Racists/Holocaust deniers move to Montana

[Questioninggeller]

Montana dealing with new influx of white supremacists
News4
Friday, November 17th, 2006

KALISPELL, MT. -- An alarming but familiar trend is being seen in the Inland Northwest as the Montana Human Rights Network (http://www.mhrn.org/) says that state is seeing a new influx of white supremacists.
...
Over the past several years the network has noticed supremacists lead massive literature drops, run for state and local offices and are now attending local schools. The state noticed a similar trend in the early 1980s and as a result, formed the Montana Human Rights Network and for a while the group was declaring victory until recently.

Travis McAdam has kept a close eye on who's moving to the state and says the group, which was formed in the early 1980s because of a surge in white supremacist activity recently believed its mission, was met.
...
McAdam says that was the first sign of a familiar trend and can now point to several white supremacy leaders currently recruiting in Montana. Known white supremacist Kevin McGuire (http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/White_Supremacy/polit_activity.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News) recently used his candidacy for school board in Bozeman to spread his message. Last December the American Nazi Party (http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_am_nazi.asp) – which on its website says is 'inspired by Hitler' and uses what it calls the 'sacred' swastika as its symbol – announced it was creating a Montana chapter and now has offices in Butte, Billings and Libby.
...
Recently ABC’s Primetime featured Lamb and Lynx Gaede, 14-year old twin girls who make up the singing group Prussian Blue (http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1). The two, since birth, have been fed white nationalist beliefs, and now share them in their music. The twins, who look like the girls next door and are often compared to Mary-Kate and Ashley Olson – have become the face and voice of the National Alliance, a white nationalist organization. Their lyrics are seen by many as a message of hate with some songs praising Adolf Hitler...
...
During the interview the girls’ mom told ABC they would be moving from Bakersfield, California because the city wasn't white enough.

Bill Matteer and his wife Rebecca happened to be watching the segment from their Kalispell home, shocked to hear the girls' statements. More shocked though, when he realized why the girls, and their mother, looked so familiar.

"I was like ‘Yeah … that's my neighbor, that's the lady," Matteer said.
...
After researching the Gaedes’ beliefs, after seeing the girls dance around a swastika in the documentary "Louis and the Nazis" the couple began the 'No Hate Here' campaign. The Matteers say they got the support of dozens of neighbors who displayed the 'No Hate Here' poster in their windows.
...
The Matteers, who say their campaign was executed in the same way white nationalists hand out their literature and pamphlets, never expected the backlash but within days, their private information - their address and their telephone number – was smeared on white supremacist websites and they received threatening phone calls, letters and death threats.

“Parties on both sides have received what I consider death threats," Kalispell Police Chief Frank Garner says.
...
McAdam says when communities try to ignore the white supremacists living nearby, it can lead to more supremacists moving in. In fact, McAdam says the Gaedes are the latest in a string of white nationalists to move to Montana and they're using music, one of the most popular tools to recruit, and its aimed at a young demographic. The Matteers say the best, and most convenient audience is the girls' classmates.
...
Lamb and Lynx Gaede and their mother April were contacted for an interview for this story but April would only consent to it if we agreed to her requests. Those requests were not granted.

In response, April Gaede posted our entire e-mail exchange on at least three different white supremacist websites which in turn ignited hundreds of responses.

Source: KXLY.com, November 17th, 2006 (http://www.kxly.com/news/index.php?sect_rank=1&section_id=559&story_id=6348)

This is a link to the Primetime live interview with Prussian Blue (http://mfile.akamai.com/16688/wmv/abcondemand.download.akamai.com/16688/prem/051020ptl_hatemusic.wmv) mentioned above. (Band name related to Holocaust deniers (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.002))

This is a link to the BBC documentary that includes Prussian Blue and Tom Metzger (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1009039898277591286&q=louis+and+the+nazis&hl=en) (google video), which is by Louis Theroux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Theroux).

This all ties into the Institute for Historical Review (http://www.adl.org/Learn/ext_us/historical_review.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=ihr) (the singing duo performs at IHR rallies) and I figured some people in the conspiracy forum might be interested in Holocaust conspiracy news.

[Oliver]

Do we now post Holocaust-News in here?
Or is it a conspiracy? :confused:

[Questioninggeller]

Do we now post Holocaust-News in here?
Or is it a conspiracy? :confused:

From an interview with the girls:

Please tell me the significance of the name Prussian Blue.

Part of our heritage is Prussian German. Also our eyes are blue, and Prussian Blue is just a really pretty color. There is also the discussion of the lack of "Prussian Blue" coloring (Zyklon B residue) in the so-called gas chambers in the concentration camps. We think it might make people question some of the inaccuracies of the "Holocaust" myth.

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/printer.php?id=4330

Conspiracy theories (note the phrase "Question inaccuracies," a classic example of pseudo-skepticism) surrounding the Holocaust have spawned many threads in the JREF forums in the past.

