School Prayer debate

[cj.23]

Just an observation really. Whenever I read about American religion I encounter the "God was removed from school's in 1963: Bring back School Prayer" groups.

Yet does prayer in school actually lead to theistic belief? I attended an English state school, where religious observation, in the form of a school assembly and "corporate act of worship" is actually a legal requirement. I prayed every morning, afternoon and lunchtime with my class mates.

I also studied Religious Education (mandatory to 16), and continued with it to postgrad level.

Yet all these things did was render me an avowed atheist. It was many many years after I left school before I returned to my religion...

So if school prayer and religious education are in fact desirable from the viewpoint of proselytising, why is the UK so overwhelmingly secular compared with the US? I have asked this question repeatedly on Christian forums, yet never recieved a sensible answer. Any thoughts? England is a "Christian Nation", with an Establsihed Church. Does education in religion really serve the purposes of evangelism? Or is quite the contrary true?

Apologies if this has been discussed before, I'm still finding my ay round the forum and have not managed to master the search function yet. This is my first non-introduction post, so be kind! :)

cj x

[clarsct]

If you repeat something often enough, you will begin to believe it. This is why they have 'Our Fathers' 'Hail Marys' and the various hymns.

Besides, it violates the seperation of Church and State. I realize this annoys some religious folks to no end, but it's a basic and fundamental tenet of our(US) system of Government.

[blutoski]

Yet does prayer in school actually lead to theistic belief?

Who knows? But that's not the grounds for complaint. It's about the government favouring one religion over others.

When you were praying in your examples, did you have the opportunity to lead a Muslim prayer?

In the case of schools, the concern is that it will be an opportunity for the government to mandate a specific religion, and expose all kids to that one in particular.

As an example, even though I have always been an atheist, I was raised as a Catholic. When I was in grade six, I had a teacher who exercised her right to lead prayers (I'm Canadian - this was the '70s and it was legal but discretionary). My prayer ends with: "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever, amen." The teacher explained to the class that I was praying incorrectly, and that the genuflection was not part of a proper prayer. She went on to teach us several Lutheran prayers, so we could do away with the incorrect ones we had learned at home.

Now, this was a real learning experience for my Muslim classmates, who were forbidden to use 'incorrect' prayers. Did they object? No, of course not: they came from third world countries like Iran where questioning the state official's religious rulings led to death. They learned to survive by letting the powerful authority have his day. I learned the same thing, as a kid.

But over the years, the injustice of this situation became self-evident, and the practice has been stopped in most democracies.

[cj.23]

If you repeat something often enough, you will begin to believe it. This is why they have 'Our Fathers' 'Hail Marys' and the various hymns.

Yet the evidence of a highly religiously educated (and in theory observant) nation suggests that in fact the absolute contrary is true: over sixty years of mandatory school prayer had produced an extremely secular society in England & Wales?

And we are, despite having an Established Church as part of the State, far more secular than the USA with the legal barrier between Church and State?

There is something fascinating occuring here.

cj x

[blutoski]

I should add that the successful lawsuits that were effective in getting prayer out of school were all involving students who were religious - just minority religions. Specifically, the biggest case was a Quaker girl.

In my friend's case, she and her parents launched a lawsuit in the '70s here in Canada, because she is Mennonite, and the Catholic teacher in her class was making the prayer mandatory. The problem is that her variety of Mennonite Brethren believe that prayer is a private event - not a public demonstration of devotion for, or in front of, others. Consequently, the teacher was forcing her - with the force of law - to do something that was sinful according to her own faith. The lawsuit did not see court, because by the time it had wound to the opportunity, my friend had moved to another school, the teacher had retired, and the law had been reversed anyway.

[cj.23]

Who knows? But that's not the grounds for complaint. It's about the government favouring one religion over others.

When you were praying in your examples, did you have the opportunity to lead a Muslim prayer?

In the case of schools, the concern is that it will be an opportunity for the government to mandate a specific religion, and expose all kids to that one in particular.

Yes, we have the right to opt out of Religious Education and to pursue our own faiths without harassment. Our Jewish and Islamic kids had their own prayer areas and meetings. I agree that freedom to worship or not as one wishes is a vital issue, and dislike the idea of indoctrination. I do however feel that school prayer, based on the British experience, is a failure in terms of indoctrination. I'm not asking anyone to adopt it - I'm curious as to this strange paradox.

My central question remains - why would religious groups believe that school prayer is desirable in the face of a compelling lack of evidence it actually produces a more religious society, if the uK is anything to go by?

