I got a job offer. But I think it's a scam. [Archive]

Nathyn

22nd November 2006, 01:19 PM

OK, so for our VoIP, we had a guy come over to fix it. He's a contractor. While he was in my room, he saw my computer junk laying around and asked me, "You're a computer guy?" I said, "Yeah," and he said, "Me too."

Then he said he runs his own IT company and needs somebody that can do HTML. I told him I can do it, of course I can (and I can). I know HTML very well and can write it by hand. I know HTML pretty much inside out.

Anyway, the job offer is this: He needs somebody to make thousands of very basic websites with random content and said he'd pay me $65 per website I create for him. It doesn't have to be pretty and can be very basic.

That's a lot of money and sounds too good to be true, which is why I thought it sounded strange. When I asked him what it was for, he said he couldn't tell me. I get the feeling that the guy is an illegal spammer.

When I tried to pry more into the details, he said that they were selling the websites to somebody... Then later, he said that they were using for "internet relay," mentioning that they have some system set-up where they set up domain names and use the websites, and get revenue from people accessing them (which sounded like spam to me). The only real reason he'd have to keep that a secret is either he's embarased about being a spammer or because the spam he's doing is against the law (some spam is illegal, some isn't).

Does this sound like a scam to anybody? It seemed kind of shady to me, but the only question I really need to ask is, "Where's my paycheck?"

I told him I'd need a day to think about it. I'm going to ask him for a formal contract, preferably a written contract. If not a written contract, I'm at least going to invite one of my neighbors over and have them be a third-party witness to our verbal agreement. Most importantly of all, I don't want to do this work and then not get paid... If that happens, well, I can report him to the VoIP company that contracts him for soliciting services while doing jobs for them, which is most likely a no-no.

I hope it turns out well, because I could use this money for college tuition and, like he said, $65 per website for just making websites is a hell of a lot more than making $10\hour doing data entry (something I've been considering doing, recently, for college funds).

This isn't exactly "paranormal," but it is about skepticism: I'm pretty skeptical about this deal and I thought I'd ask other skeptics here if they've heard of any scam like this, before, or suggestions as to what I should do.

If the mods think it's more suited for the "forum community," forum, then yeah, move it, but I thought it was sort of either\or.

Garrette

22nd November 2006, 01:28 PM

I know nothing about VOIP or html or the like, but I would be extremely wary of working with any company that will not answer basic questions.

JoeTheJuggler

22nd November 2006, 01:36 PM

It seemed kind of shady to me, but the only question I really need to ask is, "Where's my paycheck?"

I hope you don't really think that way. If you did, then why the posting?

JoeDaJuggler's rule of thumb vis-a-vis the ethics of easy money: Getting paid a lot for doing something of little or no apparent value is ALWAYS a red flag calling for more information. (I use a similar response to Amway promoters--if what you say is true--which it's not--do you think it's even moral to take people's money and not do anything to earn it?)

I also think it's important to make it your business to know the consequences of what you do for a living. We throw drug dealers in jail because their actions (motivated mostly by relatively "easy money" compared to the prospects of flipping burgers for minimum wage) might be harmful to some drug users. (Why the same standards aren't applied to weapons manufacturers escapes me. Seems like it's always popular to sell fighters and bombers to anyone with money.)

I remember when May Co. got in trouble for buying their goods from sweat shops. Their response was basically "we didn't know". A coalition bought enough shares to bring a resolution (or rule proposal or whatever) to the board saying that they should make it their business to know the conditions of the factories they buy from--it was quickly voted down.

A story on the local news (here in St. Louis) yesterday: a local woman got an on-line job after being unemployed for way too long. She received packages of electronics purchased on e-bay (with, as it turns out stolen credit card numbers), repackaged them, and shipped them off to foreign addresses mostly in easter Europe. The news story made it seem that she was also a victim of the scam. I don't buy that--something in the set up should've made her ask a few more questions.

I hope you forego the easy money unless you can verify that this operation is legit.

Nathyn

22nd November 2006, 01:44 PM

I hope you don't really think that way. If you did, then why the posting?
Just because you guys might have some insight as to why I won't receive my pay.

JoeDaJuggler's rule of thumb vis-a-vis the ethics of easy money: Getting paid a lot for doing something of little or no apparent value is ALWAYS a red flag calling for more information. (I use a similar response to Amway promoters--if what you say is true--which it's not--do you think it's even moral to take people's money and not do anything to earn it?)
Not necessarily. My father is an orthopedic technician. Well, the company he works for runs a website and they got rid of the guy who maintained it, so they had my father run it. He charged them ridiculous amounts of money for just writing basic HTML. What's valuable for one person may not seem to be as valuable to another.

