Is this AA77 or what is it?

[Bell]

http://hereisnewyork.org/ has a picture in the Pentagon section showing an airplane flying over DC (here (http://hereisnewyork.org//jpegs/photos/8137.jpg)).

Does anybody knows when this picture was taken? Why is in in this archive?

BTW, I guess it is DC. Can anybody identify the landscape?

[Roger_Harris]

Well, it can't be AA77, since it did the loop thing just before it got to the Potomac.

It could be an old picture, I think. There is an old railroad bridge across the Potomac that looks something like that, but today anyway, you would see a Metro bridge and the 14th Street bridges just beyond and parallel to it. (The Metro bridge was built in the early 80s; not sure about the 14th Street bridges but they were there when I moved to the area in 1960.) And the area looks a little underdeveloped; I think you should be able to see highrises in the Rosalyn area, in the distance on the right. If it is an old picture of that railway bridge, then I think the Pentagon should (possibly) be seen in the extreme left of that picture, but I don't see it

[gumboot]

http://hereisnewyork.org/ has a picture in the Pentagon section showing an airplane flying over DC (here (http://hereisnewyork.org//jpegs/photos/8137.jpg)).

Does anybody knows when this picture was taken? Why is in in this archive?

BTW, I guess it is DC. Can anybody identify the landscape?



That aircraft appears to have it landing gear down. And it looks to me like a much smaller aircraft, perhaps a 737. Note the size of the engines comparative with the fuselage, and size of the tailfin relative to wingspan.

-Gumboot

[Skibum]

It doesn't look like any bridge I recognize in the DC area. Are you sure its not a bridge around NY?

Looks similar to the Tappan Zee bridge, but I don't think it is.

[Roger_Harris]

It doesn't look like any bridge I recognize in the DC area. Are you sure its not a bridge around NY?

Not sure at all, but this is the old railroad bridge it reminded me of, just southeast of the 14th St bridges and the Metro Yellow Line, and it is near the Pentagon. But as I said, it would have to be a pretty old photo not to show those other bridges -- maybe from about the time the Pentagon was built. If so, then the plane would have to be an old prop airliner like a DC-3 or so, and it's hard to tell from that photo.

http://opendb.com/images/14thStBridge.jpg

[Bell]

That aircraft appears to have it landing gear down. And it looks to me like a much smaller aircraft, perhaps a 737. Note the size of the engines comparative with the fuselage, and size of the tailfin relative to wingspan.

-Gumboot

I thought it looked like landing gear, but wasn't sure, because of the size of the picture. Well, I have no clue why that picture is in there :confused:

[firecoins]

edited

[firecoins]

It doesn't look like any bridge I recognize in the DC area. Are you sure its not a bridge around NY?

Looks similar to the Tappan Zee bridge, but I don't think it is.
I live by the Tappan Zee bridge. It isn't it.

Picture in Question
http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/showbig.asp?photoID=8137
versus
Tappan Zee Bridge
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.ibsys.com/ny/images/weather/auto/tappan_640x480.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wnbc.com/wxcam/1210193/detail.html&h=480&w=640&sz=77&hl=en&sig2=c7ybAqmMD3jBn127V69lWA&start=3&tbnid=_xl2k2p7mpx6bM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&ei=vzd0RaisApK6iQGM8YHCDg&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTappan%2BZee%2BBridge%26svnum%3D10%26 hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DISO-8859-1

[Kryptos]

http://hereisnewyork.org/ has a picture in the Pentagon section showing an airplane flying over DC (here (http://hereisnewyork.org//jpegs/photos/8137.jpg)).

Does anybody knows when this picture was taken? Why is in in this archive?

BTW, I guess it is DC. Can anybody identify the landscape?

Very odd... The strip of land appears to be East Potomac Park and Haines Point.

Though, the Charles R. Fenwick Bridge (carries Metro's Yellow Line), which is adjacent to the railroad bridge and was built in 1983, is missing from that picture.

The Arland D. Williams Jr. Memorial Bridge (northbound span of the 14th Street Bridge), was built in 1950 and is located just upstream from the Fenwick (Metro) bridge. It is also missing from the picture.

Anyway, here's the flight path for American Airlines Flight 77, which did not fly over the Potomac River:

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/thumb/b/b3/Aa77_dc_flight_path.jpg/500px-Aa77_dc_flight_path.jpg

[Skeptic4Sure]

Anyway, here's the flight path for American Airlines Flight 77, which did not fly over the Potomac River:

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/thumb/b/b3/Aa77_dc_flight_path.jpg/500px-Aa77_dc_flight_path.jpg


Gee, you sure about that? These accounts seem to contradict that "official" NTSB flight path.


Ken Ford’s account not only mentions seeing this plane through binoculars, but seeing it fly in a flight path completely opposite to the official one…

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg)
(it) “flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building.”
Sounds like he places the plane near Washington DC . He’s not the only one…


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg%C2%A0)
Joseph Candelario…(At Ft. McNair) “I went outside to the river to take a break. As I was looking across the river towards the direction of the Pentagon, I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it.”

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg)
Army Brig. Gen Clyde A. Vaughn…“it looked like it was loitering over Georgetown , in a high, left-hand bank," he said. "That may have been the plane… Georgetown is a sector of the District of Columbia … Commercial aircraft that are either approaching or departing from nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport do not fly over Georgetown ”… A few minutes later, Vaughn witnessed the craft's impact.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg)
Joe Hurst… At the Oval Room restaurant at Lafayette Square "I saw it go overhead, the plane."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg)
Lt. Col. Stuart Artman…walking near the Washington Monument "I saw the plane that hit the Pentagon. It went behind some trees."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg)
Scott Cook… fifth floor of the Portals building, at 1280 Maryland Avenue SW , Washington DC … “Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon.”

[chipmunk stew]

Gee, you sure about that? These accounts seem to contradict that "official" NTSB flight path.