[blutoski]

Yet the evidence of a highly religiously educated (and in theory observant) nation suggests that in fact the absolute contrary is true: over sixty years of mandatory school prayer had produced an extremely secular society in England & Wales?

And we are, despite having an Established Church as part of the State, far more secular than the USA with the legal barrier between Church and State?

There is something fascinating occuring here.

cj x

I wouldn't say "fascinating"... There is actually an argument that the reason religion has succeeded in the US is explicitly because of the historical separation of church and state.

An extreme counterexample is Russia where the Russian Orthodox Church won exclusive rights to alcohol distribution. They are essentially an arm of the government. To the ordinary public, they are part of the oppression, not a source of salvation. Competing religions are ruled 'illegal'. It's perceived as a racket.

Whereas, in the US, any preacher with a two-dollar bible can start a church, and they use familiar marketing techniques to poach membership from existing parishes, expand, compete, or fail, according to a sort of market of 'religious ideas'.

[cj.23]

I wouldn't say "fascinating"... There is actually an argument that the reason religion has succeeded in the US is explicitly because of the historical separation of church and state.

(snip)

Whereas, in the US, any preacher with a two-dollar bible can start a church, and they use familiar marketing techniques to poach membership from existing parishes, expand, compete, or fail, according to a sort of market of 'religious ideas'.

I tend to agree... exposure to higher criticism of the Bible in RE lessons and studying other World Religions acted as a powerful force on my young thoughts. I questioned...

So in the face of this apparent lack of success, why do Christian groups campiagn for it so much in the US? My guess is they are simply unaware of how school prayer has panned out in the UK?

cj x

[blutoski]

Yes, we have the right to opt out of Religious Education and to pursue our own faiths without harassment. Our Jewish and Islamic kids had their own prayer areas and meetings. I agree that freedom to worship or not as one wishes is a vital issue, and dislike the idea of indoctrination. I do however feel that school prayer, based on the British experience, is a failure in terms of indoctrination. I'm not asking anyone to adopt it - I'm curious as to this strange paradox.

My central question remains - why would religious groups believe that school prayer is desirable in the face of a compelling lack of evidence it actually produces a more religious society, if the uK is anything to go by?

Ah, now I understand your question... I don't think they believe it is indoctrinating. I think the motives are twofold:

1. It's a pushbutton issue for voter mobilization. Churches are important instruments for political action. Politician tells the priest that he'll mandate school prayer (or protect the existing situation, if school prayer is already mandatory) and the priest then goes on to tell the congregation to vote for Politician or face excommunication or expulsion from the church.

2. The situation you mention above regarding "opting out" and "segregated prayers" is not what American (or Canadian) theocrats are talking about when they advocate school prayer. They're saying they want the class to bow their heads in silence while the teacher reads the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer, reads a short passage from the King James Version, and explains to the kids why the Catholic Bible is different than the KJV (the reason: because Catholics are wrong about everything).

3. It's part of a bigger issue of taxpayer-subsidized religious training. Babysteps. Optional prayer, then mandatory prayer... bible study... mass...

What, exactly, this would look like would depend on the boundaries of the region being considered for voting. This is a point I bring up with my Mennonite friends when they advocate that the public education system should include bible study. Obviously, in a country which is majority Catholic, Mennonites wouldn't argue for a national vote on this. OK: in BC, the largest single religion appears to be Catholic still, so the voting region needs to be different.

At the end of the day, they seem to agree that it will have to go down to the school level (they used to say school district, but then the Abbotsford school district found itself in a predominantly Sikh population). Basically, they want the taxpayer to subsidize their private Mennonite schools.

[bruto]

Yes, we have the right to opt out of Religious Education and to pursue our own faiths without harassment. Our Jewish and Islamic kids had their own prayer areas and meetings. I agree that freedom to worship or not as one wishes is a vital issue, and dislike the idea of indoctrination. I do however feel that school prayer, based on the British experience, is a failure in terms of indoctrination. I'm not asking anyone to adopt it - I'm curious as to this strange paradox.

My central question remains - why would religious groups believe that school prayer is desirable in the face of a compelling lack of evidence it actually produces a more religious society, if the uK is anything to go by?

The most vocal advocates for school prayer are not otherwise noted for critical thought or intelligent evaluation of evidence, are they?

[Meadmaker]

In my opinion, the modern view of "separation of church and state" in the US has created a climate where fundamentalist belief can and will flourish.

