Gravy. Gentleman and hero

[chillzero]

OK, I have finally composed myself after watching a few Ground Zero clips.

Until recently I had a mental image of Ground Zero as a quiet place of reflection, where people come to pay their respects to the lives lost there, regardless of their beliefs about the day itself. I'm not American, and I didn't lose anybody that day, or since then in the war. I have no personal connection to the events of 911, other than as a global citizen. I would like to visit Ground Zero one day, just to try and get my head around the size of the place, and what the area there is like (I've never been in a city other than London and Edinburgh - no real comparison, I'm told).

I watched Gravy deal with the CTists, and then I wept watching Paul Isaac Jr try to talk to them. I completely agree with Mr Isaac - that is not the place to raise debate and argue with people about what happened. How disrespectful.

If I was at Ground Zero, and a fire fighter overheard me .... let's say ... humming to myself, and asked me to stop because he found that disrespectful, I would stop immediately, and apologise. Who the hell do they think they are to start an arguement with this guy?

I was highly impressed with how Gravy stood respectfully aside, unless asked for information, or provoked by the CTists. I am absolutely appalled at these other idiots who stand in front of people who were there and tell them they are wrong. I am outraged that they would even consider intruding on the grief of these people, or the thoughts of people like myself who would go to pay respects.

There were terrible news stories a few months back about people invading the funerals of soldiers to protest the war. This is just as despicable. There are times and places.

Gravy, I wanted to raise this thread to acknowledge your efforts. I respect the time you have put into getting all this information, and I applaud your approach in fighting the ignorance (in all forms of the word) of these morons. You deserve a medal for being the one who works so hard on defending the memories of those who died.

I also wanted to find out if there is anything practical us mere mortals can do to assist? Do you have a paypal account for contributions toward funding your travel, your research, your website, anything? Are there things that the rest of us can help you document or research? I think you should let us know if we can help you fight the good fight.

I am hugely impressed by what you do, and inspired. I feel quite useless, however because I wouldn't know where to start.

[Gravy]

Thank you very much, chill. I'm occasionally a gentleman at Ground Zero, and sometimes I'm a pit bull (in fact I grew up with bulldogs), but hero is a word that needs to be used carefully in that context because so many real heroes died there.

So I appreciate the sentiment, but there's nothing heroic about anything I do. I'm just a guy who's pissed off at people who lie about 9/11, who absolve the terrorists of blame, and who make spurious accusations.

No, I don't plan to accept money for my expenses. There are many 9/11-related charities where that would be better spent. In fact, since your username is so much like "shill," I'm afraid I must dissolve our association. :(

:D

[chillzero]

Gravy,
I meant no offense, but I understand what you mean about the word 'hero'. I see the fight against ignorance as heroic too, in the manner you are tackling it. I wish to take nothing away from the fallen and surviving heroes of that day.

I don't think you should dismiss what you do as 'just' anything, though. You have an impact. You have guts, and you have respect.

Keep up the good work. You have my moral support, anyway. I wish there were no need for men like you, but sadly, that's how the world is.

I hope to shake your hand some day.

[T.A.M.]

I would second the title of this thread.

I have watched ALOT of the GZ videos, and I think to most rational, sane people, it is quite clear who the real gentleman down there is...Gravy. Does he get in the face of the CTers when they start spueing their claims, you bet, and i would to. If these guys are gonna shout out their false accusations, and mock and disrespect the site of 3000 murders, then by god, then someone has got to be there to keep them in check. Gravy does that...as best he can.

It infuriates me to hear people like Lyte and S4S claim that Mark tries to stop "patriots" from exercising their rights. These ignorant, obnoxious 20 somethings with their axe to grind against authority are the furthest thing I could imagine from PATRIOTS. They would love to see their country come down in a bloody revolution if they thought they could be a part of it...from behind the safety of a computer.

My only fear, is the fatigue that must be taking its toll on Mark. He has hinted in a few of his posts that the trips to GZ may be coming to an end, and if noone is there to replace him, I cringe to think the unchecked crap the morons will spue down there in the months and years to come. Knowing what little I do of Mark, through his words and actions, he will fight tooth and nail to the bitter end to get the REAL TRUTH out their, but one man can only do so much, for so long. Maybe by then another NYC JREFer will pick up the torch and carry on...who knows.