Ken Ford’s account not only mentions seeing this plane through binoculars, but seeing it fly in a flight path completely opposite to the official one…

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg)
(it) “flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building.”
Sounds like he places the plane near Washington DC . He’s not the only one…


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg%C2%A0)
Joseph Candelario…(At Ft. McNair) “I went outside to the river to take a break. As I was looking across the river towards the direction of the Pentagon, I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it.”

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg)
Army Brig. Gen Clyde A. Vaughn…“it looked like it was loitering over Georgetown , in a high, left-hand bank," he said. "That may have been the plane… Georgetown is a sector of the District of Columbia … Commercial aircraft that are either approaching or departing from nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport do not fly over Georgetown ”… A few minutes later, Vaughn witnessed the craft's impact.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg)
Joe Hurst… At the Oval Room restaurant at Lafayette Square "I saw it go overhead, the plane."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg)
Lt. Col. Stuart Artman…walking near the Washington Monument "I saw the plane that hit the Pentagon. It went behind some trees."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg)
Scott Cook… fifth floor of the Portals building, at 1280 Maryland Avenue SW , Washington DC … “Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon.”
Whoa......

There were SIX PLANES!!???!?!!??!!?

[Skeptic4Sure]

Yeah come on, didn't you know that? You guys are supposed to know everything.

[Kryptos]

That may have been the plane… Or maybe not.

Georgetown is a sector of the District of Columbia … Commercial aircraft that are either approaching or departing from nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport do not fly over Georgetown ”… Yes they DO!

[Pardalis]

Yeah come on, didn't you know that? You guys are supposed to know everything.

"We" don't know everything, just that you're a troll. That's about all "we" need to know.

Please remain courteous.

[Kryptos]

Gee, you sure about that? These accounts seem to contradict that "official" NTSB flight path.


Ken Ford’s account not only mentions seeing this plane through binoculars, but seeing it fly in a flight path completely opposite to the official one…

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg)
(it) “flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building.”
Sounds like he places the plane near Washington DC . He’s not the only one…


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg%C2%A0)
Joseph Candelario…(At Ft. McNair) “I went outside to the river to take a break. As I was looking across the river towards the direction of the Pentagon, I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it.”

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg)
Army Brig. Gen Clyde A. Vaughn…“it looked like it was loitering over Georgetown , in a high, left-hand bank," he said. "That may have been the plane… Georgetown is a sector of the District of Columbia … Commercial aircraft that are either approaching or departing from nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport do not fly over Georgetown ”… A few minutes later, Vaughn witnessed the craft's impact.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg)
Joe Hurst… At the Oval Room restaurant at Lafayette Square "I saw it go overhead, the plane."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg)
Lt. Col. Stuart Artman…walking near the Washington Monument "I saw the plane that hit the Pentagon. It went behind some trees."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg)
Scott Cook… fifth floor of the Portals building, at 1280 Maryland Avenue SW , Washington DC … “Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon.”



KenFord.jpg:

This is pretty incredible to make that sharp of a turn over that small of an area!

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg


And contradicts the dozens of folks who saw the plane come up over I-395, Washington Boulevard, and Columbia Pike, such as

Christopher Munsey, who was en route to work on I-395, "Already dumbfounded by the first, sketchy radio reports of the catastrophic attack on the World Trade Center towers in New York, I couldn’t believe what I was now seeing to my right: A silver, twin-engine American Airlines jetliner gliding almost noiselessly over the Navy Annex, fast, low and straight toward the Pentagon, just hundreds of yards away. It was a nightmare coming to life. The plane, with red and blue markings, hurtled by and within moments exploded in a ground-shaking “whoomp,” as it appeared to hit the side of the Pentagon. A huge flash of orange flame and black smoke poured into the sky. Smoke seemed to change from black to white, forming a billowing column in the sky."

John O’Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication, "I was going up Interstate 395, up Washington Boulevard, listening to the radio, to the news, to WTOP, and from my left side, I don’t know whether I saw or heard it first -- this silver plane; I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet, it came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I’d just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, ‘That’s not going to make it to National Airport.’ And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black thick smoke. The eeriest thing about it, was that it was like you were watching a movie. There was no huge explosion, no huge rumbling on ground, it just went ‘pfff.’ It wasn’t what I would have expected for a plane that was not much more than a football field away from me. The first thing I did was pull over onto the shoulder, and when I got out of the car I saw another plane flying over my head, and it scared ...me, because I knew there had been two planes that hit the World Trade Center. And I started jogging up the ramp to get as far away as possible. Then the plane -- it looked like a C-130 cargo plane -- started turning away from the Pentagon, it did a complete turnaround. There was nothing to see but black. The whole side of Washington Boulevard was black and on fire. I lost all sense of time. I think I was standing outside a good 20 minutes or so, and then, it was just 10 minutes until I got to the Memorial Bridge, which was closed, so I went up the GW Parkway and to a friend’s house."

Ann Krug, from Hoffman-Boston Elementary School off of Columbia Pike. Her kindergarten class saw the plane crash outside the classroom's window. "I actually pointed it out and said: 'Look at this plane; look at how low it's flying,' " Krug recalled. "And then we all saw it come down."

Just to name a few...

And here's Scott Cook's quote taken in context:

Scott Cook - We didn’t know what kind of plane had hit the Pentagon, or where it had hit. Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon. I cannot fathom why neither myself nor Ray, a former Air Force officer, missed a big 757, going 400 miles an hour, as it crossed in front of our window in its last 10 seconds of flight. - http://www.clothmonkey.com/91101.htm

[Belz...]

"Skeptic"4"Sure" ??

[Skeptic4Sure]

Or maybe not.

Yes they DO!



Kate,

If Clyde is the only one you can take issue with, then I am doing my job.

But you might have an issue with your vice-president and the Dulles ATC...



