Nuclear plans and components found in Iraq

[Jedi Knight]

Jedi was right.

Apologize, leftists.

JK

[Cain]

I repent, Wise One. Please accept my one thousand sorries, Great Jedi.

I just hope these "components" do not include chemicals like dihydrodgen monoxide. Link?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Cain
[snip]Link?
Here's a link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html

[JAR]

The plot thickens.
Now that he is safe, Obeidi said he believes other scientists would come forward with other components of Iraq's weapons program.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by JAR

Here's a link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html An excerpt:The parts were unearthed by Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them in his back yard under a rose bush 12 years ago... Gosh! :eek: I too must recant. This clearly shows Iraq was an imminent threat to the Western world. How could I have been so blind?

[Agammamon]

He says he hid them 12 years ago. What happend 12 years ago (1991)? OOH, OOH, OOH, MR. Kotter, Mr. Kotter! Desert Storm!

When US intelligence said he had a massive WMD program and we bombed the crap out of it. In 2003? Oh yes, US intelligence said that we bombed the crap out of his WMD program in 1991 and that he doesn't have anything. So now someone trots out a few pieces of an enrichment facility (which is need to enrich fuel for reactors also) that apparently was buried and forgotten for over a decade? Don't expect me to get all excited.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
"The parts were unearthed by Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them in his back yard under a rose bush 12 years ago..."

I wonder if nuclear weapons components make good fertilizer?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Agammamon
He says he hid them 12 years ago. What happend 12 years ago (1991)? OOH, OOH, OOH, MR. Kotter, Mr. Kotter! Desert Storm!

When US intelligence said he had a massive WMD program and we bombed the crap out of it. In 2003? Oh yes, US intelligence said that we bombed the crap out of his WMD program in 1991 and that he doesn't have anything. So now someone trots out a few pieces of an enrichment facility (which is need to enrich fuel for reactors also) that apparently was buried and forgotten for over a decade? Don't expect me to get all excited.
Don't get your hopes up, Agammamon. The CIA is in Iraq and is going to find out more and more about Saddam Hussein and the information it finds won't show that he wasn't all that bad.

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by JAR

Don't get your hopes up, Agammamon. The CIA is in Iraq and is going to find out more and more about Saddam Hussein and the information it finds won't show that he wasn't all that bad.

Don't confuse evil with powerful.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/923752.asp?0dm=N1CTO&cp1=1

"What we discovered about the Soviet Union after the cold war was that it was every bit as evil as we had thought—indeed more so—but that it was a whole lot less powerful than we had feared. That is what we will probably discover about Saddam Hussein’s Iraq."

[JAR]

Originally posted by Ziggurat
Don't confuse evil with powerful.

Don't worry, I didn't. The Soviet Union is evidence that a government not being as powerful as people think it is won't stop it from committing mass-murder.

[Bjorn]

Four hours now and TV news are already saying 'oops, it was quite old ....'.

24 hour rule, anyone? :p

[Visloch]

Anyone know what this scientist has been doing for the past 12 years?

Apparently not developing WMDs, if this is the only evidence he can provide.

Just more proof that Bush lied to the world.

[ssibal]

It should have been declared by Iraq. At the very least it is a dual-use item.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by ssibal
It should have been declared by Iraq. At the very least it is a dual-use item.

Yeah, it is a dual-use item with schematics for a uranium centrifuge buried with it that it is sitting upon in this photo. :eek:

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/images/06/25/top.centrifuge.iraq2ex.jpg

JK

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Jedi was right.

Apologize, leftists.

Twelve years old, Jedi, and no telling how long it had been out of service before then.

I think you should apologize for your red-herring-du-jour.

Your claims are getting weaker and weaker by the day. Don't you long for the days when they used to unearth barrels of medical waste?

(and the picture looks like a doorknob on top of a blueprint).

[Bjorn]

Am I the only one registering that the criterias defining 'smoking guns' seem to diminish? :confused:

It used to be 'nucular' weapons, but at the moment it's anything that could make a loud bang? :confused:

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tricky

Twelve years old, Jedi, and no telling how long it had been out of service before then.

I think you should apologize for your red-herring-du-jour.

Your claims are getting weaker and weaker by the day. Don't you long for the days when they used to unearth barrels of medical waste?

(and the picture looks like a doorknob on top of a blueprint).

Gosh, Saddam had no WMD program, huh. :rolleyes:

JK

[ImpyTimpy]

You do realise the item was buried in someone's backyard for twelve years don't you?

