there are some people who would define what we do here (in regards to criticizing established religion, especially, and the government as well) as quite "Un-American," given that they adhere to a false claim that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. I'm not willing to trust the benevolence of such people.

As for the transparency of government, David Brin wrote a very interesting book on the topic, called the Transparent Society. I'd post the link to it, but apparently I'm still too scummy to post links. :-P

The government is certainly *not* transparent; while we are finding out some of the more distasteful things that have been going on, we find out about them months, sometimes years after the fact. While that's certainly better than never finding out, it's still a far cry from being able to watch the government in the same manner that they're maneuvering to be able to watch us.

[Oliver]

This is a fairly typical American view if you ask me. Selfishness. Self-centered-ness, call it what you want.

Perhaps this is why I find American culture so fascinating. You have a "me" culture. Everything is about the individual. Individual freedoms. Individual rights. Individual success. Individual everything.

New Zealand, by contrast, is the total opposite. Everything is about the "us". Indeed, caring too much about "me" will result in you getting cut down by society.

Neither is perfect of course.

However, I think, personally, that us kiwis are closer to the idea and the value of "freedom" that was given birth by the Ancient Greeks.

"Freedom" is not about YOU being free as an individual. It is about your SOCIETY being free. In the most fundamental sense, being "free" means not being owned. Slavery is the antithesis of freedom. When the Greeks developed their free societies, that was the invention of the concept of citizens. This was in contrast to other societies of the time such as the Persian Empire where everyone was essentially owned by whoever was above them on the chain - so the Emperor owned everyone.

From hence came the concept of a king who was "first amongst equals". Essentially that is what we have in western society, scoff all you want, but it's true.

The President of the US, or the PM of New Zealand, or of the UK, or any other western country is no more above the law than any of the rest of us.

Let's say Bush hopped in a car and went for a drive himself, and got pulled over for speeding...

That can happen because he's "first amongst equals".

What you are talking of is Anarchy. Anarchy is all about personal freedom. But "Freedom" as used, is a description of our SOCIETY. And an Anarchic society is NOT a free society.

To the Brits here... you were talking about the government's ability to carry out surveillance without a warrant on a suspected terrorist... I would assume the laws remain as they are - that being only crimes for which the warrant was given can be prosecuted using evidence gathered from the warrant.

In other words if you get a warrant to carry out surveillance on a suspected murderer, and he talks about some drug dealing, you cannot use that as evidence as the warrant was not for drug dealing...

In which case, were someone under surveillance as a suspected terrorist, evidence gathered from that warrant-less surveillance could only be used as part of a terrorism-related conviction, nothing else.

Am I correct, or not?

-Gumboot

What criteria do i have to fulfil to emigrate to New Zealand?
And how is the weather over there? :)

[Alt+F4]

I feel inconvienced, but that's ok, considering the bigger picture.

Didn't the conspiracy liars say that by now Bush would have suspended the Constitution and assumed dictatorial powers? Just more lies from liars.

[Carnivore]

Well, we also have the school and public healthsystem-problem
here - also the biometric data within travel-passports. But to
me it does not look like a threat against the citizens - And i
think it´s a littlebit overstated to say we need this kind of crap.

But i highly guess that the mistrust in terms of americas freedom-
changes will change the current governments political structure
at the next elections. If the british people start to think the same
way about their freedom-rights, there will be also a widespread
public protest - at least at the elections. Don´t you think?


If a large percentage British people are thinking that way come election time, then yes. And if it does then it will become a major election issue. Public protest on it's own hasnt had much effect on this government. Invading Iraq was very unpopular at the time ( IIRC over 60% of the public opposed it), with massive demonstrations and near rebellion from the governments own back benchers.

BTW, the proposed ID cards are much more than travel documents or confirmation of identity. Under current proposals you would be required to produce them when you see doctor or buy medication from a pharmacy. You would need it when entering government property or transacting any business with a government agency. You would need them to visit an airport or just if policeman stopped you in the street and demanded it. All of these events would be logged and recorded in a government database with varying levels of access to various civil servants. The government propose heavy fines for not carrying the cards.The government has claimed (and then backed down from the claims) that the cards would prevent terrorist attacks, stop welfare fraud and catch illegal immigrants. Even when they admit their reasons are flawed, they are determined to press ahead with this. It amounts to a mandatory electronic tracking device being placed on all citizens. To a mildly paranoid person like me, it's a bit scary. And VERY offensive.

[joemailman]

Well I may be a American but it's obvious that you are naive. When push comes to shove all that you consider freedom can be tossed out in the name of whatever controling forces deem dangerous or threatening...and all in the name of whatever they can call it be it national security, executive privilage, preventative measures or etc. etc. To most Americans as well as kiwis this can't and won't become obvious until it happens to them personaly. Freedom still means that which is without influences regardless of where you apply it.

[Gravy]

Freedom still means that which is without influences regardless of where you apply it.Not if you intend to live in a society with others.

[gumboot]

What criteria do i have to fulfil to emigrate to New Zealand?
And how is the weather over there? :)


Start here (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/) :)

The weather has been...interesting lately.

Generally speaking... we have a maritime climate, so it changes a LOT. Depends what part of New Zealand...

The East Coast is very continental - very dry with very cold winters and very hot summers, moreso the further south you go.

We get a lot of rain here, especially in some areas...Auckland is particularly bad - couple of winters ago it rained every single day for 11 weeks.

We tend to have a pretty hot and dry summer from mid Jan to late March.

It's pretty erratic really...

This is what Wikipedia has to say:

The climate throughout the country is mild, mostly cool temperate to warm temperate, with temperatures rarely falling below 0°C (32°F) or rising above 30°C (86°F). Conditions vary from wet and cold on the West Coast of the South Island to dry and continental in the Mackenzie Basin of inland Canterbury and almost subtropical in Northland. Of the main cities, Christchurch is the driest, receiving only some 640 mm (25 in) of rain per year. Auckland, the wettest, receives almost twice that amount.

-Andrew

[Oliver]

If a large percentage British people are thinking that way come election time, then yes. And if it does then it will become a major election issue. Public protest on it's own hasnt had much effect on this government. Invading Iraq was very unpopular at the time ( IIRC over 60% of the public opposed it), with massive demonstrations and near rebellion from the governments own back benchers.

BTW, the proposed ID cards are much more than travel documents or confirmation of identity. Under current proposals you would be required to produce them when you see doctor or buy medication from a pharmacy. You would need it when entering government property or transacting any business with a government agency. You would need them to visit an airport or just if policeman stopped you in the street and demanded it. All of these events would be logged and recorded in a government database with varying levels of access to various civil servants. The government propose heavy fines for not carrying the cards.The government has claimed (and then backed down from the claims) that the cards would prevent terrorist attacks, stop welfare fraud and catch illegal immigrants. Even when they admit their reasons are flawed, they are determined to press ahead with this. It amounts to a mandatory electronic tracking device being placed on all citizens. To a mildly paranoid person like me, it's a bit scary. And VERY offensive.