I also think it's important to make it your business to know the consequences of what you do for a living. We throw drug dealers in jail because their actions (motivated mostly by relatively "easy money" compared to the prospects of flipping burgers for minimum wage) might be harmful to some drug users. (Why the same standards aren't applied to weapons manufacturers escapes me. Seems like it's always popular to sell fighters and bombers to anyone with money.)
Can't really see how making websites could be contributing to any apparent evil. Perhaps the guy is breaking the law in some way, but breaking the law isn't inherently immoral. And if what he's doing is immoral, if I'm ignorant of it, it's not my problem. From a philosophical perspective, if it's willful ignorance, I'm partially responsible too. But I'm no saint and I can't conceive of how this work would really contribute to any extreme evil.

I remember when May Co. got in trouble for buying their goods from sweat shops. Their response was basically "we didn't know". A coalition bought enough shares to bring a resolution (or rule proposal or whatever) to the board saying that they should make it their business to know the conditions of the factories they buy from--it was quickly voted down.

A story on the local news (here in St. Louis) yesterday: a local woman got an on-line job after being unemployed for way too long. She received packages of electronics purchased on e-bay (with, as it turns out stolen credit card numbers), repackaged them, and shipped them off to foreign addresses mostly in easter Europe. The news story made it seem that she was also a victim of the scam. I don't buy that--something in the set up should've made her ask a few more questions.

I hope you forego the easy money unless you can verify that this operation is legit.
If I don't find money for college soon, I'm joining the military.

Now, you tell me, what's contributing to more evil: Working for some private crook or working for a government of crooks?

bourgeois_rage

22nd November 2006, 01:50 PM

If the guy can't answer basic questions about what he's doing, I'd be skeptical that there's a job there at all. Sounds like he either not organized and the job will never actually materialize, or he's doing something shady. Since you don't seem to care about the shady aspect, I'd only be worried about the job start date, and when you get your cash. Will it even happen? I'd need more assurance that he's actually got a start date in mind.

RenaissanceBiker

22nd November 2006, 02:15 PM

If I don't find money for college soon, I'm joining the military.

That's how I paid for college.

Rasmus

22nd November 2006, 02:18 PM

Anyway, the job offer is this: He needs somebody to make thousands of very basic websites with random content and said he'd pay me $65 per website I create for him. It doesn't have to be pretty and can be very basic.

So besides the question of if you can really produce thousands of separate webpages (in a reasonable amount of time, of course), what kinds of random content he has in mind (just gibberish? filer texts, or proper content but without any common theme, etc?) I must wonder why a guy willing to shell out in excess of 130,000$ for one (!) contractor/employee needs to work for a VoIP provider.

That's a lot of money and sounds too good to be true, which is why I thought it sounded strange. When I asked him what it was for, he said he couldn't tell me. I get the feeling that the guy is an illegal spammer.

Which is even stranger - most spam pages are generated; i.e. there are thousands of near-identical pages, but these certainly aren't written individually. If you were to write these pages, that somebody else would have to go and turn them into spam pages (i.e. include ads, etc.)

When I tried to pry more into the details, he said that they were selling the websites to somebody... Then later, he said that they were using for "internet relay," mentioning that they have some system set-up where they set up domain names and use the websites, and get revenue from people accessing them (which sounded like spam to me).

Spam indeed.

The only real reason he'd have to keep that a secret is either he's embarased about being a spammer or because the spam he's doing is against the law (some spam is illegal, some isn't).

Nothing illegal about setting up pointless andempty websites; most of the spam I come across appears to be legal. I find it hard to belive, though,that a single page would easily generate enough money to allow anyone to pay 65$ for its making.

Does this sound like a scam to anybody? It seemed kind of shady to me, but the only question I really need to ask is, "Where's my paycheck?"

I am sorry, I don't know how shady businesses and their partners handle these things.

I told him I'd need a day to think about it. I'm going to ask him for a formal contract, preferably a written contract. If not a written contract, I'm at least going to invite one of my neighbors over and have them be a third-party witness to our verbal agreement.

If you're willing to work for a company that refuses a written contract you truly deserve everything that'll happen to you as a consequence.

Most importantly of all, I don't want to do this work and then not get paid... If that happens, well, I can report him to the VoIP company that contracts him for soliciting services while doing jobs for them, which is most likely a no-no.