VICE PRES. CHENEY: they had received a report that an airplane was headed for the White House.
MR. RUSSERT: This is Flight 77, which had left Dulles.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Which turned out to be Flight 77. It left Dulles, flown west towards Ohio , been captured by the terrorists. They turned off the transponder, which led to a later report that a plane had gone down in Ohio , but it really hadn't. Of course, then they turned back and headed back towards Washington . As best we can tell, they came initially at the White House and...
MR. RUSSERT: The plane actually circled the White House?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Didn't circle it, but was headed on a track into it. The Secret Service has an arrangement with the F.A.A. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was...
MR. RUSSERT: Tracking it by radar.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: And when it entered the danger zone and looked like it was headed for the White House was when they grabbed me and evacuated me to the basement. The plane obviously didn't hit the White House. It turned away and, we think, flew a circle and came back in and then hit the Pentagon. And that's what the radar track looks like.



And if that isn’t bad enough, look at what early news reports from Dulles ATC and "radar" told us…


Radar tracks Flight 77 as it closes within 30 miles of Washington . [CBS News, 9/21/2001] Todd Lewis, flight controller at Washington’s Dulles Airport, later recalls, “... my colleagues saw a target moving quite fast from the northwest to the southeast. So she—we all started watching that target, and she notified the supervisor. However, nobody knew that was a commercial flight at the time. Nobody knew that was American 77. ... I thought it was a military flight.” [MSNBC, 9/11/2002]

Another account is similar, saying that just before 9:30 a.m., a Dulles Airport controller sees an aircraft without a transponder traveling almost 500 mph headed toward Washington . [ USA Today, 8/13/2002] In yet another account, Danielle O’Brien, the Dulles flight controller said to be the first to spot the blip, claims she doesn’t spot it until it is around 12 to 14 miles from Washington . [ABC News, 10/24/2001; ABC News, 10/24/2001]

(9:33-9:37 a.m.): Eyewitness Reports Indicate There Was No Loss of Control on Flight 77 Radar data shows Flight 77 crossing the Capitol Beltway and headed toward the Pentagon. However, the plane, flying more than 400 mph, is too high when it nears the Pentagon at 9:35 a.m., crossing the Pentagon at about 7,000 feet up. [CBS News, 9/21/2001; Boston Globe, 11/23/2001] The plane then makes a difficult high-speed descending turn. It makes a “downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn is so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there [is] no fight for control going on.” [CBS News, 9/21/2001]

Before 9:37 a.m.): Flight 77 Turns, Then Disappears from Radar Washington flight controllers are watching Flight 77’s radar blip. Just before radar contact is lost, FAA headquarters is told, “The aircraft is circling. It’s turning away from the White House.” [ USA Today, 8/13/2002] Then the blip disappears. Its last known position is six miles from the Pentagon and four miles from the White House. The plane is said to be traveling 500 mph, or a mile every seven seconds. [CBS News, 9/21/2001; Newhouse News Service, 1/25/2002; ABC News, 9/11/2002; USA Today, 8/13/2002]

[Skeptic4Sure]

KenFord.jpg:


And contradicts the dozens of folks who saw the plane come up over I-395, Washington Boulevard, and Columbia Pike, such as


And??? I'm not debating that. I know this fact, that was the point I was making.

Christopher Munsey, who was en route to work on I-395, "Already dumbfounded by the first, sketchy radio reports of the catastrophic attack on the World Trade Center towers in New York, I couldn’t believe what I was now seeing to my right: A silver, twin-engine American Airlines jetliner gliding almost noiselessly over the Navy Annex, fast, low and straight toward the Pentagon, just hundreds of yards away. It was a nightmare coming to life. The plane, with red and blue markings, hurtled by and within moments exploded in a ground-shaking “whoomp,” as it appeared to hit the side of the Pentagon. A huge flash of orange flame and black smoke poured into the sky. Smoke seemed to change from black to white, forming a billowing column in the sky."

Yes, he was on 395, just after crossing from the 14th st bridge. His view is pretty bad, and yet he make out the stripes and colors??? We spoke with people who were a FEW FEET to 10's of feet away from it, and they couldn't describe those details, such as this "Gannett employee" can.




John O’Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication, "I was going up Interstate 395, up Washington Boulevard, listening to the radio, to the news, to WTOP, and from my left side, I don’t know whether I saw or heard it first -- this silver plane; I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet, it came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I’d just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, ‘That’s not going to make it to National Airport.’ And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black thick smoke. The eeriest thing about it, was that it was like you were watching a movie. There was no huge explosion, no huge rumbling on ground, it just went ‘pfff.’ It wasn’t what I would have expected for a plane that was not much more than a football field away from me. The first thing I did was pull over onto the shoulder, and when I got out of the car I saw another plane flying over my head, and it scared ...me, because I knew there had been two planes that hit the World Trade Center. And I started jogging up the ramp to get as far away as possible. Then the plane -- it looked like a C-130 cargo plane -- started turning away from the Pentagon, it did a complete turnaround. There was nothing to see but black. The whole side of Washington Boulevard was black and on fire. I lost all sense of time. I think I was standing outside a good 20 minutes or so, and then, it was just 10 minutes until I got to the Memorial Bridge, which was closed, so I went up the GW Parkway and to a friend’s house."


Tell me please, how John O'Keefe's account makes sense.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JohnOKeefe.jpg

Ann Krug, from Hoffman-Boston Elementary School off of Columbia Pike. Her kindergarten class saw the plane crash outside the classroom's window. "I actually pointed it out and said: 'Look at this plane; look at how low it's flying,' " Krug recalled. "And then we all saw it come down."


Yeah familiar with Anne Krug. She hasn't worked at HB for about 4 years. But we are well aware of the "Columbia Pike" flight path. We interviewed several witnesses in the Hoffman-Boston elementary neighborhood.



And here's Scott Cook's quote taken in context:

Scott Cook - We didn’t know what kind of plane had hit the Pentagon, or where it had hit. Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon. I cannot fathom why neither myself nor Ray, a former Air Force officer, missed a big 757, going 400 miles an hour, as it crossed in front of our window in its last 10 seconds of flight. - http://www.clothmonkey.com/91101.htm


Yes, he missed it. But he is a prime example of the "DC flight path" and how it was promoted as the OFFICIAL flight path for so long. Here is what he told me in an e-mail.

