Adventures in Auto Mechanics

[Checkmite]

Being that this forum has the word "technology", I figured this would be the appropriate place for a dedicated thread for all you motorheads out there (I know, I know...associating some of these machines with the word "technology" doesn't seem right).

In any case, this very day I replaced both front struts on my '90 Lumina. Oddly, they both decided to go out at the exact same time about a week ago, so my car has been more of a boat as I've sailed the choppy streets of my city to and from work, with my front end bouncing up and down like the bow of canoe on rough water. So I finally replaced them.

Well, I didn't exactly replace the struts. This suspension system is something I haven't encountered before; the strut and the steering knuckle are one single unit. You don't replace the struts themselves - instead, you unbolt the top of the strut towers (under the hood) and switch out these "strut cartridges", which look like the sort of pistons you would mount on a screen door...only stronger and harder to compress, of course. In any case, the job was a relative breeze.

Use this thread as a place to tell of your favorite adventures, or maybe let off some steam if a job isn't going right... :)

[NWilner]

It is beneficial to repair one's own devices.

However, the time is fast approaching when the labor to repair cars like yours is worth more than the car. Cars are becoming disposable, in other words, at least for major repairs.

A 90 Lumina is worth, what, $900 assuming no engine or transmission problems (sorry if you love the car). So how much do you put into it to keep it going? If it needs a trans for $1500 do you do it or junk it?

[arcticpenguin]

My air conditioning doesn't work, but I probably won't be able to get it fixed. It's a 1990 model, so it has genuine R-12 Freon. The stuff that kills the ozone. Very few places work on those any more. It would be expensive to have the compressor and condensor replaced with parts suitable for the new refrigerants.

[fishbob]

A 90 Lumina is worth, what, $900 assuming no engine or transmission problems (sorry if you love the car). So how much do you put into it to keep it going? If it needs a trans for $1500 do you do it or junk it? The problem is that replacement cost is $20,000 - $40,000. If your repair keeps your beater car running another 2 or 3 months, you save a big pot of money on payments and insurance. On the other hand, you are buying reliability (supposedly), comfort, and maybe safety with a newer car, and you have to decide how much that is worth to you.

Is economics science?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by fishbob
The problem is that replacement cost is $20,000 - $40,000. If your repair keeps your beater car running another 2 or 3 months, you save a big pot of money on payments and insurance. On the other hand, you are buying reliability (supposedly), comfort, and maybe safety with a newer car, and you have to decide how much that is worth to you.

Is economics science?
You wouldn't have to replace it with a new car. You could replace it with a newer used car, one that is more up-to-date and reliable for less than $5K.

[fishbob]

Would you buy a $5,000 min-van (assuming his Lumina is a mini-van, but may be a sedan)? I bet it would be hard to find one that is not chocky jam full of half-chewed tootsie rolls, moldy Cheerios, gum wrappers, juice box straws, tiny little Lego pieces, and wierd sticky stains. Ick.

Gotta factor this into the economics of vehicle purchasing.

[Badger]

Originally posted by fishbob
Would you buy a $5,000 min-van (assuming his Lumina is a mini-van, but may be a sedan)? I bet it would be hard to find one that is not chocky jam full of half-chewed tootsie rolls, moldy Cheerios, gum wrappers, juice box straws, tiny little Lego pieces, and wierd sticky stains. Ick.

Gotta factor this into the economics of vehicle purchasing.

Saaaayyyyy, you didn't happen to buy a used '87 Dodge Caravan SE, tan, fake wood paneling, V6, did you? Sorry, I meant to vacuum it.... By the way, it smelled that way when we got it. Honest.

[Badger]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

You wouldn't have to replace it with a new car. You could replace it with a newer used car, one that is more up-to-date and reliable for less than $5K.

That $5k buys a new motor, tranny, struts and set of tires, and voila. Good to go another 100,000 miles!

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Badger


That $5k buys a new motor, tranny, struts and set of tires, and voila. Good to go another 100,000 miles!
Maybe, but sticking with the old model you may not have such innovations as air bags, anti-lock brakes, etc.

Coincidentally, my 13-year-old car has 100,000 miles on it and in addition to the situation with the air conditioner I need a new set of tires.

[fishbob]

I just dumped $600 into my 1989 Honda Civic hatchback with 225K miles on it. I am sure it is worth less than $2000, but my kid is driving it, and he is somewhat of a nitwit around items of value.

So when he wrecks the car, I will only be out $2000. Economics is simple, really.

[Badger]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Maybe, but sticking with the old model you may not have such innovations as air bags, anti-lock brakes, etc.



Bah! Those are for wimps! So is power steering! (I own a '73 Landcruiser that I'm rebuilding. No power anything, but I drive it around in the summer, topless. The landcruiser, I mean. Not me. It scares people. Me topless I mean. Not the landcruiser)

Seriously, though, I did get a new car recently. It's a 2001 Echo. It's nice to have something where everything works, and there are no rust holes in it! But there's no way I can do much more than change the oil. I can't even get to the plugs.