Of course, without a contract it'll be hard to prove such accusations...

I hope it turns out well, because I could use this money for college tuition and, like he said, $65 per website for just making websites is a hell of a lot more than making $10\hour doing data entry (something I've been considering doing, recently, for college funds).

Of course, you have no idea what one of those websites should actually be like. Even a "very basic" website, if done right, might take you more than those 6 hours, especially if there are demands regarding the variety of those thousands of sites.

This isn't exactly "paranormal," but it is about skepticism: I'm pretty skeptical about this deal and I thought I'd ask other skeptics here if they've heard of any scam like this, before, or suggestions as to what I should do.

I would just give you ethical advise on what you "should" do, but since you don't seem to care, I might as well not.

Starthinker

22nd November 2006, 02:26 PM

Nathyn

22nd November 2006, 02:34 PM

So besides the question of if you can really produce thousands of separate webpages (in a reasonable amount of time, of course), what kinds of random content he has in mind (just gibberish? filer texts, or proper content but without any common theme, etc?) I must wonder why a guy willing to shell out in excess of 130,000$ for one (!) contractor/employee needs to work for a VoIP provider.
He didn't make it clear at all. He just kept saying that the content could be random, that it could be anything I want.

Also, of course he isn't going to shell out THAT much money, not all at once, of course not.

Which is even stranger - most spam pages are generated; i.e. there are thousands of near-identical pages, but these certainly aren't written individually. If you were to write these pages, that somebody else would have to go and turn them into spam pages (i.e. include ads, etc.)

Spam indeed.
It sounds like he's doing link-farming. I.E., search-engines might filter out results if they see any pattern of auto-generated spam. So, you have somebody manually make the pages and then just tag them with a link to whatever page you want high up in the results.

Nothing illegal about setting up pointless andempty websites; most of the spam I come across appears to be legal. I find it hard to belive, though,that a single page would easily generate enough money to allow anyone to pay 65$ for its making.
Spamming people's email addresses anonymously is illegal and certain states probably restrict spam more than others.

I am sorry, I don't know how shady businesses and their partners handle these things.

If you're willing to work for a company that refuses a written contract you truly deserve everything that'll happen to you as a consequence.
I get the feeling that it's either a single guy or perhaps just a few small people.

I mean, as you point out further along in this thread, it's sort of incredulous to believe that a guy running an "IT company," would be helping people install VoIP.

Of course, without a contract it'll be hard to prove such accusations...
But not impossible. I will have to deliver his websites to him, somehow. And I can get his full contact info, probably even the name of his company. If I bring this information to his employer, it's fairly substantial proof -- how else could I have gotten the information?

Of course, you have no idea what one of those websites should actually be like. Even a "very basic" website, if done right, might take you more than those 6 hours, especially if there are demands regarding the variety of those thousands of sites.
No, he made it clear that there are no real specific demands at all. I could generate websites a lot more quickly than once every six hours. Once I get down to it, I'd make a rough estimate that I could do one every 1-2 hours.

Keep in mind, it's not a professional or particularly presentable website. It's just a random website.

I would just give you ethical advise on what you "should" do, but since you don't seem to care, I might as well not.
If I wanted ethical advice, I'd go to a philosophy forum, a religious forum, or some other such kind of forum. Actually, if I wanted ethical advice, I probably wouldn't ask anyone on the internet at all. And I don't.

I posted this in a skeptical forum because I want practical advice over what your observations are over this kind of deal and if you've ever heard of any kind of similar scams before. Being skeptics, you can answer that kind of question, though it's apparent that you're equally capable of lecturing me on morality.

Nathyn

22nd November 2006, 02:39 PM

I see commercials several times throughout the day like this: "I used the money I made working from home to BUY my home! Just go to this website!" and in every single commercial (I've been watching) the web address is different. I went to one once and no where on the site does it tell you what you will be doing at home. Just give your name, phone, and address, and other junk stuff. The commercial doesn't mention what these people do at home either.

Anyway, seeing a different web page for every commercial made me wonder who was making all those different sites and then I saw this thread. The web pages in the commericials were stuff like home1zz2d.com and such. I wonder if they are related?