TAM

[jhunter1163]

I live in the USA, and my life was touched by 9/11, both positively (I met my wife that day) and negatively (I lost a close friend in the North Tower).

I would just like to echo Chill's thoughts. Gravy is fighting the good fight against woo for my friend Alicia, and for me, and for all of those whose lives were touched by the horror of that day. He's an irresistible force for the REAL truth of 9/11, and I'm ever grateful for that.

Gravy, if you wouldn't mind designating a 9/11 charity you feel worthy, I've got $50 I'd like to donate in your name, and I imagine there may be others here who feel that way. Just say the word.

[HyJinX]

I concur with the sentiments of this post. Today was my first post at JREF. I came here largely due to what I've heard about Gravy (mostly from TAM at conspiracy smashers blog).

Below is my first post at JREF, which is located on the new member welcome board.


Hello,

My name is Marcus and I just wanted to introduce myself. My main reason for coming here is to witness GRAVY and others dismantle the "members" of the 9/11 troof movement. I've ghosted around for the past few days ... reading, laughing and learning ...and so far this site lives up to its reputation. I feel honored and privileged to be welcome here. I promise to try to keep my wits about me when interacting with troofers...though oftentimes it's nearly impossible. I live and work in Madison, Wisconsin and feel very lucky to be a part of such a dynamic culture of aware citizens. Being a member here is icing on the cake.

Warmest regards,
Marcus

P.S. - So far, watching GRAVY at work has been most inspiring.

[T.A.M.]

Welcome Hyjinx:

Glad to see you come over here. The Blogs are great, don't get me wrong, but my favorite hang out, in terms of debate and banter, has to be JREF.

TAM

[A W Smith]

I would hope to meet him some day and shake his hand. I have been to GZ several times since the attack after the clean up.. Living in New Jersey all my 51 years the towers and those people in them had special meaning to me. I am only about 50 mins from GZ yet it took me a full year and a half just to acknowledge in my heart that they were gone. In my many travels up the turnpikes western extension there were times I could barely look eastward to the void. I shared their magnificence in person with my son when they existed. his grandfather a port authority engineer. him having to witness the destruction of something so great that his own grandfather had a small part in its creation was like a loss of innocence.
http://web.archive.org/web/20021021160118/http://designmelt.com/images/smith1.jpg

[JAStewart]

I too wish to shake the hand of Mark Roberts.

Thanks for all the work Mark, you are a TRUE patriot.

[60hzxtl]

Gravy's my hero - I've watched him work.

[yodaluver28]

This thread was a great idea and I also want to send thanks and support to Gravy for all the hard work and compassion that he's put into fighting these irrational and utterly disrespectful people.

I didn't lose anyone that day either but I don't think you have to in order to understand the, for lack of a better term, holiness of Ground Zero and the respect that the victims and their families deserve.

[njslim]

I would hope to meet him some day and shake his hand. I have been to GZ several times since the attack after the clean up.. Living in New Jersey all my 51 years the towers and those people in them had special meaning to me. I am only about 50 mins from GZ yet it took me a full year and a half just to acknowledge in my heart that they were gone. In my many travels up the turnpikes western extension there were times I could barely look eastward to the void. I shared their magnificence in person with my son when they existed. his grandfather a port authority engineer. him having to witness the destruction of something so great that his own grandfather had a small part in its creation was like a loss of innocence.


Live only few miles west of GZ site - witnessed buildings burn and collapse
on 9/11. From where I live could see the Towers from break in the trees
on ridge where I live Remember coming up hill at sunset to see the towers
shimmering with rainbow of colors - red, yellow, orange, purple as last rays
of sun reflected off the windows. When in NY visit site, go to "TEN HOUSE"
(quarters of ENG 10/LAD 10) to see bronze sculpture on wall of firehouse
depicting 9 11.

[ConspiRaider]

Thanks chillzero, for this thread, and for the very eloquent post on the activities of Big Mark.

I got to his stuff through the 911myths site, a reference site I use in my own pitched battle (message boards only) attempting to dissuade people from being misled so maliciously by the selfish conspiracy theorists.

