Is the strong opposition to the "Truth Movement" stronger than the movement itself?

[Unfit4Command]

After months of arguing with "Truth Movement" members, reading posts on "Truth Movement sites, and listening to "Truth Movement" members talk, I've begun to realize that very few of them actually know what they're talking about.
Most people who say they're members of the movement have done nothing more than watch a few conspiracy videos and call 9/11 an "Inside Job." Very few of the apparent 25% of the country who believes in the cover up can even name the flight numbers of the 4 planes involved on 9/11.
Very few can even name one of the hijackers involved, I've even heard that some people can't even name the year in which 9/11 occured (this involves both Truthers, and non-truthers).

Where everything stands now, I think that the strong opposition(as in people who know what they're talking about and write detailed papers, and cite reliable info to prove the whole conspiracy false) to the movement is growing faster than the strong opposition to the official story. I've been noticing this more and more as time goes by.
When someone(this someone is now a firm believer than 9/11 was an inside job) first showed me "Pentagon Strike" almost 2 years ago I knew the video was wrong, but I wasn't educated enough on the subject to say anything. But yet I was continually attacked by people asking me for answers since I wasn't so quick to jump on the band wagon and believe everything the video had to say. So now after nearly 2 years I'm fairly educated on both sides of the issue and wrote a paper(I made a post about it a few weeks ago) just about the Pentagon Attack to show everyone who continually attacked me two years ago. Funny thing is that not a single one of the people who asked me for answers before even read the paper, or looked at it! I don't even think they wanted answers.

This is why the "Truth Movement" is weakening more and more as time goes by. It's getting bigger, but it's filling up with un-educated (don't get me wrong, there are educated people in the movement, and un-educated people against the movement) people who refuse to educate themselves and won't read into the other side. So basically, they're mainly close minded people who can only talk about what was said in a few popular videos like "Loose Change" or "Pentagon Strike."

The movement is impossible to please; very few of them even care to read into the other side. I got crap at school for reading a book called "Debunking 9/11 Myths" just because it spoke out against the movement. Apparently the people who hated my reading of the book thought I was close minded even though I've seen every conspiracy video and read several conspiracy papers with an open mind. It's really sad when you think about it, the "Truth Movement" is more of a fad than anything. Very few members ACTUALLY believe that the government is responsible for 9/11, if they did, they would be outraged and protesting about the events in front of the White House, not on the grave of 3,000 people where they're just trying to pick up "fans" for their cause.

Anyways...has anyone else noticed how weak the movement is for its size? Very few of the members actually know what they're talking about in comparison to the opposition. It's just growing because people refuse to look at both sides of the issue with an open mind, or at least that's the main problem I've been running into.

[jamrat]

Just you wait! Loose Change Final Cut is coming out next year. Dingleberry Dylan says he's got huge names behind it. It will change the world!!! :D

[Unfit4Command]

Just you wait! Loose Change Final Cut is coming out next year. Dingleberry Dylan says he's got huge names behind it. It will change the world!!! :D

Good, I've been running out of things to debunk lately. :)

[jamrat]

More seriously tho', I know what you mean. Some people are drawn to conspiracy theories by nature and they are a pretty small percentage of the population to begin with. Thanks to the work of people like Gravy and the guys at Screw Loose Change, anybody who cares to look into 9/11 will find out how utterly clueless the CT's are.

[Unfit4Command]

More seriously tho', I know what you mean. Some people are drawn to conspiracy theories by nature and they are a pretty small percentage of the population to begin with. Thanks to the work of people like Gravy and the guys at Screw Loose Change, anybody who cares to look into 9/11 will find out how utterly clueless the CT's are.

Yep, just most of the "Truth Movement" members probably refuse to even read through Gravy's writings, or watch Screw Loose Change. Too close minded in most cases.

[~enigma~]

Yep, just most of the "Truth Movement" members probably refuse to even read through Gravy's writings, or watch Screw Loose Change. Too close minded in most cases.To be more precise you should say most members of the woowoos do not read.

