JAQing off to more raygun nonsense

[Sword_Of_Truth]

In a fit of intellectual masochism, I've been reading Spooked911's blog (http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/2006/11/ground-zero-smoking-gun-3-what-hell.html) again.

He has come to the absurd conclusion that the north wall of WTC1, all 1300 feet of it, was reduced to molecular or atomic consistency by Judy "Scholars for Tooth" Woods death star beam.

WHERE THE HELL DID ALL THAT STEEL GO????????

It is, for all intents and purposes, the steel of the north wall is GONE.

The only conceivable explanation is that, indeed, some high-energy weapon disintegrated the steel as it fell, at the same time making huge holes in WTC6.


In the spirit of the "speed of gravity" (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66568&highlight=Speed+of+gravity) thread, I'm daring to ask the questions that even Spooked is afraid of.

How much does all that steel and aluminum weigh?

How much energy would it take to convert just the north wall of WTC1 into iron, carbon and aluminum gas in the space of just a few seconds?

What would be the approximate effect on lower Manhattan of the sudden conversion of that much steel and aluminum into a gas right in the middle of the financial district (for simplicitys sake, feel free to assume heat and blast effects only, ignore radiation)?

My gut says the effects would be similar to a airburst nuke in the sub-Hiroshima range just for the one WTC wall.

I'm just asking questions, here. ;)

[Horatius]

He's got another post with similar arguments here (http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/2006/11/wtc5-normal-versus-abnormal-building.html).

Note, the beam weapon was almost certainly not a "laser" but rather a microwave weapon with particular affinity for concrete and steel. The idea is that the beam (or beams) vibrated at the proper frequency to blow apart steel and concrete and turn them into fine dust.

Now, where have I heard that before (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2102717#post2102717)? There's nothing new under the sun....

[Anti-sophist]

The specific heat of steel/iron is about 452. Aluminunm is 900. That's J/kg/deg-C

Steel's boiling point is ~3000 degC
Aluminum's boiling point is ~2500 degC

That works out to 1.3MJ per kg for steel, and 2.2MJ per kg of aluminum.

Guesstimate some masses, and off you go.

(I've ignored the energy required to actually cause the phase change. Probably need to round-up your answer for that).




Of course, you haven't really settled the issue of what all this steel and aluminum gas is gonna do once it condenses shortly after raining molten steel and aluminum which will freeze (ha ha) into a hail of steel and aluminum filings. Both will readily oxidize, too. Iron oxide and aluminum filings, together, could create a thermite reaction.

It would be a molten metal, fiery hailstorm of doom. Quite the show.

[Horatius]

Of course, you haven't really settled the issue of what all this steel and aluminum gas is gonna do once it condenses shortly after raining molten steel and aluminum which will freeze (ha ha) into a hail of steel and aluminum filings.

Not to mention what such a rain of molten droplets would do to any of the people in the way.

[Loss Leader]

If it could be super-heated to some sort of quark-gluon plasma, it wouldn't condense back into a metal when cooled, though. It would just form mostly harmless hydrogen atoms which would float off into the atmosphere quite undetected.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Not to mention what such a rain of molten droplets would do to any of the people in the way.

Yay for spherules!

[Horatius]

If it could be super-heated to some sort of quark-gluon plasma, it wouldn't condense back into a metal when cooled, though. It would just form mostly harmless hydrogen atoms which would float off into the atmosphere quite undetected.

But since even a "normal" electron-nucleus plasma already pretty damn hot, this just makes things worse.

What's the binding energy of an iron nucleus? I know it's the most tightly bound, so this would be just exactly the worst-case senario for this.

And that's assuming the super-heated cloud of iron&whatnot stays in the beam long enough to be rendered down to quarks and gluons.

[Horatius]

Of course, you haven't really settled the issue of what all this steel and aluminum gas is gonna do once it condenses shortly after raining molten steel and aluminum which will freeze (ha ha) into a hail of steel and aluminum filings. Both will readily oxidize, too. Iron oxide and aluminum filings, together, could create a thermite reaction.

It would be a molten metal, fiery hailstorm of doom. Quite the show.

I've been remembering working with aluminum back in school. I used to evapourate it in a vacuum to form mirrors for some optical experiments, and to form contact films on some samples.

Even just a little bit could coat the inside of the bell jar I was using in an opaque reflective layer. Imagine every building in Manhatten with a brand new iron and aluminum mirror coating!

[JanH]

Did any of you watch that episode of Mythbusters where they tested Nikolai Tesla's "earthquake machine"?

Has any of the woos suggested one of those brought down the WTC yet? Well, if not, consider this an attempt at a preemptive conspiracy theory strike. But then again, you'd expect that from the NWO.

[Hellbound]

I will reiterate my earlier conclusion RE beam weapons.