In the US, the churches can claim persecution, and make it sound credible. Furthermore, the discussion of religion is taboo in US schools, except in highly limited circumstances. To educate anyone on the subject of religion, or on any subject related to religion, is to step into a legal minefield. It would be best just to avoid it, and almost all teachers do so.

The result is that children, all the way into adulthood, learn almost nothing about religion in schools. They end up becoming adults knowing only that Christianity is forbidden by the state. This creates a great deal of sympathy for Christianity, while making sure that no young person is actually taught anything of substance that might dissuade them from belief in Christianity.

[Foster Zygote]

One of the things that bothers me most is the claim by many religious advocates that "prayer is banned in schools". One way they mobilize their voting block is to imply that students are forbidden to pray in school. This is utter crap. If a student wants to pray before a test or before lunch or if a half dozen students want to assemble and say a prayer at the end of the school day or whatever, they are free to do that. What's illegal is for a faculty member or anyone acting as a representative of the school to lead students in any sort of "official prayer". This is done, as Blutoski pointed out, to protect individual rights from being imposed on by any one religion and to keep church and state separate for the protection of both. The U.S. religious right, however, appeals to the fear and ignorance of many by convincing them that government is attacking "their" religion. Sadly, there are those who don't see the value of protecting all individuals freedom of religion and freedom from religion. They, like Blutoski's teacher, see other beliefs as just plain wrong and they think they are doing God's work by imposing the "correct" faith on everyone. State religion sounds like a great idea to them as long as they get to pick the religion. For an enlightening shock you might want to look at these (http://christianexodus.org/) folks, who are right now (unsuccessfully, fortunately) trying to take over my own state of South Carolina.

P.S. Welcome to the forum cj.23

[cj.23]

Thanks Foster. Yes I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments here. Unfortunately a few cases where confusion has led to the persecution of individuals engaging in private prayer (in contravention of the law, which as you say in no way forbids this) have become notorious, and are used by lobbyists to suggest widespread 'persecution'.

cj x

[Kiwiwriter]

I can assure you, that having had the lowest math grades (for a student not on drugs) in the history of Stuyvesant High School (noted for four Nobel laureates), there was a lot of school prayer in my life...every time I took a math test.

However, He didn't help much. I got a 39 on the final Math Regents, which was, as I say, the lowest grade the school had seen on the test from a student who was not stoned when he faced the test. I lost 10 points alone from one question for failing to write "Q.E.D." on the problem. I didn't write "Q.E.D." because I couldn't find an answer to the problem, and gave up in despair. Little did I know that "Q.E.D." was 10 points.

When I took the test on re-test that December, I put down "Q.E.D." on everything but the toilet paper. I got a 46.

The head of the Math Department (who outranked God) tried to transfer me to Automotive High School, on the grounds that people who could not do quadratic equations were only fit to repair his Cadillac. He and his colleagues heard two words from my mother, "Lawsuit" and "newspapers" and never heard the end of it from me.

So I don't know what all the fuss is. As long as kids face algebra tests, or chemistry tests, or physics tests (or history tests for those who think that the US fought North Korea in the War of 1812), kids will be praying in school.

I got a better idea...how about kids pray at home and with their families, or in churches and temples, according to the dictates of their conscience, not according to the determination of the government? What a concept! :eye-poppi :boggled:

[Foster Zygote]

Thanks Foster. Yes I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments here. Unfortunately a few cases where confusion has led to the persecution of individuals engaging in private prayer (in contravention of the law, which as you say in no way forbids this) have become notorious, and are used by lobbyists to suggest widespread 'persecution'.

cj x

If a teacher were to tell a student "You can't do that. You can't pray in school. Stop that!" upon seeing her bow her head and fold her hands before a test then that teacher would be dead wrong and would be stepping on the rights of the student. However if one or more students stood up during class time and began praying out loud so that the teacher and all the other students had to stop what they were doing and wait the teacher would be justified in saying "You can't do that now. This is class time, please do that later". Either case would likely be seized upon by the most vocal propagandists as evidence that the big, bad government was trying to outlaw Christianity.

It's a crazy world.

[bruto]

I got a better idea...how about kids pray at home and with their families, or in churches and temples, according to the dictates of their conscience, not according to the determination of the government? What a concept! :eye-poppi :boggled:

A brilliant idea, which would work perfectly if the people advocating school prayer were honest about their motives. Unfortunately, as is so often the case where religious agendas are concerned, they are liars. They do not want to provide for their own children. They want to indoctrinate the children of others.

[SkeptiKilt]

In my opinion, the modern view of "separation of church and state" in the US has created a climate where fundamentalist belief can and will flourish.

