Deja Vu - Fiji coup time.... Again!

[The Atheist]

Fiji, tropical paradise.

Fiji, home of stupid army commanders.

Fiji, home of indigenous racists.

As of noon today, the fourth coup in the past 20 years will be carried out. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10413232) So far, the death toll for all combined coups is 0.

Let's hope it stays that way, but don't book your holiday in the sun just yet.

[Gurdur]

.. indigenous racists....
The nerve of them, trying to compete with John Howard. How dare they?

[gtc]

The nerve of them, trying to compete with John Howard. How dare they?

I don't follow, the OP was by a New Zealander commenting on Fiji.

[pipelineaudio]

I think that was perhaps one of the least informative articles I have ever read

[a_unique_person]

The whole area is going to the ****house. Seems like half the island nations are self destructing in one way or another.

[DanishDynamite]

Coups are not necessarily a bad thing when compared to the state of affairs before the coup.

Pakistan is one example.

[Kopji]

Yeah the nerve of these places. They should all have puppet governments so we can have cheap stuff and vacation spots.

[The Atheist]

I think that was perhaps one of the least informative articles I have ever read

That's ok, it gets better - they've re-scheduled the coup because they're playing rugby! (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10413232)

[The Atheist]

Coups are not necessarily a bad thing when compared to the state of affairs before the coup.

Pakistan is one example.Doesn't apply here, the government is legitimate and has done a good job of recovery after the previous coups. Start all over again....

[The Atheist]

I don't follow, the OP was by a New Zealander commenting on Fiji.NZ and Australia are pretty good at keeping the peace in the South Pacific and Fiji is high on our agenda - a comparison would be USA and Mexico - close neighbours who you try to help, but ultimately are powerless to change the course of events, unless force is used, and it won't be.

[DanishDynamite]

Doesn't apply here, the government is legitimate and has done a good job of recovery after the previous coups. Start all over again....
What doesn't apply here? What government is legitimate in your opinion?

[The Atheist]

The whole area is going to the ****house. Seems like half the island nations are self destructing in one way or another.Yeah, how the hell did all this crap get down here? Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu, East Timor - Jesus, we're going to run out of troops to sort them out shortly - better get Johnny to re-introduce the draft there.

[The Atheist]

What doesn't apply here? What government is legitimate in your opinion?Comparing Pakistan to Fiji is like comparing USSR to Mauritius.

Fiji's government is legitimate, constitutional and reasonable. Bainimarama isn't any of those. He's a strong-arm dick with an agenda of his own choosing.

[pipelineaudio]

Yeah, how the hell did all this crap get down here? Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu, East Timor - Jesus, we're going to run out of troops to sort them out shortly - better get Johnny to re-introduce the draft there.

We hawaiians will look after the tongans if it really comes down to it. Something tells me we should have supported our portagees in east timor, but Fiji? Isnt Fiji more Indian than polynesian by now?

[a_unique_person]

I think you have just stumbled on to a part of the problem.

[a_unique_person]

Doesn't apply here, the government is legitimate and has done a good job of recovery after the previous coups. Start all over again....

Well, it has and it hasn't. One of the reasons for the coup is that Bainamarana was not with the previous leaders of the military coups, so they tried to kill him. He survived by diving out of a window. Now the current government wants to give those guys a pardon. Understandably, he is **** off at that. He shouldn't be wanting to hold a coup over it though. Just the threats were enough to put that stupid idea out of their minds. He should just back off now.

[gtc]

Well, it has and it hasn't. One of the reasons for the coup is that Bainamarana was not with the previous leaders of the military coups, so they tried to kill him. He survived by diving out of a window. Now the current government wants to give those guys a pardon. Understandably, he is **** off at that. He shouldn't be wanting to hold a coup over it though. Just the threats were enough to put that stupid idea out of their minds. He should just back off now.

I had wondered what his reasoning was. Without that it seems that he was threatening a coup because the government was too lenient to people who stage coups.

There is also the issue of native title over the sea shore.

[Zep]

Isn't the conduct of a coup in Fiji very similar in most respects to playing rugby? Perhaps someone actually confused the two...

[gtc]

NZ and Australia are pretty good at keeping the peace in the South Pacific and Fiji is high on our agenda - a comparison would be USA and Mexico - close neighbours who you try to help, but ultimately are powerless to change the course of events, unless force is used, and it won't be.

I know that, I am an Aussie. I just didn't follow how he turns your post into an attack on Howard.

Actually, I think Howard and the Clark have been too wishy-washy. Rather than faciliting the meeting between Qarase and Bainimarama earlier this week, I would have locked them in the room together and not let them out until they settled their differences. Then I would have asked the Fijians whether they wanted me to let them out or just leave them there. This is probably why I am not in charge of anything.

[Gurdur]

I don't follow, the OP was by a New Zealander commenting on Fiji.
My mistake. In which case, I should have said instead:

.. indigenous racists....
The nerve of them, trying to compete with the unlamented Piggy Muldoon. How dare they?

[gtc]

The nerve of them, trying to compete with the unlamented Piggy Muldoon. How dare they?

Thanks for clearing that up.

What country are you from by the way?

[The Atheist]

My mistake. In which case, I should have said instead:

The nerve of them, trying to compete with the unlamented Piggy Muldoon. How dare they?Muldoon was indigenous?

I thought he was megalomaniac.

[The Atheist]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/10377455a24061f109.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2607)

I see they've extended the deadline until Monday so they could get on the piss after the rugby match!

Ya have to hand it to them, they know how to have a bloodless coup in Fiji. Can't find a rugby score anywhere.

[gtc]

Muldoon was indigenous?

I thought he was megalomaniac.

I don't think Gurdur is saying Muldoon is indigineous.

I think he was implying that you as a New Zealander have no right to criticise Indigineous Fijian racists, because Muldoon was racist. Likewise, Australians have no right to criticise Indigineous Fijian racists, because Howard is racist.

No, I don't understand the logic either.

I am waiting for him to say where he is from, in which case I shall reply:

"The nerve of you, trying to compete with <insert name(s) of person(s) I shall allege to be racist>. How dare you?"

If he is (as I suspect) British, then I might be here for a while.

[gtc]

I see they've extended the deadline until Monday so they could get on the piss after the rugby match!

Its Monday and this time, we mean it!

Ya have to hand it to them, they know how to have a bloodless coup in Fiji. Can't find a rugby score anywhere.

The article you linked to in your OP has been updated with the score

A relaxed looking Bainimarama attended the games this afternoon, watching his Army Golden Oldies beat the Police Over-40s, 24-16. Then he took part in the celebrations, flanked by the vice-president of Fiji, Joni Madraiwiwi and Acting Police Commissioner Moses Driver.