Any beam weapon capable of delivering the amount of energy claimed by CTers in the amount of time the towers fell would have been blindingly (pun intended) obvious to anyone in the area, as the beam would have affected everything in it's path, including the air, creating a huge ionization trail that would have an effect just like the world's largest ever lightning bolt. The expansion of super-heated air would have created a concussion wave from the point of impact, and a vacuum effect when the beam stopped and the air rushed back in (along with a huge thunderslap that would have blown the eardrums of anyone within several blocks). Such a weapon would also represent at least 100 years of technical advancement over current ability.

Even assuming super-sekrit-laws-of-physics-are-more-like-suggested-practices-of-reality-guidable-targettable-tuneable-microwave-lasers-of-ultimate-doom that preferrentially affect concrete and steel, the sidewalks, cars, rescue vehicles and equipment, sidewalks, tooth filings, pacemakers, foundations, subway tunnels, etc would have been damaged as well (because it doesn't affect earth, this means that it passes through the dirt and affects the concrete of the subway tunnel. A substance can only block a beam by reflection or absorption...reflection would have caused damage to everything nearby, absorption is what you want it to do to steel and concrete and would have left a huge crater. So it has to be transparent to this mythical Ultra-beam-stellar-converter-Antarean-cannon-o'-destruction).

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This is what I think of (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PcX0V-_b_V8) when I hear twooofers talk about the metal of the WTC being "evaporated" as the buildings collapsed.

Solid materials take up alot less space than thier gaseous forms. If large portions of the WTC were heated to thier vaporization point by directed energy weapons, the superheated gasses would start to expand quite rapidly to fill up thier new volume. It would be distinctly unpleasant for anyone nearby.

The above clip shouldn't be far off from what would occur under TS$1.98 and Spooked's scenario.

[carlvs]

But since even a "normal" electron-nucleus plasma already pretty damn hot, this just makes things worse.

What's the binding energy of an iron nucleus? I know it's the most tightly bound, so this would be just exactly the worst-case senario for this.

Considering that the only way that a star can fuse iron is by going supernova, I don't think there would be much left of NYC if such an reaction took place...

[Hellbound]

carlvs:

Nope...the crater would likely be visible from space.

[mortimer]

Such a weapon would also represent at least 100 years of technical advancement over current ability.

Maybe YOUR current ability, but we're talking about GWB's gubmint forces here!

[Hellbound]

Maybe YOUR current ability, but we're talking about GWB's gubmint forces here!

That's what I'm saying. IF they're that far ahead of the norm, then:

1. Give up and accept the official story, because it doesn't matter anyway.
2. The conspiracy is even larger, as they must have all these great scientists working on this stuff and none has leaked even a hint of it.
3. We should not be losing any war, anywhere.
4. These are the best hidden weapons/technologies out there, considering you can purchase a telescope relatively inexpensively that can resolve satellites...and no one found this super beam weapon (even the places that track orbital debris, down to the inch-diameter size, using radar and similar techniques).

[JamesB]

They used harmonic magnetic frequencies to contain the plasma formed by the death ray.

It's true, I saw it in Spider-man 2.

[Hellbound]

They used harmonic magnetic frequencies to contain the plasma formed by the death ray.

It's true, I saw it in Spider-man 2.

Hmm.

Make that 200 years.

[Overman]

They used harmonic magnetic frequencies to contain the plasma formed by the death ray.

It's true, I saw it in Spider-man 2.

Spiderman 3 may 7th 2007.

Spiderman fights starwarz weapons. MJ evaporates.

[Loss Leader]

as the beam would have affected everything in it's path, including the air, creating a huge ionization trail that would have an effect just like the world's largest ever lightning bolt.

See, I don't think this is necessarily true. Like Archimedes' Death Ray, the beam could have a focal point right at the towers, so that air between the beam and the towers would not be affected. Bear in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[gumboot]

Darth Vader and Yoda did it with the force. That's what happens when the dark side and the light side combine.

-Gumboot

[Hellbound]

See, I don't think this is necessarily true. Like Archimedes' Death Ray, the beam could have a focal point right at the towers, so that air between the beam and the towers would not be affected. Bear in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Well, you're talking about a slightly different concept, and a MUCH higher level of power.

You could use multiple beams, but that just compounds the problems (coordinating the strikes, more satellites) and each would still be powerful enough for visible effects...of some sort.

Assuming microwave, you'd at least have heating of cloud cover and water vapor in the air, and at the power levels needed this would be signifigant.

But, you might be right...perhaps you could get the power levels low enough to reduce ionization of the air....you still have the other problems (compounded now by the fact that some beams come in at an angle, which would make it almost impossible to do a precision strike without hitting some of the surrounding area and buildings).

[Bell]

This is what I think of (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PcX0V-_b_V8) when I hear twooofers talk about the metal of the WTC being "evaporated" as the buildings collapsed.