Mark is absolutely terrific in his actions. And sticking it to Alex Jones, using nothing but logic and a passion for truth? That's really awesome.

I didn't know anyone who died on that day at Ground Zero. But 4 months before it was hit, my then-wife and I were on top of the South Tower, snapping one tourist picture after another of the tremendous view that vantage point afforded us. It's creepy for us to review those pictures today - especially the ones of the big radio tower on WTC 1.

Mark, if you could kindly name an organization or charity to which us ACTUAL truth lovers could donate, I'd be most grateful.

[firecoins]

Maybe Mark Roberts/Gravy would like to go out for a beer if you you live in NYC area. I would love to sit down and have anti 9/11 denial bar hopping session. We can probably get Abby Scott too.

[Mercutio]

We need a new word.

Before 9/11, there were "heroes" on sports teams, in comic books, in grade-school essays, and who knows how many other places...

On 9/11, there were people who ran up staircases while hundreds of others ran down. There were people who helped others flee when they could have run away. There were people who died trying to save people they had never met. "Hero", as we used it before, was suddenly too weak a word. We could re-define it, maybe, and say (as I heard some say) "we will never again call baseball players heroes...", or we could say that what we witnessed on 9/11 went beyond the words we normally use.

After 9/11... well, I have heard sportscasters use the term "hero" to refer to athletes again. Honestly, it made me cringe a bit.

So... we need a new word. One way or another.

Either the people we saw on 9/11 are the real heroes, and we need a new word for people like Gravy...

or...

Gravy is indeed a hero...but we need a new word for what we saw on 9/11. Something way beyond "heroic".

:boxedin:

[moonbat]

Kudos, Gravy.

[60hzxtl]

real heroes, and we need a new word for people like Gravy...



Grinder? Hoagy? Po'boy? Submarine?

Hero is judged best in retrospect, not spur of the moment.

That said - Gravy's got the right stuff. Proud to say I've met him.

[Karl Johannes]

what is the deal with ground zero recently, i have been there a couple of times but there werent any loosers, is this like a big problem, is it only on special days that they come out to mock the dead?

[Quad4_72]

what is the deal with ground zero recently, i have been there a couple of times but there werent any loosers, is this like a big problem, is it only on special days that they come out to mock the dead?
Saturdays I believe.

[Firestone]

I just read this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2170462&postcount=16), and simply would like to express admiration for Gravy (and Kate) for confronting those (I'm not so good is swearing, especially in English) "guys" !

[hubbub2]

What's really cool , while watching Gravy dismantle the CTers, is knowing that Gravy only has to use three brain cells to do it (two to process information, one to reload). Any more brain cells than that and it's more like an aircraft carrier taking on a rubber ducky!

Keep fighting the good fight, Gravy!!

[firecoins]

What's really cool , while watching Gravy dismantle the CTers, is knowing that Gravy only has to use three brain cells to do it (two to process information, one to reload). Any more brain cells than that and it's more like an aircraft carrier taking on a rubber ducky!

Keep fighting the good fight, Gravy!!
currently they are fixing the Intrepid up in Bayonne, NJ's dry dock. The CTers don't have a rubber ducky to stand on.

[Puffinmuncher]

All respect to you man. I've watched quite a few of the videos of you with these people and I'm honestly in awe of how you can hold yourself together in these situations. I'm very unlikely ever to be in New York to buy you a beer, but if it counts, you can certainly have a virtual one on me. [Can't find a pint of beer smiley]

Keep up the good work and don't let them get to you.

[Gravy]

Thanks, Puffin, and welcome to the forums! Be sure to check out the other subforums. Folks in the conspiracy section can sometimes forget there's a world out there that doesn't resemble an asylum.

There will be some more enlightening video from Ground Zero coming soon.

Now can we please let this thread die? Please?

[Wizard]

The only video I have seen of Gravy at ground zero involved him calling someone an &&&hole. The man he abused then asked him what brought building 7 down and Gravy's pregnant pause gave us the answer.

[DavidJames]

The only video I have seen of Gravy at ground zero involved him calling someone an &&&hole. The man he abused then asked him what brought building 7 down and Gravy's pregnant pause gave us the answer.
Welcome to the forum.

