Converting before marriage

[ponderingturtle]

I just started thinking about this when hearing about my brothers sister inlaw was getting married and converting to Islam to please his family. I thought it was a pretty strange thing to do, why pretend to be something else to please people that much.

I was just wonder what people here thought about it.

[Phil]

It's nothing new. I've been pretending to be a decent human being to please my girlfriends for years now.

[Kaylee]

I just started thinking about this when hearing about my brothers sister inlaw was getting married and converting to Islam to please his family. I thought it was a pretty strange thing to do, why pretend to be something else to please people that much.

I was just wonder what people here thought about it.

I think the in-laws are usually concerned about what religion their future gandchildren will be taught and what holidays they will celebrate. If the new daughter or son-in-law converts before the wedding -- well their questions are answered, presumably to their satisfaction.

[wahrheit]

I just started thinking about this when hearing about my brothers sister inlaw was getting married and converting to Islam to please his family. I thought it was a pretty strange thing to do, why pretend to be something else to please people that much.
Tells a lot about religion, doesn't it? "Oh, well, yes, dunno about Islam, was kinda Christian* before, what the heck, why not convert..."


*assumption

[Marquis de Carabas]

It's nothing new. I've been pretending to be a decent human being to please my girlfriends for years now.
I think decent is extraneous in this case.

[Freethinker]

It's nothing new. I've been pretending to be a decent human being to please my girlfriends for years now.

I've warned my daughter that all men are like that, even me.

[ponderingturtle]

Tells a lot about religion, doesn't it? "Oh, well, yes, dunno about Islam, was kinda Christian* before, what the heck, why not convert..."


*assumption

Was not religious before and does not believe in it, it is just to satisfy inlaws and represents no changes in belief.

I think I could respect converting to any religion for heart felt reasons alot more than converting to please someone else.

[wahrheit]

Was not religious before and does not believe in it, it is just to satisfy inlaws and represents no changes in belief.

Hypocrisy at it's best, isn't it?

I think I could respect converting to any religion for heart felt reasons alot more than converting to please someone else.
As atheist as I am - I would certainly agree with you here.

What in the world might drive a non-religous woman to converting to a religion, especially one like Islam?

Even if it is "only" to please in-laws, I find that quite astonishing, to put it mildly.

[ponderingturtle]

Hypocrisy at it's best, isn't it?

I guess that is what religion thrives on

As atheist as I am - I would certainly agree with you here.

What in the world might drive a non-religous woman to converting to a religion, especially one like Islam?

Even if it is "only" to please in-laws, I find that quite astonishing, to put it mildly.

Convert not practice. And it might have been also to annoy her mother, she didn't like that my brother isn't catholic, and did not speak to his wife for several years ending shorting before they where married.

In that family it is hard to keep track of who is not talking to who and why. I don't believe my sister in laws aunt is talking to her because she was so rude to leave thanksgiving dinner just because they did not get started until 7 and she had a toddler and infant who where having problems being up to late.

Sure every family is weird, but some are much weirder than others.

[Marc L]

The most religious thing I've done to please my inlaws was to have my daughter baptized. We did it in the ship's bell, which was my only compromise.

Marc

[Tanstaafl]

Was not religious before and does not believe in it, it is just to satisfy inlaws and represents no changes in belief.

I think I could respect converting to any religion for heart felt reasons alot more than converting to please someone else.


It seems to me this is not "conversion", this is "lying".

She is claiming to believe in Islam while knowing full well she does not believe.

[Phil]

It seems to me this is not "conversion", this is "lying".

She is claiming to believe in Islam while knowing full well she does not believe.

Of course it's lying.

Our choices are to a) live strictly by our convictions and never waver no matter what, risking never experiencing many of life's wonderful elements (like romantic love) because of them. Or b) make surface compromises to be able to interact with the other humans on the levels that are most attractive to us as living creatures.