Solid materials take up alot less space than thier gaseous forms. If large portions of the WTC were heated to thier vaporization point by directed energy weapons, the superheated gasses would start to expand quite rapidly to fill up thier new volume. It would be distinctly unpleasant for anyone nearby.

The above clip shouldn't be far off from what would occur under TS$1.98 and Spooked's scenario.

IIRC correctly, the WTC pretty much survived that attack, allthough damaged. So I call the space-beam/microwave/star-wars/super-duper-weapon officialy debunked.

[Loss Leader]

Okay, I think I've got it: Stargate SG1 is real and the 9/11 attacks were actually the beginning of the destruction of earth by the Goa'uld, barely avoided by the heroic actions of SG1 with the help of the Tok'ra and the free Jaffa and, let's say, certain sympathetic members of the Lucian Alliance. Oh, and a Wraith hiveship commanded by the engineer guy from Enterprise. And Inara from Firefly, formerly of the Ori.

[hellaeon]

How can you guys discount the weapons witnessed in this event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Worlds_%282005_film%29)?

This proves how the NWO carried it out.

[Horatius]

Okay, I think I've got it: Stargate SG1 is real and the 9/11 attacks were actually the beginning of the destruction of earth by the Goa'uld, barely avoided by the heroic actions of SG1 with the help of the Tok'ra and the free Jaffa and, let's say, certain sympathetic members of the Lucian Alliance. Oh, and a Wraith hiveship commanded by the engineer guy from Enterprise. And Inara from Firefly, formerly of the Ori.

Throw in Kaylee and her space monkeys, and we've got a deal!

[defaultdotxbe]

Okay, I think I've got it: Stargate SG1 is real and the 9/11 attacks were actually the beginning of the destruction of earth by the Goa'uld, barely avoided by the heroic actions of SG1 with the help of the Tok'ra and the free Jaffa and, let's say, certain sympathetic members of the Lucian Alliance. Oh, and a Wraith hiveship commanded by the engineer guy from Enterprise. And Inara from Firefly, formerly of the Ori.

Throw in Kaylee and her space monkeys, and we've got a deal!
needs more babylon 5, get the minbari involved and im in

[orphia nay]

Just letting you know of one sort of person who quotes the SWBW article...

One of my troofer adversaries brought up the SWBW article after a long debate about thermite.

I quoted where Judy Wood considers Steven Jones totally wrong, and asked the troofer if she disagreed with those who were adamant it was thermite, she said 'I'm not here to celebrate disagreement'.

(:rolleyes:)

She then proceeded to follow my suggestion that we debate facts (after I'd received numerous ad hominem attacks) to support the SWBW theory. She linked to several .gov webpages showing:
-plans for planes using lasers to destroy missiles
-small rocket launcher using radar to seek missiles
-BTOC missile guidance comm. van

I asked what these had to do with a SWBW - where were the planes shooting lasers at the WTC, and where were the beams of light? She said she never said anything about a beam of light (despite linking to the Star Wars Beam Weapon article :rolleyes:).

I asked her if she knew the difference between a laser and radar. She said she probably got them confused, but then said she wasn't going to debate me anymore.

But she said she was sticking by her theory that 9/11 was somehow a missile test gone wrong. Apparently Flights 11 and 175 had guided missiles attached to their bases which in turn guided (carried?) the planes which mistakenly(?) crashed into the towers...

I wished her good luck, and hoped she could find facts to show guided missiles which guide planes.

[R.Mackey]

Well, you're talking about a slightly different concept, and a MUCH higher level of power.

You could use multiple beams, but that just compounds the problems (coordinating the strikes, more satellites) and each would still be powerful enough for visible effects...of some sort.

Assuming microwave, you'd at least have heating of cloud cover and water vapor in the air, and at the power levels needed this would be signifigant.

But, you might be right...perhaps you could get the power levels low enough to reduce ionization of the air....you still have the other problems (compounded now by the fact that some beams come in at an angle, which would make it almost impossible to do a precision strike without hitting some of the surrounding area and buildings).

The least disruptive beam from the standpoint of atmospheric effects would be a large, fully populated conical beam rather than multiple single beams... although the size of the emitter would grow as well, equal to the size of the base of the cone... To get any meaningful dispersion away from the focal point, you'd need a significant angle, and remember our orbiting WKBWoD (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2086102#post2086102) would be at least 200 km or so high to remain in orbit -- a cone only five degrees across means a spacecraft diameter of 17.5 km. That's one big satellite.

And even then, the beam would still probably be visible. In my expeditions, I've driven past Solar Two (http://www.ece.umr.edu/links/power/Energy_Course/energy/Renewables/Solar_thermal/STE_program.pdf) a couple of times. The effect would be quite similar, as there we have a vast cone of reflected sunlight focused on a large tower. The visible effect is bizarre, unlike anything else I've ever seen. Even in the clearest still air, there is a visible halo surrounding the target, hovering in space, as even the smallest amount of dust or condensation reflects enough light to be visible. I might even call it ghostly, for those prone to superstition.