Anyway, without the mention of a single product or what you'd be doing made me think it was some kind of elaborate web page pyramid scheme. Not saying it's what you were asked to do, but your post really put me in mind of those commericials.
That's just another get-rich-quick scheme. One common one is real estate, the idea that you can buy and re-sell properties and become extremely wealthy (and you can, but very, very, very few do it with no money to start off with, which the ads don't say). Well, the commercial you're citing right now is the same thing, but instead of real estate, it's domain-squatting. They teach people domain-squatting for substantial fees and then, the person most likely loses money in the end. Again, domain-squatting can work, but it's not particularly easy to do since the industry is already so saturated with people trying to find good available domain names, so they can plaster them with ads and live off the revenue. Not to mention that domain-squatting probably isn't profitable unless you have the technical expertise and resources to googlebomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlebomb).

Starthinker

22nd November 2006, 02:58 PM

That's just another get-rich-quick scheme. One common one is real estate, the idea that you can buy and re-sell properties and become extremely wealthy (and you can, but very, very, very few do it with no money to start off with, which the ads don't say). Well, the commercial you're citing right now is the same thing, but instead of real estate, it's domain-squatting. They teach people domain-squatting for substantial fees and then, the person most likely loses money in the end. Again, domain-squatting can work, but it's not particularly easy to do since the industry is already so saturated with people trying to find good available domain names, so they can plaster them with ads and live off the revenue. Not to mention that domain-squatting probably isn't profitable unless you have the technical expertise and resources to googlebomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlebomb).

I think you misunderstood me. All the websites are identical-they are just at different addresses. The addresses are clearly made up (homebuzz32343.com and such-not something anyone would want), but if you started to visit some of them they are all exactly the same. Nothing to do with real estate or domain squatting, I just think they are paying to get into the scheme, make a website, then direct others to that website and get paid for more people making websites. When I see one of these tonight I'll grab the site and post it. They make absolutely, positively no reference as to what you would be doing, but they DO say it's a web-based business, so that's why I don't think it's real estate.

Also, why so long to make a basic site? Just a white background with black letters can take a minute or two then just make a template from that and change the page content slightly. It took me longer to type this post. Of course it depends what they want, they must want something.

Sounds interesting. Sign me up. Well, once you're sure you actually get paid.

EatatJoes

22nd November 2006, 03:25 PM

Well, if it is legit and you have no problems doing the job, then do it. However, claim the money on your taxes. I know a couple of people that made quick money doing various things online but never claimed it. They got audited and they got into trouble. Just a reminder:)

Brian Jackson

22nd November 2006, 04:02 PM

When in doubt, don't.

Yahzi

22nd November 2006, 08:52 PM

sounds too good to be true
Then you already know the answer.

My question is, why can't you write a program that makes web sites? I mean, if they have random content...

Zygar

22nd November 2006, 09:19 PM

When in doubt, don't.

Exactly my thoughts.

geni

22nd November 2006, 09:54 PM

Some kind of SEO? Different html setups to fool the bots into thinking the sites are legit. Could be but 65$ seems way to high for that. Even if they were selling sex or drugs.

Assuming text has to contain real words rather than just random letter combinations then adwords farming. But from what I've seen good content goes for about 40$ per page.

Selling domians? perhaps if you can demonstraight an existing revinue stream they will go for more but this does seem to be an odd aproach to doing that.

Seo seems the most likely for what is being produced but I can't belive it would be worth the price.

RemieV

22nd November 2006, 10:12 PM

Did anyone mention what the limit was for pay?

Because there's no way that anyone would actually get paid $65 per website limitlessly.

bpesta22

22nd November 2006, 10:26 PM

JonnyFive

22nd November 2006, 10:55 PM

Since this ground has been pretty well covered, I'll try to add something of unique value to it.

Does this guy's "company" have some kind of legal designation (corporation, LLC, partnership)? Does it have a physical location or some kind of presence other than his house and contact info?

If you aren't offered a formal employment arrangement of some kind, forget it. That's a legal cover-yer-butt move on the part of the "employer." The only reason to refuse even a simple "I agree to hire Nathyn and pay him $65 per web site" contract is to avoid giving you legal recourse in court when you're trying to get paid. Not to say you wouldn't be able to prove you were owed money, but it would be considerably more difficult for you to get what you were originally promised, if anything at all.

The comment about taxes is also extremely good advice. If you do decide to work for this guy and make a good chunk of money, then make sure you're paying the correct amount. I'm guessing you wouldn't be a standard W2 employee, so you'd be responsible for your full FICA tax, among other things (I'm not a tax expert, so I'm not sure of all the repercussions).

The refusal to explain exactly what is being done should also raise a huge, hulking red flag. No legitimate business has any reason to conceal the basic reasons why its employees do their jobs. The employees don't need to know every little detail of every sensitive business function, but "you don't need to know why you're making random web sites" is pure USDA prime bull plop. Also, if you ever end up in court over this (and I suspect you just might), such ignorance will probably not help you much.