I don't know about any of you, but I have missed out on many relationships because of my beliefs (or lack thereof). And even though I can never change what I know to be true in my heart, and even though I think what resides in the hearts of the religious may be based on silly notions, I nonetheless find many of them to be wonderful and attractive people.

More importantly, I really want to experience those things in life that are most rare and precious, and if it means giving a little lip service or softening my stance on something, I will gladly do it, because the rewards are far greater than any superficial philosophical sacrifice.

[Ossai]

ponderingturtle
I just started thinking about this when hearing about my brothers sister inlaw was getting married and converting to Islam to please his family. I thought it was a pretty strange thing to do, why pretend to be something else to please people that much.

I was just wonder what people here thought about it. My female cousin was ambushed on her wedding day and forced to sign a prenuptial agreement stating that she would abide by catholic teachings and that the children would be raised in the church. The amusing thing, from my perspective, is that she still doesn’t abide by catholic teachings and their two children (after almost 11 years of marriage, she is on the pill) go to an protestant church as much as the catholic one.

[Darth Rotor]

Was not religious before and does not believe in it, it is just to satisfy inlaws and represents no changes in belief.

I think I could respect converting to any religion for heart felt reasons alot more than converting to please someone else.
Down that path lies peril for the insincere convert. If she isn't going to embrace the Faith, I suspect she's in for some downstream trouble. I hope not, for her sake.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

ponderingturtle
My female cousin was ambushed on her wedding day and forced to sign a prenuptial agreement stating that she would abide by catholic teachings and that the children would be raised in the church.
That is a foul. Unless the rules have changed recently, the correct process is not to wait for the wedding day to clear that matter up. There is an entire pre cana process where this matter, such as marriage to bloody heretics (non Catholics) and others gets explored. I married a Catholic, and was presented with this delicate confrontation some months before the wedding.

Would I be correct in guessing that your cousin was married in a Catholic service?

Looks like a priest wasn't doing his job. :( Boooo. Hissssss.

DR

[Tanstaafl]

I don't know about any of you, but I have missed out on many relationships because of my beliefs (or lack thereof). And even though I can never change what I know to be true in my heart, and even though I think what resides in the hearts of the religious may be based on silly notions, I nonetheless find many of them to be wonderful and attractive people.

I guess you have been less fortunate than me. I don't think there is much I have missed out on, mostly because no one has been all that concerned with what I do or don't believe. Most family members assume I'm still a Christian, but it really doesn't come up. I guess it's a lie of omission.

There was some issue when I got married the first time. My soon-to-be brother-in-law (the deacon) tried to convince me to become Catholic before the wedding. No way was I buying into that. I guess I was already a grumpy skeptic.

[Brian Jackson]

Well, Tom Cruise surely doesn't want his beard left behind when XENU's troops come.

[Quinn]

It's interesting to read how some people consider such a nominal conversion an acceptable little white lie, while others consider it a much bigger deal. There was a time in my life when I probably would have done such a thing under the right circumstances, but now, absolutely no way. I can't see it as anything but setting yourself up for boatloads of trouble down the road.

I was once engaged to a woman who was a "happily fallen Catholic," but whose mom was still super-duper-über-Catholic. Naturally there was much concern about her daughter marrying a heretic, most of which we both simply brushed off. But the most surreal moment was when I heard that the mom had been looking until annulments. At first I was simply confused as to why this woman would be looking into annulments for her recently-engaged daughter. Then it was pointed out that the annulment wasn't for her, but for me -- because I had been married before. If I were the sort of person to take offense easily, I would no doubt have been furious. Instead I just laughed so hard at the sheer ridiculousness of notion that I ended up literally rolling on the floor. Poor, deluded, silly Catholic...

[Marquis de Carabas]

If I really dug some Christian chick, and pretending to be a Christian around her family would make things easier, I'd do it (to a certain extent, at least). I'd pretend to be a Aggie fan, too. Who really cares?