What was the answer?
Who is "us"?
Who's foot are you on?

[Brainache]

The only video I have seen of Gravy at ground zero involved him calling someone an &&&hole. The man he abused then asked him what brought building 7 down and Gravy's pregnant pause gave us the answer.

Well there's your problem! Hearing answers when no one is speaking is a recognised psychiatric condition. I'd have that looked at if I were you.

[Wizard]

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks.


What was the answer?


He doesn't have a clue what brought it down.

Who is "us"?

The people watching the video.


Who's foot are you on?


I assume you are callng me a sock puppet. I am not. I have lurked for a while after seeing this forum on the LC boards. I finally decided to post.

This is a very warm welcome.

[Wizard]

Well there's your problem! Hearing answers when no one is speaking is a recognised psychiatric condition. I'd have that looked at if I were you.

I think a Body Language Expert may disagree unless you think they are also as insane.

[60hzxtl]

The only video I have seen of Gravy at ground zero involved him calling someone an &&&hole. The man he abused then asked him what brought building 7 down and Gravy's pregnant pause gave us the answer.

I've seen Gravy in action. Complete with statistics, citations, and facts.

Then I've heard the ct'ers talk about:

Fires that were almost out

Fires that weren't really that hot.

Buildings falling at the speed of Gravity.

Thermite explosions.

Steel spirited away

Falling in their own footprint (If they were wearing snow shoes maybe!)

and other assorted bilge water.

Gravy's got the foot notes, the end notes, and the bibliography.

CTers have "feelings"

[Brainache]

I think a Body Language Expert may disagree unless you think they are also as insane.

OK so it wasn't the pause.

I haven't seen this particular clip of Gravy in action. The only one I've seen is him dealing with Alex Jones. Maybe you should watch that one to get a good look at some interesting body language.

[maccy]

The only video I have seen of Gravy at ground zero involved him calling someone an &&&hole. The man he abused then asked him what brought building 7 down and Gravy's pregnant pause gave us the answer.

From previous threads:

I appreciate your concerns, but keep in mind that the Ground Zero video is edited to give the impression you got. It doesn't show me giving the facts that refute the CT arguments. It doesn't show their inablilty to name a single thing I was wrong about when I asked them, including the camera crew. It doesn't show the reason that I was mad at the guy in the beginning. Don't worry about my debate style or my command of the material. :)

By the way, I only cursed at the guy in the beginning because, after I had corrected everything he had just said to the public, he brought up "NORAD's stand down," he refused to listen to my correction about that, and then he said he was proud of what he was saying. That really set me off. I'm surprised that people thought I was keeping my cool. I don't call people a-holes every day!

The cameraman and the two guys with the purple banner were from TruthMove.org, which only appears to have those three members. Another thing they edited out is them saying that I didn't know what I was talking about and me asking each of them to name a single thing I said that was wrong. Their reply: "I don't think we need to engage in that kind of thing." Right. No need to have evidence when you claim that someone is lying. I spend my entire time there correcting them, but no denier that I've encountered at Ground Zero has been able to tell me a single thing that I've gotten wrong.

They also chose not to include in the video my asking each truther (including those three) what NIST gave as the reasons for the tower collapses. Of course none of them have any idea, although their main argument at Ground Zero is that the towers couldn't have fallen the way they did without explosives.

This is as basic as it gets. If you're going to vehemently claim that a version of events is false, it helps to know what that version is. Not a single denier I've encountered at Ground Zero has ever known what the official version is!

If you want to know what Gravy's thoughts on WTC7 are he's written a paper about it, it tells you a bit more than your interpretation of a pause on a video edited by CTists.

http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.doc
or
http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.pdf

[Wizard]

Ok Maccy please accept my apologies. I did not know who edited the video. Although, it must be said, he did stop when asked that question and did not provide an explanation. He seemed to be just telling the guy that he should trust the experts.

[maccy]

OK so it wasn't the pause.

I haven't seen this particular clip of Gravy in action. The only one I've seen is him dealing with Alex Jones. Maybe you should watch that one to get a good look at some interesting body language.