Originally posted by ssibal
It should have been declared by Iraq. At the very least it is a dual-use item.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
You do realise the item was buried in someone's backyard for twelve years don't you?



Yes I do.

[ceo_esq]

If the scientist is to be believed, the equipment was kept buried all that time on the orders of the ruling regime. To me, that does suggest that Saddam intended to keep his options open about a nuclear program. And while it was dual-use technology, the scientist who hid it (if I understand correctly) said it was destined for military purposes.

The other disturbing thing is that this was buried in a residential backyard. The inspectors all missed it, understandably. The search for illicit weapons-related items is going to be like looking for a needle in a hundred haystacks. :(

[Lothian]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
If the scientist is to be believed, the equipment was kept buried all that time on the orders of the ruling regime. To me, that does suggest that Saddam intended to keep his options open about a nuclear program. And while it was dual-use technology, the scientist who hid it (if I understand correctly) said it was destined for military purposes.

There is no doubt that Saddam had a long term as well as a short term military strategy. All countries do. It may well be true that Saddam had intentions to, at some point, make WMD. I believe that Syria, Iran, North Korea, France and Liechtenstein may also have plans to make WMD at some point in the future. The difference is that we were told that Saddam had them in such a state where finished weapons were deliverable to terrorists and only 45 mins away from being launched. I assume that this find could not have been launched within 45 mins.

The invasion was (officially) because of the immediate threat perceived by the White House and Downing Street. This find does not appear to be part of that immediate threat.

[The Fool]

If they found a Meccano set , JK would claim he was right...... As time goes on I just laugh louder and louder.... Not about the war which is an ongoing tragedy. What I laugh most about is JK's manic urge to (one day) find the holy grail...something he is actually right about!

Lol.....

[Flo]

Originally posted by Lothian
There is no doubt that Saddam had a long term as well as a short term military strategy. All countries do. It may well be true that Saddam had intentions to, at some point, make WMD. I believe that Syria, Iran, North Korea, France and Liechtenstein may also have plans to make WMD at some point in the future. The difference is that we were told that Saddam had them in such a state where finished weapons were deliverable to terrorists and only 45 mins away from being launched. I assume that this find could not have been launched within 45 mins.

The invasion was (officially) because of the immediate threat perceived by the White House and Downing Street. This find does not appear to be part of that immediate threat.

Let's see ... 5 min to find the exact spot, half an hour to unearth the device, 10 minutes to assemble the catapult ... they never lied, we should have joined the coalition :rolleyes:

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Jedi was right.

Apologize, leftists.

JK

No apology from me today and JK is incorrect as usual.

Over 20 years ago Iraq did have a nuclear reactor and there were indications that they may have built it to provide power and to produce bomb-grade materials. However, that reactor was destroyed by the Israel in 1981 (I think that is the year) and it was never rebuilt. Therefore, one can hardly use it as a justification for the recent Gulf War.

My non-Jedi-use-the-Force crystal ball says that these recently rediscovered parts and documents are related to a program that was deactivated when George W. was still partying with his frat bothers.

Edited to add: I will rate this thread five stars.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Gosh, Saddam had no WMD program, huh. :rolleyes:
He probably had had one twelve years ago, but to call this small find evidence of an immediate threat is simply ridiculous. In fact, even if they found every single part of a nuclear reactor buried in gardens across the country, it would not constitute an immediate threat. It takes years to build a plant, and it is almost impossible to do so in secrecy (which is why the Israelis bombed his previous construction). The warhawks are grasping at ever tinier straws.

Uh oh! They might find a merry-go-round that could be used as a centrifuge to make WMDs!:eek:

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Lothian
It may well be true that Saddam had intentions to, at some point, make WMD. I believe that Syria, Iran, North Korea, France and Liechtenstein may also have plans to make WMD at some point in the future. The difference is that we were told that Saddam had them in such a state where finished weapons were deliverable to terrorists and only 45 mins away from being launched.
Syria, North Korea and France already have WMD (I'm not sure what you've heard about Liechtenstein). However, those countries are, for the moment, lawfully entitled to possess them. Iraq, on the other hand, was not entitled to possess them or to maintain any such long-term strategy (to the extent materialized by retention of the means of production).

That's another important difference, in my view.

[Lothian]

Originally posted by ceo_esq

Syria, North Korea and France already have WMD (I'm not sure what you've heard about Liechtenstein). However, those countries are, for the moment, lawfully entitled to possess them. Iraq, on the other hand, was not entitled to possess them or to maintain any such long-term strategy (to the extent materialized by retention of the means of production).

That's another important difference, in my view. There was no specific reason to pick the countries chosen. The point was merely that all countries have long term plans.

