Feel like a fool duped by Sylvia Browne

[sonja]

I have been searching the web for others that have experienced what I did. This site popped as an anti-Sylvia Browne site. Two days ago I had a reading with Sylvia's son, Chris Dufresne. I feel pretty devastated about the whole thing. First, I have been a follower of Sylvia for a number of years and really believed what she did was legitatmate. I read Chris Dufresne's book about how he does his readings and he states that its better to let him give the "readings" first before asking any questions, so I was immediately taken back when one of the very first things out of his mouth was if I had any questions. I told him I read his book and thought it was a good idea to let him go first. What he told me was very very short, very very vague and it was very very obvious that he needed me to provide the information. First, he completed missed anything to do with my debilitating illness and then when I explained it to him all he did was repeat back what I told him. At the end of the reading I just very calmly (and very sadly) told him I was disappointed in the reading. All he could offer me was defensiveness and irritation stating that all I was trying to get was a free reading. He rudely told me I would get a refund and hung up on me. His "Office Manager" called me five minutes later and outright tried to bully me. When that didn't work she did state that I would get a credit to my credit card in the next billing cycle and that I would never be allowed to have another reading - like why would I? At no time did I ask for the refund. It was as if they were trying to punish me to not being grateful for the reading. They must be running the biggest con in America. How are they continuing to get away with this? I'll believe the refund when I get it. It would be helpful to me to talk to others who have experienced this same thing with Sylvia or her son. Has anyone here gone through this or do know of another website that specifically addresses this. I feel stupid, but worse I feel devastated by the whole experience.

[Darat]

Sonja - I moved your post here from the the "Welcome New Members" thread; that thread isn't for serious discussions and your post will get more attention here.

[Lisa Simpson]

I'm very sorry you were duped by Sylvia's son. They are con-artists, plain and simple.

And welcome to the forum, BTW.

[Mr. Skinny]

I just PM'ed RSLancaster to have him read your thread. He is starting up a "Stop Sylvia Browne" web site.

Unfortunately, I told him to look in the "Welcome New Members" thread over in Community.

[logical muse]

Hi Sonja,

First off, don't beat yourself up too much over this. Society has conspired against you, priming you to believe in nonsense. It starts at an early age when we are made to believe things that aren't true.

You've made a great step by coming here. Have a look around the rest of the forum, and read up on some of the discussions about psychics, so-called alternative medicines, and everything else we discuss.

One of our members, RSLancaster, is making a website called Stop Sylvia Browne (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/). I'm sure he'll be interested in your story.

Welcome to the forum!

[ObscureReferenceMan]

sonja - What Lisa said. As to how they (and others) get away with it... People want to believe. And they will believe despite any evidence to the contrary. I'm glad that you've "seen the light".

And welcome to the forum!!

[Hawk one]

Sonja, you may feel a bit the fool now (I know I would too)... But remember that you feel like it because you are now less foolish than you used to. You're growing smarter and wiser so fast you can almost feel it. That, I hope you will agree, is a very good thing.

[Garrette]

And to say what hasn't been said yet: You are not the only one here to have been duped.

[RSLancastr]

Sonja, I am the Robert Lancaster mentioned by Mr. Skinny earlier in this thread.

I am indeed putting together a Stop Sylvia Browne web site at www.StopSylviaBrowne.com.

First, I'm sorry that you went through that. But this is what these people do. They make money off of people who are in vulnerable situations: the grieving. The ill. The lonely.

It is sickening, and it needs to stop. I am doing whatever I can to make that happen.

I am very interested in putting your story up on the StopSylviaBrowne web site. Would that be okay with you? Please email me at webmaster@StopSylviaBrowne.com and let me know what you think.

[RSLancastr]

Darat, have you contacted Sonja to let her know the thread has moved? I would hate for her to look for it where she ortiginally posted it, and think that it had gotten lost or deleted.

[Lisa Simpson]

Whenever a post is moved or altered in any way, an automatic message is sent.

[Hawk one]

RS: Every time a post or thread you make is moved, there's a automatically generated PM sent to the posters affected.



ETA:
And I blame Lisa for my slow typing.

That, and that I just made some wicked coolness on Guitar Hero. That tires out the fingers, you know.

[Minarvia]

Hi, Sonja, welcome from me, too. I am very sorry for how you were duped. I have been following SB for years, but so far had only been duped in that I bought her books and am still getting her newsletter. But the newsletter is not bad, it amuses me now. But I am certainly glad that I never bought a reading from her or her son. I had once considered it, but then was lucky enough to find a story on the web similar to yours. And I'm SO glad that I didn't fly out to one of their conventions. That would have been a big fat disappointment, too.
I'm eagerly awaiting RLancaster's web site. Maybe your experience will help someone else. I hope that will comfort you a little.

[RSLancastr]

I have been following SB for years, but so far had only been duped in that I bought her books and am still getting her newsletter.Minarvia, if you are looking for some place to unload those books (and the newsletter), read this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64955)!

I'm eagerly awaiting RLancaster's web site.The format is now set, and I am working on getting the initial content together. I will be spending a fair chunk of the four-day weekend on it, and hope to have it up by the end of Sunday. But these things usually take more time than I expect. Cross your fingers.

[elaine]

Welcome sonja!

Don't feel bad. A few of us here, are former believers in psychics. At least, you caught on fast. Some don't. And go broke, before they catch on.

You might be interested in reading Kelly's blog series on psychics

http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/30606-pmp-introduction-to-psychics-and.html

[RichardR]

Sonja - you're smarter than most: you realized after one reading that it's a scam. Congratulations and welcome to the forum.

[sonja]

Thanks for all of the support. I have emailed Robert Lancaster about my story. I hope that I can help prevent this from happening to others.

[hcmom]

Believer to skeptic in one reading -- proof that Sylvia Brown and her son are indeed very powerful...

hehehe

[Kelly]

Welcome, Sonja.

I thank you for coming here and for sharing your story. Even though you might have felt somewhat embarrassed believing as you did, the important thing is that your willingness to talk about it could help countless others. There is no shame in that.

Kelly

[Marc L]

Welcome, Sonja.

The best thing here is to realize, as someone else said, that you are much smarter than you give yourself credit for. A True Believer(tm) would have done everything in her power to try and force the reading to match the facts. You actually saw it for what it was, and are responding properly-by telling other people what happened so Sylvia and her ilk* can be stopped.

*I love that word. :)

Marc

[Goshawk]

Don't forget to check back with your credit card company if the refund doesn't show up in next month's statement. They promised you a refund, and you're entitled to it; if it's not there, sic the people at the other end of the 800 number on them.

[grayman]

Sonja, welcome to the forum.

I'd like to add that if we do indeed learn from our mistakes, then I should have a PhD.

:)

[Quinn]

Welcome, Sonja. Allow me to add my condolences to the chorus, along with my happiness that you recognized the scam for what it was so quickly and found your way here. I haven't personally been through a similar experience with a psychic, but I did go through a period of belief in some things that now make me cringe. Many people here could say the same thing. So rest assured, no one here will think the slightest bit ill of you for what you went through. Quite the contrary, it really is gratifying (and rare!) to find someone with the courage to admit they were fooled, and adjust their life accordingly. Enjoy the forum!