In the US, the churches can claim persecution, and make it sound credible. Furthermore, the discussion of religion is taboo in US schools, except in highly limited circumstances. To educate anyone on the subject of religion, or on any subject related to religion, is to step into a legal minefield. It would be best just to avoid it, and almost all teachers do so.

The result is that children, all the way into adulthood, learn almost nothing about religion in schools. They end up becoming adults knowing only that Christianity is forbidden by the state. This creates a great deal of sympathy for Christianity, while making sure that no young person is actually taught anything of substance that might dissuade them from belief in Christianity.

Right you are, MM, and in addition, I think that the lack of an established religion here has led to more competition amongst the various sects for the hearts and minds of the sheeple. Looking at the percentage of believers in Europe vs. the USA, it would appear that there's an argument to be made for the free market.

[cj.23]

Right you are, MM, and in addition, I think that the lack of an established religion here has led to more competition amongst the various sects for the hearts and minds of the sheeple. Looking at the percentage of believers in Europe vs. the USA, it would appear that there's an argument to be made for the free market.

Well an argument for religion yes.

The facts are simple: School prayer has a dismal record in producing Christian belief in the UK.

So the Religious Right in the US might be better fighting for keeping prayer out of schools? :) (my point in the OP)

cj x

[Kiwiwriter]

A brilliant idea, which would work perfectly if the people advocating school prayer were honest about their motives. Unfortunately, as is so often the case where religious agendas are concerned, they are liars. They do not want to provide for their own children. They want to indoctrinate the children of others.

The advocates of prayer in school are interested only in converting all the kids to their religion. It's not about morality, it's about conversion numbers, followed by tithing and donations.

[cj.23]

The advocates of prayer in school are interested only in converting all the kids to their religion. It's not about morality, it's about conversion numbers, followed by tithing and donations.

I'm sure that is the case. I question their tactics effectiveness...

cj x

[brodski]

Well an argument for religion yes.

The facts are simple: School prayer has a dismal record in producing Christian belief in the UK.

So the Religious Right in the US might be better fighting for keeping prayer out of schools? :) (my point in the OP)

cj x

I have often had similar thoughts to you on this cj. But remember, correlation does not imply causation. In the past Brittan was much more vocally Christian, even at times when there was mandatory school prayer (indeed almost all education was religious in nature). their may be other reasons for the secularization which the Uk has seen in the past 100 years or so. the decline of Anglicanism in the UK also maps pretty closely to the decline of Brittan's place on the world stage.
When you're the most powerful nation in the world, it is very easy to think that you have "god on your side".

[ceo_esq]

Yet the evidence of a highly religiously educated (and in theory observant) nation suggests that in fact the absolute contrary is true: over sixty years of mandatory school prayer had produced an extremely secular society in England & Wales?

And we are, despite having an Established Church as part of the State, far more secular than the USA with the legal barrier between Church and State?

There's no reason to conclude from this that school prayer actually influenced the UK to become a more secular society. Perhaps in the absence of school prayer the UK would have developed into an even more secular society. Perhaps not. There are so many other potentially contributing factors.

At any rate, all of this tells us not much more than everyone (hopefully) already knew: that (pace U.S. constitutional jurisprudence) the establishment of religion per se is perfectly compatible with a high degree of religious freedom and, indeed, a secular society.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Yet the evidence of a highly religiously educated (and in theory observant) nation suggests that in fact the absolute contrary is true: over sixty years of mandatory school prayer had produced an extremely secular society in England & Wales?

And we are, despite having an Established Church as part of the State, far more secular than the USA with the legal barrier between Church and State?

There is something fascinating occuring here.



It's very simple.

England (and the rest of Europe) sent all it's crazy, nut-job religious folks over here... we're stuck with a highly religious culture because of it.

It's taking us 200 years to begin to catch up as all the inbreeding among the quackers, amish, and baptists starts to weed them out of the gene pool. And just who the heck let the mormons in? Oh yeah, that's our own home-grown whack-job religion.

[cj.23]

I have often had similar thoughts to you on this cj. But remember, correlation does not imply causation.

Quite right brodski, and everyone else who raised this point. Still, I actually wonder if it was the rapid urbanisation resultant from the industrialisation of Britain in the 19th century and break down of the Churches influence over the new communities which resulted in secularisation.

However Religious Education and a pluralistic society must have contributed in this century.

cj x

[Ladewig]

Well an argument for religion yes.

The facts are simple: School prayer has a dismal record in producing Christian belief in the UK.