It's here: http://911blogger.com/node/4688

And there's a thread about it here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=69482

Anybody who hasn't already seen Mark Roberts aka Gravy debating with Alex Jones can see it here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8820426888499996890#26m30s

Again, this is a CTist video (this time by the very people who brought you Loose Change)

[maccy]

Ok Maccy please accept my apologies. I did not know who edited the video. Although, it must be said, he did stop when asked that question and did not provide an explanation. He seemed to be just telling the guy that he should trust the experts.

No worries, apology accepted and kudos for making it.

I can't answer for him, but maybe he'd just run out of patience?

[Albaholic]

Gravy,

I was wondering if you got my PM from a few days back... when I tried sending you an e-mail it told me that your inbox was too full.

Could you please AIM me at Albaholic or e-mail me at otvertchenkoATgmailDOTcom (otvertchenko@gmail.com)? I wanted to discuss that anti-LC movie idea you've mentioned a while back in our e-mail exchanges.

-Dima

[TheChadd]

Hmmm wow, just watched gravy v alex jones
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8820426888499996890#28m33s

Is Alex Jones some sort of 'shock jock'? We have conservative radio presenters over here in Australia (one of them oddly enough with the name Alan Jones) who use the same sort of weak sarcastic insults when confronted with an argument they cannot simply silence. He claims Gravy has the style of a lawyer, well personally I'd say that's something to be proud of when confronted with someone who has the style of a sly politician.

Love your work Mark... I did notice alot of young wankers in the 'truth movement' on that video, just wanted to say that not all us university kids are such dickheads.

[Wizard]

Just watched the Gravy and Alex Jones video. Yes, Gravy clearly won the debate and Jones wasn't prepared and was being evasive. My question would be, why didn't the video makers edit this video to make Gravy look bad?

[NobbyNobbs]

Grinder? Hoagy? Po'boy? Submarine?

Hero is judged best in retrospect, not spur of the moment.

That said - Gravy's got the right stuff. Proud to say I've met him.

As a Philadelphian, I have to say....it's spelled "hoagie". And that's really the only acceptable name for it.

Ok Maccy please accept my apologies. I did not know who edited the video. Although, it must be said, he did stop when asked that question and did not provide an explanation. He seemed to be just telling the guy that he should trust the experts.

I would think that trusting the experts is a hell of a lot better than trusting the novices, wouldn't you?

Try this. Given the choice, would you rather trust the experts who say that electricity will shock/kill you, or would you rather just stick your fingers in the outlet and find out yourself?

[TheChadd]

Just watched the Gravy and Alex Jones video. Yes, Gravy clearly won the debate and Jones wasn't prepared and was being evasive. My question would be, why didn't the video makers edit this video to make Gravy look bad?

I noticed edits throughout - Chances are that was their attempt to make him look bad. They're so into their movement perhaps that they think Alex Jones's ignorance/high 5's etc were actually something good to show.

[maccy]

I noticed edits throughout - Chances are that was their attempt to make him look bad. They're so into their movement perhaps that they think Alex Jones's ignorance/high 5's etc were actually something good to show.

There are hours and hours of video from that day - look at the title of the Gravy v Alex Jones part - its from a 50 minute segment called part 3b of 5.

In this case, they don't seem to have much of a concept of brevity or editing for effect. They also thought that this confrontation between Alex Jones and some soldiers was worth including:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7009170953577304119#1m40s

This is from part 3c of 5 and this section is 1hr 45 minutes!

[TheChadd]

Hahahaha I love the scene of these white-bred teens entering the subway train in slow-mo while that protest rap is going on lol.

[Gravy]

Edit: never mind, it's all been covered above.

albaholic, some of us were talking about doing a fact-based video as a counter to the denier videos out there, but that project never went anywhere. It's a lot of work to do things right, to interview actual experts, etc.!

[Gravy]

Just watched the Gravy and Alex Jones video. Yes, Gravy clearly won the debate and Jones wasn't prepared and was being evasive. My question would be, why didn't the video makers edit this video to make Gravy look bad?
That's also baffling to me (although they did edit some classic moments). They seem to think that anything involving a group of them and cameras is automatically flattering or supportive of their cause. They even left in the Jason Bermas "The firemen ARE paid off" statement that he's had to (ahem) "apologize" for recently! Bottom line: these people are clueless. I wish I had grasped that fact before that encounter on 9/9. I was holding way back with Alex Jones, because none of the cameras there were on "my" side and I felt that if I made him look too foolish, none of that footage would have been aired.