I remember reading a quote from a congressman at the time saying he saw the 757 approach the Capitol from southeast, make a "fighter-pilot turn" directly over the Capitol, and head west before curving around again and hitting the west side of the Pentagon going east. That quote was always used to try to show that a lousy pilot like Hani Hanjour couldn't have been the guy doing it. I always felt that only a lousy pilot, who should have been trying to avoid radar, would come in so high and so fast that he had to make a compete decending 360 turn around Washington, overstressing the plane mightily, and ended up too low and too slow to do any real damage to the building (relatively speaking). (Boeing must be quietly proud that their four planes held together through all the misuse they received that day.) And because of his lousy piloting and his inability to judge height and distance correctly, he hit the wrong side of the Pentagon where relatively few people worked. I'm sure the plan was to hit the river side of the building, where Rumsfeld and the Joint Chiefs sit. Osama would not have overlooked that detail in the planning.

[The Almond]

KenFord.jpg:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg



The source didn't put the scale bar on the image, but some investigoogling gave me an approximate radius of 0.5 miles. Using a cruising speed of 500 mph I came up with an acceleration of 203.7 ft/s/s or 6.36g, well beyond the tolerance of the Boeing 757.

[Bell]

delete

[Skeptic4Sure]

The source didn't put the scale bar on the image, but some investigoogling gave me an approximate radius of 0.5 miles. Using a cruising speed of 500 mph I came up with an acceleration of 203.7 ft/s/s or 6.36g, well beyond the tolerance of the Boeing 757.


OMG.

Are you kidding?

You are seriously questioning an arbitrary line that someone drew based on a witness account?

I could have made the radius larger, would that have made a difference in the fact that the witness says it flew up the river from National and then turned back and hit the Pentagon??????????

NO.

[Skeptic4Sure]

I love how no one mentions anything about these GLARING contradictions.

[Pardalis]

Your username is a glaring contradiction, sweetie pie.

[Skeptic4Sure]

Your username is a glaring contradiction, sweetie pie.

Your frustration is evident.

Reported...again.

[Pardalis]

My frustration is that we are miles away from each other, pumpkin.

[Bell]

Reported...again.

lol ??

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Gee, you sure about that? These accounts seem to contradict that "official" NTSB flight path.


Ken Ford’s account not only mentions seeing this plane through binoculars, but seeing it fly in a flight path completely opposite to the official one…

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg)
(it) “flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building.”
Sounds like he places the plane near Washington DC . He’s not the only one…


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg%C2%A0)
Joseph Candelario…(At Ft. McNair) “I went outside to the river to take a break. As I was looking across the river towards the direction of the Pentagon, I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it.”

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg)
Army Brig. Gen Clyde A. Vaughn…“it looked like it was loitering over Georgetown , in a high, left-hand bank," he said. "That may have been the plane… Georgetown is a sector of the District of Columbia … Commercial aircraft that are either approaching or departing from nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport do not fly over Georgetown ”… A few minutes later, Vaughn witnessed the craft's impact.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg)
Joe Hurst… At the Oval Room restaurant at Lafayette Square "I saw it go overhead, the plane."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg)
Lt. Col. Stuart Artman…walking near the Washington Monument "I saw the plane that hit the Pentagon. It went behind some trees."

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg)
Scott Cook… fifth floor of the Portals building, at 1280 Maryland Avenue SW , Washington DC … “Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon.”

Original sources of these quotes?

[TheGrunion]

I love how no one mentions anything about these GLARING contradictions.

I love how its been weeks since you announced that you were going to release something big.

Its been an hour and a half, some of us have lives outside of posting on the internet.

I usually get paid for my QA/QC efforts. I'm certainly not going to assist in providing a free one to you in regards to whatever drivel you are cooking up now.

When you roll out what ever nonsense it is you are rolling, I will look at it and provide a response.

For what its worth, you made an incorrect assumption on your O'Keefe graphic.

[Skeptic4Sure]

My frustration is that we are miles away from each other, pumpkin.


Please...elaborate.

[The Almond]

Are you kidding?

No.

You are seriously questioning an arbitrary line that someone drew based on a witness account?

The line certainly didn't look arbitrary. It looked rather deliberate to me. Furthermore, I get paid an awful lot of money to do this exact type of math for people. If I'm going to sit down and figure out how you can make a better, more coherent argument by improving the nature of your diagrams, you should thank me for it.

I could have made the radius larger,

Could you have? Try drawing your line with a constant, circular curve whose diameter is 7 cm (which would make the g forces for the turn 3g rather than 6.5) and make it hit the pentagon on the same face as the official story.

would that have made a difference in the fact that the witness says it flew up the river from National and then turned back and hit the Pentagon??????????

The witness may have said it, but that doesn't establish the veracity of the claim. If the witness reports maneuvers made by an aircraft that exceed the design specifications of the aircraft, the witness is probably mistaken.

[Skeptic4Sure]

Original sources of these quotes?


www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm

[Pardalis]

"someguyyoudontknow33"? Wow, seems like a great source.

Let's get together in a sauna sometime.