[Oliver]

And why do you care?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

And why do you care?

How much more likely is a Prussian Blue fan to strap a bomb to his chest and run into a synagogue than say a Britney Spears fan?

There's plenty of reason for citizens (especially if they're in Montana) to be concerned about this stuff.

[Oliver]

How much more likely is a Prussian Blue fan to strap a bomb to his chest and run into a synagogue than say a Britney Spears fan?

There's plenty of reason for citizens (especially if they're in Montana) to be concerned about this stuff.

I don´t know why this belongs in here. Somehow
it has something to do with some people who have
something to do with holocaust-denier. But maybe
i miss the point why it´s on topic at JREF/CT.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Probably because of the connection between these people and faked Holocaust theories, 9-11 theories and the fact that thier entire worldview is one giant conspiracy theory about jews & blacks holding the white man down.

[Oliver]

Probably because of the connection between these people and faked Holocaust theories, 9-11 theories and the fact that thier entire worldview is one giant conspiracy theory about holding the white man down.

Well, yesterday i read about new attemps to stop the
neo-fascistic party here in germany. Shall i post these
news, too?

I mean somehow it has something to do with the Holocaust
and the deniers... i guess. :boggled:

[Questioninggeller]

Well, yesterday i read about new attemps to stop the
neo-fascistic party here in germany. Shall i post these
news, too?

You could post it in the political/current events section.


I mean somehow it has something to do with the Holocaust
and the deniers... i guess. :boggled:

Pseudohistory and conspiracy theories are inherently linked. As this is a skeptical forum, some skeptics have interest in being skeptical about those claims.

If you're truly interested in seeing a connection to skeptical analysis and Holocaust deniers you can start with Michael Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things." (Its in part four under "pseudohistory.")

Throughout my time on the JREF forums there has been several skeptics interested in the goingson of Holocaust deniers, and their arguments/beliefs. As I posted above, "I figured some people in the conspiracy forum might be interested in Holocaust conspiracy news."

If you're not interested in this subject why make one comment in this thread, let alone 4 comments? If you don't care about this thread then don't comment in it.

[Oliver]

You could post it in the political/current events section.



Pseudohistory and conspiracy theories are inherently linked. As this is a skeptical forum, some skeptics have interest in being skeptical about those claims.

If you're truly interested in seeing a connection to skeptical analysis and Holocaust deniers you can start with Michael Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things." (Its in part four under "pseudohistory.")

Throughout my time on the JREF forums there has been several skeptics interested in the goingson of Holocaust deniers, and their arguments/beliefs. As I posted above, "I figured some people in the conspiracy forum might be interested in Holocaust conspiracy news."

If you're not interested in this subject why make one comment in this thread, let alone 4 comments? If you don't care about this thread then don't comment in it.

I make comments because the thread is about an announcement,
not about some new aspects about the deniers or new theories.

Also i have personal experiences with hufschmid because i talked
to him about his holohoax and he admitted that he did not much
research at all about "WW2" - whatever WW2 had to do with the
holocaust. So there is no deep psychological thing about it beside
breeding, education and personal hate and lack of self-confidence.

Maybe i overreacted because my personal experiences with these
people and their lies.

[Questioninggeller]

I make comments because the thread is about an announcement, not about some new aspects about the deniers or new theories.

It is news for some. A "new aspect" would be a mother packaging Holocaust denial themes in the songs of her 12 year old girls with the intention that her message reaches the public as she uses her daughters as a propaganda tool. Another "new aspect" would be the approach that Montana residents have dealt with it and countered the attacks.

Moreover, the links have video with the arguments and its what I expected people to comment on. Plus some might find this news of interest, such as the people in the Northwest of the United States.

So there is no deep psychological thing about it beside breeding, education and personal hate and lack of self-confidence.


Well, hate is a "deep psychological thing" because it is a belief. Again, a belief based on false premises that might be of interest to the skeptical community.

[Oliver]

Yeah - to the skeptical community at Politics, Current Events, (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
and Social Issues (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=6).

I don´t know why you don´t have any laws against this BS.
We do and it makes sense to me because it helps to avoid
spreading lies about things that would make many, many
people very angry over here.

[Questioninggeller]

Yeah - to the skeptical community at Politics, Current Events, (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
and Social Issues (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=6).

Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory. "Skeptical community" as in the JREF forum. I wouldn't post this at a car repair forum.


I don´t know why you don´t have any laws against this BS.
We do and it makes sense to me because it helps to avoid
spreading lies about things that would make many, many
people very angry over here.

Many people do not see limiting "offensive things" as a way to make them go away. It hasn't worked in Germany as of October 21, 2006. (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-10-21T215448Z_01_L21747299_RTRUKOC_0_US-GERMANY-NEONAZIS.xml&src=rss) Lies will be spread no matter what laws are put in place. The best way to deal with them is to allow, and show the claims for what they are.