Seriously, if the deal is so great, why the heck is he contracting for a VoIP company? It's not like they pay the big bucks.

Rasmus

22nd November 2006, 11:13 PM

He didn't make it clear at all. He just kept saying that the content could be random, that it could be anything I want.

A guy willing to pay 65$ per website should fint it easy to answer a question with at least enough detail to clearly differetiate between "webpage" and "website" as well as "gibberish", "content, as long as it makes sense" and "regualr blind text using standart English words".

Also, of course he isn't going to shell out THAT much money, not all at once, of course not.

No? He said he'd be needing thousands of websites at $65 a piece. So he is saying he's willing to play at least that much. If he doesn't realize just howe much money he offered you it seems he doesn't really have a clue what he's doing, what he's asking and what he is - in fact - promising. Or, of course, he just has no intention of paying what he's promising.

Why is it you have to guess these things? If I was in need of "thousands of websites" I'd know my time-frame, too!

It sounds like he's doing link-farming. I.E., search-engines might filter out results if they see any pattern of auto-generated spam. So, you have somebody manually make the pages and then just tag them with a link to whatever page you want high up in the results.

At 65$ a page? That'll hardly be profitable. And there would be no need to design different sites - I doubt that the HTML-Structure is a reason for search engines to dismiss a result if it's found several times. No CMS or otzher template driven site would ever again be found by users ...

Spamming people's email addresses anonymously is illegal and certain states probably restrict spam more than others.

True. I wass thinking along the lines of "stuff I saw on websites". That tends to look legal.

I get the feeling that it's either a single guy or perhaps just a few small people.

A single person can sign a contract for you too, though, and being a small company is no reason to refuse that.

I mean, as you point out further along in this thread, it's sort of incredulous to believe that a guy running an "IT company," would be helping people install VoIP.

Yeah. I ran into an old classmate of mine once, and he was trying to get me into an MLM scheme or something,all the time telling me how much money he was making. I just stood there wondering why the heck he was filling shelves in a grocery store ... (I think he even sdlipped in he was doing this "just so", but it wasn't really enough to sucker me in ...)

But not impossible. I will have to deliver his websites to him, somehow. And I can get his full contact info, probably even the name of his company. If I bring this information to his employer, it's fairly substantial proof -- how else could I have gotten the information?

If he actually has a legal business, then yes.

No, he made it clear that there are no real specific demands at all. I could generate websites a lot more quickly than once every six hours. Once I get down to it, I'd make a rough estimate that I could do one every 1-2 hours.

I will not for a second belive that anyone would buy a website at that price and not have any demands at all. I will belive that they are utterly clueless about what writing a website entails. I will belive that they *expect* a lot, but dfon't care if it's blue or green in the end and you will soon find that the things not deemanded were thought of as self-understood.

Keep in mind, it's not a professional or particularly presentable website. It's just a random website.

But that term is meaningless - much more so if we think of a site that should be worth 65$. Even more reason to ask for a contract, preferably one that lines out what a "websitre" is, precisely.

If I wanted ethical advice, I'd go to a philosophy forum, a religious forum, or some other such kind of forum. Actually, if I wanted ethical advice, I probably wouldn't ask anyone on the internet at all. And I don't.

I posted this in a skeptical forum because I want practical advice over what your observations are over this kind of deal and if you've ever heard of any kind of similar scams before. Being skeptics, you can answer that kind of question, though it's apparent that you're equally capable of lecturing me on morality.

Yes, my advise would be "That guy cannot be up to anything good, and it would be wrong of you take part in it." Since I don't think you should take the jpob as things stand, please do not expect any advise on how to best take it. I have no problem telling you how to find out for sure if it is isn't advisable to take it, though.

Nathyn

23rd November 2006, 07:11 AM

I'm wondering what his motivation is for asking you. From the OP, he was a complete stranger, and noticed you had some computer junk lying around, and then asked if you were into computers. You said yes.

You're hired!

I just think it's an odd way to recruit if you really intend to pay 65$ per website.

That's the biggest red flag to me.

Were people getting paid $65 to do what he asks (whether illegal or not) I can't imagine he'd have to solicit strangers to fill his employment needs.

I'm guessing if you follow up, there will be some type of start up money / consideration required from you to get started...
Maybe.

I was also thinking that he might say whether or not I get paid is conditional upon the success of the project, and then just never pay me.