[RSLancastr]

Thanks for all of the support. I have emailed Robert Lancaster about my story. I hope that I can help prevent this from happening to others.Read and replied, Sonja.

Thank you so much for coming forward so that others can learn from your experience. It was a very selfless thing to do.

I'll be contacting you again with a copy of the resulting article for your approval.

[jimlintott]

Hey Sonja

I hope you realise that even if you don't get a refund what you got from the experience has more value than what they give most of their clients. You saw it for what it was and quite quickly at that. You are probably much smarter than you give yourself credit for.

Welcome.

[Dark Jaguar]

If you are anything like me, you believed it beforehand simply because of all the articles, books, people on TV, and so on talking all the time about it like it's an established fact, with the poorly executed experiments and so on. Hard for the average person who's only been exposed to that media blitz to reach any other conclusion. You never actually had a reading before that moment though (at least it sounds to be that way from your post) so when you finally got the chance to get one and it fell so far short of all those stories you may have seen and heard, it's disillusioning. At least, that's the way it was for me. Mind you, I never sat down for a psychic reading, but I did sit down for family members to attempt various voodoo upon me, and always left just saying "that wasn't anything spectacular".

Great that you've seen through this sooner rather than later.

[tkingdoll]

Sonja, welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your story.

No need to feel bad about it - there are so many of us here who used to believe in one thing or another, it's how many of us came to this forum in the first place. I think you are awesome for recognising the scam for what it is and coming here to talk about it.

I hope you stick around, this forum is a great place to be.

[Ladewig]

Welcome to the forum.

I, too, have spent time suffering from a debilitating illness and from grief. During those times it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chafe. Sylvia Brown and her ilk are definitely chafe.

I hope you find comfort from another avenue: relatives, support groups, or friends both old and new.

[a_unique_person]

I have been searching the web for others that have experienced what I did. This site popped as an anti-Sylvia Browne site.

Pat on the back to Randi, and congratulations to you, Sonja, for not falling for what a lot of people do.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Sonja,

This may seem wrong, but I am very excited for you.

Welcome to the real world. I think you'll like it here.

We're very happy to have you.

[sonja]

Again, thanks to everyone for your support. It was the first reading I've ever had from a pychic and I had always believed that most of them were fake, but I did believe in Sylvia Browne and her son. I feel a lot of my beliefs have been shattered and its pretty disheartening for me right now.

[coalesce]

Sonja, the only way you should feel like a fool is if you continued to believe in their nonsense after this experience, which you clearly don't. You have done nothing to feel ashamed about. You just grew up a little bit, like we all did. For me, it was a gradual process, not one huge jarring bolt like it was for you. The end result is the same: at the end of the day, you're a better person for having thrown off the blinders.

And welcome aboard!

Michael

[Bronze Dog]

Throwing in my welcome as well. As has been said many times before, it takes a lot of strength to admit you've been fooled. It takes even more to let it be shown to others as a warning.

You fell into a hole, but unlike most of the people there, you pulled yourself out of it. Kudos.

I can't wait to see the article.

Doing a little promotion at my blog (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/11/someone-not-making-same-mistake-twice.html).

Welcome again to the world of skepticism. We've got magic acts, card tricks, and maybe the ghost of Houdini. He's quiet now, but boy did he know how to put on a show!

[Dark Jaguar]

Also we've got those actual wonders. I know you may be disheartened to find out they aren't psychics, but there's plenty of great stuff without being able to read minds. Besides that, we can read minds to an extent. That's basically what language and art and such are for, right? Via that we can tell what someone else is thinking. If you need medical solutions about your health, there's doctors. Those who study the world around them instead of just deciding they "know" how to fix things will do the best humans know how to help you. Want some meaning? Be free to decide that for yourself. That can be the hardest part, but there's nothing wrong in deciding what's important to you for yourself. Want some actual psychic powers? Well, at the very least I suppose if one can ever attach the right doohikies to a fully decoded brain, we could make all humanity into one global harmonious internet, that will seek perfection and mow down all in it's interconnected path! Um, never you mind that last part.

Suffice it to say, we've all been there, but what impresses me more than anything else is that you were actually able to face it for what it was when you so totally thought it was so. That takes a certain something. I, like others have mentioned, had a much more gradual process. It wasn't painful at all when I finally got rid of religion because of it, because by the time I finally was able to say "I guess I don't believe", I had already found enough meaning in my life to do without. For you though, it has to be much harder, as I can imagine. I can only say I can't relate too well but in a sense I'm jeleous that I couldn't do the same as you did.

And again, welcome!

[Bronze Dog]

I was one of the people who came to skepticism gently.

It seems that all too often, however, a lot of people have a head-on collision with a failure and can't deal with it. I suspect there are a lot of woos out there who just hang on by performing the psychological equivalent of the sunk cost fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy) .

[hellaeon]

Welcome to the forum!

As someone who was always borderline (one of those kids with the bible in his face but still went the other way - consistently!) on skepticism and certainly hooked by a few strange ideas becoming my own worldview, I can assure you even though many of these claimed phenomena dont exist and it makes life seem dull, the real and natural phenomena that does more then suffices and feels overwhelmingly humbling to ponder upon.

Cheers

[Tricky]

You are an inspiration to us, Sonja. Though many of us here are skeptics, we do know how difficult it is to look critically at the things you have believed for so long and say, "that's not right". Would that more people had your strength.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

You are an inspiration to us, Sonja. Though many of us here are skeptics, we do know how difficult it is to look critically at the things you have believed for so long and say, "that's not right". Would that more people had your strength.

I agree! Sonja you showed incredible strength! Anyone can be fooled (we have all be fooled). It took great strength to even tell him you were not happy with the reading. It takes even more to confront yourself. Good job Sonja!

LLH

[Minarvia]

Minarvia, if you are looking for some place to unload those books (and the newsletter), read this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64955)!

The format is now set, and I am working on getting the initial content together. I will be spending a fair chunk of the four-day weekend on it, and hope to have it up by the end of Sunday. But these things usually take more time than I expect. Cross your fingers.

I'll be doing some cleaning up and organizing over the next couple of weeks. Let me dig them out and see what I've got! :)

[RemieV]

Sonja,

Don't worry, there are people out there who are just as interesting (if not more so because they have real talent) as psychics.

Check this out:

http://www.banachek.org/

And I just love this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG24OLLQF_Q

It's not such a bad world without psychics ;)

Glad to meet you!

-- Remie

[Skeptic Guy]

Sonja,

Let me add my voice to the rest and say "Welcome aboard!" You should be very proud of yourself. So many have gone willingly to these charlatans but so few have had the strength to think about their experiences rationally and objectively and come the the realization you have.

Way to go!

[alfaniner]

Again, thanks to everyone for your support. It was the first reading I've ever had from a psychic and I had always believed that most of them were fake, but I did believe in Sylvia Browne and her son. I feel a lot of my beliefs have been shattered and its pretty disheartening for me right now.