[Oliver]

Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory. "Skeptical community" as in the JREF forum. I wouldn't post this at a car repair forum.

The header of your message implied some non-interesting
news about 2 teenagers with fascistic background. Nothing
about new claims or claims at all about holohoax-theories.

That was my point - but as i said, maybe i overreacted
because the irrelevant looking intention and title of the
thread.

Many people do not see limiting "offensive things" as a way to make them go away. It hasn't worked in Germany as of October 21, 2006. (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-10-21T215448Z_01_L21747299_RTRUKOC_0_US-GERMANY-NEONAZIS.xml&src=rss) Lies will be spread no matter what laws are put in place. The best way to deal with them is to allow, and show the claims for what they are.

Why didn´t what work? As long the neonazi parties are
legal parties, they have the legal right to protest after
they officially registered their protest.

And i think it does work here - that´s why there are no
such discussions availabe on (at least public) german
servers. I don´t even know why so many americans talk
about this issue. What do they teach over there about
it???

[slingblade]

The header of your message implied some non-interesting
news about 2 teenagers with fascistic background. Nothing
about new claims or claims at all about holohoax-theories.

That was my point - but as i said, maybe i overreacted
because the irrelevant looking intention and title of the
thread.

There are groups in the U.S. which maintain that the Holocaust never happened (just like those who maintain no plane hit the Pentagon), that it was all a conspiracy put forth by "Evil Joos" (just as some think 9/11 was), and that the entire event was staged (just like 9/11).

American domestic terrorists like places such as Montana and Idaho, because they are sparsely populated, mountainous, and heavily wooded: the perfect place to hide illicit activities. American domestic terrorists also tend to be racist, and Montana is heavily Native American. "White Supremacy" and "Indian Reservation" are a potentially volatile mix.

It's not surprising that some of us like to keep an eye on what these groups do, and where, and not surprising someone would post this article here in the CT subforum.


Why didn´t what work? As long the neonazi parties are
legal parties, they have the legal right to protest after
they officially registered their protest.

I know very little about German laws, but it seems odd to me that you are free to have Neonazi "parties," but aren't allowed by law to discuss certain topics.

And i think it does work here - that´s why there are no
such discussions availabe on (at least public) german
servers. I don´t even know why so many americans talk
about this issue. What do they teach over there about
it???

We teach what happened during World War 2, including the Holocaust. In my local schools, in literature classes, students in 8th grade read "The Diary of Anne Frank," and in 11th grade they read Elie Wiesel's "Night." I'm not certain what specifically is taught in history classes, but teachers who attempt to deny the holocaust are usually not looked on favorably.

My stepson had a history teacher who told the class the Holocaust never happened. I filed a complaint against that teacher with the school and the county school board. He didn't teach there much longer, as I recall, but it wasn't because of my complaint, alone. Mine was just one of many, gathered over years.

Maybe it's just the way I'm reading this, but you seem a bit defensive, Oliver.
The way you asked what we teach about it, with three question marks, makes me ask: what do you think we should be teaching about it, and what do you teach about it, over there?

[Oliver]

There are groups in the U.S. which maintain that the Holocaust never happened (just like those who maintain no plane hit the Pentagon), that it was all a conspiracy put forth by "Evil Joos" (just as some think 9/11 was), and that the entire event was staged (just like 9/11).

American domestic terrorists like places such as Montana and Idaho, because they are sparsely populated, mountainous, and heavily wooded: the perfect place to hide illicit activities. American domestic terrorists also tend to be racist, and Montana is heavily Native American. "White Supremacy" and "Indian Reservation" are a potentially volatile mix.

It's not surprising that some of us like to keep an eye on what these groups do, and where, and not surprising someone would post this article here in the CT subforum.

I didn´t know about the local occurrences in Montana and
Idaho - so this seems to be the reason why i didn´t under-
stand the thread.

To me it sounds scary to hear all these discussions about
the holocaust because there seems to be a lot of confusions
about it.

I know very little about German laws, but it seems odd to me that you are free to have Neonazi "parties," but aren't allowed by law to discuss certain topics.

Well, the Neo-Nazi parties are accepted, but they are
not allowed to publish hate-propaganda like anti-semetic
stuff. So we don´t forbid their free minds - but we forbid
to spread lies. That´s why these parties are tolerated.

We teach what happened during World War 2, including the Holocaust. In my local schools, in literature classes, students in 8th grade read "The Diary of Anne Frank," and in 11th grade they read Elie Wiesel's "Night." I'm not certain what specifically is taught in history classes, but teachers who attempt to deny the holocaust are usually not looked on favorably.