[Skeptic4Sure]

Andrews Air Force is east of the official story flight path. Steve O’Brien and his crew were taking off for the Caribbean which would be Southeast of Andrews. Dulles controllers have 77 coming from the Northwest to the Southeast entering Washington . Not from the West, like the NTSB flight path study suggests. He was called in to intercept and identify this plane. The problem is intercepting when it’s coming from the west is pretty tough.
Here is a chronological breakdown on a possible timeline based on published accounts about the C-130 encounter.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/C-130scene.jpg

- By chance a C-130 is already in the skies above Washington .
-Colonel Steve O’Brien, claims he took off around 9:30 a.m., planning to return to Minnesota after dropping supplies off in the Caribbean .
-" When we took off, we headed north and west and had a beautiful view of the Mall.(he said. "I noticed this airplane up and to the left of us, at 10 o'clock. He was descending to our altitude, four miles away or so. That's awful close, so I was surprised he wasn't calling out to us. )
-Reagan Airport flight control instructs a military C-130 (Golfer 06) that has just departed Andrews Air Force Base to intercept Flight 77 and identify it.
-The plane everyone is looking for is right in front of them.
-“When air traffic control asked me if we had him [Flight 77] in sight, I told him that was an understatement—by then, he had pretty much filled our windscreen.
-We were at about 3,500 feet at the time that I first noticed this commercial airliner in our 12 o'clock position in about a 45-degree bank, which is unusual for a large aircraft to be descending and turning at a 45-degree bank turn like that, so that really got our attention.
(At this point we should mention he was over Washington DC and then…
In another account:
-“I noticed this airplane up and to the left of us, at 10 o'clock. He was descending to our altitude, four miles away or so. That's awful close, so I was surprised he wasn't calling out to us. It was like coming up to an intersection
-Schumacher says in the videotape. "I remember looking out my right side windows, kind of down on it,
-Then he made a pretty aggressive turn so he was moving right in front of us, a mile and a half, two miles away.
-“With all of the East Coast haze, I had a hard time picking him out,”
(This is a bizarre statement, because it was a perfectly clear day that day in Arlington and the on the east coast)
-just after the explosion, “I could see the outline of the Pentagon,”
-Through the haze the shape of the Pentagon emerged where the explosion had occurred.
(Again, clearly he wasn’t near Flight 77 when it went down.)
-“I took the plane once through the plume of smoke and thought if this was a terrorist attack, it probably wasn’t a good idea to be flying through that plume.”


This whole account, even though it may be slightly out of sequence and was pieced together from multiple articles, does not make it sound like the plane was ever shadowing it, let alone all the way until it hit the building.
The most mind boggling and suspicious part is that they took off for the North and west and had a view of the the Mall in Washington DC, then had the plane in front of them at first to left at 10 o’ clock and in another account, a 12 o’clock
From Indianapolis traffic control to Dulles traffic control, he had no idea that they may have been dealing with a hijacked aircraft. He said he was surprised he (77) wasn’t calling out to them, he had essentially followed this plane not having any idea it was hijacked even after it crashed. This is strange considering we were confirmed under attack at 9:03 am. And he took off at 9:30. National groundstop was at 9:26. And yet he only finds out about the attacks in NYC AFTER 77 allegedly crashes into the Pentagon at 9:37. Amazing.

"The first thing we heard on there was 'We're now hearing about a second airplane hitting the World Trade Center .' That was not what we were expecting to hear. We were expecting to hear about an airplane impacting the Pentagon, and they haven't even mentioned that yet," says O'Brien. "They're just talking about a second airplane hitting the World Trade Center, and the light goes on, and it's like, 'Oh my God, the nation's under attack!'"

[Pardalis]

I just picked a quote at random from your source:

Deb Anlauf:

Anlauf was watching TV coverage of the Trade Center burning shortly before 9:30 a.m. when she decided to return to her 14th-floor room from another part of the hotel. Once in her room, she heard a "loud roar" and looked out the window to see what was going on. "Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window," Anlauf said during a telephone interview from her hotel room this morning. "You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. "Then it shot straight across from where we are and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon). When it hit, the whole hotel shook."

[Skeptic4Sure]

No.

Oh, I couldn't tell with the lack of critical thinking involved in the comment.

The line certainly didn't look arbitrary. It looked rather deliberate to me.

Yes, based on a witness report of someone who watched the plane from the across the river.

Furthermore, I get paid an awful lot of money to do this exact type of math for people. If I'm going to sit down and figure out how you can make a better, more coherent argument by improving the nature of your diagrams, you should thank me for it.


Please. Spare us the plug and the sarcasm. Save it for someone who cares.

Could you have? Try drawing your line with a constant, circular curve whose diameter is 7 cm (which would make the g forces for the turn 3g rather than 6.5) and make it hit the pentagon on the same face as the official story.

Again does that change what what was being said.

The witness may have said it, but that doesn't establish the veracity of the claim. If the witness reports maneuvers made by an aircraft that exceed the design specifications of the aircraft, the witness is probably mistaken.

Right or the person drawing a quick line.

[Pardalis]

From Steve Anderson:

Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.

Wow, great find!

[Skeptic4Sure]

I just picked a quote at random from your source:

Deb Anlauf:

And?

There are plenty of accounts that say it "flew into the Pentagon".

So?

Have you spoke with Deb, personally?

Could it be possible that like many people, she simply deduced this from seeing a plane and an explosion that was so huge that it would have blocked her view of the escaping flyover plane?

[Pardalis]

BS

Un p'tit bec? :p

[TheGrunion]

Andrews Air Force is east of the official story flight path. Steve O’Brien and his crew were taking off for the Caribbean which would be Southeast of Andrews. Dulles controllers have 77 coming from the Northwest to the Southeast entering Washington . Not from the West, like the NTSB flight path study suggests. He was called in to intercept and identify this plane. The problem is intercepting when it’s coming from the west is pretty tough.
Here is a chronological breakdown on a possible timeline based on published accounts about the C-130 encounter.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/C-130scene.jpg


This whole account, even though it may be slightly out of sequence and was pieced together from multiple articles, does not make it sound like the plane was ever shadowing it, let alone all the way until it hit the building.
The most mind boggling and suspicious part is that they took off for the North and west and had a view of the the Mall in Washington DC, then had the plane in front of them at first to left at 10 o’ clock and in another account, a 12 o’clock
From Indianapolis traffic control to Dulles traffic control, he had no idea that they may have been dealing with a hijacked aircraft. He said he was surprised he (77) wasn’t calling out to them, he had essentially followed this plane not having any idea it was hijacked even after it crashed. This is strange considering we were confirmed under attack at 9:03 am. And he took off at 9:30. National groundstop was at 9:26. And yet he only finds out about the attacks in NYC AFTER 77 allegedly crashes into the Pentagon at 9:37. Amazing.