Please do not feel that way. That is what they do. (meaning psychics)

Be aware that some are self-deluded into thinking they have some special "gift". Most of us have no problem with those aside from educating them where they may be wrong. But the high-profile ones like Sylvia, John Edward, and James Van Pragh, they know exactly what they are doing and continue to prey upon vulnerable and grieving people.

Have you seen Randi's "Sylvia clock"?

You are no "fool".

[Mick Houlahan]

Welcome, Sonja - glad you found the place.

[articulett]

It's a small price to pay for a great lesson. Now you know how you can be fooled. Randi is a gem at showing how easy it is to fool smart people...scientists even...people who are sure they can't be fooled. And having that knowledge is the first tool to using skepticism and evidence to weed out beliefs from the truth. And that is very liberating. When people berate you for asking questions or act like your rude to doubt--that is a good sign that they are trying to lie to either you or themselves.

People who have evidence and fact on their side are usually eager to share it--eager to prove the truth. Obfuscations, insults, and shunning are diversions used when one can't support ones claims. Think of how an actual person who truly believed they were getting messages from the dead would have acted...they would question their powers, maybe...try harder...apologize...but they wouldn't put it on you. Their reaction shows quite well they know they are fraudulent. And that makes them more worthy of scorn than the misguided who actually believe they are doing as they claim.

You were trusting. That isn't anything to be ashamed of. Trustworthy people tend not to think that others might not as trustworthy. Plus we are raised in a world where we are told from childhood that faith and feelings are good ways to find truth...and that there are spiritual things we can't understand except through "divine" sources etc.

Faith and feelings are a really crappy way to find truth. Evidence is a pretty good way, and there are lots of amazing facts that we are privileged to be able to know because we live in a time where science has opened up a world and people like Randi and assorted psychologists and scientists and thinkers have amassed a great compendium of common mistakes humans make in logic...we know a lot about how people can be influenced, manipulated, and fooled into believing the unbelievable.

And former believers are often the very best skeptics. Because they are people who have decided that they'd rather know the truth than hold on to a delusion...and they'd rather not know something than to believe a lie.

I think it was Joan Baez that said, "the truth will set you free; but first it will piss you off."

[Pipirr]

SB got Larry King's stamp of approval and a weekly appearance on Montel; then there's all the shows on W about psychics, mediums solving crimes and rescuing people's homes from spirits, as well as Ghost Whisperer and Medium telling us how its done. Who could doubt that we live in strange times, that death is just a veil and some of us can reach through? Can all of that be made up? There must be something in it.

There isn't, but you won't hear that on cable tv.

Welcome to the jref, Sonja. Tell your friends!

[Huntster]

....I feel stupid, but worse I feel devastated by the whole experience.

You came to the wrong place. This place will only guide you to the opposite extreme.

[Hawk one]

You came to the wrong place. This place will only guide you to the opposite extreme.
And here is one of the forum resident trolls. As you can see, he's just been ignoring all the real and heartfelt welcomes extended towards you just so he could be an ass.

Of course, we are going to guide you to the opposite extreme. We'll be trying to make you feel good about understanding the real world instead of feeling bad for having been fooled. That's a pretty good opposite if you ask me.

[chillzero]

You came to the wrong place. This place will only guide you to the opposite extreme.

What a mean thing to say!

This is a person who can clearly think for herself, as demonstrated by the fact that she did not just fit the reading to her life, nor did she assume that the weak reading was her fault through negative feedback or something - despite some pressure toward that.

This is the perfect place for people who can examine their own experiences and beliefs, and understand that sometimes those beliefs can and should change.

[Flo]

You came to the wrong place. This place will only guide you to the opposite extreme.


And what would be the right place to go, according to you ?

(and since this is such a wrong place, what are you doing still hanging around ?)

[Mr. Skinny]

You came to the wrong place. This place will only guide you to the opposite extreme.
Well, if this place guides her to the opposite extreme of feeling stupid and devastated, then I'd say it's the right place.

[elaine]

...and now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Hey Sonja, there are threads here, in the community and humor sections, where folks just hang out, shoot the breeze, just like we're old friends.

Check some of them out ;)

[This Guy]

Sonja.

What all those other folks said! :D

Welcome! :)

[Dubium]

Hi Sonja

I haven't posted for a while but I really wanted to tell you that you are NOT stupid. I have been to a number of psychics over the years, and because I wanted to believe, and because thinking that dead people might want to talk to me or be hanging around me made me feel 'special' (ugh), it took me ages to finally accept that all psychics are either fraudsters or nutcases who think they have powers. Now, looking at them through skeptic's eyes, I see how ridiculous and fraudulent they are.

Don't be disheartened, everybody is conned sometime - I certainly have been, by all manner of charlatans. You have a powerful message to share - all the more powerful because you've 'been there'.

Make sure you get that refund!

Best Wishes

Roz

[fishbait]

It was the first reading I've ever had from a pychic and I had always believed that most of them were fake, but I did believe in Sylvia Browne and her son. How was Sylvia different from the one's you believed were fake? What made you believe in her and not the others?

[Moochie]

Sonja - you're smarter than most: you realized after one reading that it's a scam. Congratulations and welcome to the forum.

What Richard said, Sonja.

Welcome.

M.

[Hindmost]

Welcome Sonja. Glad to have you here. I do want to echo the feelings of others...we have all been "fooled" on occasion--don't feel bad. You have come out ahead overall as you have used analytical skills to your advantage.

Always have the skeptics motto...if we could consider having one...in the back of your mind. Courtesy of Carl Sagan: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." If you have some extra funds, consider reading Randi's "Flim Flam" or Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World."

glenn

[Minarvia]

How was Sylvia different from the one's you believed were fake? What made you believe in her and not the others?

I know this question is posed to Sonja, but I just wanted to say why I used to believe in Sylvia. I don't recall how I first came upon her, but when I did and heard her speak she was so (seemingly, to me) down to Earth, common-sensical, and funny. She has no trouble speaking of her mistakes and huge marital blunders, and speaks as if she knows where we are all coming from. She has the same problems, feelings, and doubts that we all have at one time or another. When she said something along the lines of "you know, people are always saying that hatred will eat you up alive? Well, I say, 'not if you enjoy it!' I really hate my brother-in-law. He's just such an...a real...well, hating him just makes me feel all tingly inside!" I laughed and thought she had to be for real. And I mostly like Montel, and if HE trusted her, well, she had to be genuine, right?
I think her humour and easy manners made me like her. It took several years for me to begin to notice her blunders, and her downright nastiness when she is challenged or cornered. And her books, tho enjoyable, are filled with such stupid ideas and ridiculous assumptions that I began to get disgusted. And when she says, "take what you want and leave the rest behind," well, how could any god be fine with such a thing? Her God says to believe what you like and reject what you don't and He's okay with that? Ridiculous. I then found this website and lurked for ages, but now I'm finally free. I almost can't believe it myself that I was taken in by her so completely at one time. (And John Edwards, too. Man, I still feel like a prize moron for liking him at one time and believing his claptrap!)

[RSLancastr]

I know this question is posed to Sonja, but I just wanted to say why I used to believe in Sylvia.Minarvia, thanks for sharing that.

[Miss Whiplash]

Welcome Sonja! Thanks for sharing.

[Minarvia]

Minarvia, thanks for sharing that.