So the Religious Right in the US might be better fighting for keeping prayer out of schools? :) (my point in the OP)

cj x

There are tens of millions of USAians that belive that the Grand Canyon was formed by Noah's Flood, that evolution is inherently evil and leads to amoral behavior, and that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Tens of millions of people! I think any comparison of UK religiousness with US religiousness is not going to produce rational results. The Southern Baptists have given up the idea that Hiduism is demon worship only in the last 8 years.

cj.23, I don't think you understand how out of touch with reality US fundamentalists really are.

[cj.23]

cj.23, I don't think you understand how out of touch with reality US fundamentalists really are.

Oh, that is what my wife says. She was raised a fundamentalist Christian in the USA... I have however spent the last four years working academically on the issues relating to the Religious Right. It may yet prove to be the subject of my PhD, if i can find something new of interest to look at. I can outline the history, ideals, and variant theologies, tell you the difference between dispensationalist, Reconstructionist, and pre, post and mid Trib Rapture beliefs and talk about groups from the Eagle Forum to Focus on the Family for hours, and some much more obscure figures besides. I have written on changing theologies in recent years, especially the theological crisis in these groups brought about by their political success. I have a good hundred or more books on American religion, and receive email from most of the groups mailing lists. I have spent many hundreds of happy hours debating with these folks on various Christian forums, and indeed befriended a good many despite our religious differences. Yet she still points out that living and working in a totally alien cultural environment, the UK, I can never really understand what it is like...


that evolution is inherently evil and leads to amoral behavior,

That belief still baffles me, particularly as Herbert Spencer of course advocated what has been called Social Darwinism - that is as far as i can see a form of Free Market capitalism. His phrase "survival of the fittest", and close association with Darwinian ideas surely renders him highly suspect. Yet his economic ideologies appear to be strongly supported by many of these groups?

The more I examine the various groups, the more confused I become...

cj x

[Meadmaker]

There are tens of millions of USAians that belive that the Grand Canyon was formed by Noah's Flood, that evolution is inherently evil and leads to amoral behavior, and that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Tens of millions of people! I think any comparison of UK religiousness with US religiousness is not going to produce rational results. The Southern Baptists have given up the idea that Hiduism is demon worship only in the last 8 years.

cj.23, I don't think you understand how out of touch with reality US fundamentalists really are.

So, how could they learn that they are wrong? We have practically banned discussion from the public schools. Yes, in biology class, it's ok to say that the Earth is old and that life evolved. However, if some kid raises his hand and says, "I heard that's a bunch of Satanist claptrap." a wise teacher would try to avoid the question and just say, "Well, this is the official theory, and that's what will be on the test."

Suppose instead he answered, "Religious fundamentalists have preached some ideas that are easily shown to be wrong. Today, we are going to discuss those errors." It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. At the very least, he has to tiptoe around very carefully making sure that he doesn't trip up on the intent or purpose prongs of the Lemon test. He would be a fool to actually rip into those ideas.

In the name of protecting our kids from the religious right, we've managed to insulate the religious right from criticism.

[bruto]

So, how could they learn that they are wrong? We have practically banned discussion from the public schools. Yes, in biology class, it's ok to say that the Earth is old and that life evolved. However, if some kid raises his hand and says, "I heard that's a bunch of Satanist claptrap." a wise teacher would try to avoid the question and just say, "Well, this is the official theory, and that's what will be on the test."

Suppose instead he answered, "Religious fundamentalists have preached some ideas that are easily shown to be wrong. Today, we are going to discuss those errors." It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. At the very least, he has to tiptoe around very carefully making sure that he doesn't trip up on the intent or purpose prongs of the Lemon test. He would be a fool to actually rip into those ideas.

In the name of protecting our kids from the religious right, we've managed to insulate the religious right from criticism.

There's a point there, but it assumes that all the teachers will be rational. The same rule that would allow a teacher to expound on why the biblical theories are unsound would also allow another teacher to promote those theories, wouldn't it?

[cj.23]

There's a point there, but it assumes that all the teachers will be rational. The same rule that would allow a teacher to expound on why the biblical theories are unsound would also allow another teacher to promote those theories, wouldn't it?

It seems to work for us, but we have compulsory RE and government set syllabuses. I studied Biblical Criticism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and such fun topics as Freud on religion and Nietzche's thought, and the story of Secularism and Atheism in RE. I don't think you get away with much of that in the USA.