Yup, you got a big problem in this one too. I'd read the source you are citing carefully and then read what you wrote carefully. You made a glaring reading comprehension error.

[The Almond]

Oh, I couldn't tell with the lack of critical thinking involved in the comment.

Appeal to intelligence


Please. Spare us the plug and the sarcasm. Save it for someone who cares.

Duly noted. If you don't care about the technical veracity of annotations made to your images, that's fine.

Again does that change what what was being said.

It puts into question the veracity of the claim.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Before 9:37 a.m.): Flight 77 Turns, Then Disappears from Radar Washington flight controllers are watching Flight 77’s radar blip. Just before radar contact is lost, FAA headquarters is told, “The aircraft is circling. It’s turning away from the White House.” [ USA Today, 8/13/2002] Then the blip disappears. Its last known position is six miles from the Pentagon and four miles from the White House. The plane is said to be traveling 500 mph, or a mile every seven seconds. [CBS News, 9/21/2001; Newhouse News Service, 1/25/2002; ABC News, 9/11/2002; USA Today, 8/13/2002
I believe this is not accurate. Playing around with the map, from what I can see any point that is four miles out from the White House is guarenteed to be less than 6 miles out from the Pentagon. To wit, the White House appears to be only ~2.12 miles away from the Pentagon.

[Skeptic4Sure]

From Steve Anderson:


Wow, great find!


Right now ask yourself how he was able to make out all those details all the way from Rosslyn, at 1000 Wilson Blvd on the 19th floor.

Then ask yourself why he places the plane flying over his building?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/SteveAnderson.jpg

[Pardalis]

I frankly don't care about the flight path, he did see a plane ram into the Pentagon.

Are you saying he lied about that?

[Skeptic4Sure]

I believe this is not accurate. Playing around with the map, from what I can see any point that is four miles out from the White House is guarenteed to be less than 6 miles out from the Pentagon. To wit, the White House appears to be only ~2.12 miles away from the Pentagon.


Yes, but you fail to mention they have it traveling NORTHEAST TO SOUTHWEST toward the white house.

[chipmunk stew]

Gee, you sure about that? These accounts seem to contradict that "official" NTSB flight path.


Ken Ford’s account not only mentions seeing this plane through binoculars, but seeing it fly in a flight path completely opposite to the official one…

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg)
(it) “flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building.”
Sounds like he places the plane near Washington DC . He’s not the only one…
Ford's full quote:
"We were watching the airport through binoculars, he said, referring to Reagan National Airport, a short distance away. The plane was a two-engine turbo prop that flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building."

Lockheed C-130 Hercules:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules.jpg

FCVRkAkC8n4

[Skeptic4Sure]

I frankly don't care about the flight path

That's one for the archives.

[chipmunk stew]

delete: duplicate post

[Dog Town]

Nobody knew that was American 77. ... I thought it was a military flight.”

Quote mining at it's worst. Why did they think it was a military plane?
Show the whole quote next time.


DT

[Pardalis]

That's one for the archives.

:boxedin: Oh, no, the Evil archives...

[Skeptic4Sure]

Ford's full quote:
"We were watching the airport through binoculars, he said, referring to Reagan National Airport, a short distance away. The plane was a two-engine turbo prop that flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building."

Lockheed C-130 Hercules:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules.jpg

FCVRkAkC8n4

I count 4 engines. How about you?

Now are you saying that the C-130 flew up the river from National and then turned back and hit the building? Is that what you're saying?

[Pardalis]

BTW, Anderson says:
I heard jet engines pass our building

Not "pass over our building".

cupcake.

[Skeptic4Sure]

Quote mining at it's worst. Why did they think it was a military plane?
Show the whole quote next time.


DT


Who was quote mining? Are you saying I didn't show the whole quote?

[Skeptic4Sure]

BTW, Anderson says:


Not "pass over our building".

cupcake.

Oh, so it passed his building in Rosslyn? Is that what you're saying happened?

[Pardalis]

He said he heard engines pass his building. The noise passed his building.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Yes, but you fail to mention they have it traveling NORTHEAST TO SOUTHWEST toward the white house.

Direction of flight is moot when you are looking at a radius around the landmarks in question. Did anyone report the plane as being anywhere around here on its final approach towards the Pentagon?:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/4_6_miles_out.jpg

[Skeptic4Sure]

Arkan, you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

It was traveling Northwest to Southeast toward the white house.

(I apologize, I mixed up my east and west additions.)

Northwest to the Southeast.

[H'ethetheth]

Yes, but you fail to mention they have it traveling NORTHEAST TO SOUTHWEST toward the white house.
I believe you'll find the MSNBC quote says:
“...from the northwest to the southeast...” Keep paying attention please.

Edit: Ah. I see you were paying attention. Thanks.

[Skeptic4Sure]

I believe you'll find the MSNBC quote says:
Keep paying attention please.


Yes, that's why i caught the mistake on my part as shown above.

Keep paying attention please.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Arkan, you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

It was traveling Northwest to Southeast toward the white house.

(I apologize, I mixed up my east and west additions.)

Northwest to the Southeast.

That hurts your case even more:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/nw_se.jpg

Line from the WH intersects the line from the Pentagon at 4 miles distance form the WH. The line from the Pentagon terminates 6 miles out from the Pentagon.


ETA: The only way it could have been even close to 4 miles from the WH and 6 miles from the Pentagon is if the plane and the Pentagon were opposite each other with the WH in a direct line between the two.

[bob_kark]

Yes, that's why i caught the mistake on my part as shown above.

Keep paying attention please.
He was paying attention to you paying attention, if you'll pay attention.

Edit: Ah. I see you were paying attention. Thanks.