You're welcome. I've begun looking thru my books for what I have of her writings and some old Newsletters. Oh, and, hee hee! Mr. Randi mentioned in the newest Forum Newsletter the email I sent him about my latest SB newsletter promoting Sylvia's Daytime Soap Opera debut on The Young and the Restless in early December! :D I think a bunch of us may tune in just to see that. As much as I dislike her, I must admit that my curiousity will get the better of me this time.

[chillzero]

...And I mostly like Montel, and if HE trusted her, well, she had to be genuine, right?



Seconded ... this was what led me that route years ago.

[Minarvia]

...And I mostly like Montel, and if HE trusted her, well, she had to be genuine, right?


Seconded ... this was what led me that route years ago.

Oh, thank goodness! Chillzero, you've made my day. I'm so glad I'm not the only one. :)

[RSLancastr]

[QUOTE=Minarvia;2124406Oh, thank goodness! Chillzero, you've made my day. I'm so glad I'm not the only one. :)[/QUOTE]Sadly, I think you are far from alone in having been taken in by Sylvia Browne in large part due to her "credibility by association" with Montel Williams.

However, you may be in a minority in that you finally saw through it.

I'm hoping to increase the population of that minority.

[articulett]

And what would be the right place to go, according to you ?

(and since this is such a wrong place, what are you doing still hanging around ?)

Indeed...and after so many posts complaining about skeptics--there's a few of those aren't they. I guess you gotta admire their tenacity. But why do they hang around...do they think one day they will win a convert to their pet unsupportable claim?

I mean some of these trollish sorts post nearly every day for years--and this isn't the only forum where they do so...

What can the motivation be?

[rjh01]

This is not the first thread on S Browne (http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=546196)

Nor will it be the last.

Welcome to the real world. In more than one way.

[SirPhilip]

I have been searching the web for others that have experienced what I did. This site popped as an anti-Sylvia Browne site. Two days ago I had a reading with Sylvia's son, Chris Dufresne. I feel pretty devastated about the whole thing. First, I have been a follower of Sylvia for a number of years and really believed what she did was legitatmate. I read Chris Dufresne's book about how he does his readings and he states that its better to let him give the "readings" first before asking any questions, so I was immediately taken back when one of the very first things out of his mouth was if I had any questions. I told him I read his book and thought it was a good idea to let him go first. What he told me was very very short, very very vague and it was very very obvious that he needed me to provide the information. First, he completed missed anything to do with my debilitating illness and then when I explained it to him all he did was repeat back what I told him. At the end of the reading I just very calmly (and very sadly) told him I was disappointed in the reading. All he could offer me was defensiveness and irritation stating that all I was trying to get was a free reading. He rudely told me I would get a refund and hung up on me. His "Office Manager" called me five minutes later and outright tried to bully me. When that didn't work she did state that I would get a credit to my credit card in the next billing cycle and that I would never be allowed to have another reading - like why would I? At no time did I ask for the refund. It was as if they were trying to punish me to not being grateful for the reading. They must be running the biggest con in America. How are they continuing to get away with this? I'll believe the refund when I get it. It would be helpful to me to talk to others who have experienced this same thing with Sylvia or her son. Has anyone here gone through this or do know of another website that specifically addresses this. I feel stupid, but worse I feel devastated by the whole experience. You actually might want to take this directly to Randi, who will give it proper attention. As to being foolish, consider yourself a rare exception today. We've all placed false trust in someone at some point, whether it be in a relationship or other situation, when we know we should have asked questions. Welcome to the forum!

"The secret of success is sincerity.
Fake that, and you've got it made."
- Bob Monkhouse

[American]

How are they continuing to get away with this?

Lawrence Harvey Zeiger.....


"Larry King"

[SirPhilip]

Indeed...and after so many posts complaining about skeptics--there's a few of those aren't they. I guess you gotta admire their tenacity. But why do they hang around...do they think one day they will win a convert to their pet unsupportable claim? I mean some of these trollish sorts post nearly every day for years--and this isn't the only forum where they do so...What can the motivation be? The problem may be as simple as a name. Change the meme to "Citizen Crime Fighters" or some other, more apt title, then there would be little foothold to obfuscate. Charlatans constantly play on the claustrophobic, un-presumptive connotation skepticism has. Skepticism implies "I ask questions because I don't take anything at face value". The primary reason most people are even active skeptics isn't skepticism at all, but moral outrage. Much of what makes news on this site amounts to unprosecuted criminal activity, and in other cases, psychological rape. It's a big mistake to be less clear.

[articulett]

I know this question is posed to Sonja, but I just wanted to say why I used to believe in Sylvia. I don't recall how I first came upon her, but when I did and heard her speak she was so (seemingly, to me) down to Earth, common-sensical, and funny. She has no trouble speaking of her mistakes and huge marital blunders, and speaks as if she knows where we are all coming from. She has the same problems, feelings, and doubts that we all have at one time or another. When she said something along the lines of "you know, people are always saying that hatred will eat you up alive? Well, I say, 'not if you enjoy it!' I really hate my brother-in-law. He's just such an...a real...well, hating him just makes me feel all tingly inside!" I laughed and thought she had to be for real. And I mostly like Montel, and if HE trusted her, well, she had to be genuine, right?
I think her humour and easy manners made me like her. It took several years for me to begin to notice her blunders, and her downright nastiness when she is challenged or cornered. And her books, tho enjoyable, are filled with such stupid ideas and ridiculous assumptions that I began to get disgusted. And when she says, "take what you want and leave the rest behind," well, how could any god be fine with such a thing? Her God says to believe what you like and reject what you don't and He's okay with that? Ridiculous. I then found this website and lurked for ages, but now I'm finally free. I almost can't believe it myself that I was taken in by her so completely at one time. (And John Edwards, too. Man, I still feel like a prize moron for liking him at one time and believing his claptrap!)

That's a great story. And great for other lurkers who may feel similarly. Congratulations on being free. Really...that is worth whatever shame you feel for trusting someone who was either lying is deluded or both.

I think trustworthy people are more likely to trust others, because we can't imagine someone be so dishonest. But I so love the world through skeptic eyes--it's far more wonderful than I could have guessed--and what a brilliant group of people if I must say so myself. Congratulations on being free.

If someone makes you bad for questioning them or asking for evidence, you now know that is not a sign for you to feel bad about yourself--it's a sign for you to divest yourself of such a person.

Honest people are pretty damn good about sharing what they know. And they don't pretend to have "higher truths" that you can't access either.

[Minarvia]

That's a great story. And great for other lurkers who may feel similarly. Congratulations on being free. Really...that is worth whatever shame you feel for trusting someone who was either lying is deluded or both.

I think trustworthy people are more likely to trust others, because we can't imagine someone be so dishonest. But I so love the world through skeptic eyes--it's far more wonderful than I could have guessed--and what a brilliant group of people if I must say so myself. Congratulations on being free.

If someone makes you bad for questioning them or asking for evidence, you now know that is not a sign for you to feel bad about yourself--it's a sign for you to divest yourself of such a person.

Honest people are pretty damn good about sharing what they know. And they don't pretend to have "higher truths" that you can't access either.