My stepson had a history teacher who told the class the Holocaust never happened. I filed a complaint against that teacher with the school and the county school board. He didn't teach there much longer, as I recall, but it wasn't because of my complaint, alone. Mine was just one of many, gathered over years.

Maybe it's just the way I'm reading this, but you seem a bit defensive, Oliver.
The way you asked what we teach about it, with three question marks, makes me ask: what do you think we should be teaching about it, and what do you teach about it, over there?

Well, to sum it up - we learn enough about the Holocaust
and this time to understand what happend and to feel
ashamed about this period of our history. Also i know from
my grandparents that they also saw what happend to
jewish people - that´s why i personally hate if someone
starts to talk about Holohoaxes.

The problem i see over there in the states is, that every-
body is free to invent or spread every stupid idea that
comes to their minds. I also guess that all the conspiracy
theories are based on this kind of free speech.

Personally i feel even more free to think and speak what
i want because i know when i cross a moral border over
here. And i know that any accusations might end in social
delimitation from people around me.

That´s why i wouldn´t start to blame the government
without any good and hard evidence because we also
learn when the government did ugly things.

May i ask how much you learn about negativ things about
your government? As far i learned and see it, the teaching
is very patriotic instead realistic and rational.

[slingblade]

I didn´t know about the local occurrences in Montana and
Idaho - so this seems to be the reason why i didn´t under-
stand the thread.

I can't recall any specific incidents in those areas of late, but there was Ruby Ridge in 1992, and I vaguely remember something about some ancient White Supremacist leader dying in the last few years....some kind of problem about his "compound," or something.

Anybody, didn't Mark Furman, the cop from the O.J. Simpson trial, move to Idaho and join a supposed WS group there?

To me it sounds scary to hear all these discussions about
the holocaust because there seems to be a lot of confusions
about it.

Maybe, but one can't clear those up by not talking about them.


Well, the Neo-Nazi parties are accepted, but they are
not allowed to publish hate-propaganda like anti-semetic
stuff. So we don´t forbid their free minds - but we forbid
to spread lies. That´s why these parties are tolerated.

Ah, but one man's truth is sometimes another man's lie. Sometimes those lines are obvious, but sometimes they aren't. What would such a law do to the other discussions on JREF?

Laws don't prevent lies from being spread--they just drive the liars underground, and make the lies harder to debunk.

Well, to sum it up - we learn enough about the Holocaust
and this time to understand what happend and to feel
ashamed about this period of our history. Also i know from
my grandparents that they also saw what happend to
jewish people - that´s why i personally hate if someone
starts to talk about Holohoaxes.

If you don't talk about them, you can't debunk them, and they surely don't debunk themselves. We are also taught to feel a sense of shame about all genocide, because it's a shameful thing, yes?

In the literature classes I taught, one of the questions we asked the class before reading Anne Frank was "Is it possible for large numbers of people to believe a lie?" We ask it again after the unit is finished. Most of the students who answered "no" the first time will answer "yes" the second time. It is important for people to understand that, so they can understand the Holocaust specifically, but also the world in general. Lots of people can believe a lie, and when they do, bad things happen.

The problem i see over there in the states is, that every-
body is free to invent or spread every stupid idea that
comes to their minds. I also guess that all the conspiracy
theories are based on this kind of free speech.

Why, yes they are. And my opportunity to debunk them is also based on it.

Personally i feel even more free to think and speak what
i want because i know when i cross a moral border over
here. And i know that any accusations might end in social
delimitation from people around me.

The same thing happens over here. I am legally free to be an atheist. But if I want to keep my job or my social standing, I had better be cautious to whom I reveal this. Free speech isn't absolute.

That´s why i wouldn´t start to blame the government
without any good and hard evidence because we also
learn when the government did ugly things.

May i ask how much you learn about negativ things about
your government? As far i learned and see it, the teaching
is very patriotic instead realistic and rational.

The first mistake would be to think that the U.S. has a national curriculum. We don't. The states set their own curriculums, and while they tend to be very similar, they are not mandated by the U.S. government.

The second mistake would be to think that schools here are homogeneous. They are not. We have religious and secular schools, private and public, and homeschooling. Each is similar in some ways, and different in others.

The third mistake would be to think that teachers are not autonomous. To a certain extent, they are. But this autonomy is capricious, often based on whim, local culture, or local social norms. In some schools, it would not be unusual to hear teachers speak about religion, for instance, in ways that would not be tolerated in other parts of the country. Some teachers dislike the president and/or his policies, and say so in class. Some support him staunchly. Tolerance for such remarks varies from place to place, and from school to school.

In general, we are taught that our government is made up of fallible people, and that's why we have a system of checks and balances. We are taught about our rights, but are also taught about our responsibilities. We are taught about government scandals, past and present.

Some teachers may teach blind patriotism, but that would not be the norm.