A colourful crowd of around 5,000 predominantly ethnic Fijians turned up for the games and brass band demonstrations.

That's a big crowd for a game between 40 year olds during a coup alert.

[The Atheist]

That's a big crowd for a game between 40 year olds during a coup alert.
That's just the curtain-raiser, the main event is Army vs Police. Some of them will be Fiji reps - based on their teams historically.

[gtc]

Smiling and apparently in jovial mood, Bainimarama attended the game dressed in a floral shirt, but his military team was beaten in the dying stages of the game by the police, 17-15.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-12-01T083918Z_01_SP15227_RTRUKOC_0_US-FIJI.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-worldNews-8

Otherwise, one of the Fiji radio stations might have the score:
http://www.fijivillage.com/radio/index.shtml

[a_unique_person]

Friday was no good for coup, there was a game of rugby on, now it's weekend, and no-ones working. So it looks like it has to be Monday. Don't tell anyone.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/fiji-military-tipped-to-take-over/2006/12/03/1165080801493.html



Fiji's military chief is likely to carry out his threat to overthrow the government early tomorrow, a report quoted government and military sources as saying today.
The Fiji Sunday Post quoted the sources as saying the capital Suva was expected to be sealed by military roadblocks at the start of the operation from 3am (2am AEDT).

[The Atheist]

I don't think Gurdur is saying Muldoon is indigineous.

I think he was implying that you as a New Zealander have no right to criticise Indigineous Fijian racists, because Muldoon was racist. Likewise, Australians have no right to criticise Indigineous Fijian racists, because Howard is racist.

No, I don't understand the logic either.

I am waiting for him to say where he is from, in which case I shall reply:

"The nerve of you, trying to compete with <insert name(s) of person(s) I shall allege to be racist>. How dare you?"

If he is (as I suspect) British, then I might be here for a while.Sorry, mate, I missed this one.

If that's his [very peculiar] reasoning, he's a little late, Piggy's been dead a long time!

[Gurdur]

....I think he was implying that you as a New Zealander have no right to criticise Indigineous Fijian racists, because Muldoon was racist. Likewise, Australians have no right to criticise Indigineous Fijian racists, because Howard is racist.
A fair bit wrong. My point was more complex and subtle than that, but still quite clear.
Unless your attitudes impede your perception, natch. ;)
If he is (as I suspect) British, then I might be here for a while.
Tsk. Very wrong. One more try! And terribly ironical, although you don't know it. :D
...Piggy's been dead a long time!
D'oh. Give you one guess why I put in the "unlamented" adjective next to his name in my post. 'Course, if it still be too subtle then for you, I could always add "late" as in "the late, unlamented" as well just to be really, like, screamingly obvious. Or I dunno. Bold text with a cross and an RIP as well?
Muldoon was indigenous?
I thought he was megalomaniac.
Muldoon was certainly an indigenous NZer, born in Aukland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Muldoon). Tsk again.
And you're contraposing "indigenous" against "megalomaniac"? Tsk³.
Aren't you the one who likes to avoid a very blatant point to make irrelevant pseudo-pedantic attacks on the poster's typos (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2124089&postcount=125)?
Oh, that's right, so you are. Well now, logic and semantics correction time!

"Indigenous" and "megalomaniac" do not form any sane antonym pair of any kind.
his [very peculiar] reasoning,
Tsk². After your wildly unconnected pairings, you want to think my own reasoning is peculiar? Goodness. :boggled:

[mr rosewater]

Gurdur= Germany

[CFLarsen]

Fiji, home of stupid army commanders.

What do you base that on? Why is Fiji any different than other countries?

Fiji, home of indigenous racists.

Name one country without indigenous racists.

...or, perhaps, I misunderstand you? Are you saying that there are more racists on Fiji than what one would expect, on an average basis?

Bainimarama isn't any of those. He's a strong-arm dick with an agenda of his own choosing.

Name one leader who doesn't have an agenda of his own choosing.

[The Atheist]

First off, Gurdur, I think you're either showing your lack of English skills or just don't understand the usual meaning ascribed to the word "indigenous". I am using it in the usual connotation of someone who belongs to the native, original settlers of a country. In New Zealand's case, that would be Maori. In Australia, it would be Aboriginals.

You can argue all you like about that, but even if you weren't 100% sure what indigenous meant, the game had been given away when I referred to indigenous Fijians being racist. Their racism is directed against Fijian Indians - almost all of whom were born in Fiji, yet none of them are indigenous to it.

Understandable error by you, but still an error.
A fair bit wrong. My point was more complex and subtle than that, but still quite clear.
Unless your attitudes impede your perception, natch. ;)

Tsk. Very wrong. One more try! And terribly ironical, although you don't know it. :D

D'oh. Give you one guess why I put in the "unlamented" adjective next to his name in my post. 'Course, if it still be too subtle then for you, I could always add "late" as in "the late, unlamented" as well just to be really, like, screamingly obvious. Or I dunno. Bold text with a cross and an RIP as well?Not at all too subtle, just - as above - wrong.
Muldoon was certainly an indigenous NZer, born in Aukland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Muldoon). Tsk again.And doubled. I also suspect that you're not quite sure on "unlamented". It doesn't mean dead in any way at all. A Prime Minister can lose his job and be "unlamented" while still alive.
And you're contraposing "indigenous" against "megalomaniac"? Tsk³.
Aren't you the one who likes to avoid a very blatant point to make irrelevant pseudo-pedantic attacks on the poster's typos (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2124089&postcount=125)?
Oh, that's right, so you are. Well now, logic and semantics correction time!

"Indigenous" and "megalomaniac" do not form any sane antonym pair of any kind.OOps, subtlety obviously isn't your strong point after all! The whole point in using two completely unrelated characteristics was to counterpoint the fact that Muldoon was in no way indigenous to New Zealand. Sure he was born here - I'm well aware of where our most notoriously bad politican was born. (And that he was a racist)Tsk². After your wildly unconnected pairings, you want to think my own reasoning is peculiar? Goodness. :boggled:Your "reasoning" isn't peculiar, you just have no idea what you're writing about. Reason, it ain't.

[The Atheist]

What do you base that on? Why is Fiji any different than other countries?I don't know too much about military commanders, apart from Australia, NZ and the Pacific Islands. Aussie has had a couple of excellent, smart ones, NZ has had some very average ones, while Fiji has a load of very poor ones. When military commanders consistently overthrow legitimate, elected governments, I happen to think that's bad, no matter what reasoning there is behind it. In this case, the rationale is a joke. Bainimarama asked for concessions and was granted all of them. He used that as an excuse to change his mind and add in a couple of impossible ones. He's playing GWB on a minute scale. You a fan of that type of action?
Name one country without indigenous racists.