The problem is without education, how do you make a rational choice?

cj x

[Meadmaker]

There's a point there, but it assumes that all the teachers will be rational. The same rule that would allow a teacher to expound on why the biblical theories are unsound would also allow another teacher to promote those theories, wouldn't it?

Yes, it would. Which side do you think would win?

I would like to see the US adopt practices more like the UK. There, it's working. Here, ours are failing.

[NeilC]

My personal experience of enforced prayer at school was that it made no difference to me at all. If anything it reinforced my lack of belief since it demonstrated to me first hand that religion was something you had to do because others told you to do it but not a lot more. I put my hands together, closed my eyes, repeated the words but nothing happened. I noticed other kids were too scared to do anything else but when I opened my eyes and looked around I didn't get struck down I just saw a room full of people with their eyes shut except a couple of other wags smirking back at me. So I can't get worked up over it but as a matter of principle I'd rather they didn't do it. I have no problem with readings from religious texts since I do believe in some form of moral education and there are plenty of good moral messages in most of these old books.

[cj.23]

[quote=Splossy;2188850]My personal experience of enforced prayer at school was that it made no difference to me at all. If anything it reinforced my lack of belief since it demonstrated to me first hand that religion was something you had to do because others told you to do it but not a lot more. I put my hands together, closed my eyes, repeated the words but nothing happened. I noticed other kids were too scared to do anything else but when I opened my eyes and looked around I didn't get struck down I just saw a room full of people with their eyes shut except a couple of other wags smirking back at me. /quote]


Very much my experience Splossy.

I think I can clarify my position now in two lines

* Prayer in School is an irrelevance, as it does not appear to have any indoctrinating effect (requires proper research.)

* Religious Education is a positive good from a sceptical (and mainstream Christian) position, as it allows for rational informed choice and debate.

cj x

[Ladewig]

* Prayer in School is an irrelevance, as it does not appear to have any indoctrinating effect (requires proper research.)




There is an indoctrinating effect that you may have missed. When the whole school engages in Christian prayer and a single doubter expresses his doubt in front of his classmates, he finds that said classmates sometimes try to beat the doubt out of him.

You know a great deal about USAian fundamentalists, have you considered doing some field research by travelling around the Deep South?

[cj.23]

There is an indoctrinating effect that you may have missed. When the whole school engages in Christian prayer and a single doubter expresses his doubt in front of his classmates, he finds that said classmates sometimes try to beat the doubt out of him.

You know a great deal about USAian fundamentalists, have you considered doing some field research by travelling around the Deep South?

That is an incredibly good point: I find it hard to imagine kids engaging in religiously inspired violence, but my wife assures me it would happen.

And yes, I have. My wife seems to think it a very bad idea though. She thinks they would find my Liberal Christianity far more offensive than outright atheism...

cj x

[Ladewig]

That is an incredibly good point: I find it hard to imagine kids engaging in religiously inspired violence, but my wife assures me it would happen.

And yes, I have. My wife seems to think it a very bad idea though. She thinks they would find my Liberal Christianity far more offensive than outright atheism...

cj x

Be sure to include Dayton, Tennessee on your itinerary. Even in the 21st century, a measureable percentage of that town is proud to be part of the community that convicted John Scopes of teaching evolution in 1925.

You may find it safer to travel undercover; I would suggest learning how to "dip snuff." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipping_tobacco)

[Dark Jaguar]

As a kid, I was told by certain people who should have known better that the debate was to actually outlaw the students themselves from praying at any point during school. The reality is that it just forbids the faculty from leading the students in prayer or ordering them to pray or any such thing.

Just to be clear, I would never ban the former. If some kid wants to wish herself or himself good luck by wishing to a fairy god parent then that's fine so long as it isn't disruptive. The latter I would ban without hesitation. The faculty in a government owned and operated school has no place pushing such nonsense on the kids. If it has to also be argued that yes it also pushes certain religions over other ones (and usually one specific religion), then yes I'll go with that too, but I think the argument against spreading nonsense to the kids in school should be the primary concern.

So if kids want to pray themselves, or organize their own special "prayer group" at the flagpole after school, so long as it's not sponsored by the school or disruptive then they can do so just like the LARP group should be allowed to cast "+ 5 to intellect" on themselves before every test if they so wish with the same restrictions, because I see both in the same light (except that the role playing group, at least for the most part, admit that it's all just a fantasy). But if teachers themselves want to push something like that, they better only be doing that when not in the role of a teacher, meaning after hours and off school property.