[Oliver]

I can't recall any specific incidents in those areas of late, but there was Ruby Ridge in 1998, and I vaguely remember something about some ancient White Supremacist leader dying in the last few years....some kind of problem about his "compound," or something.

Anybody, didn't Mark Furman, the cop from the O.J. Simpson trial, move to Idaho and join a supposed WS group there?

I can´t answer because i´m not very familiar with
local occurrences over there...

Maybe, but one can't clear those up by not talking about them.

We are talking about it open and to a large extent in
school. There is no need for any logic person to retract
what you learn in open discussion during your time in school.
We know the facts and we simply don´t allow to spread lies
about our history.

I know that some people try it nevertheless - but they
will fail over here.

Ah, but one man's truth is sometimes another man's lie. Sometimes those lines are obvious, but sometimes they aren't. What would such a law do to the other discussions on JREF?

I´m against any censorship - that´s why i don´t understand
the american problem with words like the f-word or the s-word.
If i feel this way or if i´m angry, i simply use the f*ck word
because it emphasizes what i want to say.

Maybe you want to make some examples because i can
not explain it in general.

Laws don't prevent lies from being spread--they just drive the liars underground, and make the lies harder to debunk.

This is not what my experiences are. There are these types
of people but their amount is very, very small compared to
groups like the truth movement or the holohoax-people. This
is my impression about the american holohoax-movement.

If you don't talk about them, you can't debunk them, and they surely don't debunk themselves. We are also taught to feel a sense of shame about all genocide, because it's a shameful thing, yes?

We forbid this kind of lies - so you don´t find any pro-holohoax
info in the internet on german sites. This way it shows that the
holohoax-idea is not very popular. We don´t have 1.000.000
sites about inside jobs. That´s my point.

In the literature classes I taught, one of the questions we asked the class before reading Anne Frank was "Is it possible for large numbers of people to believe a lie?" We ask it again after the unit is finished. Most of the students who answered "no" the first time will answer "yes" the second time. It is important for people to understand that, so they can understand the Holocaust specifically, but also the world in general. Lots of people can believe a a lie, and when they do, bad things happen.

That´s why there are laws against the holocaust-lies. It
does not help to build a better world if we spread lies.

Why, yes they are. And my opportunity to debunk them is also based on it.

Why wasting time at all to debunk any stupid idea? I mean
i live in a country that mostly is based on moral standards
since the world war. This way we have unwritten laws about
our behaviors and therefore people are very careful before
they start things like "inside jobs" and so on...

The same thing happens over here. I am legally free to be an atheist. But if I want to keep my job or my social standing, I had better be cautious to whom I reveal this. Free speech isn't absolute.

I see this, too - but it does not include the anonymity
of the internet. People here also feel more free within
the internet but there are still invisible borders you
shouldn´t cross until you know what you say.

The first mistake would be to think that the U.S. has a national curriculum. We don't. The states set their own curriculums, and while they tend to be very similar, they are not mandated by the U.S. government.

The same goes to the german curriculum. We also have
slightly different curriculums over here.

The second mistake would be to think that schools here are homogeneous. They are not. We have religious and secular schools, private and public, and homeschooling. Each is similar in some ways, and different in others.

Same goes here but the "Education minister" gives a
general plan about the things that are important - even
if there are differences concerning the different states.

The third mistake would be to think that teachers are not autonomous. To a certain extent, they are. But this autonomy is capricious, often based on whim, local culture, or local social norms. In some schools, it would not be unusual to hear teachers speak about religion, for instance, in ways that would not be tolerated in other parts of the country. Some teachers dislike the president and/or his policies, and say so in class. Some support him staunchly. Tolerance for such remarks varies from place to place, and from school to school.

Well, we have a strict plan over here. Religion is part
of instructing religion. It´s not very honorable over
here if a history teacher tries to place religious things
into historical issues beside the religious things involved.

In general, we are taught that our government is made up of fallible people, and that's why we have a system of checks and balances. We are taught about our rights, but are also taught about our responsibilities. We are taught about government scandals, past and present.

Some teachers may teach blind patriotism, but that would not be the norm.

This might be a misinterpreting of my experiences about
american teaching. To me it looked more patriotic than rational.

[slingblade]

We forbid this kind of lies - so you don´t find any pro-holohoax
info in the internet on german sites. This way it shows that the
holohoax-idea is not very popular. We don´t have 1.000.000
sites about inside jobs. That´s my point.

No, that doesn't follow at all. If it's forbidden, there's no way to tell how popular it is--it's forbidden. It could be very popular, but how would you know?

"We forbid people to talk about kittens, so no one talks about kittens. So we know kittens aren't popular, because no one talks about them." Huh?


That´s why there are laws against the holocaust-lies. It
does not help to build a better world if we spread lies.

You can't prove something is untrue if you never hear it spoken or see it written. Oliver, that's an important step in breeding the conspiracy theory!