Yet this is for a beam that is a mere 10 MW in total power. Our beam, you may recall, is a thousand times more intense. And that's for the weaker beam design.

[Horatius]

And even then, the beam would still probably be visible. In my expeditions, I've driven past Solar Two (http://www.ece.umr.edu/links/power/Energy_Course/energy/Renewables/Solar_thermal/STE_program.pdf) a couple of times.

You can get an idea of how much illumination there would be from the two pictures in that link. The receiver is clearly black in the first shot, but in the "operational" picture, it's glowing white. That is, a black object reflects enough stray light to appear white.

Lots of power.

[TjW]

Darth Vader and Yoda did it with the force. That's what happens when the dark side and the light side combine.

-Gumboot

I thought that was duct tape.
It has a light side, and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

[Loss Leader]

What about a ground-based beam weapon and a space or high-altitude mirror? It solves the problem of getting the giant frickin' laser into orbit but it doubles the amount of atmosphere it would have to travel through. If the weapon were under the grounds of the Pentagon, a malfunction and explosion would explain the damage to that complex. It would also explain why the weapon hasn't been used since - the 9/11 blast destroyed it.

That still leaves four plane-loads of people to hijack and murder while feeding false radar and transponder data to air traffic control but for a government that can build a giant frickin' laser, that should be nothing.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Sharks with laserbeams on their heads.

[R.Mackey]

What about a ground-based beam weapon and a space or high-altitude mirror? It solves the problem of getting the giant frickin' laser into orbit but it doubles the amount of atmosphere it would have to travel through. If the weapon were under the grounds of the Pentagon, a malfunction and explosion would explain the damage to that complex. It would also explain why the weapon hasn't been used since - the 9/11 blast destroyed it.

That still leaves four plane-loads of people to hijack and murder while feeding false radar and transponder data to air traffic control but for a government that can build a giant frickin' laser, that should be nothing.
Not really. Now you need a giant frickin' mirror -- large to keep the beam focused on its target, but also large because the beam will spread on the way up. In fact, even discounting atmospheric effects, the requirement to keep the beam within the 63 meter width of the WTC tower will force you to use extremely high frequencies...

Under ideal conditions, the mirror would need to be half the size of the WTC tower, or 31 meters across. Not possible with current technology. The biggest quality mirror ever flown is in the Hubble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope), and it's a mere 2.4 meters. We're working on the follow-on James Webb Space Telescope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope), which will feature a multi-segmented mirror about 6.5 meters across -- assuming it ever gets completed. The challenge is not trivial.

Even then, you still have the "halo" problems discussed above. And good luck keeping that mirror pointed, and held on target, as it tries to keep from melting under the load of 1010 Watts. The slightest speck of dust, mirror aberration, or lack of polish would probably doom the mission.

[bignickel]

This is what I think of (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PcX0V-_b_V8) when I hear twooofers talk about the metal of the WTC being "evaporated" as the buildings collapsed.

You know, I never really thought about it when I saw the movie (I didn't think it was all that great a flick, and I was too busy going 'hey, there's Brent Spiner!'), but seeing that explosion again...

What exactly is happening in that scene? What exactly is blowing up? They drop a nuclear bomb out the door, fine, that I can understand. But what exactly is detonating here? I can see the outer walls of the buildings blowing outwards, so something inside is exploding, but I have no idea what. I certainly can't figure out why the explosion is 1. heading outwards a considerable distance 2. destroying more buildings but still not stopping and 3. moving very slowly (yeah, I know that every Hollywood movie these days has to have slow explosions).

Furthermore, why isn't this explosion going up? I would think with the forces I'm seeing, that the shock wave would tear whatever is up above to pieces.

[chippy]

Sharks with laserbeams on their heads.

How did you do that?

And NICE ICON btw. The Dark Tower series was absolutely amazing. I'm not sure what I thought of the ending, but it's the ride that counts, right? I remember reading the last 200 or 250 pages of book 7 non-stop because I had to know what was in that damn tower!

[Oliver]

He did that with "spoiler" tags:
http://forums.randi.org/misc.php?do=bbcode

[Pidge]

Sharks with laserbeams on their heads.

I'm sure that should besharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

How did you do that?

And NICE ICON btw. The Dark Tower series was absolutely amazing. I'm not sure what I thought of the ending, but it's the ride that counts, right? I remember reading the last 200 or 250 pages of book 7 non-stop because I had to know what was in that damn tower!

shhhh, I'm almost done with Wolves of the Calla.

[Horatius]

Not really. Now you need a giant frickin' mirror



Just to complete the CT circle of life, I humbly suggest, HAARP (http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/) did it (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/HAARP.htm)!