:bananapartyhat:

[gumboot]

Anyways...has anyone else noticed how weak the movement is for its size? Very few of the members actually know what they're talking about in comparison to the opposition. It's just growing because people refuse to look at both sides of the issue with an open mind, or at least that's the main problem I've been running into.



Absolutely. For the first time, recently, I was exposed to the arguments and debating of the leaders of the 9/11 Truth Movement (things like Gravy's exchange with Alex Jones, for example).

What absolutely astounded me was the lack of knowledge that even these leaders had of 9/11. I feel quite confident saying that I have more knowledge of 9/11 than all of the 9/11 Truth leaders combined. And my knowledge is pretty small compared with others like MikeW and Gravy.

In a recent exchange with a Troofer, I had specific and precise information in relation to EVERY SINGLE vague claim he raised. In some cases I was correcting, in others confirming, but the point was, in every single case HE DID NOT KNOW THE INFORMATION. Truthers don't have knowledge or facts, they have vague innuendo and suspicious rumour. That's all.

-Gumboot

[~enigma~]

Absolutely. For the first time, recently, I was exposed to the arguments and debating of the leaders of the 9/11 Truth Movement (things like Gravy's exchange with Alex Jones, for example).

What absolutely astounded me was the lack of knowledge that even these leaders had of 9/11. I feel quite confident saying that I have more knowledge of 9/11 than all of the 9/11 Truth leaders combined. And my knowledge is pretty small compared with others like MikeW and Gravy.

In a recent exchange with a Troofer, I had specific and precise information in relation to EVERY SINGLE vague claim he raised. In some cases I was correcting, in others confirming, but the point was, in every single case HE DID NOT KNOW THE INFORMATION. Truthers don't have knowledge or facts, they have vague innuendo and suspicious rumour. That's all.

-Gumboot

Read the exchange between James Dunn and Uncle Fester...I mean Jim Fetzer...and you will be surprised at the lack of thinking among the woowoo leadership. Scholar?! Scholar of what?

[Unfit4Command]

Absolutely. For the first time, recently, I was exposed to the arguments and debating of the leaders of the 9/11 Truth Movement (things like Gravy's exchange with Alex Jones, for example).

What absolutely astounded me was the lack of knowledge that even these leaders had of 9/11. I feel quite confident saying that I have more knowledge of 9/11 than all of the 9/11 Truth leaders combined. And my knowledge is pretty small compared with others like MikeW and Gravy.

In a recent exchange with a Troofer, I had specific and precise information in relation to EVERY SINGLE vague claim he raised. In some cases I was correcting, in others confirming, but the point was, in every single case HE DID NOT KNOW THE INFORMATION. Truthers don't have knowledge or facts, they have vague innuendo and suspicious rumour. That's all.

-Gumboot

Yeah! The Gravy-Alex Jones talk was the final straw for me. I used to think at least the leaders of the movement had some knowledge of the event, but instead they know nothing. They just just say "You see! He's building strawmen" when he couldn't even raise a single true fact about the events.

[gumboot]

Read the exchange between James Dunn and Uncle Fester...I mean Jim Fetzer...and you will be surprised at the lack of thinking among the woowoo leadership. Scholar?! Scholar of what?


I had read Part I a while ago and just read Part II today. PRICELESS!!!

-Gumboot

[Unfit4Command]

Now I can't wait for the Gravy-Bermas debate on Hardfire. If anyone on the fence watches the debate with an open mind a mortal blow will be dealt to the movement.

Lately the Truth Movement has been losing steam and running into more fierce opposition. Within the next few years they might actually start losing supporters if the trend continues. :)

[~enigma~]

I had read Part I a while ago and just read Part II today. PRICELESS!!!

-Gumboot

Really is scary what some people fall for. I mean seriously, the followers of these jerks (at least the young ones) are going to be the "adults" when us normal people retire.

ETA - 50 posts. Time to find a signature, bet you guys can figure my avatar

:bananapartyhat:

[orphia nay]

Great OP, Unfit4Command.

Is the strong opposition to the "Truth Movement" stronger than the movement itself?