I will not for a second belive that anyone would buy a website at that price and not have any demands at all. I will belive that they are utterly clueless about what writing a website entails. I will belive that they *expect* a lot, but dfon't care if it's blue or green in the end and you will soon find that the things not deemanded were thought of as self-understood.
Maybe, maybe not.

The thing is, $65 sounds like a lot, but if he were to actually pay a professional webmaster to make sites for him, he'd end up paying even more. I know this based upon, as I said, my dad's experience with webmastering. Even though there's an abundance of people in the world who can write HTML (and the standards are pretty simple, just laid out on W3.org), I guess that only the extremely qualified tend to actually answer ads in the classifieds requesting webmasters.

Anyway, contrary to what most people are saying here, I am going to follow-up with the guy. I'm going to ask for some kind of signed, written arrangement. If he refuses that, then yeah, probably some kind of conman. I mean, if he rejects a written arrangement, oh man, I'm just going to have to ask him, "What kind of scam is this, man?"

There is absolutely no reason why he could refuse to adhere to a formal, written contract.

And by the way, I didn't want to say this because it might come off as racist, but the guy's Middle-Eastern, for those of you who want to speculate that he's a terrorist, lol.

sophia8

23rd November 2006, 07:49 AM

I'm late in on this thread. The kind of sites that this guy is describing sound like spam sites that are filled with random content and pay-per-click ads. They make a lot of money for a very few people.
But there's already software that churns out these type of sites automatically - so he doesn't need to pay anybody to write them.
Whatever, his offer sounds worthless.

wahrheit

23rd November 2006, 08:11 AM

If he's "a computer guy" himself, why doesn't he make those sites himself?

Thousands of very basic websites, for $65 each. This guy is willing to pay you $65,000? $150,000? $250,000? LMAO

Having that much money at hand, I wonder why he's fixing other people's VoIP lines.

Nathyn

23rd November 2006, 09:38 AM

If he's "a computer guy" himself, why doesn't he make those sites himself?
Says he doesn't have the time.

Thousands of very basic websites, for $65 each. This guy is willing to pay you $65,000? $150,000? $250,000? LMAO
Yeah. I'm just gonna wait and see. I'm going to ask for a contract. If he says no, I'll do the work anyway for a couple of weeks. If he doesn't pay me. -- oh well, so I did a couple weeks of easy work and didn't get paid. I'll just quit and with no big loss.

I really have nothing to lose and a fair amount to gain.

I called him today and his cell phone was seriously screwed up, said he was out-of-town. I got his email address. He wants my contact info and he's getting back to me Monday.

Q-Source

23rd November 2006, 09:47 AM

Having that much money at hand, I wonder why he's fixing other people's VoIP lines.

:D This is the same thing I thought. It sounds fishy, maybe he does not want to take responsability if things go wrong.

wahrheit

23rd November 2006, 01:30 PM

I'm going to ask for a contract. If he says no, I'll do the work anyway for a couple of weeks.
Though I am very suspicious about this strange deal, there's a most effective and very simple way to figure out if he's serious: One third upfront. I have not lifted a finger in the past 8 years without a client paying one third upfront. Never has anyone hesitated to agree to this.

Cuddles

24th November 2006, 05:03 AM

Says he doesn't have the time.

He is doing something that makes him enough money that he can pay $65 per website and still make a profit. He has enough time to work a job that pays peanuts, yet he doesn't have enough time to make himself hundreds of thousands of dollars. He is lying.

I really have nothing to lose

Jail.

JonnyFive

26th November 2006, 05:01 AM

I really have nothing to lose and a fair amount to gain.

I called him today and his cell phone was seriously screwed up, said he was out-of-town. I got his email address. He wants my contact info and he's getting back to me Monday.

In addition to the earlier "jail" response, I would add that you have your time to lose, time and effort you might expend in court or with a lawyer trying to track this guy down, and your personal information if there's some kind of identity theft scam going on here.

NobbyNobbs

26th November 2006, 05:43 AM

Take a look at the thread title. You have your answer there. If you continue regardless, it's because you are being blinded by the thought of "free money". The consequences are as you deserve.

SkepticScott

26th November 2006, 06:02 AM

I really have nothing to lose and a fair amount to gain.Until you find out that he was involved in something illegal, he can't be found, but the authorities find out that you created all those web pages and come knocking on your door.

Even if it were merely borderline unethical, if I were thinking of hiring you for a legitimate job, and I found out your past history included something unethical, I would not hire you because you've shown a lack of character. Any employer would have to trust you to follow their rules, and if you have a history of playing fast and loose with society's rules, then they'd suspect you might do the same with their rules.