...or, perhaps, I misunderstand you? Are you saying that there are more racists on Fiji than what one would expect, on an average basis?No, I probably should have clarified for the ignorant. Fiji has a legislative racism where the majority population is unable to gain control of Parliament, merely because they aren't part of the indigenous population.
Name one leader who doesn't have an agenda of his own choosing.Helen Clark

[CFLarsen]

I don't know too much about military commanders, apart from Australia, NZ and the Pacific Islands. Aussie has had a couple of excellent, smart ones, NZ has had some very average ones, while Fiji has a load of very poor ones. When military commanders consistently overthrow legitimate, elected governments, I happen to think that's bad, no matter what reasoning there is behind it. In this case, the rationale is a joke. Bainimarama asked for concessions and was granted all of them. He used that as an excuse to change his mind and add in a couple of impossible ones. He's playing GWB on a minute scale. You a fan of that type of action?

If you had paid any attention to what I have posted in Politics about Bush, you would know that, no, I am not particularly fond of that type of action.

But if you admit that you don't know much about military commanders, except from a very small part of the world, don't you think you should have made that clear, instead of making these sweeping statements?

No, I probably should have clarified for the ignorant.

Ignorant? When called on it, you admit to having less of a broad knowledge, and you call people who question your sweeping statements "ignorant"?

Fiji has a legislative racism where the majority population is unable to gain control of Parliament, merely because they aren't part of the indigenous population.

Evidence?

Helen Clark

She is not a politician with an agenda of her own? Why not?

[Zep]

But if you admit that you don't know much about military commanders, except from a very small part of the world, don't you think you should have made that clear, instead of making these sweeping statements?His "sweeping statements" did seem to me to be about this part of the world, Claus.



Ignorant? When called on it, you admit to having less of a broad knowledge, and you call people who question your sweeping statements "ignorant"?See above.



She is not a politician with an agenda of her own? Why not?This is with reference to not toadying to major world leaders, Claus. And are you not aware of NZ's deliberate policy of inependent decisions re military responses?

For example, while Australia and NZ usually co-operate very closely in military matters in this region and have done so for a long time (that's where the acronym ANZAC originally came from), NZ deliberately did not get dragged into Iraq like Australia was - something Helen Clark had the balls to do that our L'il Johnny didn't.

[gtc]

If you had paid any attention to what I have posted in Politics about Bush, you would know that, no, I am not particularly fond of that type of action.

But if you admit that you don't know much about military commanders, except from a very small part of the world, don't you think you should have made that clear, instead of making these sweeping statements?

In what sense was he wrong about Fijian army leaders (I dare say he knows far more about Fijian army leaders than you)? If you can't actually rebutt his point, then don't butt in.


She is not a politician with an agenda of her own? Why not?

Read your question and his response again and think about pronouns.

[gumboot]

The thing I find hilarious about all this is they're wanting to stage a coup because they claim the government was too lenient on the last people to stage a coup.

Seriously, you can't make this stuff up.




For example, while Australia and NZ usually co-operate very closely in military matters in this region and have done so for a long time (that's where the acronym ANZAC originally came from)


Er... ANZAC had nothing to do with "matters in this region". In came about because New Zealand didn't have enough troops to form an entire Division, so they lumped us in with the Aussies. Oh. In Europe. Not "this region". And we didn't do it out of choice. The British made us. :mad:






, NZ deliberately did not get dragged into Iraq like Australia was - something Helen Clark had the balls to do that our L'il Johnny didn't.


I like how you applaud us for doing our own thing, while simultaneously criticising Australia for not copying us. Has it ever occured to you that maybe Australia just didn't agree with us re: Iraq?

I mean, is this really so hard to believe? They are Australians, afterall...;)

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Helen Clark


I don't think I've ever seen so much double meaning and irony in two words before. Well played! Very well played.

-Gumboot

[The Atheist]

I don't think I've ever seen so much double meaning and irony in two words before. Well played! Very well played.

-GumbootCheers, only a Kiwi would get that.

[The Atheist]

His "sweeping statements" did seem to me to be about this part of the world, Claus.

See above.

This is with reference to not toadying to major world leaders, Claus. And are you not aware of NZ's deliberate policy of inependent decisions re military responses?

For example, while Australia and NZ usually co-operate very closely in military matters in this region and have done so for a long time (that's where the acronym ANZAC originally came from), NZ deliberately did not get dragged into Iraq like Australia was - something Helen Clark had the balls to do that our L'il Johnny didn't.Cheers, mate!

Couldn't have answered it better myself, or as well in fact - it always carries a bit more weight when others come in and take up the baton. Pretty easy when the other guy's waaaaaay out of his depth.

[The Atheist]

The thing I find hilarious about all this is they're wanting to stage a coup because they claim the government was too lenient on the last people to stage a coup.

Seriously, you can't make this stuff up.I reckon someone threw out Frank's kava. Either that or they gave him something else entirely. Crazy, but mostly harmless.

[CFLarsen]

His "sweeping statements" did seem to me to be about this part of the world, Claus.

When someone says "X, home of Y", they indicate that X is where Y come from.

As in "America, home of the brave".

This is with reference to not toadying to major world leaders, Claus. And are you not aware of NZ's deliberate policy of inependent decisions re military responses?

For example, while Australia and NZ usually co-operate very closely in military matters in this region and have done so for a long time (that's where the acronym ANZAC originally came from), NZ deliberately did not get dragged into Iraq like Australia was - something Helen Clark had the balls to do that our L'il Johnny didn't.

As you can see, TheAtheist was apparently not serious.

In what sense was he wrong about Fijian army leaders (I dare say he knows far more about Fijian army leaders than you)? If you can't actually rebutt his point, then don't butt in.

I am not saying he is wrong about Fijian army leaders. I take issue with his sweeping statements that Fiji is the home of stupid army leaders and racists.

Read your question and his response again and think about pronouns.

Cheers, only a Kiwi would get that.

Very few people on this forum are "Kiwis". Would you care to explain what you meant?

[gumboot]

Very few people on this forum are "Kiwis". Would you care to explain what you meant?


It could really mean all sorts of things.

On the obvious level... the original comment referenced "he" and of course Helen Clark is not a "he" but a "she". But a kiwi may further appreciate this remark as our PM has received some light-hearted flak in the media and general population regarding her "masculine" appearance and demeanour. (To put it politely she's not the most "womanly" of ladies!). For further amusement, her husband has been accursed of being gay! (I'm not sure if that was a "Helen is a man" joke or a serious mud-sling).

To further dwell into local politics, it could be said that while our PM boldly looks out for the nation's interests on the world stage (pressure from the US and others be damned) on the domestic front Helen and her Labour government have had a bit of an agenda frenzy (depending on who you ask, of course).