[TheGrunion]

Andrews Air Force is east of the official story flight path. Steve O’Brien and his crew were taking off for the Caribbean which would be Southeast of Andrews. Dulles controllers have 77 coming from the Northwest to the Southeast entering Washington . Not from the West, like the NTSB flight path study suggests. He was called in to intercept and identify this plane. The problem is intercepting when it’s coming from the west is pretty tough.
Here is a chronological breakdown on a possible timeline based on published accounts about the C-130 encounter.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/C-130scene.jpg


This whole account, even though it may be slightly out of sequence and was pieced together from multiple articles, does not make it sound like the plane was ever shadowing it, let alone all the way until it hit the building.
The most mind boggling and suspicious part is that they took off for the North and west and had a view of the the Mall in Washington DC, then had the plane in front of them at first to left at 10 o’ clock and in another account, a 12 o’clock
From Indianapolis traffic control to Dulles traffic control, he had no idea that they may have been dealing with a hijacked aircraft. He said he was surprised he (77) wasn’t calling out to them, he had essentially followed this plane not having any idea it was hijacked even after it crashed. This is strange considering we were confirmed under attack at 9:03 am. And he took off at 9:30. National groundstop was at 9:26. And yet he only finds out about the attacks in NYC AFTER 77 allegedly crashes into the Pentagon at 9:37. Amazing.



S4S,

Catch your mistake regarding this yet?

[H'ethetheth]

Yes, that's why i caught the mistake on my part as shown above.

Keep paying attention please.Yes, that's why i caught the mistake on my part as shown above.

Keep paying attention please.:D

[chipmunk stew]

I count 4 engines. How about you?
Nevertheless, he identified as a turboprop. Which is most likely:

He misidentified a commercial airliner as a twin engine turboprop?
He misidentified a four engine turboprop as a twin engine turboprop?
Or, he identified a third plane that no one else witnessed?Now are you saying that the C-130 flew up the river from National and then turned back and hit the building? Is that what you're saying?
I'm saying he saw Steve O'Brien's C-130 approach from direction of Andrews and turn around when it caught sight of flight 77, and then he saw the explosion of flight 77 and incorrectly attributed it to the only plane he had seen--O'Brien's C-130.

[Stankeye]

Skeptic4Sure and LyteTrip:

I think you guys are in over your heads.

You left the realm of physical evidence because it doesn't help you and have gone into witness evidence.

While I don't profess to understand behavioral science my wife does and I asked her about eyewitness testimony this weekend, and was actually surprised at the amount of RESEARCH that has gone into the subject.

I would suggest that you need to read this information first before you come out with your irrefutable evidence as it will help you understand how these things work.

Here's a good article
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html

Here's a good book.
http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-under-Uncertainty-Heuristics-Biases/dp/0521284147/sr=8-4/qid=1165260984/ref=sr_1_4/002-6798422-7592846?ie=UTF8&s=books

When your evidence comes out and you ask us to debunk it, this is how it's going to be done.

[beachnut]

Right now ask yourself how he was able to make out all those details all the way from Rosslyn, at 1000 Wilson Blvd on the 19th floor.

Then ask yourself why he places the plane flying over his building?



did the plane have props?

[H'ethetheth]

If I may reach back a bit I'd like to remove this earlier quote from the list of evidence for anything at all Edit: That should be "any approach route at all":

(9:33-9:37 a.m.): Eyewitness Reports Indicate There Was No Loss of Control on Flight 77 Radar data shows Flight 77 crossing the Capitol Beltway and headed toward the Pentagon. However, the plane, flying more than 400 mph, is too high when it nears the Pentagon at 9:35 a.m., crossing the Pentagon at about 7,000 feet up. [CBS News, 9/21/2001; Boston Globe, 11/23/2001] The plane then makes a difficult high-speed descending turn. It makes a “downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn is so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there [is] no fight for control going on.” [CBS News, 9/21/2001]
How well can you judge the ground track of an aircraft 2 km above a point where you are not? I know I can't very well.
As for the rest, I remain unimpressed for now, for reasons mentioned by Stankeye.

[Stankeye]

If I may reach back a bit I'd like to remove this earlier quote from the list of evidence for anything at all:


How well can you judge the ground track of an aircraft 2 km above a point where you are not? I know I can't very well.
As for the rest, I remain unimpressed for now, for reasons mentioned by Stankeye.

Exactly this is what is going on now that we've reached the 5 yr mark. Eyewitness testimony is the evidence du jour and they have little to no understanding of behavioral science so it seems irrefutable and non-de-bunkable. They name call and bully us into refuting their witnesses when they don't understand the psychology of the whole process. Even I don't understand the whole psychological process of witness testimony, but for sure there is a lot of research on it.

These interviews that they have don't mean anything, they do not have the proper training to avoid the biases that they have. Once they can comprehend and understand what psychologists have to research for years, then they may have something.

Until that time it's all bluster

[Pardalis]

I'm really looking forward to their "evidence". Not only will their asses be handed to them, but they made so much fuss about it that it will be even more humiliating.

[gumboot]

I don't even know where to start.

1) People are absolutely awful at judging distance in relation to airbourne aircraft. I know this because I lived on Air Bases most of my life and am exceptionally good at it. If someone says an aircraft flew over "x" that doesn't mean it did. This becomes even harder at high speed. I suspect most here have probably never seen an aircraft in person travelling at 500 MPH low to the ground. I have. For those that have no seen it in person, you cannot possibly comprehend just how fast that is. This will make placement even harder.

2) No one makes any mention of false alerts and other aircraft thought to be headed to Washington DC. Let's take a look at the NEADS bunker shall we?

9:21:37
DOOLEY: Another hijack! It’s headed towards Washington!
NASYPANY: ****! Give me a location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Third aircraft—hijacked—heading toward Washington.

9:21:50
NASYPANY: O.K. American Airlines is still airborne—11, the first guy. He’s heading towards Washington. O.K., I think we need to scramble Langley right now. And I’m—I’m gonna take the fighters from Otis and try to chase this guy down if I can find him.