You've got a lot to lose. Find out more before doing any work for that guy. Get a signed contract specifying everything.

You may find that it's like a common work-at-home scam. In those you have to buy materials and assemble them, and are paid so much for each "acceptable" item. You find that none of your work is "acceptable".

chran

26th November 2006, 07:51 AM

Dude, you're going to do it no matter what we say, that much is clear from your responses.

So stop wasting everybody's time and do it. Sheesh.

ChrisC

26th November 2006, 09:08 AM

I hate to admit it, being 'Mr. Level-Headed, Master-Of-My-Emotions' and all, but very recently I've had the same dilemma with a completely unrelated and essentially legal opportunity. It sounds like you're trying to rationalize something that you know is BS because the personal benefit carries enough weight for you to shut off your ethics and BS meter, or at least turn them way down. It's one of main ways that things like pyramid schemes work. "I'm kind of unsure/weary, but it's such a great sounding opportunity" (and they always come along at just the right time, no?). I'm ashamed that I even considered my "opportunity" before I got over my emotions, but I'm a better person for realizing that I'm not as infallible in that area as I once believed.

Look at the overwhelming negative response from third parties with nothing invested in this one way or the other. If that's not meaningful, then there was no point in asking in the first place. There are better ways to make money than as an accomplice in someone's scheme. If you get involved and it turns out to be something bunk or illegitimate, will you look back later and kick yourself because all the signs were there and you ignored them?

CLD

26th November 2006, 10:38 AM

Says he doesn't have the time.

Yeah. I'm just gonna wait and see. I'm going to ask for a contract. If he says no, I'll do the work anyway for a couple of weeks. If he doesn't pay me. -- oh well, so I did a couple weeks of easy work and didn't get paid. I'll just quit and with no big loss.

I really have nothing to lose and a fair amount to gain.

I called him today and his cell phone was seriously screwed up, said he was out-of-town. I got his email address. He wants my contact info and he's getting back to me Monday.

If you are going to do this even after he refuses to sign an agreement, it would be good if you could limit your investment to a couple of days instead of a couple of weeks.

Also (and I'm sure you know this, but I have to say it anyway) do not accept offer of a third party check as payment, do not pay any domain, IP access, "processing", "licensing" or "startup" fees, do not give him your drivers license, credit card or bank account information for purposes of background check, credit check, direct deposit, etc. Bear in mind that any request he makes along these lines will sound perfectly reasonable and logical.

personable

26th November 2006, 10:53 AM

My opinion? There's no such thing as a free lunch.

The others have pointed to plenty of aspects of the deal that seem to be incongruous (paying over market rate for this service, doesn't have time to do them himself but has time to work a low paying job but can pay you £00000s in ready money, etc)

The signs all point to a scam; I really hope you don't try to rationalize away the warning signs under the lure of 'big money'.

I hope you will come back though, and let us know if it turned out to be worthwhile in the end or a scam as you originally thought.

ETA: I'd also echo what CLD said above - if you do decide to enrol in this, minimise your involvement with him as far as possible.

Keep the transaction very simple: you provide a site, he pays you as soon as possible (within two days). Promises of deferred payment or tales of hard times should be considered the biggest red flag you would ever get.

luchog

26th November 2006, 01:57 PM

Which is even stranger - most spam pages are generated; i.e. there are thousands of near-identical pages, but these certainly aren't written individually. If you were to write these pages, that somebody else would have to go and turn them into spam pages (i.e. include ads, etc.)

[/QUOTE]
It sounds like these may be redirector or spoof websites. These are a far too common component of credit card harvesting, money laundering, and ID theft fraud. Chances are highly likely that the guy isn't going to pay you for them, and will just keep stringing you along to get as many as he can out of you in the meantime. Even a written contract is meaningless, since there's nothing to guarantee that he hasn't simply forged half the info. If you do get paid, chances are it's going to be from funds aquired by credit card theft.

luchog

26th November 2006, 02:16 PM

It sounds like you're trying to rationalize something that you know is BS because the personal benefit carries enough weight for you to shut off your ethics and BS meter, or at least turn them way down. It's one of main ways that things like pyramid schemes work. "I'm kind of unsure/weary, but it's such a great sounding opportunity" (and they always come along at just the right time, no?). I'm ashamed that I even considered my "opportunity" before I got over my emotions, but I'm a better person for realizing that I'm not as infallible in that area as I once believed.