So the comment has a wide range of different potential interpretations, depending on who you ask, but I think any New Zealander would probably pick up on the many potential interpretations, regardless of their own point of view in the matter.

-Gumboot

[Zep]

I like how you applaud us for doing our own thing, while simultaneously criticising Australia for not copying us. Has it ever occured to you that maybe Australia just didn't agree with us re: Iraq?

I mean, is this really so hard to believe? They are Australians, afterall...;)

-GumbootActually, most of us DID agree with NZ at the time: that we SHOULD have kept the hell out of it right from the start. Only a few, alas our toady political "master" among them, disagreed.

And point taken about ANZAC, technically speaking. I was only referring to it in terms of the close military cooperation we usually share.

[Zep]

When someone says "X, home of Y", they indicate that X is where Y come from.

As in "America, home of the brave".How about "the South Pacific", home of Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, New Caladonia, New Hebrides, New Guinea, etc, etc, etc. Stop thinking of things the size of Denmark, or in the same concept as "Europe", Claus. This is a different region - things work differently here...



As you can see, TheAtheist was apparently not serious.You can't read "NZ", can you! ;) He was being light-hearted, banterish perhaps, encapsulating a local background knowledge in few words, but serious. Gumboot got it, in spades of course. And I think they both understood my reference to "balls" too, indicating I was also aware of some of the nuances of the political situation in NZ. ;)



I am not saying he is wrong about Fijian army leaders. I take issue with his sweeping statements that Fiji is the home of stupid army leaders and racists.ONE stupid army leader, at least, and yes, there are racists in Fiji. And those subsets may indeed have a non-null intersection.

[MG1962]

[QUOTE][Very few people on this forum are "Kiwis". Would you care to explain what you meant?/QUOTE]


Prime Minister Clarke was once described as the world ugliest man

[gumboot]

And point taken about ANZAC, technically speaking. I was only referring to it in terms of the close military cooperation we usually share.


:)

I was being unnecessarily pendantic, in the interests of maintaining disagreement, which I understand to be compulsory in this subforum? ;)

-Gumboot

[The Atheist]

I'm bloody pleased that this thread's lack of seriousness is mirroring the lack of seriousness of the actual situation in Fiji (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10413831)! If they ever do a movie about this coup, I suggest the Keystone Cops could be used as the army.

[The Atheist]

:)

I was being unnecessarily pendantic, in the interests of maintaining disagreement, which I understand to be compulsory in this subforum? ;)

-GumbootNo, mate, that's just a fallacy brought on by reading too many threads which unter is involved in.

Evidence? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65186&highlight=boom)

[gtc]

Cheers, only a Kiwi would get that.

Hey, I think I got that joke too and I've never set foot in NZ. But then, I have watched (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110729/)a lot (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092610/)of NZ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0211875/) TV and (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421318/) movies and listened to a lot of good NZ music (http://www.flyingnun.co.nz/archive_site/bands/chickens/chooks_greedy.html).

[gumboot]

I understand the Fijian PM requested assistance from Australia, and the Aussies refused, claiming it was essentially an invasion.

Kinda makes things mroe interesting...

-Gumboot

[The Atheist]

Hey, I think I got that joke too and I've never set foot in NZ. But then, I have watched (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110729/)a lot (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092610/)of NZ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0211875/) TV and (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421318/) movies and listened to a lot of good NZ music (http://www.flyingnun.co.nz/archive_site/bands/chickens/chooks_greedy.html).
Well, you're clearly a man of taste!

You know that the director of Once Were Warriors got arrested for prostitution - dressed as a woman?

[The Atheist]

I understand the Fijian PM requested assistance from Australia, and the Aussies refused, claiming it was essentially an invasion.

Kinda makes things mroe interesting...

-GumbootAnd there you go, all done at 7 pm NZT (6 am GMT).

No fuss, no muss. Why don't other countries have coups like Fiji. Other places are always so messy, death, destruction, etc. Fiji-style coup, wake up to new government, business as usual. 4 coups and not one shot fired, I think.

[pipelineaudio]

How about "the South Pacific", home of Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, New Caladonia, New Hebrides, New Guinea, etc, etc, etc. Stop thinking of things the size of Denmark, or in the same concept as "Europe", Claus. This is a different region - things work differently here...



You can't read "NZ", can you! ;) He was being light-hearted, banterish perhaps, encapsulating a local background knowledge in few words, but serious. Gumboot got it, in spades of course. And I think they both understood my reference to "balls" too, indicating I was also aware of some of the nuances of the political situation in NZ. ;)



ONE stupid army leader, at least, and yes, there are racists in Fiji. And those subsets may indeed have a non-null intersection.

Just put him on ignore..makes life easier, otherwise you will find yourself having to provide evidence that humans can breath air, the sun is hot, things fall "down" etc....

[DRBUZZ0]

I love Fiji. I learned to scuba dive in Fiji. It's an amazingly awesome place... just don't stay at the big hotels. Stay at the cheap camp/hostile places, because you actually experience the island.

Oh yeah...I once milked a dog in Fiji. It's a long story. A dog came up to me wagging it's tail, on the beach. It must have recently given birth, because it was obviously lactating and so for some reason (without even thinking) as I pet it's head I started to see if a little tug would result in milk discharge.

It seemed like the natural thing to do, but a bunch of European girls I was chilling with at the time seemed to be mega weirded out by it. I'll tell the story later.


Anyways...hope everything turns out ok there.

[a_unique_person]

I understand the Fijian PM requested assistance from Australia, and the Aussies refused, claiming it was essentially an invasion.

Kinda makes things mroe interesting...

-Gumboot

That was weird. We invade to install democracy, but won't invade to defend democracy.

[gumboot]

That was weird. We invade to install democracy, but won't invade to defend democracy.


Yes I wasn't going to say it, but I thought that was a rather hypocritical stance for him to take.

-Gumboot

[CFLarsen]

How about "the South Pacific", home of Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, New Caladonia, New Hebrides, New Guinea, etc, etc, etc. Stop thinking of things the size of Denmark, or in the same concept as "Europe", Claus. This is a different region - things work differently here...

How about stop thinking of things the size of Fiji? :p

You can't read "NZ", can you! ;) He was being light-hearted, banterish perhaps, encapsulating a local background knowledge in few words, but serious. Gumboot got it, in spades of course. And I think they both understood my reference to "balls" too, indicating I was also aware of some of the nuances of the political situation in NZ. ;)

If he is serious, he should answer the questions.

ONE stupid army leader, at least, and yes, there are racists in Fiji. And those subsets may indeed have a non-null intersection.

Ehh...you are missing the point. I'm not saying that there aren't any racists or stupid army commanders in Fiji.