The Twoof Movement thinks its battle has strength in numbers, but it is made up of people wielding mushy bananas. A whole bunch of nothing still equals nothing.

I'm reminded of what a friend wrote to me the other day, when we were discussing the twoofers we were debating:

"...if you did manage to convince them that they are wrong you'd be taking away one of the few things that gives their lives meaning. They obviously don't rank high in analytical thinking so they depend heavily on "belief" and they want to believe they are fighting for a good and noble cause..."

That really summed a lot of things up nicely for me, and I've decided to let those ones be. (Well, maybe a little dig now and then.)

The only danger is the hard-core twoofers, those Averys, Killtowns, Joneses, and Woods. Luckily they mostly disagree with each other and cancel out any actual effect the 'inside job' myth might have on real events.

But the opposition to those twoofers has enormously effective strength in its logic, facts and innumerable demonstrations of the validity of the scientific conclusion based upon the mountains of evidence.

[W6102LA]

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=638434

Here's a thread that popped up on a popular messageboard here in oz after the release of the Doubletree vid, it's an interesting read. Some of the links the CT'ist provide are hilarious. The thread didn't live very long :)

[~enigma~]

Great OP, Unfit4Command.



The Twoof Movement thinks its battle has strength in numbers, but it is made up of people wielding mushy bananas.
Excuse me? No more bigoted remarks against bananas :)

:bananapartyhat:

[~enigma~]

Luckily they mostly disagree with each other and cancel out any actual effect the 'inside job' myth might have on real events.

Now that is funny. Sounds like anti-matter or in this case anti-woowoo.

[orphia nay]

:lolsign:

Excuse me? No more bigoted remarks against bananas :)

:bananapartyhat:

My apologies to bananas everywhere. Cool avatar.

"Wielding invisible feathers" perhaps.

[~enigma~]

:lolsign:



My apologies to bananas everywhere. Cool avatar.

"Wielding invisible feathers" perhaps.No problem.

:bananapartyhat:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Lately the Truth Movement has been losing steam and running into more fierce opposition. Within the next few years they might actually start losing supporters if the trend continues. :)

The rising Jones-Fetzer Scholar civil war I think will do a great deal to discredit the movement, probably as much as thier external opposition. Legal posession of the Scholar "trademark" seems to lie with Fetzer and the raygunners.Wich is good for us, because we definately want one of the most recognizable twoofer brands to by held by those so insane that they are effevtively self-debunking.

Talk of death stars and space beams will push away alot of relatively sane fence sitters.

[orphia nay]

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=638434

Here's a thread that popped up on a popular messageboard here in oz after the release of the Doubletree vid, it's an interesting read. Some of the links the CT'ist provide are hilarious. The thread didn't live very long :)

I'm afraid that when I click the link the page has the message:
Sorry, you do not have access to this forum.
Is the forum only readable to members?

[Foolmewunz]

I concur to a great extent.

Around the time of the LC meltdown, when we first had the pleasure of But At Least He's Really Polite Russel P, I had taken to cruising(lurking) both the US and UK Truther boards and was pretty much unimpressed with the same thing.... There's no there in the theories! It's all just pretty much rehashing the same old tired stuff. The largest numbers of the participants on those boards are sort of weak cousins. They haven't done more than a cursory reading of any of the evidence, and for the most part haven't even read the books and authors whose names and titles they throw about. (Not that I've read all of them - I'd have lime jello instead of a brain - but I bothered to dig a lot deeper than most of the supposed believers.)

I still think the good fight needs to be fought for the people who are on the fence, hopefully to prevent them from falling in with the dark side,..... but turning the true CT nutters ain't gonna happen. Unfortunately, this "movement" defines their lives in many cases. What would JDX, Roxdog, TS1234, et al do without this cause? Go back to being a solitary loon crying in the middle of an empty lake, hoping for another loon to fly over so they can get some loon love and loon conversation......

:spjimlad: :spjimlad: :spjimlad:

[MG1962]

Yeah I gave a long term (Well two months actually) debate recently, after the CTer claimed the photos I produced of human remains from the Pentagon where faked

I'd had enough at that point. The photos where from the evidence list of the Zacarias Moussaoui, case. I have no doubt if the evidence was the least bit fuzzy or of doubtful origin, the defense lawyer would have pounced.

