How Dylan Avery could become a decent film-maker

[orphia nay]

If Dylan Avery really wants to make it in movies, he should do a 'True Confessions of a Conspiracy Nutjob' movie.

Part 1: How I started JAQing off.

Part 2: How I realised I could make a name for myself by pissing on graves.

Part 3: How my head got so big I needed a wide-screen tv to do justice to myself and I started inventing 'big-screen release' stories.

Part 4: How the love of notoriety obscured the shame of my 'do-overs'.

Part 5: Interviews with ex-Loosers: What were our wake-up calls?

Part 6: Thanks for all your help, Mark Roberts, the ninjas and ScrewLooseChange - you were right and I was a dick.


He could then be someone the mainstream media would actually talk about, and the public would actually pay to see his movie.

[The Doc]

Haha nice :D

I'd buy it :)

Dylan Avery: God's Way Of Promoting Abortion

[JAStewart]

Dylan Avery & O.J. Simpson:

Loose Change - If Bush did it.

[orphia nay]

Part 7: Legend in my own lunchbox: The internet is not as big in the real world as I thought.

Part 8: How the CTist's friend Paranoia turned on me and I started seeing FBI agents everywhere.

Part 9: To the families of victims whom I led up the garden path: I'm sorry. Truly. The perpetrators of the crimes suicided in the planes on that day, and there's no way I can now make them suffer for causing you such grievous loss. I lied, I gave you false hope, and I profited from your grief. I sincerely apologise.

[T.A.M.]

Key Goals:

1. Learn how to tell a story visually.
2. Write, or have written for him a good script.
3. Learn about the craft.

There is a good start.

TAM

[NickUK]

Part 7: Legend in my own lunchbox: The internet is not as big in the real world as I thought.

Haha! That's so true :)

[60hzxtl]

The subtitle could be:

Boxcutters - Sharper than Dylan, Korey, and Jason Together!

[gumboot]

Key Goals:

1. Learn how to tell a story visually.
2. Write, or have written for him a good script.
3. Learn about the craft.

There is a good start.


I'm not sure he has much of a chance, to be honest.

A successful film is defined, more than anything else, by the strength of the empathy bond between the characters and the audience. If you relate to the characters, you will generally like the film.

Through his 9/11 escapades Dylan has demonstrated one pretty clear fact. He has about as much empathy as a sack full of bricks.

-Gumboot

[Foolmewunz]

Kidnap Martin Scoresese and keep him in the basement?

[Brainster]

7. Apply again to a decent film school and learn how to edit out the endless scenes of me and my buddies walking/riding the subway/trying to figure out how to get into our hotel rooms.

[bonavada]

A successful film is defined, more than anything else, by the strength of the empathy bond between the characters and the audience.

with all due respect i think a successful film is defined by box-office takings.

when was the last time you met someone in the street (ala avery and co) giving away dvd's of the latest blockbuster?

BV

[R.Mackey]

Quite frankly, the only good movie I can imagine Dylan Avery creating would be titled: "Five Years Undercover: An Inside Look at the 9/11 Conspiracy Movement -- Those Who Profit, Those Who Follow, and Those Who are Just Plain Nuts."

He'd also have to show talent that so far has yet to surface.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Pardalis]

Maybe "Dylan Avery" will eventually replace "Alan Smithee".

[T.A.M.]

Gumboot:

I agree that the liking for and empathy for the protagonist is likely the most important factor, but that said, if the story line is boring, how much I can relate to the good guy, or like him, doesnt mean squat..IMO.

Bonavada:

I agree with your comment, that in terms of success, the bottom line is the bottom line. Perhaps my suggestions are more appropriate for what would make him a GOOD filmaker...lol

TAM

[gumboot]

with all due respect i think a successful film is defined by box-office takings.


Yes and how do you get good box-office takings? By having characters audiences relate to.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

I agree that the liking for and empathy for the protagonist is likely the most important factor, but that said, if the story line is boring, how much I can relate to the good guy, or like him, doesnt mean squat..IMO.


I think you'll find that character empathy has a bigger influence on what you think of the story than you realise. :)

Remember "story" is a combination of plot and character. A lot of films with average plots do well because of empathy for characters. But films with great plots and poor characters usually only make it as a low-success cult film (if at all).

-Gumboot

[The Demon's Head]

Dylan Avery has a great knack for fiction.

[steve s]

Yes and how do you get good box-office takings?

'splosions. Lots of 'splosions. And the abundant use of the graduated tobacco filter.

Steve S.

[T.A.M.]

I think you'll find that character empathy has a bigger influence on what you think of the story than you realise. :)

Remember "story" is a combination of plot and character. A lot of films with average plots do well because of empathy for characters. But films with great plots and poor characters usually only make it as a low-success cult film (if at all).