"Home of indigenous racists", "home of stupid army commanders". That doesn't spell "there are racists and SACs in Fiji". That spells "That's where they come from."

Prime Minister Clarke was once described as the world ugliest man

What does that have to do with whether she has an agenda of her own?

Well, you're clearly a man of taste!

You know that the director of Once Were Warriors got arrested for prostitution - dressed as a woman?

Are you going to answer my questions or not?

[The Atheist]

Are you going to answer my questions or not?Yes.

[gumboot]

What does that have to do with whether she has an agenda of her own?


It has to do with whether she has an agenda of his own.

-Gumboot

[CFLarsen]

Yes.
When?
It has to do with whether she has an agenda of his own.

Yes, yes, I get the "She looks like a man" quip. But we are not talking about her looks but her agenda.

[gumboot]

Yes, yes, I get the "She looks like a man" quip. But we are not talking about her looks but her agenda.


I don't think that anyone seriously denies she has an agenda of some form. Atheist was just making a joke.

Yeesh.

-Gumboot

[CFLarsen]

Atheist was just making a joke.

But didn't answer the question.

[gumboot]

But didn't answer the question.


So you still want Atheist to name one politician who doesn't have an agenda of their own?

I'll leave that to Atheist, but I'll go out on a limb here and say "George Bush".

I would maintain Bush isn't allowed to have an Agenda of his own. I think his "agenda" is dictated by others in the Administration (and backing it).

Frankly I'm not sure he's capable of an Agenda of his own.

-Gumboot

[gtc]

"Home of indigenous racists", "home of stupid army commanders". That doesn't spell "there are racists and SACs in Fiji". That spells "That's where they come from."

I think you are the only person in this thread who holds that view.

Name one leader who doesn't have an agenda of his own choosing. Emphasis added by me

Helen Clark


What does that have to do with whether she has an agenda of her own?
For the last time, it was a semi-humourous response with several layers of meaning.

The simplest meaning is that Helen Clark is a woman. She can't have an agenda of 'his' own choosing. More subtler meanings recquire more intimacy with New Zealand.

[CFLarsen]

I think you are the only person in this thread who holds that view.

"X, home of Y" does not mean that Y comes from X.

Gotcha. :rolleyes:

Emphasis added by me

Oh, come on. That's ludicrous. Politicians are, by and large, male. It is pedantry for the sake of being pedant to use such a silly excuse.

For the last time, it was a semi-humourous response with several layers of meaning.

The simplest meaning is that Helen Clark is a woman. She can't have an agenda of 'his' own choosing. More subtler meanings recquire more intimacy with New Zealand.

For the last time, I know it was a semi-humourous response. It did not answer the question, though.

[gtc]

I don't think you do understand

In my experience, X home of Y does not mean that all Y come from X, it merely means that Y is common in X.

Oh, come on. That's ludicrous. Politicians are, by and large, male. It is pedantry for the sake of being pedant to use such a silly excuse

There was no excuse. I was explaining a joke. Many jokes are based on pedantry.

Finally, no one owes you an answer to your questions. That said, I wonder if you can demonstrate that Morris Iemma, Don Brash, Steve Bracks and Helen Clark each have personal agendas of their own.

[The Atheist]

When?What on Earth do you mean, when? Go check the question I answered "YES" to.

[The Atheist]

Oh, it just keeps getting better!

Having had his trusty GP sworn in as Prime Minister (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10414239), all I can say is, thank god, Bainimarama hasn't got a horse.

[gumboot]

That said, I wonder if you can demonstrate that Morris Iemma, Don Brash, Steve Bracks and Helen Clark each have personal agendas of their own.


I don't think Don Brash has an agenda any more.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Oh, it just keeps getting better!

Having had his trusty GP sworn in as Prime Minister (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10414239), all I can say is, thank god, Bainimarama hasn't got a horse.



Eeek!

And what is with the Doctor/Officer's comments that he knows it's all illegal but has no choice since he was given orders?

WTF?

What sort of bollix military training do they give in Fiji? Only following lawful orders is military training 101.

From the article you liked to the situation seems far more serious than I realised. Appointing subordinates to key positions of authority? Suppressing all dissent? Censorship?

This could get ugly.

-Gumboot

[The Atheist]

From the article you liked to the situation seems far more serious than I realised. Appointing subordinates to key positions of authority? Suppressing all dissent? Censorship?

This could get ugly.

-GumbootAgree.

Rabuka was a pretty cheerful and honest sort of bloke, he just didn't want the Indians running the place. Bainimarama seems to be completely off his rocker.

[a_unique_person]

I'm tipping there will be cheap holidays to Fiji on offer very soon. The odds of getting caught up in violence there are pretty small.

[The Atheist]

I'm tipping there will be cheap holidays to Fiji on offer very soon. The odds of getting caught up in violence there are pretty small.Correct. The outer islands probably know nothing about it. No big deal to them. "What happens in Suva, stays in Suva."

Just make sure you fly in to Nadi.

[Zep]

I understand the Fijian PM requested assistance from Australia, and the Aussies refused, claiming it was essentially an invasion.

Kinda makes things mroe interesting...

-Gumboot:mad: :o

Our PM WILL invade Iraq when we aren't asked, but WON'T invade Fiji when we are asked.

Hypocritical pillock.

ETA: Beaten to the punch...line.

[Zep]

Just put him on ignore..makes life easier, otherwise you will find yourself having to provide evidence that humans can breath air, the sun is hot, things fall "down" etc....He is being educated. The taking in of that knowledge is the responsibility of the student to ensure. Don't you think?

[Zep]

So you still want Atheist to name one politician who doesn't have an agenda of their own?

I'll leave that to Atheist, but I'll go out on a limb here and say "George Bush".

I would maintain Bush isn't allowed to have an Agenda of his own. I think his "agenda" is dictated by others in the Administration (and backing it).

Frankly I'm not sure he's capable of an Agenda of his own.

-GumbootAnd only when it comes through his radio earpiece...

[Zep]

Eeek!

And what is with the Doctor/Officer's comments that he knows it's all illegal but has no choice since he was given orders?

WTF?

What sort of bollix military training do they give in Fiji? Only following lawful orders is military training 101.

From the article you liked to the situation seems far more serious than I realised. Appointing subordinates to key positions of authority? Suppressing all dissent? Censorship?

This could get ugly.

-GumbootMy Fiji contact here informs me that this coup-commodore is actually a school drop-out and a bit of a thick-head. So I suspect his grasp of higher logic, proper legal protocol (in a coup? C'mon!), and basic thinking ahead is minimal. He was given the rank of Commodore in the Fijian Navy (think "dugouts") purely because he was a younger son in one of the chiefly families. And now he has got airs above his station, it seems.