One interesting thing that came out of tha debate - JohndoeX popped in for a couple of posts to throw his weight around. I was shocked he didn't even know the real height of the light poles.....:yikes:

[JAStewart]

I'm a good example of how the truth-movement is dying. I once was a 'hardcore' truther, but now, I do a blog, debunking CT claims: http://electionnightspecial.blogspot.com

[W6102LA]

I'm afraid that when I click the link the page has the message:

Is the forum only readable to members?

oops. i just realized some section of that forum aren't accessible until members have accumulated a certain number of posts, sorry bout that. :o

[T.A.M.]

Absolutely. For the first time, recently, I was exposed to the arguments and debating of the leaders of the 9/11 Truth Movement (things like Gravy's exchange with Alex Jones, for example).

What absolutely astounded me was the lack of knowledge that even these leaders had of 9/11. I feel quite confident saying that I have more knowledge of 9/11 than all of the 9/11 Truth leaders combined. And my knowledge is pretty small compared with others like MikeW and Gravy.

In a recent exchange with a Troofer, I had specific and precise information in relation to EVERY SINGLE vague claim he raised. In some cases I was correcting, in others confirming, but the point was, in every single case HE DID NOT KNOW THE INFORMATION. Truthers don't have knowledge or facts, they have vague innuendo and suspicious rumour. That's all.

-Gumboot


I agree. While there are some in the "truth" movement who are quite versed in all areas of it, most of them were "raised" on the 9/11 videos only. When all you have as your background are "soundbytes" of "WTC was brought down by CD", or "Pentagon was hit by a missile", than that is about all you can spue. The videos do not go into the details, remember, they just "ask questions"...lol

Arguing with the average "truther" is like arguing against a video, and their arguments tend to be equally thin.

But, as others here have said, fight we must...debate we must...so the fence sitters are aware of the REAL evidence, the REAL details, the REAL studies, what the REAL experts say about it.

Keep up the fight

TAM

[The Doc]

Whenever I raise this issue with friends, family or even people I don't know very well in the real world, they seem to bring up the Pentagon theory and the Squibs most of all. Which are of course, easily refuted.

I've only ever had one encounter with someone who I could safely say has slightly researched the issue. He got about as deep as Silverstein and building 7 and when I countered him he pulled (no pun intended :P) the classic "let's just agree to disagree" which basically means "I've got nothing on you but you'll never change my mind". It can sometimes mean "Look, your my friend and I don't want argue with you"... but we aren't exactly friends.

I truly believe that people like James Fetzer, Alex Jones and co. will actually believe this stuff to the day they die. I can picture Jones at 70 sitting around waiting for the NWO to come. They will never change their minds.

It's the fence sitters that count in the end. That's why movies like "Screw Loose Change" and the upcoming "Screw 9/11 Mysteries" are great. Show them the original WITH subtitles showing how wrong they are ;)

[PerryLogan]

YES, by the gods!

The anti-Truth Movement is growing by leaps and bounds, as more people react in horror to the goofy, inaccurate, irresponsible arguments of the conspiracy theorists.

Either that or the government is hiring shills from all over the world to come here and have fun.

Of course the Truth Movement was never really a movement, just as 9/11 was never an inside job. The Truthers attack one another with more frequency and fervor than anyone else in the world, which is pretty funny.

I read that IQs are going up every year. People are apparently getting smarter. This further dooms the Truth "Movement." And the Republican Party.

[The Doc]

Lol nice Perry.

Which is why I would LOVE to see a national 9/11 debate. I can just see it now... *harp music with rippling screen effect*

Alex Jones: So in conclusion the World Trade Centers were brought down by controlled demolition.

Judy Wood: No it was a satellite ray gun with super frequency fission power!

Steven Block: It was a nuke god damnit!

Anti-Truthers: I Think we'll just sit and watch, they'll end up debunking themselves.

Hehe, can't wait :)

[gumboot]

YES, by the gods!