[Moon-Spinner]

As a kid, I was told by certain people who should have known better that the debate was to actually outlaw the students themselves from praying at any point during school. The reality is that it just forbids the faculty from leading the students in prayer or ordering them to pray or any such thing.

Just to be clear, I would never ban the former. If some kid wants to wish herself or himself good luck by wishing to a fairy god parent then that's fine so long as it isn't disruptive. The latter I would ban without hesitation. The faculty in a government owned and operated school has no place pushing such nonsense on the kids. If it has to also be argued that yes it also pushes certain religions over other ones (and usually one specific religion), then yes I'll go with that too, but I think the argument against spreading nonsense to the kids in school should be the primary concern.



I find myself constantly having to tell people that nobody is banning a person's right to pray in school (or anywhere else), it's just that the schools can not lead or coerce the students in prayer. I agree with everything Dark Jaguar has said concerning people's rights, but there's so much dis-information out there trying to convince people that the Dark Forces (usually the ACLU) are trying to take their religious rights away, that it feels like an uphill battle. A lot of this dis-information gets passed around through chain emails, but I also hear senators, congressmen, and other elected officials repeating the same bogus information. I still see emails trying to say that Madalyn Murray O’Hair is out there fighting to take away their rights, even though she's been dead for quite a few years.

[Mephisto]

Yes, we have the right to opt out of Religious Education and to pursue our own faiths without harassment. Our Jewish and Islamic kids had their own prayer areas and meetings. I agree that freedom to worship or not as one wishes is a vital issue, and dislike the idea of indoctrination. I do however feel that school prayer, based on the British experience, is a failure in terms of indoctrination. I'm not asking anyone to adopt it - I'm curious as to this strange paradox.

My central question remains - why would religious groups believe that school prayer is desirable in the face of a compelling lack of evidence it actually produces a more religious society, if the uK is anything to go by?

I applaud your curiousity and believe that you're truly pointing at a sociological anomaly. It could also be that you're underestimating the vehemence of some religous-based organizations in America. From abortion clinic bombers to White supremicists groups there are "religious" people (usually fundie X-tians) who would use the State sponsored religion, and their idiotic interpretations of the Bible to influence young impressionable Americans into violence.

Frankly, I'd also bet that Americans in large portions of the U.S. lack the sophistication of the average European. ;)

[supercorgi]

* Religious Education is a positive good from a sceptical (and mainstream Christian) position, as it allows for rational informed choice and debate.

I would agree with you as long as it was a comparative religions course which studied many religions and the similarities and differences between them and looked at religion as a cultural phenomenon. I would absolutely not support a comparative religion course whose purpose was to show how much better religion X is than all those other false religions.

I had a high school course in comparative religions that went a long way towards making me an atheist (and loving anthropology). When I was exposed to all the variations of belief in the world, it struck me how arrogant it was for any one religion to declare that their religion was the One True Faith (tm). We also studied how the Bible was put together, the variations in versions and translations, and the books left out. The fact that Christians couldn't even agree on the basics of their faith, showed me that Christianity didn't make any more sense than any other religion.

[slingblade]

Very much my experience Splossy.

I think I can clarify my position now in two lines

* Prayer in School is an irrelevance, as it does not appear to have any indoctrinating effect (requires proper research.)

Ah, but you're engaging in my favorite pastime: anecdotal evidence. ;)
My experience was a bit different, but I didn't learn everything from it I might have until years later. We had a Jewish boy in class, in the early grades, who would not say the Lord's Prayer with us every morning. And every morning he got put in the corner or stood in front of the class as punishment. Enforced school prayer had been banned in 1963, but this was 1967 or '68, and we were still doing it in my school.

The boy's parents finally had enough and came to the school. We stopped praying soon after.

* Religious Education is a positive good from a sceptical (and mainstream Christian) position, as it allows for rational informed choice and debate.

cj x

Anecdotal again, but I did grow up in "The South," albeit not the Deep South. It was part of my religious instruction, and of some of my peers, that to learn about other religions was sinful and wrong. We would be exposed to Satanic (or at least Satanically inspired) ideas, and it could harm us.

I took a World Religions class in my junior year of high school, and I remember feeling quite rebellious for doing so. And I remember feeling or realizing at some point that the religions we studied were not so very different from my own. I couldn't figure out what the big deal was. Then. But it did indeed start me to thinking things like "How can my religion be the 'One True Religion,' when everyone else thinks theirs is? How do I know I'm right and all of them, millions of them, are all wrong? What if none of us are right?"