Iraq was as you say not allowed to make WMD or retain facilities for making them. However the pre war message was that they had these weapons and they were an immediate threat. If they were not an immediate threat, ie they had facilities that could have been up and running in 3-4 months, inspections could have continued and disarmament / dismantlement of facilities could have occurred without any loss of life. The items found so far do not represent an immediate threat.

[KelvinG]

Heh heh. As each day goes by the pro-war side gets more desperate in trying to find WMD.
I would actually expect more "discoveries" like this latest one since the Bush team realizes it's reputation and credibility are being compromised severely. They are grasping for straws now, and will try and make a story out of every little bit of non-evidence.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Jedi was right.

Apologize, leftists.

JK

Wrong again JK!

The below item was posted in the Washington Post earlier today and it clearly states how wrong you are.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33828-2003Jun25.html

Iraqi Scientist Turns Over Nuclear Plans, Parts
Former Head of Uranium Enrichment Program Had Buried Material in Yard After 1991 Gulf War

...

Despite assertions by Bush administration officials before the war that Iraq was rebuilding a nuclear program, U.S. officials have so far found no evidence that Hussein had reconstituted the advanced nuclear weapons program he developed throughout the 1970s and 1980s. That program, which included the construction of several facilities for enriching uranium, was dismantled in the early 1990s by coalition forces and by inspectors of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog.

...

Let us see you apologize now.

[LTC8K6]

I read that WP story as support for JK's point, and support for our armed removal of Saddam.

We waited way too long, going by that story.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Lothian
If they were not an immediate threat, ie they had facilities that could have been up and running in 3-4 months, inspections could have continued and disarmament / dismantlement of facilities could have occurred without any loss of life.I'll grant you that the centrifuge was not an immediate threat. On the other hand, given that the thing was buried in someone's flowerbed, I don't see how inspections would have brought it to light. Of course, if Saddam had stuck to the disarmament program and declared things like this, the disarmament could also have occurred without any loss of life.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
I'll grant you that the centrifuge was not an immediate threat. On the other hand, given that the thing was buried in someone's flowerbed, I don't see how inspections would have brought it to light. Of course, if Saddam had stuck to the disarmament program and declared things like this, the disarmament could also have occurred without any loss of life.

The point is, it doesn't matter whether the inspections would have brought it to light or not. As soon as Iraq would have tried to build nuclear weapons with it, there would have been plenty of time to do something about it. Iraq never had the capacity to quickly use WMD's.

5500 civilians dead and counting. Never mind the Iraqi soldiers.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


5500 civilians dead and counting. Never mind the Iraqi soldiers.

Do you have a body count for the Saddam regime?

Just curious...

[Jedi Knight]

I am going to inject some affirmative action support for the war hawks.

The centrifuge plans = 20 points extra.

The centrifuge components = 50 points extra.

It has to be done because the communists who rail against President Bush are doing so with discrimination in mind, and it is important to inject balance into the facts.

We have to do it with minority populations in the United States so they aren't oppressed so it must be done with those people who want to defend the United States from evil and dismiss appeasement, a rare breed indeed and a legal-protected minority.

So after all the points are added up, I have 170 points (Max is 100 anyway) in favor of President Bush and the defenders of freedom.

Attacking President Bush and the defenders of freedom is hate, discrimination, and bigotry.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tricky

He probably had had one twelve years ago, but to call this small find evidence of an immediate threat is simply ridiculous. In fact, even if they found every single part of a nuclear reactor buried in gardens across the country, it would not constitute an immediate threat. It takes years to build a plant, and it is almost impossible to do so in secrecy (which is why the Israelis bombed his previous construction). The warhawks are grasping at ever tinier straws.

Uh oh! They might find a merry-go-round that could be used as a centrifuge to make WMDs!:eek:

Oh, so you believe the guy had those parts buried in his garden for 12 years? :eek:

Yeah, right.

The parts were found. It is Saddam's WMD program. Combine that with the WMD trailers and there is more than enough justification for war.

More WMD will also be found as well. Stay tuned, lefties.

JK

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
The point is, it doesn't matter whether the inspections would have brought it to light or not. As soon as Iraq would have tried to build nuclear weapons with it, there would have been plenty of time to do something about it.
I guess so. But why did the Security Council consider it important to outlaw Iraq's possession of items that could be used eventually to build nuclear weapons? I have difficulty imagining the Security Council saying to itself "It doesn't matter if Saddam has these items and we can't find them. Let him have them; there'll be plenty of time for us to do something about it if he ever tries to use them."