The boy is going to inherit my old car, '83 Mazda GLC, in 24 days. He, also, is the type who could break a bowling ball, or damage an anvil. So when he does bend the Mazda, it will be of little consequence to me, AND he will find it fairly easy to repair. That may sound harsh but at least he doesn't have to spend money on a car in addition to paying huge insurance.

[Checkmite]

I'll admit - if I needed to drop a couple thousand for a new transmission, I'd probably just buy another beater. But I have no problem with dropping $30 every couple of months for new strut (cartridges!), a muffler, new plugs, maybe a reconditioned alternator - the work doesn't inconvenience me or my wallet.

It's a sedan, by the way - V6.

[_Q_]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Being that this forum has the word "technology", I figured this would be the appropriate place for a dedicated thread for all you motorheads out there (I know, I know...associating some of these machines with the word "technology" doesn't seem right).
.
.
.
Use this thread as a place to tell of your favorite adventures, or maybe let off some steam if a job isn't going right... :)
Joshua,

Good idea for a thread! I've thought once or twice of starting one just to discuss what a good (or bad) exercise auto repair can be in "good thinking", but never got up the gumption.

One from not too far back involved an external oil leak on my '90 Mazda B2200 pickup. I'd poked around at it some, but never nailed it down, and finally decided to take it in to the garage to let the professionals have a look at it. I figured that they could clean off the engine, get it up on the lift, and really figure out where the leak was.

When I picked up the truck later in the day, they told me that there were two definite leaks. One was at the o-ring where the distributor goes on to the head (simple and cheap fix). The other was from behind the timing belt cover (a regular "timing belt job" including new cam and crank seals). The total estimate was a little over $400, if I recall correctly. I wanted to, and expected to, pay them for their inspection work, but they wouldn't take any. These are folks that we've worked with for years, and we trust them. They've also been plenty willing to give me free advice when I'm doing stuff myself, and they know that if I think something is beyond me, the work will come to them.

They were right about the distributor o-ring seal - it had a real "compression set" to it, and looked just plain flat on the outside.

The cam and crank seals, however, were another story - no obvious leaks. While I was in there, I replaced them, because they're cheap and had a significant number of miles on them, but they weren't leaking.

After doing this work, there was still a significant leak, all the way on the other end of the engine. It was at the fuel pump (mechanical, driven off the cam), and replacement of the pump, gaskets, and plastic insulating block was cheap indeed.

The shop
1) found a leak that would have been cheap and simple to fix
2) "found" a leak that wasn't there, but would have cost a fair bit
3) missed another "real" leak that would also have been a modest repair.

I think that the oil that they thought was coming from cam or crank seals was really just oil from the bad distributor o-ring working its way down the front of the engine. They probably see leaky cam and crank seals all the time, and jumped to that (often correct) conclusion.

Perversely, I think that the oil leaking from the fuel pump was assumed to be oil coming from the cam and/or crank seals, then working its way back along the side of the engine. Since they "knew" those were bad, they didn't inspect further.

Now, I realize that the mechanics can't indulge in endless investigation, because it simply wouldn't be cost-effective. In this particular case, though, I think they dropped the ball in several ways, starting off by not simply doing a good cleaning and inspection (and I wasn't expecting the diagnosis to be free, anyway).


_Q_

[CSX2]

Originally posted by _Q_

Good idea for a thread! I've thought once or twice of starting one just to discuss what a good (or bad) exercise auto repair can be in "good thinking", but never got up the gumption.
_Q_

If auto repair is a questionable exercise in "good thinking" then the money and time I spend in boat repair doesn't stand a chance!

[_Q_]

Originally posted by CSX2


If auto repair is a questionable exercise in "good thinking" then the money and time I spend in boat repair doesn't stand a chance!

When I used the words "good thinking", what I was thinking of was how automobile repair can really be a good (or bad) exercise in problem solving and rational thought - starting from symptoms, hypothesizing about possible and probable causes, performing tests to confirm or refute those hypotheses, modifying those hypotheses, and so on.

As noted, absolutely thorough analysis isn't always the most cost-effective way to solve every problem - if a problem has been narrowed down to one of two possible $20 problems, it's cheaper to fix them both than to spend $100 determining which of the $20 problems is there. Sometimes, the nature of the components dictates that at some point, "substitute known good part" is the only option. However, it's not unusual to see someone throw parts and labor (and more parts and labor) at a problem because they're just plain not thinking right, and not all problems are engaged well by that sort of approach.

(I never finished Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, but I started it a couple of times, and some of it stuck with me.)

As far as boats are concerned, well, you know the old saw about a boat being a hole in the water into which you pour money... ;)


_Q_

[Bearguin]

Originally posted by _Q_
As far as boats are concerned, well, you know the old saw about a boat being a hole in the water into which you pour money... ;)


I've got one of those.

As far as truck repairs, I changed the fluid in both my diffs and dropped the tranny pan for a new filter, fluid and installed a drain plug.

The drain plug in the tranny is leaking and the rear diff is leaking.

So much for saving money doing it myself.......