I don´t even know why the British Government joined
the war on error. Was it some kind of boot-licking from
Blair and Co?

Phew - this is strange if so many data is stored about
citizens because this ID-card. I guess people and media here
would protest if it was so intervening here. What did
the media say about it - did they support these
developments? :confused:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Start here (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/) :)

The weather has been...interesting lately.

Generally speaking... we have a maritime climate, so it changes a LOT. Depends what part of New Zealand...

The East Coast is very continental - very dry with very cold winters and very hot summers, moreso the further south you go.

We get a lot of rain here, especially in some areas...Auckland is particularly bad - couple of winters ago it rained every single day for 11 weeks.

We tend to have a pretty hot and dry summer from mid Jan to late March.

It's pretty erratic really...

This is what Wikipedia has to say:



-Andrew

Have you had a chance to check out that random, rare iceberg near y'all?

[hellaeon]

Everyone complaining about living in the ol USA and other democratic societies.

Hey, move to sudan.

[Oliver]

Start here (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/) :)

The weather has been...interesting lately.

Generally speaking... we have a maritime climate, so it changes a LOT. Depends what part of New Zealand...

The East Coast is very continental - very dry with very cold winters and very hot summers, moreso the further south you go.

We get a lot of rain here, especially in some areas...Auckland is particularly bad - couple of winters ago it rained every single day for 11 weeks.

We tend to have a pretty hot and dry summer from mid Jan to late March.

It's pretty erratic really...

This is what Wikipedia has to say:



-Andrew

I can live with rain if it´s not as ice-cold as here in winter.
What are the coldest temperatures in winter where you live?

[hellaeon]

In the USA you have the right to own a gun and can buy it from a local store, thank god that right is much more restrictive in Australia.

Oliver, in winter 12-13 is the coldest and it SUCKS. its a nice 35 here today :)

[Oliver]

In the USA you have the right to own a gun and can buy it from a local store, thank god that right is much more restrictive in Australia.

Oliver, in winter 12-13 is the coldest and it SUCKS. its a nice 35 here today :)

12 to 13° Celsius in winter is like summer here in
europe... :D 35° celsius is a littlebit hot but i can
live with that. :D I guess it´s about 8° right now... :(

[gumboot]

Well I may be a American but it's obvious that you are naive. When push comes to shove all that you consider freedom can be tossed out in the name of whatever controling forces deem dangerous or threatening...and all in the name of whatever they can call it be it national security, executive privilage, preventative measures or etc. etc. To most Americans as well as kiwis this can't and won't become obvious until it happens to them personaly. Freedom still means that which is without influences regardless of where you apply it.


Indeed,

A free society is a form of government which has at its foundation freedom. It possesses political freedoms and human rights. A "free society" is controlled and governed according to rules, principles, or laws (within limits). Openness and clarity are common constraints within which a system of jurisprudence is constructed upon, not choices added at the head of state convenience.

Laws within a free society are "free" when it is known that these are controllable and open to change. A free society also guarantees and makes certain its available sources of community wealth remain free.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_society)


Just to clarify again, as clearly you're not reading these posts properly... when people make reference to "freedom" in western society they are talking about "Free Society" not individual personal freedom, which is anarchy.

Got it?

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Have you had a chance to check out that random, rare iceberg near y'all?


They're a good 800 miles south of me, so no... :p

-Gumboot

[Carnivore]

This is a fairly typical American view if you ask me. Selfishness. Self-centered-ness, call it what you want.

Perhaps this is why I find American culture so fascinating. You have a "me" culture. Everything is about the individual. Individual freedoms. Individual rights. Individual success. Individual everything.

New Zealand, by contrast, is the total opposite. Everything is about the "us". Indeed, caring too much about "me" will result in you getting cut down by society.

Neither is perfect of course.

However, I think, personally, that us kiwis are closer to the idea and the value of "freedom" that was given birth by the Ancient Greeks.

"Freedom" is not about YOU being free as an individual. It is about your SOCIETY being free. In the most fundamental sense, being "free" means not being owned. Slavery is the antithesis of freedom. When the Greeks developed their free societies, that was the invention of the concept of citizens. This was in contrast to other societies of the time such as the Persian Empire where everyone was essentially owned by whoever was above them on the chain - so the Emperor owned everyone.

From hence came the concept of a king who was "first amongst equals". Essentially that is what we have in western society, scoff all you want, but it's true.

The President of the US, or the PM of New Zealand, or of the UK, or any other western country is no more above the law than any of the rest of us.

Let's say Bush hopped in a car and went for a drive himself, and got pulled over for speeding...

That can happen because he's "first amongst equals".

What you are talking of is Anarchy. Anarchy is all about personal freedom. But "Freedom" as used, is a description of our SOCIETY. And an Anarchic society is NOT a free society.

To the Brits here... you were talking about the government's ability to carry out surveillance without a warrant on a suspected terrorist... I would assume the laws remain as they are - that being only crimes for which the warrant was given can be prosecuted using evidence gathered from the warrant.

In other words if you get a warrant to carry out surveillance on a suspected murderer, and he talks about some drug dealing, you cannot use that as evidence as the warrant was not for drug dealing...

In which case, were someone under surveillance as a suspected terrorist, evidence gathered from that warrant-less surveillance could only be used as part of a terrorism-related conviction, nothing else.

Am I correct, or not?

-Gumboot


Re NZ culture, as a Kiwi living in Britain I love NZ also, but while I grant you that NZ society is more consensus driven than antagonistic, and more socially aware than some places, calling it the "exact opposite" of US society is over egging the pudding. There is plenty of materialism, "Me culture" and selfish greed. You seem to describe a socialistic utopia that I dont recognize.

As to the concept of the free society, I completely agree with you.

Re surveillance, the UK government wishes to institute permanent indirect surveillance of all citizens by means of a (not very secure) chip and pin smart card. This will make your personal, financial, tax, medical and travel information available to many government employees and anyone who can hack the chip.

[gumboot]

I can live with rain if it´s not as ice-cold as here in winter.
What are the coldest temperatures in winter where you live?

Do you mean Auckland specifically?

Auckland has a warm-temperate climate, with warm, humid summers and mild, damp winters. January temperatures average 21-24 °C. February can be warmer than January, but temperatures rarely exceed 30 °C[3] July maximum temperatures average 14-16 °C. High levels of rainfall occur almost year-round (an average of 1249 mm per year), especially in winter. Climatic conditions vary in different parts of the city owing to geography such as hills, land cover and distance from the sea. On 27 July 1939 Auckland received its only snow fall in recorded history.[4] This is unlike some South Island cities like Christchurch, which regularly gets snow down to sea level.