-Gumboot

Point taken. Other factors such as charisma of the star, chemistry between protagonist and "love interest", account for the empathy though. I think Plot is at a disadvantage.

DERAIL:
You are right though. So many times I have watched a movie, and said,

"That was a great story. I could have been sensational with the right cast, or more likeable characters."

I found Aeon Flux Like this. I love the concept, and the story, but despite Charlize Theron, there was little to empathize with. the entire rest of the cast/characters were weak/one demensional.

TAM

[gumboot]

I found Aeon Flux Like this. I love the concept, and the story, but despite Charlize Theron, there was little to empathize with. the entire rest of the cast/characters were weak/one demensional.


And the easiest way to gain audience empathy is to cast some sexy young thing who they all love and adore. Hence why those folks get paid $20 million for a film. It was once said that if you had Mel Gibson in your film that automatically added $100 million to your domestic box office takings (of course that might have changed since his little Jew episode!).

-Gumboot

[Brainster]

Point taken. Other factors such as charisma of the star, chemistry between protagonist and "love interest", account for the empathy though. I think Plot is at a disadvantage.

DERAIL:
You are right though. So many times I have watched a movie, and said,

"That was a great story. I could have been sensational with the right cast, or more likeable characters."

I was much more into plot when I was younger, now I see the value of characterization. To give a simple example, about 15 years or so ago I went to see the baseball movie, Eight Men Out about the Black Sox scandal. Now understand, I'm a baseball history nut, and love the book on which EMO was based. But I got about halfway through the movie and walked out, because I didn't like any of the characters. Oddly enough a few months later I was reading an old article by a baseball historian on baseball books that would make great films, and he commented that Eight Men Out might make a fine film, but it might not, because there were no sympathetic characters.

BTW, a lot of folks love that movie, I'm apparently in the minority among baseball fans.

[Albaholic]

Maybe "Dylan Avery" will eventually replace "Alan Smithee".
ROFL

As a filmmaker, I fully support that idea.

[T.A.M.]

I was much more into plot when I was younger, now I see the value of characterization. To give a simple example, about 15 years or so ago I went to see the baseball movie, Eight Men Out about the Black Sox scandal. Now understand, I'm a baseball history nut, and love the book on which EMO was based. But I got about halfway through the movie and walked out, because I didn't like any of the characters. Oddly enough a few months later I was reading an old article by a baseball historian on baseball books that would make great films, and he commented that Eight Men Out might make a fine film, but it might not, because there were no sympathetic characters.

BTW, a lot of folks love that movie, I'm apparently in the minority among baseball fans.

Before this thread gets moved to an entertainment section, let me just say that I, myself, feel character is the most important aspect of a movie, for me to personally enjoy it, but it is not enough...for me. Great character, shaity plot, not good enough. Great Plot, Shaity Character, not good enough.

But I would take a Great character with decent plot, over great plot, decent character any day.

TAM

[jhunter1163]

I think the story of me meeting my wife on the Net on 9/11 is a great one. We're such pedestrian characters though, tough to build much of a movie around us. Casting is easy though; I look remarkably like Bill Nye the Science Guy and she looks like Valerie Harper.

ETA: She made me say that about her.

[Dog Town]

Boxcutters The Movie - Sharper than Dylan, Korey, and Jason Together!

Markyx...if you ever do another LC short, please use this as it's title.

DT

[B][I] mine[I]

[60hzxtl]

Markyx...if you ever do another LC short, please use this as it's title.

DT

[B][I] mine[I]


Take it away Markyx - it's your's with my compliments!

[orphia nay]

Films with characters we don't necessarily love can still be respected and popular, such as Taxi Driver, or even Borat.

Now, don't think I'm comparing Dylan's work to those films for a moment, but hear me out.

Key Goals:

1. Learn how to tell a story visually.
2. Write, or have written for him a good script.
3. Learn about the craft.

There is a good start.

TAM

Good points. Also, along the lines of Brainster's comment, Dylan basically needs to be accepted into and complete film school.

However, he now has a seedy past that I think needs to be acknowledged but renounced at the same time. One of the first things writers/storytellers learn is to talk about what you know - to speak from experience, and to speak from the heart. Also, let's face it, he's got a pretty wild story to tell.

Film school could take a while, but in the meantime (putting myself in his shoes (urk:boggled:) he needs to strike now while the iron is lukewarm in general, and his net infamy is burgeoning.

I'd be amazed to see him get a theatrical release for 'Nutjob Confessions/Boxcutters', but mainstream media attention and DVD sales could be impressive. Still, stranger things have happened (e.g. Blair Witch).

[/attempted rerail]

[beachnut]

Mr Avery would have to ask better questions to be a better film guy!