"They won't let us talk about it....but what if there's something to it? What if it's true, but THEY don't want us to know it? What are they afraid of? If it's not true, why can't we talk about it? Why would they be afraid of a lie...unless it's not a lie! What are they hiding from us? It's a conspiracy!"

See?

Why wasting time at all to debunk any stupid idea?

Why are you posting here at JREF, then? I don't understand. That's what Mr. Randi's site does--it debunks stupid ideas. Aren't you just wasting time here?

Besides, who gets to decide which ideas are too stupid to talk about? Freedom of speech doesn't protect acceptable speech, because acceptable speech needs no protection--it's already acceptable. It is the unacceptable, and your right to voice it, which needs protecting.

I mean
i live in a country that mostly is based on moral standards
since the world war.

Since long before that, I would imagine. Most Americans would also say the U.S. has always been based on moral standards, and still is. But as people change over time, so does their morality--or at least, it should. It used to be moral to hold slaves or to beat your wife. These things are now considered neither moral nor legal in the U.S., by most persons. It used to be immoral, and in some places illegal, for a business to be open on Sunday morning. Not anymore.

This way we have unwritten laws about
our behaviors and therefore people are very careful before
they start things like "inside jobs" and so on...

All societies have these unwritten laws. As to being very careful about starting discussions on "inside jobs," we have laws that can address such things, should it become necessary. Many Americans see limiting a person's speech, except in exceptional cases, as wrong. Immoral, if you will.

I see this, too - but it does not include the anonymity
of the internet. People here also feel more free within
the internet but there are still invisible borders you
shouldn´t cross until you know what you say.

Again, that's true of any social exchange. But it's interesting that you think it's the Internet that allows people to feel more free to say whatever they want to. Maybe you feel more free, but I am used to saying what I want. I grew up in a country that lets me say just about anything, with only certain limits. This is not new to me. The Internet provides me with a little less social discretion, but not a lot less. If I violate too many social norms, I'm going to get scolded at best, and face a lawsuit at worst, but I'll pay a price.

So, how many topics have you discussed freely here at JREF that you wouldn't have been allowed to discuss on a German-based forum? And you don't value that freedom? I know I do.

This might be a misinterpreting of my experiences about
american teaching. To me it looked more patriotic than rational.

There's surely an element of patriotism in education, yes. Many Americans have a sense of national pride, and a general feeling of loyalty to the U.S. But we don't, as a rule, teach our students that the government is always right, or always to be obeyed. The government is made of people, and people make mistakes. Some laws are wrong, and need changing or repeal to make it right.

The U.S. was founded through disobedience to a government, through rebellion. Many of us don't tend to hold much with blind patriotism, and it's because we know our government is fallible; that all governments are fallible.

JREF is devoted to logical, critical thought and reasoning. How can you learn to think critically if you don't have a free exchange of ideas, and even of truth and of lies? How can you learn what a lie is, if you never get exposed to one, and never learn how to counter the lie with the truth?

Besides, Oliver, laws don't prevent. Laws only provide a mechanism for punishment. Laws against lying don't make people speak only the truth.

[jhunter1163]

I grew up in that area, and I can assure you that white supremacy there isn't a new thing, at all. My father was, unfortunately, the most bigoted man I ever knew. Everything was n***** this and s*** (crude slang term for Hispanic) that, and those groups were responsible for most of the evils in the world, in his eyes.

I'm glad that I was smart enough not to absorb that stuff.

[Oliver]

Aaargh, i was on my way into my bed when i saw
that you replied... :D

No, that doesn't follow at all. If it's forbidden, there's no way to tell how popular it is--it's forbidden. It could be very popular, but how would you know?

"We forbid people to talk about kittens, so no one talks about kittens. So we know kittens aren't popular, because no one talks about them." Huh?

Well, that´s why we have an open discussion about it in
school - you can ask whatever you want to clear this up.
You also are free to disagree with what is said.

The difference to america is that you´re not allowed to spread
lies like "the whole holocaust is a lie"-bullcrap. I know that this
is not very popular because i see their popularity whenever
there are elections. ;)

You can't prove something is untrue if you never hear it spoken or see it written. Oliver, that's an important step in breeding the conspiracy theory!

I know this. That´s why we are teached in open discussions
in school. So we DID talk about it.

"They won't let us talk about it....but what if there's something to it? What if it's true, but THEY don't want us to know it? What are they afraid of? If it's not true, why can't we talk about it? Why would they be afraid of a lie...unless it's not a lie! What are they hiding from us? It's a conspiracy!"
See?

You are free to do your research but people will segregate
you if you start to spread lies or if you make accusations
without proofs. It´s more a moral thing than a legal thing.

Why are you posting here at JREF, then? I don't understand. That's what Mr. Randi's site does--it debunks stupid ideas. Aren't you just wasting time here?