The unusual early morning calm on the isthmus during settled weather, before the sea breeze rises, was described as early as 1853: "In all seasons, the beauty of the day is in the early morning. At that time, generally, a solemn stillness holds, and a perfect calm prevails..." Many Aucklanders use this time of day to walk and run in parks.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the music group "Crowded House" but their popular song "Four Seasons In One Day" is in reference to Auckland's weather :D.

Auckland doesn't really ever get that cold, but the wind and rain can make it unpleasant at times...having said that, I go for a run every morning at 6am even in the depths of winter, so it can't be too bad!

-Gumboot

[beachnut]

You live in a culture of permissible behavior. You are allowed to behave a bit more freely in this culture than in others, perhaps, but still there are restrictions and that being so there is no such thing as freedom....only the permissible range of behavior. You are also far less free if you are of the wrong color skin, facial features, weight, gender, or some other feature such as background, creed, nationality, etc. etc. The myth of freedom is what many morons (like your prez) in this country live with and brag about. The rest of the world knows and sees quite clearly just how full of Bullsh#t American braggarts are.

You seem to more of an American you define than we Americans are.

Every thing you say is what my professor calls Anecdotal evidence.

Nice stories you may have but I have found your racial profile is total anecdotal evidence at best and may point your own racism. (hope you are not Alex Jones fan)

Lost the freedom to carry 16 ounce coke thru security at the airport, Coke company needs to make some 3 ounce cokes! so i can stuff my quart bag with a 10 bottles of 3 ounce cokes!!!!

Freedom. I have lost all freedom to post at LC, they are idiots who act like NAZIs of knowledge, believe us or do not post! They are nuts. They are NAZIs of truth. Good job LC for exercising your freedom to be idiots!

[Carnivore]

I don´t even know why the British Government joined
the war on error. Was it some kind of boot-licking from
Blair and Co?

Phew - this is strange if so many data is stored about
citizens because this ID-card. I guess people and media here
would protest if it was so intervening here. What did
the media say about it - did they support these
developments? :confused:


Like I say, it is controversial but overshadowed by many other issues. Civil Liberties groups are protesting, and a grassroots movement called no2id has taken out full page ads in the national papers but it isnt currently a "hot" issue.

[Pardalis]

Correction, they are the Nazis of wrong.

[Oliver]

Do you mean Auckland specifically?

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the music group "Crowded House" but their popular song "Four Seasons In One Day" is in reference to Auckland's weather :D.

Auckland doesn't really ever get that cold, but the wind and rain can make it unpleasant at times...having said that, I go for a run every morning at 6am even in the depths of winter, so it can't be too bad!

-Gumboot

Okay...that´s it! How much place do you have
for crazy, german clowns in your home? :D :p

[Oliver]

Like I say, it is controversial but overshadowed by many other issues. Civil Liberties groups are protesting, and a grassroots movement called no2id has taken out full page ads in the national papers but it isnt currently a "hot" issue.

I guess german media would run and protest the issue here
for weeks or months - especially the WMD-lie if the gov was
involved.

But it´s hard to understand the medias behavior as part of
the war on terror - i mean britain is pretty involved as a part
of the war in iraq... What did the media told you about the
WMD-lie?

[Carnivore]

Okey...that´s it! How much place do you have
for crazy, german clowns in your home? :D :p

The more the merrier, but may I humbly suggest Christchurch as a possible abode? It's just more pleasant than Auckland and we have the best rugby team in the world!

(Anticipates Christchurch v Auckland flame war)

[gumboot]

Okay...that´s it! How much place do you have
for crazy, german clowns in your home? :D :p


Plenty! I love Germans! Lived with two while I was studying, and met all their crazy German friends. Awesome people. They even roped me into going downtown at all hours of the night to watch the soccer world cup, where I pretended to be from Turkey. Ahhhh the memories.

Unfortunately the only German they taught me was how to swear, how to order coca-cola, how to hit on girls, and how to say I love football.

-Gumboot

[Oliver]

Plenty! I love Germans! Lived with two while I was studying, and met all their crazy German friends. Awesome people. They even roped me into going downtown at all hours of the night to watch the soccer world cup, where I pretended to be from Turkey. Ahhhh the memories.

Unfortunately the only German they taught me was how to swear, how to order coca-cola, how to hit on girls, and how to say I love football.

-Gumboot

Do you remeber how to swear these things? I´m no
football fan at all - so i don´t even could tell you how
to swear about it. :blush:

[Carnivore]

I guess german media would run and protest the issue here
for weeks or months - especially the WMD-lie if the gov was
involved.

But it´s hard to understand the medias behavior as part of
the war on terror - i mean britain is pretty involved as a part
of the war in iraq... What did the media told you about the
WMD-lie?

Oh we know what the world knows all right. I dont know if you are familiar with the scandal surrounding the "sexed up" intelligence dossier on WMDs that the Govt used to justify it's position? (Wikipedia link for Dr David Kelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly))

What you have to bear in mind though is the depth of political apathy of very many British people. Englands performance in the World Cup was more important than a possibly illegal war that we are still fighting.

[Oliver]

Oh we know what the world knows all right. I dont know if you are familiar with the scandal surrounding the "sexed up" intelligence dossier on WMDs that the Govt used to justify it's position? (Wikipedia link for Dr David Kelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly))

What you have to bear in mind though is the depth of political apathy of very many British people. Englands performance in the World Cup was more important than a possibly illegal war that we are still fighting.

Thank´s for the link - i will study it next because i don´t
know much about a "sexed up"-scandal - but what you said
about apathy sounds very sad to me. Especially if the media
had the same attitude...

[Carnivore]

Thank´s for the link - i will study it next because i don´t
know much about a "sexed up"-scandal - but what you said
about apathy sounds very sad to me. Especially if the media
had the same attitude...

I agree. The facts are vigourously reported in the media, but the public don't seem to run with it. The attitude seems to be "all politicians are [rule 8] anyway, what does one more example matter?"

[Oliver]

Do you think that David Kelly was murdered? I wonder that
even the SIS was against the "iraqi abc-weapons" statement
within the official dossier.

[Deus Ex Machina]

All of them. Unless you're lucky enough to be using QWEST. I can't post links yet, but add http in front of www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1948927&page=1 to see the story.



Monitored does not mean tapped. It means that they record who called whom and for how long. If they have more interest, then they start tapping.

The wireless and phone companies have ALWAYS had this data - there is nothing new about it at all.

You are complaining because they keep track of who you call and for how long. IT IS HOW THEY BILL YOU. Don't want to be billed? Don't use the service.

It has nothing to do with "monitoring". Semantics once again.

There is nothing sacred about it.

Tapping you when you call - now there is something that needs controls.Oh, wait, search warrants, judges, that sort of thing.

Note that it is information of exactly this sort that HP was trying to get about their board by pretexting. You may have heard about the result - you know, the CEO of HP was forced to step down and California is considering who to file criminal charges against. But when it is done to all of us by our government, well...

why not sue the phone companies? Oh wait, it's a straightforward commercial charge.