Thanks for all of that. It IS nice to finally be free. I will admit that it was hard at first. I went into a deep depression for days and thought that all of life was futile. Maybe others have felt this, too, I don't know. But once I came around I felt, and still feel, really good. I do feel free, and now I am feeling angry for people like Sonja who are, even if they aren't being ripped off monetarily, are being ripped off truth-wise. I'm going to send some newsletters and books to RSLancaster soon for his site. I'm really excited about it and I hope more people find his site and learn from it. And I hope they also find this forum. I am really finding it a wonderful place to be. Who needs fairies and ghosts and unicorns? There are wonderful, caring, and friendly people all around and right here. That is better than any woo I used to embrace. (Minarvia hopes this didn't turn too mushy and slinks off to lurk on some other thread for awhile...) :o

[Yahzi]

I feel stupid, but worse I feel devastated by the whole experience.
"Fool me once, shame on you;
Fool me twice, shame on me."
- Anonymous

You don't deserve condolences, Sonja - you deserve praise. You figured it out after only one reading.

It is devestating to discover there are people so utterly devoid of basic decency on the public stage. People who can lie to you - and then to try and make it your fault when you catch them. At least an honest crook grins shamefully and says, "you got me."

But it is extremely heartening for the rest of us to know that there are people out there like you - people who are willing and able to see through the nonsense, just as soon as they get enough hard evidence.

As so many others have said, welcome to the real world. It's not nearly as fantastic as life in the Matrix, but it's a lot more substantial.

[articulett]

"The truth will set you free; but first it will piss you off" --Joan Baez.

There are many who share your experiences, and in the age of the internet you can find them easily. Many people have been deceived by those they've trusted. I think it can happen so easily when you are taught that faith and feelings are a good way to know things. Faith and feelings are crappy ways to know the truth. Evidence: people all through history and all over the world are very certain about things that are absolutely incorrect.

Evidence is the best way to know things--and knowing how people can fool themselves helps too. I was listening to a podcast from a convention of ex-mormons. And some of the stories were so touching and similar. When people lost their faith, they felt like life wasn't worth living--the narration in their head that they had been using since childhood to make sense of the world was a lie--it didn't match the facts. And they had been told that "believing" was everything--having a testimony was a gift from god. But after that, they experienced a liberation they never dreamed of and they were eager to be a support for each other and to help make the path easier for others.

By speaking here...someone may be lurking as you did and your message might help them learn about what evidence is and how readily anyone can be fooled. Randi has a lot of enemies among those who want to believe. Often they've never even read anything by him, but the word "skeptic" is used derisively by believers. These "kill the messenger" feelings are directed at most people who threaten peoples' favorite delusions. But I find skeptics, in general, to be among the most honest and people with extraordinary integrity--they could abuse their knowledge, but instead they use it to show others how they can fool themselves.

[brooklyn44]

Allow me to add my welcome and to say "good on you."
You did your research, read the guy's book and went in knowing what to expect.The fact is that from the get-go he wasn't able to deliver anything and became hostile to you proves that you really weren't checking your smarts at the door.
I guess what I'm saying is, that despite your need for help in your dire situation, you had the gumption to speak up and call "bull[rule8]."
b44

[supermonkey]

How about the fake John Edward? I know the brother of one of my co-workers paid a massive amount of money for a reading with him and felt it was a total rip off.
Does anyone know of anyone else who will admit that they were conned by John Edward? I personally feel he is a bigger crook than Sylvia Browne.

[sonja]

Again, thanks for all the support. My original post is on Robert Lancaster's new site StopSylviaBrowne.com. Hopefully, it will help prevent others from making the same mistake that I did. I have been asked the question of why I believed Sylvia to be legitimate when I believed most psychics to be fakes. I think it was because of all the publicity and recognition that she has received for so many years. I slowly became convinced of her ability over a number of years. The way it is staged on tv, it gives the illusion of being real. I have really mulled over why Montel Williams gives her so much support. I have in the past found him and his program to be pretty credible. Now I wonder if he really is fooled by her or if she is simply a profitable business partner. I have a number of her books and a lot of her writings I found interesting and some of it really did ring true to me. Now I think most of her writings probably are not original. After I told Robert that I was going to use her books to start a bonfire, he asked if I would send them to him, so that is what I will do with them. I think that Robert's web site is pretty organized and he has backed up his claims against Sylvia Browne with solid documentation. Hopefully, it will help to expose her for what she is.

[skullerello]

Welcome to the Forums, Sonja.
S.B.'s a fraud, and you caught her and her son trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
Good job!
Then, instead of wallowing in guilt or remorse, you decided to use your experience to alert others.
How courageous, how noble!
Now, you've found your way home. You belong here.
I know these very same sentiments have been expressed by nearly everyone here, but I had to add my two cents worth.
Good to have you here.

[grayman]

Fair warning sonja: should you ever make it to TAM, expect this: :hug2

[RSLancastr]

Does anyone know of anyone else who will admit that they were conned by John Edward?I would bet there are many.

[ponderingturtle]

Again, thanks to everyone for your support. It was the first reading I've ever had from a pychic and I had always believed that most of them were fake, but I did believe in Sylvia Browne and her son. I feel a lot of my beliefs have been shattered and its pretty disheartening for me right now.

Believing something wrong is not a sign of lack of intelligence or thoughtfulness, it is not changing that belief when confronted with evidence to the contrary.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I have really mulled over why Montel Williams gives her so much support. I have in the past found him and his program to be pretty credible. Now I wonder if he really is fooled by her or if she is simply a profitable business partner.

Good question.

LLH

[ponderingturtle]

Welcome Sonja. Glad to have you here. I do want to echo the feelings of others...we have all been "fooled" on occasion--don't feel bad. You have come out ahead overall as you have used analytical skills to your advantage.

Always have the skeptics motto...if we could consider having one...in the back of your mind. Courtesy of Carl Sagan: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." If you have some extra funds, consider reading Randi's "Flim Flam" or Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World."

glenn

SOunds like a great use for the refund

[chipmunk stew]

Hi, Sonja! Welcome to the forum. :w2:

I just read your OP ("original post" or "opening post", if you're an internet forum newbie) and am re-experiencing my own sense of loss, disillusionment, self-doubt, and self-deprecation. I don't envy your current discomfort. :rub:

I was never duped by SB or any other psychics, but I was duped and otherwise misled by many other sorts. A few of many examples:

I enrolled in the Landmark Forum to the tune of several hundred dollars, pestering my friends and family with slogans and Forum-babble for months afterwards.
I purchased an expensive colon-cleansing kit on the promise it would purge me of toxins threatening all manner of health problems.
To cure a skin disorder, I paid a guy to stick needles all over my body an put suction cups on my back, in his plush office in a wing of his big, lavishly-decorated house in an expensive neighborhood of an expensive town.I can't say exactly when the shift occurred for me. I always had my doubts about all these things. I think I resisted my skepticism because it seemed cold, harsh, uncaring, negative, cynical, etc. Part of it was simply that I couldn't articulate my skepticism well enough to convince myself. At some point along the continuum of listening to my doubts to reading Michael Shermer to finding my way to this forum, I realized that I had it completely backwards and that skepticism is a progressive, ethical, enlightened, caring way of evaluating our world. This realization transformed my disillusionment to indignation at a culture that devalues critical thinking and mocks truth. I finally understood that skepticism is, as Carl Sagan characterized it, a candle in the dark, and that embracing, mastering and utilizing this most useful of human tools is the most powerful, positive activity I could hope to contribute to this world.