[rikzilla]

That's also baffling to me (although they did edit some classic moments). They seem to think that anything involving a group of them and cameras is automatically flattering or supportive of their cause. They even left in the Jason Bermas "The firemen ARE paid off" statement that he's had to (ahem) "apologize" for recently! Bottom line: these people are clueless. I wish I had grasped that fact before that encounter on 9/9. I was holding way back with Alex Jones, because none of the cameras there were on "my" side and I felt that if I made him look too foolish, none of that footage would have been aired.

Yeah I was wondering why they didn't edit out the part where Bermas slanders the firefighters...but then again the cameraman seems rather interested in what's going on inside Abby's shirt.

Way to go Abby! ;)

-z

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8820426888499996890#26m30s @40:35

[Wizard]

That's also baffling to me (although they did edit some classic moments). They seem to think that anything involving a group of them and cameras is automatically flattering or supportive of their cause. They even left in the Jason Bermas "The firemen ARE paid off" statement that he's had to (ahem) "apologize" for recently! Bottom line: these people are clueless. I wish I had grasped that fact before that encounter on 9/9. I was holding way back with Alex Jones, because none of the cameras there were on "my" side and I felt that if I made him look too foolish, none of that footage would have been aired.

Do you listen to his show? You should ring him up as he wouldn't even know who you were and you would reach his alleged 8 million listeners.

[Miss Anthrope]

Not much I can say to add, except that I too really appreciate what Gravy is doing and have been cheering him on as I lurk.

[Gravy]

Do you listen to his show? You should ring him up as he wouldn't even know who you were and you would reach his alleged 8 million listeners.Lord no! A few minutes with Alex Jones at Ground Zero is enough for a lifetime. The guy is self-debunking. If his listeners choose to take him seriously and not to check the facts behind his paranoid rants, that's their problem. AJ is a full-time conspiracy theory promoter. Correcting him would be more than a full time job, because all he has to do is throw wild claims around, without substantiating them.

It only takes a fraction of a second to fling poo at a wall. It takes much longer to clean it up.

[Wizard]

The poo analogy is marvellous:D

[negativ]

I too have a great respect for Gravy - his encyclopedic knowledge of so many names and obscure details (the very things the CT people love to latch onto) is mind-blowing, as is his ability to stifle what must at times be a strong urge to force-feed the truthers their own posterboards and banners.

If I'm ever in NYC, I'll be the idiot who wordlessly follows Gravy around carrying a boom box playing the opening few bars of the theme from "Shaft". A guy like Gravy needs some Walking-Around-Theme-Music.

[firecoins]

when is Gravy next going to Ground Zero. I would love to join Gravy for a weekend day. I am in Chinatown on Saturdays anyway.

[uk_dave]

ha! gravy is overated

Just because someone goes to GZ with an encyclopedic knowledge of the TRUTH of the 9/11 attacks and is willing to encounter the woowoos with their black shirts and alex jones as their 'fuhrer'...

"OK guys we're leaving now"

....does not mean Gravy is worthy of respect or adoration...... just money and kudos

[chillzero]

If I'm ever in NYC, I'll be the idiot who wordlessly follows Gravy around carrying a boom box playing the opening few bars of the theme from "Shaft". A guy like Gravy needs some Walking-Around-Theme-Music.

Love it.
:D

[chipmunk stew]

Yeah I was wondering why they didn't edit out the part where Bermas slanders the firefighters...but then again the cameraman seems rather interested in what's going on inside Abby's shirt.

Way to go Abby! ;)

-z

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8820426888499996890#26m30s @40:35
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8820426888499996890#40m35s
(The "#00m00s" part is a time signature)
:w2:

[chipmunk stew]

ha! gravy is overated

Just because someone goes to GZ with an encyclopedic knowledge of the TRUTH of the 9/11 attacks and is willing to encounter the woowoos with their black shirts and alex jones as their 'fuhrer'...

"OK guys we're leaving now"

....does not mean Gravy is worthy of respect or adoration...... just money and kudos
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/Gravy.jpg