BTW would you care to bet that Karl Rove can't get access to some of this data? You know, just enough to use it like HP did? I wouldn't...


Oh yeah Karl Rove - wow he could get access to who I called from my cell phone? Wow, that's threatening.



Ah yes. The old, "If you're innocent, then what do you have to worry about?" comment.

Well I'm an atheist. That means that I'm part of one an intensely disliked minorities in the country. (The current President's father is of the stated opinion that he doesn't think we can be true citizens or patriots of the USA!) If we continue down the path towards fascism, I fear that I need be guilty of nothing more to become a target.


well I'm an atheist too - as for the "slide to fascism" = what an utter crock. Get's touted around as soon as someone who doesn't like Bush wants to make like some 70 year old woman with an attack of the vaoprs.


On a more immediate level, see my comment above about Karl Rove. The knowledge that government collects and monitors this kind of data has a chilling effect on whisteblowers of various kinds. This undermines our ability to believe we have a free society. If this doesn't matter to you, then I can only say that you neither understand nor value freedom.

Cheers,
Ben

Oh yeah the old "if you don't agree with me you don't understand what freedom means" twaddle.

Au contraire - freedom doesn't mean shrieking about imagined slights merely to try to score political points. It means a lot more than that. It means confronting problems that come up, being willing to do something about them, being willing to take action.

Freedom didn't happen in this country because a bunch of people sat around and accused George of being a tyrant. It didn't happen because lawyers went on and on about "process".

Defending freedom doesn't mean that every step taken to combat threats is a "step to fascism" andone stupid enough to say that doesn't know what fascism is. They certainly don't have a clue what a totalitarian regime is.

[Oliver]

I agree. The facts are vigourously reported in the media, but the public don't seem to run with it. The attitude seems to be "all politicians are [rule 8] anyway, what does one more example matter?"

Well, i know a many people who think that all the
endless discussions within the political parties about
important issues are ridiculous but i guess the minority
here believes and cares about important things like the
war in iraq and they vote because of such important
issues. Even if i personally also think there are a lot
of nuts within the government and i usually don´t
care about elections at all because my opinion:
"They talk too much but act to less".

[gumboot]

The more the merrier, but may I humbly suggest Christchurch as a possible abode? It's just more pleasant than Auckland and we have the best rugby team in the world!

(Anticipates Christchurch v Auckland flame war)


:p

I grew up in the South Island (mainly), and was born in the Hawkes Bay. I hate Aucklanders... :D

Lived here 11 years now but still don't consider myself an Aucklander...My Rugby Team cheering priority is:

1) Hawkes Bay
2) Marlborough
3) Any other South Island team
4) Auckland

:D

Oliver, Christchurch has awesome weather, and is all around a fantastic city. Much "prettier" than Auckland. But I just find it way too small and "laid back" for me. Auckland, geographically speaking, is an absolute monster. I've been here over a decade and there's entire cities I don't know my way around ("Auckland" is actually four cities). Chch does have an over abundance of attractive caucasian females though!

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Do you remeber how to swear these things? I´m no
football fan at all - so i don´t even could tell you how
to swear about it. :blush:


I'm not a football fan either... :p But they said I needed to say I was in order to survive in Germany... heh heh.

Yes I can still pretty much remember how to say them all. Oh the other one was "Can you say that in English please".

-Gumboot

[Oliver]

Oliver, Christchurch has awesome weather, and is all around a fantastic city. Much "prettier" than Auckland. But I just find it way too small and "laid back" for me. Auckland, geographically speaking, is an absolute monster. I've been here over a decade and there's entire cities I don't know my way around ("Auckland" is actually four cities). Chch does have an over abundance of attractive caucasian females though!

-Gumboot

This sounds pretty attractive to me - especially the
weather and female argument. No matter if she will
spank my ass because this discussion.

What type of movies are you making over there?

[Oliver]

I'm not a football fan either... :p But they said I needed to say I was in order to survive in Germany... heh heh.

Yes I can still pretty much remember how to say them all. Oh the other one was "Can you say that in English please".

-Gumboot

Mhmm, i survived so far without any positive opinion
about football - even if people look like you´re from
planet mars if you tell them that football sucks.

Okay, i have to admit that the world-championship was
pretty exciting.

But you can survive nevertheless if you say: "Okay, let
me spend you a beer" after saying "Football sucks"... :D
You just have to be quick after this comment. :D

[gumboot]

This sounds pretty attractive to me - especially the
weather and female argument. No matter if she will
spank my ass because this discussion.

What type of movies are you making over there?


I've just finished a music video for a punk band. :D It should be online by the end of the week, and going out to broadcasters next week.

Not bad for $500 budget and a handycam!

We make quite a bit of German stuff actually... we have some strong funding relationships with Germany. Myself and my German producer friend (one of the Germans I mentioned earlier) are planning to try and exploit that next year.

Lots of hollywood projects - Disney Walden have permanently set up here for the remainder of the Narnia projects plus other things - Peter Jackson is still doing his thing down in Wellington, a big series starts up in January (I haven't yet worked out if it's a real TV one, or a spoof of those survivor series' or if it's something else entirely...) and lots and lots and lots of commercials, both local and from every country you could imagine.

Every now and then we manage to slip in time for a film of our own... :)

-Gumboot

[Oliver]

I've just finished a music video for a punk band. :D It should be online by the end of the week, and going out to broadcasters next week.

Not bad for $500 budget and a handycam!

We make quite a bit of German stuff actually... we have some strong funding relationships with Germany. Myself and my German producer friend (one of the Germans I mentioned earlier) are planning to try and exploit that next year.

Lots of hollywood projects - Disney Walden have permanently set up here for the remainder of the Narnia projects plus other things - Peter Jackson is still doing his thing down in Wellington, a big series starts up in January (I haven't yet worked out if it's a real TV one, or a spoof of those survivor series' or if it's something else entirely...) and lots and lots and lots of commercials, both local and from every country you could imagine.

Every now and then we manage to slip in time for a film of our own... :)

-Gumboot

This sounds like you have a lot of fun down there and
i have to admit that i also have no clue what Peter Jackson
is working on right now.

May i ask in what extent you´re planning to exploit that
next year and what your part is in making movies? I´m
a mediadesigner, so i also have some expiriences with
storyboards and stuff like that, but only for stuff like flash-
commercials - without acting at all.

[gumboot]

This sounds like you have a lot of fun down there and
i have to admit that i also have no clue what Peter Jackson
is working on right now.

May i ask in what extent you´re planning to exploit that
next year and what your part is in making movies? I´m
a mediadesigner, so i also have some expiriences with
storyboards and stuff like that, but only for stuff like flash-
commercials - without acting at all.


Currently, at a professional level, I work in the Production and AD departments, and occassionally in camera.

However, my intention is to be a writer/director, so to that end I am usually working on my own screenplays and projects (such as this music video which I wrote, directed, produced, shot, and lit myself).