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Oh, so you believe the guy had those parts buried in his garden for 12 years? :eek:

Yeah, right.

The parts were found. It is Saddam's WMD program. Combine that with the WMD trailers and there is more than enough justification for war.

More WMD will also be found as well. Stay tuned, lefties.

JK

Good job JK!

I will stay tuned and be sure to note when, where, and if any WMDs are found in Iraq.

By the way, did you notice that the British have essentially disavowed that second dossier they published regarding Iraqi WMDs? Prior to the war, they were totally supportive of it and now they would like everyone to forget they even published it.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Good job JK!

I will stay tuned and be sure to note when, where, and if any WMDs are found in Iraq.

By the way, did you notice that the British have essentially disavowed that second dossier they published regarding Iraqi WMDs? Prior to the war, they were totally supportive of it and now they would like everyone to forget they even published it.

WMD was already found in Iraq.

JK

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


WMD was already found in Iraq.

JK

Wrong again.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030623/ap_on_go_co/congress_iraq_30

...

More than two months after the fall of Baghdad, no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, which has raised questions about the Bush administration's primary justification for invading.

Until recently, Bush and his aides had maintained prohibited weapons would be found. In his radio address Saturday, Bush made no such promise and said instead that documents and suspected weapons sites were looted and burned "in the regime's final days."

[ImpyTimpy]

You're not the Iraqi's information minister brother or twin or something are you? I mean the utter lies you're promoting are amazing.

Not buried in his backyard for 12 years? The parts were found? WMD trailers?????

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html

The parts, with accompanying plans, were unearthed by Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them under a rose bush in his garden 12 years ago under orders from Qusay Hussein and Saddam Hussein's then son-in-law, Hussein Kamel.

They were buried, they weren't found - the scientist unearthed them and there is no WMD trailers as Crossbow already pointed out.

Iraqi Information Minister Double (IIMD), I salute you!!

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Oh, so you believe the guy had those parts buried in his garden for 12 years? :eek:

Yeah, right.

The parts were found. It is Saddam's WMD program. Combine that with the WMD trailers and there is more than enough justification for war.

More WMD will also be found as well. Stay tuned, lefties.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
You're not the Iraqi's information minister brother or twin or something are you? I mean the utter lies you're promoting are amazing.

Not buried in his backyard for 12 years? The parts were found? WMD trailers?????

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html


They were buried, they weren't found - the scientist unearthed them and there is no WMD trailers as Crossbow already pointed out.

Iraqi Information Minister Double (IIMD), I salute you!!



Soon, very soon we are going to have more WMD. So keep choking on your commie manifesto and stay tuned.

JK

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Soon, very soon we are going to have more WMD. So keep choking on your commie manifesto and stay tuned.

JK I take it you mean we will have 'some' WMD. I'll stay tuned. :p

[ImpyTimpy]

IIMD (Iraqi Information Minister Double for those who do not know the term), it appears that we are yet to find any WMD's, so saying we will have more doesn't make sense... But that's your job as IIMD - to make up funny anecdotes.

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Soon, very soon we are going to have more WMD. So keep choking on your commie manifesto and stay tuned.

JK

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Soon, very soon we are going to have more WMD. So keep choking on your commie manifesto and stay tuned.

More than zero? I don't doubt it. It would be almost impossible to destroy every last vestige of a WMD program that existed less than ten years ago (although it appears they tried). What I am doubting is that they will find anything that was so threatening that we had to stop Saddam immediately or he would loose it on the world.

It is sad and funny to see the war hawks sputter impotently as their claims become less credible every day. Sorry, Jedi. You have a better chance of proving that only planets and stars have gravity than you have of proving that Iraq was the threat that Dubya claimed.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Soon, very soon we are going to have more WMD. So keep choking on your commie manifesto and stay tuned.

JK
What do you expect to find? More Weather balloon trailers?

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6600704%255E401,00.html


A British scientist and biological weapons expert, who examined the trailers in Iraq, told the Observer: "They are not mobile germ warfare laboratories.
"You could not use them for making biological weapons. They do not even look like them. They are exactly what the Iraqis said they were - facilities for the production of hydrogen gas to fill balloons."


or maybe more 12 year old parts dug up from another rose garden?

I really hope they do find something, If they don't you are going to rust your keyboard with all the tantrum tears....lol.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool
I really hope they do find something, If they don't you are going to rust your keyboard with all the tantrum tears....lol.

Fool, I am laughing at the leftist ignorance that thinks there is no WMD. You don't fall into that category, do you? :eek:

JK