Also, commentary comming back from Fiji says the military is splitting for and against this man. He may not have their full support after all. In which case there may be a counter-coup in the not too distant future. Wonder if we will notice...?

[The Atheist]

Our PM WILL invade Iraq when we aren't asked, but WON'T invade Fiji when we are asked.You were asked to go into Iraq alright, but not by the Iraqi government.

Let me see:

"Let's go to Iraq! Free trade agreement with USA; ongoing development and reconstruction work. Dollars! Dollars! Dollars!"

"Let's go to Fiji. No win situation, taking on well-armed, highly efficient bush fighters in their own backyard while causing no casualties to the citizens."

I think Howard committing to Fiji would have been dumber than Iraq, personally. Fiji is not east Timor. No bunch of poorly-trained semi-militia; Fiji's army is large, well-disciplined and pretty near all of the grunts have international/UN experience. Fijian tropical jungles + Fijian Army = Deep s##t.

[a_unique_person]

He doesn't, as the appointments he has made show. No one wants to be associated with the coup, given that many of those involved with the last one wound up in prison.

[The Atheist]

Also, commentary comming back from Fiji says the military is splitting for and against this man. He may not have their full support after all. In which case there may be a counter-coup in the not too distant future. Wonder if we will notice...?

Yes. The army may have the guns, but the chiefs have the loyalty. If enough officers disagree with Bainimarama due to advice from their chiefs, he'll be gone by lunchtime. They'd need to have an overwhelming majority, because if it turns into a fire-fight, it will be very messy.

Do we know if Bainimarama's a boozer at all?

[CFLarsen]

I don't think you do understand

In my experience, X home of Y does not mean that all Y come from X, it merely means that Y is common in X.

Very well: Is Y more common in X than other places? It would have to be, because otherwise "X, home of Y" is a vacuous statement.

Finally, no one owes you an answer to your questions.

Of course not.

That said, I wonder if you can demonstrate that Morris Iemma, Don Brash, Steve Bracks and Helen Clark each have personal agendas of their own.

They are politicians. That means that, by default, they have personal agendas of their own.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that they are saints.

What on Earth do you mean, when? Go check the question I answered "YES" to.

I asked you if you were going to answer my questions. You said "Yes". Where are your answers?

[gtc]

According to the Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/poll-two-years-off-in-couphit-fiji/2006/12/07/1165081075160.html), elections could be 2 years off.

The best quote from the article is this one:
"I warn the Australian and New Zealand prime ministers to stay out of our business and to respect the sovereignty of the Fiji islands," said Dr Senilagakali.

Dr Senilagakali said Fiji would seek assistance from Asian economies such as Indonesia, and rivals Taiwan and China to circumvent sanctions, just as it did following the coups in 1987.

Because those countries will respect Fijian sovereignty so much better than Australia or NZ.

Finally, if Fiji has been a republic for nearly 20 years, why do they still use the Union Jack on their flags, why do they have the Queen on their currency and why are their army barracks named after her?

[gtc]

Very well: Is Y more common in X than other places? It would have to be, because otherwise "X, home of Y" is a vacuous statement.

And therefore by implication, he should have shown that poor army leaders were more common in Fiji than elsewhere before using the statement.

How do you square this admirable approach to evidentially sound statements with your ability to casually sling around such statements as

They are politicians. That means that, by default, they have personal agendas of their own.

By the by, I still disagree with your definition but I think he can show that Fijian army leaders are less effective than their counterparts in Australia, New Zealand, the USA, France and the UK (they being the major existing and previous military powers in the region) which would satisfy your standard of proof for his statement.

I also note your inability to demonstrate any knowledge of Pacific politics or the Fijian military. Your only contribution to this thread has been to derail the conversation.

What do you know of Helen Clark's agenda? Lets keep it simple, we can get to Morris Iemma shortly.

[Zep]

You were asked to go into Iraq alright, but not by the Iraqi government.That is, we weren't asked at all.

Let me see:

"Let's go to Iraq! Free trade agreement with USA; ongoing development and reconstruction work. Dollars! Dollars! Dollars!"

"Let's go to Fiji. No win situation, taking on well-armed, highly efficient bush fighters in their own backyard while causing no casualties to the citizens."

I think Howard committing to Fiji would have been dumber than Iraq, personally. Fiji is not east Timor. No bunch of poorly-trained semi-militia; Fiji's army is large, well-disciplined and pretty near all of the grunts have international/UN experience. Fijian tropical jungles + Fijian Army = Deep s##t.True! :D Right decision, but probably for the wrong reasons.

[The Atheist]

Very well: Is Y more common in X than other places? It would have to be, because otherwise "X, home of Y" is a vacuous statement.Mate, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're arguing colloquial English usage with a bunch of Australasians. Even as the unter skeptic, I bet that's not one of your specialist subjects.

As usual, you aren't allowing being completely and utterly out of your depth to bother you.

carry on....
They are politicians. That means that, by default, they have personal agendas of their own.Evidence?
Unless, of course, you want to argue that they are saints.Have you ever met our Prime Minister, St. Helen Clark of Mount Albert?
I asked you if you were going to answer my questions. You said "Yes". Where are your answers?No, unter, let me correct you. You asked:
Are you going to answer my questions or not?To which I quite correctly replied, "Yes".

Work it out for yourself.

[The Atheist]

Finally, if Fiji has been a republic for nearly 20 years, why do they still use the Union Jack on their flags, why do they have the Queen on their currency and why are their army barracks named after her?Same reason they're still in the Commonwealth and why the Zimbos play test cricket.

Only whiteys are racist. Didn't you know that?

[CFLarsen]

And therefore by implication, he should have shown that poor army leaders were more common in Fiji than elsewhere before using the statement.

But he hasn't.

How do you square this admirable approach to evidentially sound statements with your ability to casually sling around such statements as

Because that's what politics is all about. People become politicians, because they have a certain idea of what society should look like. Of course, nobody is entirely happy (a very basic human trait), so there are naturally some things they want to change. Some focus on immigration, some on the economy, some on social development, some on foreign policy.

The point is, all politicians have their own little pet issues, which they burn for, more than other issues.

By the by, I still disagree with your definition but I think he can show that Fijian army leaders are less effective than their counterparts in Australia, New Zealand, the USA, France and the UK (they being the major existing and previous military powers in the region) which would satisfy your standard of proof for his statement.

Then, he should do so.

I also note your inability to demonstrate any knowledge of Pacific politics or the Fijian military. Your only contribution to this thread has been to derail the conversation.

Thank you for your opinion.

What do you know of Helen Clark's agenda? Lets keep it simple, we can get to Morris Iemma shortly.

Explained above: She is a politician. If you disagree, let's hear your arguments.