The ambition myself and my German friend have is to establish a line production company aimed at Germany. "Line Production" is basically when a project comes in from overseas, and your company facilitates the shoot - crew, locations, cast, etc. however the creative comes from overseas (as opposed to local production where the director etc. are from the production company).

With the money we earn from that we intend to then make our own projects.

Germany has some really good funding schemes and they really support international productions. With myself (New Zealander), and my friend (She was actually born in France, to German parents, so has dual citizenship) we fit the bill... hopefully.

-Gumboot

[Bell]

You guys should get a room :boxedin:

[gumboot]

You guys should get a room :boxedin:


I just sent Oliver a PM. I was thinking the same thing...

Sorry for hijacking the thread...:o

Though it had been hijacked by politics anyway...:boxedin:

-Gumboot

[Bell]

I just sent Oliver a PM. I was thinking the same thing...

Sorry for hijacking the thread...:o

Though it had been hijacked by politics anyway...:boxedin:

-Gumboot

I was just joking :)
And uhm, like no other threads ever get hijacked ;)

[Oliver]

Currently, at a professional level, I work in the Production and AD departments, and occassionally in camera.

However, my intention is to be a writer/director, so to that end I am usually working on my own screenplays and projects (such as this music video which I wrote, directed, produced, shot, and lit myself).

The ambition myself and my German friend have is to establish a line production company aimed at Germany. "Line Production" is basically when a project comes in from overseas, and your company facilitates the shoot - crew, locations, cast, etc. however the creative comes from overseas (as opposed to local production where the director etc. are from the production company).

With the money we earn from that we intend to then make our own projects.

Germany has some really good funding schemes and they really support international productions. With myself (New Zealander), and my friend (She was actually born in France, to German parents, so has dual citizenship) we fit the bill... hopefully.

-Gumboot

This would be very great if you have success with your
plans, Andrew. :) Is there a possibility to watch some of
your productions or don´t you have these things online
already?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I have to confess I have, I went to LA with my checked luggage full of chainsaw chains, and they left the chains and took my underwear, shaving cream, razors, and shampoo.
Lucky I had an extra pair in the carry on.

[gumboot]

I have to confess I have, I went to LA with my checked luggage full of chainsaw chains, and they left the chains and took my underwear, shaving cream, razors, and shampoo.
Lucky I had an extra pair in the carry on.


That's fair enough. That shampoo can be deadly! Ever had any in your eye?

If I had the choice of having shampoo rubbed in my eye, or allowing a psychopathic terrorist to seize my aircraft and kamikaze it into an important cultural monument full of people, I know what I'd choose!

-Gumboot

[DarkMagician]

Tell me Truthseeker, how does this one play in the NWO scheme?

Messes with the dry-based laser cannons mounted on planes, ready to blast dissenters at a moment's notice. Duh.

[WildCat]

"Freedom" is not about YOU being free as an individual. It is about your SOCIETY being free. In the most fundamental sense, being "free" means not being owned. Slavery is the antithesis of freedom. When the Greeks developed their free societies, that was the invention of the concept of citizens.
Of course, the Greeks also owned slaves and citizens were a small select group of the actual inhabitants of the city-state. It may have been progressive for the times, but would be considered quite autocratic and repressive by today's standards.

[gumboot]

Of course, the Greeks also owned slaves and citizens were a small select group of the actual inhabitants of the city-state. It may have been progressive for the times, but would be considered quite autocratic and repressive by today's standards.


Absolutely. But the key was the notion that you had a free society of citizens who ran things. That was a bit more than progressive, it was entirely new.

All that has changed is, over time, we have widened our determination of who qualifies as a "citizen". afterall, even our societies aren't universal yet - five year olds can't vote...

-Gumboot

[WildCat]

five year olds can't vote...

-Gumboot
But when they do every Thursday will be free ice cream and cake day!

[delphi_ote]

Everything is fine here in Canada/Québec.
:usa: :usa: :usa:
You lost the freedom to be an American! :eek:
:usa: :usa: :usa:

[gumboot]

But when they do every Thursday will be free ice cream and cake day!


:eek: They stole my policy!

-Gumboot

[Ben Tilly]

The wireless and phone companies have ALWAYS had this data - there is nothing new about it at all.

Yes, they have it. And I'd prefer that they not share it without my consent. Why? A little thing you might have heard of called "privacy".

You are complaining because they keep track of who you call and for how long. IT IS HOW THEY BILL YOU. Don't want to be billed? Don't use the service.

No, I am complaining because they gave it to the government. I don't mind their collecting it and using it commercially. That's what my contract with them says that they can do. I do have a problem with them giving it to the government, and if we're lucky some judges will have a problem with that as well.

It has nothing to do with "monitoring". Semantics once again.

There is nothing sacred about it.

You might wish to confirm what "monitoring" is then. And I'd like to let the courts decide whether there is anything wrong about it.

Tapping you when you call - now there is something that needs controls.Oh, wait, search warrants, judges, that sort of thing.

They've also gone overboard on that when the call is between the USA and a foreign country. As someone who regularly calls Canada and China, this does not please me.

why not sue the phone companies? Oh wait, it's a straightforward commercial charge.

There are such lawsuits in place.

Oh yeah Karl Rove - wow he could get access to who I called from my cell phone? Wow, that's threatening.

It is if you're a potential whistleblower who was thinking of talking to a reporter.

[...]

Au contraire - freedom doesn't mean shrieking about imagined slights merely to try to score political points. It means a lot more than that. It means confronting problems that come up, being willing to do something about them, being willing to take action.

Freedom didn't happen in this country because a bunch of people sat around and accused George of being a tyrant. It didn't happen because lawyers went on and on about "process".

Note that this country was founded on a distrust of central government. And you're trying to use its rhetoric to support an excessive central government?

A lot of that process also was created as a protection against central government.

Let me ask you a question. Where were you on September 11, 2001? I was in New York City. I was not just in the city. I lived in medical student housing in the Bellevue-Tisch Hospital complex. That's right. The place that they took all of the body parts and tried to reassemble them.

I say this to make a point. And the point is that I lived through the most horrendous terrorist attack that this country has seen. I lived through it and was personally impacted far more than most people were, almost certainly more than you do. That provides context for what I have to say next.

I personally fear terrorism less than our government. Furthermore our government's actions have made me more fearful of terrorism, not less. We have provided would-be terrorists with means (increased gas prices, lots of new recruits) and motives (invasion of Iraq, etc) for causing us further trouble. Our additional security is a joke. (Guess what screening the people who clean planes get? Oh right, none. A good portion aren't even legally supposed to be in the country.) And the whole world hates us. And we've made the point loud and clear - if you want to protect yourself from the USA, get yourself nukes.