9:35:41
ROUNTREE: Huntress [call sign for NEADS] ID, Rountree, can I help you?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Latest report, [low-flying] aircraft six miles southeast of the White House.
ROUNTREE: Six miles southeast of the White House?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yup. East—he’s moving away?
ROUNTREE: Southeast from the White House.
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Air—aircraft is moving away.
ROUNTREE: Moving away from the White House?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yeah.…
ROUNTREE: Deviating away. You don’t have a type aircraft, you don’t know who he is—
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Nothing, nothing. We’re over here in Boston so I have no clue. That—hopefully somebody in Washington would have better—information for you.

10:07:08
PILOT: Baltimore is saying something about an aircraft over the White House. Any words?
CITINO: Negative. Stand by. Do you copy that, SD [Major Fox]? Center said there’s an aircraft over the White House. Any words?
FOX: M.C.C. [Nasypany], we’ve got an aircraft reported over the White House.
NASYPANY: Intercept!
FOX: Intercept!
NASYPANY: Intercept and divert that aircraft away from there.
CITINO: Quit 2-5 [Langley fighters], mission is intercept aircraft over White House. Use F.A.A. for guidance.
FOX: Divert the aircraft away from the White House. Intercept and divert it.
CITINO: Quit 2-5, divert the aircraft from the White House.
PILOT: Divert the aircraft.…

Hmm. Call me crazy, but seems things aren't as clear-cut as you might like to believe, CTers.

-Gumboot

[Peephole]

Ken Ford’s account not only mentions seeing this plane through binoculars, but seeing it fly in a flight path completely opposite to the official one…

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/KenFord.jpg)
(it) “flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building.”
Sounds like he places the plane near Washington DC . He’s not the only one…
Where was Ford standing? What was his perspective?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JosephCandelario.jpg%C2%A0)
Joseph Candelario…(At Ft. McNair) “I went outside to the river to take a break. As I was looking across the river towards the direction of the Pentagon, I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it.”

He doesn't say the plane was flying near the White House but that it was heading towards it. It could align with the NTSB's flight path.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ClydeVaughn.jpg)
Army Brig. Gen Clyde A. Vaughn…“it looked like it was loitering over Georgetown , in a high, left-hand bank," he said. "That may have been the plane… Georgetown is a sector of the District of Columbia … Commercial aircraft that are either approaching or departing from nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport do not fly over Georgetown ”… A few minutes later, Vaughn witnessed the craft's impact.It may have been the plane. And as Debunk911Myths said, planes do fly over Georgetown.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/JoeHurst.jpg)
Joe Hurst… At the Oval Room restaurant at Lafayette Square "I saw it go overhead, the plane."
This is the only eyewitness account that clearly contradicts the NTSB's flight path. He could be referring to a different plane.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/StuartArtman.jpg)
Lt. Col. Stuart Artman…walking near the Washington Monument "I saw the plane that hit the Pentagon. It went behind some trees."
Which trees?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/Mercury2/ScottCook.jpg)
Scott Cook… fifth floor of the Portals building, at 1280 Maryland Avenue SW , Washington DC … “Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon.”
"We were told." Did he see it himself?

Further, what is your point? Some of these accounts contradict each other. And some of these guys state they saw the plane hit the Pentagon. Are you trying to prove there were other planes in the area? Newsflash buddy, there's an airport.

[maccy]

Skeptic4Sure and LyteTrip:

I think you guys are in over your heads.

You left the realm of physical evidence because it doesn't help you and have gone into witness evidence.

While I don't profess to understand behavioral science my wife does and I asked her about eyewitness testimony this weekend, and was actually surprised at the amount of RESEARCH that has gone into the subject.

I would suggest that you need to read this information first before you come out with your irrefutable evidence as it will help you understand how these things work.

Here's a good article
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html

Here's a good book.
http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-under-Uncertainty-Heuristics-Biases/dp/0521284147/sr=8-4/qid=1165260984/ref=sr_1_4/002-6798422-7592846?ie=UTF8&s=books

When your evidence comes out and you ask us to debunk it, this is how it's going to be done.

So far Skeptic4Sure and Lyte Trip have shown no sign that they are even beginning to undrstand the problems with witness testimony. In their world eyewitnesses are either 100% accurate or they are lying (or, possibly, victims of mind control). Here are a couple of posts that summarise the sources of information that they've been pointed to and ignored:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...21#post2148221 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2148221#post2148221)

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=225 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2132245&postcount=225)

[Kent1]

So far Skeptic4Sure and Lyte Trip have shown no sign that they are even beginning to undrstand the problems with witness testimony. In their world eyewitnesses are either 100% accurate or they are lying (or, possibly, victims of mind control). Here are a couple of posts that summarise the sources of information that they've been pointed to and ignored:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...21#post2148221 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2148221#post2148221)

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=225 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2132245&postcount=225)

I agree, a lot of this is really that simple. Instead they attempt this odd patchwork of witness testimony supporting an overall story that few if any witnesses really support. Nor is this supported by the almost neverending mountain of physical evidance. The CT story has become SO unnessasary and complex. This is one of the reasons why I've spent a less time debating the "no plane" theories. Sometimes its fun to just give them free reign and watch them ramble and twist what they don't like.

[CurtC]

But you might have an issue with your vice-president and the Dulles ATC...VICE PRES. CHENEY: they had received a report that an airplane was headed for the White House.
MR. RUSSERT: This is Flight 77, which had left Dulles.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Which turned out to be Flight 77. It left Dulles, flown west towards Ohio , been captured by the terrorists. They turned off the transponder, which led to a later report that a plane had gone down in Ohio , but it really hadn't. Of course, then they turned back and headed back towards Washington . As best we can tell, they came initially at the White House and...
MR. RUSSERT: The plane actually circled the White House?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Didn't circle it, but was headed on a track into it. The Secret Service has an arrangement with the F.A.A. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was...
MR. RUSSERT: Tracking it by radar.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: And when it entered the danger zone and looked like it was headed for the White House was when they grabbed me and evacuated me to the basement. The plane obviously didn't hit the White House. It turned away and, we think, flew a circle and came back in and then hit the Pentagon. And that's what the radar track looks like.And if that isn’t bad enough...Cheney's account here exactly matches the official version. What on earth do you see here that you would think this supports your side?