I wish you the best, and I hope your grief passes quickly.

[alfaniner]

... I have a number of her books and a lot of her writings I found interesting and some of it really did ring true to me. Now I think most of her writings probably are not original. After I told Robert that I was going to use her books to start a bonfire, he asked if I would send them to him, so that is what I will do with them. ...

Although it pains me to advocate the burning of any book, I'd say keep one and torch it -- it may make you feel better.

[supermonkey]

I just tried looking thru several of SB's books and boy are they a bunch of horse dung. How can anyone believe this stuff??
I think that she is in for a big surprise at the end of life when she realizes that there is no life afterdeath. She is so deluded and leads people into greater delusion.

[CLD]

I think that she is in for a big surprise at the end of life when she realizes that there is no life afterdeath.


How will she be able to realize anything after death?

[Moochie]

Having just watched this wretch (SB) in an old episode of Montel, I find I am forming an impression of what she is about.

I'm no psychic, but I feel that this woman does not believe any of the claptrap that emanates from her mouth and mind.

Rather, I think that somewhere in the dim, distant past she noticed that she could con people in distress -- it might have been members of her own family, neighbors, friends, and eventually strangers.

I think that the con wasn't deliberate, not at first, anyway. Initially, it may have been an attempt to help the people who told her their sob stories.

But, being an intelligent girl, she soon discovered that, a) people gravitated toward her for some reason (the practiced look of "concern"?), and b) nothing she said to them to ameliorate their distress seemed to work. Her conclusion? Why bother!

From this it isn't much of a jump to deduce that she figured that she "had something," and that this "something" could be turned to some advantage.

Sylvia Browne, Psychic Extraordinaire is born!

It would not surprise me if it were revealed that she holds the people who come to her seeking succor in utter contempt -- she is so much brighter than they are.

Lastly, I think it would be foolish to underestimate this woman. She has her backside pretty well covered, as any intelligent person would.

All comments/questions welcome.

M.

[sonja]

Well, I actually got the refund today! I really had my doubts as to whether I would ever see that money again. Now that I've got my money back, I'm contemplating writing a scathing letter to Sylvia Browne, but that may be a waste of time. I do definitely plan to email Montel Williams and tell him how I feel about him promoting a fraud.

[RSLancastr]

I have really mulled over why Montel Williams gives her so much support. I have in the past found him and his program to be pretty credible. Now I wonder if he really is fooled by her or if she is simply a profitable business partner.I wonder that too, Sonja.

I have a number of her books and a lot of her writings I found interesting and some of it really did ring true to me. Now I think most of her writings probably are not original.Many celebs have "ghost writers (no pun intended), and at the rate she is cranking out the books (it seems like a new one every few months, but I haven't really looked into that), it would not be surprising if one or more other people are actually doing the writing, and they are just slapping her name on them.

Welcome to the Forums, Sonja.
S.B.'s a fraud, and you caught her and her son trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
Good job!
Then, instead of wallowing in guilt or remorse, you decided to use your experience to alert others.It's a quality the world could use more of, that's for sure.

Fair warning sonja: should you ever make it to TAM, expect this: :hug2Make sure she knows who you are first, grayman! Scary-looking guys like you and me have to give people fair warning, or law enforcement is called! :D

I finally understood that skepticism is, as Carl Sagan characterized it, a candle in the dark, and that embracing, mastering and utilizing this most useful of human tools is the most powerful, positive activity I could hope to contribute to this world.Well said, chipmunk. (There's a sentence rarely heard outside of Alvin cartoons...)

And thanks for sharing your story. I would imagine there are few among us who weren't taken in by one con or another in the course of their lives. Sonja is by no means alone in that.

Although it pains me to advocate the burning of any book, I'd say keep one and torch it -- it may make you feel better.:D Funny you should say that. Books are pretty close to sacred objects to me, and I generally never mark one - even a textbook. But as I read these SB books, I find I have no compunction against highlighting, writing notes in the margins... In fact, I am thinking of stamping "This piece of garbage is for research purposes only" on the inside cover, in case they ever fall into innocent hands...

Don't know if I could burn one, though.

I just tried looking thru several of SB's books and boy are they a bunch of horse dung. How can anyone believe this stuff??Largely, for the same reasons people would believe in her act. Both the act and the books promote a message (there is an afterlife) that many people find comforting, and so they abandon reason in the face of their need to be comforted. And, as Sonja alluded to earlier: if Montel swears by it, week after week, year after year - it MUST be true.

Montel isn't in the same league as Oprah (who say she loved a book written by a monkey and it would become a best-seller), but he has a loyal fan base. I think many of them would never have watched Sylvia a second time had she not been on his show.

How will she be able to realize anything after death?Yeah, one downside to not believing in an afterlife: you'll never get to say "I told you so!!" :D

Well, I actually got the refund today!Glad to hear it, Sonja. That would have just been rubbing salt in the wound had they not refunded it. And if writing those letters and getting it off your chest will help you, write them! Maybe if enough people in your position wrote to Montel, it would have an effect.

[RSLancastr]

I'm no psychic, but I feel that this woman does not believe any of the claptrap that emanates from her mouth and mind.I think it's a safe bet.

As to your theory of how she got to be the way she is: your guess is as good as mine.

[Minarvia]

Well, I actually got the refund today! I really had my doubts as to whether I would ever see that money again. Now that I've got my money back, I'm contemplating writing a scathing letter to Sylvia Browne, but that may be a waste of time. I do definitely plan to email Montel Williams and tell him how I feel about him promoting a fraud.

YES!!! I was thinking, like you were, that you would not actually get the refund. Sometimes it's great to be wrong!
Please DO write Montel. I wonder if he has EVER answered people who write to him about Sylvia. People must write him, I'm sure of it. And you've got a personal experience to back up your concern.

[Windom]

How are they continuing to get away with this?
Because stupidity is infinite :) There are and always will be people too dumb for any kind of evidence. True Believers, that is.

Welcome to the forums, I'm glad to see there are some intelligent people who are not blind to evidences too :)

[Windom]

You came to the wrong place. This place will only guide you to the opposite extreme.


Is there anything wrong with extremely not believing in ****? :D

[Bri]

Well, I actually got the refund today! I really had my doubts as to whether I would ever see that money again. Now that I've got my money back, I'm contemplating writing a scathing letter to Sylvia Browne, but that may be a waste of time. I do definitely plan to email Montel Williams and tell him how I feel about him promoting a fraud.

I'm not at all surprised that you got the refund. If they didn't refund your money, they would be legally required to send you your tape of the reading, which they don't want to do (assuming they haven't destroyed it). If they didn't give you the refund or the tape, you could have sued them, and they would have had to explain under oath why they didn't send you the tape (or if they destroyed it, explain why the tape was destroyed). Either way, avoiding the bad publicity was probably easily worth the refund to them.