[quote=Deus Ex Machina;2112992 Defending freedom doesn't mean that every step taken to combat threats is a "step to fascism" andone stupid enough to say that doesn't know what fascism is. They certainly don't have a clue what a totalitarian regime is.[/quote]

Funny. I personally know several people who lived under totalitarian regimes, currently live in the USA, and are very worried about what has been happening here. Now I suspect that someone from, say, Iran probably has more experience than you do with totalitarian regimes. But I'm supposed to take your word on it and believe that she doesn't have a clue what a totalitarian regime is?

Sorry, I'm not that stupid.

Ben

[gumboot]

Yes, they have it. And I'd prefer that they not share it without my consent. Why? A little thing you might have heard of called "privacy".


You should seriously move to New Zealand.

No one is allowed to do anything with personal information (other than the specific reason it was gathered) without your explicity permission.

-Gumboot

[billydkid]

You have lost the freedom to be left alone. You have lost the freedom to travel without being harrassed and not to have to arrive at the airport two hours before your flight. You have lost to freedom not to be a suspect for no particular reason. There's a famous picture of a five year old boy with his arms outstretched being scanned by a security guard with a hand held metal detector. You question comes from the same place as the comment "If you haven't done anything wrong, you haven't got anything to worry about."

[delphi_ote]

Sing it with me, folks:

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty ****in' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five

[gumboot]

You have lost the freedom to be left alone. You have lost the freedom to travel without being harrassed and not to have to arrive at the airport two hours before your flight. You have lost to freedom not to be a suspect for no particular reason. There's a famous picture of a five year old boy with his arms outstretched being scanned by a security guard with a hand held metal detector. You question comes from the same place as the comment "If you haven't done anything wrong, you haven't got anything to worry about."


The things you have listed above are all either very weak "freedoms" or things you never had in the first place.

Re: the five year old getting scanned... are you aware that in the recent airline bombing plot in London two parents were going to smuggle liquid explosive onto the aircraft inside their baby's milk bottle?

When you are dealing with people who will do anything and everything to cause death and destruction you have only two options, assuming you want to prevent it.

You either throw every resources you have at seeking them out across the globe and destroying them, or you gradually tighten your own security until the point where your society is paralysed, but safe.

Many people in the west are strongly opposed to their governments doing either. One can only assume they don't WANT this breed of terrorism to be prevented.

-Gumboot

[Dog Town]

DEM said...
Au contraire - freedom doesn't mean shrieking about imagined slights merely to try to score political points. It means a lot more than that. It means confronting problems that come up, being willing to do something about them, being willing to take action.

Freedom didn't happen in this country because a bunch of people sat around and accused George of being a tyrant. It didn't happen because lawyers went on and on about "process".

Defending freedom doesn't mean that every step taken to combat threats is a "step to fascism" andone stupid enough to say that doesn't know what fascism is. They certainly don't have a clue what a totalitarian regime is.

BRAVO! Well Said!

[mortimer]

To be honest, many of these claims are almost as looney sounding as the twoofer claims. Have evidence for these?

Your privacy is largely gone.
The right to vote is barely a breath on a mirror.
The press corps exist in a state of perpetual fear.
Whistleblowers live in terror.
Laws passed by your elected representatives get rewritten by the President, just like that.
We know we're screwed if there's another hurricane.
You can join the Army, but you may not be able to leave it.
Most of us want a healthcare system, but they won't do anything
Most of us want the President and Vice-President impeached, but they won't do it.
You might want to watch what books you check out of the library.
The U.S. is so deeply in debt we cannot even declare war without the OK of foreign investors.
The only opinions on TV are those of crazy white guys.
Institutions designed to protect us are now hurting us.
Sometimes the machines flip the votes right in front of our eyes.
Torture is now national policy.
Democracy has been pared to the bone.


And then there are some that certainly existed before 9/11, and before the Bush "regime"...

[hellaeon]

The things you have listed above are all either very weak "freedoms" or things you never had in the first place.

Re: the five year old getting scanned... are you aware that in the recent airline bombing plot in London two parents were going to smuggle liquid explosive onto the aircraft inside their baby's milk bottle?

When you are dealing with people who will do anything and everything to cause death and destruction you have only two options, assuming you want to prevent it.

You either throw every resources you have at seeking them out across the globe and destroying them, or you gradually tighten your own security until the point where your society is paralysed, but safe.

Many people in the west are strongly opposed to their governments doing either. One can only assume they don't WANT this breed of terrorism to be prevented.

-Gumboot

What he said
Edit: I agree with DEM as well, people harping about privacy and the like. If the gumverment wants your identity known you wont stop them. Its been that way for a long time. Its just become easier over time and now of course, its essential that it is easy due to the current climate. Lots of people winge and cry foul, but if your not doing anything wrong, why worry? The law will be on your side.

[delphi_ote]

Lots of people winge and cry foul, but if your not doing anything wrong, why worry? The law will be on your side.
Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?

[defaultdotxbe]

Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?
the price of freedom is eternal vigilence, however that applies to both to citizens watching the govt, as well as the govt watching citizens

the CTers like to think of themselves as the watchdogs, however they are so busy trying to figure out what the government is up to, they never stop to look at who actually is up to something

[Unfit4Command]

My freedoms haven't really changed, I have only flown on one airplane and that was before 9/11 so I can't complain about airport problems.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

Well it is hard to list an actual freedom I've lost, but I will add this.

I discontinued some of my political activity out of fear of persecution.

LLH

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Lots of people winge and cry foul, but if your not doing anything wrong, why worry? The law will be on your side.

But that is assuming you can even get to a courtroom. Jose Padilla (an American citizen, arrested in America) spent 3 1/2 years in jail WITHOUT CHARGES.

LLH

[fuelair]

Not a right, and served the punk right!

Unless the articles/video left something major out, you are quite right!!!!

And I don't fly anymore either - no fear of it just don't want to play the silly games designed to look like they are protecting us from real terrorists. And to make suppliers wealthy.

[Kevin_Lowe]

But that is assuming you can even get to a courtroom. Jose Padilla (an American citizen, arrested in America) spent 3 1/2 years in jail WITHOUT CHARGES.


Or if you are overseas, you can be killed out of hand by the CIA. Kamal Derwish, a US citzen, was killed in Yemen by a missile launched from a Predator drone by the CIA.

Bear in mind that Derwish was not killed in the heat of battle while he was threatening the lives of US troops, or anything of that sort. He was merely an alleged Al Qaida member travelling in a car with other alleged Al Qaida members, who the CIA had decided to assassinate. He had not been tried, let alone convicted, of any offence at all.

Was he an active Al Qaida member? Probably. Will the world miss him? Probably not. Should a secretive branch of the US government be allowed to execute US citizens abroad on its own say-so? Absolutely not.

It also bears pointing out that the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" argument cuts both ways, and the Bush administration has constantly acted as if it had something to fear from judicial oversight. The laws for wiretapping terrorists were very liberal and it was virtually unknown for a judge to refuse the intelligence services a warrant. It was even legal to wiretap and get a warrant after the event. The only possible reason to remove judicial oversight was to enable the executive to spy on people who were manifestly not terrorists.