[Darth Rotor]

If I really dug some Christian chick, and pretending to be a Christian around her family would make things easier, I'd do it (to a certain extent, at least). I'd pretend to be a Aggie fan, too. Who really cares?
The Twelfth Man, the Twelve Apostles, and the Twelfth Imam. Other than them, no one. :)

DR

[Pae]

It's nothing new. I've been pretending to be a decent human being to please my girlfriends for years now.

So sad......

But it couldn't be any more true. :D

[Meadmaker]

One thing I have learned, from experience, is that you need to be prepared to really be clear in advance what you are willing to do, and why. I married a Jewish woman under similar terms, and now find myself a whole lot more Jewish than I ever expected to be. I don't mind that, but it's not what I expected.

The problem comes in when kids are born. Suddenly, the whole religion meme pops up big time, and much more seriously than you ever expected.

There's one other problem that no one ever forsees, but I have seen it happen a couple of times to friends. They say there is no one more zealous than a convert. One spouse converts to religion just to please the spouse or the in-laws, and ends up going overboard and the first spouse ends up getting a lot more religion than he bargained for.

[Art Vandelay]

My female cousin was ambushed on her wedding day and forced to sign a prenuptial agreement stating that she would abide by catholic teachings and that the children would be raised in the church.I take it you mean "coerced" rather than "forced"? Did her husband participate? I'd say that's a really clear sign that one shouldn't marry someone.

[Quinn]

If I really dug some Christian chick, and pretending to be a Christian around her family would make things easier, I'd do it (to a certain extent, at least). I'd pretend to be a Aggie fan, too. Who really cares?

I guess it depends on what exactly "pretending to be a Christian" entails, and on the amount of time and energy you're willing to invest in pretending to be something you're not. Bowing your head while they say grace once or twice a year is one thing; going through months of classes that culminate in a public proclamation of faith, altering the way you raise your kids, and pledging a certain amount of your time and money to an institution you don't believe in for the rest of your life, is obviously quite another. My personal, unverifiable, purely anecdotal experience is that the distance between those two points is often shorter than people think, and underestimating it can make your life very messy.

ETA: I don't know who/what Aggie is, or how pretending to be a fan of him/her/it/them would compare with pretending to be a Christian. Is it even worse?

[Marquis de Carabas]

I guess it depends on what exactly "pretending to be a Christian" entails, and on the amount of time and energy you're willing to invest in pretending to be something you're not. Bowing your head while they say grace once or twice a year is one thing; going through months of classes that culminate in a public proclamation of faith, altering the way you raise your kids, and pledging a certain amount of your time and money to an institution you don't believe in for the rest of your life, is obviously quite another. My personal, unverifiable, purely anecdotal experience is that the distance between those two points is often shorter than people think, and underestimating it can make your life very messy.
That's what I meant by to a certain extent. I don't know how far I'd go; I figure that's something that I'd play by ear if the situation ever arose. But simple stuff--just saying "yeah, i believe", attending the occasional service when we visit for holidays, not saying goddamn so much--no problem, for me.

ETA: I don't know who/what Aggie is, or how pretending to be a fan of him/her/it/them would compare with pretending to be a Christian. Is it even worse?
The Aggies are the sports teams of Texas A&M University. As a University of Texas fan, I hate them. But my point was that I think religious allegiance is about as important as sports team allegiance, and I would feign either for the right benefits.

[ponderingturtle]

That's what I meant by to a certain extent. I don't know how far I'd go; I figure that's something that I'd play by ear if the situation ever arose. But simple stuff--just saying "yeah, i believe", attending the occasional service when we visit for holidays, not saying goddamn so much--no problem, for me.


The Aggies are the sports teams of Texas A&M University. As a University of Texas fan, I hate them. But my point was that I think religious allegiance is about as important as sports team allegiance, and I would feign either for the right benefits.

What think I am wondering about is why would someone find an insincere conversion comforting? She is still the same person that she was when the family told her that he had broken his leg in Lebanon and would be not coming back for quite some time.