[CFLarsen]

Mate, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're arguing colloquial English usage with a bunch of Australasians. Even as the unter skeptic, I bet that's not one of your specialist subjects.

As usual, you aren't allowing being completely and utterly out of your depth to bother you.

Very well: You tell me I am not using colloquial English correctly. Educate me, then. Where do I go wrong in my misunderstanding of "X, home of Y"?

Does it mean that Y happens equally everywhere, regardless of whether it is X or some other place?

Evidence?

If you don't think that is what politics is about, let's hear your arguments.

Have you ever met our Prime Minister, St. Helen Clark of Mount Albert?

No. What does that have to do with anything?

No, unter, let me correct you. You asked:
To which I quite correctly replied, "Yes".

Work it out for yourself.

No answers from you, then.

[gtc]

Larsen.

This whole thread has been about the actions of the Fijian military and their effect on the nation of Fiji.

During this thread I have learnt much about Fiji from people whose views I often disagree with (AUP in particular).

It has been demonstrated that Fiji has been beset by military leaders who:
1) tend to interefere in internal politics,
2) interefere to the detriment of Fiji,
3) do not know their duty to follow lawful and only lawful instructions
4) aim to protect Fijian sovereignty by selling that sovereignty out

This is ample evidence to support the assertion that Fiji has poor military leadership.

Instead of accepting this evidence, or arguing it on its merits, you have diverted the discussion to semantics, with absolutely no reference to any of the issues under discussion.

It is ludicrous to suggest that it has not been shown that Fijian military leaders are relatively worse than other military leaders.

It is ludicrous to suggest that The Atheist's statement implied anything more than Fiji has stupid military leaders and racist indigenous folk. That is all the statement really means.

[The Atheist]

Larsen.

It is ludicrous ....(snipped all over the place)...

It is ludicrous ....You find yourself thinking like that a lot? I do.

[gtc]

You find yourself thinking like that a lot? I do.

Define 'a lot'.

Prove that you think he is more ludicrous than anyone else, lets hear your arguments.

:D

[CFLarsen]

Larsen.

This whole thread has been about the actions of the Fijian military and their effect on the nation of Fiji.

During this thread I have learnt much about Fiji from people whose views I often disagree with (AUP in particular).

It has been demonstrated that Fiji has been beset by military leaders who:
1) tend to interefere in internal politics,
2) interefere to the detriment of Fiji,
3) do not know their duty to follow lawful and only lawful instructions
4) aim to protect Fijian sovereignty by selling that sovereignty out

This is ample evidence to support the assertion that Fiji has poor military leadership.

Instead of accepting this evidence,

Whoa. Where have I not accepted this evidence?

or arguing it on its merits, you have diverted the discussion to semantics, with absolutely no reference to any of the issues under discussion.

It is ludicrous to suggest that it has not been shown that Fijian military leaders are relatively worse than other military leaders.

Compared to what? We don't know. TheAtheist refuse to explain.

It is ludicrous to suggest that The Atheist's statement implied anything more than Fiji has stupid military leaders and racist indigenous folk. That is all the statement really means.

So, "X, home of Y" is a vacuous statement. Thank you.

[The Atheist]

Very well: You tell me I am not using colloquial English correctly. Educate me, then. Where do I go wrong in my misunderstanding of "X, home of Y"?

Does it mean that Y happens equally everywhere, regardless of whether it is X or some other place?No, unter, it works like this:

X = your knowledge of a particular subject.

Y = the knowledge of an ant in the same subject.

Y>X

Got that?

Just for future reference, please note that all of the respondents to this thread, other than you, have no issue with what I first said. Accordingly, since their opinions matter and yours don't, I shall continue to ignore your questions/suppositions about it.
If you don't think that is what politics is about, let's hear your arguments.Silly unter. You know how it works: you make a statement, YOU provide the evidence. I don't provide evidence to dispell your assertions, you provide evidence to back them up.

Got that?
No. What does that have to do with anything?If you had met her, you'd understand both why she's now St. Helen Clark of Mt Albert and why she has no personal agenda. Unfortunately, the only evidence available can be gained by meeting with her, so I suggest a trip to NZ if you need evidence for that.
No answers from you, then.

see, not only don't you understand colloquial use of English, you don't even understand everyday usage. I'm not berating you for that - I bet you speak more languages than me and I can guarantee your English is better than my Danish. (But I advise against betting on pastry - I can cook.) What you did originally, I repeat, was to ask this:
Are you going to answer my questions or not?
Unfortunately, that is actually two questions in one.

You are asking:

"Are you going to answer?"

But you're also asking:

"Are you not going to answer?"

I gave you the simple answer "yes".

By now, you should be able to figure out which question I was answering, and how.

Cheers

[Carnivore]

Got that?
If you had met her, you'd understand both why she's now St. Helen Clark of Mt Albert and why she has no personal agenda. Unfortunately, the only evidence available can be gained by meeting with her, so I suggest a trip to NZ if you need evidence for that.



I've met her. I'm afraid I don't quite understand why she is St Helen of Mt Albert and why she has no personal agenda. Could you explain? Thanks!

[CFLarsen]

No, unter, it works like this:

X = your knowledge of a particular subject.

Y = the knowledge of an ant in the same subject.

Y>X

Got that?

Just for future reference, please note that all of the respondents to this thread, other than you, have no issue with what I first said. Accordingly, since their opinions matter and yours don't, I shall continue to ignore your questions/suppositions about it.
Silly unter. You know how it works: you make a statement, YOU provide the evidence. I don't provide evidence to dispell your assertions, you provide evidence to back them up.

Got that?
If you had met her, you'd understand both why she's now St. Helen Clark of Mt Albert and why she has no personal agenda. Unfortunately, the only evidence available can be gained by meeting with her, so I suggest a trip to NZ if you need evidence for that.


see, not only don't you understand colloquial use of English, you don't even understand everyday usage. I'm not berating you for that - I bet you speak more languages than me and I can guarantee your English is better than my Danish. (But I advise against betting on pastry - I can cook.) What you did originally, I repeat, was to ask this:

Unfortunately, that is actually two questions in one.

You are asking:

"Are you going to answer?"

But you're also asking:

"Are you not going to answer?"

I gave you the simple answer "yes".

By now, you should be able to figure out which question I was answering, and how.

Cheers

Do you honestly think that such juvenile argumentation is effective?

[Darth Rotor]

Cheers, only a Kiwi would get that.
I think I got it.

Originally Posted by CFLarsen
Name one leader who doesn't have an agenda of his own choosing.

Helen Clark
Helen is a her.

Do I win a pint, or am I way out to lunch?

ETA: Oops, I just saw a bunch of posts that didn't load last time, the answer was provided.