The anti-Truth Movement is growing by leaps and bounds, as more people react in horror to the goofy, inaccurate, irresponsible arguments of the conspiracy theorists.

Either that or the government is hiring shills from all over the world to come here and have fun.

Of course the Truth Movement was never really a movement, just as 9/11 was never an inside job. The Truthers attack one another with more frequency and fervor than anyone else in the world, which is pretty funny.

I read that IQs are going up every year. People are apparently getting smarter. This further dooms the Truth "Movement." And the Republican Party.


As always your posts are straight to the point, insightful, and seasoned with a generous helping of sharp wit. Excellent.

-Gumboot

[PerryLogan]

Thank you. I'm bucking for Head Propagandist for the New World Order. Or Head Propagandor.

[jhunter1163]

I think that Twoofers come in four types:

1. Hardcore, non-redeemable types who simply WON'T hear any evidence contrary to their belief. These are the Killtowns, Mercs, etc. They've totally gone over to the Dark Side. (maybe 10% of Twoofers)

2. Converts who have bought into the party line. These are the people (like JAStewart) that the infighting at LC and the criticism from JREF :) are starting to drive away. (maybe 20% of Twoofers)

3. Casual Twoofers, for whom this movement is the cause celebre du jour. Most of these were driven off in the meltdown at the LC forum. (50% of Twoofers)

4. Lurkers, for whom the Twoof movement confirms some deep suspicion they have about the big bad evil USG. These are the people we need to keep fighting to save. (the remaining 20%).

[Hutch]

I think we are seeing the end game of an interesting phenomena (sic), the first truly Interet-Driven Conspiracy Therory. Prior CT's were driven either by word-of-mouth or legend or by books (from witches rituals to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion). TV and Movies occasionally pushed CT's along in the last 50 years or so (JFK and the Moon Hoax for example). But this one used the technology of the Internet to expand, almost below the radar of the Mainstream Media.

It seems to have several stages IMHO (not particulary well-defined where one ends and one begins), and this is how it looks to me...IMHO, once again.

Step 1. INITIATION--Started nearly as soon as the rubble stopped rattling at the WTC. The "usual suspects", those who find everything ever done on the planet to be a Secret conspiracy plot, began to post--but it was still without form.

Step 2. CONTAGION--With books like the Frenchman (whose name I forget) on no Boeing at the Pentagon and other 'scholars' using 'common sense', a framework of "what really happened" begins to take form--or many forms, but the inconsistencies are not immediatley obvious

Step 3: THE INTERNET EXPLOSION--This is where this conspiracy starts to differ from any other. Suddenly anyone with some .html knowledge and an opinion can start spreading the stories. And with films like Loose Change and others easily available over the Net, with blogs and websites and chats, suddenly all the folks who might be long distacnes from each other can communicate, and more importantly, 'invade' in a coordinated way other areas to spread their CT Gospel. And all of it below the Mainstream Media radar, so it spreads quietly but insistently, especially among younger folks who are (a) Much more computer saavy (b) Used to visual evidences (c) distrustful of authority (heck, so was I when I was in my teens/20's). It becomes what some of the leaders feel is a 'movement'.

Step 4: RECOGNITION AND REBUTTAL--This movement eventually gets enough attention and makes enough fuss for those who accept the Official Story to begin to study what the 'movement' has...which, as is quickly discovered, ain't much. So the rebuttals begin, either in Mainstream Media (Popular Mechanics and some Discovery/Natl. Geographic channel Programs) or more importantly on the Web (such a gray, markyx, jamesb, jastewart, and so many others). And since the rebuttal is soldily based on evidence, data, and math/physics (somewhere on this page one Forumite said "They're bringing pictures to a Math Fight." or something close to it and truer words have never been spoken), the rebuttals began to ask questions that the movement couldn't answer.

Step 5--RETRENCHMENT AND RECRIMINATIONS--The movement, under increasing review (attacks to them), begins to splinter between those who still want to prove a factual conspiracy (i.e., Russ Pickering and perhaps Dylan Avery) and those who move farther and farther into the realm of speculation and woowoo (Judy Woods). The movement begins attacking itself and dividing into it's own sects (the no-planers, the controlled planes, the CD'ers, et. al.), all bitterly attacking each other as much as they attack the 'skeptics'. What had been a movement is now a bunch of squabbling subsets.