I can see being polite and such, but I just don't get lieing to this extent, then again I am probably to honnest.

[Polaris]

I just started thinking about this when hearing about my brothers sister inlaw was getting married and converting to Islam to please his family. I thought it was a pretty strange thing to do, why pretend to be something else to please people that much.

I was just wonder what people here thought about it.

This would be the only reason I could think of for a sane woman to convert to Islam - by the tenets of the reliigion she doesn't even have to, as a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim woman (by contrast, if I wanted to marry a Muslim woman, I'd damn sure better be a card-carrying member of the mumunin).

This may come up as a problem if she isn't fully sincere about her conversion and the family decides to all go on the Hajj together. You have to pass a multitude of tests proving your faith in Allah to be able to even get near Mecca, let alone the Kabbah. I don't know what happens if someone fails the test, but knowing what I know about Wahhabis, I don't think it would be an event I would suggest standing in line for. Probably a lot of yelling and embarrassment/humiliation in front of the in laws followed by back-biting and dirty looks for the remainder of the marriage. I've read a lot of narratives of Islamic women and a common theme is a lot of meddling, nosey female in-laws. It's a big step, I hope she's sincere.

[Tanstaafl]

I just realized that I have been taking it a little farther than just going to weddings and funerals and such. I had forgotten that when I was going back East to vist my family every few months, I would always go to church Sunday with my mother. It meant something to her for me to be there. I don't think it was really about whether I believed or not, but rather that I would bother to accompany her. Though I suppose it did give her somewhat of a false impression about my beliefs. I pretty much just watched the clock and counted the minutes until it would be over.

But I don't regret a minute of it.

[Art Vandelay]

I would guess that your mother isn't Catholic? Because mass is more than just going to church. Attendees are expected to engage in overt acts of worship, such as genuflecting and Communion, so it's difficult to just be there without actively engaging in religious acts.

[Ossai]

Darth Rotor
Would I be correct in guessing that your cousin was married in a Catholic service? Yes, she was married in a catholic church. In fact the whole thing was almost called off because of the ambush tactic used. She was actually presented with everything the morning of the wedding.

Art Vandelay
I take it you mean "coerced" rather than "forced"? Normally I would agree with this one but it was her family that had spent a large chunk of money for the wedding, reception, etc.,they (my cousin and her current husband) were in love, and the amount of pressure she was under to go through with the wedding from her family and friends so I think ‘forced’ is the correct term to use.

Did her husband participate? My understanding is that he was present when the documents were presented but didn’t really have anything to do with it past that.
I'd say that's a really clear sign that one shouldn't marry someone. That was my take on the whole thing. If that had happened to me I would have walked out and then presented the ex-fiancé with the bill, or at least half of it.

Ossai

[bluess]

I would guess that your mother isn't Catholic? Because mass is more than just going to church. Attendees are expected to engage in overt acts of worship, such as genuflecting and Communion, so it's difficult to just be there without actively engaging in religious acts.

Nope. You just sit there. I will rise when everyone rises, but won't kneel. I don't bow my head in prayer. I read the stuff in the pew back. The only real awkwardness is when people have to shuffle by me to take communion.

(Side note. The firm I work for has a number of Catholics, all of whom seem to have slept through their Catechism classes. They had no idea they were supposed to believe that they were actually eating their god during communion.)

[Tanstaafl]

I would guess that your mother isn't Catholic? Because mass is more than just going to church. Attendees are expected to engage in overt acts of worship, such as genuflecting and Communion, so it's difficult to just be there without actively engaging in religious acts.

Methodist. A pretty tolerant bunch. Plus there's no kneeling. I did do a little singing, I admit. But quietly, out of courtesy for the poor people around me. :D

Though I have been to a Catholic wedding mass, and just sat there through the religious parts. I think whether that is a problem during a regular mass may depend on the parish, but I suspect these days no one would be hassled for just sitting in the pew.