It sounded from your correspondence that you never requested a refund. It's a lot of money, so I'd probably keep the refund if I were you, but I wonder what they'd say if you told them that you don't want the refund and asked for the tape.

-Bri

[supermonkey]

this is wonderful that you got the refund now we need to smash this foolishness and try to educate people about science and get them to stop buying into this stupidity!

[articulett]

Well, I actually got the refund today! I really had my doubts as to whether I would ever see that money again. Now that I've got my money back, I'm contemplating writing a scathing letter to Sylvia Browne, but that may be a waste of time. I do definitely plan to email Montel Williams and tell him how I feel about him promoting a fraud.

Congratulations--and do write to Montel. And share your story with others--then they can learn from your mistakes and spread the knowledge.
(And feel a little smug to know that you would never deceive people in that manner--you are trustworthy, and assumed Sylvia Brown to be the same.)

Sylvia taught you a very some very important lessons about who is trustworthy (and what kind of evidence is trustworthy)--she may not have meant to teach you that--but it's a very useful lesson. After feeling bad, you will probably start feeling good--Sylvia Browne has no special talents or means of obtaining higher truths. It's very possible that no one does. That means that ordinary people can learn all there is to know about a subject without the worry of finding someone that is tapped into "other dimensions".

[articulett]

Is there anything wrong with extremely not believing in ****? :D


Indeed. Randi hasn't believed in any sort of woo for years--and he's never been wrong. It's amazing how often you are right by setting your BS detector to
Skeptic. It saves a lot of time, money, tears, and brain cells. (Plus it's fun!)

[sonja]

I'm not at all surprised that you got the refund. If they didn't refund your money, they would be legally required to send you your tape of the reading, which they don't want to do (assuming they haven't destroyed it). If they didn't give you the refund or the tape, you could have sued them, and they would have had to explain under oath why they didn't send you the tape (or if they destroyed it, explain why the tape was destroyed). Either way, avoiding the bad publicity was probably easily worth the refund to them.

It sounded from your correspondence that you never requested a refund. It's a lot of money, so I'd probably keep the refund if I were you, but I wonder what they'd say if you told them that you don't want the refund and asked for the tape.

-Bri

Bri - I think you're right about them not wanting me to have the tape. As soon as I expressed my disappointment in the reading he immediately told me that I would get a refund, but that I would not get the tape. He was very rude about the whole thing. I NEVER at any time asked for the refund. I was just shocked about the whole thing and pretty much speechless - I never expressed any kind of anger just major disappointment. I suspect when a reading goes as badly as it did with mine, that they try to minimize the damage that it could cause by destroying the tape. Also, to keep the person from making too much noise they issue a refund. The "Office Manager" made the comment that I should be happy about getting a free reading. (Well, I wasn't). To answer your question, I'm sure they have already destroyed the tape. Sonja

[Bri]

To answer your question, I'm sure they have already destroyed the tape. Sonja

I'm sure you're right, Sonja, and I'm sure you're not the first this has happened to! I suppose you could count yourself as lucky. Had the reading gone "well" (i.e. had he been able to fool you into thinking that he really knew something about you that you didn't already know yourself) you would be out the money, you'd have a worthless cold-reading, AND you'd still believe that he and Sylvia are the real deal. As it is, you are now richer and wiser than most who have called, so from that perspective it was a win-win situation for you!

I wonder whether it was legal for them to destroy the tape without your asking for a refund. After all, once you paid for it, the tape was your property, not theirs. Any attorneys reading this thread?

-Bri

[Marc L]

I wonder whether it was legal for them to destroy the tape without your asking for a refund. After all, once you paid for it, the tape was your property, not theirs. Any attorneys reading this thread?


IANAL, but I imagine since they told her they were giving her a refund (ie, they refused to do business with her, which is their right), then the tape was theirs to do with as they will.

Marc

[Bri]

IANAL, but I imagine since they told her they were giving her a refund (ie, they refused to do business with her, which is their right), then the tape was theirs to do with as they will.

Marc

Could be. But it seems that once they take your money, the product (in this case the tape) belongs to the customer, not to them. IF they have a money-back guarantee and IF the customer is not satisfied and IF the customer decides to return the item, THEN the customer may return the item. But it would seem to be up to the customer to decide whether they want to return it, not them.

For example, imagine going into a store and buying a pair of socks, and handing the cashier the money. After putting the money in the register, you mention that maybe the socks aren't going to be warm enough during the winter. The cashier then grabs the socks and tells you that you're going to get a refund whether you want to or not. (In this case, the cashier also tells you that you should be happy just to have done business with a store of this caliber). I doubt that would be legal since the socks were yours when the store accepted your money, and it would be up to you to decide whether you wanted to return them for a refund or not.

-Bri

[sonja]

One thing that I was told when I first called regarding having a reading was that a taped copy of the reading would be made and mailed to me, but it would be the only tape made and they would have no copies in case the tape did not arrive in the mail (the meaning I took away was if the tape was lost in the mail they couldn't replace it). When Chris called he told me that he was recording the reading and then again made the same statement that they would mail the tape but couldn't guarantee me receiving it. I know they brag about doing 15 or more readings a day each, but it seems like they would have some kind of back-up system. Or the very least insure the tape for the cost of the reading so at least the client could be reimbursed if the tape didn't make it. I don't know exactly what would have happened if I had told Chris, no, that I did want the tape and I would still pay for the reading. When I expressed my disappointment, he did nothing to try to make things right by giving me more of a reading or try to smooth things over. He just immediately became angry and told me that I would not get the tape and I would get a refund. He didn't even ask me if that is what I wanted. Again, I was so stunned by the whole thing, I basically didn't say much. I have to wonder how many of these tapes "get lost in the mail". Especially ones where it was pretty obvious that the reading did not go well.

[Yahzi]

Sylvia taught you a very some very important lessons about who is trustworthy
Ya... that lesson cost me about $5000 on the stock market.

I figure, if you take that class from the school of hard knocks for less than $10,000 these days, you got a discount on your tuition.

:D

[Bri]

One thing that I was told when I first called regarding having a reading was that a taped copy of the reading would be made and mailed to me, but it would be the only tape made and they would have no copies in case the tape did not arrive in the mail (the meaning I took away was if the tape was lost in the mail they couldn't replace it).

Wow! I've never heard of such a thing. It costs less than a dollar for a casette tape, so why they wouldn't keep copies I cannot imagine. They probably DO in fact make copies, at least of the "good" readings.

A normal business model would be to provide a single copy of the tape included in the cost of the reading, but to keep a copy in case the customer wishes to purchase additional copies, loses the tape, the tape doesn't arrive in the mail, etc. For the price they charge, they could certainly insure the tape. They could even charge you a minimal fee for the casette, shipping, handling, and perhaps a copy fee if the tape doesn't arrive for some reason and you opt not to pay extra to insure it. Their policy of telling you that the tape might not arrive and that there is no copy is a business model I've never heard of and is immediately suspicious. If I mail-order something from a company and they tell me that the product "might not make it" and that I have no recourse whatsoever if it doesn't arrive, I would have to say "thanks, but no thanks." Especially if it costs hundreds of dollars.