In LC videos Mr Dyloon Avery asks immature questions. He asks shallow questions. He also had a lot of uninformed questions. Let me not leave out Avery's callow and insensitive questions. What else can we call them with out calling them lies?

What if he could ask mature, deep, informed, sensitive, very sophisticated questions. His film would then be the truth and explain the very complicated systems associated with the simple throat cutting terrorist who surprised us until flight 93 fought back and became heros for all but Mr. Dolton9/11 Avery insensitive self!

He will never be a good film maker until he makes good with those heroes of 9/11. So Mr. Avery, you have failed. Real truth does not sell to the truthers. Avery sells snake oil and he is the new fraud, not at the front door, on the internet. His internet store is selling us out. Thanks for being the great fraud you are Mr A very disrespectful guy.

Please excuse my sp errors! Dylan?

[Bell]

Timothy Hines promised us a theatrical release of his version of the War of the Worlds. He also promised us his leading actor Anthony Piana was the next Al Pacino, and the SFX would be in par with Star Trek or whutever. Hines is also some kind of CT nutter, believing Paramount and evil Holywood were out to get him, and make every trouble to stop his movie.

Whaddaya know? His movie never made it to the theatres, but was a straight to DVD movie. Piana was not the next Pacino. And the SFX? You guessed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.G._Wells'_The_War_of_the_Worlds_(2005_film)

In conclusion... the change of LC:FC hitting the theatres? Zero, zippo, nill, non-excistant...

[Triterope]

I don't think Dylan Avery really wants to be a filmmaker. He seems to have no interest in filmmaking beyond the minimum necessary to indulge his ego, play with his computer, and hang out with his buddies. He's far more interested in arguing conspiracy points than he is in learning about filmmaking, and all his LC re-dos and amateurish home videos seem to have taught him nothing. I bet if he ever did get into film school, he'd flunk out. His devotion to the craft, and his overall work ethic, are dubious.

[orphia nay]

From the LCFC: $20 million thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=72169):


Thing is, if I was a producer investing even $1million, I'd make him entirely re-work the documentary so that it was about the "Truth Movement" rather than advancing anything it says. I'd tell Dylan that he'd have to spin his own story as "my journey into the heart of the Truth Movement" and I'd get him to dump Bermas and probably Rowe as well. I wouldn't make him speak out against the movement but I'd insist on his appearing non-commital and as neutral as possible. Actually, I'd probably make him say something like: "For a long time I was a part of this movement, now I'm not so sure and so I'm withdrawing from it to tell its story. I still have an open mind, though, I hope you do. Consider the things the people in this documentary are saying and make your own minds up. These are questions that deserve thinking about."

If he did that, then the documentary isn't making any allegations and so the producers would be protected from lawsuits.

Anybody want to take a guess as to whether Avery would change his film like this for a paycheck and the chance of a Hollywood break?

Paranoid fringe culture can only take him so far...

Supporting evidence: Dylan's "we were just kids, there are lots of mistakes in Loose Change" statement in the Hardfire debate.

I'm sure I read something Gravy posted in the last few days summing up to Avery how Avery's walls are closing in, but I can't find it.

Avery would do a lot for the truth by not claiming to know The Truth.

[rebel]

Dylan is a good film maker. That's why LC is the most downloaded internet video ever and why this forum feels the need to obsessively mass debate over his film and his every utterance.

[LashL]

Dylan is a good film maker. That's why LC is the most downloaded internet video ever and why this forum feels the need to obsessively mass debate over his film and his every utterance.

:dl:


You didn't get a single fact correct in that post, dylan rebel. Try again.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hrm not here http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp&t=a&c=0&l=
not here either http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp&t=a&c=0&l=&p=2
not on page three http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp&t=a&c=0&l=&p=3
nope, not yet http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp&t=a&c=0&l=&p=4
can't make youtube's top five pages http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp&t=a&c=0&l=&p=5

Well, it is #92 on googles top 100 http://video.google.com/videoranking


eta: talk about a waste of my 4000th post *mutter*

[notheist]

One Word

PORN

[T.A.M.]

Dylan is a good film maker. That's why LC is the most downloaded internet video ever and why this forum feels the need to obsessively mass debate over his film and his every utterance.

kind of like saying I am a great filmaker if I am lucky enough to be the person who stumbles onto a great story with a gullible audience. I would class him as someone who was in the right place at the right time. His merits as a "good filmaker" have yet to be proven. Only time will tell.

However, your sworn allegence to him is duely noted, Rebel.

TAM:)

[Quad4_72]

Dylan is a good film maker. That's why LC is the most downloaded internet video ever and why this forum feels the need to obsessively mass debate over his film and his every utterance.

Go to loosechangeguide.com and then tell me if you still think he is a good filmmaker. If you still do, seek professional help.