Step 6--END GAME--This will be the future, where, like the Kennedy and Moon Hoax folks, it will go on, with occasional forays into the collective conscious, but easily dismissed because of the wealth of knowledge and rebuttals that will be easily available to any student. The die-hards will remain die-hards; but mst will move onto the next CT, what it may be.

At least, that is how it looks to me; someone with more experience and knowledge may want to amend/modify it, but the main thought is if this is the way conspiracies in the Internet Age will be played out in the future, and what, if anything, can be done about it, besides what has already been done.


Nice OP, Unfit. Helped me crystalize my views for the post above.

[stateofgrace]

Maybe it is just my perception of things or maybe it because I mainly post comments on 911 on this board, but I genuinely see the truth movement fading. I feel there really is a growing backlash against this movement and that it is getting stronger everyday.

I actually came across these guys a few years ago. I don’t know whether anybody else was on the Universal board when United 93 was released but this board was literally hijacked by the deniers and there were only a few debunkers on it. They literally ran riot on that board.

Now the number of people who are prepared to take on this nonsense has grown to such an extent that this board in particular is well know for it’s stand against them. It also seems that new sites and blogs are coming on line almost on a daily basis simply venting off at these guys.

I personally feel the deniers are finished, they have nothing new to offer and what they do try to offer up is simply decimated.

I don’t doubt that the hardcore will carry on, shouting as loud as they can, repeating the same rubbish over and over again. But the reality is they are promoting garbage and they know it. The only people that buy it are those that hate Bush and the US to such an extend they would believe anything that was said about them.

Give it a few more years and more crazy ideas about fly overs and secret space beams and they will be consigned to their rightful place. A place where only the hard-core loonies go. A place where sane people simply never venture.

[chipmunk stew]

At least, that is how it looks to me; someone with more experience and knowledge may want to amend/modify it, but the main thought is if this is the way conspiracies in the Internet Age will be played out in the future, and what, if anything, can be done about it, besides what has already been done.
Nice summary, Hutch.

I don't have any more experience or knowledge, but as far as what can be done about it, I think the main lesson to take away from the evolution of the 9/11 CTs is that we should have taken it seriously much earlier. For my part, I merely rolled my eyes and laughed it off until I saw how popular Loose Change was getting, which was about four years too late. Luckily, some people (most notably MikeW [911myths.com] and Pop. Mechanics) had recognized how attractive the CT could be and began gathering the facts and analysis that laid the groundwork for the rest of us.

Nice OP, Unfit.
Yes.

[Brainster]

I'll throw some metrics at the debate.

SLC is way down in traffic, from over 3,000 per day in September to 1,000 per day now. Now, to a certain extent that is clearly due to the relative quiet period from the Loosers compared to the newer films like 9-11 Press for Truth and 9-11 Mysteries. We do come up fairly well in searches for those films but obviously not as high as for Loose Change, and Google searches still push about half of our traffic.

9-11 Blogger did not have as steep a drop-off in traffic in October as we did, but they cratered in November. They went from 310,000 to 200,000 for the month. Of course, this still ranks them highest among 9-11 Topsites (http://www.unsungwar.com/topsites/). Of course, Topsites continues to exclude SLC, which would rank #3 (http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s24screwloose) on their page view rankings, above Scholars for 9-11 Truth and below Godlike Productions and 9-11 Blogger.

[~enigma~]

Now I can't wait for the Gravy-Bermas debate on Hardfire. If anyone on the fence watches the debate with an open mind a mortal blow will be dealt to the movement.

Lately the Truth Movement has been losing steam and running into more fierce opposition. Within the next few years they might actually start losing supporters if the trend continues. :)I don't think that is going to be a fair debate. I mean if Wieck stays out of the debate, it will only be the two (maybe three) LC guys against Gravy. Odds are not good so in order to even the odds, the LC crew should bring AJ and the jesters...I mean scholars for 9/11 truth :)

[orphia nay]

Thank you. I'm bucking for Head Propagandist for the New World Order. Or Head Propagandor.