-Bri

[Marc L]

One thing that I was told when I first called regarding having a reading was that a taped copy of the reading would be made and mailed to me, but it would be the only tape made and they would have no copies in case the tape did not arrive in the mail (the meaning I took away was if the tape was lost in the mail they couldn't replace it). When Chris called he told me that he was recording the reading and then again made the same statement that they would mail the tape but couldn't guarantee me receiving it. I know they brag about doing 15 or more readings a day each, but it seems like they would have some kind of back-up system. Or the very least insure the tape for the cost of the reading so at least the client could be reimbursed if the tape didn't make it. I don't know exactly what would have happened if I had told Chris, no, that I did want the tape and I would still pay for the reading. When I expressed my disappointment, he did nothing to try to make things right by giving me more of a reading or try to smooth things over. He just immediately became angry and told me that I would not get the tape and I would get a refund. He didn't even ask me if that is what I wanted. Again, I was so stunned by the whole thing, I basically didn't say much. I have to wonder how many of these tapes "get lost in the mail". Especially ones where it was pretty obvious that the reading did not go well.

This behavior leads me to wonder if in fact they really do make tapes.

Marc

[Deus Ex Machina]

Again, thanks to everyone for your support. It was the first reading I've ever had from a pychic and I had always believed that most of them were fake, but I did believe in Sylvia Browne and her son. I feel a lot of my beliefs have been shattered and its pretty disheartening for me right now.

Sonja - as many others on this thread have said, welcome! It is disheartening indeed to find out that there are things that are held dear that turn out to be untrue. It has happened to everyone. But it can be a wonderfully enlightening period. Sylvia Browne is not a "bad pschic" she is just a miserable excuse for a conwoman.

Psychics are frauds, some of them are deluded frauds to be sure - but they are frauds. People like Browne, Praagh, Edwards make their livings out of milking the grief and forlorn hopes of thousands of people.

You have come far Sonja - you have one more step to make. You thought most psychics were fakes but that Browne was the "real deal". Can you make the next step to looking at the fact that NONE OF THEM are "real"?

[RSLancastr]

This behavior leads me to wonder if in fact they really do make tapes.Well, Mr. Randi has received copies of some. A couple of them are compared in this commentary item (http://www.randi.org/jr/122404alien.html#3).

[alfaniner]

This behavior leads me to wonder if in fact they really do make tapes.

Marc

It is so simple (and free) nowadays to make mp3's, why bother with cassettes? Oh, the money you can charge...

[valis]

Well, if this place guides her to the opposite extreme of feeling stupid and devastated, then I'd say it's the right place.

Well in fairness (although frankly I am not sure exactly what Huntster was getting at) the niceness is only predicated on her anti psychic comments.

If she starts talking about how she knows SB is a fraud and is just thankful she still has Jesus there are people here who will be more than rude about it.

[Flo]

Well in fairness (although frankly I am not sure exactly what Huntster was getting at) the niceness is only predicated on her anti psychic comments.

If she starts talking about how she knows SB is a fraud and is just thankful she still has Jesus there are people here who will be more than rude about it.


This has been amply proved wrong, if only in the "Psychics and missing people" thread ... Furthermore, there are more than a few well respected people on this board who are very open about their religious beliefs. The dividing line, IMO, is when someone is playing their religious belief à la KuriousKathy ...

[articulett]

Ya... that lesson cost me about $5000 on the stock market.

I figure, if you take that class from the school of hard knocks for less than $10,000 these days, you got a discount on your tuition.

:D

Given tuition prices these days, I reckon you are right. But this forum is free--and fun--and edifying. If the OP uses this forum as a means of being a better consumer, then she may well have saved herself (and others) money and grief in the long run. Plus she can help bring Sylvia down. People are often afraid to admit they have been conned, which gives these con artists more chances to abuse others. Sylvia Brown needs to go the way of Uri Geller and Peter Popoff and everyone who tells you that you "need" to believe something for it to work--or to have "faith" in them.

Fact: Humans make up explanations for that which they don't understand. People have long used these "explanations" to manipulate others. When humans endeavor to solve mysteries the answers are always "natural"--never has a supernatural claim been supported by measurable evidence or used in science to explain that which is not understood yet. Not once in the eons of belief in such things like demons, curses, ESP, possessions, ghosts, afterlives, or anything else. In science, just like life . . . , failed experiments are just as valuable (or moreso) as far as information goes--than the "successes".

[articulett]

It is so simple (and free) nowadays to make mp3's, why bother with cassettes? Oh, the money you can charge...

Indeed--mp3 on skype=free.

I think someone is also covering their ass after that Virginia Miner fiasco endlessly replayed in cyberspace where Slyvia caught in a lie on live t.v.

It's hard to "remember the hits" when the misses are played ad nauseum. I wonder if they'll do a Sylvia brown montage this year at TAM (I'm getting the letter M...etc.) The Tank (australian podcast) has a clip from a psychic which http://www.skeptics.com.au/tank/060904.mp3 which demonstrates a pretty good cold reading and how it works (for the OP and anyone else who wants to hear it.) with more here: http://skepticalanalysis.com/id73.html

[articulett]

This has been amply proved wrong, if only in the "Psychics and missing people" thread ... Furthermore, there are more than a few well respected people on this board who are very open about their religious beliefs. The dividing line, IMO, is when someone is playing their religious belief à la KuriousKathy ...

Both statements are true. There are long time members who are believers of some sort, but most of the forum is atheistic and likely to ask people for evidence if they state a claim with the presumption others agree. (e.g. "Sylvia Browne will surely end up in hell"). If you have beliefs you want to keep and they are tenuous, then you probably shouldn't bring them up here. And the guys seem to fight in far more barbed ways than the women may be used to --it can seem "scary" and "foreign" to a woman at first (not Kurious Kathy though--she's got the shield of faith and her logic is impervious and impenetrable). I kind of like it--I can speak a little more freely when I'm not afraid people I'm hiding behind a screen and not in book throwing distance.
Where as can one skewer sacred cows with such glee?

[monoman]

.... I have really mulled over why Montel Williams gives her so much support. I have in the past found him and his program to be pretty credible....

From memory, I think it’s to do with Montel having MS. Sylvia has, supposedly , seen into the future and told Montel that a cure will soon be available. It’s her usual pattern of using someone’s vulnerability for her own personal gain.

[rjh01]

Indeed--mp3 on skype=free.

I think someone is also covering their ass after that Virginia Miner fiasco endlessly replayed in cyberspace where Slyvia caught in a lie on live t.v.

It's hard to "remember the hits" when the misses are played ad nauseum. I wonder if they'll do a Sylvia brown montage this year at TAM (I'm getting the letter M...etc.) The Tank (australian podcast) has a clip from a psychic which http://www.skeptics.com.au/tank/060904.mp3 which demonstrates a pretty good cold reading and how it works (for the OP and anyone else who wants to hear it.) with more here: http://skepticalanalysis.com/id73.html

After reading this I had an image of a MAN pretending to be Slyvia being interviewed at TAM. What this person actually says would be very educational and funny.

My only regret is that I cannot go to TAM to see it.