There's an old aphorism that's been attributed to several famous con men, "You can't cheat an honest man". Pretty much all cons rely on the victim's greed, sense of entitlement, desire for revenge, etc. in order to work. That mental disconnect that says, "it looks suspicious, but...". All a good confidence trickster needs is to do is to get the mark to that "but...", to the stage where he starts to suspend disbelief and focus on the promised reward rather than the plot holes; and the mark does nearly all the rest of the work of convincing himself.

Rasmus

26th November 2006, 02:41 PM

It sounds like these may be redirector or spoof websites. These are a far too common component of credit card harvesting, money laundering, and ID theft fraud. Chances are highly likely that the guy isn't going to pay you for them, and will just keep stringing you along to get as many as he can out of you in the meantime.

I know next to nothing about these. I need to change that, I guess.

Even a written contract is meaningless, since there's nothing to guarantee that he hasn't simply forged half the info. If you do get paid, chances are it's going to be from funds aquired by credit card theft.

And if I steal identities for a living I am sure as hell not going to use my own, real identity in the process. It might even explain why it's worth paying 65$ per site.

A much better explanation, of course, is that I tell my designer that I'll need thousands of pages and then run with just a few dozen of them - and my designer's identity/bank account details if i can.

pipelineaudio

26th November 2006, 04:48 PM

paying 65 bucks a page for a REAL site isnt jack though

I have a friend who does a 12 hour max turnaround on any and all mods, and allows each page to use any content/technology the client wants (including voice-face ) for 150 a page

note I say page, not site

And he has more business than he can handle

Blue Mountain

26th November 2006, 10:30 PM

In addition to the comments about not giving this character ANY personal information--especially stuff that can be used to draw on your bank account or your good name--I'd like to add the following:
1. See if he'll go with the 1/3 up front. If yes, you can be a little less suspicious (emphasis on the "little").
2. Create exactly one web site and ask for payment. Create the second one only when you have full payment for the first. (Or create two to start if he agrees to your 1/3 up front proposal.)

Log everything. Every conversation. Every phone call. Every promise. Every evasion. Every payment, if you're so lucky to get one.

Grimoire

26th November 2006, 10:43 PM

I don't know if it is a scam, but he doesn't sound like a spammer, but more like he is typosquatting. Having said that, be very careful of entering into any business agreement with someone like that. Some money just isn't worth the headache...

JoeTheJuggler

26th November 2006, 10:50 PM

Being skeptics, you can answer that kind of question, though it's apparent that you're equally capable of lecturing me on morality.

I think you're setting up a false distinction. Skepticism is (or ought be) a big part of ethical thinking.

It has to do with what knowledge you have, and whether you would choose to remain ignorant. As has been pointed out, this situation is full of red flags. The only reason for not wanting to get more information is in order to remain ignorant by choice. (The same way a fence doesn't want his suppliers to tell him the goods are stolen--he just buys merchandise at extremely low prices with no questions asked.)

blutoski

26th November 2006, 11:55 PM

Until you find out that he was involved in something illegal, he can't be found, but the authorities find out that you created all those web pages and come knocking on your door.

You've got a lot to lose. Find out more before doing any work for that guy. Get a signed contract specifying everything.

You may find that it's like a common work-at-home scam. In those you have to buy materials and assemble them, and are paid so much for each "acceptable" item. You find that none of your work is "acceptable".

I'm in agreement with this post: I learned a long time ago not to work on spec, and secondly, that there's worse things than being stuck without pay: being connected to a crime.

I remember a few years ago I was walking down a very steep trail to the beach with my wife, and about a quarter of the way down, there was this guy standing there with one of those leg braces on and a super-heavy beach bag. He asked if we could help him carry the bag down to the beach for him. I said 'no'. My wife gave me grief, but when we got to the bottom, I asked her to stand and watch what would have happened.

Sure enough, some kid had accepted, and when he came out of the trail to the beach, two plainclothesmen grabbed the bag and arrested him. The bag contained drugs. The guy with the brace was probably halfway up the trail by now.

Another example is a friend of mine who (back in the '80s) accepted cash payment "under the table" for construction labour. He was laughing all the way to the bank until his boss was arrested for smuggling cocaine. When the police whent over the books, the ledger said my friend had been paid $140,000 over the past year (it was really more like $30,000). Yep: he owed $60,000 in income tax, plus penalties for tax evasion. Evidently, the construction business was being used as a backup money-laundering operation. My friend was on the hook, though.

If it stinks, walk away.