[T.A.M.]

wasnt that video of the guy doing various dances also the #1 downloaded video for a long time. I think Paris Hiltons Sex tape probably ranks up there...LOL

What a crock

TAM

[Quad4_72]

Youtubes top 100 is far from representation of good movies. Anyone asserting otherwise is crazy.

[Horatius]

One Word

PORN

Game, set , match.

:)

[orphia nay]

One Word

PORN

When I read that earlier, I assumed that you meant porn was more popular.

But could it mean Dylan should make porn?

[JimBenArm]

When I read that earlier, I assumed that you meant porn was more popular.

But could it mean Dylan should make porn?

Only if he's behind the camera. Like about 2 miles behind.

[maccy]

The thing is, all that Dylan has managed to do so far is edit a bunch of clips, website screencaps and graphics together; and to add a soundtrack, a narration and some text captions. Real filmakers have don't make a collage out of already existing material. They have to compose their film, usually to tell a story, by working with camera crews and art directors and actors (or interviewees, if its a documentary) and lighting and sound and many others. They have to oversee the edit to make the finished product effective. Dylan has no experience or training in any of this - and so far has shown no natural aptitude for it (the epic "look a us getting on a subway train" ground zero footage on Google Video is painful).

Michael Moore is far better at making polemical documentaries than Dylan Avery, and has made a lot of money for Hollywood doing it, but I doubt that anyone is offering him a fictional film.

If Dylan sees Loose Change as a way into directing dramatic fiction (and most successful films are dramas - Moore is a big exception, here) then I think he will be sorely disappointed.

Oh, and his ability to finish projects on schedule is looking pretty suspect, too.

[orphia nay]

You make some really good points, maccy, as usual.

I think Dylan should stick to documentaries, and the 9/11 subject for the time being, as he has found a niche, despite the fact that he has basically plagiarised his way into it.

He could plagiarise himself, by showing video of his appearances and travels that he has already recorded.

I suspect that he would prefer to keep the "big bad gubmint" angle that has served Michael Moore and "Press for Truth" so well, and if he's going for the notoriety, if not the dollars, he should.

I believe that doing a Do-Over to End all his Do-Overs would give him the angle that would increase the interest in his next film, especially from non-truthers, in that making it more personal by detailing his dilemmas over the last couple of years, as I outlined in the OP would be a way of giving the film "heart", in my opinion, no matter how nefarious that sounds.

But whether he could meet his deadline for LCFC is the question no matter what he puts in it.

[maccy]

There's a vindictiveness and arrogance to Dylan that will prevent from adding "heart" to his project, I think. The most annoying thing about Loose Change is the whole punk kid, "are we supposed to believe this?" tone in Dylan's narration.

When confronted with things he and his associates have said in the past, Dylan is evasive rather than apologetic and prefers to attack the questioner. His attempt to deal with questions about donations to 911 charities from LC:FC by accusing the makers of United 93 and World Trade Center of donating nothing, shows both a lack or tact and empathy. It also suggests he isn't very bright - and therefore incapable of seeing the value of faking some empathy and human feeling.

I also doubt that his ego would let him get a professional to do his narration.

Honestly, I think that all three members of LTW would be a liability to any production of distribution company who did a deal with them. If a deal is ever announce then I think there would be some value in sending copies of "Loose Change Creators Speak" to the companies involved.

Again, as a fantasy executive, if Dylan pitched to me and convinced me that there's a market in 911 Conspiracy I'd be tempted to get a trusted documentary maker to make a completely new film for me. I'd probably aim it at TV - all the usual suspects would be happy to be interviewed. Even if Dylan and co refused to cooperate, you could still use footage of them from Democracy Now and Hardfire. I imagine you could use clips from Loose Change under the same fair use principals as it uses for all those news clips. The Truthers aren't especially loyal to Loose Change - they'll go for anything that gives them attention.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Dylan doesn;t have anything to offer Hollywood.

[orphia nay]

Is it just me, or did Dylan start to show more vindictiveness and arrogance only when he had to defend the errors in LC:FC?

Judging from his appearance on Hardfire, he has stepped back a long way from that stance.

Lately he has veered towards 9/11 Conspiracy Fantasy Lite, I think. He's shown a great deal of respect for the Jersey Girls and 9/11 Press for Truth.

Even if he doesn't renounce Twoofism, in his next movie he could show his Truth journey, and, as I said, "he could plagiarise himself, by showing video of his appearances and travels that he has already recorded".

He's better off making a movie about the twoof movement rather than endorsing any aspect of the TM - that way he doesn't have to adopt a stance (thermite / star wars beam weapon / planes or no planes etc) and risk losing any of his followers.

But I would know he's really thinking he's been a complete gimboid. ;) :D