My browser's, and my, bad.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Do we know if Bainimarama's a boozer at all?
He may or may not be, but his appointee seems to be on something unusual.

He told ABC radio: "There's no doubt about it… It is an illegal takeover." But he said as a member of the military he had to accept his new post.

"Whatever the commander tells me to do, I have no choice but to do it," he said.

"I have this conviction that I have been called by divine authority to do something for the people of Fiji. I will continue until I clean out the mess in Fiji."
I am still trying to wrap my brain around that and find rationality.

I am of the opinion that the sanctions imposed on Fiji have been in the works for some years, due to Vijay Singh's winning so many golf tournaments. Finally, an excuse to strike back! :p GHW Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, used to be President of the USGA.

Coincidence? I think not!

Yes, my golf cap has a tin foil lining, why do you ask? :D

DR

[The Atheist]

Do you honestly think that such juvenile argumentation is effective?Appears to be - you didn't repeat any of your inane questions.

I have this rule about answering idiocy with an even deeper idiocy.

You've surely heard the old catch-phrase, "Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience." I can do idiot better than most idiots, I come from a very long line of idiots.

Your move. (If you must, otherwise you could sit back and go post somewhere your invaluable cries of "Evidence" are needed. Try CT, maybe.)

[The Atheist]

I've met her. I'm afraid I don't quite understand why she is St Helen of Mt Albert and why she has no personal agenda. Could you explain? Thanks!She is the mother of our nation.

We mere mortals have no idea how to raise children. We need the guidance of St Helen's steady hand; only she saves us from our own stupidity. How dare we think that we know what's best for our children? Crikey, left to our own devices, we might teach our children our own warped view of the world - things like free markets and capitalism, or that mum or dad can stay home and look after the kids and not feel guilty about it, or that child-raising is a necessary and worthwhile part of society. Such selflessness as St Helen's is impossible to grow from a personal agenda, and indeed hers isn't, it's straight out of a deceased NZ PM's manifesto - Michael Joseph Savage. Only a childless woman of pure devotion could act as does our St Helen.

The Mount Albert is just her electorate and where she lives.

[Zep]

"...And the sound of te awamutu
Had a truly sacred ring..." ;)

[The Atheist]

I am of the opinion that the sanctions imposed on Fiji have been in the works for some years, due to Vijay Singh's winning so many golf tournaments. Finally, an excuse to strike back! :p GHW Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, used to be President of the USGA.

Coincidence? I think not!

Yes, my golf cap has a tin foil lining, why do you ask? :D

DRDamn, I'd never thought of that.

Good point!

[The Atheist]

And just to get back to actual coup, things aren't going too well for Bainimarama.

the Council of Chiefs have already spurned a meeting with him. Their support is essential and Baini-boy hasn't got it.

I give him a week. Power vacuum, anyone?

[Darth Rotor]

Power vacuum, anyone?
This begs for a "Bainimarama sucks" line.

Consider it delivered. :)
DR

[Zep]

And just to get back to actual coup, things aren't going too well for Bainimarama.

the Council of Chiefs have already spurned a meeting with him. Their support is essential and Baini-boy hasn't got it.

I give him a week. Power vacuum, anyone?I'll refer you to a post of mine yesterday about the possibility of a counter-coup. If the chiefs won't entertain his presence, he's going to find it hard to keep the job! I think he'd better start picking out his island prison now...

[The Atheist]

This begs for a "Bainimarama sucks" line.

Consider it delivered. :)
DRThat's the sort of thing this subject deserves! Nice one.

[The Atheist]

I'll refer you to a post of mine yesterday about the possibility of a counter-coup. If the chiefs won't entertain his presence, he's going to find it hard to keep the job! I think he'd better start picking out his island prison now...Yeah, I just don't know enough about the Fijian army to know quite how they'd go about it, but if Baini-boy's the boss, the others may not be too smart.

I don't know whether Rabuka's trial is still on, but he's the logical arse-kicker.

[gumboot]

I am still trying to wrap my brain around that and find rationality.


New Zealand always has a goodly number of Fijian officers being trained by our military - when the coup started we expelled them all. Given the newly raised PM's opinions on "just following orders" I dearly hope he wasn't one of the ones we trained!

-Gumboot

[The Atheist]

New Zealand always has a goodly number of Fijian officers being trained by our military - when the coup started we expelled them all. Given the newly raised PM's opinions on "just following orders" I dearly hope he wasn't one of the ones we trained!

-GumbootOops. (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425824/915125)

[gumboot]

Oops. (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425824/915125)


Oh dear. :faint:

-Gumboot

[Carnivore]

She is the mother of our nation.

We mere mortals have no idea how to raise children. We need the guidance of St Helen's steady hand; only she saves us from our own stupidity. How dare we think that we know what's best for our children? Crikey, left to our own devices, we might teach our children our own warped view of the world - things like free markets and capitalism, or that mum or dad can stay home and look after the kids and not feel guilty about it, or that child-raising is a necessary and worthwhile part of society. Such selflessness as St Helen's is impossible to grow from a personal agenda, and indeed hers isn't, it's straight out of a deceased NZ PM's manifesto - Michael Joseph Savage. Only a childless woman of pure devotion could act as does our St Helen.

The Mount Albert is just her electorate and where she lives.

Thank you for explaining.

[The Atheist]

Unexplained gunfire today at army barracks (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10414603).

Meanwhile, opposition to the coup is coming from all directions - the church, the Great Council of Chiefs, teachers - Baini-boy's running out of friends. At least he still has all the guns...

[a_unique_person]

He's in hiding now. Might have to find a deep dark place to hide well enough.

[Zep]

Don't worry - they will find him...

And I suspect his mob doesn't "have all the guns" at all. If I read the reports correctly, they only picked up the ones fron a few locations in Suva...there's quite possibly a whole lot more in Lautoka, Nadi, and on the other islands. PLUS there appears to be a large military faction, armed, who are not "on his side".

[gtc]

Friday's Australian had an interesting angle on another possible reason for the coup.

Two junior members of the army (supporters of the Speight coup) were beaten to death and the investigation was starting to ask about what Bainimarama knew.

No Fijian government, no investigation.

[The Atheist]

Friday's Australian had an interesting angle on another possible reason for the coup.

Two junior members of the army (supporters of the Speight coup) were beaten to death and the investigation was starting to ask about what Bainimarama knew.

No Fijian government, no investigation.That is an interesting one - there's clearly some very bad blood between Baini-boy (they call him Bananarama on the radio) and Speight.

[Zep]

I propose... A DEATH MATCH! IN THE OCTAGON RING! BEINI-BOY (100kg) VS GENTLEMAN SPEIGHT (80kg). ONLY ONE GETS OUT...ALIVE!