I´m posting here because i like the people in here, i learn
to skill my english, there are nice people in here, they have
a lot of humor and i learn something new here and there. It
has nothing to to with the american way of free speech to
be here. :) The people in here are fair and mostly honest.

Besides, who gets to decide which ideas are too stupid to talk about? Freedom of speech doesn't protect acceptable speech, because acceptable speech needs no protection--it's already acceptable. It is the unacceptable, and your right to voice it, which needs protecting.

Well, we also could discuss that the sky is not blue because
some Killtowns start to say that the sky is purple. But in my
opinion it´s a waste of time to discuss with idiots. The american
way of free speech means to discuss these stupid issues never-
theless instead using the wasted time for more importand issues.

Since long before that, I would imagine. Most Americans would also say the U.S. has always been based on moral standards, and still is. But as people change over time, so does their morality--or at least, it should. It used to be moral to hold slaves or to beat your wife. These things are now considered neither moral nor legal in the U.S., by most persons. It used to be immoral, and in some places illegal, for a business to be open on Sunday morning. Not anymore.

Well - let´s see what place the iraq-wars will take in
history-books. Maybe moral standarts will change if you
see that the whole war was a lie in my neutral point of
view (non-islamic/non-american View).

All societies have these unwritten laws. As to being very careful about starting discussions on "inside jobs," we have laws that can address such things, should it become necessary. Many Americans see limiting a person's speech, except in exceptional cases, as wrong. Immoral, if you will.

I also think it´s wrong to forbid any idea. But if someone
is simply wrong, no one should support this stupid ideas.
If someone here talks s*it, we simply say: "Shut up, you
idiot!" instead "let´s talk about it". :D

Again, that's true of any social exchange. But it's interesting that you think it's the Internet that allows people to feel more free to say whatever they want to. Maybe you feel more free, but I am used to saying what I want. I grew up in a country that lets me say just about anything, with only certain limits. This is not new to me. The Internet provides me with a little less social discretion, but not a lot less. If I violate too many social norms, I'm going to get scolded at best, and face a lawsuit at worst, but I'll pay a price.

This is how it works here, too. With the difference that
i´m also allowed to say. *******, *******, *****, and
**********... :D We have no problem with profanity if
someone deserves it. :D

So, how many topics have you discussed freely here at JREF that you wouldn't have been allowed to discuss on a German-based forum? And you don't value that freedom? I know I do.

I can speak in here as free as in german boards - beside
the profanity or naked issue. I guess europeans are more
openminded about that.

There's surely an element of patriotism in education, yes. Many Americans have a sense of national pride, and a general feeling of loyalty to the U.S. But we don't, as a rule, teach our students that the government is always right, or always to be obeyed. The government is made of people, and people make mistakes. Some laws are wrong, and need changing or repeal to make it right.

Mhmm, but how do you explain all the mistrust against
the government. I mean you hear the wildest things about
these "murderers" on american sites. What do you think
is the source for such accusations?

The U.S. was founded through disobedience to a government, through rebellion. Many of us don't tend to hold much with blind patriotism, and it's because we know our government is fallible; that all governments are fallible.

I know this, too. And i know it even more than you because
we have six times more parties over here than you. So every
political issue will be discussed from several sides instead from
two parties.

JREF is devoted to logical, critical thought and reasoning. How can you learn to think critically if you don't have a free exchange of ideas, and even of truth and of lies? How can you learn what a lie is, if you never get exposed to one, and never learn how to counter the lie with the truth?

You might take a look into the truthmovement and all
their million of different ideas and theories. I guess it´s
an example about how confused people are over there.
We don´t have this problem and i don´t say that we
have a better system - but it seems to me that it works
better over here.

Besides, Oliver, laws don't prevent. Laws only provide a mechanism for punishment. Laws against lying don't make people speak only the truth.

I see it this way: A law against murderer avoids many
murderers.

Same goes to lies: If you know that it´s forbidden to spread
the holohoax story, you don´t take your bullhorn and scream
this BS at the white house. :p

But now i will go sleep - i spend the whole night on this issue. :)

Cheers,
Oliver

[Legalduck]

Recently ABC’s Primetime featured Lamb and Lynx Gaede, 14-year old twin girls who make up the singing group Prussian Blue. The two, since birth, have been fed white nationalist beliefs, and now share them in their music.

About a year ago, a radio station in Hartford, CT (WCCC) played a few clips of Prussian Blue. Some of the worst stuff I have ever heard, and I'm not taking about the lyrics. The girls have extremely weak voices. These two would booed off stage at a fifth grade talent show. There is little danger that they will lure anyone to the neonazi movement:D

[Dave1001]

I grew up in that area, and I can assure you that white supremacy there isn't a new thing, at all. My father was, unfortunately, the most bigoted man I ever knew. Everything was n***** this and s*** (crude slang term for Hispanic) that, and those groups were responsible for most of the evils in the world, in his eyes.