I think I'll call Perry 'THE PROPAGANDINATOR'.

Perry was a man...
He was a disinfo man...
Actually he was just a truth man.
Propagandinating the countryside...
Propagandinating the Twoofers...
Propagandinating all the sheeple chanting with the bull-horn CT nut...

[The Doc]

November 2008 the Truth Movement will suffer a MAJOR blow when Bush leaves office (Whoo-hoo!).

When they see how he's gained absolutley nothing out of 9/11 once his presidency is over, the whole conspiracy doesn't make any sense. The fact that Dick Cheney isn't running will also be a blow.

With the release of "Screw 9/11 Mysteries" coming late December the Debunker movement will only grow.

Can't wait :)

[~enigma~]

With the release of "Screw 9/11 Mysteries" coming late December This will be a great one. Hope to see this ASAP.

[eryn]

Hi, a newbie here, but I just wanted to say that I am starting to see the trend of a fading truth movement. I got interested in the whole conspiracy theory thing back in early september when the CBC in Canada aired parts of "Loose Change" and interviewed Bermas and Avery. My personal opinions of the CBC aside, I was frankly rather mystified how anyone could really believe most of that conspiracy junk. Asking questions is more than alright, but that doesn't mean that you need to come off as a raving lunatic who insults and verbally abuse soldiers while they're simply trying to eat a meal in a restaurant. I finally got curious enough and I went online and searched for "Loose Change" to see if there was actually any truth to it. I found the whole movie, I wanted to throttle someone the entire time, but I did watch it!

Then I found "Screw Loose Change". I did a little happy dance. (It was a nice little jig, I should show it to you all sometime) Then I found the Screw Loose Change blog, Gravy's in depth paper debunking the truthers, Abby Scott's blog (loved the film by the way), the debate between the LC guys and the Popular Mechanics guys, and finally the JREF forums.

Thus far, I haven't seen or read adequate evidence from the wonderful people on the "truther" side. All I've really seen on the LC forums is blatant disrespect for everyone not in the truther camp, that's not to say that there aren't rational LC people, but boy do they seem few and far between.

I think that the loud and obnoxious LC'ers are all bark and no bite, they can't seem to hold a legitimate debate without falling into name calling and bad behaviour. I'd be more than happy to see a rational debate, but it looks to me like that won't happen anytime soon. I also think the truth movement is fading. Until I saw that broadcast on CBC, I didn't even know that the movement really existed. I knew that there were still questions being asked, but had no idea that some kids from upstate New York got it in their head to film a bunch of misleading information and slap it on the web. I doubt I would even know about them now if I wasn't for the CBC.

Yeah, I'm done now. ;)

/end intro :D

[gumboot]

Hi, a newbie here

...

Yeah, I'm done now. ;)

/end intro :D


Welcome to the forums Eryn. And an excellent first post. Your observations mirror what many here have witnessed.

-Gumboot

[jhunter1163]

Welcome to the forums Eryn.

I lurk some over at LC, and I can tell you that their arguments are becoming increasingly shrill and desperate. The hard core are still keeping the faith, but they're losing converts at a great rate because of 1) the backbiting among the leadership and 2) increasingly effective debunkings, plus the "retard" perception that was foisted on them by South Park.

My feeling is that by the time Bush leaves office the Twoofers will be as marginalized as the JFK fantasists.

Again, welcome to the forums. Nice first post.

[chipmunk stew]

I'll throw some metrics at the debate.

SLC is way down in traffic, from over 3,000 per day in September to 1,000 per day now. Now, to a certain extent that is clearly due to the relative quiet period from the Loosers compared to the newer films like 9-11 Press for Truth and 9-11 Mysteries. We do come up fairly well in searches for those films but obviously not as high as for Loose Change, and Google searches still push about half of our traffic.