Asking the average troofer to name a specific freedom they have lost is a bit like asking the average music fan to name an exact time and place that a rock star has trashed a hotel room. They probably won't be able to give you a sensible answer on the spot but it would still be just a cheap debating trick if you pretended that this was evidence no rock star ever trashed a hotel room. News stories about Bush-administration encroachments on civil liberties came in a constant stream and most people can't remember all the details of any one incident.

[Darth Rotor]

Your right to travel freely without having to show travel papers or get permission is a basic freedom here in the US.
BS. You have to show your government paper, your ID, to get on an airplane and to get your ticket.
You, I, anyone here on the JREF forum or anywhere else can pack a bag and head off to any place we want to.
Right, if you don't mind the harassment package that the government has endorsed, you are welcomed to it. My nail clippers are not a threat to national security, nor to you safe flight, nor are my mother's shoes.
So boo hoo, you don't like going through security at the airports. Don't fly.
You seem to have forgotten: I stated that I am boycotting air travel as a response to ass hattery.
You're perfectly free to tavel any other way you wish.
Which I do.
Just remember though that if you want to drive you have to demonstrate to the government your ability to drive, and you have to play by the rules of the roads.
That isn't a factor in "travel." I do already pay the taxes, and drive within the guidelines, for the mundane purpose of getting from here to there. Road taxes are part of what keeps the roads available for all of us, to inclue me. Passenger harassment adds no value to the availability of the airwars, and it adds cost. When I travel by car, what I don't get is pointless harassment that attempts to provide the illusion of security.

The over reaction, the senselessness of the current passenger harassment program yields no greater security than before. It merely adds to the asspain of air travel, and I have decided that I don't need that crap in my life.

I am being presumed criminal by the mere fact of purchasing an airline ticket.

DR

[LibraryLady]

Loss of library record privacy... Such a pain...

Well, I was asked if I lost any rights, and I answered accurately. As to loss of "library privacy," the actual loss is the right to read privately. If someone is monitoring what you read, they are also monitoring your thoughts. If the Homeland Security department decides tomorrow that the Catcher in the Rye is a book with hidden instructions for terrorists, and wants libraries to report all those reading that book, those reading it for innocent purposes, like a term paper, will have their name on a list for no reason.

As to telephone calls, I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy talking on the phone and being fairly confident that no one was listening but my friend, sister, mother, etc. Although I'm pretty sure the FBI has a file on me (my brother had top security clearance, so I'm betting they investigated all of us), I really don't want it to include my sister's opinion of the Governor of Ohio.

If you are not from the U.S. and didn't have these rights to begin with, that's fine. I had these rights and they were taken away. You asked. I answered.

[Darth Rotor]

Well, I was asked if I lost any rights, and I answered accurately. As to loss of "library privacy," the actual loss is the right to read privately. If someone is monitoring what you read, they are also monitoring your thoughts. If the Homeland Security department decides tomorrow that the Catcher in the Rye is a book with hidden instructions for terrorists, and wants libraries to report all those reading that book, those reading it for innocent purposes, like a term paper, will have their name on a list for no reason.

If you are not from the U.S. and didn't have these rights to begin with, that's fine. I had these rights and they were taken away. You asked. I answered.
Consider "The Turner Diaries" in light of your remarks, and the tracking of persons who subscribe to Soldier of Fortune. ;)

DR

[Pardalis]

As to loss of "library privacy," the actual loss is the right to read privately. If someone is monitoring what you read, they are also monitoring your thoughts. If the Homeland Security department decides tomorrow that the Catcher in the Rye is a book with hidden instructions for terrorists, and wants libraries to report all those reading that book, those reading it for innocent purposes, like a term paper, will have their name on a list for no reason.

I doubt that will ever happen. Frankly, I think they have better things to do than to monitor your reading, besides they don't have the resources to do it.

As to telephone calls, I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy talking on the phone and being fairly confident that no one was listening but my friend, sister, mother, etc.

Honestly, do you think your government has the time, resources and interest to moniter you, your mother, friend, sister, etc?

If you are not from the U.S. and didn't have these rights to begin with, that's fine. I had these rights and they were taken away. You asked. I answered.

I didn't ask, really, I was just poking fun at Truthseeker the conspiracy theorist.

Love that avatar. :)

[drkitten]

I doubt that will ever happen. Frankly, I think they have better things to do than to monitor your reading, besides they don't have the resources to do it.

You'd be surprised at how little resources it actually takes to monitor someone. The problem is not with the monitoring, but with the evaluation of the results of the monitoring.

On the other hand, computers are getting much, much better at being able to do the evaluation semi-automatically as well. Do you remember the FBI's "Carnivore" proposal?

[LibraryLady]

Consider "The Turner Diaries" in light of your remarks, and the tracking of persons who subscribe to Soldier of Fortune. ;)

DR

I have. Actually, I was thinking of using the example of Mein Kampf, because there was a fuss about it at my library, lately. What if someone is doing a report for school on racism and has checked out Mein Kampf and the Turner Diaries (which, oddly enough is in the African American Collection). Do they deserve to be on a list?

As to phone calls, if the government isn't tracking, why did they ask the telephone companies for records? In today's networked world, tracking people isn't all that difficult.

I love my avatar too--That's my budgie, Nick, mon. :)

[G-K-4]

Three questions:

1.) In this new reality, how do you correct information about you that is incorrect?

2.) Do any of you think that a person should have the right AND the power to control when, where, and to whom they reveal personal information, and that each revelation shall not be compiled elsewhere?

3.) Those of you who believe that the law will protect you from unlawful government action, how do you handle intrusions and abuses by third parties?

Some of you seem to not mind that a U.S. government (at whatever level) can find out all about you. You obviously don't consider yourself someone they would perceive as a potential threat.

But what if someone else takes an interest in you? Say, a private individual with an axe to grind, or a corporation that discriminates unjustifiably, or an organization with an agenda, or a militia compiling an enemies list, or a terrorist group targetting Americans, or (if you are a citizen/subject of a non-U.S. government, for example, China) that other government itself?

You don't have to be a U.S. Federal Government agent, with access to vast records, to put together information about someone. Some skill, a tiny amount of time, and access to today's vast private, commercial databases are all you need to get a pretty good sense of someone (including their politics, sexuality, and reading habits), and even some very useful details (such as where they are at any given moment).

Only part of this is a result of the September 11 Attacks. Much of the rest of it probably would have happened anyway. Does that make it better?

Listen to this: http://www.hopenumbersix.net/speakers.html#pid2

"HOPE 2006: Privacy Is Dead - Get Over It Revisited, with Steven Rambam

"When the Steve Rambam talk at HOPE Number Six was disrupted by his arrest minutes before he was scheduled to go on stage, we vowed to make sure it would one day be presented to the public. That day occurred on Thursday, November 16, 2006. HOPE Number Six finally came to an end with a three hour talk at the Stevens Institute in Hoboken, New Jersey that focused on just how much information on each of us is readily accessible to virtually anyone. Steve also revealed all of the information he was able to find on a volunteer "victim" and answered all sorts of questions from the standing room only audience, including what really happened back in July."