I'm glad that I was smart enough not to absorb that stuff.

In all seriousness, kudos to you.

[Oliver]

Did someone ever heard something fascistic
that sounded harmonic? I guess the Prussian Blue(s)
seems to be one of the better ones but i have to
admit that i never listened to their [rule8].

[Questioninggeller]

You are free to do your research but people will segregate you if you start to spread lies or if you make accusations without proofs. It´s more a moral thing than a legal thing.

Holocaust denial works in the same fashion here. To deny something that clearly happened is a good way to isolate one from the mainstream.

I also think it´s wrong to forbid any idea. But if someone is simply wrong, no one should support this stupid ideas.

Seems like a contradiction when you said above (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2126801&postcount=12):

I don´t know why you don´t have any laws against this BS.
We do and it makes sense to me because it helps to avoid spreading lies about things that would make many, many people very angry over here.

This is how it works here, too. With the difference that i´m also allowed to say. *******, *******, *****, and
**********... We have no problem with profanity if someone deserves it. I can speak in here as free as in german boards - beside the profanity or naked issue. I guess europeans are more openminded about that.

This board used to allow profanity, but has changed over the years for various reasons. I think the oft-cited is that the JREF wants to invite as many people from the public as possible and doesn't want to turn off people with a forum laced with profane members.


Publishing incorrect material can be illegal if it purposely encourages people to violate the law. For example, Irwin Schiff was handed an injunction against his book, "The Federal Mafia." (http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/August/04_tax_551.htm) This doesn't extend to other sellers of the book, but affects Schiff's personal efforts to knowingly mislead people on tax schemes.

[StoneWT]

It is best to ignore this rubbish. They thrive on the notion that they are facing an onslaught of non-white and traitorous whites. Placing signs in windows will merely feed their persecution complex. As long as they aren't advocating violence, let them sit in their house and go about their business in town. Don't give them any special attention.

It would behoove everyone to distinguish between supremacists of whatever stripe and separatists. Supremacists are the jokers advocating violence and unequal protection under the law. Separatists merely want to live around their own 'kind' as they see it (religious, racial, ethnic).

[delphi_ote]

Holocaust denial = conspiracy theory

How do Holocaust deniers explain the fact that everyone else believes there was a Holocaust? The same way Dylan explains why everyone else believes radical Muslim terrorists knocked down the WTC. This thread is absolutely on topic and in the right section of the forum. Thank you, Questioninggeller.

[Oliver]

Well, to be honest. The topic of these two nazi-teenies
sounds to me like a bag of rice fell in china. So i´m out
of this thread. But i appreciate if someone tells me if
this moron Huffy arrives in here.

[Questioninggeller]

My stepson had a history teacher who told the class the Holocaust never happened. I filed a complaint against that teacher with the school and the county school board. He didn't teach there much longer, as I recall, but it wasn't because of my complaint, alone. Mine was just one of many, gathered over years.

Tell more, I've never heard of any such case. Was it an off-the-cuff remark or did he have a theory to it? How long did it take to remove him?

[slingblade]

Oh, it was so long ago! Another life, to be honest. It's not much of a story.

The best I can recall, my stepson came home from school and simply said his history teacher told them the Holocaust never happened. I asked him for details, but like most 12 or 13 year-olds, he didn't remember much. So, I called the school, and was told others had also complained, and I would need to file a written complaint. I did that, but it didn't say much. Just that this lie was told, and I protested it. A copy was made and sent on to the school board.

I heard through the grapevine (it was a VERY small town), that the teacher had decided to transfer to a new district. The next year, he was gone; I don't know where.

Not a very helpful anecdote, I admit. I mostly remember how outraged I was that anyone, especially a teacher of history, could deny something for which there is so much evidence.

[Kiwiwriter]

Holocaust denial is relevant to discussion of conspiracy theories, because the neo-Nazi and Holocaust deniers are heavily into conspiracy theories of all kinds.

When 9/11 happened, the neo-Nazis issued some awful statements that basically cheered on the bombers for killing Jews and wishing the neo-Nazis and their adherents had the guts to pull the same stunt. Interesting how neo-Nazis are only willing to have barbecues and beat each other up for their cause.

When those statements drew predictable revulsion, the neo-Nazis switched gears and blamed the destruction on a Jewish conspiracy, of course.

These guys also have done tax protest stuff that have defrauded suckers and threatened the lives of judges and attorneys, and their conspiracy stuff has really invaded American civil discourse and politics.

So it's relevant in that regard.

[maccy]

evidence of holocaust deniers on the loose change forum:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1191
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1137

and you don't have to dig around this board for long before you hit all kinds of anti-semitism:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/index.php