Satanic, indeed. ;)

[Ladewig]

There are tens of millions believe that ... evolution is inherently evil and leads to amoral behavior



That belief still baffles me


I another thread, I stumbled across this site:
http://www.kent-hovind.com/quotes/conspiracy.htm
Could it be that people accept evolution because [....] They know that evolution is the only philosophy that can be used to justify their political agenda of:
i. Communism
ii. Racism
iii. Abortion
iv. Nazism
v. Socialism
vi. Gay rights
vii. Women's liberation
viii. Extreme environmentalism
ix. Euthanasia
x. Pornography
xi. Humanism
xii. New Age Movement
Source: Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6 - a transcript of Kent Hovind's early sermons circa 1996. http://home1.gte.net/dmadh/hovind6.htm [no longer available]

I am at a loss to describe any single individual or group whose agenda encompasses all 12 of those items.

Of course, it may not be fair to quote Kent Hovind as an example given his beliefs (9/11 conspiracies, a Roman Catholic/Muslim/Satanist conspiracy, and chemtrails) make him sound insane in the brain.

[bruto]

Religious education is a pretty good idea, but school prayer is about as relevant to religious education as child molesting is to sex education.

[Upchurch]

I am at a loss to describe any single individual or group whose agenda encompasses all 12 of those items.
Sounded like a challenge to me, but when you're right, you're right.

The funniest part is that Jesus would have probably been philosophically in sync with 3 - 5 of the items on that list, had he been presented with them.


eta: although, to be fair, Hovind probably didn't mean to imply that all 12 items pertained to one group. Or, at least, he wouldn't if he were a rational man.

[Ladewig]

eta: although, to be fair, Hovind probably didn't mean to imply that all 12 items pertained to one group. Or, at least, he wouldn't if he were a rational man.

After reading your post, I can see how it could go either way.
On the other hand he says "the political agenda of" instead of "the political agendas of."
To me, that means a single political agenda.


_________________________
ETA: [slapping forehead] Of course there is one group that advocates all of those philosophies: The Evolutionists.

[Upchurch]

After reading your post, I can see how it could go either way.
On the other hand he says "the political agenda of" instead of "the political agendas of."
To me, that means a single political agenda.
Oh, sure. But consider the source. The man embraces willfull ignorance of the basic rules under which the universe works. It isn't so much of a stretch to think he doesn't care much for the basic rules under which English works. ;)

ETA: [slapping forehead] Of course there is one group that advocates all of those philosophies: The Evolutionists.
......okay, I can kinda see how most of that would fit individually, but how does one advocate both communism/socialism and nazism? And I'm not sure how the New Age Movement is an Evilutionist agenda.

[cj.23]

Religious education is a pretty good idea, but school prayer is about as relevant to religious education as child molesting is to sex education.

While I was in no way arguing for both, but rather asking two related but different questions, an excellent point critiquing my comments - pithy and accurate. Nominated.

cj x

[bruto]

While I was in no way arguing for both, but rather asking two related but different questions, an excellent point critiquing my comments - pithy and accurate. Nominated.

cj xThanks, but just to clarify, I was not specifically criticizing your post, which is why I posted it without quotation.

[plumjam]

I am at a loss to describe any single individual or group whose agenda encompasses all 12 of those items.



Come and meet the mother-in-law

[Safe-Keeper]

Kids in Norwegian elementary schools are required to sing a short psalm before lunch. Our minister of education recently tried to abolish it, and took massive flak from the religious who in part said it was part of Norwegian tradition, and part said it was a non-issue and that he was wasting his time and should be focusing on more important things - as usual with these matters, the people screaming 'non-issue' were in many cases also the people to scream the loudest in favor of retaining the psalm.

I say throw organized prayer out of schools completely. If the kids in the class adhere to a certain religion that requires psalms or prayers at set times, they'll take care of them themselves. If they don't, it's immoral to make them.

Put it this way: It's considered unsound to make kids lie in every other circumstance, but when it comes to religion suddenly they have to pretend to believe in and follow a certain god?

Suppose instead he answered, "Religious fundamentalists have preached some ideas that are easily shown to be wrong. Today, we are going to discuss those errors." It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. At the very least, he has to tiptoe around very carefully making sure that he doesn't trip up on the intent or purpose prongs of the Lemon test. He would be a fool to actually rip into those ideas.Last year's biology teacher did just that. When we went through evolution, he went through several typical Creationist arguments, such as that evolution is 'only' a theory. I do not see what's wrong with that.

On the other hand, I had a social studies teacher last year who kept injecting her own views into nearly everything she taught us about. It was annoying as Hell.