9-11 Blogger did not have as steep a drop-off in traffic in October as we did, but they cratered in November. They went from 310,000 to 200,000 for the month. Of course, this still ranks them highest among 9-11 Topsites (http://www.unsungwar.com/topsites/). Of course, Topsites continues to exclude SLC, which would rank #3 (http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s24screwloose) on their page view rankings, above Scholars for 9-11 Truth and below Godlike Productions and 9-11 Blogger.
Here are some more metrics, from Pikey of UK 9/11 Truth:
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3974
tee hee

[The Almond]

Hi, a newbie here, but I just wanted to say that I am starting to see the trend of a fading truth movement. I got interested in the whole conspiracy theory thing back in early september when the CBC in Canada aired parts of "Loose Change" and interviewed Bermas and Avery. My personal opinions of the CBC aside, I was frankly rather mystified how anyone could really believe most of that conspiracy junk. Asking questions is more than alright, but that doesn't mean that you need to come off as a raving lunatic who insults and verbally abuse soldiers while they're simply trying to eat a meal in a restaurant. I finally got curious enough and I went online and searched for "Loose Change" to see if there was actually any truth to it. I found the whole movie, I wanted to throttle someone the entire time, but I did watch it!

Then I found "Screw Loose Change". I did a little happy dance. (It was a nice little jig, I should show it to you all sometime) Then I found the Screw Loose Change blog, Gravy's in depth paper debunking the truthers, Abby Scott's blog (loved the film by the way), the debate between the LC guys and the Popular Mechanics guys, and finally the JREF forums.

Thus far, I haven't seen or read adequate evidence from the wonderful people on the "truther" side. All I've really seen on the LC forums is blatant disrespect for everyone not in the truther camp, that's not to say that there aren't rational LC people, but boy do they seem few and far between.

I think that the loud and obnoxious LC'ers are all bark and no bite, they can't seem to hold a legitimate debate without falling into name calling and bad behaviour. I'd be more than happy to see a rational debate, but it looks to me like that won't happen anytime soon. I also think the truth movement is fading. Until I saw that broadcast on CBC, I didn't even know that the movement really existed. I knew that there were still questions being asked, but had no idea that some kids from upstate New York got it in their head to film a bunch of misleading information and slap it on the web. I doubt I would even know about them now if I wasn't for the CBC.

Yeah, I'm done now. ;)

/end intro :D

What an excellent first post! Welcome to JREF eryn. I hope you'll find that the great heavyweights of this forum, Gravy, Maccy, Anti-sophist, Chipmunk, and so on are an enormous wealth of information about 9/11. From the physics to the chemistry to the philosophy and logic behind most truther claims, they've got everything covered.

[Graham2001]

It may be the case that the 9/11 'truth' movement is dying out in the US but rather sadly it is quite likely that children in Venezuela, Cuba, Iran & North Korea are even as we read this being taught 9/11 'truth' in their schools:mad:

[gumboot]

It may be the case that the 9/11 'truth' movement is dying out in the US but rather sadly it is quite likely that children in Venezuela, Cuba, Iran & North Korea are even as we read this being taught 9/11 'truth' in their schools:mad:



That would be an interesting thing to get some information on. Anyone?

-Gumboot

[eryn]

What an excellent first post! Welcome to JREF eryn. I hope you'll find that the great heavyweights of this forum, Gravy, Maccy, Anti-sophist, Chipmunk, and so on are an enormous wealth of information about 9/11. From the physics to the chemistry to the philosophy and logic behind most truther claims, they've got everything covered.

Thank you for the welcome all of you!

And I have actually been lurking here for awhile, so I have discovered the heavyweights of the forum. I was of course rather intimidated by all of the wise minds here but I figured I'd join if only to increase my own knowledge of worldly stuff.

I'm actually quite looking forward to the debate between Bermas and Gravy on Hardfire. It should be rather informative at least, and hopefully Bermas doesn't get stuck in his usual ways of "keep-calling-the-other-guy-a-liar" tactic (can that really be called a tactic though?) As I said earlier, I'd Lurve to see an actual real debate. Hopefully it WILL be an actual debate.

What? I'm an optomist. :D

-eryn