[Pardalis]

Then toss your computer out the window, delete all your credit cards and bank accounts and you'll do fine. ;)

[Kevin_Lowe]

Then toss your computer out the window, delete all your credit cards and bank accounts and you'll do fine. ;)

False dichomies with smileys are still false dichotomies.

[delphi_ote]

the price of freedom is eternal vigilence, however that applies to both to citizens watching the govt, as well as the govt watching citizens

the CTers like to think of themselves as the watchdogs, however they are so busy trying to figure out what the government is up to, they never stop to look at who actually is up to something
Right, but we should never say "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." Abuse of power is a problem everywhere. Citizens have to make sure there are safeguards against it.

[Beerina]

Serious question: How many and which phone calls are monitered by the government?

You don't know. That's the problem with a warrantless search.

If I remember correctly only those suspected of terrorism had their conversations tapped.

You don't know. That's the problem with a warrantless search.

Let me ask you a question: Does history teach us that those in power abuse the ability to spy and eavesdrop?

It's been stated over and over again that there is no impediment to the president getting these wire taps -- he can even request it after the fact, and if he is denied, bfd. But at least it's on record.

That's why this is a serious problem. Now there's no record.

Although it doesn't concern me that much either way, I have nothing to hide. Perhaps when I rob a bank and want to brag about it over the phone, then I will be against it.

If you were the president's political opponent, you would have quite a lot to hide, that has nothing to do with the war on terror but an awful lot to do with who might win the next election. Since it's all right there in his secret little room, manned by big supporters, how are you to know he doesn't peek in a little bit here or there?

[Pardalis]

False dichomies with smileys are still false dichotomies.

I wasn't serious, hence the smiley.

[Checkmite]

I lost the right to divulge personal medical information about any patients I may have to friends and relatives at parties, bars, and restaurants. Damn you, HIPAA!

[PerryLogan]

Following are examples of freedoms which President Bush and his fellow Republicans in Congress have already expunged (as reported by the Associated Press):

FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.http://baltimorechronicle.com/020105ChuckBaldwin.shtml

ACLU Testimony at a Hearing on "America after 9/11: Freedom Preserved or Freedom Lost?" Before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Submitted by Nadine Strossen, President and Timothy H. Edgar, Legislative Counsel

The specific freedoms that have been abridged - by the PATRIOT Act and by other government actions - often involve technical and complex changes to surveillance laws, detention regulations, and government guidelines. However, they share common themes. The government's new surveillance and detention powers have undermined important checks and balances, diminished personal privacy, increased government secrecy, and exacerbated inequality.http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/16946leg20031118.html

Prior to Sept. 11, people were able to access the United States Geological Survey Website, which posted information about America's water resources. Interested individuals could learn what specific areas in our country were plentiful in water reserves and how we used and cleaned our water. Not anymore, the Web page has been removed. The International Nuclear Safety Center has removed interactive maps from its site, maps students could access to learn more about nuclear power plants and what they do. Not anymore. It's gone.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission completely shut down its Web site, then more recently restored it with "select content." Attorney General John Ashcroft issued a memo Oct. 12 urging federal agencies to exercise greater caution in disclosing information, noting the Justice Department is committed to "full compliance with the Freedom of Information Act," but is "equally committed to protecting other fundamental values held by our society." Ashcroft also said in the memo that "When you carefully consider FOIA requests and decide to withhold records, in whole or in part, you can be assured that the Department of Justice will defend your decisions unless they lack a sound legal basis."http://www.unf.edu/groups/spinnaker/archives/2002/mar27/editorial2.html

[Beerina]

Of course, the Greeks also owned slaves and citizens were a small select group of the actual inhabitants of the city-state. It may have been progressive for the times, but would be considered quite autocratic and repressive by today's standards.

I'll bet it'd still be better than what about a third of humanity has at the moment.

[fuelair]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

1.
2.
3.

...
Freedom to fly with only very minor difficulties?hassles.

[Darth Rotor]

http://baltimorechronicle.com/020105ChuckBaldwin.shtml

ACLU Testimony at a Hearing on "America after 9/11: Freedom Preserved or Freedom Lost?" Before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Submitted by Nadine Strossen, President and Timothy H. Edgar, Legislative Counsel

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/16946leg20031118.html

http://www.unf.edu/groups/spinnaker/archives/2002/mar27/editorial2.html
Perry, out of curiosity: how does any, or a particular one, of those items impact your life in Blueland? (Yes, Travis County is Blueland. :) )

I am also curious about the lawyer thing, and the subtle difference between citizen and resident alien. It's been a few months, but we had a detailed discussion here about the recent law on what provisions of the terror act applied, and there was a finite distinction in difference of status between citizen, resident alien, and all other aliens.

DR

[Luke T.]

Tapping you when you call - now there is something that needs controls.Oh, wait, search warrants, judges, that sort of thing.

Except the government isn't getting warrants and "that sort of thing" when tapping calls which originate in the US to overseas.

Oh yeah Karl Rove - wow he could get access to who I called from my cell phone? Wow, that's threatening.

Yes, it is. Extremely threatening. And if you don't think so, then you are a fool.

[Luke T.]

I keep thinking about that memo. What was it, Phoenix? An FBI agents says something along the lines of "hey, there's an awful lot of Middle Eastern guys taking flying lessons. Kinda mysterious, dontcha think?" It never made it up the chain of command.

I keep thinking about that memo. I think about what if that memo was written right now, buried under additional layers of government bureaucracy and a whole new Department, and 11 million Verizon phone records of American citizens.

Collect enough data and you are going to find patterns. Lots and lots of patterns. Like my avatar. Some people see Jesus, when all it really is is a blood stain on a Band-Aid.

Patterns in phone calls, library books, bank transactions. Meanwhile, Ahmed A. Qaeda is renting a small private plane and loading it up with some bleach and some chlorine.

Hey, how long's it take to become a US citizen? How long's it been since 9/11?

"They hate us for our freedoms". That is becoming more ironic by the hour.

[coalesce]

Collect enough data and you are going to find patterns. Lots and lots of patterns. Like my avatar. Some people see Jesus, when all it really is is a blood stain on a Band-Aid.

All this time, I thought it was Kris Kristofferson.

Michael

[Luke T.]

I see a cottage industry one day starting. For a fee, they will get "investigated for possible terrorist activity" removed from your Homeland Security file so when a potential employer does a background check on you, you won't be ill-considered for employment because you bought a copy of the Koran from Amazon.com.

[Luke T.]

All this time, I thought it was Kris Kristofferson.

Michael

It's Osama as a teen!